The great debate

Tooie's a shit game but I fucking enjoy it anyway for some reason.

I like this game more than it's good

You're better than Tooie but still just mediocre when doing a minimum effort run, and agony when you do a 100% run.

why did games back in the day like these have so much soul compared to the garbage released in the current day?

> thanks for clearing that puzzle dude, here do this minigame you've already done 10 times

tooie all but refutes the existence of kazooie and as such, isn't canon, nor is it moral.

Both Tooie and DK64 sucks.
Kazooie was perfect.

Both of them are good for their own reason.

Me personally, the first game becomes extremely simple after going through Tooie and learning how bigger worlds with interconnection is cool as fuck

How the fuck did you not pass spiral mountain
HOW

Tooie's a chore to play, the genesis of modern open world design.

Click Clock Wood> your favorite level

For me, it's Tooie. Tighter controls, huge overworld, abilities, actual ice key. Fuck Grunty Industries though

industries was cool

I swear you fags who think Kazooie is better are the exact same type of idiots who get peer pressured into thinking trash modern art is good, because you are worried that others might think you are uncultured if you like good things.

Tooie is literally everything good at Kazooie, improved and most of the negatives, fixed. You can't find a single legitimate flaw that Tooie has, that Kazooie isn't worse at. There is no debate, there are only contrarians who think that disliking good things is a substitute for having a personality, and normal people.

"It doesn't capture the magic of the original" fuck off with that garbage, worthless opinion. No one thinks you're cultured. Its just as fucking stupid as people who think SMG1 is better than SMG2. Its literally the same game, improved on in every possible aspect.

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You just described why Tooie sucks though.

Mumbo's Mountain > Mayhem Temple
Treasure Trove Cove > Jolly Roger's Lagoon
Clanker's Cavern > Glitter Gulch Mine
Bubblegloop Swamp > Terrydactyland
Frezeezy Peak/Gobi's Valley > Hailfire Peaks
Mad Monster Mansion > Witchyworld
Rusty Bucket Bay > Grunty Industries
Click Clock Wood > Cloud Cuckooland

BANJO KAZOOIE >>>>>>>>> BANJO TOOIE

Kazooie but only because I can't emulate Tooie :(

You guys seriously need to stop pretending that someone liking one over the other means the other one is the absolute worst trash ever created.

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Tooie is objectively poorly designed

Its one step away from being Donkey Kong 64

Or maybe I just like smaller games you pretentious fuck. Tooie's annoyingly long and tedious. Kazooie straddles the line of annoyance for me. Same reason DK64 is shit.

More =/= Better.

tooie is dogshit

I prefer both.

Its more magical if anything. The problem is that the world’s are way too big for what little they offer. It’s a massive chore to play and because there’s no real direction to the levels, the pacing is pretty horrible. The only exception to that rule I can think of is WitchyWorld, but that only benefits from the thing being a massive circle anyways. Don’t even get me started on the mistake that was Jolly Roger’s. I appreciated the personality the world(s) had but you can sit here and tell me they were well designed for the type of game Tooie was trying to be.

This is my favorite but it is also the worst. It becomes a blast to play when you know all of the stupid glitches.

So is the Banjo-Kazooie Gameboy game worth playing?

Tooie forces you to backtrack though, unlike Kazooie, which allows you to gather 100% of the collectibles the first time you enter any given world. With the exception of Gobi Desert and Freezy Peaks, which are unlocked at the same time, effectively.
And I feel Kazooie took its story more seriously than Tooie did.

This. Tooie fell into the meme at the time that bigger was always better.

Tooie is superior I agree there is no debate.

Kazooie brainlet.

Kazooie brainlet.

Kazooie brainlet.

Kazooie brainlet.

Kazooie brainlet.

Kazooie brainlet.

Tooie wasn't designed for small brains. Perhaps Conker is more to your liking. It's another Rareware 3D platformer but more linear, has epic Family Guy potty humor for smaller brains, and look! You don't even have to think critically for some puzzles! You just stand on a context sensitive pad and press a button to do a thing!

I can understand the whole too big aspect being tiring at points, but you guys act like exploring the map wasn't fun. I remember many of the levels having an interesting part in it, or just paths that you get rewarded for checking out, even in nooks and cranies.

But I don't get the backtracking argument. You literally find tunnels that connect from one level to another, and most of the time, when you find that tunnel, you collected the skill necessary to get all the pieces in that leve, and all the notes, which makes the world feel more connected.

I love both either way, but I don't get people acting like Tooie is on the level of clunky of Donkey Kong 64.

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Same, I believe Kazooie is the most well made out of the 3. Kazooie > DK64 > Tooie

But DK64 is the one I just like the most

There is no use debating with Kazooie brainlets. These people are the same ones who shitpost about Metroid Prime being a Halo wannabe and that only 2D Metroid can be good. Ergo, their brains are small and can't handle a vast open world. Everything has to be instant gratification because they are zoomers with intense ADD. On the flipside, the irony is that these same zoomers on Yea Forums praise other open world games like Mario Söydessy and Brap of the Wild for being objectively worse just because their brains are stimulated every 5 seconds with a Korok seed or Power Moon.

Why are you like this?

>you start with all the moves from the previous games so all the new skills are extremely situational gimmicks that you barely use
>playing as mumbo is literally busywork, just take mumbo to a pad, press a button and go back to the skull to switch back to banjo
>shoehorned first person shooter mini games
>worlds are so big that they have to resort to warp pads for fast travel instead of good level design
>more transformations sound good in theory but being a lot more limited in movement than banjo make it even more painful to traverse the levels

Look user. I appreciated how connected they felt and the personality it all had, but like I said, the feeling of it all was just off. There wasn’t any rhyme or reason to how things were placed so there was never a real flow for me, again, outside of WitchyWorld. Fun as it was the first time discovering each world the welcome wore off quick.

Banjo/Kazooie themselves were definitely more realized though. That was a great evolution over the first game. And I appreciate overworlds so the hub stuff was great. Rare just failed to crank up to 11 like they wanted. In comparison as tedious as DK64 was, there was a better balance in their worlds between exploration and pacing, switching Kong’s be damned.

Who are you quoting?

I like both games but holy fuck the Tooiefags in these threads are absolutely insufferable.

Why do you fuckers have to have these threads when I’m going to sleep?

Anyway, replaying Tooie for the first time in like a decade in celebration. Honestly, I don’t get people’s complaints about the backtracking and world size.

Tooie’s worlds are honestly not that big, especially by modern standards. As for the backtracking, you can pretty much complete 99% of the first three levels in a single run, which is basically everything but a single Jiggy in all cases. Jolly Roger you can get everything but 3 Jiggies and a Page. If you do this, you have enough Jiggies to open every single level except Cauldron Keep before you reach Terrydactyland. You are also able to get every note and move in the game without backtracking.

Needless to say, you’re not supposed to play Tooie like Kazooie and try to 100% everything in a single go. It makes the game tedious if you try that. You’re supposed to pop in and out at your own leisure, until you hit Cloud Cookooland, and have all the moves in the game. Then you can try 100%. With how interconnected the worlds are, the game is a lot more fun this way. It’s not an Autism friendly game, you’re supposed to slow down and get distracted by the flow of the game as you explore. The moment you start getting tired of a level, pop out and go somewhere else. That’s how Tooie is meant to be played.

Even though I love both, Tooie, not even close.

>finding notes which was the bread and butter of kazzoie and served as both a constant incentive to explore and even guide the player through the level were severely dumbed down to the point they might as well have been completely removed
>gruntilda stopped rhyming

I dunno. I find the idea of giving you a reason to explore a previous level that you did prior is a nice idea to not just have him go in, and never come back ever like in Kazooie (except for Cheato cheats in the second one, but that's not really normal play for most people).
Backtracking isn't something inherently bad I feel. I do agree that I enjoyed the hub world in Kazooie better though, I liked the idea of having to find the paintings that would open the door to a certain world, instead of having centralized area where you can unlock all of them. It's not that big of a leap for me, but I did think the overworld in Tooie wasn't as creative as in Kazooie.

>you start with all the moves from the previous games so all the new skills are extremely situational gimmicks that you barely use
I actually didn’t mind this. You really couldn’t do much beyond it but at least we got some nice things like separating the duo and egg aiming
>playing as mumbo is literally busywork, just take mumbo to a pad, press a button and go back to the skull to switch back to banjo
Agreed. I think it was just done to pad time and an excuse to introduce Wumba. And waiting for Mumbo to actually do the thing he needs to do is aneurysm inducing
>shoehorned first person shooter mini games
Thought it was fun, but I wish you could swap the axis between aiming and swimming separately.
>worlds are so big that they have to resort to warp pads for fast travel instead of good level design
Agreed. My thoughts are fleshed out elsewhere in this thread
>more transformations sound good in theory but being a lot more limited in movement than banjo make it even more painful to traverse the levels
I didn’t think they were nearly as fun in Tooie but there’s some great designs and ideas.

>canary "rubberband" mary

kazooie is for kids with autism. tooie is for kids with adhd.

Isn't it the other way around? You can get rewarded more quickly in Kazooie since each world is way smaller, and you can 100% each one on the first visit.

THIS SO FUCKING MUCH

When will morons start equating more content with being automatically better? Kazooie is a tight experience, Tooie is a bloated mess and represents everything that is wrong with sequels in general.

I get he argument, but popping in and out of levels in these types of games isn’t always a great idea. Part of the frustration is coming back, having to redo a setup, and trying to recall where exactly you need to go. Honestly? The game would have benefitted from a level map on the pause. That alone would ease a lot of the annoyance.

Theres no click clock wood in tooie so its worse by default.

>nice things
>egg aiming
That shit was absolutely fucking atrocious. I don't play FPS games so I don't know if it's a common thing or not, but the way the crosshair is controlled in Tooie makes me dread the shooting segments.

Yup exactly what happened to me and I really liked Kazooie, played it on rare replay with no nostalgia attached.
Tooie fucking sucks.

Because corporate culture sucks the life out of everything it touches. Duh.

I don't think the worlds were ever big enough to warrant a map. I played them when I was like 10, and I could remember the layout fairly easily.

I didn’t say it was greatly designed, just that I thought it was a good/clever inclusion. But coming from the people that made perfect dark there was no excuse as to why it handled the way it did other than they just included it for novelty sake, which can be said about a lot of Tooie in general.

this game is only for those with way too much time on their hands, and as a kid i did have it.

but fuck ever playing this again, shit is tedious and really weird.
I can blast through kazooie quickly, this is impossible.
Yet for some reason I still like DK64.

Tooie wouldn't exist without Kazooie so eat shit

thanks for mass replying faggot. opinion discarded

While Tooie does have its design flaws, it's not completely poorly designed. In fact, some if it is rather complex.

youtu.be/tKW-R1_40S4

Give this series a watch. Channel is dead but he has super good analysis on both games. Confirmed kino.

>I don't think the worlds were ever big enough to warrant a map
Terrydactyland and Grunty Industries could definitely have done with maps. Other levels like Glitter Gulch Mine and Hailfire Peaks to a lesser extent as well.

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By that logic, you should absolutely adore Devil may Cry 2 over 3, or 1 over every everything else.

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There’s plenty of rhyme and reason to how things are placed. Outside of Terrydactyland, the level design and quest design in Tooie is top notch. Especially since unlike Kazooie, Jiggies that are just randomly lying around waiting to be picked up are few and far between. Most of the Jiggies in the game require completing a series of layered puzzles to obtain, so earning them is much more rewarding. Granted, they do go overboard a couple times, like the Jiggy with the pigs in Jolly Roger, but for the most part, the majority are within reasonable means. Also, the types of actions you gotta complete are all super varied and fit with each world’s theme. Witchyworld has you doing tons of minigames for example. And, they get gradually more complex to earn as the game goes on, so, collecting Jiggies as a result feels inherent fun, in and of itself because you’re always doing tons of different puzzles, quests, and challenges to get them, and putting your newly earned abilities to use. And it’s all so organic too.

Honestly, Tooie is a masterclass in quest design. A lot of modern devs could stand to learn a whole lot from classic Rare. Tooie was ahead of its time. Its flaws actually stem from the N64 hardware and shortened dev tine which wound up cutting out 10% of the game.

I know what I’m doing with my morning. Thanks user.

Kazooie is on par with Mario 64
Tooie is borderlining on Donkey Kong 64

fucking idiots

>Too be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Banjo-Tooie

I assume you want us to believe your word is law?

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But you don’t HAVE to pop back at all you can neatly complete a solid 80% of most levels in a single run. You SHOULD leave if it starts to feel tedious, as Jiggies are much more difficult to get this time around. There’s a lot more complexity to the trials.

Also, you never have to redo set-up. Usually, if you’re halfway into getting a Jiggy, you might as well finish it. You can finish each level in 1-2 hours, and they open up quickly as you obtain new abilities, use Mumbo/Wumba, and unlock warp pads.

Idk why you’d ever get confused on what to do or where to go. The levels are not that massive.

They are great and I love them both.

But see, that layered puzzle solving, though appreciated, is why I think the pacing is off. I’m not asking for instant gratification but Tooie often times leaves a player stuck if they decide that that’s the night they want at the moment, like the pigs you mentioned. That’s the Dow I’m talking about, and what I think hurts the experience over what Kazooie did. You don’t want your player feeling frustrated. Hell, like another user said, the notes could have been useful in leading players towards puzzle set ups (not necessarily the solution) but in this game they decided to bundle that up and place them somewhat aimlessly, since they’re more currency than anything else now.

I honestly think Tooie is the far superior game but I understand that it can be a bit frustrating and slow and isn’t as immediately rewarding. I appreciate the added complexity.

It was greatly designed for its time, and within the hardware limitations of the N64.

That, the controls/camera, and the lack of notable lsndmarks in some levels (cough* Terrydactyland *cough) are why Tooie would greatly benefit from an HD Remake. More than Kazooie.

>Dow
Meant flow. On my phone this morning please understand.

It could have been tightened up though. Limitations aside they had two templates to go off of and still left it loose as hell.

Tooie's levels have fucking FIVE TELEPORTATION PADS each, that should tell you enough about the (lack of)quality of its level design.

GI didn’t need a map, each floor is color coded so it’s easy to retain a mental map. Terrydactyland is just poorly designed, and needs notable landmarks for all the caves in the level.

Because you were a dumb kid when you played them.

Kazooie is a joy to replay. Ive tried replaying Tooie at least 3 times, I always quit by the time im in glitter gulch mine

does tooie work properly on emulator yet? i remember it crashing a lot

It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the beginning levels didn't suck.
Mayhem Temple is just okay,
Glitter Gulch Mine is fucking awful,
Witchy World is good,
And then Jolly Roger Bay is boring.

Tooie is the perfect sequel, doing everything right from the first game while making it better. Both are great but Tooie wins.

As much as Im able to appreciate characters, humor and atmosphere of Tooie, the gameplay seriously falls short, hard. Its a shame really.

>and I feel Kazooie took its story more seriously than Tooie did.
I feel the same way, but that's one of the reasons why I prefer Tooie. Don't get me wrong, Kazooie has plenty of fun moments, but something about Tooie's atmosphere, the contrast between somewhat more grim worlds yet funnier dialogues made this a gem.

I liked Tooie more. Kazooie was fun and I played through it twice. But I have more fond memories of Tooie because of its gigantic worlds and more memorable characters. Not saying Kazooie didn't have good characters, but I can't forget the burger/fries characters and the dinosaurs. Along with many more.

Funnily enough I replayed the games several times but never beat them. Solely because I just get way too bored during the quiz game. I'm surprised Playtonic when making Yooka Laylee actually thought people liked that shit?

only nostalgia retards like the original game, the fact that it "focuses more on platforming and the levels are smaller" are often presented as good things but they're not. let me make it simple for you

>first game: mario 64 but with shitty movement, easy mode hover jump that makes platforming a joke, and levels designed around collecting objects instead of platforming 90% of the time
>second game: actually designed around being a collectathon (the only thing that fits the characters control scheme), wring that's actually funny sometimes
to be clear banjo tooie is still like a 7/10 at best but it's miles better than the first game because it at least knows what kind of game it should be. instead of either game you're better off playing mario 64, megaman legends, mystical ninja, even stuff like glover or robot on wheels.

banjo is a terrible series that doesn't hold up at all and I say this as someone who wasn't even 10 years old when they first came out and I was playing them. there's a reason rare tried to do something different with nuts and bolts

>doing everything right from the first game while making it better
Except it doesn't do that, there are a lot of things that Kazooie does right that Tooie doesn't.

>doing everything right from the first game while making it better

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The pigs is LITERALLY the longest quest in the game, and agreed by everyone, including the devs to be the worst jiggy in the game. It’s not exemplary of Tooie Jiggies at all. It’s an outlier.

Again, you can complete pretty much every level in 1-2 hours start to finish. How do you decide to call it a night when they’re all so short? You make much less progress in a Metroidvania like Prime in 2 hours, than you do in Tooie. Game’s under 20 hours long. Like, fuck, there’s more confusion as to what to do in a game like Bloodborne than in Tooie, especially since Tooie is designed to reward exploration. Go just about anywhere in a level and you find a quest or secret or shortcut. Plus, most Jiggy quests last about 10 mins. How in the fuck would that be frustrating?

When was the last time you played Tooie? It seems your grossly misremembering how the game plays in the moment to moment category. It beats out Kazooie by a lot in the Quest and level design. If it hasn’t been recently, I recommend you do so now. Play Tooie first, the Kazooie. They’re different games, but Tooie is not frustrating in the slightest. Idk how anyone could think that.

>It beats out Kazooie by a lot in the Quest and level design
LMAO

FIVE FUCKING TELEPORTATION PADS PER LEVEL

>BANJO KAZOOIE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT PLATFORMING
>in order to not move slow as shit in either game you need to hold a run button the whole time and listen to retarded cartoon sounds every step vs just holding down the stick and going fast all the time like in mario 64

It was as tight as it could be given the N64 controller. It needed a 2nd analogue stick, and more options for custom controls (inverted/no, plus sensitivity) but those weren’t the norm back then. Again, easily fixed in a remake.

banjo tooie is fucking trash, the levels are too big and empty and there's way too much backtracking

dont forget that whenever the first game asks you to jump on things the solution is either
>slowly hover jump over ledges with not chance of failure over and over
>use the shock jump pad and watch a slow ass animation play out over and over with no chance of failure unless you have brain damage and aim in completely the wrong direction

You don’t need to use the warp pads. Traversing the world isn’t a chore. The pads are there for if you wanna leave a level, and quickly get back to where you were later on. Like you will for some Jiggies. You don’t use them to traverse the levels on a regular basis though. Getting around is fairly easy. The only exception being GI, but that level is designed to be difficult to navigate, intentionally, as that’s the level’s core gimmick, and it slowly unravels as you play through it anways.

oh shit bros time for some epic combat in banjo kazooie
>holds down a button to become literally invincible whenever I want and walks into enemies

damn, that was tough

Collectathons are trash

Not much of a contest to me. Kazooie blows it out of the water in most respects. Tooie has some cool ideas but it's a total drag. It's more fun to reminisce about than to actually play. It has lots of great characters and level themes but the level design itself is mostly dull. It just isn't fun as a platformer.

How?

You can collect everything in Glitter Gulch Mine in under 1 hour in almost one run. Literally everything but one Jiggy can be obtained the first time you enter the level.

If you can’t handle that, the you must have quit Kazooie past Bubblegloop Swamp, as the early Tooie levels play like the later Kazooie levels, and in fact, GGM was originally gonna be in Kazooie.

I was able to play through it at my brother's apartment, the trick is going for bananas, and using the warp pads, golden bananas just kind of come naturally, right now I'm trying to play through Banjo Tooie and I gotta say, this one REALLY drags

> It just isn't fun as a platformer.
neither is the original game you fucking nostalgia-tard. if you made a list of top 10 n64 platformers the original banjo kazooie wouldn't even make the list because the mechanics are so fucking clunky and slow compared to other games on the system when it comes to doing anything besides picking shit up off the ground

just because the first game makes it as simple as "it's just standing here in a corner, pick it up and do a little dance that takes too long" instead of having you do anything doesn't make it a better game

Yes. I’m currently playing through it on PJ64.

Mayhem Temple plays like Kazooie level and is linear as fuck, on purpose too.

GGM was meant to be a Kazooie level, it just got cut due to time. It plays no different than Mad Monster Mansion or Rusty Bucket.

Jolly Roger is comfy as fuck, and the best underwater level in any 3D platformer.

Glitter Gulch is garbage. Look at space. Level could have and should have been downsized.

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The problem with kazooie is that is has too many jiggies just laying around. Replaying kazooies first few levels almost feel like a speed run because of how easy it is to nab things when you know where they are. Kinda feels like Super Mario Odyssey in a way in the speed you can get things at the start. It only really goes away once you hit mid game but still only really stops at mad monster.

Tooies problem is that it had too many tiny nooks and crannies and it gets annoying trying to complete the game and found out you lost a page piece and now you have to go WAAAAYYY up a levels asshole to dig it out. Also FPS sections are hit or miss but theres only a few I actually dislike.

People who say this have never played Tooie. You can complete at least 80% of a every level in a single run.

I’m playing through Tooie right now and loving every second.

>Tooies problem is that it had too many tiny nooks and crannies and it gets annoying trying to complete the game and found out you lost a page piece and now you have to go WAAAAYYY up a levels asshole to dig it out
nobody is forcing you to 100% the game besides your own mental illness. there's not even a reward behind it

some people enjoy that kind of exploration in large worlds, the way BT does it appeals to two different groups. the people who don't want to run through the whole level don't have to, you don't even need to do every level to beat the game

>neither is the original game
But it is. The smaller levels and more consistent focus on your moveset and organic exploration keeps things a lot snappier. Tooie puts a lot more emphasis on using its levels to host minigames that completely introduce different movesets or contexts. Kazooie had that stuff too, but less so.
>nostalgia-tard
They came out within less than three years of each other, Dullard-chan.
>top 10 n64 platformers
I'll humor you. Name them. Go on you little slut.

>Jolly Roger is comfy as fuck, and the best underwater level in any 3D platformer.
Excellent taste, I fucking love JRB

That’s good level design. That’s how you correctly design a open ended level. Tons of connecting rooms with multiple entries and it loops around.

Shit like this is why people love Dark Souls one the most out of the Soulsborne games.

Also,
>brainlet surprised a Mine level is mazelike.

tooie is more fun to replay. I like having to back track to old worlds and open up more parts of them with new items not enough games do that

Tooie is shit

there is no debate

you aren't getting the same game with these

BASED user! This fucking nigger get it

>this whole post
>thinking context sensitive pads werent taking the piss out like most of the game was
>shitting on conker ever
why do I even come here

user is getting entirely defensive, which is fine, but maybe there’s something to be said about all these people not quite liking it as much as Kazooie.

My only problem with Tooie is that I’ve played it so many times as a kid, I know exactly where everything is every time I replay it, my body just naturally goes through all the optimal steps for Jiggy collecting, so the fun of exploration and challenge are gone. It’s the one game where, if I could erase ny memory of it so I could replay it, I 100% would. I love that game so much.

Lets fix Tooie

- downscale the levels
- have all the abilities from Banjo Kazooie from the start and keep it that way, you now have a diverse yet versatile movepool like Mario 64. no new pointless gimmick abilities, the new transformations are enough to keep it fresh and varied
- Bring back the separate 100 notes and spread them out across the whole level but make it so you dont lose them if you die.
- Either make playable Mumbo more useful or relegate it to just being the transformation guy again, ditch Wumba.
- no pointless different egg types
- no pointless fps sections

It's not being maze like that's the problem, it's too much open space with fuck all going on. You could cut 25% of the travel time and it would be better for it.

This, they're different games that try to do different things. BK is structured more like a traditional platformer where you're meant to complete levels sequentially. BT is designed more like a metroidvania. Whether you prefer one or the other is up to you, but saying "BK is BT but better" or "BT is BK but better" is small brain.

I think it’s just contrarians jumping on the meme. No one has ever “hated” Tooie. Some people will prefer one or the other, but Yea Forums is a place of extremes, thus, it can’t be “I like Kazooie more cause it suits my tastes better” no, it’s “Tooie is shit, what a drag.” Thus, it creates a meme that Tooie is somehow a bad game, when it couldn’t be further from the truth. And with that, the idea starts to spread, and public opinion starts to shift, people who’ve never played Tooie or haven’t played it in a long time, start to think that the gane was bad all along, and that only Kazooie was good. When, if you go back and play it NOW you can see that Tooie is still a 10/10 game that STILL holds up nearly 20 years later. The majority of the people saying Tooie sucks, probably haven’t played it least not recently.

Increase Banjo and Kazooie's movement speed. Faster runspeed, quicker jumps, Banjo pulls himself up ledges faster, everything.

>But it is. The smaller levels and more consistent focus on your moveset and organic exploration keeps things a lot snappier
this does not make banjo kazooie a fun platformer you dishonest clown because the basic way the character controls and the obstacles you're asked to go over are so unsatisfying and designed for children. it just means the level is over faster, which might make it better as a platformer than tooie, but tooie being worse as a platformer doesn't automatically make banjo a good platformer.

>They came out within less than three years of each other
and they both came out before 9/11 you 30 year old boomer

>I'll humor you. Name them
in no particular order
mario 64. goemon. rayman 2. robot on wheels. glover. mischief makers, kirby, castlevania, toy story 2 and if you want a rare game conker.

all of these games have at least two of the following mandatory points for being a platformer that's good
>fluid movement that doesn't require you to do stuff like hold a run button the whole game to go at a decent speed
>platforming that has an actual element of challenge involved, instead of flying/using a jump or fly pad to automatically go over everything
>gameplay mechanics that mainly exist to give you new ways to jump around the screen, instead of 50 glorified keys to open doors

banjo kazooie doesn't hit any of these three points and so its a shitty platformer, and (as its fans love to point out) it's focused on being a platformer instead of a collectathon like it's sequel that leaves banjo kazooie as just being a bad game with no redeeming qualities to anyone who isn't mentally ill and thinks the GUH GUH GUH cartoon sounds are "charming".

More like, how to ruin Tooie.

What travel time? You can cross GGM from one end to the other in like 2 mins. Running shoes and it takes like 40 seconds. Warp pads are instant and well placed.

What's wrong with more abilities? Even if they don't do much, it's better rhan nothing. And don't act as if some weren't fantastic/essential.

Anyone saying B-K and B-T are bad games is either mentally damaged, or just straight up trying to troll.
>Toy Story
Definitely a troll.

Warp pads shouldn't even be in a platform game.

I love this game way more than it deserves

>Glover
Come on now...

But they should be in an open world collectathon. Which is what Banjo is, and always has been.

I’m the same way, user. Though fuck Crystal caverns for real...

dude, its a platformer where whenever you need to platform the game just makes you hold A to win on shock jump pads and where in order to go at a speed still slower than mario 64 you need to hold a button and listen to stupid chicken sounds

ass game

Why didn't Kazooie have or need them then?

>Toy Story 2
>Not amazing.
Big fag.

glover has fast movement without a run button and great for its era physics when it comes to bouncing around and building momentum with the ball, hating the game is a meme built on streamers not understanding the mechanics because they're used to autopilot "jump and then jump again to automatically hover over the gap" games like banjo

it is not a perfect game, but it is objectively a better platformer

kazooie didn't have them because the devs were trying to ape mario 64. tooie was them realizing the actual niche the series fit into. I could just as easily ask why did kazooie pretend to be a platformer and then design the whole game around shit like pounding letters on the ground in a sandcastle or transforming into an ant so you can walk up a steep hill you otherwise cant instead of having some sort of platforming challenge to get up there

Kazooie, Tooie, and Gruntildas Revenge are all great games that all do things differently and have their strengths.

>Ditch Wumba
.>:(

>kazooie didn't have them because the devs were trying to ape mario 64. tooie was them realizing the actual niche the series fit into.
So Banjo wasn't always an open world collectathon then, was it?

Because Tooie is an improvement on Kazooie which just had random Jiggies haplessly lying around with no challenge or purpose, and Tooie actively made each Jiggy far more difficult to obtain through layered puzzles, and this necessitated larger levels.

Also, individual worlds in Kazooie are a lot more linear, wheres Tooie is open ended. It doesn’t guide you toward Jiggies, it lets your curiosity seek them out. Mayahem Temple is the most linear level in Tooie, and it plays like most Kazooie levels.

>hating the game is a meme built on streamers...
I’m an old man at this point, user. A bit jaded, but exposed to many games over time. I played the game long before internet was common in most households, let alone fathoming that I could watch other people play games through a modem and monitor. What I’m trying to say is that my opinion on the game was made a long time ago borrowing that piece of shit multiple times from a friend. Kept thinking “maybe this time will be different” but the game just never became good to me. Though I will give you that it’s physics were impressive. But a good tech demo isn’t enough for me to call it a worthwhile game, let alone a good platformer.

>but tooie being worse as a platformer doesn't automatically make banjo a good platformer.
Okay. But Banjo is a good platformer. That it revolves around exploration more than Rayman 2 or Super Mario 64 -- both of which are games that have better linear platforming design than anything in Kazooie -- doesn't change this. Kazooie is still good at what it does. Tooie shifted its design priorities such that I do not find it that fun to play. Tooie leaned into its comparative advantage, sure, but that didn't result in a better game. It should have tightened up the fluidity of movement and level design instead of trying to mask Kazooie's flaws with bloat and tedium. Tooie is more time-consuming, but it isn't really more involving.
>and they both came out before 9/11
Which makes them older than you judging by your posts, Dullard-chan.
>Glover
>Toy Story 2
Oh user.

> But a good tech demo isn’t enough for me to call it a worthwhile game, let alone a good platformer.
and yet it's more of a platformer than banjo, a game that literally has "hold A to automatically jump up to the next ledge" mechanics like shock jump pads, because the actual movement between the levels is always up to the player and not "use the arbitrary ability we just gave you in the arbitrary ability zone and nowhere else".

banjo kazooie isn't a platformer, its a series of locked doors with keys. you have to do exactly what the game tells you to do to progress with the right ability that you have to earn

>Tooie sucks because the controls and movement are much better

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This. First game all the way

Tooie and DK 64 is proof that Rare, as based as some of their games are, were showing signs of their downfall in the upcoming 21st century and weren't nearly as perfect as some remember them to be.

Retro has a far better track record but then again Retro has yet to actually make an original game so that's not too fair.

There's actually a rather straightforward answer to the enduring Kazooie-Tooie conundrum.
Here, read this, I present:

Kazooie:
>Soul
Tooie:
>Soulless

To think, that it was so simple in the end.

>was deathly afraid of lakes, ocean, any large pool of water really as a kid
>mfw rusty bucket and jolly roger bay

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I like your just because there’s more moves, combined with all the ones you already had. Plus characters have changed a bit.
[shiggy]not liking Humba Wumba.[/diggy]

>but that didn't result in a better game.
This statement is your subjective opinion, see:
>It should have tightened up the fluidity of movement and level design instead of trying to mask Kazooie's flaws

No see, this is what YOU wanted Tooie to be. Not what it needed to be. Tooie explored and expanded a genre, defined it. Rather than copy what Mario was already best at. It was the first 3D game to have fully realized open world, open ended levels that all interconnected. Perhaps this didn’t suit your PERSONAL tastes... fine. You just prefer action over exploration. But to say it was a worse game cause of your SUBJECTIVE opinion, is fucking retarded. Tooie accomplished what it set out to do with flying colors, just cause it didn’t satisfy you specifically doesn’t mean it’s a bad game. Perhaps you should go play Mario instead considering what you say you want. You don’t want Banjo, you want Mario.

I want to play Tooie, but the frame rate bothers me. Did they fix that on the 360 port?

How'd you feel about the late outside of Peach's castle in sm64? It always scared me as a kid. I died in a lake as a kid.

Banjo-Kazooie>Super Mario 64>Banjo Tooie>Conkers Bad Fur Day>Donkey Kong 64

>It was the first 3D game to have fully realized open world
You cannot be fucking serious. Tooie is absolutely not an open world game.

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I already had some issue with the situational jumping/flying pads and running/swamp boots from the first game but Tooie turns up those problems up to eleven with completely bloated overspecialized abilities to the point that it becomes fucking disgusting.

>Step on a pad to separate bear and bird to do some very ultra specific thing, return to the pad
>Go get the shaman, step on the pad, return the shaman.
>step on the warp pad to navigate the level because we couldnt bother to design the levels properly where moving around isnt ridiculously tedious
>Here's a contrived situation where you are forced to use that one pointless ability you had to use 5 levels ago
>transform into this creature so you are allowed to do this one thing on the other side of the world, enjoy moving around even slower than banjo and once you are done come back so you can resume the action
>oh look a rock is in the way I will blow it up with an egg grenade, oh nevermind actually I must have to jump on it and use the beak stomp. oh nevermind I have to use the totally different beak drill. Sure love having all this pointless abilities that logically would do the same thing.
>oh look a rock is in the way, I will use the beak drill to destroy it. oh nevermind I have to use a grenade. oh nevermind the rock is covered in ice, it makes sense that a grenade explosion doesnt melt it, good thing I have the totally different fire eggs to take care of the job.
>Cool another tedious first person shooter section, just what I wanted to do while playing an action platformer collectathon

And dont even get me started on the levels "connectivity"

>Banjo-Kazooie>Super Mario 64
"they say silly cartoon things! so heartwarming!"

Seething Mariotard

It’s an open world collectathon. Each individual level is Open World.

If Mario Odyssey is Open World, then so is Tooie you absolute retard.
>but it’s not like muh Skyrim
Based moron doesn’t know what Open world means.

>Not what it needed to be.
This, too, is a subjective opinion.
>Rather than copy what Mario was already best at.
Kazooie already distinguished itself from Mario 64. It wasn't a copy, and the sequel I wish we'd gotten instead wouldn't have been either.
>SUBJECTIVE opinion
This is generally always implied. There is no such thing as an "objectively" good video game. People over 15 all know this.
>You don't want Banjo, you want Mario.
No, I want Banjo-Kazooie; I just don't want Banjo-Tooie. This isn't hard to get.

>If Mario Odyssey is Open World
No one that actually knows anything says this.

unnerving but at least i could see the bottom and it didn't kill me in 10 seconds

redpilled boomers

This sounds like you never played Tooie.

For one, you get the Bill Drill BEFORE the Grenade eggs, and the Bill Drill rocks all have a distinct universal design.

>No see, this is what YOU wanted Tooie to be.
Yeah, they wanted it to not be a piece of shit instead of "Banjo, again, but more tedious and with more gimmicks!"

>Kazooie already distinguished itself from Mario 64
yeah, for example kazooie requires you to hold a button to run and is more focused on making levels coherant instead of fun challenges to jump on

>It’s an open world collectathon. Each individual level is Open World.
>Mario Odyssey is Open World
You might actually be the dumbest person I've ever seen in one of these threads, and that's saying a lot.

I guess Nintendo doesn’t know shit, as that’s how they described their game. Maybe it’s you who doesn’t know shit.

>Kazooie already distinguished itself from Mario 64
Yeah, by being a collectathon and not a platformer. Which Tooie expanded upon.

>No, I want Banjo-Kazooie; I just don't want Banjo-Tooie. This isn't hard to get.
And Tooie is Banjo Kazoooie + more. Is that so hard to get?

People who say Tooie is tedious haven’t played it. Nice try.

debate THIS

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as a bab I only had Tooie and I loved it. Kinda glad I played and enjoyed it then because playing it now it seems kinda bad.
as an adult I played Kazooie and it's definitely superior.

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You’re the one who doesn’t know what open world level design is. If you think it’s having no loading screens, you’re a moron.

Or they have different opinions than you.
Kazooie was already testing my patience at times, but it a struck a decent pace. Tooie did not.

I played it and found it tedious. What now?

I like both a lot

Banjo isn't gay, delete this.
Kazooie is a dyke, though.

Maybe you just don’t like collectathons and exploration. Simple as.

Different user and I agree that for the most part Tooie expanded on the ideas presented in Kazooie.
I propose that regressions in the quality of level design and complete duds in jiggy quality make it a worse game anyway.

This is my biggest issue with Tooie.

More =/= Better

Im not a native english speaker so the best word I have to describe the gameplay skills is inelegant. I get that they felt the need to come up with something new but over complicating and making everything dependent on very specific contexts was not the right answer.

Open level design =/= Open world game.
The game is still split into separate worlds that are unlocked in a set order based on the number of collectables you have. Even the hub is linear and requires you to have certain abilities to even reach certain world entrances.

This. Banjo is such a good friend that he pretended to be gay just to cheer Kazooie up. What a Bro.

But I enjoyed Kazooie, Psychonauts, A Hat in Time, etc.
Maybe opinions aren't monolithic and some people just think Tooie is too much.

And then they fuck

Only slightly worse due to some small blemishes. People forget Tooie is unfinished and had tons of cut content. Both are amazing games though. Tooie also OBJECTIVELY improves upon many issues in Kazooie, like the controls and camera and sound design and lighting.

I want a classic "But you don't even like girls" Sam and Max bit but with Banjo informing Kazzooie she does not like boys.

Good, now go back and read my original post where I said it was the first game to have open world, open ended LEVELS.

You can now feel like an absolute retard for not knowing how to read.

>And Tooie is Banjo Kazoooie + more.
It has more things that make it less enjoyable to me. The fact I don't like where Tooie increases its emphasis doesn't mean that I do not like or enjoy those features in Banjo-Kazooie or wouldn't want those things in whatever hypothetical sequel I wanted in Tooie's place. It's just a matter of priority and balance.

Is Kazooie nice to anyone but Banjo, ever?

I wouldn't consider how Kazooie treats Banjo "nice." Maybe "slightly less antagonistic."

I could beat you up in real life

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>Tooie also OBJECTIVELY improves upon many issues in Kazooie, like the controls and camera and sound design and lighting.
Agreed on Camera and somewhat controls.
I don't remember any lighting issues is Kazooie but maybe the XB version is clouding my judgement.
There are no sound design issues in Kazooie, what are you talking about?
Also being unfinished doesn't excuse inferior level design. There are less bad Jiggies than people make out but the level design really is just a step down in every way.

>as that’s how they described their game.
I don't think it's a label that applies to Odyssey anymore than it does Super Mario 64.

>There are no sound design issues in Kazooie, what are you talking about?
Kazooie noises.

Tooie increases its emphasis on exploration. It’s a slower paced game. This is not objectively bad though, like a lot of people pretend it is. Also many people who lash out at Tooie for that, were praising Odyssey for doing the exact same thing, but less elegantly. Tooie actually carefully crafted its puzzles for Jiggies rather than haphazardly scattering dozens of them around a level like Odyssey did.

Tooie gets far more flack from its detractors than it deserves, and I encourage those people to give the game another chance, as its own thing, as the game still holds up today.

>the levels are BIGGER!
>MORE jinjos!
>MORE boss battles!
>MORE context sensitive pads!
>MORE shoes!
>MORE abilities!
>MORE egg types!
>MORE transformations!
>MORE cheato pages!
>MORE minigames!
>MORE explicit adult humor! jolly rogers is a gay bar ahahah epic xD
>MORE witches!
>MORE mole teachers!
>MORE helpful shamans!
>MORE backtracking

MORE MORE MORE!
BLOAT BLOAT BLOAT!

BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER

What would their codec conversation be?

Low iq

Yes, they exist. What's the problem with them?

Kazooie > Tooie

More is not always better.

This is also why I prefer DKC 1 to 2. It's lacking in places, but it's less gimmicky. Both excellent games, but Rare would get stuck on MORE THINGS.

Their volume and omnipresence. Even Smash turned that shit down.

Conker is not a brainlet game at all. Some difficult platforming and figuring out what to do without a guide can be difficult.

Mario 64 = Banjo Kazooie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Banjo Tooie = Donkey Kong 64

People who say Tooie is worse because it's got more in it are retarded.
Tooie is still worse though.

90% of the interconnectivity exists for no reason and doesn't connect in a way that's actually convenient.

You realise there are multiple ways to read what you said because you type like an ESL, yes?
>It was the first 3D game to have fully realized open world, open ended levels that all interconnected
The two parts of this statement can easily be taken individually because of the massive redundancy that results from saying "open world, open ended levels" instead of just saying "open ended levels".

The level design is only bad in Terrydactyland where the level was made larger to accommodate the T-Rex transformation. Everywhere else it’s a step up, as they’re open ended levels you can tackle in any order you like. Unlike Kazooie where they’re all linear as fuck right to the end. Best example being Click Clock Wood, everyone’s favorite level. Though thematically fun, climbing up that tree so many times is the definition of tedious due to how linear it is. Linear level design is not good for collectathons, it makes them overly simplistic and/or tedious. Tooie realized this away with tedium by making the levels open ended, with multiple areas that could be accessed from numerous ways.

People who complain about Tooie being “tedious” are complaining that the Jiggies are significantly more difficult to obtain as the puzzles to get them are layered, and they wanted the instant gratification of just finding Jiggies lying around in the middle of nowhere.

I don’t care what you think. You’re not a game designer, and you’re not Nintendo. Your just some faggot with a (bad) opinion.

But it's a valid reason. More isn't better.

Take playing as Mumbo for instance. Cool, now you can play as Mumbo, you couldn't before!
Oh, all he can do is waddle around and use a pad. It's fucking boring as shit and not a good addition.

Now Banjo and Kazooie can split up! Oh, that just limits my moveset severely and causes more "Cool, now I have to backtrack to a fucking split pad and then come all the way back here again." moments.

>Donkey Kong 64 equal to BT
BT was a poorly thought out game.
DK 64 was outright garbage.

I hate it in collectathons where you can't get everything the first time you enter an area.

Tooie has better music because it allowed for the mixing of midi files, and the songs also play and change channels during loading, rather than reset when entering a new area.

This is an objective improvement over Kazooie
Tooie also has better shadows with dynamic lighting. This is why dark lit places and fire eggs that light up areas are a thing in Tooie. Because it wasn’t possible in Kazooie, due to the lighting engine.

That’s objectively false, as the interconnectivity is ALWAYS directly tied to specific Jiggy puzzles and quests.

Imagine being this retarded

tooie's rewards are more rewarding for people who crave novelty

I guess Super Mario 64 is an open world game too then, huh? Odyssey was stated to be in its lineage, after all.

I don’t type like an ESL, you just don’t know how to read. Open World is an adjective. Open world GAME. It needs a noun, an object to be made concrete. Only noun preceding it in that sentence is levels. You just didn’t read it carefully enough, and jumped to conclusions.

Don’t fault me for your own incompetence.

Tooie is essentially DK64 lite

It’s not. But it’s on you to prove that it is given the statement you’re making. The world design in 64 and Odyssey is vastly different. Given that Odyssey doesn’t boot you out of levels, its got more Banjo blood in it than 64.

But of course, you’re too stupid to realize this as nuanced points are too much for your tiny little brain.

There are more reasons than the size as to why Terrydacty Land is bad and there are more bad levels than just Terrydacty Land.
You are the one who is equating a while game to one level. Click Clock Wood is the only level that is even remotely linear and even then, only climbing the tree.
I agree that the jiggies are more improved than not. When I say there are duds I mean the pigs in Jolly Roger Lagoon and such.

It’s not. DK64 is actually tedious with 5 different characters each with unique collectibles. Tooie is designed a lot more elegantly.

Just because something was improved doesn't mean that it was an issue in the first place.
The lighting and sound design in Kazooie don't take away from the experience in any way.

What critisism could you possibly give Tooie that isn't even worse in dk64?

1 Banjo Kazooie
2 Solo Banjo
3 Solo Kazooie
4 Mumbo
5 Wumba transformation

Tooie is better by a significant margin. Like, a solid 60 percent better at least

lmao rekt

this

just because its less obvious doesnt make it any less bad

DK64 being insanely tedious doesn't mean Tooie isn't also fairly tedious for similar reasons.

I played Kazooie and a kid and I'm working through Tooie right now.
Tooie is such a step up in every single regard, I don't understand why it's treated the way DK64 is.

N64, 360, or emulation for tooie?
Kinda want to go back and finish it, but I'm not sure what the best way to play it now is.

>near endgame
>had to beat dk classic again

fuck

The reason why 5 characters is bad in DK64 is bc they are all forced to backtrack to almost every part of every level bc they all have unique variants of every collectable in the game.
Toome doesn't share this fault and equating them is retarded.
t. Kazooiefag

360 hands down

It's not even a debate. Tooie runs like absolute shit on 64

All the levels in Kazooie barring Clanker and Mad Monster are linear. They typically just circle around and have a central focal point, they’ll branch put here and there, but follow a very guided structure. They’re all basically structured like Mayahem is in Tooie, a linear loop with some branches.

Tooie on the other hand, the 7 remaining worlds are 100% open ended. You’re dropped in, and left to tackle the challenges in whatever order you like. Making the experience a lot more unique, and adding more replay value. You’re free to just explore and do whatever. Kazooie feels more like a checklist in comparison. First this, then this, then this. You’re just picking things up as you loop around the level, like a trip to the supermarket.

As for Tland, I agree, ideally, the whole level needs a redesign. But Kazooie had bad levels too.

Also, one or two bad Jiggied don’t ruin a game, not when you have 90, and Kazooie not only had bad Jiggies, but an over abundance of just having random ones scattered about pointlessly with no challenge.

nice try

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Different people like different things. I quite enjoyed exploring Tooie's world, the minigames, the bossfights, the transformations, etc. But I can easily see people enjoying Kazooie more, it's much more of an insulated, streamlined experience.

>The world design in 64 and Odyssey is vastly different.
Only somewhat. People get distracted by the number of moons, ignoring that the homogeneity of collectibles doesn't change what the game is actually doing. There are plenty of moons that are analogous to the kinds of things you do for stars in 64. There are significant differences (you don't get booted from a level, the game is altogether more exploration-heavy and linear platforming gauntlet levels of the kind found in 64 and Sunshine are sadly absent) but the basic structure of the game and how you progress through it aren't any different, which is why Nintendo acknowledged the lineage between it, 64, and Sunshine.

Odyssey does make movements toward the Banjo games, but they aren't open-world games either unless you want to stretch that label so thin it's meaningless.

I could never get past the dinosaur world in Tooie

Im designing my own collectathonbut its top down 2d like pokemon and zelda lttp. What would you say are the dos and donts to watch out for?

Not even close to the same thing. There’s like 1 Jiggy Mumbo gets in the whole game, and two for Wumba forms.

You can still get every note, and Jinjo with the duo. DK had you collect individual bananas, Golden bananas, blueprints, moves, etc... for 5 characters.

But Tooie is not Tedious.

This is canon you know

People got comfy being able to one and done levels. Having to keep track to what they've done and where they've been isn't what they signed up for. Basically if it where a venn diagram they would be people who like 3d platformers but don't really like metroidvanias. Also consider people simply just played more of kazooie than tooie, or if they did they where probably to young to actual do well at it.

How? By that point the jiggy requirements are so low you could skip an entire world if it bothers you that much.

Do drop the top-down concept.
Do not keep the top-down concept.

The fact that you don’t get booted out of levels for collecting moons SIGNIFICANTLY changes the gameplsy style snd level design. It’s why Odyssey has open world levels and 64 does not.

Levels work better when they revolve around a large (usually central) set piece.

Look into Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie for what to do and into Banjo Tooie and Donkey Kong 64 for what not to do.

Make each area 100% clearable the first time you get there. None of this forced backtracking shit.

I don't like Tooie as much because you can't fully complete a level without moving on to the next one, so you can't do a "speedrun" of each individual levels without moving on to the next one and then coming back.

It can be.You have to keep backtracking, not just to older levels, but even within the same level. Go down a path, oops you have to be Banjo solo, go down another path, oops you gotta be Kazooie, go down the old path, oh there's another pad you need to be Mumbo for, but oh to open the Mumbo pad you need to be transformed so it's time to backtrack yet again and then come back as a transformation.
Rinse and repeat as you have to do this for every single older world you've already been to too.

Honestly a lot of Tooie could've been fixed by getting rid of Mumbo and having splitting up be a timed move you don't need a pad for.

I can’t imagine people not liking Metroidvanias. The one thing the excel at is level design.

I think the issue with the pigs is that usually you're given a lot of rewards during the multi-layered quests. There's a billion steps to getting into the ice station at Hailfire Peaks too but it doesn't feel like it because each step is a quest in itself with its own jinjo or jiggy or honeycomb piece to make it feel like you're progressing.

With the pigs you're just accomplishing fuck-all until you do all the work for it.

Exactly, but they don't connect in any way that's actually convenient, just in a way that forces you to go to a specific spot in another level to then enter the level you were already playing and getting some walled off Jiggy that should probably be considered as a part of the other level anyway..

Your ideas suck. Timed split up is THE definition of tedious game design. You’re under stress the whole time. Imagine Grunty Industries with timed split up...

Plus, you limit your game possibilities drastically too

Awful stuff. Never make a game please.

The game doesn't always send you back to older levels at a point where you can actually do the older levels now.

I love metroidvanias. I dont enjoy banjo tooie at all besides the music and character humor, the warp pads and gimmicky unnecessary abilities are a big no no from me.

But Banjo Tooie does this. Witchyworld's set piece is the circus tent, Glitter Gulch's is Wumba's mountain, Terrydactland's is the mountain (though admittedly the level design is still a bit confusing), and Mayahem's is the temple.

>Imagine Grunty Industries with timed split up...

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This thread makes me want to play Tooie again. Traversing the big worlds is comfy as fuck.

You don't know what linear means.
Draw the linear route for Freezeezy Peak on a map.
I never said a few bad jiggies ruined the game, the level design does. But while we're in the topic, Tooie's duds are worse than Kazooie's duds.
>inb4 most of Kazooie's jiggies are bad.
No, simple jiggies are not automatically bad, they make the simple act of exploring rewarding. And this doesn't even take into account the jiggies that do require puzzle solving, combat or a minigame. You saying all Jiggies in Kazooie are like the one on the hill in Mumbos Mountain is like me saying all the Jiggies in Tooie are like the pigs in JRL

What if I like the stress of the challenge of trying to complete a challenge within a time limit over having to backtrack to the fucking pads? I'm not seeing the flaw in making it a timed move here.

>but don't really like metroidvanias.
I love Metroidvanias. I still don't like Tooie.

Metroidvania design feels like the natural conclusion to Rare's design style to me though.

Banjo excels at having a diverse and flexible main character with a million abilities you unlock over the course of the game, funny NPCs who you do fetch quests for, and big sprawling worlds with a lot of goodies to find. Tooie's domino effect design where everything you do impacts another part of the game and the whole space is an interconnected playground highlights all the series' strengths.

Banjo-Kazooie is a pretty slow game itself and the lack of a grab or aerial abilities like you get in Tooie makes the platforming feel more limited compared to its contemporaries like Mario 64 and Spyro. I think they chose the right direction to take.

>OMG It's Bon-,Ben-,Bonko or whatever his name is and that bird of his!!!!!!! :>O

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Kazooie is tight as fuck though I would have appreciated less stupid minigames like the turtle choir and playing the organ.
Tooie is a bloated messy clusterfuck and should be the textbook example of how bigger/more is not necessarily better.

Damn, I remember years ago Tooie was hailed as "one of the best sequels ever made." Never knew it was so polarizing now.

This guy gets it. Tooie is literally the perfect example of a good sequel. For the most part it plays exactly like the first one but more shit has been added and poor game optimizations have been fixed. If you like kazooie it's literally because of nostalgia reasons. I mean can anyone of you name one musical track from kazooie that's better than tooie???

Donkey Kong 64 also had a 9/10 rating across the board when it came out

>Liking Tooie means you can't like Kazooie.
This is what this side picking mentality does to you.

It's not. Yea Forums is just unbelievably contrarian

Casual

As a kid I enjoyed Tooie more but now that im able to play them with a more critical eye I can tell you with certainty that Kazooie is leagues above it.

Still love both though.

Never bothered me, sounds like a subjective thing.

To add onto this I also don't understand all the flack for the abilities you unlock in Tooie.

In Donkey Kong 64 I agree it's a clusterfuck, that games a mess. So many things are tied to context sensitive pads and are only used to open doors. Every Kong has their own identical equivalent of a power but each golden banana uses a different one as a key, forcing backtracking. You obtain complete filler abilities like turning invisible and pulling levers and hitting blue ground pound switches that have no business being in the game because they're not adding anything to the game or your moveset. It's like if a Metroid game colored your missiles orange and told you you can now open orange doors without any mechanical difference.

In Banjo-Tooie you don't have that bloat because everything is just building on your preexisting controls and moves from the original. You hold a button to change ground pounds to the drill. You tap the right shoulder button to change between egg ammo on the fly. A lot of the things you get are tied to the split-up feature, so Banjo and Kazooie get their own fun movesets instead of being super limited when they're on their own. It's really streamlined and the additional options don't get annoying because at their worst it just takes an extra second of processing to realize you need a grenade egg to open this box. The egg system in general is a brilliant way to expand on the variety of puzzles in the game without having a dozen stupid one-off abilities like DK64 had.

The worst one is that shitty first person Goldeneye minigame but I just unlocked Cloud Cuckooland and have only seen it twice so far.

>this
tooie is the bogus journey to kazooies excellent adventure
fookin amazing sequel

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>nostalgia
People can genuinely like something more than you do for reasons other than nostalgia.

>just hit terrydactyland in tooie
Can i quit now? This world just looks like a nightmare from the start.
Also is Nuts and Bolts at least okay?

The good thing about Tooie is that you can do worlds piecemeal since you need to come back to them later anyway.
I've been switching on and off between Hailfire and Grunty Industries and pop into Terradactyland to do a jiggy here and there. Spending too much time in one place drags the game down, it's better to hop around.

Nuts and bolts is awful even ignoring the IP misuse.
Stick through Tooie. Don't let's is inferior level design define it for you.

>Spending too much time in one place drags the game down, it's better to hop around.

That's a pain.
They shoulda added warp pads in the worlds that warp you back to previous worlds.

Nuts and Bolts was ahead of its time with the vehicle creation system, which is genuinely fun if you like that sort of thing.

The missions are repetitive and boring though, and trying to collect shit in the levels fucking sucks.

Do I need to get all of the jiggies to beat the game?

You need 70 out of the 90 in the game.
It's more lax than Kazooie since the jiggies are way harder to obtain.

I don't care how people feel one way or another, for me personally, I just like Kazooie more because I hate backtracking.

They're both really great games, there's no reason to have a dick-measuring contest over them.

What I didn’t like in tooie is that the ending didn’t give you a satisfying victory. In kazooie you beat grubtilda and she’s still trapped in the rock. In tooie, you get the ending, but it never saves so you can keep fighting her

Kazooie: Dark Souls
Tooie: Dark Souls 2

DON'T

Kazooie: Diablo 2
Tooie: Diablo 3

Are you stupid?

Sort of, you're going to want to get at least 98 so you can have two bars of health, the final boss is very difficult without it, you might as well get the other 2 to get the extra part for the ending

youtube.com/watch?v=Vg7yGeySthw

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What Tooie did to the music notes was criminal

Over the past year or so I've noticed a drastic increase in the number of people samefagging to force an opinion really hard. I will say the Dinosaur level was way too fucking big for its own good but besides that I don't remember any of the Tooie levels being offensively fuckhuge.

>last uploaded a year ago
>never did DK64
damn.

Nah. People who like the first game more because their shriveling little brains are too far gone to wrap their head around actual level design more complex than Treasure Trove Cove.

The biggest criticism for Kazooie was that the notes didn't save when collected, Tooie fixed this in the only way the N64 could.

Banjo and Kazooie control really fucking well in Tooie

I love solo Banjo's double jump
I have no idea if its intentional or not but it feels great.

Not him but I find tooie annoying to navigate.
Not played dk64 in years though so my opinion might very well change once I do.

Played tooie first and loved it, was straight forward and simple
kazooie felt like a cluster fuck that didn't explain anything.
>get first jiggy
>doesn't tell you shit just keep collecting jiggies
>have to manually leave world
>random worlds are unlocked but others need jiggies
>never explained the point of jiggies

When you get a jiggy in tooie, it feels like you did something and you had to learn a skill to acquire it. kazooie just feels like you collect as many as you can in 1 go before you get bored of that world and wander to the next.

After I collected about about 4 jiggies or at mumbos mountain whatever I went to that beach world and just quit the game.

>TIL Yea Forums has terrible taste in everything
Kazooie is grate, but Tooie is just all around better.
Kazooie is a pure collectaton plataformer and Tooie is a Metroidvania collectaton, both are great in their own ways, but when it comes to polish Tooie is objectively better.

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Is this post a joke

God DKC2 was absolutely fantastic. THATS how you do a sequel. DKC2 is the perfect example of improving the formula.

Happened similarly to me but with Kazooie, having only played tooie as a kid. I missed all the skills you have from the get go in tooie and just didn't find it very fun.

Have you suffered some sort of brain damage between playing the games?

The worst Kazooie levels are still better than the best Tooie levels. It's pretty sad.

this 100%
people literally comparing the games when they aren't even on the same subgenre.

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Do you know where you are?

yeah such a dumb idea to compare a game with its direct sequel

Not everyone that has a different opinion than you is samefagging friend

i wish we could play through kazooie's levels with tooie's abilities
which side does that put me on, i wonder

>sequels have to be exactly like the first game
holy shit this is a decade old argument that has already been debunked countless times.
jesus christ Yea Forums really is retarded.

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>TIL
>All those typos
>Metroidvania
Banjo Tooie fans confirmed brainlets

>things have to be exactly the same to be compared
learn to read

in neither, it depends on your tastes.

do you want to play Super Mario 64 but way slower? play Kazooie

do you want to play a 3D Metroidvania? play Tooie.

it's as simple as that, too bad retards like want to enforce their shitty opinion as fact.

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>it only makes sense to compare a sequel and its predecessor if they are exactly the same

>the sequel is a completely different game
>HURR IT'S NOT THE SAME AS THE FIRST ONE IT BAD
please stop posting.

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>kazooietards kill another BK thread
amazing.

you fucking moron

>you said its pathetic to compare games when they arent on the same subgenre
>I said it makes sense to compare a game and its sequel
>Hurr durr sequels dont have to be like the first game to be good even though that was not at all the point of what was being said

>Transform into a big motherfucking goddamn T-Rex
>The only thing you do with it is roar at a cave man.
>and step on a big switch to open a gate

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>tooie
>explore the massive world, solve rewarding problems, and gain useful moves that help you get jiggys. There are also areas in worlds that you will need comeback to later when you have new skills, all are rewarding.
>kazooie
lol all the worlds are unlocked just dick around

Stop trolling, you're bad at it.

i think kazooie is great for its simplicity and lighter tone but tooie is also fantastic for having more open worlds and more refined and expanded gamplay
its something of a shame, i feel, that old worlds can't be revisited for direct comparison of the engine nor to just check on how the worlds are doing after the two years' interim
every world in the two games felt alive and populated and its sad that old ones are locked to the first game, in turn spawning the entire argument about which one is better

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I going to play it one more time.

If I still don't like it I'll be back. i might even make a thread

Your post is literally about how BK was too confusing for you, I really don't give a shit if you like it or not.

I prefer tooie. It feels like a logical next step for kazooie. More mechanics, bigger worlds. Same great music and level design

Tooie is pooie

>same great level design
thats funny

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What's your fastest 100% completion time on Banjo-Kazooie, Yea Forums? I managed a 7 hour run on N64 and just under 6 hours on XBLA thanks to the music notes holding over after dying.

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the levels are much bigger. im fine with the warp pads

can anyone post that one video of steve and banjo? I have no idea how to find it

Did they ever fix that glitch where doing the jiggy puzzles in banjos house reset your progress

files.catbox.moe/1nymwl.mp4

This one's the one with Steve violently anally raping Banjo, I must presume that was you meant.

pretty sure it isn't since it's never mentioned and you're cancelling an attack to do it
still cool as hell though, and something i wish is kept in if a remake ever happen

yeah that's it, thanks lad

I haven't done those puzzles yet, so I'm not sure

You have beaten Canary Mary 4, right user? cuz i haven't

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then you didn't 100% it.

i beat it without slowing down until the end
i didn't know what rubberbanding was as a kid so i always went full speed on that button every time and somehow won

>Never knew if I was good at button mashing or not because I would always lose the race in the first ten seconds and Marilyn rubber bands

Timer ends with Jinjonator pal. I'll go back and play for the last achievement.

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Is the bird a guy or a girl? I want to fuck it either way

Why are you autists pretending that warp pads are a bad thing?

Why are you autists defending bad level design?

this but unironically

I haven't seen a single coherent argument in this thread that explains why the level design is bad. It all boils down to
>BIGGER IS BAD
>INTERCONNECTED LEVELS IS BAD
try again fucktard

So you hate all Rockstar games?

It's less charming. I'd also add that the atmosphere in Kazooie is miles better. One could also say the first game had far more soul and love put into it, whilst Tooie feels like a bog-standard cash in sequel designed by what was most likely a B, or perhaps even C-team of Rare at that time. It just doesn't have that je na sais quoi of Kazooie, if you get what I mean. The original has a lot of heart, whereas the sequel lacks in this.

see
dont listen to the charm guy, it goes way beyond charm

I didn't like how dark Tooie was.

In Banjo-Kazooie you rescue a giant metal shark who has been chained to the floor his entire life and he is grateful.

In Tooie you'd probably kill him and he'd shit out a Jiggy before he dies.

64 and Tooie are not Soulful games you nostalgiafag

They play very differently. Tooie is a lot slower paced and is focused more on having a huge open world instead of contained levels. I think Kazooie is better overall but it's sort of hard to rank them in the same category because they each have different things they excel at.

Tooie is peak soul.

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There is no debate. 1st one is WAY better. 2nd one has no remarkable worlds. Maybe the primitive or the pirate ones but that´s it. Pretty weak in that field.

>actual boss battles other than grunty
>a bad thing

Can we all just agree that nuts and bolts is the worst

You've got it the wrong way around. Kazooie is the game without remarkable worlds, they're mostly very generic. Like, here's a bog standard beach level, a bog standard swamp level (lol), a bog standard desert level, and a haunted house level.

Meanwhile Tooie has fucking incredible shit like waltzing into Jolly Roger's Lagoon and wondering why it seems like such a small level until you find out 3/4 of it is deep underwater, or the way that you have to basically infiltrate Grunty Industries from the inside to start opening up the factory. Shit's cash.

If your top 3 levels arent treasure trove cove, mad monster mansion and click clock wood you have no taste

>"Oh, I must have to find this ice cube woman's husband to get the Jinjo."
>"haha nah nigga just grenade egg her."
>"also push her husband into boiling water when you find him later"

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click clock wood is the only good level in your list.
The only good part of mad monster mansion was the giant church

Matter of preference both are good but flawed. BK is quite simple and straightforward so it gets kinda boring at times, locking the moveset doesn't make any sense as with one exception you can finish everything in one go and transformations are quite boring. BT is a bit more complex in the level layouts and puzzles but then level design tends to create a lot of big empty open areas that don't favor Banjo's slow as fuck movement, and FPS sections tend to be mediocre. Level design is all over the plac in both with some levels being great and some being frustrating. neither game is too difficult but some of the challenges in both of the games tend to be either annoying or frustrating (Furnance Fun and Canary Mary)

overhyped furryshit

fucking nostalgiafaggots

Haha. Assblasted steveshitter.

back to autismcraft

I found this hilarious, specifically George's death because it wasnt Banjo’s fault. He miscalculated where he’d land.

autism as an insult while defending the game about puzzle pieces

Yes they did

HRMFF
HRMFF
HRMFF
HRMFF

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click clock wood > mad monster mansion > treasure trove cove > rusty bucket bay > freezeezy peak > clanker's cavern > gobi's valley > mumbo's mountain > bubblegloop swamp

He probably plays Hyperdimension Shitunia.

OH MY GOD IM CRYING RIGHT

PLEASE DONATE TO MY STREAM

Tooie is tiresome, confusing turd
Kazooie is simple masterpiece

DK64 is even worse than Tooie

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why is there so much fucking swimming in banjo kazooie

banjo kazooie is, dare i say it, better than super mario 64

much better, yes.

Only in world design since Mario64 levels didn't really have anything to go on at that point. As far as actual objectives and how Mario controls Mario 64 is way better.

Time to watch this for the third time.

youtube.com/watch?v=6QirF_ALgNQ
I find this better than some whiny faggot I like simplicity better DXXX

>glover
Look I remember playing it a bunch as a kid too, but that game was atrocious. The entire game was more or less one giant escort mission where your escort was the very thing you need to do literally anything from attacking to progressing to moving, and the movement was frustrating as hell. The only good thing I remember from the game was the final boss fight but everything leading up to it is a blur of frustration.

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Zoomer spotted.