DUSK

What dramma?

The game offers me no incentive to play aggressively, that's the problem. If the game is more fun when played a certain way, then the game should push you into playing that way instead of allowing me to play like a bitch and still not die. I can and have played more aggressively, but I basically have to pretend that all these glaring flaws in the levels do not exist, and just because I'm willing to LARP an additional difficulty setting doesn't mean everyone else is, so I'll have to deal with others bitching that it encourages you to play like a bitch?

You know Vanquish lets you do all this cool shit and people still play it like a boring cover shooter? It's because while it allows you to be cuhrazy, it doesn't incentivize you at all, so the casual opinion goes like this:
youtu.be/L_UaQ0xmWNY?t=4m20s

Again, it's the developer's job to encourage more fun ways of playing, which is completely missing when you suddenly surround me with enemies everywhere, except I can backpedal into the arena entrance and shoot all enemies one by one without being surrounded and without being challenged.

Because locking the player in every room is gay. If you don't want to play like a bitch, don't play like a bitch. If you can't help it, I guess you're a natural bitch.

>It's the closest we have to an actual old-skool fps and not the arena abominations since designers are too dumb to think about enemy placements and rather just throw everything in one room and call it a day.
Your clever enemy placements mean jack shit if I can just do this
youtu.be/VA2SB-YVVjY?t=3m46s

devs being SJWs, the usual

A problem with those levels is that they're too open, which combined with your overpowered bhopping and no hitscan enemies means you can skeet past everything without anything hindering or hitting you ever, making it too easy (except for the last level because it's so full of enemies).
That's why DUSK should've softly locked you in in tight quarters more often so you can't circlestrafe everything to death. Or at least use the homing fireball wizards and scarecrows more often.

Why not save yourself the trouble and just do pacifist runs of the game instead at that point?

Except Vanquish does incentivize it in the most explicit way possible, with scoring rewards, and retards still play it like a cover shooter. The "problem" with Vanquish is that it doesn't hold the players hand and lets them discover things vital to going fast on their own, and most modern players being braindead fags didn't see this. Dusk doesn't have this, its extremely intuitive, youre super fast and mobile by default and the game constantly hypes you up into going fast and rewards bhopping. Manual saves means theres no punishment for taking risks either. Almost nobody plays it defensively besides when they have to because theyre low on HP or what have you. Playing aggressively is its own reward honestly because its fun, practically every action game and shooter can be played passively in one way or another, it doesn't matter.

I've just realized that because each level had to be doable for pacifist runs that they made levels intentionally easier and less restrictive so pacifists can run past all enemies

Arenas have always been shit when applied to every fucking fight in a game. It's what you do when you don't have the talent to integrate combat into the general design of the levels.

the correct way to do this:
>wake up enemies
>stand your ground, be in greater danger but have access to medikits, ammo, and other items
>or fall back and camp, which works for a while until you run out of ammo, in which case you have to break through the enemy mob you gathered to look for more ammo

What do you mean? That if someone knows the level by heart he can find all the secrets? When he knows where the enemies are to avoid them and prepare for the firefight? Did you even watch the video at all?

No. Look how enemy closets appear to both his left and right when he triggers the switch at the end. Now you have an encounter where you have to deal with being shot at from two sides which requires a lot more effort and skill to survive, but instead he just retreats to the arena entrance where he can position all enemies in front of him instead of being surrounded and easily take them all out one by one. If the door behind him locked, he'd be put in a tight situation and be forced to play more aggressively in order to not get overwhelmed, but because it didn't he can trivialize everything like that.

Strafejumping like a madman is actually the optimal way to play Dusk, you increase the likelihood of getting cornered and hit by sticking to the default movespeed and you reduce the effectiveness of your explosive and penetrating weapons by engaging everything separately, herding is critical for ammo conservation and also to get the most out of powerups.

If you're adopting a defensive playstyle in this game then you genuinely don't understand its mechanics.

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Because hes playing on duskmare intruder where cheesy strategies are the name of the game due to their consistency and seeing as how much risk engaging directly would have. If not this strat hed do something else thats similar believe me.

Did the devs say if they were planning on making more levels for this?

>Why
because that's the doom/quake i.e gold standard of fps design
>It's so fucking boring and passive.
you are boring and passive.
>You know Vanquish lets you do all this cool shit and people still play it like a boring cover shooter
exactly

They're releasing a full SDK sometime this year or early next year, David Syzmanski has started working on a new game and also got promoted to creative director of New Blood.

There probably won't be any more in-house content for Dusk but Trenchbroom is their official level editor so virtually every Quake map could be ported to it.

They're putting out a new game, it's in early access right now.

Nice.

>except Vanquish does incentivize it in the most explicit way possible
>scoring rewards
Nigga please, nobody cares about scoring in Vanquish because nobody knows what your score in Vanquish even means without some rank or standard to compare it with, unlike the letter rankings at the end of each stage in virtually every other Platinum game which clearly tell you whether you've done a good job or not. If Vanquish had letter rankings, then players would come to realize that their braindead whackamole playstyle is indeed braindead. But this is allowed to persist because players are allowed to play with a whackamole playstyle and survive, so obviously they must be doing something right, especially on higher difficulties where staying outside of cover you will die under three seconds.

>Playing aggressively is its own reward honestly because its fun
While I agree with this, problem is that not everyone will get this, and that the devs should at the very least push people into playing aggressively, like nuDoom did by giving you health when you kill enemies, otherwise you get people bitching here like in the Vanquish threads that the game is boring because the game doesn't ever give them any reason to change up their playstyle.

But I don't think there's a single soul here who thinks that the game on Cero Miedo is anything but still easy
Of course you can play like a total hotshot when your margin of error is so wide amd you can get away with getting hit so often, if anything it's the lack of a difficulty setting inbetween duskmare and Cero Miedo that's missing

>Why doesn't this game ever lock you into an arena or something? It will often place a bunch of enemies in dangerous places, but more often than not I can just backpedal to the entrance of the room to avoid line of sight with all enemies, and safely take all enemies out one by one.

This is what classic shooters have mostly done since the start because it's the smart thing to do unless the AI is smart enough to follow you into a choke.

This is why locking you into a room with a bunch of enemies in it is a good idea, because in a game all about resource management, it's the only way to actually force the player to think on their feet and play aggressively.

"they should work enemies into the level design arenas are lame" is a literal meme people force solely because it was how the old games work. Every retro shooter I've played, Quake 2, RCTW, Doom 1+2, Marathon, almost every single one of them encourages a sedentary, safe playstyle because half of the metagame is carefully managing your resources and it's always safer to filter enemies through so you can think about what to use over barging in and trying to play action hero and near-guaranteeing losing a bit of health and ammo by sheer misfortune.

The best moments in all of these games are the points where the game defies that design and for whatever reason forces you to dodge fire and fight the enemy in number head-on.

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Actually, I completely forgot they're also adding some sort of NG+ mode to the game.

store.steampowered.com/app/853770/MAXIMUM_Action/
levels look kinda simple and short
>nuDoom
opinion discarded

I'd argue Vanquish punishes you far less for playing aggressively than classic shooters though. In a single aggressive slo-mo slide in Vanquish you can probably wipe out most of the enemies in line of sight, and if you do take some bad shots, THEN you can go cover shooter until you're back on your feet, and ammo is never so much of a commodity that you're going to fuck yourself over for wasting a rocket or something.

a lot of classic shooters won't a hesitate to fuck you over if you miss just a bit too much with a power weapon or take too much damage before the point where you're literally guaranteed to take damage, which makes playing aggressively and risking that all the less incentivized.

The post is arguing "there's nothing wrong with arenas and they incentivize the aggression classic shooters claim to," why are you surprised?

That's what they're going for. Supposed to use it to make action movie scenes and shit with a record function.

>*smart enough to NOT follow you into a choke

>levels look kinda simple and short
Up until (i think) may Maximum Action was the work of just one guy before partnering with New Blood so it's still pretty barebones, design-wise it's meant to be more of a hotline miami score attack style of game so I wouldn't expect sprawling levels out of it.

Dusk is getting it's own mod tools though.

It is less punishing because of the lack of long-term resource management, sure, but at the same time the regenerating health and forgiving ammo supply creates too strong of a safety net for players who aren't willing to go balls to the walls with the rocket boosting so they'll spend a lot of time behind cover, and because enemies don't nearly as aggressively discourage hiding behind cover as much as they should by spamming nades more frequently or firing projectiles that can penetrate cover, so players don't feel as threatened sitting behind cover as they continue to play whackamole unfettered.

That's why I would love to see more mechanics in shooters like these in the vein of nuDoom where being aggressive gives you material rewards. A more implicit one is the charge attack from DUSK's sword which can oneshot most enemies with zero ammo cost, but you have to get close to be able to hit with it, and you need to have 100HP or more to be able to use the charge attack in the first place, so if you learn to get hit less you can use this powerful weapon more frequently.

Are you talking about Vanquish? That game is built with scoring in mind, not only do you have things like melee kills giving more pts but the most obvious thing is meeting time bonuses for missions which disincentivize the use of cover, and your cover usage % is displayed at the end of the game in addition to that. It's very explicit. The problem with Vanquish isn't that, as I said. For a start you have the marketing which gives people the wrong idea but also mechanics like boost-dodging which is absolutely VITAL for going fast and surviving especially on god hard is obscured from the player. It's a matter of how the game is presented, rather than its mechanics.

Though as I said not all actions need to be forced or incentivized with extrinsic rewards, some things in games are simply fun to do for their own sake, playing aggressively being probably the best example of such.