Electronic Sam's latest tier list

>"trust me guys he has potential" incarnate
>fifth

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greninja is smash 4 shulk confirmed

I just want some buffs for Ridley. Framedata, weight, air speed, please.

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The tiger has some stupid good frame data on a few moves and is an absolute nightmare if the player knows Revenge or parry setups.

NOOOOOO
RICHTER AND OLIMAR WERE SUPPOSED TO BE TOP TIER

>mii sword not high tier
S o y

t. shuton

What does this mean?

Why is Doctor Mario so shit compared to Mario Mario?

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Remember when everyone said Ganon and K.rool were busted, they didn't change much, and they always sucked.
Super Heavys are slow, and the name of the game, is speed.

Slower, heavyer, shorter recovery.
Fun to play though.

slow

Ridley needs a lot
>can't angle his recovery whichever way he wants for some arbitrary reason
>suicide d-air
>solid n-air but shit air speed with short multi-jumps
>you will never land a down-b so it might as well not exist
I hope there's never an interview where Sakurai says some shit like "we put Ridley in but no one plays him!"
it's because he's dicks

Who would you say is best for online? Sounds like Lil Mac, Belmonts, and what heavies would you say? Anyone else good outside of that?

Why is Dr. Mario so much worse than Mario?

>olimar all the way in mid
wha happen, were the nerfs that bad?

Slower, heavyer, shorter recovery.
Fun to play though.

>Luigi that low
I thought people were doing mega busted combos with him, did he get nerfed?

He's probably over-correcting, a lot of this list is based on theory rather than results/experience. The recovery nerf was pretty fucking bad though.

>Shulk
>top tier
cringe

>have 6 “mains”
>They are all mid tier or below
Kill me now

Claims he has potential out the ass but nobody is using it correctly.

In this case though, greninja is popular in Japan.

to be expected of somebody with half a dozen mains

>mfw pic related is the main since Melee
feels mediocre man

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I think his kit is mostly fine. Down b may not be great but it is satisfying to land. The real kicker with it is that there's no fear in it because it's easy to dodge AND block. If it popped shields people would be more scared of it. Dair is dumb and you should be able to jump out of it. Not angling his up b properly sucks too I agree but if it helps any you can grab the ledge from much lower with it than you expect. As long as you use it when Ridley is on the same level of the ledge the downward angle won't fuck you over.

I'm worried that with how Elite smash works and people being able to cheese their way through it that it won't matter if Ridley or any other character needs buffs. "It's fine in Elite so why bother?" or some such mindset. We've had how many balance tweaks so far and the only thing Ridley has had were final smash changes. Like I give a shit about something we're gonna use 1% of the time at best.

Donkey Kong is by far the beast heavy online.
Offline they all sucks but DK is still only beaten by Bowser

Sakurai wouldn't give a shit because to him there is more than 1v1 no items. Little mac would fit the question better because he is shit in every mode no matter if items are on or off.

If you're looking for easy wins online I would recommend:
Bowser
Ganondorf
Lil Mac
Belmonts
Snake
Inkling
Pikachu or Pichu
Joker
Lunica
Wolf
C. Falcon

Smash Ultimate Shulk is Smash 4 Shulk in that case. You can actually see Greninja players doing well, although they are rare. Who the fuck is getting anything done with Shulk? We're going to be hearing people gush about how much untapped potential monado arts have for the entire life of this game.

Tiers are for queers

>pink falcon
my nigga

What happened to ZSS that makes her now considered high-tier? I know she got some buffs from the most recent patch but they were that significant?

Also, I'm fucking keking at Snake, Joker, and Wolf being considered so fucking good. From the very beginning, I fucking said that they were all going to be very, very good, borderline OP in fact, but then you motherfuckers were all like NO NO GIVE IT TIME MUH RECOVERY, etc. I know now not to listen to you fags.

Also, Ridley buffs fucking when? Samus/Dark Samus too.

Super heavies are still busted in online play

All I know is that everybody playing Snake is a fucking faggot

Why were people saying Joker was bad? Dunno about the others since I don't really like to play them but I could immediately tell that Joker was amazing.

every patch prior was definitely based off online but this latest one was pure tournament data. maybe they realized elite wasn't giving them good enough data anymore. anyways, it's a good sign, i wouldn't be surprised if ridley got a slew of buffs soon

the latest patch definitely gives hope
>Jr. actually got some solid buffs
It's a start at least

IIRC, you CAN actually jump out of down-B and manage to recovery from it, but the endlag is so great, you'll be practically at the blast zone before you can cancel out of it (assuming you full hop like once from the ledge), and barely make it back to said ledge. So it's still mostly useless but it d oes have that going for it.

But he really does need an air speed buff and at least one more jump. It's atrocious how slow he is in the air considering that he canonically flies in his own series. Even forgiving his up-B, it'd be okay if his air game were just that much better.

Also, I think down-B is actually okay but it does need a buff pretty hard. It really should pop shields.

Agreed. I didn't follow S4 but watching Shulk in this game is pretty fun when the person knows how to pull the right art and get into his groove.

Wtf were you reading? Once the game was in people's hands, Snake and wolf were guaranteed to get a good placement.

Joker will too. Its just loud roster fags who don't actually play screaming too weak/strong.

No one was saying he was bad, but I was hearing a lot of mid-tier, low mid-tier, etc. I'm not sure why. It always seemed pretty obvious to me that he was very good.

>Wtf were you reading? Once the game was in people's hands, Snake and wolf were guaranteed to get a good placement.
Right when the game came out, people were saying both were balanced because they couldn't recover for shit and saying that their zoning options weren't that good. More so Snake than wolf. I remember a LOT of people saying he was high-mid at best.

>he needs more air speed and at least one more jump
Ridley is nowhere near bad enough to get that kind of shit. If he needs anything, it's the ability to angle his up-B like Fox can.

Please tell me that cancer was only on Yea Forums. Snake's innate properties + projectile/zone game make him high tier min to even the most smooth brained.

Wolf I can get overlooking until you've gone through and stomped 75% of the roster and give the other 25% a run for its money.

>Ridley is nowhere near bad enough to get that kind of shit. If he needs anything, it's the ability to angle his up-B like Fox can.
I could go either way regarding his air game honestly. Both would do a lot to help him.

I think his side-B should get a buff as well. Give it super-armor. When he's being pressured by characters like Pichu at the ledge, give me a reversal option that'll keep them in check.

>Please tell me that cancer was only on Yea Forums. Snake's innate properties + projectile/zone game make him high tier min to even the most smooth brained.
It was damn near everywhere. It seemed incredibly obvious how good he was to me but I heard SO many Snakefags say that kind of shit, even IRL too.

>Watching impression videos on Hero and Banjo Kazooie
>high hopes and potential for the former and not so much the latter

Part of me knew this would happen to the bear and bird if they finally got in...

Peach and Daisy top tier? BAWHAHAHAHA

All of us Westfags who wanted Ridley, Dark Samus, K. Rool, and BK can all suffer together, user.

Think it'd happen to Rayman too if he ever got in?

where my ness boys at

The mii swordsman is a fucking beast

press something else than PK Fire and forward air once in a while

With what moveset?

How are Wario and Pokemon Trainer online?

I don't see PT nearly as often as I did at launch but the character is still considered to be very good, if a bit predictable.

>get them to a very high percent
>they change to Charizard
>"random" FLARE BLITZ
>see it coming from a mile away
>especially if they're off-stage
>block and punish
>proceed to win the game

Every time.

Give him one more air jump, and remove having to sweetspot with down B

Easy high tier

Can someone explain to me how come Kirby is so fundamentally bottom tier?

They have to keep him weak to balance around him being able to copy everyone.

No fucking range, nor any speed, power, or survivability to make up for it. Specials are all pure gimmicks you would never even be able to hit anybody decent with. Literally impossible to be good the way he is now.

Holy shit, I never considered this. Sakurai DID say that he got harder to balance the bigger the roster got, so maybe they aren't doing things like increasing his airspeed and power because of the potential of broken shit when it comes to his copy abilities.
I still hope that he gets a speed increase some time down the line, but this kinda puts things into perspective

That reminds me of me.

>get grabbed
>remember I can grab
>try to grab enemy
>get my ass kicked

When is the right time to use grabs?

>When is the right time to use grabs?
I'm still figuring that out myself. It's really bad playing against scrubs I'm probably overall better than but still getting grabbed a lot and being punished whenever I whiff one because they understand grabs and I don't.

>Joker
>Top tier
Hilarious. Hey, remember when Ike was broken top tier?

Based Lucina

>Joker
>easy online wins

Joker is fantastic though. Fast, great aerials, great running attack, good recovery. Then you get Arsene and kill people at 60 or shoot them with 20% projectiles

>My boy DK will forever be low tier no matter which Smash he's in

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garbage air speed and recovery, light and poor range. A good kirby can still fuck people up in this game though, but his options and mobility are still tremendously limited compared to better characters.

only in this faggots tier list. In different ones he often tends to be solid mid tier. He is great online

MK LEo being good with Joker does not maker Joker good.
He is absolutely not anything higher than mid/high mid. He crumbles without Arsene.

This retard put King K Rool below Little Mac, do you really think this list has any merit whatsoever?

>tfw arguing about tier lists as the day is long
>mfw also only play locally with anywhere from 3-8 other humans with items and final smash meters on

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Who do you think is going to be better Hero or Banjo?

He's actually better without Arsene because he's got the grappling hook.

Hard to say. Banjo looks like he has an interesting Side B. It looks like as long as he has a golden feather, he's completely invincible during the attack.

You know, competitive tier lists are all well and good but they're decided around a small group of players who play the game very differently from the way we play it. According to Sakurai the win rates online are roughly the same for just about every character which is the kind of perfect balance that every game should strive for.

>You know, competitive tier lists are all well and good but they're decided around a small group of players who play the game very differently from the way we play it.
It's not that they play differently than us, it's that they play a lot more closed lists than we do.
It's literally Adon from Street Fighter 4 multiplied by like 50 characters.

Ike was never considered broken. People just thought his nair was dumb

>Ike was never considered broken
Nice revisionism, retard.

>Remember when Ike was broken?
No. After his first big win with him, Leo said on multiple occasions Ike isn't actually that good. He was essentially saying "I'm just that much better than you" and no one listened to him

Not if you weren't some shitter. Most pros at best considered Ike top tier. Joker already had people calling him top tier like Dabuz who made a video about it on may 3rd

Huh, almost like it's the same situation with Joker right now.

Legit thought this guy was gay, but then he gets a wife out of nowhere.

>What happened to ZSS that makes her now considered high-tier? I know she got some buffs from the most recent patch but they were that significant?
Marss never dropped her (really, that's it). Everyone was quick to say she sucks because she lost her uair>uair>upb grab autocombo and her paralyzer moves are admittedly significantly worse, but by having someone competent still playing her people got to see she still has many good tools and is pretty much the fastest character in the game

>Esam is a literal real life soi wojak holy shit
oof

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"Wife"

>Makes a whole vid about how good and slept on WFT is
>Still mid tier

Precisely how I feel about her. Really fucking good, but some wierd aspects that keep her from being consistent.

If they just made her grab a little further and gave her some good options against small characters, she'd be high tier.

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im so glad im not a tier list whore, the game is so much more enjoyable.
imagine thinking youre good enough to the point that tier lists matter

It's honestly hard to be a bad character in this game when all your attacks are disjointed.

>snake first
lol

Arsene is fucking ridiculous making Joker easy mode.
(you)

Why does Nintendo never buff zelda, its either a nerf for no good reason or just completely ignored

She is very annoying to fight, I'm glad she is not a strong character.

>Not a single major tournament played with the 3.1 patch
>the next patch with hero is coming out really soon
>still decides to make a 3.1 tier list

Leo never said Joker is overrated. Last interview with hungrybox he said Joker is top 10. When he was labbing Joker back in the beginning of May he said Joker is broken and now he's saying he hasn't optimized his Joker to the fullest.

*blocks your online experience*

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>the next patch with hero is coming out really soon
? No date was given? Just Summer. Friendly reminder that Summer means all the way into September.

Its not like its hard. Just take your 3.0 and adjust accordingly

That would be really fucking stupid if this character who looks practically finished did not release until September. He'll be in July, and early July in order to give people time to practice him before EVO.

I'd be fine if they removed her neutral b and just fixed her moves hitboxes. She's a light ass character that's slow and requires immense fucking precision but has multiple kill moves.

Do you have a source for your retarded claim?
Why do you people set false pretenses for yourselves only to be disappointed later?

Hey, I predicted Banjo would be announced at E3 and I was not disappointed, I think you can take my word.

Chrom should be higher than lucina. Chrom is faster, stronger, and has one of the best kill confirms in the game with jab attack cancel back air. His recovery is bad, but on most stages it doesn't really matter considering his aerial drift helps him make it back to the stage if he has a double jump. Onstage, his disadvantage state is way better because he can mix up his landings with b-reverse neutral b. He doesn't need to even edgeguard because his ledgetrapping is some of the best in the game. Lots of people, from mkleo to mew2king (who's been playing ultimate nonstop with the mvg team) thinks lucina is overrated.

Ryu, Roy and Lucas were banned from Evo despite being released a month before the tournament

>Chrom
>gets a bit of water in his face from mario
>dies

Oh, well fuck them then. In that case Hero is being released next week.

>Robin bottom tier
I believe it, how did they make him even worse than 4, it's incredible. I love his moveset and design but he got fucked over in the balance department.

>3.1 diddy kong
>good-ass recovery
>reliable kill move that's easy to set up into
>low tier

>The Hero looks to be Robin but better
Sucks to be Robin I guess.

>Then you get Arsene
Arsene?
Couldnt you have picked a STRONGER Persona?

I'll still use Robin because only Robin has the Edward Elric color.

Is this based off tourney data or just ranking based off quasi-arbitrary perceptions?

Almost every echo is right next to each other. Ken is basically a different character and only has the echo for the sake of "legacy branding" so that's understandable.
Roy's safer moveset and in an infighting situation, the ability to kill at lower percentages is understandably a little more valuable than Chrom's all around explosive power and reach, but even then for Chrom being really the most different true echo fighter nobody really ranks them that far apart.

But even in Smash 4 the difference between Lucina and Marth in terms of placement wasn't so marked. What the hell is it this time about Lucina being an even safer, even more braindead Marth that's yielding that massive difference in results across all of Ultimate's balance pataches? Spacing isn't as big a deal this time, I get that, but still there's 30 characters between the two on this list.

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marth's tipper is insanely difficult to land this time, to the point of impracticality

Alright, simple enough.

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No. Leo always struggled more with Ike. He lost to Light and Nairo at Glitch, Samsora once at Genesis, and Salem more recently.
Even his Lucina was brought to game 5 by Samsora and Light, and lost to Tweek, Mr. R, and ESAM.
Now the only people who can challenge his Joker are Marss and Tweek, and they still lost. Obviously we still need more data to tell for sure, but Joker has to be top 10 at the absolute minimum.

can't wait for him to be top tier

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>Shulk at fifth
Cringe

no mkleo was just good and it didnt even last long. unlike joker, after like one prior set samsora adjusted and beat leos ike

We back to P2W DlC

There's a Dragalia Lost FEH crossover? Can you still get Veronica?

How the fuck am I supposed to decide between him, Erdrick, and Luminary?

P-plant gang where w-we at guys

>posting the worst hero

people will cling to the MUH POTENTIAL meme until the very end. Same thing happened in Smash 4. Always rated as top or very high high-tier all while never getting any results at all

just play the best one
this one

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you are also allowed to use one of the other 11 top tier characters

But Dragon Quest 3 is my favorite DQ game.

>le shulk is top tier meme
Meanwhile his best player switched to joker and his results are still average. End the meme

>completely ignoring Solo
FUCK YOU

>little Mac
Not even with online “helping” him.

The problem with Ike is that he absolutely shits on mid tier characters while being mediocre against other top tier characters. As an Incin main, I'd rather go up against Lucina than Ike.

Wait, then why are you having trouble deciding?

>K. Rool in bottom tier
>Bowser and Dedede any lower than high tier
Imagine being this salty.

>mkleo styles on people with joker
>OMG TOP TIER

honestly it's getting embarassing, the guy has won tournaments with like 5 different characters now, it's time to face the music and understand it's not who he plays, but the guy himself

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Luigi is not that fucking bad. Elegant has gotten some good results, at the very least he should bd mid tier.

Also nice to see these reactionary fucks put Joke at top 3 just cause Leo did good with him lmao. Can't wait to see him fall off by the time Hero comes out.

>he fell for incineroar is shit memeposters

Everyone had Joker at least high tier before that happened anyway

not really

It's not really a meaningful functional difference from the western-style sword users of the other DQ heroes, but given the eastern flair of Dragovia is Gohan Ocho Smash's first katana user?
>inb4 but Corrin's Yato is classified as a katana in FE
You know what I mean.

>gets F-aired off stage and dies because no recovery
nothing personnel... kid

yeah really

these are not mutually exclusive

>Roar in mid
Glad to see he's not being slept on so hard. Dunk set-ups are tough but one of the best spikes in the game.

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DK and Luigi really should not be in the same tier as Little Mac, but what do i know? I'm not a professional smasher

unless you're playing against someone who stands still, Incineroar fights back. here's a hint - you know that thing about ridley's nair? Yeah, incineroar's nair is much better. In fact, Incineroar's aerials outside of dair are amazing.

He's essentially what Little Mac should have been - a character who gets difficult when recovering but is actually amazing when fighting on the ground.

His weapon looks more like a shamshir

I have never not three stocked an Incineroar online.
I just hit im twice and then pick him up and throw him off stage

t. Donkey Kong

>joker top 2
lmfao

>could have got issac, elma, anyone else
>got a bottom tier pot plant

thanks sakurai

Leo could barely do anything with Greninja, Marth, or even Wolf. He isn't some god who carries every character

These are really your best two suggestions? Isaac and Elma?

Can we stop pretending Lucario is that low?

Is the lag REALLY that much of an issue?

Because she only deserves nerfs. The character is fundamentally broken, in that her playstyle is completely anti-fun and spammy.

She’s the character you play when you want to win but also don’t want to move at all.

I love playing as him because he's well balanced but at the same time it feels satisfying.

He also only got 33rd with Joker at Umebura.

Hasn't he lost to Dr. Mario and Zelda as Pikachu. How can he rank them that low or Pikachu that high after those loses?

The fuck happened to Luigi?

>Olimar dropped all the way to mid tier after nerfs
>Joker top 2

Lmao how reactionary are these people?

Esam is a huge faggot with huge bias towards things he likes and super negative on things he doesn't like. Why anybody takes this clown seriously is beyond me.

Yes. It's less that stuff requires frame perfect timing and more that Smash online is total dogshit.
A given match with randos has about a 1/4 chance of being actually unplayable. And I don't mean "3 fames behind" unplayable, I mean you are spending more time lagging than you are playing.
>Just get a wired connection :)
I have been using one since day 1, doesn't help when my opponent is playing using the wifi connection of the McDonalds down the road.

I'm more wondering how DH got up.

I used to think tier lists don't matter for casual play but you do see the difference in quickplay quickly. Be prepared to accept lower GSP for lower tier characters.

>top two characters are pure aids and 0 fun to fight against
I would be surprised, but I am not

I guess you want another fire emblem character, 10 isn't enough huh

Atrocious disadvantage state, exploitable recovery, and grabs have been nerfed from Smash 4.

Who would you describe as someone that is "fun to fight against"?

Catch this back air bitch boy

Characters that he can beat.

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yes it fucking is

>You: *suggests two anime sworsdmen*
>"Wow those suggestions are shit"
>You: WOW I GUESS YOU LIKE FIRE EMBLEM CHARACTERS HUH HUH HUH
Absolute brainlet.

This immsensley. He practically said nothing bad about Pac Man and G&W outside of the fact that he hated him, but he put Pac Man below other characters he said still had numerous flaws and G&W in mid tier.
He straight up said Pac Man has one of the best matchup spreads in the game, and he put him at the bottom of high tier.

Characters that dont just spam grenades or rely on cheap gimmicks. So everyone else in top tier for example

The biggest projectile spamming characters aren't even top tier but it's the one people bitch about the most. The melee only characters are high tier because pros know how to approach, only a shitter complains about a boomerang or an arrow hitting them.

>The biggest projectile spamming characters aren't even top tier
Snake is literally number 1. The only attacks he uses is up tilt and running. Otherwise its all projectiles

IDK why they hardcore nerfed Olimar but none of the other top tiers. Forgive me if anything but rushdown and snake is actually good in a smash fighting game.

One exception. I'm just tired of getting greentexted every time I say YL is my main.

>Inkling
>top 10

Inkling is maybe top 25 at best.

That's not true. Little mac is great in every mode that isn't competitive.

epic bomb arrow faggots

Learn to approach

Says the guy that can not approach so he plays YL

>Fox is high tier in every game.

Shouldn't they rotate him out? Debuff him and give his spot to someone else.

>Joker is 2nd highest
I thought consensus was Joker was mid tier at best?

Also, did the buffs really help Ryu and Ken that much?

Nah Fox is based and also not that easy to play

I'm pretty tired of the "Sheik is alright" meme. Sheik is fucking terrible. Every time a player brings her out she disappoints. You can say "she has a good neutral" or whatever all you want but she has to do that like 80 times to maybe get a kill. There is literally no reason to play as her.

Wolf's there

>Little Mac now Low instead of Bottom

I thought tourneyfags hated his air attacks?

VoiD and Ramzy do pretty good with her, and VoiD hadn't publicly played Shiek in months before pulling her out in a tourney and doing decent. You can't say she's been a disappointment if she's done nothing major when played by a top player. Let her meta develop

nothing feels better than chaining a few of samus f-airs together though.
Satisfying sound effect

Was Sheik considered OP back when she could turn into Zelda?

no because zelda was always much worse than sheik

People joked that Melee Sheik's worst move as down-b since, outside of a few very situational cases, Zelda was the inferior character by a mile and a half.

Yeah, until they fall out of the last hit.

FUCK

Consensus from the general public yes, but salty crying top players all like putting him as top tier to save face for getting stomped on by Leo's Joker, just like they did with Ike and Cloud.
The thing is, Leo is the best player, and Joker is the first character he's truly clicked with. No one can pilot Joker like Leo does, which is why he's high tier at most.

What happened from earlier tier lists or from last game?

Maybe retard consensus. From the day he came out I remember people seeing him as a comfortable top tier

>comfortable top tier
I meant high tier

no one can pilot Lucina like Leo does either, and yet everyone agrees that Lucina is top 5

Dr Mario has a hilt mechanic for no real reason, which doesnt fit his kit at all

samsora only beat leos ike once, and then leo won the tournament anyway

>my boy is finally good after all this time
Feels good.

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Guarantee no one in this thread has gotten a top 3 placement at any of their locals.

What's a hilt mechanic?

yeah they only played like two or three sets ike vs peach.after sam won Leo switched to lucina

>Finally find two characters I have fun playing with
>They're both bottom tier

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this is the worst tier list of any game ever made

this tier list is ass dont worry user

Unless your wife is being held hostage until you win a Smash major, don't worry about it.

If you "finally" found them... that can only be K. Rool and Piranha Plant, right?

How come Belmonts low-mid?

How come DK low?

How come K Rool bottom?

Doc and Isabelle

He was B-tier in Smash 4 tho

Nothing, he's better than all super heavy. Esam is just retarded.

OY GUV' !

>falcon that low

You faggots don't see the storm coming.

In theory you should because he always announces his moves.

He just needs his Smash 4 cyclone back, and his grab...

>Ridley

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>no OOS options
>no landing options
>some of the worst ledge options in the game
>worst recovery of all heavies
>shieldbreaker is reactable
definitely the best heavy user LMAO

Mario clawing his way back up one way or the other.

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I think as time goes on it's become clear that Bowser is better. The rest are debatable but I don't think he's low.

they should at least make his grab actually grab ledge... yknow, like every other tether grab in the game?

It's not my fault your character sucks, user, and you know it.

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I agree that Bowser is as strong or stronger. Can't decide yet.

All super heavy in the game have big flaws. Not sure what yo uare trying to prove here, you can make the same kind of lsit with DDD, Ganon, Krool and all the other.

>All super heavy in the game have big flaws.
And some have bigger flaws than others.

Yes and DK have also a lot of big advantage that make up for that. Some advantage that the others don't have.

list his advantages then

I don't understand why it doesn't. It's literally a suction cup. Why on earth does it just bounce off?

>even considering buffing luigi
i can see greenfags are still asshurt about youtu.be/-UYQKllXAP4

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>Joker isn't brok-

especially considering the whole point of it in luigi's mansion 3 is to stick to things

>trying to prove
That his flaws are worse than every other heavy's flaws barring Rool

So king of 64
>Pikachu

King of melee
>Fox

King of brawl
>Snake

Are all in their rightful places in ultimate I see I feel like inkling should be the as tier face of ultimate honestly

Half of that lists is recovery shit and DDD probably has the best of those out of any super heavy

I don't think Joker is broken necessarily, but he does have some bullshit that he probably shouldn't have.
>Being able to hold counter out for so long (not op, just annoying)
>Respawning with Arsene meter already filling up
>Punishing counter with grabs, throws and pummels still fills Arsene meter a lot more than it probably should anyways

It's so annoying that pichu is so high.. I felt his whole inclusion was to act as a kind of handicap.

Like saying you can beat someone with a character with weak attacks and racking damage on themselves to gloat.

If you want to handicap yourself there's quite literally a handicap option in the settings.

Looking back now, Smash 4 is kinda more entertaining to watch than Ultimate

>Snake and Joker at the top
>Shulk in top 5
>Peach not in top 8
>Olimar in mid tier
>Little Mac not in bottom tier
This is an objectively bad list

your character is only rated high because of its """POTENTIAL"""
Never ever any tournament success

Its so fucking slow

Ultimate is too fast. I legitimately cannot keep up.

Mewtwo in low mid? It cannott be.

Almost every pro player says Peach is the best character in the game, but thanks for your input user

its not about the speed numbnuts

>Marss challenges Leo’s Joker
Uhhh, user...

>No cool tech
>No skillful combos
>No variation in playstyle
>Not S tier because of their potential in the right hands, but because their kit is just flat out better than everyone elses

Why is this allowed?

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He is though. He barely played the first two, and his Wolf was probably the best looking Wolf yet.

marss was one stock away from beating leo at momocon, he cucked himself at smash n splash tho

Shut the fuck up boomer

you literally posted Marth and Fox in Melee

why shouldnt it be?

>king of brawl
>snake

I'm guessing you never played against Meta Knight since even with your bros people would forbid anyone from playing him.

Peach is still top tier but even right before the nerfs there was basically no good player saying she was still the best in the game

Who wasn’t saying Peach was the best besides Ethernet Samuel here? It was pretty much unanimous my dude

I think you're kind of looking back at it with rose-tinted glasses because you've gotten used to Ultimate's characters.

>E-Celeb shit is okay as long as it's Smash E-Celebs

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Ken is ridiculous now. Strong Jab -> True Shoryu is a kill confirm at like 60.

Its certainly not about technique with 4

its about decision making, more planning goes into each move

Which tier is the viability cutoff point? High?

tbf Mac got a shitload of buffs in 3.1.
His disadvantage and recovery is still complete trash but his neutral is fucking godly now if you don't just camp the shit out of him.

yeah, I could see Mid doing some upsets, but high and above is "taking tournaments" territory

>kirby still low
this some ol' bullshit

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viability for what? winning a big tournament?

He was really good in 4 though. Also he's not this bad in Ultimate, ESAM's just a retard

for professional tourneys its certainly high. Cant remember anyone doing well with anyone from Medium downwards. Funniest thing is Bowser dunking on inkling 3-0 three times in a row, but thats basically it. For online or something honestly everything works

Depends on your definition of viable, people have done very well with some of the characters in this list's mid tier.

there's definitely difference between widespread of usage and actually winning the end. VGC for example has tons of Groudon yet not one actually won.

In this game I'd say the mid tier but it's pretty matchup specific. I think in general mid-tier characters are pretty good characters but they can get gatekept by select top/high tiers.

bros...
youtube.com/watch?v=haWMqPr7I1U

It's true though, the only things Kirby has that keeps him better from his absoultely sorry mess of a melee state compared to the rest of the cast is his early combo game and trip into fsmash kill confirm

All Kirby needs to be good are some mobility buffs. His kit is fine otherwise.

>Fine otherwise
Try playing Kirby and using your airdodge off stage, I dare you.

For a huge regional yes. But there you're talking about all the best players in the game playing the best characters in the game. But when it comes to smaller tournaments, even medium sized ones with one or two pros, even low tiers could win it. Combo breaker wasn't the hardest competition since most pros were at momocon but it was still a major tournament and game and watch won it.

>tfw metal gear fan
>can't play snake without getting insulted of being a tier fag
>tfw most snake players never played metam gear
FUCK

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I do think that interrupting rebel's guard with a grab should decrease the meter, like how interrupting Cloud's charge decreases limit. Also it should charge less when he gets hit regularly, like make it raise a little per hit rather than based on damage %.

I don't think the idea of rebel gauge is terrible unlike a lot of people. He needs to take damage to charge it, so at least it forces him to approach and take risks unlike Cloud's and WFT, who can camp and still gain their power ups. But as it is he just gets it too easily, rebel's guard or not.

Joker main btw

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>caring what others think
>caring what others play
theyre insulting you for the wrong things but you still deserve to be insulted

his rebel guard just needs adjustments - make it so that it only charges through damage (and greatly when struck with the move) rather than natural growth

Hello, i'm a garbage-tier character yet I only receive nerfs, and the the Hero looks like he plays like me, but better
it's not fair bros...fuck Sakurai

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people are still going to whine about him being "broken"

Huh, I didn't think about how Isabelle's kit cuts through Snake's gameplan like butter.

literally just corrin without the feet, get this garbage out of my sight

Why is the plant so low? Is the character even played online?

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why even play Isabelle when Villager exists

absolute garbage aerials and piddling ground game so he has almost no approach. No synergy with any moves, lacks kill confirms and big damage combos. I still like playing him though.

Daisy/peach have always had a case of shulk syndrome, where everyone is looking at things like frame data and combo potential and saying, wow she's incredible best in the game, but ignoring the reality of things like matchups that. Make her combos crazy hard to learn. I honestly believe that peach/daisy are so technical that it actually brings them lower on the tier list. I mean compare her to the 2nd and third most technical characters snake and olimar, and the amount of work you have to learn to get results with those 2 isn't nearly as much. Tldr peach/daisy is lower high tier because the effort is not worth reaching the potential. Especially when i can play snake or lucina and spam super safe options to still win matches easily. This is coming from someone who plays both daisy and lucina.

Game is about matchups. The lower you get the more bad matchups you have. Few characters are solo viable in this game, Lucina is a big one.

Tweek, Leo, Samsora, Cosmos all started talking about how she wasn't that great. You really can't be the best in the game with losing matchups when there are characters that literally don't have any.

>he doesnt know

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Is Pichu that good even after the nerfs?

>want to main snake because MGS1 is one of my favorite games
>hate his playstyle

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This. He’s this game’s joke character like Melee Pichu.

yea, even still

then before must have been a freaking monster because I read that patchlog and any other character with so many nerfs would become unusable.

Metal gear characters really are always s tier in crossover games.
raiden was s tier in ps all star and snake still is s tier in ultimate.

Let 'em. At least I'll know I styled on them rather than just eating a smash attack raw and getting arsene at 30% to win.

Also, semi-unrelated, but I just picked up Ryu and it's bullshit that Joker can eat several simultaneous smash attacks with his down B, but one uncharged DORYAH can beat Focus. The move already loses to multi-hits and grabs, it should be able to tank readable, big damage smash attacks.

Im fine with that because playing him at parties still pisses people off and it is funny as shit

pichu is all about steamrolling, he cant stay in neutral for too long. all the nerfs really did was make his neutral worse and left the steamrolling pretty much intact

explain yourself

That's Smash patch balance changes in a nutshell.

>oh wow, look at all those nerfs! This character is so dead.
>THIS GAME'S WINNER IS...DIDDY KONG!

>throw Banana
>F-Smash

>down Tilt
>U-Smash

based Diddy is back

>rising fair whiffs on mario height characters or shorter
>rising bair does too

Since we're all complaining about characters being rated too highly in here, I'd like to point out Yoshi. Everyone is saying he's high tier and absolutely no lower, and yet there are zero results. They said the same thing in Smash 4.

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Nobody wants to out themselves in front of thousand of strangers, so Yoshi remains in the closet

Predicting another case of Shulk where he is mediocre and requires 2k+ IQ to reach his full potential.

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>Robin that low when he actually won a tournament
>and against a Lucina of all characters
Absolutely retarded tier list

who

a tournament in your backyard doesnt count

>people caring this much about tier lists
have. sex.

>youtu.be/VudgwuqHvGY
Cope more, faggot

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a battle between literal whos in front of 10 people.
Its backyard tier

His usefulness goes up, but then so does everyone else's. Hes like that Samus player who tries to cling to run out of the chaos and then shoot charged shots when everyone is distracted. Except his power shot is his hyper armor. Star, final smash, etc everyone does it just as well or better.

Fix his recovery and hes at least decent. nothing short of rework can save him.

Wasn't he only garbage in Melee and Brawl? Medium+ isn't that bad.

Imagine paying to win.

Wow thats so incredibly wrong

really revealing your newfaggotry by not recognizing xeno or mr e

Perhaps, but I won't take Yea Forums's assessment right as well.

Stinkling was the face of S tier for about two months because people overhyped the shit out of it. Fat boy spic in particular overhyped that uthrow to uair kill confirm. But the hype died down when people discovered it wasn't the best in the game and that it's only kill confirm outside of it's roller has a tight window of execution and it's not easy to pull off. People also got a lot better with dealing with Stinkling bullshit like it's roller. Their ink mechanic also keeps them somewhat in check as in you can't spam moves over and over like wolf can and the character also lacks KO power outside of few moves. I've seen a game and watch live close to 200% against a Stinkling player.

Plus it's not that well represented outside of Cosmos and 2 Japanese players at top competitive level. And it's best player hasn't been doing too hot. He failed to get into top 8 at momocon and smash n splash, he was humbled by a bowserchad player and progidy gave him a big wallop with his Mario and he was so humiliated that he swore off tournaments until EVO

You can You me again when she gets something worthwhile

and you and (You) me when youve lurked for more than 5 minutes

Little mac got some sick combos in the latest patch with the changes to his jab

>not even top 50 in the latest tournament that was worth something
>ssbwiki.com/Tournament:Smash_'N'_Splash_5
oh nonononononono Robin bros

>because of the jab buff, he's no longer the worst character in the game
feels good

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When your moves are strongest the closer you are. Like, Roy for example.

>singular tournament
>worth something
youre not good at data

Your entire point is that robin is good because of a single literal WHO tournament

I remember watching Sol Labbing new combos the day oof the patch, not only the jabs are combo tools now, but upsmash is better for trades and Dtilt is a great shield poke, it reaches further than your Ftilt

robin was also used in top 8 of momocon, and there are a couple robins that regularly make top 64 at nationals. also your insistence that xeno is a literal who tournament really shows how unseasoned you are.
take my advice, lurk before you open your retarded mouth

Top64 means nothing. We had a bowser placing 9th.
Robins use in momocon is also only thanks to Nairo who used her once while also using other meme characters like Dark Pit before going back to his beloved Neutral A lady.
Shit tier character, will never have any success

okay fag, deny the evidence if you want but dont be too surprised when you start seeing more and more robins creeping into the top echelon

Epic evidence of Robin doing nothing