Programmers aren't workers

Stop shilling your faggy union, nigger.

just develop games on your own, working overhours to give golstein more scheckels was your own decision.
you can do it right now. open a thread that says "looking for people to work on a project". stop crying for symphaty.

I work at a grocery store to pay rent while getting my MBA and I'm somehow union. If there's a fucking union for minimum wage cashiers, I don't see why unions for practically anything else are far-fetched.

False, you clearly don't work with an established union.
Unions aren't commie

Not that user, but I'm part of a state organized union that is mandatory for everyone who isn't a business owner.

They don't get shit done either.
In fact they are mostly blocking any political process based on the party ideology which is currently in the unions high seats (mostly the reds obviously).

Also it costs money.

GAME DEVS RISE UP

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Why would you want to have employees who don't want to work for you?

Honestly it would be best for these devs if they left and formed their own studios, they'd get everything they would want.

Can someone give me tl;dr version of the problem if there is any?

Well my elective teachers union is very effective and helpful

Journalists trying to stir up shit to stay relevant.

Retard, because they need a job and can't constantly move across the country

Of the problem with successfully unionizing or problems in the workplace that makes workers want to unionize?

>teachers union

Are you US american by any chance?
Cause they try everything not to burn their fingers with that shit. Especially since that "no kid left behind" policy.

That's a pretty american thing. Around here teacher's unions are both despised and ineffective.

This. Quit bumping the thread, retards.

So if union actually forms, members are just gonna be mostly "narrative designers" or some other title that just tell that they're completely useless and hired just for quotas.

>problems in the workplace that makes workers want to unionize
This, what are the problems there? If you work overtime aren't you supposed to be paid for that at any place anyway?

yes

Programmers actually know the crunch from every other job.
It's faggots like the writers who are stressed out because they have to work in an actual job.

The problem with trying to unionize at the moment is actual valuable employees that are overworked are less than willing to join a union with all the bloat positions that are part of the reason they are so heavily worked in the first place.

"I work in an industry manufacturing [product], each year the business spends $500,000 on maintenance costs, $2,000,000 on materials and necessary expenditures, $500,000 is invested back into the business and $1,000,000 is spent on labor, yet we make $6,000,000 a year which means $2,000,000 is going towards people who did nothing to help produce [product]"

>If you work overtime aren't you supposed to be paid for that at any place anyway?
Yes you are, yet "crunch time" traditionally results in increased overtime with no additional pay.

US teacher Unions are major blocker of education reform and need to be destroyed. Government workers never should be under a union.

People don't like being forced to work crunch hours even when they are being paid. I can't remember what their other demands are though so go google it

Wage theft is unethical but that's not what unions are able to actually tackle. They're not that alpha. However I do see some indie devs forming worker cooperatives. Imagine if the next CD Projekt Red is a coop. That'd be crazy.

Good thing you are putting that in quotes, making clear it's just the simplified naive opinion of the idiots that run these union campaigns and not your own.

Good summary user.

The fuck are you talking about, the problem with education are bureaucrats and dipshits like Betsy DeVos

>waah I don't wanna put the minimum amount effort into my work

Jesus Christ how can people be this lazy

>do more actual work than video game industry workers
>average schedule is 13 12 hour shifts with the 14th day off due to shitty regulations
>do this for months at a time
>some people will leave a job if it drops to 6 10's
>most people will leave a job if it drops below 6 10's
This whole complaint is probably instigated by women and boys. The "gender pay gap", which is actually starting to favor females, is misunderstood because women don't want to work as many hours and the gap considers the yearly salary. I mean, if we get the same hourly rate, why shouldn't I make double the amount you make if I'm working double the hours?

For any boys complaining about working too many hours, just wait till you are in your 30's then you will stop complaining. Whether it means getting brakes from wife/children, getting to afford a luxury vehicle, or you just start to realize that you don't get so tired anymore. It will kick in unless you are just completely worthless.

Nor are management/shareholders, so they're even steven.

>in your 30s
>dont get so tired anymore

user, I think you mixed something up there.
That aint how that works.

Don't talk that way about bosses you freaking commie.

Make AA games you twats. Or how about you try to make the games play as good as they look? I'm tired of these shallow as fuck games we get nowadays.

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>Make their own studios.
Did you miss that part, retard? But seriously you can work wherever you want. If you have a shitty job I can only have so much sympathy, if it was that bad you'd be doing everything to get a new one.

Who says any of us have to live by societal expectations? None of us are getting married. Open your eyes, grandpa.

Technically you have less energy in your 30's, but you are more relaxed so you aren't expending energy like a hyper retard. To me, an 8 hour and 12 hour workday feels pretty similar. Hell, since I'm not a morning person I even feel more energetic when I'm done working than when I start working. You are also more prone to knocking out after both types of shifts if you aren't doing something to keep you stimulated.

>if it was that bad you'd be doing everything to get a new one.
this is true, but the first step involves killing porky

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>hey why did you list marriage along with other things
Some people get married user. I didn't say you have to get married, I just listed it as a potential reason guys like to work. I don't know you personally so I can't just limit my post to ONLY things that apply to you like the special snowflake you are.

>user has never taken basic civics
Socialism isn't a difficult concept. When you're done cleaning your room, read a book.
>Socialism: The workers owns the vidya industry.

Retards think workers are only guys in overalls carrying a lunch pail who work three shifts a day at the dick sucking factory.

That's like saying in democracies the power lies with the people.

It's a sham and in practice nobody cares what the theory says.

True. Workers are not slaves. Programmers are.

>workers are only guys in overalls carrying a lunch pail who work three shifts a day at the dick sucking factory

Sounds entirely correct though.

Holy fuck, woke and based and DARE I say redpilled

>Created and led by SJWs
>Thinking they're going to be fair
Programmers are not falling for that.

Going based of Merriam Webster, socialism is defined as governmental ownership where there is unequal pay based off the amount of hours you work. Don't correct someone for being right unless you want to show how much of a fool you are. Socialism is a collective of different ideas where people want communism without the bad name behind it so they just pick random capitalist ideas to sprinkle on top of their communistic views.

>he thinks he gets to decide

Except that's not how democracies work, and consequently why the only time democracy was tried at scale the Athenians basically immediately went right back to despotism. But again, books.

>but you are more relaxed so you aren't expending energy like a hyper retard
untrue
>Hell, since I'm not a morning person I even feel more energetic when I'm done working than when I start working
this on the other hand is true
also doing nothing all day can be equally tiring to working all day
And it's almost like the workers create some kind of............ GOVERNING structure....... to manage their joint ownership? Holy fuck we might be onto something here

>that's not REAL socialism though!
>that's not a REAL democracy though!

Like clockwork.

sorry antifa bro not today.

>b-b-but Merriam Webster's 8 word definition!!!
>what is political theory?
Literal child's argument. The purpose of socialism in the workplace is to have employee ownership. Period. Communism is a command economy where the state dictates what is being produced and quotas of production.

>untrue
You've never seen the overachieving 20 year old at a work place? Older workers are usually more laid back in their approach. They understand that shit will either get done or not get done. They understand that when the boss says "I need this done in an hour", that boss will wait his happy little ass off until you get it done at a reasonable speed. They understand that when you go to a job site and get a 10 hour job done in 4 hours, you don't call up the boss saying you are done.

I assume you are thinking along the lines of stress or something for why you think they are less relaxed?

Not him but you are a mouthbreathing retard. He is right and you are too stupid to realize you got btfo.
Not that I expected a reply remotely intelligent from a socialist but still disappointing beyond my already low expectations.

>t-the dictionary is WRONG
>only MY very specific definition for a word, when language is entirely based on the way people as a whole use it, is correct

Man, you sure do like the taste of employer dick don't you

>Commie fist
Fuck that.

>I took a class that limits my thought pattern to a single thing
Get a better education. I used Merriam as a single example where you are wrong. Again though for your thought impaired brain, Socialism isn't a single idea. There are multiple ways to implement Socialism.

>The purpose of socialism in the workplace is to have employee ownership.
No, the point of socialism in the workplace is to somehow achieve a more equally paid society. It seeks to be a middle ground between communism and capitalism. Again, get a better education. Maybe a non-liberal education since your teacher showed a HUGE amount of bias instead of being unbiased as a teacher should be...

anything that involves honor and merit based on faith will always be deposed for a cheap power grab. People are just too simple minded and predictable. We've been over this for 2000+ fucking years and yet for some reason god dammit normies still don't get the concept

If so why would that be a problem

Man, you sure do like the taste of ramen noodles don't you

Yeah I know my insult wasn't as bad because I made it real instead of saying something moronic like you

>and can't constantly move across the country

The Rise of the Triad remake was made by a team that lived all over the world and developed in a cheap cloud environment. "Baaw I don't want to move!" isn't an excuse anymore.

Fittingly, a room temperature IQ-level understanding of education in America

Hello you seem to be confused
Read these things:

>socialism
In this short summary comrade stalin outlines the five known relations of production. You can search for 'five main types' to find the section, and read about them, though reading the whole thing is recommended, it might unfuck your conceptions.
marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm

>equality
Here is comrade lenin addressing the liberal idea of equality and why capitalists (who are liberals) always become confused when historical materialists start speaking.
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/mar/11.htm

Where does it say programmers arent counted for this?

>marxists.org
Yeah and I'm sure you'd also relate to Feministblog.com for the definition of "sexism" or fuckwiypipo.com for the definition of "racism".

The dictionary is how the normal human world sees something.

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EA would still compete with movies and donut shops. Even then there are games that make far more money than EA games. They wouldn't run the industry. Even when Nintendo did they STILL found competition from sega.

No wonder you have to work so many hours user, you sound pretty fucking retarded to be doing anything with enough pay otherwise.

Women aren' t humans.

tfw user here knows more about socialism than Karl Marx

>here is my biased opinion based solely around a single agenda
>in an area of knowledge that is based around ideas meaning any reasonable outcome comes from conflating multiple viewpoints into a collective spectrum of similar ideas
No need to read any of that user. The fact that you think a broad subject is limited to a single idea is telling enough to realize that debating with you is futile.

>dude stalin is an authority on communism lmao

Like national socialism
Yes, talking to socialists is a good way to understand what they mean when they say socialism, and Marxists are a prominent kind of socialist

game """""workers""""" are the same insufferable faggots who continuously shove leftist propaganda down our collective throats and I honestly just want them to suffer

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The industry is mostly unregulated rn so nobody is stopping AA devs to pump out games. Stop with the road to serfdom bullshit.

Right now I am making around $60/hr and just took a class so I can take a job that is paying more around $100/hr. The more I make an hour, the more I want to work. People who don't want to work overtime are people who don't make much per hour, or get paid salary. I was one of you once upon a time. I know when I was making 12/hr I didn't even want to work a 40 hour work week if I could help it. Why work most of the day for chump change?

>The government will save us
ALL THE COMMIES IN DISGUISE GET OUTTA MY BOARD

Does this means that if i shot all the dictionary publishers, and printed my own dictionary, i could have full control over reality by defining the words we use to describe it any way i like?
This is, in fact, something an idealist would say. Idealism is quite dangerous user, i hope you recover from it one day, because it must be eradicated one way or another.

Those are actually things written by significant historical figures who were not only great leaders but took the time to personally ensure their followers understood the theory and reasoning behind their actions, and that they could justify and explain it not with an infographic but a well developed ideology grown out of fundamental philosophical groundings of 'how do we know what real is' on up to day to day interactions between people. A thing you will not find in the west at all. Which is of course necessary because any idealist system falls apart as soon as you begin examining it, unless you go full idealism - and most people, though afflicted by degrees of idealism, will not reject the existence of the material world.

>Even when Nintendo did they STILL found competition from sega.
Modern society has anti-trust laws and is not pure capitalism/ancap. America has had pro-competition laws that exist to create competition and prevent monopolies since the 1890s, Japan has had pro-competition laws since 1947 when they were introduced by the Allies.

>Yes, talking to socialists is a good way to understand what (every other person on earth) means when (every other person on earth) says socialism

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Get a job

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>i dont need to know what socialism is, i can simply believe its what i want to think it is
more idealism

>Being a bootlicker and arguing against unions and employees wanting to be treated better because MUH SJW.

I thought this board couldn't get any stupider. Boy was I fucking wrong.

Distributism is anti-commie, and anti-ancappie. Communism and socialism are diametrically opposed to distributism, because socialism/communism has no private property and consolidates power, while private property is a vital element of distributism and the whole point is to stop any one group getting too much power.

You might as well be calling anything that isn't literally Somalia "communism" if you think distributism is at all like communism. Every Western country has taxation, and in fact every Western country is already pretty close to distributism (anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws are distributism).

That sounds like complete and utter nonsense, made up entirely by your own assumptions of others. All I ever hear from workers who'd make below your rate of pay is about how they struggle to acquire the overtime they need for an average salary in the first place.

It doesn't matter what a non socialist thinks socialism means or how it works, they arent trying to implement it.

This, but also the industry is scum in itself.
You'll get the current CEOs shoving microtransactions into everything and being your general idiot, if the left gets what they want, then you'll get the Programmer Cult; a hiveminded circlejerk where their collective hatred for deadlines will allow them to take Duke Nukem Forever levels of time before they feel like their trash is "just perfect enough, hold on, found another bug, hold on I don't like this model texture, are we good... no w8 m8, forgot this thing here." This is why Kickstarter is such fraud; they're not obligated to finish anything or punished for fucking around.

What's the maximum harm scenario here?

The outcome that causes the most possible pain BOTH for shitter multinational corporations like EA or Activision but also completely fucks over every genderkin Che T-shirt wearing hamplanet that's furiously tweeting about the need for unions to free them from their slavery

I don't view "good guys" here, every side is people I hate

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>It doesn't matter what a non politician thinks politics means, they arent trying to implement it.

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So what you guys are saying is that this union consists of journalists instead of actual game workers like programmers, game designers, graphic artists, music composers, storywriters, etc.

communism is about abolishing the state entirely.
the problem with distributionism is that as long as private property exists the people who have it will control government in their favor. You cant use government to keep things fair when the people who want things to become unfair are the ones in control of government.

Any protections built into a government to keep it from screwing everyone over will eventually get broken down and circumvented in time as long as wealth can accumulate.

>It doesn't matter what a non socialist thinks socialism means or how it works, they arent trying to implement it.
That's not how that works, user.

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Like these big corporations need even more insentive to outsource jobs to the second world.

>communism is about abolishing the state entirely
Pretty funny how people always attempt that by making an omnipotent state

It's a simple trick. Feed a poor man the right propaganda to make him hate his worker brother just for being dark or gay, and he will betray his class. He'll be curbstomped by billionaires with a smile on his face all the while blaming his fellow workers for the troubles the rich cause him.

>calling someone who hates unions a bootlicker
My friend joined a union. He is a CWI with RT. Outside of a union, he would have no problem finding a job from $35 to $45 an hour, or even more if he went to a better part of the country. He joined a union that offered him about $45/hr. He got sent on a job, and when he got his check, he got paid $25/hr. He was told since he wasn't the head guy on the job he was only getting paid assistant pay. At a later point in time, he took company training taking him hours without getting paid, while EVERY non-union company in this industry that I've ever heard of always pays you for training. To top it off, he went months without work and didn't get paid while at his previous non-union job he got 20 hours a week as a minimum when he was not working. So from what I've seen from unions, you have to be the dumbest bootlicker out there to join a group whose sole existence is to protect the worker and yet they are the worst company around to do so.

Trips of Peace

You skipped the part where the corporations and billionaires inflicted all the darkies and homos on him in the first place

Not shutting down Yea Forums in 2016 was a mistake and this post is hard proof.

Thats exactly how it works, if i say im going to do a thing, the only thing that matters is what im planning on doing. If you decide to adopt an entirely different meaning to what i just said thats not going to stop me from going along and trying to do what i was going to do before we had the conversation at all. Your understanding of what a word i use means has nothing at all to do with what im meaning when i say something.

Socialism, being based on a philisophical school of thought (historical materialism) uses the same definitions it started with. When a socialist says socialism they mean what they have always meant. This is important as it means i can read something written a hundred years ago and understand it exactly, and is how all philosophical schools work.

>most devs are temp contracts on a fixed salary, typically lasting several months/years
>salary means they are subject to different overtime regulations
>devs are expected to work up to ~100hr weeks during crunch because management is too incompetent/ingrained to set a proper development schedule

Here's where the problem people don't seem to understand comes in, under current FLSA law, if someone is making over $455/wk ($23,660/yr) on a salary any OT is up to the company's discretion. Most devs are paid higher than this, but everyone forgets that these people are on a temp contract, so they're typically only making half of their projected annual income but still subject to OT regs. Most game studios are also in commiefornia or other yuppie liberal shitholes, where cost of living is insane, so their bigger checks are relatively small compared to lower-income jobs elsewhere. Most of these people can't afford to just quit and find a different job, their credentials aren't worth nearly as much in the rest of the tech industry, so they get locked in this cycle of moving from one shit studio to the next, and the idea of moving away to somewhere cheaper but with a "shittier" job doesn't convince many people.

You think they're an affliction?

You need a classless state before you can have stateless and classless society.

Relations of production can last centuries. Feudalism lasted over a thousand years, capitalism is going on over two hundred years now. You cant jump straight into communism it would just be anarchy and kick off another round of feudalism.

Cry me a river, pinko.

They're a pest.

>is that as long as private property exists the people who have it will control government in their favor
Modern Western society works pretty damn good with the government-corporate balance we have now, and distributism seeks to only slightly tweak parts of the balance towards government or small business (since society is almost distributist already).
Meanwhile, there are no successful examples of an entire country becoming communist, because every time you try a revolution, you just end up installing a new warlord who promises communism but actually gives you dictatorship.
>You cant use government to keep things fair when the people who want things to become unfair are the ones in control of government.
Distributism splits the balance of power by reducing businesses' power and size so they can no longer as strongly influence government. Therefore removing the problem.

Because what alternative do you provide? Giving all power to the government so they can completely misuse it as we've seen every all-powerful government state do? Even with separation of powers, politics makes governments too incompetent and inefficient, whereas the constant push of money and competition makes businesses more efficient (though more soulless the bigger the business gets).

This is why the ideal government system, Distributism, breaks up the power so no single group has too much power, but so each group can do what they do best. Separation of government into executive, judiciary and legislature, and separation of business into many small/medium-size businesses, none of which are large or powerful enough on their own to directly influence government, but all of which are able to work away at individual industries that would be liable to corruption in government hands.

I've gotta go now, have fun bros.

Sounds like humans are tribalistic to a fault. Perhaps the reason communism inevitably defaults to a failed dictatorship with bureaucratic bloat is because too many of the true believers who actually get the opportunity to actually try and implement communism eventually realize that 'the people' never wanted it at all and even if they did, don't fucking deserve all his effort to try and establish it anyhow.

Not an argument.

Something tells me you'd have never supported your "brother" unless he conformed to your particular ideals in the first place. Tribalism is a primitive concept and should be eradicated from society, you support the propaganda of the upper-class by perpetuating the belief of "betrayal" by claiming wrongthink.

>desire and necessity are the same thing
First lets cover desire. Ignoring your needs, lets start at $12/hr. Rate from 1 to 10 how likely you would want to work an extra 20 hours, making a 60 hour work week, if you went from $480 a week to $840 a week. Now for $60/hr, what rating would you give going from $2400 to $4200 a week?

Now if you NEED to make that $840 a week, then you will work it. But if you only need to make $480 a week, your desire to make a few hundred dollars extra isn't going to be as high as making a couple thousand dollars extra.

>MY version of socialism is the REAL socialism though!
>MY version of democracy is the REAL democracy though

Like clockwork

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>Modern Western society works pretty damn good
its collapsing as we speak, conditions are getting worse yearly

>communist
communism is the relation of production after socialism, there have only ever been a few socialist states in the world, and they were very successful when you look at them in context

>power to government
you have just advocated giving people to government, government already has all the power, as long as humans are organizing themselves into states then government will have all the power. Communists are the only ones trying to fix this, by working out a way to finally end up in a stable stateless society.

>breaks up the power so no single group has too much power,
power accumulated. You can not have different groups with out having one group come out on top eventually

actually it's probably going to investors and executives, without whom the business would not exist.

people do not spontaneously coordinate their actions towards a complicated endgoal. executives and owners make that happen.

if it's so easy, why don't you do it? unless it's not easy, and super risky.

people who take bigger risks (founders) should get bigger rewards. otherwise who the fuck would do that to themselves?

I hope the industry crashes because every western game that comes out is pure uninspired bullshit. I don't want to support these people anymore.

>its collapsing as we speak
The US is getting stronger.

>only ever been a few socialist states in the world
Wrong...

>they were very successful
Not a single one has ever been successful. They have all been miserable failures.

>Communists are the only ones trying to fix this
The only thing communists do is focus their power into a smaller group of people. One person with all the power isn't better than 500 people sharing the same amount of power.

>You can not have different groups with out having one group come out on top eventually
How eventually? Hundreds of years is already a long time in my opinion but maybe you mean thousands of years?

>fire you without a care and hire one of the other million people who will gladly lick the corporate boot.
Depends which field you're in, but since this thread started with programmers then that's not so much the case. There may be a million pajeets willing to work for 65k, but you're most likely going to hire a retard that knows how to write code yet doesn't understand the concept of making software. Which makes it very time consuming to find a new hire and time is of the essence to fill the role to get back up to full capacity. That's also why during layoffs you'll see less programmers be laid off in comparison to artists and designers.

Artists I will 100% agree. Easy to fire, hire and train a new guy as long as their portfolio can fit within your game's style. Exactly the same for audio.

Design is much like an artist, but there may be training of the tools. So some real interviewing may be required to see if they can fit in.

Leadership roles are tough, because you actually have do multiple interviews to see if they're capable.

>the US is getting stronger
The US lost its status as alpha dog of the West, it can't simply order around other Western countries to do its bidding. Most of its recent growth is artificial, it's in for a rude awakening.

Cuba seems to be doing okay

>they were all miserable failures
Bruh, Americans couldn't even take on a tiny communist nation off their coast, which despite being sanctioned to hell and back by America and its cronies still managed to get a better healthcare and education system than the most powerful country in the world

this, own your labour

but the real problem is funding
is kickstarter even viable for funding projects anymore or has everyone been burnt too many times by shitty unfinished game projects?

I never claimed they were, you simply didn't address the concepts beforehand. When did I ever say these people worked overtime for necessity? The line between the two is blurred when the definitions behind desire and necessity come into play. Would you consider necessity to be working at the bare minimum to break even with bills and taxes, or a wage that let's you live at a desired level of comfort?

Of course, a large majority of these workers can already break even with their payments at an average hourly rate, they're working overtime for the exact same reasons you are, simply at a lower rate of pay. You can't attribute desire for overtime solely to level of pay, some people may want to work more because they make less, and become lazier over time as their career grows and raises their minimum rate of pay. Or what if the worker dreads entering the workplace out of anxiety or fear, despite the pay?

and it sucked

go move there then lmao

lmao

Actual bullshit. I am RFT at a AAA studio and I am paid hourly. Don't talk shit unless you have actually worked in games. Everyone knows even contractors are paid hourly too and are entitled to over and double time.

>The US lost its status as alpha dog of the West, it can't simply order around other Western countries to do its bidding
This was never an actual thing, and this is not really a sign of a strong economic society.

>better healthcare
Realistically the US has the best healthcare. You know all those innovations that those other countries use to achieve higher standards? Where the fuck do you think they come from. They don't have better healthcare, they sponge off better healthcare to make theirs look better. If we joined them in socialism then they would suffer. That isn't the sign of a better economic system.

he wont because he'd get murdered on the spot for being american

>Work in game industry
>Is enslaved
>Make less than in any other industry
>Yet still dont quit because "muh dream"

If vidya industry workers were not so infantile the laws of supply and demand would force companies to treat their employees better

start your own studio and pay your workers a wage you think is fair =)

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>The US is getting stronger.
Its infrastructure is collapsing, real unemployment is 23%, it produces almost nothing, and the dollar as an international reserve currency is weakening while cost of living continues to rise, life expectancy is dropping, and everyone is in more debt than ever.
>name
the ussr was very successful, as has been north korea. Cuba was as well but it let capitalism in and now its doing sex reassignment surjery.
>smaller group
sheer propoganda
>How eventually?
because a society and its material conditions are intertwined. The shape of society is based on its conditions. Stoicism was developed in a time of decline, hedonism is a time of excess. What humans find morally correct and virtuous is based on what benefits society at the time, which is based on how those humans interact with the physical reality they exist in. If one group owns that reality they have control of the rest, and will accumulate power and influence,

The relations of production dictate who and how things are owned. In feudalism things were owned through personal martial power, a lord owned something because he had an army to defend it, he was tasked with looking after it by the king, who had the power to take it back from a lord if needed. In capitalism, people own things by virtue of the states capacity for violence. A law is written that says people own things, and now if someone objects to this they can be arrested, defense of property in capitalism is contingent on the owner having state mandate the same way defense of property in feudalism was contingent on the owner having martial power.
Any time you have separate groups owning things, and ownership is able to be transferred, eventually it will accumulate, its the old 20/80 rule.
In feudalism the state was made up of owners, and it is the same in capitalism. The US founding fathers realized this, which is why only land owners could vote.

>The US is getting stronger.
I'm sorry, did I wake up in an alternate timeline or something? That's a pretty delusional outlook at the bigger picture.

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This. Sitting in an air conditioned office for 10 hours tip tapping on yiur keyboard isnt labor

>the ussr was very successful, as has been north korea. Cuba was as well but it let capitalism in and now its doing sex reassignment surjery.

please move there then and give us some peace and quiet from your supreme stupidity

yeah? you try it then

>I never claimed they were, you simply didn't address the concepts beforehand
I used the word want. Necessities aren't things you want. Desire correlates to want. You tried to defend your argument implying they needed something by using the word need. Need has a stronger tie to necessities than desires. If you don't want context clues to be used as part of a conversation, then make sure to be as clear in your point as you can be.

I wish I could read and respond to your second paragraph but its time for me to go take that test I was talking about.

Sitting in a air conditioned factory for 10 hours pulling a level isn't labor

Gaymers RISE UP.

I hope to God they unionize so it backfires in their idiot trans faces.
It would ruin the games industry.

We'd get like 3 games a year tops and they'd be filled with predatory monetization.
Also these 80% of these goons would be fired and unable to find a job elsewhere because of the new union red tape and bureaucracy.

Except if the workers own the industry, then that means that you almost exclusively attract “artist” types who make for very inefficient workers

This is your mind on capitalism

Right Wing Socialism and Fascism are literally the fixes to most of society's ills.

>Facist corporatism
National Socialism what Hitler fought for was that a corporation can operate in his country so as long as his countrymen benefited from it. If not then he can safely tell them to fuck off. Communism aka Socialism is always an economic system that leads to codependance and failure.

>We'd get like 3 games a year tops
pretty sure you'd get the opposite, where there would be more AA games with more reasonable budgets
>and they'd be filled with predatory monetization.
wew you think it's the workers who push for this shit? wew

Go back to chapo cuck shed

[cont]
but this was changed at a later time, farcically, as now our elections mean nothing as congress can simply be bought off. It is done through campaign donations, the party due system for seats on committees, and other lobbyists. People would say 'make these things illegal!', do they not see how ridiculous this is?

Humans act in their own self interest, this is a fundamental assumption. Now, as it happens to be, humans have evolved to work in collectives, and in fact the groups prosperity translates into the individuals own safety and well being, and so humans have traditionally developed virtues of selflessness and seen selfishness as evil. This is simply due to the self destructive nature of it. Radical egoism leads to collectivism where humans are concerned, because ones self interests are ultimately best served in the groups.

But what this means is asking the government to regulate itself is ludicrious because the government individuals self interest will be to identify as the group meant group and simply exploit everyone else.
Stalin even warned about this in socialism. Do not trust socialist bureaucrats he told people. He, and others, knew that as socialism was simply the next step it was still not perfect. The difference is because under socialism nobody owns more wealth, the amount of influence that influential people can have is limited. One can not bribe with as many things, and the entire mechanisms described above relating to how the US government is compromised would not function.

>you are clueless because I told you so
>therefore you may not invest in a company

Wow economics geniuses over here.

Do you think because game devs have a union is means they directly ontrol corporate business practices and monetization of games?

Wew lmao wew

[cont]
>thousands of years
historical materialists are in it for the long haul, until the subatomic particles start to decay, or further.

Human society was relatively stable for thousands of years, communalism, or primitive communism, was how we lived and evolved. When technology started changing the material conditions and possibilities with the agricultural revolution which allowed the slave society to become a thing we entered a long (but relatively short in the grand view of history) transition through relations of production. These are; slave system, feudalism, capitalism socialism. We know these because we have seen them. After socialism is theorized communism, and communism, which is primitive communalism but with technology and industrial production preserved (think anarcho-primitivism but you get to keep your technology) is the next step. We know it is the final step, but whos to say for sure how socialism will develop over time. There could be more intermediate steps.

So you see, it is not a simple system to implement or not, it is a historical outlook and analysis of the entirety of human civilization, past and future.

So wait, then your problem isn't with unions and workers, it's with greedy suits.

the only place left to move is north korea but i do not know korean :^)
besides i like the US' national characteristics. I want to keep burgerstan culturally similar to how it is, just a red coat of paint.

>>Socialism: The workers owns the vidya industry.
LMAO!!!! Someone did not take a basic economics class.
>Socialism: all power focused on one leader to make decisions for them.
Basically its a Ponzi scheme of stealing from everyone else and getting all the power to one leader only with the illusion of people projecting their power to the government.

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Which unions wont solve the problem of.
The suits would probably tighten their grip to try to control the union

>No reality is not real Economics is false
>Only my fictional novel of Karl Marx said is true.

? why? afaik she's trying to bring in more voucher schools. the american school system has been really bad for decades, and she's only been there for 3 years...

>fuck unions, go fully commie instead
Based

...

>Comrade Stalin
>Marxists.org
Would you like it if I had a website called Facists.org or Racists.com to highlight race and IQ for you.
>comrade lenin addressing the liberal idea of equality
Equality aka Egalitarian belief system always lead to failure as it relies on humans to not be corrupted by power under centralization of power. Unfortunately like the real world shows over and over again power does corrupt and equality is always meant that some people are more equal than others.

Nice fake argument, nobody spends shit on "maintenance" or "materials" or "distribution" in games. We're kind of past this industrial revolution shit at this point, brainlet, the vast majority is spent on producing information and spreading information both of which you need.

Fuck off. Fuck western developers who shove leftist cancer into every fucking game. I'm glad they're overworked. They can go and fuck themselves.

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you could reconstruct the entire contense of capital if you again looked with historical materialism at the capitalist system, if definitions were wiped out people would have to just make up entirely new things.

This is the strength of the (real) left, our fundamental truth is not any system, but a method of analysis, and so whereas capitalists say capitalism is good in and of itself, a historical materialist says capitalism is good when the conditions are right for capitalism, and socialism is good when the conditions are right for socialism. The capitalism can be correct some of the time, but is not correct all of the time, and stubbornly clings to the idea of capitalism as having its own self-affirming virtue.

All idealists are like this, an idealist who agrees with you is still a danger, because when the conditions change he will go on insisting the thing is correct in and of itself and become your enemy.

>Would you like it if I had a website called Facists.org
i already read /pol/ regularly :^)

So i see you did not read anything

Not what im saying.
I'm more for NatSoc type shit.
But a union in the modern day landscape of the video hame industry would be a disaster and make things worse for the consumer which in turn makes it worse for the industry

Marxism is a scam.
The labor theory of value has been btfo'd by marginalism. The concept of surplus labor has been btfo'd by marginal productivity.

Almost no modern economist is a marxist for this very reason.

Tankies fuck off.

>I want to keep burgerstan culturally similar to how it is, just a red coat of paint.
go read a history book

>So i see you did not read anything
I did not need to as you ignored mine.

programmers are workers because they work their hardest at coming up with excuses for why they’re not going to work on your ticket

This. Game Programmers are the janitors of the industry

>north korea and the ussr were very successful
holy fuck

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what evidence do you have that humans had primitive communism? if anything the hierarchies were even more stringent, and life was more brutal. most men didn't mate, and tribal warfare lead by pretty clear distinctions of "alpha" and "non-alpha" dominated all of life. "primitive communism" implies some kind of equity that nature red in tooth and claw simply does not allow for. sounds like echoes of "noble savage" nonsense to me. your other points aren't too bad though.

>So you see, it is not a simple system to implement or not, it is a historical outlook and analysis of the entirety of human civilization, past and future.

the arrogance here though is astounding. it is hard if not impossible to model social reality. only in the 20th century have we developed statistical tools that allow us to view reality somewhat objectively at scale. viewing historical reality objectively, at scale, is impossible. the best "theories" are more often than not romantic or ideologically informed crapshoots. historical misinterpretations are everywhere, and data is rather scant. to claim that one's historical outlook and analysis is based on anything more than these types of primitive or romantic speculations, in my opinion, requires more than jargon and hubris.

this conceit of an objectively analyzed or understood historical outlook has lead to incredibly unstable systems.

for instance, you mentioned that the soviet union was "very successful". in what way? you realize the soviet union lasted less than a single human lifetime? this is a puny runt of a system as far as governments go. it failed to last because it ignored natural order, and tried to impose systems which were divorced from human nature. all the best governments have been a mixture of intelligent design (ID) of intellectuals, and a respect for history (evolution). the early American government based itself on the british system, but also consciously tweaked itself (ID). the ussr was pure ID. it failed.

>Would you like it if I had a website called Facists.org or Racists.com to highlight race and IQ for you.
False equivalence. I would trust them to lay out their ideology if like marxists.org they don't hold anything back. marxists.org does not hide its power level.

I'm busy working on a severe engine crash to look at your shitty clipping issue. Get off my back John

ahahaha what?
programmers are the core

a programmer can literally learn any other role in the company and fill it easily, the reverse is rarely possible

Artists and designers and leads are the core.
Fag programmers are the fodder and easily replaced

I see you like to use psycho babble copypasta.

>t. never wagecucked in his life
lol my company can't fire any of the union guys. They get hired, promoted, and fired by the union. I really hope they go on strike this summer when they renegotiate the union contract with the company so I can get a couple days off.

pretty sure he was trolling about the ussr

but we should send him to venezuela to show what socialism did to the formerly wealthiest nation in SA

>False equivalence.
It's the same.

>Artists and designers and leads are the core.
then they can try programming the game if they're so smart :)

everything an artist, designer or lead does, a programmer can do better

Programmers are autistic nerds who cant draw a circle

I hope they do not renegotiate. They just hire immigrants with H1B visas because it should not be about a bunch of white racist bigots like you getting what you want. It's about the immigrants, diversity is our strength.

artists, programmers and designers are core. "leads" are not a seperate category, there's leads for each field. designers are above programmers and programmers are above artists, but only slightly

>When we talk about game workers, we're referring to anyone involved with the production of a game. Programmers, artists, designers, musicians? Yep.

zines.gwumtl.com/unionfaqs-whats-a-game-worker/

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this user does not understand american education
this user does
No child left behind was a federal mandate but "how" was left up to states. Standards from 1st-12th grade are set by commities in state legislatures. Standardizeds test vary from state to step for the same reason (ie Michigan has MEAP, Indiana has/had(?) ISTEP. Not the same as ACT/SAT tests). Teacher's unions usually fight for pay, benefits, class sizes etc.

187 replies

USSR was a huge success, north korea has survived in relative isolation despite the US waging constant economic war on it, it learned from the USSRs collapse and will not fall for the same subversion.

Unless china is telling the truth about still being communist and just doing more capitalist development for a while north korea will likely save humanity.

>what evidence do you have that humans had primitive communism?
from stalin:
>The basis of the relations of production under the primitive communal system is that the means of production are socially owned. This in the main corresponds to the character of the productive forces of that period. Stone tools, and, later, the bow and arrow, precluded the possibility of men individually combating the forces of nature and beasts of prey. In order to gather the fruits of the forest, to catch fish, to build some sort of habitation, men were obliged to work in common if they did not want to die of starvation, or fall victim to beasts of prey or to neighboring societies. Labor in common led to the common ownership of the means of production, as well as of the fruits of production. Here the conception of private ownership of the means of production did not yet exist, except for the personal ownership of certain implements of production which were at the same time means of defense against beasts of prey. Here there was no exploitation, no classes.

we can see this even in the native (north) american societies before the europeans showed up, they had not even progressed to the slave system, but lived in primitive communism.

As engels explains the prerequisite for moving beyond primitive communism is the development and establishment of agriculture sufficient to feed said slaves.

The south americans on the other hand did have a slave system, and they had agriculture, but did not yet develop into feudalism because they did not require serfs yet, their technology was sufficiently operated by slaves.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or just underage (or underage american).
Unions were created back in the 19th century when factories required HUNDREDS of low skilled workers that were EASILY REPLAZABLE, it was a way of protecting themselves taking into account the sparse work laws existing back them, when liberalism (the real one, not whatever the fucking hell you call now liberalism) was starting to crack here and there and most countries (including USA) started to establish sensible legislation to protect the average low and the basis of the welfare system (yes, USA used to have a welfare system, and it wasn't a communist stalinist maoist colony, weird, right?).

Nah, just joking, i know you are just being sarcastic, because what you expose in your post is the basic reason why union were born to begin with, i mean, nobody can be that fucking spot on ignorant, right?

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>USSR was a huge success
no

Americans disgust me.

Jesus christ
If it was a programmers union id get it
But some guy who does the music is included?
Its too broad

Union workers get paid too much. It's time for intersectionality to take over. No more white workers getting all these raises and holding more money than the immigrants that pass college and having to work for pennies. It's time for unions to step aside for more immigration and lower wages.

>north korea will likely save humanity.
Fucking excuse me?

Threads like this make me realize i am way smarter than most retards here. Both anti and pro union comments in this thread are stupid.

Voucher schools are whats wrong with private education in the US. They hire anyone regardless of ability to teach a subject. A former pastor could be your biology teacher, a retired politician your English teacher. The standards can be set by people like Betsy Devos, who have 0 experience in education They are designed to be able to decide who gets "educated" and then indoctrinate them.

My fellow comrade I to like Stalin. But Stalin was white. I am afraid you would need to refer to our god Hugo Chavez and how wonderful Venezuela was with real Communism until the uprising began.

none of those positions qualfiy as "worker". If anything they're artisans. Unions make sense for workers. They don't make sense here
Fucking communists

I don't even understand how it's possible to argue with someone who genuinely thinks north korea is doing well.
If that's what doing well looks like, I'm cool with staying in my "shitty" country.

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>they were very successful when you look at them in context
They literally all starved to death because they murdered all their farmers.

Game music can be specialized and need special skills. Cafeteria staff...not really.

>The basis of the relations of production under the primitive communal system is that the means of production are socially owned

This is applying modern parlance to a system we barely understand. Native Americans wrote down no histories, and there is no evidence of primitive communism. As I suspected, this is pure speculation. For all we know tribal elders and leaders could have been deflowering virgins left and right while keeping weak men in line with intimidation. You have no evidence of communism among primitive tribes, just speculation. And further, even if they did share a lot more than a system with property rights and capitalism, this does not mean that the term "communism" is appropriate to describe it. The lack of objective jargon untied to modern ideology is suspicious. It would be like calling fertile crescent traders "entrepreneurs". Perhaps. But this is a shortsighted way to describe the system, but this is semantics. The real issue is the lack of objective data and the huge leaps in reasoning used to justify the morality of a bad system by tying it to the natural world in some way (native americans were "primitive communists").

TL;DR, citation needed

In just a few decades it went from a feudal peasant society to putting a probe on venus, more than doubled life expectancy, and generally resulted in the best minimum standards of living ever seen on the planet.

>he believes western lies about the dprk
they dont even try to hide it, they claimed a few weeks ago comrade un had some official executed, and then a week after that said official was walking around perfectly fine, then a week later they claimed he had someone else executed in a bond villian style phirranah tank.
You should not believe anything at all you hear about north korea from western sources. they dont even try to hide their lies, because people like you just believe what ever they are told.

>Basically its a Ponzi scheme of stealing from everyone else and getting all the power to one leader only with the illusion of people projecting their power to the government.
user, I don't get it, are you saying that the People's Worker Party of Working People Workers Party doesn't actually give a fuck about the working class?

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other countries industrialized without communism, the USSR ultimately fell far behind and then collapsed

No it is you who supports capitalism as our Greatest strength when Communism lifted everyone out of poverty. China is a beacon of light among North Korea. It is that you third world savages have yet to see government fixes all the problems and unlimited immigration is a strength. Not a weakness.

umm, CEOs are workers too, sweetie :)

Why is there one family leading the country if they are communists? Shouldn't no one be leading the country? Smells fishy to me. If I was a communist I wouldn't stand for ANYONE being in power.

China is hyper capitalist

Wait are they really trying to make a game dev union that doesn't include programers?

you must understand north korea has been cut off from global trade, and must be entirely self sufficient. While china is technically their ally, even china in its current ambitions in making headway into the west must not be as friendly with them as it has in the past.

Even in feudal times most nations had some trade options open to them, but north korea is effectively isolated, as the US has convinced the world to enact siege warfare on them. All those stories about how they were going to collapse any day now in the 90s during their famine? This is because the US was intentionally trying to starve them to death. But it didnt work. Despite all predictions by liberal economists. This is because the west does not actually understand production, its all fanciful stories and dreams to them. North korea survived, and now has nukes.

Its not speculation because all primitive communism means is no private ownership of means of production and no state. They were too small to form states, begin only tribal in nature, and they did not have private ownership of means of production as clearly demonstrated by historical encounters where they saw land ownership as some nonsensical idea.

Sure. But musicians arent laborers.
These kids read das capital in dum dum school and think labor=laborer.

Musicians and artists are artisans. Programmers are laborers.

game programmers are definitely artisans

When the day comes where war breaks out I'm gunning for you first retard.

Is a guy merely operating a truck a worker?

Is the illegal immigrant babysitting one of Musk's dreadnaught robots a worker?

Is a graphics technician a worker?

Have you ever worked a day in your life as to be able to make these distinctions?

I would argue less so than anyone else in the industry.

But there isnt a painters union or a guitarists union for a reason.

>You should not believe anything at all you hear about north korea from western sources. they dont even try to hide their lies, because people like you just believe what ever they are told.
Absolutely Right fellow comrade.

>clearly demonstrated by historical encounters where they saw land ownership as some nonsensical idea.
or perhaps they didn't have a legal system to make their understanding of property and turf concrete for historical analysis, but those ideas maybe still existed in a primitive form ("grok hunted on my land, so i killed him and took his wife with my band of strong underlings"). the issue is we have no evidence either way.

Game programmer here. Those cliquish Marxists at Game Workers Unite can stay the fuck away from my workplace.

Seriously, that group in particular is clearly formed by the Leftist clique that bullies in indie gaming and games journalism, and they want to expand their power into larger game studios so that they can bully there too and dictate who's ideologically pure enough to work in the industry. I'd obviously be on their hit list for posting here and being conservative (*gasp*), but the scorn of GWU even extends to the "centrists" since everyone to the Right of Bernie is Hitler.

I don't think that's what OP's implying.
And programmers actually already have unions in most western countries, so I'm not sure it would even make sense.

>lefist commies use the proletariat as a shield to increase their own power and influence

THIS IS UNHEARD OF

Your argument would be wrong, you could say other fields of programming are just labour like slapping together webpage templates but game programming is definitely "artisanal", even more so than the actual artwork in many cases

Dude.

There ARE unions for musicians and artists.

>other countries industrialized without communism
Much more slowly
It did not fall behind, it was doing better than ever in the 80s, It collapsed due to bad leadership.

They are elected, and the government is structured such a way that he is effectively only the head of 'one branch', using US equivalent terms. The highest authority in the dprk is the supreme council which is a large body including actual workers who come to represent their group of workers.

The reason he gets elected is he is effectively groomed for the job. As you might have noticed socialist leaders are not people who have won personality contests, but they do a lot of thinking and writing. You can see the works written by the various dprk leaders here:
korean-books.com.kp/en/search/?page=work-leader1

The people are aware of the value of this for the time being.

Teacher here: teachers unions are only useful for a single thing: Litigation protection, which should be baked into jobs like teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc to provide a much harder barrier of entry to pursuing legal actual against an individual instead of the company they are representing. Other than that, explain to me why they should exist? Tell me why any parent anywhere should be happy about a system which makes it difficult to fire an established teacher. Teachers don't get fired for being mediocre-- it's a profession with lots of openings and large turnover. They get fired for being worthless if they don't work in a place that makes it impossible to get rid of them after 3-5 years. DC is a great example of a fucked school system

>Game programmer here. Those cliquish Marxists at Game Workers Unite can stay the fuck away from my workplace.
Do you not want to fight the evil capitalists and seize their money? Are you tired of being paid a low wage when you can get more of it.
>Seriously, that group in particular is clearly formed by the Leftist clique that bullies in indie gaming and games journalism,
Those are Jewish leftists. Not Democratic Socialists.

>It did not fall behind, it was doing better than ever in the 80s
oh so you're just a delusional commie then
boris yeltsin visited a convenience store in america and thought it was a setup
everyone in the USSR had a fucking terrible quality of life

Just as unheard of as right wing plutocrats hiding behind the promise of freedom for all when lobbying for bills that allow them to continue swindling this same proletariat!

No. Read

the industry is already pretty onionized, nobody's gonna pay for another group of pressure like that.

>Do you not want to fight the evil capitalists and seize their money?
No because game developers are not workers paid to do their hours who hate their bosses, they care about what they're working on and want to do a good job of it, at least ideally

Marxism again!

>or perhaps they didn't have a legal system
this is the exact same thing

"they didnt have private property"
"well, maybe they just didnt have the thing that makes property!"

Ownership is social, you own things if society acknowledges you own it. A king does not have property, he has control. Property is imparted by a sovereign, private property is not real ownership in the way you might imagine, it is a writ to exercise your authority over territory within certain confines. This is why you cant do something illegal on your own land under capitalism, you still get arrested, you are still within the system.

This is in line with modern socialist thinking, which developed largely in response to the failure of old socialist ideas, which was the government owning the means of production. Both understandings of socialism is technically correct, just in different contexts. But when somebody is advocating for socialism in a modern context, yes, they typically mean worker co-ops and such things, not government ownership.

The idea is naturally that they're going to have to.

And I hope by "pretty organized" you mean pretty organized at favoring only the investors and studio owners.

>Tell me why any parent anywhere should be happy about a system which makes it difficult to fire an established teacher.
because every american goober getting mad because a liberal teacher didn't told his son the world was created in six days by a magic grandpa would become a criteria by which competent teachers could get removed

>Other than that, explain to me why they should exist? Tell me why any parent anywhere should be happy about a system which makes it difficult to fire an established teacher.
Black person here Hol Up *smacks lips* so you be sayin
>They get fired for being worthless if they don't work in a place that makes it impossible to get rid of them after 3-5 years. DC is a great example of a fucked school system
We need more money for dem programs. Need mah edumacation to learn things.

Yes. Because Marx orchestrated the first worker revolt at fucking age 13.

are you stupid? any retard can program, but not anyone can be an artist or a designer

Mhh

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Reminder that if builders built buildings in the same way that programmers program programs, you'd see skyscrapers collapsing when butteflies land on them.

any retard can be a designer, art requires talent and programming requires brains

That is the single most ignorant thing I have read on Yea Forums so far this year.

Bravo.

I'm a programmer, its piss easy. I don't understand how people have so much trouble learning shit like c and c#

>we can see this even in the native (north) american societies before the europeans showed up, they had not even progressed to the slave system, but lived in primitive communism.

>he doesn't know about the Mississippi Culture (or their pre-contact collapse)
>he doesn't know about the Anasazi

They progressed and collapsed and progressed again. Europeans got lucky to show up in the equivalent of a Mad Max raider collapse so they barely even noticed the ruins being reclaimed by the forest. My point is, history is not a progression, evolution doesn't have some kind of fucking 'logical endpoint'. It goes with whatever works 'good enough' at the time. If conditions change and make something else more beneficial to an organism's personal gene or meme-line then population shift 'can' occur.

The most likely progression from this point is actually a return to localized 'tribalism' centered around compatible cultural values instead of economic necessity. The reasoning for this? Continued techological development towards on-site energy production and easy goods fabrication (micro-generators, fabricators, and miniaturized computation.) Communists like to obsess over the means of production, but they ignore so easily what has driven socio-economic realities. The advances in the means of distribution, pedestrians-horses-sailing-trains-steamships-cars-planes. The rapid advances in these mommentarily made ideas like communism attractive, until further advances made it possible for capitalists to completely sidestep localized pockets of unionization and commies by 'outsourcing'.

However, these same capitalists will find themselves equally 'in the bin' with the unionists if civilian level fabricators should advance to the point that local communities and family clans are able to meet even 60% of their daily production needs themselves. Soon only 'compatible cultures' will have a reason to mutually cooperate, social branding becomes the new currency.

So anyone can do it, but you don't understand why they can't?

Seems you don't think very highly of yourself.

that's because you're programming piss easy things

Socialism has always meant the workers owning the means of production. Even before marx, the earliest socialist movements were based around labor unions who had ideas like syndicalism where the workers owned the factory.

The only time it means anything else is in capitalist propoganda

German here. We like the green party. We need more immigrants due to the lack of of Germans having children. It may be bad with the mass killings and the community in disrepair. But we will survive now when we are only 40% of the population and Germany will cease to exist it will be a country of immigrants. That is a world I would like to live in including Sweden.

I thought about mentioning the evidence for ancient civilizations but where does this lead us? We have to go to cyclical civilizations, and the disaster cycle. If this is a thing we have till 2046 and nothing really matters anyway :^)

If the teacher isn't following the damn curriculum, they get removed. If they don't, they won't. Take it up with your state legislature. Teachers don't just walk in and decide what "History" even covers. If they fire a teacher for following the curriculum, the teacher just fucking sues them and makes substantially more money for wrongful termination.

...why don't the immigrants just join the unions?
I mean, they do where I live.

Communist parasite workers parties and movements since starts, build communists party as new caste.

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Manifesto.pdf

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>Unionization isnt a thing that works anymore
>nowadays a company can and will fire you without a care
>The point of unions is fair treatment of workers and job stability
Where you listening to /pol/ again, user? Unions prevent being fired over stupid reasons, like companies trying to create a high turnover rate, to get the most government aid.

So why aren't you in any of the programmers' unions?

>the workers owned the factory.
Which is always fucking stupid, because the average worker knows absolutely jack shit about running a business. That's why they don't run businesses.

communism is just a product of the eternal butthurt of dumbass factory workers having to perform boring jobs

programmers are just tools

does a construction worker "make" a building? no, the architect makes it, the workers are just a tools that he uses

programmers dont write things according to plan, they have to make the plan too

the average factory is ran not by its owners but by a worker who is hired to run it

Dude. Syndicalism has been the backbone of middleclass development in Western Europe for a hundred and fifty fucking years.

You think "businessmen" know jack shit about running "businesses"?

No Really, it was just an autistic NEET jew boy justify NEETdoom

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the architect is also a worker

Have you heard about agile development? Like, at alll?

>You think "businessmen" know jack shit about running "businesses"?
Yes.
If they don't, they're not a businessman, they're unemployed.

online libtards arent real communists

So, does this mean workers would have a share in the company? That's just a cooperative instead of a corporation.

>the system is failing people
>they try to change it
yes this is how revolutions occur.

I await the NEET uprising

The programmer is the architect, the game design document never explain shit in detail, it's a blessing to have anybody in the design team able to pseudo-code or just make logigrams of what they want.
It's even worse in agile when the marketing department can come behind you at any moment and tell you how to read the document you just made with a designer, in their own way that will be changed a few hours later by the next person of authority coming to check on your job again.

that is a misunderstanding of what i said. you're implying a lack of capitalism is communism, which is incorrect. both are defined in specific ways.

if the natives lacked property rights and legal system to uphold them, this does not imply they had communism. the lack of capitalism is not communism. they could have still had property rights that were held by force rather than court, or by familial relationships, or by any number of things.

by broadening the definition of communism to include fantasies of tribal life, for which we have no evidence, i think you are trying to justify your very modern ideology as somehow natural, which is not a solid argument.

And lo and behold, many of them are, while some of them are very successful on their own, and some are employed by the directorial boards at syndicates as financial advisors, key account managers, and business developers.

Funny how we can all work together without calling out the few as worthless or stupid.

What would they rise up about?

Their situation occurs because they have it too easy in the first place.

I don't think you actually know what running any sort of business involves.

>lack of capitalism is communism
no, social ownership and no state is communism.

>if the natives lacked property rights and legal system to uphold them, this does not imply they had communism.
indeed it does, because that is the definition of communism (or socialism, if they had a massive ancient civilization as user mentioned)

>held by force
this is feudalism

My definitions are the definitions that marxists have always used.

So called opression narratives. If they feel or think they are opressed then they are.

I think I do. I have run several of them.

>What would they rise up about?
When their parents die and they are suddenly homeless

Their situation occurs because of capitalism. They would have all had jobs in the ussr. It was illegal not to. Even the gopnik was employed and never worried about being homeless.

Sure, but what would really drive them to rise up?

Are they not getting what they deserve?
Are they starving, with no means of changing it?
Are they being overworked, or otherwise physically endagered by others?

idealism is for liberals

Because I enjoy owning my own labor and having the freedom to work wherever I please without having to pay fealty to a protection racket.

They worried about a lot of other things though. And I think quite many on Yea Forums would complain about it as well if it was against the law to be unemployed.

>no, social ownership and no state is communism.
then we are arguing semantics. in my view communism is more narrowly defined, and i dont feel like giving up the entire history of native americans your modern language. im suspicious that you want to insert the term where it doesn't belong. control over language is important and i won't yield it here.

If that were even remotely true, you would know that letting workers "run the business" makes as much sense as letting the inmates control the asylum.

>They worried about a lot of other things though.
This is true, but not their own survival.
Getting that sorted away is the first step to worrying about the other stuff.

>quite many on Yea Forums would complain about it as well if it was against the law to be unemployed.
under capitalism this would be a terrible and unfair thing because jobs are not guaranteed in capitalism, so punishing people for not having employment if you are not willing to provide them a job is itself worthy of an uprising.

In the USSR, the typical NEET could walk down to the police station and say they are unemployed, and be assigned some menial task to it. Having done this, he is now safe, and entitled to go back to his commieblock and live a life with guaranteed food and shelter and medical care.

Not a bad deal if you ask me. Those willing to work are taken care of, those unwilling to work go to gulag.

Sounds fair.
Unions aren't there to protect the strong.
Sometimes, a sufficient amount of weak people will clump together and start bullying the strong around though.

I'm not much for this, but when the hermit ronin won't help the rice farmers, they sometimes have to gang up and coerce him into helping out. There's be no rice for him either, if all of them starved at the hands of bandits and absentminded lords.

>then we are arguing semantics
as ever
>in my view communism is more narrowly defined
the problem is you are arguing against the definitions written down by marxists, which have always been the definition.
You are basically admitting to misunderstanding the words we say, replacing it with something you have imagined up.
How are we to progress here? You are basically freaking yourself out by stubbornly making up ways to stay opposed to a word you just feel compelled to be opposed to with out even understanding what it means.

Or maybe not having an entrypoint into society. People need a purpose.

>Corporatism is trying to consolidate industries into a single group, exactly what distributism exists to avert-- it aims to break all areas of power up into smaller groups, both in government and in business
It does so using a centralized authority i.e the government. In practice, there’s no fucking difference.

You also realize that fascism originated from national syndicalism, which is a form of workplace democracy where laborers elect their own leadership and act as shareholders in the companies they work for.

I swear, Yea Forums doesn’t know a goddamn thing about politics or economics.

>They would have all had jobs in the ussr.

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Someones got to make those watches
There would be no gun

>Social media managers think they're "game workers"
This is fucking hilarious, this union should also include janitorial staff of game dev studios as they have about as much of an impact on game development as the people who professionally shitpost on twitter.

>the problem is you are arguing against the definitions written down by marxists, which have always been the definition.
i see no evidence for this. marxists existed long after native americans and historians.
im admitting that you are trying to apply your terms and jargon across the world and history, in a way that allows you to normalize your language, and therefore your ideology. in a proper argument, terms are agreed upon and the content is discussed. however, not all people argue fairly. they seek to define terms in a certain way and then perform a bait and switch, such as:

native americans were "communist" -> communism is natural and even noble, because the native americans were -> we should have modern communism now

the bait comes from applying the term communism to tribal lifestyles we barely understand. the switch comes when this tribal communism is replaced with modern communism. i refuse to allow this. call native americans something more objective and then we can discuss content. this seems bad faith imo.

>In the USSR, the typical NEET could walk down to the police station and say they are unemployed, and be assigned some menial task to it. Having done this, he is now safe, and entitled to go back to his commieblock and live a life with guaranteed food and shelter and medical care.
>Not a bad deal if you ask me. Those willing to work are taken care of, those unwilling to work go to gulag.
wtf I love tyranny now

Unironically nazis love native americans

In western capitalist societies, anyone who finds themselves unemployed can go to a local volunteer organization and be given plenty of responsibility.

When they don't have any work to begin with, it's because those in power in capitalist societies see it as a necessity to have a pool of unemployed for the corporations to pick from, so they elect that they can afford to keep some 5-15 percent of the population on welfare, if you then shame them sufficiently for it to take the jobs the first fat cat offers them.

The key is to stop feeling ashamed of being part of a system designed at the outset to oppress you, and just accept its terms, and go do what you think is important.

With just a bit of effort, you might find personal value in volunteer work that far outshines what a McJob could offer, and many have quickly built grand careers with big incomes for themselves, just based on this principle of making yourself and your creativity available at a spot where you can feel useful.

I personally find this a more rewarding model than state-mandated street sweepers, or those traffic guide jobs they dole out to everyone in Japan who's down on their luck.

Nazi here.
No we don't.
They're nothing but a horrible lesson in the dangers of unchecked immigration.

user, in this case it's just you who's a century and a half behind the times.

Thanks for that utterly meaningless soundbite.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture

Plenty of entrypoints available to everyone.
There is always something that needs doing, and you don't need to wait for a businessman to come around and say that you should start doing it.

These terms were invented to describe things. Nobody came up with the idea of communism spontaneously and started looking for places it existed. Historical materialism is the source, it was formulated, and then went about observing human history and classifying these relations of production.
The term communalism/primitive communism was first coined to describe this kind of pre-slave society, thats its definition.

Likewise.

Not that guy, but I can tell that you've never been seriously involved in a creative project. "Designer" is a component that requires the most innate talent (read: intellect) as, unlike art or programming, it can't be easily practiced through constant repetition and yet is the most crucial part of any project as it provides direction.
Also: all decently qualified artists and programmers are, in some capacity, designers. A programmer incapable of design is a worthless code monkey.

neither are online communists

You just described literally everyone's idealized portrayal of Native Americans, and not the mouthwash chugging degenerates they actually are.

Even actual communism wasn't ever "real" communism if you ask a communist.

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To be a real communist you simply need to acknowledge that communism is where human history leads. To say you are a communist is just shorthand for historical materialist. Communism is not a thing anyone can do, it is the natural end state, and so any communist at any given time will be doing something that is not itself communism.

i don't believe the use of the term communism is as objective as you are describing. the term has too much baggage to be used objectively. a better term would be "tribal" or "communalism".

you may be using it purely categorically, if that's the case then we have no argument. but not everybody does.

marxist historians don't have a monopoly on historical language, especially not when some leverage their control over that language to push their ideology in a modern context. a better term is "tribalism".

The nazis needed idealized portraits of other races, to make it obvious how inferior and harmful the jews in particular were.

And the black. And the gay. And the handicapped. And the mentally challenged. And the politically opposed.

Perceived entrypoints, I guess is more accurate. They have been raised to understand ____ standard of living and thus do not see the pipeline to meet that end. I am not saying it does not exist. It does not for everyone, but it still exists. I am saying they do not understand how to obtain it or even that they desire it. They see themselves as victims by being unable to obtain wealth what they perceive to be acceptable means and thus look for alternatives. This is only even a thing because while they do not have the means to accrue their desires in the context they see fit, they are not wanting in base needs like food. Thus, they have a glut of free time.

I think this is the dumbest thing commiecucks actually believe.
If any communists exist ten thousand years from now, they'll still be screaming from their gulags about how we're in "late stage capitalism", while everyone else is colonizing the universe.

Wow, someone actually read the manifesto.

>American education

Communalism is a term often used, ive even used it myself, this is why i am using both terms. This stage is known either as 'communalism' or 'primitive communism'. The primitive is important, it is not communism itself.

The difference is in primitive communism people had no choice, they were just trying to survive and could not form large states or have economic class because there were no owners and workers, everyone had to work constantly to survive.

Whereas primitive communism is this societal structure by necessity, communism is this structure by ease. The entire cycle of relations of production between primitive communism and communism is like a chemical reaction occurring, for a brief period in history technology takes off and we come to terms with our species productive capabilities. The way we are organized and structured, and how our society and the world around us, must change, as we progressively go through the steps. Each stage further develops and refines our productive capabilities and our social relationships. Eventually we arrive at a point that is stateless and classless because doing otherwise would be a needless and non-benificial exertion.

Well then there's literally no point in advocating for communism as sooner or later everyone will naturally gravitate towards it anyway.

yes

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a programmer is to workers what formula 1 is to sports

The reason to bother is the shift between relations of production is always turbulent as the people on top of the old system cling to their advantage, it is in that small minorities self interest to keep things the way they are, and so conflict is always required. The faster and cleaner the transition can be the better overall. So communists are basically trying to pull the band aid off faster rather than slower.

But yes, there are no communists required, eventually communism is inevitable. We cant choose where we end up, only how we get there.

Yes indeed, this is the issue.
In what is supposedly "free" countries of representative parliamentarism, we raise people to believe they should define their self worth through employment, as employment is equated to being of value to society.

This myth that you're only seen as a valuable human to those around you, if you're working for an entity that makes more money on your efforts than it pays out to you, has been seriously harmful to several generations now.

Particularly when you tell them at the same time that they can be whatever they dream of becoming, when dreams, informed wants, and subconscious expectations are three different things, working at different levels to disappoint you when the world gives less than two shits about your dreams.

>a needless and non-benificial exertion.
Sounds like you're talking about arguing with commiecucks.

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Try again.

Unions are needed in jobs where the workers can actually be easily replaced, which is NOT the case with game development.
In a sugar factory, if you fire all the employees, the machines will still be there, ready to be operated by other underpaid people.
In a game company, if you fire everyone, "the machine that actually does the product" go along with it.
And they will probably just create a rival company that will fuck yours.

I have been in the game industry for 20 years, often as a designer
any retard can and often is a designer
they may not be a GOOD designer, but you won't know until it's already too late
programmers are smart, artists are talented, designers should be both but are often neither

>He thinks we need workers anyway

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>But when somebody is advocating for socialism in a modern context, yes, they typically mean worker co-ops and such things, not government ownership.

Yeah nah. Socialists are cheering EVERYTIME at just the thought of nationalising industries. Remember Chavez "Socialism of the 21st Century"? Where is the worker co-op of the oil industry? What is the solution for UK railroads? Not a co-op, that's for sure.
Your small group of stoner friends who discuss some great utopian ideals on a Saturday afternoon don't count.

daily reminder that out of all of the staff required to make a game, only the programmer is useful outside of a gamedev setting :)

nobody gives a shit about your shitty pixel art, or chiptunes or badly written dialog

and games like minecraft prove that art, music and story are a waste of time

all workers who think socialism is a great idea should band together and run their studio that way, then the rest of us can laugh at you as you fail miserably

please stop stuffing up every workplace with your nonsense

Don't generalize.

To use Minecraft as an example and say "story is a waste of time" is a disservice to games that actually do have clever writing

>unions

>games that actually do have clever writing

Nobuo uematsu would like to have a word with you

>which is NOT the case with game development.

With the amount of educations pumping out 3D artists and game-centric programmers for the past decade, this has been changing.

It changed a while ago in VFX for film production, and it's arriving in games too. The key here has been for the industries to constantly remind employess how LUCKY they are that they get to do what they "love" to do at crummy wages, without benefits, and insane overtime requirements.

When you then hire people on project contracts that expire after X game/film/whatever is done, and put your studios in some of the world's most expensive cities, you get highly skilled professionals always worried about who their next sugar daddy is going to be, and selling themselves cheap.

Now, project contracts in VFX comes from the animation background, but it's arriving in games now. And it CAN be cool, because it allows a studio to occasionally scale back and take a chill pill, without actually "firing" anyone. It's just historically been abused heavily, and I'm thinking the unions will want to fight this beast.

Wait a minute, there's an economic principle of Balkanization?
I am interested. Shill your Distributism to me.

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that already happens in 3rd world capitalist countries though

More like onions, am I right?

I mean, am I right guys?

guys

>games that actually do have clever writing
still waiting for one lmao

FF music is pleasant but it isn't going to make a nuclear power plant run properly
programmers are the true architects of the world

haha

it becomes socialism then :^)

>what is Quest for Glory

why

thats very funny user

so they can say socialism is terrible and remind everyone they better keep doing capitalism

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Are you for real though?

Many of not most of the biggest existing game studios in the west have started as a band of nerds with little to no business experience, joining forces and co-owning everything they made.

ok sure but we're talking about the actual quality of the games and having really good music does a lot for a game. it's not fair to disregard it as shitty chiptune music or whatever

>This is true, but not their own survival.
>in the DDR
>in the USSR
>but not their own survival.

Thanks that is the funniest thing I have read today.

Lol these onions boi faggots want to unionize? Maybe they should be more worried about making food games

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>Millons venezuelas goes to other countries

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>They would have all had jobs in the ussr. It was illegal not to.

Right, if you were found outside from 8 to 12 am and not working for the glory of the state, you were taken to the police station and interrogated and beaten up.

Sounds great user.

>food games

It certainly is hard to cook good food without onions.

thats not socialism, that's just healthy teamwork

how many 'nobuo uematsus' do you think are composing for games? the average game musician isn't nobuo, and must realise his "work" isn't very important and could be easily replaced with anyone from soundcloud or royalty free compilations :)

>still waiting for one lmao

There are so many, just search for them.

It would be pointless for me to post a list here as you would just as easily say "those are all shit"

have you ever read a book lol?

I seriously hope you don't believe this.

This is not true, in fact many gopniks kind of only worked occasionally and just spent their time squatting around.
Even they, however, were being more productive than a capitalist.

>that's just healthy teamwork

And that's what user suggested people who love socialism should do.

Am I missing something here?

>game worker union forms
>it gets immediately subverted by marxists that turn it into a moneysink for political activism and ignore advocating for more pay and benefits
>everyone gets fired anyway
I'm all for this desu

Well i can name a bunch of different games with really good soundtracks with different composers who cannot under any circumstance be replaced. I know in this case you're talking about shitty indie devs and yeah you have a point about how self important they are sometimes but still there's quite a few indie games with good soundtracks that cannot be easily replaced

>Am I missing something here?
oh something's definitely missing!

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Its all true user
I have more infographics than this thread has image limit.

Astonishingly despite us realizing that red scare indoctrinated boomers are unlikly to change, we put more effort into trying to convince people than the replies which are all one liners, lies, and helicopter memes.

if only to convert a single comrade it is worth it. Comrades are the most precious thing ;_;

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the monopoly that will drive them out of business

money is a societal construct, what matters is production output, and the west has none because it moved it all to china. Oops.

i wish you grew up in the ussr you stupid fuck

programmers are the only one who works
them and the people who actually make models and art and put it in the game, not just people who get paid to doodle in a notebook

Me too, i know people who did, apart from paranoia that that person following you is kgb it sounded much nicer than the current conditions in the west.
And that was after the revisionists took over! Imagine if stalin was immortal.

Yeah nah, they all had formally a job, they were just slacking at it. My father told me about restaurants he went to (forgot if it was Poland or Russia) in the 80s, the restaurant was empty but had 3 waiters employed. Nobody of them did shit, they were just hanging around, even when my father sat down. They were given jobs at the restaurant just so they had a job. At the glorious state owned restaurant.

>it sounded much nicer than the current conditions in the west.
it wasnt
people were poor as shit
you're fucking retarded

I hope trump sends you to venezuela via fedex

Good games*

>Imagine if stalin was immortal.
nice bait

Many.

Watched many movies as well.

However your statement implies that there are no poorly written books, which is ridiculous. The majority of books have terrible writing, but there are so many books being written every single day that it becomes easy to find a good one.

people are poor as shit in the west too
it was probably poland, they are always starting problems you know, like ww2
the person i know is from st petersburg

>gubmint will fix it, I swear!

why would i want to go to an even worse capitalist shithole?

>our version of communism has never been tried

the best vidya writing doesn't come close to the average book, instead of calling them writers, they should be called wafflers

>the monopoly that will drive them out of business

Dude they have BECOME the monopolies.

EPIC and Valve are two such companies.

read this
chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When-Boris-Yeltsin-went-grocery-shopping-in-Clear-5759129.php
you're terminally retarded

GNP measured in what?

You are a pretty gullible and even worse than /pol/acks who swear that Germany was a paradise under Hitler and how great he was economically.
Because we not only have like 10 years, but the whole history of the Soviet Union and how it broke down under its own weight and stupidity.

I think you mean artists

Lmao why not just give ur country to china

Zhongguo bugmen rise up

>people are poor as shit in the west too
yeah but they can potentially suceed

in the ussr, everyone was equally poor and miserable

do you think they didn't have money in the ussr?

ive typed paragraphs in this thread to get one line replies im just going to post pictures now

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Is it... Mario?

this, they have it so easy

Not vidya

memezuela is capitalist because it has private ownership of property

security is worth infinitely more than luxury

Private property ownership is a state-mandated constellation AND a state-taxed constellation in the first place. It's all a ruse.

>if only I could draw!!

I wonder what would happen to books if the authors had to account for gameplay, branching paths, etc

>Nuclear security is a social construction

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oh no commie user

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OH NO NO NO

(GDP per capita after fall of Soviet Union)

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>dev company makes a contract with a publisher to make game
>Publisher makes a contract destined to fail (I.E setting impossible milestones and only paying based on milestones reached)
>Company forced to pay employees out of pocket until going bankrupt
>Publishers buys out company, they make another game and then are gutted completely.

This is how EA operates and other publishers do it too. Basically unless you're a publisher, the game industry is shit. It's just another example of a jew hovel that sucks up money, throws a bit at the devs, a bit at the advertisers, and a lot in the stock market. They don't do actual work.

>those dips five years ago because of the russian scare

Jesus Christ, people.

Yeah actually now find a real problem with it

>anything that involves a government is bad
Ayn rand died on social security asshole socialism communism and liberalism are bad because of what they want the government to do not because a government is involved

Once again soviet union in comparison.
The overall growth can be attributed to population growth, the habermas bosch method, the overall improvement in technology worldwide, and prob government spending that led to the Soviet Union going broke.

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>*Haber-Bosch method or process

That's a very nice model for a society as a whole, but I'm not sure that "distributism" by itself concerns mandating how private creative businesses invest their money, or how many they should be, or who should be in charge.

Unless, I mean, you were to elect yourself as an autocratic dictator and call yourself a distributist because you thought that everything you did was fair and in the best interest of all.

any programmer can learn how to draw, it's easy
you cannot learn to become a genius, which is required for programming :)

STEM master race

Ok, user.

other way round
artists can learn basic programming
good luck getting most programmers to produce usable art

Programmers don't need to worry about getting unionized since there's literally more programming jobs than people who are fit for them.

wishful thinking is not going to save you user. You are comparing a relatively stable socialist economy that is slowly growing and prospering to a capitalist one burning the fuel of rate of profit that is not sustainable.

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Yes, and it's a great system, one of those things that won't make sense until you put the last piece of the puzzle there, but that's something you'll have to do yourself.

>captialism is bad because it'll collapse someday I swear
>meanwhile communism collapsed 30 years ago

>artists can learn basic programming
'hello world' gets you nowhere, and code written by artists is 100% unoptimised spaghetti garbage

programmers may not be naturally able to produce usable art, but they can easily learn it, because it's not that hard compared to everything a programmer needs to know to do his job

artists live on easy mode, that's why they're paid less and think bernie sanders is a genius

hahahahahahaha

art is a talent, not learned
an artist can learn to use a game engine like Unity
a programmer can't learn to do useful art
so much dishonest, biased shitflinging in this thread

yes, laughing makes the truth go away

communism never collapsed user, because there have only ever been socialists.
how you can look at the state of the west right now and think things are not getting worse i dont know
growing homeless population, ever more outsourcing, pic related. Even the food is starting to taste worse the last few months.

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This a million times

Artists think that being able to use if/else is enough to make games.

>art is not learned
Yeah bro, that's why artists worth a shit spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours learning and training. Just as a joke.

>Programmers aren't workers

Hello, bullshit

Art is learned brosef.
Many have proven that over and over.

It might take longer to learn to make "useful" art than to make "functional" code, but the latter isn't REALLY functional as soon as you have to work with someone else, and you don't know what the fuck you're actually doing.

>the west is getting worse that means communism is great, somehow
>also it wasnt actually communism even though I've been singing the praises of the USSR the entire thread
are you this dumb or just pretending

>hahaha

Is this a new thing here or is it the same idiot over and over again

art is a talent that is then honed
I have seen many artists learn programming
I have not seen any programmers learn art

Yeah fuck off it I had a game business I would just fire everyone who's in a union, which is perfectly legal where I'm from.

>art is a talent, not learned
then why are there art schools?
why was I able to learn it?
it takes 6 months max to learn everything you need to be a competent artist
it takes you 3-5 years to be a competent programmer and they can do MUCH MUCH MUCH more useful things

>an artist can learn to use a game engine like Unity
yeah, poorly because they don't have critical thinking skills, don't know how computers work, dunno how to write code from scratch, only know how to copy paste tutorials

Real artist don't work for corporations
Audiovisual workers just learn to design no art.

It's an old thing here, and you might be the new thing for not knowing that.

Unless you've been away for a while. In which case, welcome back. We missed you.

the ussr was socialist, its in the name even, its one of the s
you dont know what communism is

The problem is that all that point of view is fallacious and just based on propaganda.
The strong aren't privileged, they're simply strong, and others are weak, the weak will be stepped on by the strong, when too many people despair about being weak, they might overpower the strong, but the same moment they want to fly alone, they'll immediately be stepped on by the strong, and that's a good thing, that's how evolution works and what will bring us to the future, communism is a petty attempt to restrain evolution, while fascism speeds it up, that's why all fascists governments immediately multiplied their countries worth and QoL, while every single communist country brought misery and destruction to their citizens.

>yeah, poorly
artists make entire games with Unity and then sell them to great success
any pretentions of quality code you have are irrelevant

I was agreeing, the way you paraphrased his points made me laugh

I started reading more about communism and found some pretty atrocious stuff.

I was stunned when I read about dekulakization and the fact that almost no one knows anything about it or that it happened at all.

>"I'll take stupidest things I've ever posted for 2000, Alex"

Then you really haven't looked very hard.
Also, most programmers don't NEED to learn art. Many games aren't as such art driven.

You can't make a game without code though. No matter how amazing your art is.

if you want an example of a programmer that learned art, look no further than Notch. You might not like the art in Minecraft, but many did, and it has been insanely influential

imagine the artists, musicians, writers, designers actually working overtime to make the goddam game actually WORK

ungrateful mooches

>artists make entire games with Unity
yeah, simple ones and full of bugs

Why do workers think they're entitled to anything? You're all wageslaves, like ants in a hive. Your life doesn't matter.

You image has slightly more to do with corporatism than capitalism by itself, but they two do have a tendancy to show up together.

kulaks burned grain
people starved because of kulaks
its not a game user

Try reading something that isnt propaganda. You need to start with the fundamentals, the dialectical and historical materialism by stalin i posted earlier should be considered the introduction to communism.

tons of ridiculous shit happens in commieland that nobody really knows about
like when the russians drained an entire sea ala HL2 exposing nuclear waste at the bottom of it contaminating everything
or when the chinese blew up their own dams to kill the japanese and killed literally one million of their own civilians (maybe that wasnt the commies though)

>commie fist

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and? programmers even learning to do serviceable art of any kind is extremely rare

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_of_landlords_under_Mao_Zedong

they are the same thing, capitalism leads to it always, its a part of the capitalist stage, its still in the capitalist stage as means of production are still privately owned.

that is lack of interest, not lack of ability
any competant programmer can learn art very easily from lessons, it's not hard at all

How is the stuff you're spewing now NOT based on propaganda? It's a thing Randian brew I tell you.

If you think you're so strong, be stronger than the union. Can't be so hard. Otherwise, accept that they get to boss you around. In the world view you're describing, those than can manage to do something, whatever that something might be, are apparently right to do it.

Why can't the trannies and nose-ring girls just band together and make their own game company?

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>any competant programmer can learn art very easily
you say that like being good at programming means you're gonna be good at art
they use two entirely different areas of the brain
mutually exclusive, you could almost say

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>game workers unite
Lmao. Imagine willingly putting yourself in that awful industry and then complaining about it. Well, whatever, I wish them the best, maybe they can change something. But for me, I wouldn't touch "the industry" with a 20ft pole.

Reminder that louts will open their mouths to talk flak about top lass like clockwork.

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And doubtless you will point to capitalism instead of the real culprits of interventionism and the mixed economy.

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what is it with insane people and infographics

The good kind of union:
>Don't join union
>Get paid more than people who are in the union
The bad kind of union:
>First rule is you are forced to join the union as a worker
What game devs want is the latter, so everyone has to pay for their retarded shittery that will only serve to prevent companies from firing useless diversity hires.

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most game workers aren't even programmers. An actual programmer wouldn't work at a games company. They'd work at a reasonable company for a nice wage without crunch

there is no such thing as a mixed economy, this is based on capitalist ideas to try and control the narrative of what socialism means. Socialism is classless, you cant have 'a little' class, its all or nothing.

Yeah, I'd argue corporatism not only existed before actual capitalism, but also exists inside socialist and communist frameworks.

And that current governments in western free markets vary a lot in their efforts toward fighting the negative side effects it causes.

But I thought the kulaks destroyed their crops and killed their animals in response to the threat of collectivization

I also keep finding people saying "but those countries were not practicing the perfect form of communism/socialism", but if the system is perfect the choice of the actual system is irrelevant, no?

I am sure perfect capitalism, with endless wealth and a thriving economy would also be a very positive system.

>No true Scotsman

>I have seen many artists learn programming
"Learn programming" is a stretch. Most people who claim to be game programmers are script kiddies, the ability to understand and design an engine and it's peripheral systems is rare -- very, very rare. (Very)

>kill all the farmers
>everyone starves
every
single
time

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The numbers and the graphs can't lie, and people you show them to will have to face the fact that you were right all along. For people who want to be right all the time, they're pretty handy.

>being retarded

That's some pretty systemic dogma, user, but whatever helps you maintain a strong worldview and move forward.

People are usually predominantly artists or programmers
artists can learn some programming, to the extent where they can work on level design or animating their own assets or even making entire games in Unity
programmers on the other hand pretty much can't learn any art

Nah, he was just committing a logical fallacy, not being retarded. Happens to us all.

>The numbers and the graphs can't lie
they can actually, if not directly then certainly indirectly through misrepresentation of facts and false conclusions drawn from them

But I am, unions in my country are cucks that just hire on behalf of companies, but what's the point of telling you this on Yea Forums where I could be making it up.
All my opinion comes from over a decade working, not propaganda, unions are a unnecessary evil right now since all the limitations they impose stay but companies learned to work around them to do whatever the fuck they want anyway, the most they can accomplish is getting you a new chair if yours is starting to fail.
You gotta man up and grab the shit yourself, even if you get fired, speak up for yourself and youll realize no fucking Union is needed.
I agree that companies have done a pretty good job scaring their worker shitless about being fired, but you can ALWAYS just get a new job, stop giving a fuck, don't let anybody step on you and you'll realize how far you go with that mindset.
And no, allowing yourself to be stepped on purposely so you don't have to tackle things by yourself is not good, and only creates a sheep mentality.

They pretty much can though, and continuously have.

And historically, they've had to, because they didn't know any artists, and it was just them and their computer.

Yes, I'm aware. I was going for a thin veil of irony there.

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I'm not the guy afraid of not having a job, user. Or losing one.

And what do you care about other people being sheep if you consider yourself stronger than them? Are they not allowed to pursue strength where they can find it?

as I said before, programmers learning any art is very rare
artists learning programming is pretty common
it can be done, this is just a generalization, putting yourself on the high ground and pretending you're better than artists because you're a programmer just isn't true
although you get paid more if you are a programmer and you're less expendable, so there's no reason to feel insecure about it

commie

Because it takes effort and money

They don't really want to put in the former and they don't have the latter.

Oh god, what the fuck are you on about

Programmers learn art all the time in order to create assets.

You people are delusional

Cause I care for my fellow humans and I would like to see them stand for themselves and not resign to be bossed and cucked around by people who aren't even qualified to do any sort of job other than write checks and send emails.
The truly strong want others to also be strong, I would and I have lost a job to stand up for someone who wouldn't have, or who wasn't strong, just so theyll come to the realization that nobody is gonna actually protect them when the real shit happens unless they stand up or people like me exists.
I just do my part, and I know wherever I go no person will be disrespected or stepped upon, and I know if everybody was like this, no abusive boss or company will ever have their way.

>programmers aren't workers
>white-collar workers aren't workers
>workers aren't workers
Shoo, snakefag.

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A mixed economy is a mixture of freedom and controls—with no principles or rules to define either. Since the introduction of controls necessitates and leads to further controls, it is an unstable, explosive mixture which, ultimately, has to repeal the controls or collapse into dictatorship. A mixed economy has no principles to define its policies, its goals, its laws—no principles to limit the power of its government. The only principle of a mixed economy—which, necessarily, has to remain unnamed and unacknowledged—is that no one’s interests are safe, everyone’s interests are on a public auction block, and anything goes for anyone who can get away with it. Such a system breaks up a country into an ever-growing number of enemy camps, into economic groups fighting one another for self preservation in an indeterminate mixture of defense and offense, as the nature of such a jungle demands. While, politically, a mixed economy preserves the semblance of an organized society with a semblance of law and order, economically it is the equivalent of the chaos that had ruled China for centuries: a chaos of robber gangs looting the productive elements of the country.
A mixed economy is rule by pressure groups. It is an amoral, institutionalized civil war of special interests and lobbies, all fighting to seize a momentary control of the legislative machinery, to extort some special privilege at one another’s expense by an act of government—i.e., by force. In the absence of individual rights, in the absence of any moral or legal principles, a mixed economy’s only hope to preserve its precarious semblance of order, to restrain the savage, desperately rapacious groups it itself has created, and to prevent the legalized plunder from running over into plain, unlegalized looting of all by all—is compromise; compromise on everything and in every realm so that no group would step over the line by demanding too much and topple the whole rotted structure.

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journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/download/14623/15692

I know several hundred game developers
of the artists, about 90% of them can do some programming, and 50% can do enough to make an entire game in at least something like Unity
of the programmers, 20% can do passable game art, the remaining 80% won't even touch it

Yes, you said that before. And I answered it before.

Graphics are simply not a strict requirement for games. So programmers don't always HAVE to learn it. But many have done it. With great success even.

And you're talking multiple guys. I'm an artist myself. I can't code for shit really, but I'm learning. I draw crap like pic related.

I do know of quite many programmers that got sufficiently good with producing functional art for their games to be huge successes.

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there is no such thing as perfect anything, capitalism, and socialism, are both stages, and they both follow a progression, early capitalism is not the same as late capitalism, early socialism is not the same as late socialism, likewise feudalism and the slave system are the same.

These relations of production are processes by which human society develops, to claim any of them is correct on its own merits regardless of the conditions of the world and civilization is idealism. They are all transient things that have a beginning middle and end.

Historical materialism picks relation of production as the main way to distinguish these because class conflict is the main catalyst for their progression from one stage to another.

>Chinese blew up their own dams
That was in 1937. It was the nationalists, you dumb fuck. You can't even distinguish between different factions in a war.
>hey Abraham Lincoln bombed his own fort in south carolina, that wacky guy!

Again, you're undermining your own arguments heavily.

Not only CAN programmers learn to make art, they do it all the fucking time. They just don't do it quite as often as artists learn to code.

le marxist larp

Socialism is just the first step on the path to a failed state, while Capitalism keeps on raising the overall standard of living.

The good kind of union:
>Membership is optional

The bad kind of union:
>Membership is mandatory

same shit, who cares

Workers were no lower a proportion of the population during the golden age of labour unions, and its actually in industries where the average worker is most replaceable that unions are the most vital. Your boss might be able to replace you like its nothing. It's much harder to replace 75+ percent of your employees at once.

Why does the modern left only care about workers when they have middle class urban careers?

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Oh yeah, well if Distributism is so good how come its at the top of a pyramid shaped scheme? So it can distribute all the stuff and tell everyone they're their own boss? Nice try, Ponzi.

>socialism is the first step
>capitalist apologists still using the MARXIST definition of socialism
>being so fragile you have to play word games with people to defend your system
Yikes. I bet you're going to tell me democracies don't exist because they're all republics next.

Guess which one soccies are for.

>They just don't do it quite as often as artists learn to code.
That was my point
and 20% vs 90% is a pretty fucking large difference
most programmers cannot learn to art

It also destroys everything in its path that doesn't serve the function of profit maximization, though.

Including entire biomes and cultures.

You're a retard, that's fine. Turn off your modem and go play in traffic while the adults have a grown-up conversation without you.

This guy build full game without arrays or loops, over 350,000 lines code, celeste is around 5000 code lines.

programming level indies or unity developer is way below average industry.

gist.githubusercontent.com/alessonforposterity/832da4fab11e10609dad/raw/258df12378399919ae088ba8731a7571d9c2c947/drgn.txt

commies and nationalists were on the same side during the sino japanese war, and they're chinese all the same

I'm reading a book from fucking 1892 and this guy doesn't want there to be a state under communism.