Why did RTS games lose so much popularity?

Hard to play, does not feel rewarding to play, NA online is TOXIC

And dumbing down RTS games like Dawn of war does not make it any more appealing to new players. Theres really no hope for it

doesn't work on controller

yeah you're right. idk why i said ceiling.
this too honestly

Based and /thread

It's not because of "it's too hard for casuals" like a lot of retards like to claim, but pc gaming was in a very big crisis in the 2000s, lots of devs (mostly rts devs) went bankrupt or were sold, and you had the problem that rts games haven't changed since starcraft and c&c - every game is essentially a reskin of the previous one. And as with everything, you can only reskin shit for so long.

Hiigara,
Home.

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I never stray too far from the sidewalk

Failure to innovate.

Everyone was too stuck on how to make their games more like Starcraft. Closest we got to innovation was probably DoW1 with being able build squads, and upgrade from within squads.

Hell, even WC3 is more innovative than SC2.

Boomers grew old and slow and they prefer gsg now.

except thats not why. do you think people are playing league on controller?

Coh was pretty innovative

Dawn of war 2 was a unique and fresh take on RTS and that game swam like a brick. Yeah it's hella fun with ELITE mod but it's microscopic playerbase means it will never be popular

AoE 4 and AoE 2DE will revive RTS

They're just a very quiet community

because they suck monkey diarrhea asstits

>relic
nigga did you already forget the dumpster fire that was Dawn of war 3?

what if you had an rts game where one one team it's an rts, running a base or something, building fortifications and countermeasures, and on the other team it's an fps, and you have to fight off whatever the rts side is throwing at you and break down the defences and whatnot.

>DoW2
get that shit outta my face, nigguh.

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>rts
>online
There is your issue, everyone tries to make starcraft

Because in the end there was no strategy, just hyperactive scrolling and whoever had more APM won.

>campaign is more rpg
>skirmish is more rts
I love it but I know why the mp failed
It's also stripped of macro elements, base-building, scouting, harassment and so on.
It really doesn't take much for games to feel repetitive

>muh massive battle to satisfy my ADHD
40k works better as a tactical game. DOW2 plays exactly like real time table top it's bizarre how faithful it is

>even WC3 is more innovative than SC2.
Also more influential, despite everything else trying to b a starcraft clone

Not sure, I personally lost interest in every RTS besides competitive BW a long time ago and looking back the only reason I got into it was because of how insane learning high level BW play actually was compared to the casual game or even average bnet player. It kept it addicting enough until all of a sudden you're playing in the B ranks against other people also playing this insane game within a game.

Now days I'd love to play a good slow paced RTS that focuses almost entirely on tactical play but it seems like every RTS wants to be fast fast fast.

There was a sourcemod where a team of players played tower defence and a guy commanded the attack from an rts perspective.
Gimmicky at best

>muh reasons
DoW was fun and found a pretty sweet spot to take up. It also found an audience who liked it. DoW 2 and 3 didn't and you can never claim otherwise.

They're very hard to play properly, casuals can't get into it because they don't get to build the "grand base" they want; they lose before that.
It's also not fun to be forced into 2-4 builds every game to compete. The opening 5 minutes are relatively boring every single time, and past that it's too intense for even the best players to watch Everything.
Another thing is that they can't be graphically amazing since they need a high level of visual fidelity to remain conducive to gameplay.

AFAIK, the most popular RTS ever was Warcraft 3, which had a comparatively slow pace and hero units that you could identify with and choose differently between every single game.
But, what carried War3 wasn't the melee/base game; it was the Campaign and custom game community.

Since the people who made custom games are now actual game developers, ios developers, indie trash, etc. we can and will never see the same kind of spontaneous innovation that custom maps gave to the world.

why is it dead then save for the same dozen Koreans that play it? And why does Blizzard lie about remaking it?

DoW 2 wasn't unique, because it was just a warcraft 3-ified CoH, CoH being the unique game.

That already exists user. It's called natural selection 2 on steam.

Skill ceiling is too high for normies.

DOW3 was hot trash you're right about that, DOW2 was great tho

Seven Kingdoms 2 Frythan Wars. Thank me later user.

In NS2 one player for each team is the commander, problem is that there's too much weight on their shoulder and they make or break most matches.

and it's dead as fuck. RTS is just a niche genre, and outside of SC2 and WC3 there will NEVER be a popular one.

People are just too stupid. Its that simple

It's not dead

>why is it dead then save for the same dozen Koreans that play it?

2 reasons:

1. It is almost an 18 year old game, and requires beefier computers to run than original SC. (asians IN asia are slow to upgrade their computers for some reason).

2. Valve giving the DotA creators money drew the Moba crowd and modding community away from WC3.

Years ago at the first ever Blizzcon (2005) one of the devs talked about WC4 still happening. I guess that never ended up happening, but I think now would be the time to do it, since WoW has gone to absolute ass.

Does it have an active multiplayer community?

solo = artificial difficulty

online = autism.

The only thing I liked about DoW2 were the additions of actual cover and item drops. The multiplayer was sadly dead when I tried it.

This also
Most players play with the ai to learn and end up only knowing how to cheese and turtle, then they go online and get stomped by people who know what they're doing

Theres no such thing as skill floor.
I played SC when i was 10. Sure i was absolute trash, but so was everyone else.

The problem is that eventually after the initial explosion in popularity, the inflow of new terrible players decreased, then almost disappeared altogether. This created a self-reinforcing loop where weak players either improve or quit and no new weak players come to replace them. This is how the skill floor appeared.

Since SC is a 1v1 game with relatively little luck involved, the weak players have no chance to get carried or win by chance.
As result, the playerbase slowly evaporates from the bottom up.

Because the genre itself can't offer much more.
Just gather resources, build only the structures that will give you the most efficient units and move to destroy the enemy base. If you do it fast enough you win, that's it. It makes it kind of boring that you have like 10 possible units but you only need 2 and nobody really managed to make that better so I guess the genre evolved into more complex things like 4x or got heavely dumbed down like Theme Hospital type of games.

I personally liked what they did with Heroes of Annihilated Empires. It's an RTS still but with many RPG elements and a decent story. Too bad the formula didn't get too popular.

You can't blame your teammates when you lose.

>The problem is that eventually after the initial explosion in popularity, the inflow of new terrible players decreased, then almost disappeared altogether. This created a self-reinforcing loop where weak players either improve or quit and no new weak players come to replace them. This is how the skill floor appeared.
Bnet players never went away my dude, the bad players just never played ICCup.

>the mp failed
What? I'm still playing it every day.

Ultimate Apocalypse modshitter detected

because the skill floor being too high for the average retard.

What's the difference between RTS and MOBA? I play neither.

>Theres no such thing as skill floor.
Yes there is, an fps asks you to point and shoot.
An rts asks you to know what all your units do, what all the enemy units do, who counters what, and to have micro and macro skills, all these are essential:
If you know how to macro but don't know what units to get you'll lose, if you know both but can't micro for shit you'll lose.
There's too much for lots of new players to take in and no clear way to improve beside asking better players

I agree with this. They stopped coming up with new ideas. Then DotA came and provided a fresh experience and people flocked to it.

It has, like, 20 players

huh wait, is there any warcraft 3 clone out there?
there are a lot of starcraft 2 and diablo 3 clones. that, i know

Rts are games where you control resources gathering, unit production and micro.
In mobas you only control one unit

100-500 players depending on the time of day. That's more than enough for a 10 years old strategy game.

I remember playing it years ago and finding only a couple of lobbys filled with top ranking players who would kick you if you didn't have the stats

Mobas are closer to action RPGs. Imagine something like 5v5 Diablo.

Starcraft turned the entire genre into E-sports and other more casual players strayed into other similar genres such as turn-based strategy (Civilization, Stellaris, etc) or hybrid genres (Total War). Also, the death of the Command and Conquer series didn't help.

>lobbys filled with top ranking players who would kick you if you didn't have the stats
Well, I'm one of them, so I don't have that problem.

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>the bad players just never played ICCup.
I played for quiye a bit on ICCup even though i was absolute trash.
I only played LT and literally my only strategy in TvT and TvP was to drop tanks on the cliff behind natural and hope my opponent quits. If i failer i'd just sit in my base and lose eventually. In TvZ i moved marines and tanks around, even won like 1 in 10 games. Buy by modern SC:R ladder standard i'd be at 1100mmr at most. And yet, befote playing my first iccup games, i was considered "good at starcraft" by my friends who i played LAN with.
Compared to those thousands of kids who casually played SC by LAN with friends, the modern "F-tier scrubs" would be absolute gods. Thats how much the skill floor has risen. But it USED TO be pretty low.

DoW2 multi was radically different from SP, it was more like CoH but centered at gearing/research into countering incoming enemy force.
I preferred it to 1 because it cut the fat and make fighting more reliant on positioning and abilities instead of cheese blobs and eldar fuckery.
It made talking about game here both harder an easier.
Harder because SP gave people impression that MP is also Diablo/MOBA like.
Easier, because it revealed the SP/4vs4/compstomp only shitters in threads.

I'm sure newcomers appreciate not being able to play.
Good for you if you enjoy it but if your game is not gaining new members you can only lose them

Ditching GFWL sure made the game 100000000 times better, especially when you compare Steam vs GFWL multi servers

Just Automatch nigga

>Automatch
>find same guy over and over
Wargame has the same problem, lots of other rts too

Dow2 was proto assfaggots and complete garbage.

If you don't kick them then they will ruin the game for everyone else. No one is stopping them from creating 'noob' servers.

It doesn't work anymore.

Yea, but eventually you will have the rank and meanies will stop kicking you out.

All you need to know to play RTS is how to command your units and how to build more.
All those concepts you described are only needed if you dont want to be a complete scrub. The problem, as i have said, is nowadays if you are a complete scrub, you cant find any opponents of your level - they have already got gud or left the game.

That's not how it works. The rank doesn't mean shit in DoW2, since you can edit it with Steam achievement manager. People just look if your stat is blank.

In theory, RTS are very stressful and difficult to play.

In practice, this isn't really the case though.

Starcraft 2 is now very accessible with the new coop missions, which plays quite relaxed like e.g. League of Legends. Team games, e.g 4vs4, or vs the AI, are popular as well and take away from the 1v1 pressure.

This stuff should be marketed more.

RTS was killed because there was major market saturation in 2004-2006 followed by industry shift to consoles in 2007.
For some reason in the period 2005-2010 most big franchises "reinvented" themselves into flops.
The only 2 big players that came out in this period were Supreme Commander and CoH/DoW

The game IS really old now and people playing with Elite mod only. I remember Relic patching the game making automatch working with that mod, but you still need to get someone to play with outside the game.
That is the fate of any RTS now that is not AOE2 or ending title on "craft".

Nah, Starcraft is full of scrubs, and games like Forged Alliance Forever as well.

You can easily find a match with bad players.

>noob lobby
>40 mins to fill
>experienced players join anyway
It's just a hassle to set up and play, compare it to coh2 where everyone just uses automatch, way more noob friendly.
low players Lobby based rts are always a pain to get into.

>people playing with Elite mod only
That's not true.

>because the skill floor being too high for the average retard.

"Zerg rushing" some pre-build garbage and hoping that your opponent doesn't counter it while attempting to scout his base doesn't take a genius. You're basically playing poker over and over and that shit isn't fun from a gaming standpoint since they're doing the same thing. It becomes an autistic, twitchy game of cards.

Blizzard made "no fun allowed" popular.

The question isn't so much "Why did RTS games die" so much as it is "Why were new RTS games worse than older ones"
The answer is of course the transition from 2D to 3D.
RTS should have remained 2D, like many fighting games wisely did.

If you've ever watched SC pro games, it always boils down to both teams don't have any resources left, and whoever gets luckiest with the macro with their remaining units wins. The skill with RTS is hardly flexible, everyone just does the exact same things but with different factions/races/units.
We need an RTS with advanced Empire at War-tier macro, and the space/ground battles would be minimal micro and more dependent on your macro's decisions and stratagem that lead you to that particular battle.

>people who know what they're doing
You mean use other cheese tactics?

1. A lot of them just tried to copy SC and failed.
2. The games are difficult to play well, much less at a competitive level.
3. MOBA’s were similar yet much easier, which basically took their audience overnight.
4. Some of them were plagued with unimpressive launches (SC2 WOL was meh, CoH2 was a mess, etc.)

They innovated plenty, it's just people stopped buying those in favor of StarCraft. The problem is that Starcraft became too big, and crashed the genre.

>compare it to coh2 where everyone just uses automatch
Well, obviously coh2 in a better situation since it's still supported by devs.
>low players Lobby based rts are always a pain to get into
So don't. if noobs can't get into the game then it's their problem.

The only change between 2d and 3d is that sprite based rts don't have pathfinding to deal with

This is a lie, casual matches in CnC, where you had a timer before you were able to attack were the norm.

It became too multiplayer focused.
Though that is true for every genre.

>creating 'noob' servers
>Calling anyone else a noob when playing assfaggots
Just make the switch to dota already so we can get real, good, warhammer games again.

>everything I don't like is a moba

>High skillfloor
>Focus on apm and micro instead of strategy
>Shorter and shorter matches
>Very stressfull
>Stale gameplay
>Little ressources and valuable guides or tutorials
Wargame is what RTS should have been. Massive maps, strategically focussed and not down to individual unit management where every second is important. RTS tried to become action games and it failed.

>so don't
>why are rts dead fucking casuals are too dumb!
We're discussion accessibility here you retard

Most SC games don’t get to the point where the map is mined out. But yeah if you have a shittier economy it will be a reason why you lose.

CnC was the only thing that kept RTS fun. It was a nice mix of casual and campy, and seriously competitive. It always included units that were unbalanced or just awful for competition, but still kept things grounded enough that competition was still possible. It was "balanced enough."

When it died, so did all of RTS.

>everyone I don't like is a noob
Enjoy your dead cartoon game.

>"Why were new RTS games worse than older ones"
Because Westwood died.

3D never hindered RTS, especially considering TibSun and RA2 both use 3D.

>turtle at chokepoint because AI send lots of small units in waves
>good player sees your defences, captures the rest of the map, masses army and artillery to overwhelm defences

There’s a fair amount of micro in WG, like turning off fire at will on scouts, de/re activating missiles, making sure your expensive units don’t die horribly.

Accessibility is important in new games. If a game is 10 years old and already has its own community then attracting new players is pointless, since they will ruin the game for everyone else.

Esports is the biggest meme and has killed many games

You literally listed all of them.

>people who don't know how to play the game are noobs
And yes, I am enjoying it, thanks.

Honestly if you even know how to play RTS a little bit I’m sure you can start playing SCII and get to gold league pretty quick as long as you learn basic build orders and unit comps.

Yeah, it’s still a thing though.

>thread about why aren't rts more popular
>who cares
user?

>assumptions

I think you right on that, but that's not the case with less traditional RTS games.

lrn2english playing all those gookclickers have rotted your brain.

For me, I was not fast enough when it came to controlling more than 3 groups of units to react. Easiest method was to wipe out someone early otherwise I would get btfo. I got better with time, but eventually the friend I played with and helped me learn how to play against better people dropped off the map. Lost interest and went back to shooters.

Stop pushing sc2, it's shit and not fun. The only reason it got big was because of esports and that market has moved to mobas now.
RTS will only comeback if there are good stories and fun mechanics

>who cares
What? Where is that quote came from?

empires, it was based

>Failure to innovate
Moron

Its more like nostalgiafags just sit on older titles and never buy new innovative games

I still don't understand how it's apparently so popular.

>good stories
retard

RTS are very fun and accessible in large team games. Its really fun to just roll with your team, and fight alongside with them. With a proper rating system, noobs and pros playing together works surprisingly well also.

A popular way to play Forged Alliance forever is 8v8.
This should be kind of the default mode for RTS. This style of play is seriously underrated and could replace mobas as the next trend.

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nigger have you ever tried to control a dragoon?

>never buy new innovative games
If nobody wants it then it's not really innovative is it

People that complain about APM over strategy were never good at RTS to begin witch.
Short 1vs1 matches are a good thing because people have to work you know.
Massive 10vs10 matches are just a total shitfest with 0 strategy involved unless players are a coordinated team that know each other irl.

most RTS games are designed around 1v1 and teamplay is an afterthought
There's not really indepth options for working together, they play more like a set of 1v1s than an actual team game

Killed by fps and the ps1 controller/home console. I had age of empires 2 on ps2 I think and it controlled like dog shit

Play Planetary Annihilation: Titans you fags.

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It helps build confidence, can get tips from pros and see how they play, as well as its easier to cover up someone fucking up and 8v7 isn't as bad as 1v0 or 2v1

>90% of the thread is multiplayer discussion
It was probably that to be honest

looks like shit

No?

False. There is a lot more than that: microing squads in and out of buildings, reversing your tanks to face threats properly, making sure your helos don't hover over trees so that they're not at high altitude, microing radar SAMs against SEAD, microing aircraft

i don't like the artstyle, sorry

>Stories
What?

Once Korea starts magically offering large lump sums of NEETbux and screen time for pro-players, you'll see a ton of glorified RTS poker tournament gamers wanting it. Naturally, that game will have to have SC3 in the title even if it's just a rehash of the previous two games.

>noobs and pros playing together works surprisingly well also.
Not really.

PA is shit and you should kys yourself if you think it's a good game

what?

Normies buy games and most of them just play the story and casual online. You do not create a successful game by marketing at people who are good enough at rts to play high level competitive

Yes because now the pro has 1.5 economies to play with.

Don't play dumb, faggot.

>Proper rating system
Rating system ruined everything
>noobs and pros playing together works surprisingly well also
An amusing delusion

yeah, they need to stop designing then around 1v1

why do you think there's no middle ground between mouthbreathers who want a story in an RTS game and professional gamers

It is a good game and I will not kill myself. You just aren't hardcore enough to qualify for bronze.

It's always irritating when you are doing your best and some faggot in your team has no idea what to do.

I have no clue what your post is about, maybe it was directed at someone else

Nigga i've watched every major (ASL/KSL) BW tournament in the last 2 years, and i can clearly tell you are talking out of your ass.
I have seen wins by blind Build Order. I have seen wins by mindgaming the opponent into using wrong build order. I have seen wins by micro blunders and by micro excellence. I have seen wins by taking small advantage and slowly choking your opponent. I have seen wins by perfectly timed timing attacks. I have seen wins by decisive attacks from economically weak positions. I have seen comebacks from failed all-ins. I have seen comebacks from barely surviving an all-in. I have seen wins from perfectly outpositioning the opponents army.

I mean, SC2 had 2 story expansions that were liked well enough so your argument goes pretty flat there.

Additionally shit like CS:GO, LoL and DOTA2 all advertise play at high levels are are doing fine.

You're a fucking idiot if you think the majority of people who bought rts games and played them were any good or had time to get good. That's why paradox and civ games rule now, easy to play and keep track of whats going on even loading up a save game tomorrow

I'm not the retard that you were replying to. I'm just taking your claim of:
>If nobody wants (a new RTS) then it's not really innovative is it

At face value. The entire genre is dominated by Starcraft e-sports wannabes.

Singleplayer games aren't cool on Yea Forums

It never lost popularity it just never was popular enough to justify a AAA budget in current year. They always did and still do sell around 1-3 million copies over the first year and that used to be enough to keep making expansions and sequels but today that is barely enough to keep around 10 to 20 people staffed, not 100.

RTS games have always been propped up by multiplayer. Tactical games against AI just become puzzle games and are meant to be played against other humans.

This.

micro focused APM autism is impressive but it makes sure nobody except the most dedicated will play your game, and when your community does not get fresh blood it just dies
also it's a really good book, goes from describing how arcade and home PC development took place side by side and then how arcades became consoles for domestic consumption, also talks about mobile gaming opening the industry up to even larger casual audiences

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They’re the ultimate “git gud” game. Losing a 1v1 in an RTS, unless you’re actually a pro player, is always because you didn’t play well enough and your opponent played better than you. It’s tough to lose like this and that’s why so many people develop “ladder anxiety” over RTS games. It’s pretty humbling to get your shit kicked in by a player that is just way fucking better than you. Same applies to fighting games for the most part. You can’t blame your team, or the spawn locations or whatever. And usually, you know exactly where things started to go wrong for you and how you fucked up.

I don’t play anymore but RTS games will always be special to me, as I think they’re up there in terms of pure skill required to play at the high level

If you have the low rated noob on your team, you will have more high rated players on your team to compensate.

it all evens out.

How is a system that makes sure you're facing an opponent of the same skill bad? There's a reason why games without ranking systems are mostly dead.

I mean if a new game comes along that you claim is innovative but nobody actually wants to play it then I would say it wasn't really innovative because even if it expresses new ideas those ideas have no value
Innovation generally means GOOD new ideas, and there really haven't been any good new ideas in RTS games, there has been alot of bad ones though

You are 100000% talking out of your ass and this is obvious to anyone that has ever played the game.

Watch any Starcraft e-sports match and you'll realize that it's equal parts head games and skill--not unlike poker.

Never touched it, retard.

Because just like arena shooters the genre became stagnant and overcrowded. There were far too many games that were effectively just reskins of each other to a point where they even had the exact same control scheme and basic tech tree/unit setup.

Just take something like DUNE II and compare it something more recent like Starcraft 2. While the graphics and controls(mouse control+ drag to select) improved otherwise both games are almost identical. And if you were to take something more recent like Warcraft III and compared it to Starcraft II you are looking at virtual clones. 18 years and there is almost no change in how the genre operates (outside of minor tweaks).

Compare this to the FPS genre. Can you take something from 1992 and 2010 and claim that both games are basically identical safe for graphical fidelity? No not really FPS games have moved away from the Wolfenstein 3D formula almost as soon as the hardware improved. Meanwhile RTS games effectively remained the same.

And even when a innovator appeared it was usually ignored. For example Armies of Exigo:
- came up with the concept of super groups which allow you to put you regulator control groups complete with a nice graphical interface.
- it also used a unit leveling system where units not only increased their stats but also gained auras that boosted lower level units. Meaning you unit spam was not the best tactic anymore but also loosing a leveled unit was not too much of loss.
- also dual map concept. Where you had two maps one above and one bellow ground making map exploration and control far more engaging.

None of these features were even expanded upon by other games of the genre since. And Armies of Exigo has been largely forgotten.

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Brainlets

I played high level SC, I know. The “mind games” aspect is included in the skill I mentioned. Being able to strategize around your opponent is definitely something you learn

competetive meme
RTS games are best played with or against friends

yeah there's no RTS games without unit levelling apart from the one you mentioned

Multiplayer might constitute the "long tail" of a game* but I haven't met many people whose interest in RTS was the multiplayer.
As another poster mentioned this is probably why Paradox, Firaxis, and Creative Assembly games are still going strong - they focus on delivering a singleplayer experience, though there's a multiplayer option too
* in my opinion custom games and mods were what really kept games interesting for a long time, naturally this isn't a big deal anymore because most developers have chosen to restrict the digital freedoms of their customers

Fuck off with 1v1s and go for 2v2 or more

>I mean if a new game comes along that you claim is innovative but nobody actually wants to play it then I would say it wasn't really innovative because even if it expresses new ideas those ideas have no value

The vast, vast majority of contemporary RTS players are in it for the fame and money. Everyone else fucked off and are playing hybrid genres like Total War or Civilization. Some rando commando company could come up with the most innovative RTS ever but if there isn't NEETBUX cash monies and "stardom" involved, no one will give a fuck. Blizzard has this market absolutely cornered.

>RTS thread
>apm
>esports
>SC
Yeah you wonder why this genre is dying...

Men of War is fun, even though they've been re-releasing the same game for 10 years now. Guess that's Real Time Tactics though.

>The vast, vast majority of contemporary RTS players are in it for the fame and money
are you retarded?
the only RTS esport that was ever popular was Starcraft, and that's not really a thing anymore

So, to recap the points of all autists ITT:
>Easily created and shared SP content
>Team game balance more than an afterthought
>Automatch as main way to get into games
>Lobbies still present for alternative game modes/ maps
>Competent AI to practice against
>The journey of a new player goes:
>Tutorial->campaign->Skirmish->Big team games->small team games->1v1s
>easily sharable replays, good spectator mode
>Constant updates
Am I missing anything?

>Armies of Exigo
>innovation
It was a fucking wc3 reskin, it's guilty of every single thing that you've listed

Because by day six of online the professional gamers have destroyed the will of all non professionals to play, sealing the game's fate. It happens /every single time/ an RTS comes out and eventually all the people who can build one have been bitten by the bitter realization that their work comes down to a couple of poopsocking goons mathematically solving their game as quickly as autistically possible. I 'member going from holding my own in a slowly losing battle to getting turbo dumpstered every single time over the course of release weekend in Armies of Exigo simply because I didn't keep up with the meta discussions that were occurring on the forums. Getting gud is an unreasonable investment of time for a game that won't survive beyond two or three months.

No, I am not talking about units just getting levels the point is that instead of stats they gain auras that boost units around them. So you can loose a few leveled units and replace them with non-leveled ones without being straight up gimped by it.

The aura system also promotes mixing and matching units to get the most out of them. So just spamming riffles like in WC3 is not anymore the best/only strategy.

Because it's boring and for autists.

>high skill ceiling
>just click on things really fast
lol

Name another RTS game that is nearly as popular and/or name some that dares to compete with it. I'll wait, retard.

They are billions is pretty good, very stressfull so it's a good thing it's has a pause button

Ladder anxiety

>Multiplayer might constitute the "long tail" of a game* but I haven't met many people whose interest in RTS was the multiplayer.
I don't know a lot of people who don't want to play multiplayer for RTS, for me it's the whole appeal.

>As another poster mentioned this is probably why Paradox, Firaxis, and Creative Assembly games are still going strong - they focus on delivering a singleplayer experience, though there's a multiplayer option too
Not really RTS games except in multiplayer and even then only somewhat.

>* in my opinion custom games and mods were what really kept games interesting for a long time, naturally this isn't a big deal anymore because most developers have chosen to restrict the digital freedoms of their customers
I don't agree that the editors and mods are what made the games so strong but I will admit I certainly miss them. The old map editors used to be incredibly robust and I do miss them.

Innovation does not necessarily mean you have to reinvent the wheel for it to be innovation.

DOOM is also mostly a Wolfenstein 3D reskin with much of the same gameplay and weaponry but it made a lot of small technical and gameplay improvements that set it apart from Wolf 3D.

Same applies to Exigo. It is mostly a WC3 clone yes, but that does not invalidate its own innovations.

Did I say that Starcraft wasn't the most popular RTS? Because it was, doesn't mean its the only one that ever mattered, especially in the West

Because RTS games are for smart people who like strategy. Most people are not smart. QED.

online games usually have a ranking system and you can also play with friends

So you admit that you're a fucking moron and have no argument besides, NO U. Stop posting.

>DOOM is also mostly a Wolfenstein 3D reskin with much of the same gameplay and weaponry
have you even played either of those games?

>RTS should have remained 2D
So they could be as deep as your brain? Lmao fuck off faggot.

they stopped improving

What? You're arguing against something I didn't even say and I'm the moron somehow? RTS esports outside of Korea are essentially non-existent. There was a brief period where SC2 was a thing but we all know how that turned out

If you are an asocial aspie who has no business playing strategy games maybe.

Part of strategy is to fucking communicate with your team members. This includes telling them what to do sometimes.

RTS is inherently an abstract unrealistic type of game.
The most realistic you make your graphics, the worst the unrealistic aspects look.
Keep the graphics as simple as the mechanics.

Starcraft 2 was bad, then Dawn of War 2 was bad.

What keeps you guys hooked on an RTS?
I always drop out of them after a dozen or so MP matches because I find them stressful

>tell someone what to do
>cyka blyat I fak your mom bitch

Is the balance still fucked in favour of the shitty 1v1's? Being on tech 2 in 5 minutes in a 1v1 is fucking absolutely retarded, and KILLS the huge team games.

You're the shit one here buddy.

>REAL TIME STRATEGY is an unrealistic type of game
Absolutely retarded.

number of interested people didn't really change, but when they used to be like 10% of PC gaming in the days, now they only make less than a percent thanks to casual shit, LOL, card games and so on.

They kind of are
Real life armies have a chain of command, in an RTS you're one dude in charge of every individual soldier

If a game can be summed up as a custom game mode to an older game, then it's not really innovating, is it? Armies of Exigo plays like it's a paid custom map for WC3 and it doesn't even try to hide it, what with nearly identical ui and mechanics like creep. I'm mostly just saying that AoE falls into your own argument as an example of stagnation, not as an exception from it. You could've used a way better example, like Black & White 2 or something.

>This includes telling them what to do sometimes.
>"dude can we focus on this side? I don't think we're going to push through your side"
>"Fuck you, muted"

>the only RTS esport that was ever popular was Starcraft, and that's not really a thing anymore
>and that's not really a thing anymore

>Did I say that Starcraft wasn't the most popular RTS? Because it was

Because it still IS, retard--for the reasons I listed.

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They were like 50% of PC gaming in their heyday

That's why you make friends and find people that aren't mentally retarded. RTS is not going to give you instant gratification but when things go right they give you the best feeling ever.

I get the feeling you're intentionally missing my point to look epic on an imageboard.

This is the most retarded thing said in the whole thread

Try playing an actual RTS first user. 1v1 is so shallow it may as well not be called strategy.

Not a casual genre.

Those ranking systems reflect the makeup of the people who play the game. After week three that's pretty much exclusively giga tryhards with a tiny influx of unwitting new meat every friday afternoon and saturday morning. It's common to see almost no activity at all between the middle top and very bottom of the leaderboards because everyone else has already quit and there's no realistic way to get out of a skill ghetto that deep or be demoted from that high of a tower.

Kids today have absolutely fucked up dopamine receptors. RTS just don't give them any "drive".

Your point is stupid as fuck user. 2d > 3d? Lmao.

Starcraft as an esport might be a thing in Korea, it's not in the rest of the world, RTS is dead, the only time RTS esports were a thing in the west was during SC2's popularity
if you think there's a western RTS esport scene or there's even a "vast majority" of RTS players in 2019 you're delusional

Yes I did. In fact I played wolfenstein 3D on Dos with keyboard(no mouse) and later doom with much the same setup and while they were different it would be stretch to say they dont share a lot in common, especially in their original incarnations on Dos and Win 95.

Whats your point exactly? That because Doom has a better engine and more projectile enemies its somehow a completely different game from Wolfenstein?

this and they are fucking hard to get into for the beginners. MOBAs pretty much have a character suited to everyone's play style

Doom improvements over W3D might seem trivial today but they were massive back then

Passive gameplay. Thats it.

social aspect aka casual teamgames among friends, this goes for mobas too
I lost my competitive drive years ago

RTS games are also ridiculously hard to make.

like what? All RTS games are 1v1 games, even in team games there's no chain of command, there isn't even any real options for teamplay like DOTA you're basically just playing your respective 1v1s and helping out your teammates when you're done with your opponent

>Passive gameplay
?

Because companies decided to chase the esports money and disregarded everything else.

Wolf3D was barely a game. It was basically just a maze game, the gameplay sucked. Doom invented FPS

Let me quote my entire post again since you're a fucking moron and cannot into second grade reading comprehension:
>The vast, vast majority of contemporary RTS players are in it for the fame and money. Everyone else fucked off and are playing hybrid genres like Total War or Civilization. Some rando commando company could come up with the most innovative RTS ever but if there isn't NEETBUX cash monies and "stardom" involved, no one will give a fuck. Blizzard has this market absolutely cornered.

>Everyone else fucked off and are playing hybrid genres like Total War or Civilization.

The west doesn't care about this genre anymore outside of Age of Empires 2 and Westwood nostalgia fags.

Except it's a glorified tower defense, not a proper RTS game.

On a tangent, I think DOOM 2016 was successful because it was just trying to be a fun fast singleplayer game at a point in time when almost every major FPS was trying to be the next big multiplayer king.
Did Doom 2016 even have multiplayer on release?
I think a similar opportunity exists for RTS today.
A lot of people playing cousin genres of RTS like Total War and so on would probably love a game with simple campaign like Dark Crusade and fun classic style battles.

>The west doesn't care about this genre anymore outside of Age of Empires 2 and Westwood nostalgia fags.
exactly
that's the vast majority of contemporary RTS players, and I don't think people are playing Red Alert for esports fame
Also your hostility is completely needless and makes you look like an idiot

Baby steps are still steps.

My point was not that Exigo is some mega evolutionary leap but that almost nothing it introduced ever appeared again. Which is how the RTS genre stagnated.

Big or small improvements never really stuck around and the genre simply slowly wilted away.

Tourist post.

>only 1 friend that plays RTS
>He's too autistic to play anything besides COH2 because muh immersion
Life sucks

So you agreed with me all along but you can't admit that you're an illiterate retard. Like I said several posts ago: stop posting.

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>This includes telling them what to do sometimes
I want to play a game, not babysit some faggot who has no idea how to play.

>All RTS games are 1v1 games
>mentions team games
The fuck are you even saying retard?

>even in team games there's no chain of command
Then you make one yourselves. You and your friends get together and agree that one dude is in charge and orders the others around. Hell you can even swap roles on a per game basis to see who enjoys what role more. Basically, you're a moron and strategy games aren't for you.

not at all. its more like there is a meta where some starting positions prepare for early game, and some for late game effectiveness.

On the technical front yes. They were massive but gameplay wise not so much.

>DOW2 plays exactly like real time table top
Reminder that the audience that plays games and doesnt like the table top is about 10 billion times the size of the 'recreate the table to experience' audience.

>You and your friends get together and agree that one dude is in charge and orders the others around
Nobody does that you idiot
You can play them as a team yes, there's just very little coordination or teamplay required to succeed

If you're too autistic to make friends to play games with them stick to 1v1's, sport.

no, I disagree that the vast majority of RTS players care about fame and money, because the vast majority of RTS players are wierdos who still love C&C and AoE2 or whatever

I really wished SC1 was popular in the west.

Reminder to play Cossacks 3

e-sports kills every genre it touches

DOW II created an unnecessary schism in the Dawn of War franchise where suddenly it was about two were different playstyles. This is partially why DOW III failed, because it tried to play both sides of its fanbase and failed to satisfy either.

Why the fuck would "chain of command" matters?
Ruse has a chain of command technically, you're a guy sitting at a table and your orders to units are relayed by another guy.
>Move order
>"Commander, move at position"
>"Moving!"
It's retarded and adds nothing to the game

>there's just very little coordination or teamplay required to succeed
Until the other team has better coordination and teamplay.

>Nobody does that you idiot
I do. And I organise matches against other clans too. Shits fun as fuck.

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I don't just mean irl friends, early SC2 with Yea Forums was a lot of fun. Most people were chill, the few autists quickly adjusted or fucked off.

This is very poetic considering how bad the hitboxes are in CS:GO

But I have friends who are good at RTS and I play with them. it doesn't make noobs any less of cancer.

>Why the fuck would "chain of command" matters?
attention is a resource
if RTS games had a chain of command you could have real multi-front battles, as it is right now you basically just skirmish with one force and maybe a few airdrops or flanks around the side, it doesn't feel like a real war

Strafing and projectile based enemies are a real game changer.
Doom also removed points and added powerups.
It essentially transformed fps from a "get in room, trade hp, get health" to a skill based genre. Even today if you play them back to back you'll see how big of a difference there is.

Chain of command is by definition not RTS. More like MMO, where you need to think about leadership roles to manage your team of individuals.

>Stronghold games shit outside of Crusader and 1
>Nobody plays any AoE besides 2
>DoW playerbase split and recent one is shit
>Battle for Middle Earth will never get a third installment and Reforged is never coming out
What a sad time to enjoy rts

CoH2 is alive and well.

You want comedy, listen to Yea Forums talk about strategy. Something they have no clue about.

>chain of command is by definition not strategy
lmao

Was that intentional? Is it a trick people use?

Wargame might be right for you then:
>10v10
>not enough room for 10 1v1s
>Support players covering several teammates with artillery, resupply and AA
>winning front might allocate new units to losing front to hold ground
>Gameplay focused on coordinated pushes into objective zones
fuck destruction
Now you just need to buy it, play a hundred games in noob only lobbies, and then maybe they'll let you join a match

>>Support players covering several teammates with artillery, resupply and AA
>>winning front might allocate new units to losing front to hold ground
>>Gameplay focused on coordinated pushes into objective zones
thats the type of thing I'm talking about, although I wonder why the game isn't more popular if that's the case

Wargame could be nice, if not for the overblown unit roster.

Compared to splitting your army, taking track of 5 different abilities on 5 diferent units that need to be individually selected, moving units singulary in formation, inject cycling your base, defend a drop and dodge the enemies 5 abilities and stutter step at the same time in engagements that take 5 seconds in starcraft 2.

Miss any of that and you have an unspeakable disadvantage. Forget microing your army for one second and you might have lost the game already.

Anyone?

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>every game is essentially a reskin of the previous one. And as with everything, you can only reskin shit for so long.
But that's every FIFA or CoD game

It's fast paced. t2 by five mins is a little fast, you are likely to get run over. Most 1v1s are over by 15 mins. its not slow like AoE

>I wonder why the game isn't more popular if that's the case
Pay to win DLCs, a billion units make learning matchups hard, meta decks destroy most experimentation, playerbase is elitist and will kick you from lobbies based on winrate / games played / deck used, cheesy strats galore, no updates anymore, some players migrated to the less popular SD:N44

The original C&C is 3D, believe it or not. Its presentation is 2D but the units themselves are 3D, and calculations are done in 3D space. They could have easily used models and the gameplay wouldn't have changed.

the units are sprites and there's nothing 3D about any of the game logic
it doesnt even have multi-level terrain, the cliffs are just walls

Because the frogfucks left it to die with no balance patches and pay to win garbage like the fucking kikes and Yugoslavia.

Microing line of sight is a fucking full time job in Steel Division/Wargame

They are sprites, hence
>presentation is 2D
but
>nothing 3D about any of the game logic
Incorrect. Calculations are done in 3D space.

AoE 2 has sprite based units AND multi-level terrain, so is it 3D?
I don't really get this 2D is better meme, it's not like platformers where a jump to 3d actually changes gameplay.

what are you talking about? Both 2d and 3d rts use 2d circular hitboxes for collision detection and path finding

I think the idea to market RTS games around team games has a lot of merits.

Games like e.g. Battlefield are also fun in teams, and not primarily geared towards the "1v1 me faggot" autists. Why should RTS?

>Calculations are done in 3D space
how does the third dimension play into C&C? You have aircraft on a seperate plane and thats it, even calling that "2.5d" is a stretch

It's almost as if people who play games that expect you to learn a set of systems to play at a high level competitively don't want to have to learn a totally new set of systems with every new release. Why do you think fighting games have barely changed in 20 years?

blizzard games use circles
most others back in the day just used a grid

Your idea is 12 years old and it was called World in Conflict.

Wargame 10vs10 in a nutshell
>player disconnected
>hey you push I arty spam
>my deck is called support because it's 80% planes
>GIB SUPPLIES NAO
>OMG THE ARE RUSHING ME FUCKING TEAM HELP
>player disconnected
>wtf how are you guys losing? look at my KDR in my fort
>[ROCKET ARTY SPAM INTENSIFIES]
>players disconnected
>fuck OP NATO FUCK STUPID TEAM
>life disconnected

actually this is average "team" RTS game in a nutshell

The most Tom Clancy RTS in existence

At least it was before we fucked everything up.
t. kushan, formerly hiigarans

What about the actual Tom clancy's RTS

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We don't talk about that one.

This is clearly fucking bullshit for anybody who was played/watched BW games at a high level. Rarely are games decided by who runs out of resources except super late game TvTs. They're decided by straight up build order counters, or who misjudges the balance between agression and economy and either can't sustain to late game, or who can't protect their economic advantage, or misreads your opponents play or get surprised by a hidden base, or gets simply outmacro'd and eventually run over, or outmicro'd or positioned in skirmishes, or is surprised by a tech switch that leaves them unbalanced and they can't recover from, or bluffed into believing there will be a tech switch while simply powering and therefore unbalancing the enemy. There are multiple arms races going on and you have to be on top of all of them.

The only thing that is missing is the two meta cat A deck players, one of which is complete garbage and other one is solo carrying his team.

>actually this is average "team" RTS game in a nutshell
And people shit on leaver penalties

That didn't stop FPSs and JRPGs. Also indie platformers and "craft" games.

i am still struggling with select all moving my army around and clicking fast enough to build stuff.

DOTA happened and everyone stopped making good RTS games to try and copy it.

Because it had story only in first few missions, it can't be TC MURRRICA kino.
You literally are betrayed by SECRET SUPER DUPER ALPHA CHARLIE CELL and have to save USA before everyone dies.

Do you use hotkeys?

In fact most RTS released from 2005ish onwards tried to innovate WAY too much instead of just making traditional, but good gameplay.
Why do people still play OG Starcraft and Age of Empires 2? Because those games were the peak of their respective "subgenres", and no other came close in the same grounds. They always tried something new like adding more and more RPG mechanics, making them larger scale, less focus on base-building, often with 0 technology, 5 units per race, stupid shit that made them boring as fuck to play compared to the almost infinite replayability of SC/AoE.
Devs didn't know what to do, publishers wanted to spread the audience by making shit more and more stupid.

Why not?
Played it back in the day. Voice commands werwe fun, but half of the time it could not register/recognise a voice command.
Interesting game. Did not really like rock/paper/scissors though.

yep. spend a lot of time setting them up. the game just takes lots and lots of practice.

Turn-based strategy is simply better

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>Why not?
It is shit.

Have you people played pic related?
It's F2P and I like it a lot but the playerbase is very minute.
Any alternatives?

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based MoM poster

>Tfw the world in conflict devs got lapped up by ubisoft and are now making shitty open world games instead

I had hope

>thats the type of thing I'm talking about, although I wonder why the game isn't more popular if that's the case
The game is extremely positional and slow. Well-fortified positions give massive advantage so most of the time is just the teams shelling each other and hoping the other team gets bored, attacks and gets massacred.

>Voice commands werwe fun
>Why click when you can sped 3 second trying to enunciate a very simple command as good as possible just to have it register wrong anyway so you now have to correct the mistake on top of giving the same order again?

Planetary Annihilation: Titans
Good for competitive 1v1s. Just learn the meta and you'll be ok
Top level replays are always available.

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Thanks bro, downloading right now.

I'd recommend Loria for anyone who likes Warcraft 2/3

more like
>most gamers are loners afraid of failure and have short dicks
>1vs1 scares he shit of them because it challenges their image in their own head, the BEST & SMARTEST GAYMUR
>stick to TBS against AI where they are masters of fate
I know because I am one of them

I mean, it was fun, not useful.

I tried really fucking hard to like this game but the globe map perspective makes me nauseous for some reason. I also hate that it doesn't have technology/reasearch at all.

>You will retreat in an orderly fashion, that's a direct order!

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I blame DotA and Starcraft 2 being a hot mess. That's where I stopped caring.

RTS genre never was about strategy. Most tactics were about APM, timings and paper scissor tactics. MOBAs offered higher level of macro game whilst minimazing or straight forwarding the microplay. Sure, it still exists but a team cant beat the other team based on micro alone, macro is the king which RTS should have had been about.

MOBAs today are more high level than RTS ever was.

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eeeh.

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>look at [blizzard RTS]
just lol
and there's no reason to invent new control schemes as long as you're not making massive changes to how the game functions, they just change wildly in the beginning of a genre because you're trying to find one that works. After you do find that one, then there's no need to change.

>globe map perspective makes me nauseous
At least you have a decent reason not to play it, unlike half the screeching muppets who complain RTS is dead and don't ever play anything current.

>I think the idea to market RTS games around team games has a lot of merits.
It didnt help World in Conflict much.

I'm convinced that people who like PA have never touched Supcom FA, I don't understand how you could enjoy basically the same thing but worse + gimmick.

Multiplayer games rock

You forgot
>half of the enemy team is pre-made
>randoms don't communicate at all
>no one in your team plays on flanks

Thats the elite, the creme de la creme of RTS players. You should be grateful you are allowed to play with them, as you are not worthy to polish their boots.

Same but with Human Revolution

Its mostly fear of engaging with an opponent that will mercilesly tear you a new asshole, humiliate you and you dont even get to learn wtf did just happen.
>good old Generals
>opponent rolls china
>i roll US
>custom map
>too many oil rigs, too many chem processing factories
>ok, spam paladins and comanchees
>10 min later
>he arrives with a fuckload of Overlords and gatling tanks
>chews the shit out of Paladins
>choppers cannot approach
>i can only spam paladins and crusaders to hold him back
>kinda works
>he brings in nuke arty
>try to take those out with choopers
>wall of gatling tanks
>ffs
>go to his base with choppers
>gatlings, gatlings everywhere
>shouldve had auroras
Custom maps, not even once.

SUPCOM doesn't run native on Linux.

People still play SupCom Forged Alliance Forever.

Maybe when there's a sale

It's sad, WiC was great and Ground Control 2 even more awesome. Too bad they abandoned GC2 with an awful balance patch.

Its extreme level of flexing at noobs. First of all you NEVER peek with awp while zoomed in. The dude on the other side of corner will see you like 1 second before you will see him. The moment he peaked with awp like that he was dead.

But the dude with AK felt the need to flex with style so he switched to sidearm, throw it, then switched back and still manage to kill the sniper.

Also any decent AWP player will NEVER camp on that position. Why? Because after first kill he has to hide in that shit corner. And after that the sniper is practically dead if the enemy team moved in pairs or bigger.

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I played Balanced Annihilation, also on the Spring engine, a few years ago. But Supreme Commander is still the gold standard of TA-likes.

Well, every RTS worth its salt will have replays on day 1.
Some people just can't clench their teeth and grow from experience of loss.

>Favorite Genre is RTS
>Never ever play it online unless it's with friends

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Because the gameplay is stagnant as hell and not particularly fun

Older RTS's were too much about base autism rather than the actual fighting. If you've been paying attention at all, you'll have noticed that RTS isn't actually dead, it just dropped the extraneous fort building autism that nobody but a few retards liked.

DOTA et al did away with the micro and left you with just one character to manage

DOW2 limited the building options and introduced heavy squad micro and tactics

wargame and a few others did away with building almost entirely and focused purely on the units, environment, and tactics

etc. etc. all the directions RTS has branched in, one thing has been universal: Everyone's ditching the stupid fucking base building. The ONLY type of game that actually embraced building as a core mechanic was tower defense games and those quickly turned into freemium phone crap.

Why do people do this?

>a warcraft 3-ified CoH
Name another Warcraft 3/ Company of heroes game then.

Because it's infinitely more fun to dick around with the AI than try to rush and win as fast as you can.

You're complete garbage. DoW2 did absolutely nothing wrong just like Hitler.

3d graphics and unit abilities killed RTS

Hope aoe4 is 2d

>it's infinitely more fun to dick around with the AI
How so?

CoH2 is really good though and the MP is still being played.

>what is AoE2

DoW 2 got fucked in the ass by incompetence

1. Reliance on games for windows live when that shit just plain didn't work for half the people who tried playing on it

2. Massive balance issues because relic's fucktards couldn't balance their way out of a wet paper bag

With their power combined, DoW2 was kill.

Personally it's because I'm just not good enough at them. I play supcom and I'm just recently getting decent at it, but I know I'd get dumpstered if I ever tried joining a FAF game because all of those guys have hundreds more hours than I do.

What DOTA ditched was macro and not micro.
Base building autists should just stick to games like Anno where you can't be zerg rushed 3 minutes in. DOW1 looked really fucking stupid with Space Marines dumping their entire battle barges on the battlescape just to build a base. Something what SM were designed to fucking avoid.

Interestingly I like both branches of what RTS has become: Dota for tactical combat without micro to get in the way, and Factorio and the likes for building without extensive tactical involvement, and I mostly dislike pure RTS games now.

Dude, they made that mode BECAUSE your average RTS MP match is stressful and difficult to play for the average normies.

You can do shit at your own pace, build neatly, create an army and decide it's time to attack instead of 100% stress all the time because the other person wants to win at all costs and has exactly the same tools as you do, so anyone using those tools best will have a snowballing advantage.

Worst one was way back when i just started playing WC3FT.
>roll humies because im a humie
>cant remember what enemy rolled
>quickly make a hero, two melee, four ranged
>got two towers build, just need to upgrade them
>enemy arrives with two champs and some mooks
>curbstomps my hero and 6 units
>proceeds to wreck the shit out of base
while having two heroes at half-health
>lose
It was then i discovered that map had merc camp and he just rushed that with his hero.
>clench teeth
>grow out of experience
Depends mate, depends. All i know is that matchmaking should be made by skill levels.
And practice - getting to know maps, units etc.

Fuck that got me

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Lots of friends of mine are the same and I don't get it. They only know how to turtle and win the attrition war against the AI and I don't get what's so fun about it. The worst levels in any campaign for me is the "hold out for X minutes" kind. What's so fun about defending endlessly?

>because I'm just not good enough at them
That's because you don't play multiplayer. Skill comes with practice.

>You can do shit at your own pace
That kills the whole point of strategy games.

City builders are a thing for a reason.

It's honestly really fucking hard. The mechanical element is such a barrier it's hardly surprising nobody but koreans want to play it. Luckily there's a cartoon DLC total conversion coming next month for SC:Remastered which might get a bit of interest

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Some people just want to relax, dude. Not every game needs to be competitive 100% of the time.

If you don't feel confident enough yet, you can play the "The pass" games. They don't effect your rating because they have air units restricted, and people usually are not mad at noobs for doing their thing.

Good idea is also to look at effective build orders of good players.

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>whats so fun about efending endlessly
Seeing enemy breaking upon your defences. They cannot breach them. they cannot do anything against your mighty defense. While you build an army and then selectively lop their territory to your liking and build even more defences, slowly strangling them. Or just watch enemy exhaust all of their resources and collapse into a heap like Soviet Union did.

go suck on a pacifier and watch tv

>Wargame red dragon: update queued
>0 bytes
Why do you play me like a damn fiddle steam?

lmao mad tryhard

>I want to play a strategy game but I don't actually want any strategy in it

Like the Brits in COH1/2

>but versus another player, that doesn't work at at all. If you defend, they just expand, and create enough economy to support an army so strong and reinforceable that you cannot defend from your shitty limited bases. This is why people don't want to play RTS online, it's fucking hard.

Kohan was an underrated game

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Ad hominem and strawman - the posts.

I lost all hope at this point, are any of the mods worth it? I heard that 1991 mod makes all nations far more competitive/playable, but I didn't have the time to actually try it.

Yeah I've been watching a lot of casts of matches in FAF to see what other people do, including a few on that map. I might give it a shot sometime.

It's the closest thing to TBS in RTS form

Because RTS games, like isometric RPGs, are a product of technical limitations. Simplified and restricted systems to depict larger than life events.

Now we have the technology to render entire armies and cities that look good, with full voice acting, so people don't want to settle for this kiddie bullshit of 100 units on screen "waging war" or not being able to check out your surroundings and how the people look, and having to read fucking novel worth of shitty exposition instead of hearing the characters speak.

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Starcraft is unplayable in multiplayer if you're not genuinely autistic. There are interesting elements in the game but they're dragged down by the incessant need to keep juggling a dozen mundane tasks throughout every match. Even in the highest level of competitive play this is a problem. In many high level matches you'll see absolute shit drops, for example. The best pro in the world might send his dropship next to the opponent's base, the opponent doesn't see it because he's too busy making SCVs in the other corner of the map, after floating there for 4 seconds doing nothing the dude finally has the dropship drop in his troops after taking a couple of unnecessary turret shots, the opponent finally reacts a couple of seconds too late, then the guy doing the drop takes his troops back after maybe losing a marine or whatever because he couldn't be assed microing and flies away. Meanwhile the commentators are doing their best to hype this up and make it sound like an amazing player but it just looks super sloppy, because it's only impressive if you keep reminding yourself that both players were doing all of this while juggling 20 other mundane tasks all over the map. But since only turbo autists get a hard on for very efficient farm building, the end result is that starleague drops look worse than what you'll see from F--- shitters on iccup because those guys will get hardcore tunnel vision and spend 5 minutes focusing on the world's most perfectly executed harassment before they lose due to shit macro.

It's like watching a basketball game where the players have to balance an egg on their head. At first it'd probably be cool and you'd have to be impressed that they're kinda sorta managing to play some sort of basketball with that big a handicap, but after a while it's just the world's shittiest, sloppiest game of basketball.

Its kinda like that. And then it goes beyond that. Scouting, attacking enemy scouts, building and proteting your own base extensions. Area denial. Mind games and game theory.
The whole point is not to focus too heavily on just one thing.

I remember that I was like that when I was 15 and absolutely sucked at RTS, its called coping with being bad.
Later I started to watch casts and replays, this gave me a realization how shitty and insecure about it I was.
Now I'm 30 and can't even play RTS because I'm too tired after work but fighting AI is just too boring.

>Simplified and restricted systems to depict larger than life events.

TBS is way better at that than RTS which I guess explains why TBS is still thriving

You know one criticism that people have of the souls games is that it's very easy for players to make the game boring by playing too defensively.
In a way RTSs are the same, It's very easy for players to play the low-risk high-reward high-boredom way. It's completely fine in SP but when they come to MP they get their asses kicked because they don't know how to be properly aggressive.

Yes but rendering entire armies and going the Total War route makes the games themselves boring as fuck, fight me

Fitting, I heard people say on several occasions that Starcraft plays like a twitchy simplistic flash game anyway..

because its hard and only can blame yourself if you lose

Total War isn't a fucking RTS

Patrician taste friend, why the hell would I want to play a game with someone I don't know.

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This.

Exactly.

You know at some point games become so easy they cross the line into being toys

>Easily created and shared SP content
extend this to MP as well.
Modding support should allow for both fun maps as well as TCs

And that's why multiple isometric RPGs came out in recent years.

I don't see it that way. I see the mechnical element as say, the phyiscal fitness element of football. If you removed all need for players to physically operate the ball, I'm sure you would probably have a more tactical and cohesive play. But it wouldn't be interesting to watch because there would be no element of application of strategy.

You need the mechanical element in some form, how much of your attention that demands is up to the game and your personal preference, which is why there are such vociferous sc1 vs. sc2 arguments. The fact that players are constantly juggling these tasks means that things can go wrong and ambitious players can sieze upon these mistakes creating upsets and making the game less predictable, and therefore more fun.

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Because on the long run they are more about dexterity and mindlessly executing a simple task than actual strategy.

Iron harvest looks nice, but too small scale for my taste.

multiplayer aka battles are

So then play another game. You wanna stay attached to one toy your entire life? That's what you get sent to a shrink for.

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?

multiple RTS games came out as well

Maybe RTS games should include a noob mode where resource management and unit creation are automated.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_tactics

Then you have no chance of winning.

Thus is something I see when people complain about Hydra busts in ZvP in sc1. If the protoss doesn't make enough cannons, he just dies to hydras. So why not just make more cannons always? because if you make too many cannons, you've lost due to that impact on your early economy, even if that fact won't be obvious until 10m later in the game. They're all balanced on an absolute knife edge.

The actual gameplay looks like a bad CoH clone.

>ctrl+f rise of nations
>0 results

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Isnt that how noobs want to play? Like Big Game Hunters.

>Game lasts from ancient age to future age
>Games are usually over around gunpowder age
Great game user very cool

Most noobs just want to build a base, amass a huge army and then a-move attack.
Preferably defeat the enemy for 99% and then contain the enemy for the upcoming hour.

exactly

You are clearly the only person here who played DoW2 because that is exactly how it went down.
This is also why RTS died. Every single company making RTS games would release buggy, poorly balanced, shit. So people kept going back to Starcraft and the genre stagnated.

>planeniggers
Just play as russia and have sex

I wish this game hadn't died, it was so fun in multiplayer.

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If you want to make a game noob friendly then turtling must become a viable strategy.

That'd be stupid because you'd just input your build and see if it worked or not, or else entirely focus on micro. The point of RTS is you need to learn to juggle all these elements together because that's what gives the game depth, layers of play on top of eachother. Wanting to cut 90% of that out while still maintaining to core led to MOBAs

Also, Starcraft 2's coop mode is the best thing that ever happened to RTS games.

It is a great game, rip Big Huge Games, reduced to mobile trash

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The point would be to get noobs playing and move on the the real mode if they can handle it.
Obviously skilled people would never play it because they'd find it boring.

it is, could have more variation between different missions though.

they don't work on phones/consoles

Best character bar none

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um try again sweetie

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It still hurts

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>But the general gentlememes told me it's a great game!!!!

You can literally boil down any genre like that.

I had to take a shot of vodka after posting that.

>Dawn of War 2 was bad.
lolno

It runs perfectly fine via wine, it even works with Steam's proton now if you can't be bothered to set it up.

*ahem*
FUCK GIACOMO AND FUCK MIANA

desu I thought the campaign and story were pretty shit, as amazing as the setting and factions were.

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This

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Most retarded post of the day.

Warlords Battlecry 3. Another forgotten gem. There is a free stand-alone mod called The Protectors that adds 1920x1080 support, balance changes, new units and missions.

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i always thought people who cycle thru their weapons at hyperspeed like that were fags

Oh fuck off you twat, you obviously didn't played Retribution because that is the time when you start seeing people begin to praise DoW2. It really improved the MP and gameplay but being a Relic product, it suffers from bad balancing. Elite mod fixed this.

huh? what's bad about lower IQ? are we imbecilophobic now?

No, there isn't a single TBS game that can compete with Supreme Commander yet.

>THE WAR DECLARATION
>HAS BEEN DELIVERED
>TO THE AMBASSADORS
>OF MIANA AND PIRATA!
>DOGE! DOGE! DOGE!
Fantasy mussolini did nothing wrong

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COMMANDER UNDER ATTACK

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What about the FAF client. It's no good to me if I can't get matches.

Campaign Doge was a gigachad.
>mfw getting rushed by level 5 doge with a shitton of walkers and he even drops the hammer while I barely just started out the map and even the 3 ultra juggernauts I brought as starting army can't do shit

The legacy client supported linux just fine, and you can rig the new one to work. You just need to set up a launch command that uses wine to run the game and symlink the default mod / map directory.

Do you even watch pro brood war? you couldnt be more fucking wrong my dude. Holy fuck this is why we dont have RTS games anymore because lazy crying intelligent babies that dont want to play a mans game.

Also Dawn of War Dark Crusade is the best game in the franchise forget Soulstorm, forget 2 and 3 they are rubbish.

Fuck off Caeltos

Full instructions:
>Grab JRE 10 from wherever
>Download the unix release of FAF client
>Run 'env INSTALL4J_JAVA_HOME= ./downlords-faf-client'
>Set up Supcom + proton on steam, launch it once
>Go to client settings, set "env WINEPREFIX=

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did you only play the n64 version

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I wish they would start playing Starcraft on Normal speed.

Or maybe have lower leagues on lower speeds, and higher leagues on higher speeds.

E-sports killed RTS genre.

My advice is this

1. Use the F2-F4 screenshot keys, this frees up your 1 to 0 keys for army control groups. Basically hit CTRL-F2 where you are looking and every time you hit F2 it will go to that spot where you were looking. I do this on my main production (gateways/barracks etc)
2. Do control groups like marines on 1 medics on 2 spell caster on 3 comsat stations on 4-5

The more organized you play brood war the easier it is to play

yeah, dude, you are only the third person ITT to spew this baseless assertion without offering any explanation what exactly was "killed" and how.

The reason for that is the rise of non-white subhuman populations in western nations you dingus.

NO MEMORIES

Because only autistic fucks actually give a shit about watching a bunch of gooks compete for apm yet for some retarded reason most of the major rts developers sought that E-sports money, and gutted themselves in the process.

E-sports didnt kill the genre, other games did. PUBG, FORNITE, DOTA (which dota is the only moba i will ever like) LOL etc...all these team games people want to play with their friends. These games all have lower skill ceiling compared to RTS games minus dota at high levels. Also you have to remember twitch pretty much owes its launch to Starcraft 2.

Also all you fucking babies crying about micro and e sports killed games guess what..you can play AI, you can play the story mode. FUCK sc2 has a coop mode that is so popular right now. Theres tons of good singleplayer RTS games with pause like they are billions, dungeon of the endless if you dont like PVP.

The big difference between 2D and 3D is how hard it is on the system to render tons of polygonal models over sprites, so a lot of RTS games had to cut down unit count and simply make every unit worth more. Look at games like Warcraft 3, Age of Empires 3, Dawn of War, Rise of Legends, CnC 3 etc. As units became a lot less expendable, a lot of games started feeling much slower.

Only Starcraft is really about gookclicking exclusively though. WC3 and AoE competitive matches have more breach for actually interesting novel strategies for instance.

Yeah because we all know Brood War has never had an interesting meta.....

Wish i can just play somethinh like kairosoft's ninja village. Town building and army attacks. It plays like rome total war.

No mechanical evolution since the transition to 3D.

Everyone got bored.

Because of Moba faggotry

What the fuck are you talking about?
Starting with CoH or MoW, what about RTS like Perimeter?
People got lazy and stupid is the only explanation.

3d is not the reason rts died, but it marks the era when many companies stopped making RTS games, as the 3d tech was relatively new.

The main reason RTS died is because people only played the popular games and didn't buy the new ones. The popularity in RTS also dropped, and PC gaming in general suffered from competition from xbox / ps3. The few RTS devs that remained moved away from base building and started making Mobas and other similar games instead.

Last one I played was Age of Empires III. I'm sure I played it quite a bit but for the life of me I can't remember anything about it, other than that you couldn't smurf online

Any of you gonna buy it? I think they did a pretty good job of keeping the old look. Maybe a tad too much saturation on some of the colors but it still looks good.
Do you think they will innovate/rework some mechanics? I'm pretty sure they will atleast tweak some stats.

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Majesty also experimented a bit. Not a true RTS but it was a fun hero management game

I just find it bizarre that Blizzard chose not to go with the cartoony look on the game that started the cartoony look meme.

3 reasons that go hand in hand: Devs failure to inovate, failure of making interesting world and making a competitive gook clicker.

I'll buy it for the remastered campaigns

>Most people just want to play against the CPU and basebuild for 20 minutes every game
>Devs would rather try to follow in Starcraft's footsteps and make a bland but balanced competitive game
Every memorable RTS in the past 20 years just did their own thing and were fun even if you only skirmished against the AI
Every forgettable turd was a wannabe Starcraft killer with bland competitive balanced gameplay

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>not attempting both
Stronghold Crusader is a nice competitive game and also fun vs AI.

Every good RTS had a campaign that wasn't just a tutorial to the multiplayer component as they gave you access to most, if not all, of the tech tree fairly early in the campaign.

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The surroundings and buildings still look pretty cartoony to me. As for the units they look a lot more realistic now (smaller heads, better proportions) but still true to the artwork.
I think they originally went for that look because of engine limitations and poly count. I'm pretty excited about the new world editor and what the modding vets will be able to achieve with it.

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It looks good, but I can't give a fuck about Warcraft 3 anymore ever since I realized how shitty the pop-cap is.

>x died because people stopped buying it
This is so fucking redundant and uninformative and I wish people would stop parroting it in every single rts thread
>hurr people die because they are killed
so fucking insightful

I play broodwar on EU and I feel bad when I rage at or defeat noobs

Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Sins of a Solar Empire, Starcraft, and Red Alert are basically the peak of RTS and there's no where left to go. It's a solved genre.

>No mechanical evolution since the transition to 3D.
Multiple theatres on different worlds in the same game not enough for ya? PA:T has it all you lot are missing out.

Because the only company that made them started being shit and had no idea what they were doing

^^^^

Forgot pic

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>Tfw played over 100 skirmish vs Ai in C&C generals in the last 2 months

>blademaster and paladin are the size of normal troops and can barely be distinguished from them
really fucking purges my stratholme

>boxing
>high skill ceiling
>just punch the guy as fast as you can

You don't think a warcraft 4 or starcraft 3 made by actual competent developers woulnt be insanely popular?

Boxing is low skill ceiling, has way more to do with athleticism, which is interesting in itself

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You must have left Planetary Annihilation: Titans off that list by accident.

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Without it, every unit is the same and there's no reason to do anything but spam the cheapest/most efficient unit.

>RPS mentality
More like arbitrary balance.
Example:
Cavalry archer are good against cavalry, not because they can kite but because they get a +5 damage bonus

>actual physical activity that requires instantaneous decision making on top of heavy strain on your body is low skill ceiling
wanna know how I know you've never crawled out of your basement for longer than a walk to the grocery store?

Nah, C&C Generals was fun. Competitivefags are what killed RTS.
Starcraft was a miracle and something like it will never happen again in our lifetimes.

The market was flooded in the early 2000s, it was kinda a fad back then. RTS games never really recovered

Why did blizzard decide in LotV that every unit needs some sort of skillshot, ability, or mechanic?
Was it because the game is way too optimized?

>Rise of nations
>Rise of Legends
>Red Alert
>C&C
>Tiberium sun
>Homeworld
>Sin of a Solar empire
>Supreme Commander
>Warcraft
>Age of Empires

I miss these days.

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laziest most uninspired fucking artstyle/art direction ever

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Shut up and never speak of those times again.

>Tfw you will never Vinchi spam clockwork unites ever again.

I'm not saying there's 0 skill in boxing, esp. in feather/welterweight, but how athletic you are is an enormous factor

>also dual map concept. Where you had two maps one above and one bellow ground making map exploration and control far more engaging.
>None of these features were even expanded upon by other games of the genre since.

wrong

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Fucking fantastic game. Most creative races, Vinci was 10/10
I remember you could play Vinci without ever creating miners, only doing upgrades to get robot miners for free and using those buildings to generate more resources.

I just bought it on my switch. Any tips? I'm really confused on what I'm supposes to be doing and optimal town layout and what to do with ninjas.

>play DoK
>expect fun
>AI is just one-note and rushes all the time, very little change in their tactics
>skirmish is not very fun as a result

RTS suffers from never improving on AI because "the players can just play multiplayer" well I have never played an RTS multiplayer ever and I don't intend do, I just wanna play against AI but when the AI does the same spammy tactics every match it gets repetitive and boring

and even when you do play multiplayer its probably the same thing anyways with some autist with perfect build order and rush tactics, which is also not fun at all

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also DoK suffers from clinging too much to traditional RTS experience and mission structure

I want someone to make an RTS that is more slow paced, maybe even open world, with a massive map to traverse, where emphasis on scouting and resource management is more important.

DoK could have been that game but sadly it wasn't, just stuck to the same old tired RTS mission formula

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Not sure if they did in real numbers.
Just a higher amount of gamers now, and relatively less of them are rts players.

I think this is one of the reasons why Dawn of War 2 was hated. The modded game is very fun multiplayer and the skill cap isn't bogged down with autistic micro so pretty much anyone can play it competently but the AI fucking sucks.
Most of the people who saw past the lack of base building and tried to enjoy it for what it is were probably turned off by the shitty comp stomps.

Lots of innovation in rts games, people generally don't care for it though.

Sc2 has innovated a lot of the controls that should make it easier to play for people who struggle with controlling stuff in rts games, with the hotkeys and easier pathing, stuff they've only kept doing as the game has been getting expansions and patches.
If you value the high micro skill of broodwar that is not a good innovation though.

Why did Mobas get so popular when the skill floor is also quite high?

i was turned off by the shitty limited maps, the same tired "capture the node" gameplay, and the abysmally low unit cap

look at this screenshot, I'm at 93/100 unit cap already, made every map feel so fucking small when battles had so few units on screen

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Dumb but kekd

Or how about coop where one builds and manages the economy and one fights

>If you've ever watched SC pro games, it always boils down to both teams don't have any resources left, and whoever gets luckiest with the macro with their remaining units wins.
Nope

Because current popular shooters sure are the pinnacle of innovation.

master of magic is a great game, but that doesn't make tbs better than rts.

>Caring about looks over gameplay
That's why you like Homeworld 2 you Fagyr

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Starcraft 2 has really good AI.

Ego could be part of it.
Everyone thinks they're smart with a great head for strategy.
Losing at strategy hurts that ego.
These people usually make up excuses like "my race is better", "I'm not even trying", "he just clicked faster"

waifus
It's the only thing keeping most anything alive.
Most are in denial, but they know it's true.