What games have the highest skill ceiling?

Gunz
SupCom
MoW

>get land flooded
>get land starved

Nah I don't think so

facts don't care about your feelings.

Absolutely Tetris.

youtu.be/Qz8GVpZgrCU

>His team has measured the computational complexity of the game for the first time by encoding it in a way that can be played by a computer or Turing machine. “This construction establishes that Magic: The Gathering is the most computationally complex real-world game known in the literature,” they say.
>known in the literature
>implying complex = highest skill ceiling
Retard.

Pokémon.

Starcraft and Dota, any other response is objectively wrong.

as points out this is bullshit. Surely this shit doesn't account for the complexity of real time games like dota or sc2.

Super Smash Bros: Melee

Guilty Gear AC+R.
Human players can't even use the universal parry reliably it's so far beyond the human range of skill and timing. AC is a game made for Aliens and even the nips can't tap into a fraction of its potential.

For FPS, Quake 1 and 3, Painkiller
For RTS, Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3

Not sure about fighting games but any other FPS or MOBA is low skill.

AIs can and have been taught to play SC, dota, chess and go at champion levels. The best MtG AIs play like retarded children.

How the fuck is dota being mentioned but not league?

>he can't make a deck that has so little land you can't get land flooded/starved
luckily for you, the new London Mulligan makes dealing with manascrew piss-easy. meanwhile i'll be playing Legacy and winning without relying on random.

Because League is dota for babies. Also it's boring as shit, matches get decided in the first couple minutes.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with MtG not having a non retarded client for the longest time...
No meme, I'm sure MtG with all its history and sets would be super complex, I just cant see anything turn based having higher skill cap than real time.

How many academic or big tech resources have been dedicated to mtg? Because the others have had enormous investment.

Reminder that "skill ceiling" is a fucking meme and David Sirlin is a hack fraud who ruined fighting games and couldn't take criticism from chess players about Chess 2.

I'd say the fight against the international jewish community, as Bobby soon learned.

Tetris

League is DotA for dummies
>the only blink dagger like item has 5 minutes of cd
>almost all heroes are templated
>not f2p friendly, you must grind for heroes, which in turn is sign of the dvs recognising the shittyness of their game and trying to squeeze playtime out of you by saying "w-well, THIS hero is gonna be good! (whenyougetfivebilliongoldtounlockit)"

Because Dota is the ASSFAGGOTS that one AI development team specifically chose. Also regardless whether the games are good or not, Dota is objectively has the higher skill ceiling that League. Which isn't saying much in the long run.

Chess is bloody difficult. When I was locked up in a mental hospital earlier this year, I tried playing chess with this guy who was really good. I never won against him of course, but I thought I was doing okay. But I was taking quite a while for each move, trying to really calculate my best options before moving. Then I was moved to a different hospital and I played some guys there, but they were used to playing much quicker. So I had to play a bit quicker, and unfortunately made some stupid mistakes. From what I gather, time does matter in real tournament games. So I guess it's just practice to get good at playing under time pressure, and learning over time which moves are good in which situations.

It's too damn difficult for me.

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I guess technically chess on a computer.

at least post something actually complex if you want to shitpost
soniccenter.org/sm/mtg/megacombo.html
>what is the highest damage you can deal in a single turn without using infinite loops
spoiler: the number is so big they had to find a new notation system twice to fit the number in an adequate amount of space

>That pleb speed
At least post a real video.
youtube.com/watch?v=tPDYNuldc-4

Brood war
Melee
DotA

>tfw got carpal tunnel from playing GunZ for 10 hours a day for 3 years in a row

Pokemon Red/Blue Mystery Dungeon

Getting through Wish Cave and Purity Forest is a nightmare

>tfw got carpal tunnel from playing
no. you got carpal tunnel from bad posture

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Chess is in fact not the best complete information game, nor the one with the highest skill ceiling. Both these titles are held by go. Than you for your attention.

shooters, it's a combination of reaction time and positioning, you also need spacial awareness

large scale shooters have a pretty much infinite skill ceiling

i can see that happen

it was the only game ever to hurt my hands

>What games have the highest skill ceiling?
games that are never played. Quake / broodwar

GunZ was filled with hackers and laggers.

That's straight Tetris, no T-Spins. Lower skill ceiling.

youtu.be/1ksIkvWi3r8
this is fast.

Real nigga right here

With enough experience, your brain starts to be able to process potential moves a lot faster. Chess pros go through similar thought processes to beginners, they just do it so fast it's almost on a subconscious level

Rocket League
UNIST

Based

No one is putting resources in teaching an AI MtG. That is the difference.

Complex =/= Skill or Require Intelligence

I can add a thousand stupid rules to a game to make it "more complex", but that doesn't mean the game requires any kind of critical thinking.

Smashie brothers: Melee

Why would carpal tunnel have anything to do with posture? It's in your wrists.

F-Zero GX. Go watch a TAS run, no human can even come close to them so there is nearly unlimited room for player ability to potentially advance.

good posture => good wrist posture => no carpal tunnel

positioning your wrists poorly results in more strain, more likely to lead to ct

>Lower skill ceiling.
Literally one of the best player in the world. HBM would still be faster T-spin'ing than those shitters. Look at how fucking long they take to lock a damn piece... and it's not even like they only do T-spin triple.

>straight Tetris, no T-Spins
but there are t-spins in normal, non-TGM tetris
hell, even the NES version had them

Unironically pre-2018 pubg when there weren't as many hackers.
The amount of variability involved is mindbogglingly.

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Have you tried playing a Fury Warrior in WotLK?

This. When you can't even make use of basic game mechanics you haven't reached the game's skill floor. Goobie is one of the few games where the skill floor hasn't even been reached, let alone the skill ceiling.

Lower skill ceiling because there is no direct opponent sending garbage. T-spins, PC's and combo's make the game more advanced and less so about simple speed. New Tetris is just superior.

A game that is entirely balanced around RNG has no competitive merit.

Sure you can spin, but there's no advantage to building T spins. It's not rewarding.

>dealing with straight garbage is hard
Try with items: youtube.com/watch?v=cOuVwTajUmc
Garbage are already auto generated when playing solo and that's piss easy to deal with anyway for players being able to clear Shirase.

bazed

Anime dating games

>having a pretty good run
>wifi connects to something
>page reloads

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youtu.be/Uqr69JJFa88

Literally impossible for a human being to achieve

to be the devils' avocado for a second:
in shirase mode, garbage is generated by copying the lowest row. in that user's VS footage, the garbage rows
>appear in multiples at a time, not related to your piece drops
>appear in random patterns
but
>always have only 1 unfilled block, never more than that
so while it is easier to deal with in some ways, it is also harder to deal with in other ways.

You're quoting me on something I didn't say, but alright. Try comparing 4w garbage with Tetris garbage and see which one is easier to deal with.

Unironically Overwatch

>inb4 seething incels

>point and shooty
>no speed
>high skill ceiling
>>inb4 seething incels

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cringe

l m a o

F

Seriously, I get that you shouldn't blame the game for your losses and Sirlin has a few nuggets of wisdom but thanks to him it's pretty much impossible to have a balance discussion about any fighting game without being swarmed by wannabe competitive fags telling you to git gud, even though the game has fucking patches anyway. He basically just taught people to be satisfied eating their own shit. God forbid there's something cancerously annoying about a certain character/strategy that isn't technically effective at the top 0.01% of tournament players; have fun being stuck dealing with it forever because git gud.

tekken

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How do card games ensure a good balance? Its not like they can patch it. What do they do?

Yeah that's the thing, it just takes tons of practice. A significant time investment.

Power creep or ban cards or limit amount of cards

RTS

You're wrong. The hacking kills the game's complexity, but there is a method to solving it. What was so great about it before 2018 was the fact that it was a realtime stealth game. You could literally hide in grass and people would walk right past you.

It was literally the level in cod4 where you hid in grass and the soldiers walked right next to you.

You don't know what you missed bro

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formats that rotate out older cards so the designers can try and tailor the meta with strategic reprints alongside the new cards. The eternal formats that don't rotate out cards become ridiculous combo dragraces.

Either infinite power creep like Yugioh, Or cycling of meta like magic.

some do rotations and "restricted lists" but at the end of the day there is no way to actually balance anything (unless you're KeyForge) so they don't. though mmost try to aim at that sweet spot of having enough balance to not have unfun, broken matchups, but enough imbalance that all matches are fun and not dumbed down to ensure a balanced game.

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Whether you get an endgame gun or literally nothing but a pan is entirely up to RNG. There is no competitive merit, the game mode is entirely about randomized spawns. It is the entire point of the mode. It's a casual game for people to unwind after work and not have to care about whether they do well or not because it doesn't matter, a bad player can get a kill by just finding a weapon first.

This shows how much of a brainlet you are.

The choice of whether you want to take a chance or play it safe is yours. If you land in a spot with good weapons you are more likely to die, if you land far away from everyone you're a lot less likely to die, but get shittier weapons. Its a process of critical thinking decision making.
The very first time I ever played the game I got 7th place purely out of common sense.

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Someone like yourself should not call anyone else a brainlet.

There is a reason pubg as an esport completely shit the bed almost instantly. There is a reason competitive games do balancing and doesn't just let the random factor rule the game completely.

Play a real fps game.

>How do card games ensure a good balance?
haha

>RNG is governed by how many people land in a particular spot
what a brainlet thing to say

shut up zoomie

Racing games

>If you land in a spot with good weapons you are more likely to die, if you land far away from everyone you're a lot less likely to die, but get shittier weapons.
There is no knowing if there is going to be good weapons there or not. Lots of people land school, sometimes there ends up being nothing but a couple of handguns there.

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why is it that the top players in any BR game do not have ~99% winrates? why is it they can join a public game full of shitters and still only win about 3/4 games?

in any game with an actual high skill ceiling, the best players in the world are unbeatable to anyone but their closest, top 5 competitors.

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Game is simply unbalanced, at least compared to the autism you see in vidya where a 51% win rate is considered unbalanced. The creators try to mitigate it by overpowering the previously under-powered composition/strategy with each new extension.

i just dont have the talent for this. Kids that play this just have some sort of depth feeling and sense of timing i just can't get around. You either have it or you don't.

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It didn't work as an Esport because its a 100 man free for all. For retarded games like soccer you literally just have to look in one direction.

a brainlet like you doesn't understand probability

im not a zoomie

It doesn't matter. you're more likely to get more things you need. there's an obvious benefit to going to large buildings.

People cheat in BR. After 2017 cheating became insane in PUBG. Everyone hacks, so even the top players hack.

>im not a zoomie
>fortnite gamer
Shut up zoomie

Soccer isn't a game about random spawns.

>a brainlet like you doesn't understand probability
i shall repeat myself because apparently you can't read

You imply that in the videogame PlayerUnknown's Battle Grounds(henceforth referred to as PUBG), the randomisation algorithm for item spawns is relative to how many people drop near the item. That is incorrect, as randomisation algorithms in PUBG do not care for players or their whims. Ergo, with your statement you have shown your stupidity and inability to grasp simple concepts.

Play a real competitive game, you're like those people who think they're professional competitive mario party gamers. It's pathetic.

Tinder, as a male

>in PUBG
and in other games in the genre? not all games are chinese cheatware, some have good anticheat systems. but still, the toppest of the top can not get consistent win rates in any game that isn't Tetris 99, and in that game the random is actually consistent and predictable, unlike normal Battle Royale/Hunger Games/One vs 100 random survival games

im not talking about fortnite

yeah its stupid and boring

I did not imply that at all. More people land in spots where there're a higher chance to get good weapons. I never said that people landing in a spot causes better weapons to spawn retard.

This shit is even more braindead than hearthstone.

>How do card games ensure a good balance?
They don't. Why bother, when it's more profitable to make each new set stronger than the last?

>im not talking about fortnite
>pubg
Literally the same game in a different skin. No way you are over 18.

ZOOM ZOOM

>More people land in spots where there're a higher chance to get good weapons
that still does not guarantee that a good weapon will spawn there and not on the outskirts. thus, it is stupid to imply that you have a fighting chance that is in your control when the chance is out of your control, the entire game is out of your control, and out of the other players' control, too.

tetris is bad example because pvp has close to no player interaction (even that meme 99 mode)

and battle royales have no player interaction either. just randomly get good gun and ammo for it, hide in bush, and ta-da! yo're winrar!

Your pathetic MORAN

In most shooters people use aimbot and walls to win.There are ways to tell when someone is cheating.

the winrates in tetris are probably high because its such a simple game.

and he's one of the best players of a game that requires brain power
really makes you think

>most
but not all of them
at the same time, in all of the Battle Royale games (that aren't Tetris, and i've already said why) nobody can achieve consistency.

>tetris is a simple game
if it's so simple show me your GM rank in tgm2

Star Craft 1

Doesn't matter at all. you're more likely to get something good because there's more chances of you to get something good that's how probability works.

>highest skill ceiling
>literally an RNG fest of hoping to draw the cards you need
lol

I don't play tetris because rotating squares into an empty space is FUCKING BORING

>124 replies
>no dwarf fort mention

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>there's more chances to get anything when everybody is taking everything in the near vicinity
this is exactly the opposite of how probability works
is the game too complex for your simple mind?

Age of Empires 2, plebs can't even lure the boar with scout and chase the deers to the tc.
>Starcraft babies think their game is complex
Clickity click gooks

any game that isn't vs another human cannot have the highest skill ceiling

>unironic aoe baby
lmao nice apm

Honestly, the best way to get good at chess is to just play games over and over. The reason people seem good is they’ve already seen the bullshit you’re trying. They don’t have to think about what you’re doing because they know, and they also know what works well against what you’re doing.

It helps to play online too, because you get skills all over the place, and you can work your way up to the tougher opponents. Don’t do speed chess, though. You won’t learn anything if you’re not thinking about your moves

You don't even know how the game works. People kill each other. You can take their stuff after they're dead. Rarely does anyone run away or even get the chance to run away.

and how is making an L and S shape as flat as possible complex?

Because it isn't hard, you just have to have autism to get into the UI.

Quake 3 obviously.

mods close thread pls

what is
>a truckload Tutor(search for a card) cards
>an assload of semi-tutor(search for a card of a special type) cards
>a load of Wish(get a card form outside the game) cards
>the mountains of manafix(card effectss that give you mana but aren't lands), ramp(card effectss that give you lands) and deckfix(card effects that let you Scry(look at top N cards in deck, then put any at the bottom of your deck) or do similar shit) card effects
lol'ing at your deckbuilding skills

i was just saying in fartnite your actions (like camping) make big impact on the enemy, in tetris pvp the player who's the fastest wins because there's no counterplay to fast play; might as well compare sprint times

>You can take their stuff after they're dead
you can't kill them when thy have better gear. that's how the game works. and when you drop in the middle of a dozen of other players, you have no choice but to fight and die, as you said yourself

it is complex because apparently you don't get it. git gud

Put an Starcraft pro on AoE 2 and their macro would crumble as they have no idea how to balance more than two resources

put an AoE pro into broodwar and their macro would crumble as they're too slow in getting anything resembling an army and any simple 4pool decimates them

>you can't kill them when they have better gear
This is why you don't have a girlfriend. You're such a brainlet you can't even imagine different things once you believe they're impossible.

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Saw a documentary where they interviewed a chess grand wizard and he said he doesn't even think about strategy. It's all about pattern recognition instead. You see a similar set-up of pieces a million times you instantly know how to respond to it. Such as king being in the top left corner, an empty space to his right, then a rook. Move your queen to the space, rook takes it, trapping the king, then you can use your horse to checkmate the king. Happens a lot tbqhwy.

ZOOMIE ZOOM ZOOM

Dota is a gimped RTS, how the fuck is it the most skillful?

but if i can kill them with "better gear", then the gear is not "better", thus there is no use getting it, thus the entirety of RNG debacle would be useless.
but at the same time, pro's still can't get consistent win rates, so better gear(that you get randomly) must be better, right?

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Fuck off goober

>kill them with "better gear"
correction: when THEY have better gear.

you're extremely bad at logic

no wonder you just play tetris all day

Poker

>you're extremely bad at logic
yet you can't refute it with logic of your own, and instead just resort to ad-hominem. any logic that is not refuted is true by lack of falsehood.
maybe you should play tetris so you'd get a strong enough brain to comprehend logic as basic as what i'm giving you

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Mario Maker

I'm making ad-hominems because you're making unintentional strawmen because you're fucking retarded.

>professional fortnite gamer

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but you're still unable to refute it.

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>chess grand wizard
kek

It's GO (Baduk) it is so incredibly simple yet impossible to master.

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Don't forget that because of this unlock champions format in League, it's hard to balance the game. You cannot have champions that exist as hard counters to others because "I don't have that guy unlocked" isn't a valid reason to lose a game at draft for a f2p game. As a result there is a greater amount of homogeneity to LoL champions while dota has way more complex characters like Meepo, Lone Druid, and Invoker.

Sylas is the dumbest shit Riot put out, and shows their client is inferior to DotA's as there is LITERALLY no counter play to his spellsteal where there is when you play against Rubick.

it's still dependent on RNG which disqualifies it instantly.

>but if i can kill them with "better gear", then the gear is not "better",

THis is the most retarded logic I have ever seen

kill yourself my man

>+5 strength item is not better than +1 strength item unless it is impossible for a player with the latter to kill the player with the former

i corrected myself, see i meant to say "if you (consistently) kill them while they have "better gear", then the gear is not "better"" and that is not incorrect.
again, why would i need +5 strength item if it's as good at killing people as a +0 item? and if a +0 item is not as good as a +5 item, but a +5 is rarer, then the game is dependant on RNG, which is what i've been trying to argue.

Rocket League

Even even "correcting" yourself twice, you are still fucking wrong.
A +5 strength item is OBJECTIVELY better than a +1 strength item. Still if you gave that to my 4 year old niece, I would still be able to consistently kill her even if I only had to +1 item. Its still a better item.

You are seriously mentally retarded. You revise your opinion in every post and still you manage to be utterly wrong every time.

>OBJECTIVELY better than a +1 strength item
bigger numbers dont mean shit when a player can kill another player of equal skill (which is what i've been arguing about) just as easy with an 'objectively' worse item. and that's my entire point: the bullshit that i just wrote is incorrect, thus the bullshit he said (about the game not being RNG dependant) is also incorrect, because his bullshit and my bullshit stem from each other.
still not seeing any "pro" battle royale players with consistent win rates

kirby star allies

As you get older my little zoomlet friendly, you'll learn an appreciation for "rng"

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arent you supposed to use a villager

riot realized nobody cares about complex mechanics or drafting. they just want a top down street fighter where you can spam one hero, mash all your spells and one shot the enemy.

Nah not really, I'm champion at RL with 1k hours played and I think that what's difficult about it is that you don't have any clue about how to play it. If someone watches a couple of hours of YT videos he could be a diamond in a couple of weeks.

Wolfenstein and its addon multiplayer counterpart were very high skill, almost as high as Quake 3

youtube.com/watch?v=fVDkDj-uXLI

warcraft III frozen throne. at the same time the most fun game.

Quake 3
All other answers are wrong

Chess WAS the greatest game until all the openings got solved and a literal who can go toe to toe with a grandmaster prodigy for the first bunch of turns if he just learns and follows very basic opening theory. Also why pic related hated the game and quit.

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>What games have the highest skill ceiling?
The ones that take the longest for self learning AI to master I suppose
so fighting games at the bottom (right below fps), dota/dota-clones in the middle, and RTS games that focus on strategy over gook clicking at the top

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>thats why bobby quit
or maybe because he got tortured in prison and went senile?

Yu-Gi-Oh Zushin stall

Mordhau seems like it has a pretty high ceiling. Unfortunately I don't have time to play it a lot and got tired of getting my doo doo packed when I do.

Mahjong nya!

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Assassin's Creed

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Literally the only intelligent post ITT

>NOOOOOO I SPENT YEARS PERFECTING MY CHESS STRATEGIES WHY ARE THE NORMIES ABLE TO CHALLENGE ME!? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

That feeling when you're in the zone and your tracking is flawless in this game is simply unparalleled. No other game can make you feel like that.

I'd imagine it's the same as how surgeons feel after a succesfull 12 hour surgery with very low chances.

>You won’t learn anything if you’re not thinking about your moves

Disagree.There's huge value to the subconscious ease of tactics you develop grinding bullet.

When play gets sharp on standard time controls, having experience choosing okay or great moves within 1-3 seconds without blundering means I can burn your clock till you're in time trouble. At that point, I'll beat you by experience.

I'm pretty sure chess has a higher skill ceiling than Go.

>ctrl+f DCS
>no hits

And that's how you know, because not a single one of you is even good enough to make an attempt at it to even know it exists.

>Losing precious villager seconds to lure boar in early game

what if you played this game but instead of those white /black pebble things you use skittles, that would probably take WAY more skill

You will not get much reply because you speak the truth and this whole website is full of hacks but of course GO has the highest skill celling.

Brain Age is the apple of forbidden power, dont listen to the media

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1. Brood war
2. WC3

No one on the planet knows all of the theory behind every opening. Just play oddball openings and it will quickly dissolve into both of you playing your own moves instead of playing book moves.

FischerRandom chess kills the autistic book memorization school of chess. In fact FischerRandom is the ultimate proving ground for chess players as it's 100% your own moves, so you can see very quickly who has actual brains and can come up with high-level strategic ideas, and who flounders because they don't have 50 moves of prep memorized in the Taimanov Sicilian Defence.

Video very much related. Grandmaster Nakamura absolutely crushes people in blindfold FischerRandom without even being able to see the starting configuration of the pieces, he deduces it purely from his opponents moves.
youtube.com/watch?v=kkBmMvsNjDI

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I'd love to play these types of games but my IQ is too low.

Y'all big brain people enjoy these.

>cunt-f
>no mahjong

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>mental hospital
what happened user, your parents were annoyed by you, lmao.

Remember guys: complexity isn't the same as depth.

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Go is quite a bit harder to learn than Chess IMO.

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>"aha! me see you have played B3 into B7, the Chess strategy books that I've autistically memorized tell me that is a bad play and I just have to play this documented counter-move named after a certain Chess legend, I'll win in 10 turns"

checkmate, me am so big brain chess player :>

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