What makes a good srpg?

this

Name 10 games with all these requirements.

next time, when it's on sale....

Okay... What kind of skills would you reccomend?
Buffs, debuffs, healing?
Swimming, flying, transporting other units?
Mind control? Summoning?
Having certain attacks affect certain classes more?

are you making an SRPG?

Yes.

Your post proves anime is much more a 90s thing than an 80s thing
I salute:
This move of yours
AND if you don't whip around and say "FUCK YOU" like some 80s loving MJacko
You as well.

well then that completely depends on what elements make up your combat system.
For example, if your game doesn't recognize terrain types in the map grid, then obviously it can't support skills that allow character to traverse certain terrain types quickly or even use such elements as part of an attack or support skill (such as pulling an ally character from anywhere on the map to a water space adjacent to you)

I'd actually like Fire Emblem if it didn't have so much RNG for a "tactics" game

and my answer isn't a cop-out BTW
your combat system is the foundation that will define almost everything else, gameplay-wise in your game.
establish the elements and gameplay of your combat system first, and you can see how easy it is to just list down possible skills you can put into the game and then design classes or characters around those skills

I love JRPGs and I love turn based tactics, I have yet to play an SRPG I consider as good as those 2 separate categories. They usually lean to heavily on the RPG part, making the positioning of your units inconsequential, or at least pretty braindead compared to how you've distributed XP among your units.

the basis for the battle system's design is shining force.
so terrain types are already in mind...

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also I'd like to talk about your mention of flying
flying only makes sense if normal on-foot movement is blocked by units in your path. Some SRPGs allow you to move through units normally.
you can also make phasing movement skills, for ghost-type or other units that might move the same way. which should work differently from flying
like maybe if a flying unit moves by using a flying move, it gets a debuff where it's receives extra damage from lightning element attacks and arrow-based weapons

I'm convinced that "made by Alicesoft" is the only good answer I have to this question since I have yet to play any other SRPG that ties gameplay bonuses to character events in the same manner and has tons of hidden stuff and difficult to fulfill requirements and scripted campaign events that really force you to plan carefully about how you're going to handle battles from turn to turn

I guess I could say that I find SRPGs (and really, strategy games in general) most interesting when battles themselves aren't the main focus and you spend much more of your time making decisions in regards to characters, special events, resources, and so on

Shining force 2 skipped point 2 and there's no post story content.
But you have to remember that SF2 came out when there were very few good SRPGs, so it got a pass. it's also very clearly a product of love, which helps a lot

flying also makes sense if certain terrain slows on-foot units down
or certain obstacles like electric fences or an area of water.

that phasing through idea sounds interesting though.
So you would reccomend evenicle?

well I'm willing to accept that since some stories end with the MC retired or dead

CENTAUR BEST WAIFU

>if certain terrain slows on-foot units down
floating is different from flying
you can have shoes or classes that have floating movement type

it's funny that SF2 is talked about often recently.
I wonder why takenouchi stopped making music for games, he's really fucking good.

Fire Emblem is the worst kind of strategy. It always just devolves into the game throwing you a curve ball you can't deal with without knowing about it in advance.

I love how straight forward Vandal Hearts was.

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also you can have like a mage class that can cast a levitation spell that gives himself or another unit temporary floating movement
floating still gets blocked by other units in their path

I prefer a strong selection of varied classes or characters. Classes usually work better though. I think the only SRPG I played without classes that was good was Stella Glow, and that just tickled me in all the right places.

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>Must have
>Clearly distinct classes that also offer flexibility.
Two similar classes can fill the same general role, but there needs to be a real reason to feel like one is better here versus there.
However, at the same time, a character that only does one thing is dumb
A good game for this is like, Disgaea. Take the Warrior and Valkyrie. Basically the same class, just gender-swapped versions. Their different skills and abilities though make it clear that the Warrior is designed for line-holding and getting stuck in, while the Valkyrie is more of a fire-fighter and guerrilla fighter. Both have the same general stat spread, it's just their preferred application is different
>Complicated, tactically engaging maps
This isn't just having arbitrary squares that give +2 defense but -1 move, or some shit. We're talking an actual location, with shit, and dynamic terrain.
I'd say X-Com is the closest to getting this right that I've played, but even X-Com kinda doesn't do it enough.

>Some kind of resource management or consumption, or limitation to prevent overlevelled one-man-armies from roflstomping
Kinda self explanatory. The three best ones I've seen are Vanguard Bandits, Phantom Brave, and, not implemented well enough, but Devil Survivor.
Vanguard Bandits had a meter that filled as a character took actions, including defensive ones. A character that went out and got surrounded was utterly fucked if it overheated without backup.
Devil Survivor did a similar one. Being attacked added to the delay until a character's next turn. A character that got attacked too much might never get to go. This was mitigated by the character always being able to counter attack when attacked, but still.
Phantom Brave instated a hard turn limit on every character, no matter how strong they were. So, even though you might have a crazy strong dude, he could still only take his 3 or 4 turns

>Ways to help characters catch up or stay relevant
Rather than a good example, I have a terrible one. I think it was called Langrisser? If a character fell more than like, 4 or 5 levels behind, it was literally impossible for them to ever catch up again, since they could never kill anything, and would die in one hit. There were no training maps, or exp bank, or like, exp for healing or other support jobs. Just for kills, I think, which they stopped being able to get at all.
Should have
>Either full-party deployments, or else don't force a "lord" on the player
Literally nobody likes being forced to use some schmuck unless all of the schmucks are being used anyways.
If you go with the small cast thing, make sure everyone can reclass or something.

>Repeatable maps
It's fine if you want to cut exp gain from 'em to remove grinding, but just something to do, maybe test out a new weapon or skill or what have you. If it doesn't have XP gain, though, it should also not count item usage, if you have that.

>Multi-Stage/Front maps
Not applicable for a small party game. Maybe not every map, but fairly often there needs to be a map that takes place on more than one map, or at the very least, have a thing where for the next 3 maps, someone you use on map A can't be used on B or C. Something to test the reserves of your team, and reward you for having a B-team, rather than the 8 guys you use every map.

>Just for me
>Monster units
I dunno. I always like using monsters, I know other people also really like using monsters. You don't need a ton, just a few.
War dog here, gryphon there, maybe a dragon or a skeleton.

I like when all choices of unit and weapon can work in a way or another.

Seriously why are SRPG like this

thanks for this but I don't fully understand the "complicated, tactically engaging maps" point.
What are you exactly looking for in that?

Shit's going on beyond moving chess pieces. Objectives and just things that require more though. Like I already posted Vandal Hearts above and that had a lot of stages where you have to do certain things or avoid certain other things. One earlyish stage for example has you trying not to massacre possessed townsfolk by moving around the map, taking out enemies and using boxes to block the paths of the peasents.
Another stage had you moving up a train as cars decoupled and other fun things.

That's my take away anyways. I really like Vandal Hearts. Objective maps are a hoot.

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I just want Heroes of Might and Magic 3 with bigger battlefields and the ability to take more stacks so there is more strategy and positioning involved

Ah, I get it. Valkyria Chronicles has some similar objectives

>I never played anything, not even the game I defend
it shows.

>SRPG

Of all I played I think FE is the most fun.
Theres relationships so you get a reason to actually team up characters in battle.

>I only played Fire Emblem

>I like to project like a retard

There's relationships so you're forced to team up characters in battle.

he's right though. FE is entry level generic shit, even in the 90's it was dreadfully empty

It's just so bloody dry. None of the characters or relationships have personality.

FE should be the better one really, more complicated battle system, better unit variety, and a relationship batte system, but for some reason I can't bring myself to play it over shining force 2 or CD
it's really dry, true. But you can't say it's empty, it's never been empty

>All japanese srpgs are autismal grindfests with no strategy involved.
The one genre in which the west dab on the nip.

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It's not complicated. It's frustrating. So much of it is based on things outside of the players control. There's no actual strategy to having the RNG basically screw over all my character growths

>Muh western games
>Lol dab
Geeeeeeeeeeseu.

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yeah. That sucks

A few omore odds and ends

Make support and status strong, and don't make all the bosses immune to everything

Include lateral utility support moves and "gimmicks"
Nobody remembers or cares about "+20% to party member's attack", even if that's a very good ability. Everyone remembers and loves a ninja or something being able to make itself untargetable until it attacks someone, and being able to run around and do sneaky shit, even if the applications are limited
Give people creative and unique support and utility moves. Y'know, the sort of things you can use tactically, not just make numbers bigger

If your game has generic units, give some fun, possibly pointless ways to customize and characterize them. It doesn't have to have a full mechanical effect, nor does it have to be fully fleshed out. Just be able to have a thing that says, I dunno, character X is in a relationship with character Y. Give us a thousand characters to write a brief bio and summary. I dunno, facilitate imagination

Objectives are a big part of it, beyond "kill those dudes" or "go there" but, think along the lines of the map not being an arbitrary plane of existence
Xcom has things like line of sight and pathing being directly influenced by topography and physical characteristics of the terrain, not just "this is a forest square"
It could do more, maybe make classes able to interact with more specific terrain features differently, but compared to say, Disgaea or Fire Emblem, you FEEL the terrain on an X-Com map. You see a shipping container or some shit, and you immediately are almost overwhelmed by the tactical possibilities it provides. It's not just a meaningless patch of green to park your guys on, it's potentially defensible high ground, it's also potentially a death sentance to the guy up there who draws fire. It can be used more conservatively by going inside, it could be used as a trap for enemies, but then it is also obstructing your view

>western srpg
>wow, I have maxed my char I can hit at 15% accuracy now
>strategy related, ever

>Instantly assumes grinding characters to max is relevant.
With superior strategy you can succeed even with low level troops.

>your game has generic units, give some fun, possibly pointless ways to customize and characterize them.

I'd actually like to see more of this, even if it's something as simple as color pallets. I was playing FFT somewhat recently and I actually got really tired of all the generics being the same freaking blond pillocks.

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I know I'm grabbing at the low hanging fruit by using an example of an early game stage, but like...come the fuck on. As someone that likes some of the older titles in the franchise, its absolutely ludicrous the amount of people that try to make FE more complex than it actually is.

It's core mechanic is glorified rock, paper, scissors

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>RNG basically screw over all my character growths
0% growth runs are possible
most of them rely on using units with high base stats like pre-promotes to kill shit
the real cancer is crits

That map on Lunatic mode is harder and more unforgiving than most SRPGs toughest challenges. Like even if you beat all of the Shining Force games, Sheperds in FE13 will kick your ass.

In fairness I actually do rather like the visual design of the early FE games. They have a very nice and coherent theme in regards to things like fashion. But that just makes me all the sadder they're so naratively lacking.

The 3DS games are a visual shit show though.

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Literally just use Frederick/Chrom

what's so bad about this map ?

I agree SR and KR are some of the best SRPGs around but
> much more of your time making decisions in regards to characters, special events, resources, and so on
isn't too true of SR; optimal play is determined more by having X by Turn Y than by making the correct decisions, which involves a fair amount of savescumming and RNG. Ironman runs are usually where decision-making is more important. In addition there aren't that many mutually exclusive decisions in the first-place. This optimal play is still fun like all of SR but it's a different skill-set than what you're describing.

KR on the other hand does decision-making really well, since it's literally impossible to have everyone and everything in one run, and that there's multiple mutually exclusive ways to accomplish a single objective.

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Because, like most maps in Awakening, its just a big open stage where the enemy bum rushes and you don't have much in the way of defending against it that early on given how genuinely awful some of the early game units you get are.

That being said, you just horde all your units to the bottom left and just use Frederick/Chrom to tank everything. So its only really hard because of how adverse most players are to using Frederick

>what's so bad about this map ?

Nothing, just in Lunatic mode most of the enemies can defeat most of your characters except Frederick in 1-2 hits. All the enemies on the players side of the bridge approach from the start. So you have to manoevre your characters strategically to survive.

It's harder than typical SRPGs because often others(Shining Force) have most the enemies be passive until you get in range.

wish the best srpgs didn't involve rape desu

>Seriously why are SRPG like this.

A lot of SRPGs treat the gameplay like its "Final Fantasy" on a grid so just think its a case of randomly dotting enemies round a map. When really its a whole different type of gameplay where new kinds of challenges can be made just by the shape of the map or the position of enemies and terrain.

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>Because, like most maps in Awakening, its just a big open stage where the enemy bum rushes and you don't have much in the way of defending against it that early on given how genuinely awful some of the early game units you get are.

So it's exactly the thing the original image in this post chain was trying to say other SRPGs where.

shining force tiles alter movement dramatically though.saying it's "flat" just because you see grass and forest is embarassing

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make by posting the image of the stage in the first place....

It greatly implies the contrary

There are such things in SF2 though, like prism flowers and the chess battle, as well as some other endgame ones. What you posted is the second proper fight in the game

How into the fuck could me ripping apart FE's level design being just as shitty as any other srpg be taken as anything but exactly that?

I'm genuinely confused how you got that I was implying the contrary there.

>Mind control?
Now there's a thought. You'd have to make the controller stationary and vulnrable to not be too OP but with some sensible limitations in place controlling one enemy unit would be a cool addition to a SRPG. More than one would very much be pushing it, of course.

Because that's not what the picture implies. The amount of detail in the FE picture plus the gross over generalization of the other side creates a stark contrast in implied quality. Because that's how juxtaposition fucking works.

Generally flying units don't get terrain effects, so no defence or evasion bonuses in exchange for ignoring slowdown and obsticles. That's usually pretty balanced as is.

I think you're mixing up his post and the one he replied to

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Maybe. Im tired.

I posted this in response to thisPerhaps our wires got crossed here or whatever, but this is about as clear as I can possibly make it

Yeah I was talking about the other one. So my bad.

bumping for more perspective