Why is this game so shit?

I most certainly do. 3 and 4 are Shakespeare compared to 5

yuri on ice is fun!

Can someone re-explain to me everything after Shido? Honestly it just slipped right past my head.

They forgot how to make stereotypical anime tropes interesting, or they stopped giving a fuck. With how successful P5 was, expect more lazy writing in the future.

>With how successful P5 was, expect more lazy writing in the future.

I hope not. Hashino is stepping down from Persona. Boggles my mind why he wanted to write 5 when he had competent writers do 3 and 4.

Persona 5 isn't about beating up morally ambiguous people, it's about beating up literal criminals. Sex offenders, traffickers, thieves, groomers, mafia members, killers.

If they sincerely tried to make you empathize with someone like Kamoshida then the game would be fucking terrible and not fun. They throw every villain a bone by giving them one or two lines about how "it's not my fault!!" or "s-society made me this way!" and the main cast tells them to shut the fuck up and stop deflecting blame.

Also, P4 did not have nuanced, believable villains. Adachi in the base game has literally no motive at all and never tries to get the party to empathize with his cause. Nametame has no motive either. They're just assholes.

You talk as if literal criminals aren't generally morally ambiguous. You confuse them for cackling mustache-swirling cartoon villains.

Like I said, the game throws them a few bones but it's blatantly fucking obvious that they're just terrible people. Not all bad people have a good reason to be, some are just sociopaths. This game is legit more realistic for having villains that don't have gay 40 page long tragic backstories like a shitty Deviantart self insert, because most bad people don't.

Spoiler warnings for anyone who is reading this thread and didn't expect spoilers.

So you steal Shido's heart so he confesses, but his operatives cover up the whole debacle and try to play him off as a victim of some mental health issues, so nobody really ends up giving a shit/is even aware of the circumstances in the first place. To solve this, Morgana gets the bright idea of stealing the hearts of the public, hoping to gain their attention so they realize that Shido is a scumbag.

So you go into Mementos (the palace that belongs to the public consciousness) to steal the treasure. Turns out the "treasure" is ol' Galdy, the god of control, who tells you that the public wants him to be in control of them so that they don't have to deal with the stress of having freedom of thought or agency over their actions; in other words, he says that humans *like* not being in control of their lives because it's too much work.

He fuses Mementos and the real world because he's an asshole who wants to end the world, since he thinks humans are pissants. You go to the Velvet Room where he reveals that he locked Igor up and pretended to be him to guide you along what is essentially a game to him, revealing that he gave you and Akechi the same powers to see which one of you would "win" his game (that game being to determine whether humans are weak, like Akechi, or strong like you). It's clear that you won the game, but he's a prick so he says he's gonna end the world anyway because humans suck.

He asks you to strike a deal which would more or less ruin the world, making humans cave into their apathy (also your friends get locked in the Velvet Room for the rest of time). If you say no, then he runs away and Igor suddenly shows up, who then 1) reveals that Morgana is of his creation, intended to lead you to the velvet room so you could beat Yaldy and 2) gives you the world arcana so that you can go fuck this guy up and save the world. Then you do.

That's about it.

You're expecting too much from a game series that is made for young teenagers. Just play SMT bro.

Attached: 1490298833151.jpg (480x360, 21K)

its a trump allegory newfriend

>Namatame has no motive
Did we play the same game?

thank you

this desu

OH SHIT IT'S PASCAL

Why do retards expect video games to always be more nuanced and """"believable"""" than real life? Some people are just assholes. In fact a lot of people are just assholes.

to be fair, people are assholes for a reason. But you can't fix them, unfortunately. It's something trained and coded into them from childhood.

Human nature is all about being an opportunistic asshole, society is all about training you to curb that impulse/desire to be an opportunistic asshole in order to support a greater good via co-operation. Some people adapt to that well, some people... don't.

>he says that humans *like* not being in control of their lives because it's too much work

Was he wrong?

Attached: 1559854752896.jpg (640x427, 58K)

desu nametame doesn't really have a "motive" because he doesn't realize he's doing something wrong, he's just an idiot

i didn't even consider him a villain when i played p4, just a dumbass

>Nametame has no motive either.

I'm not sure how your takeaway from P4 is that Nametame is the same kind of asshole as Adachi.

Don't kid yourself. P3 is also shit.

Damn, pretty much everything you wrote is wrong.

Beating up "literal criminals" might be fun in a musuo game but not in a 100 hour JRPG where 60% of the game is a visual novel and they spend half of that talking about the villains. There is no justification for making them so shallow and boring.

Secondly, your limited brain failed to realize Namatame (who has a clear and emphatetic motive, you obviously haven't played the game) and Adachi (who gets explained in P4G) aren't the only villains. Every party member's shadow self are also villains, similar to criminals from Persona 5 or Futaba's shadow. And they are all waaayyyy more nuanced and believable than anything in Persona 5 (except Futaba which was straight up cosplay of Persona 4).

>this thread again

damn you're a complete moron rofl

P3 is the fourth Persona game you fucking brainlet

It will stop when the p5niggers admit p5 was a mistake and we should remove it from the persona canon

you can also choose to side with Yaldoneth which gives you a bad end game over; but you do legitimately become his Lt. over a brainwashed dysotopia world.

>Was he wrong?
ehh. SoSo. We have a definite and obvious tendency to follow the leader (pack animals), but apathy is something trained into people by society.

Fiction is inherently contrived.
is right, if you're going to spend so much time on characters, they should have some amount of depth to them.

That's the fun of P3/P5 endings imo. They both end with a god basically saying "this is what humans want, nerds, i'm just the messenger", but some teenagers up and decide that they speak for humanity as a whole and save the world.

>Beating up "literal criminals" might be fun in a musuo game but not in a 100 hour JRPG where 60% of the game is a visual novel and they spend half of that talking about the villains. There is no justification for making them so shallow and boring.
If you think P5 is about the motives of the villains, then you misunderstood the entire point of the game.

>Namatame (who has a clear and emphatetic motive, you obviously haven't played the game)
Nametame's backstory is really fucking shallow. Why did you like it? How did you like it?

>Adachi (who gets explained in P4G)
Adachi's motives are piss poor too. They're non existent in the base game, and in P4G/the anime he's just exposed as a bitter faggot who blames the world for all of his problems. Why does Yea Forums obsess so hard over Adachi having an "empathetic" backstory, are you guys really this pathetic irl?

>Every party member's shadow self are also villains, similar to criminals from Persona 5 or Futaba's shadow. And they are all waaayyyy more nuanced and believable than anything in Persona 5
Yes, that's because P4 handled villains differently by designing them as giant character development generators for the main cast. If Atlus just reused this schtick, the game would seem tired and shitty. The goal with Persona 5 was to design villains that all had a significant impact on the main case, giving the player incentive to take them down because they care about the main cast, not about the development of the villain themselves.

If you didn't like the main cast enough to find beating the villains down enjoyable, then that's your problem.

Also, do not fucking call P4's shadows nuanced, you retard. Maybe two or three of them were any good, Yosuke's and Chie's were absolute shit and Teddie's was contrived as fuck. Then after you beat the shadow and the respective character has their big explosion of development/growth or whatever, it goes on to be more or less ignored for the rest of the game, with the exception of Kanji and Naoto.

>counting IS and EP as 2 and 3
That aside first game was a basic bitch dungeon crawler and all 2 had was it's story, which lets be honest was ok at best.

>Delusional Persona 4 baby

>every spell, ability and attack has its own animation and graphics, none is the same, literally
>isometric view and first person view in a fucking dungeon crawler, outrageous
>two main quests that branch out with meaningful dialogue and story each
>each character has its own set of dialogue for every fucking room through the whole game
>impressive cutscenes for its age
fuck off

Okay.
It didn't age well though.

yeah, I agree on that

I'll give you Teddie and maybe Yosuke (still better than anything in P5 bar Futaba). Chie was great wtf

>yosuke
"This town is really boring and I have no friends so I act like stale bread so people like me lol"
>chie
"I'm insecure in my femininity and intelligence so I live vicariously through Yukiko, I'm a shit friend lol"

And then neither character changed at all in the plot after these revelations happened.

P5's character development is great bar Haru and Yusuke, who both act more or less the same throughout the entire story despite going through a lot of shit. They're fun characters but don't really change much.

>still thinking Motives = good villain
>STILL thinking that "muh sobstory" makes a villain good
Shut the fuck up.
you know why the archetype of pure evil villains still exist? because it's fucking good.

> then you misunderstood the entire point of the game.

Unless the point of the game is sucking ass, then it fails at it. In fact, this "point of the game" argument is brought up any time P5niggers can't defend their shit. P5 is badly written and it doesn't have some kind of higher integrity to justify such writing since it breaks its own themes in favor of borrowing concepts from previous games (like the Futaba dungeon which is a copy of p4).

>Nametame's backstory is really fucking shallow. Why did you like it? How did you like it?

If your bar of quality is that Namatame is shallow, then you have literally no excuses for ANY of persona games. Namatame's motive is simple as fuck. His mistress got killed and he thought he could prevent other people's death by throwing them into the TV (because he misunderstood the midnight channel). It's not going to win a pulitzer but he was effective in the minor role he's given in the story. I honestly wish I could say anything about p5 story was effective.

>Adachi's motives are piss poor too

At this point, either present an actual argument or stop seething. You have nothing substantial to say. You probably got hooked on p5 gameplay and aesthetic and now you won't admit the story was low level anime garbage just to feel better.

>Yes, that's because P4 handled villains differently by designing them as giant character development generators for the main cast.

Well, yes. That was good design.

>If Atlus just reused this schtick, the game would seem tired and shitty.

They did reuse it with Futaba which is by far the best dungeon in the game and it exposes just how terrible all their new ideas were.

>The goal with Persona 5 was to design villains...

Which is a paradox since the cast needs to be likable or relateable and they fail to do that nearly as well as P4.

Fucking thank you. Fiction would be boring as sin if every """good""" villain broke down and told you a 15 minute sob story after you beat them like a retard.

All villains need is a motive for doing the bad shit they do, even if it's not sympathetic. And people need to understand that, yes, being greedy or being a megalomanic *are* motives that inspire the actions of real, actual human criminals on a regular basis.

As long as the defeat of a villain inspires growth in another character (or better yet, multiple characters), then it's a fine villain.

>In fact, this "point of the game" argument is brought up any time P5niggers can't defend their shit.
>"I didn't misunderstand anything, you're just wrong"
Amazing fucking argument.
>(like the Futaba dungeon which is a copy of p4).
Not even close to being true.
>His mistress got killed and he thought he could prevent other people's death by throwing them into the TV (because he misunderstood the midnight channel).
That isn't a motive, he was just an idiot. If a villain does things by accident, he doesn't need a motive because that means he was just a red herring. The person receiving the story doesn't need to know why someone did something bad if they didn't know they were doing something bad, and it's ultimately anticlimactic to chase down a "villain" who turns out to simply be clueless. That's why Nametame was not a satisfying villain, because he literally wasn't one.
>At this point, either present an actual argument or stop seething.
What argument do you want from me? Do you need someone to spell out for you why Adachi's whole "wahhh i am really smart but i got stuck with this shitty job it's not fair" isn't a good motive for being a sexual assailant and a murderer?
>Well, yes. That was good design.
It was, and I'm just saying it is not the same design as P5 so comparing P5's villains to P4's doesn't make sense since the two games inherently treated the fundamental concept of "villains" differently.
>They did reuse it with Futaba
Incorrect.
>Which is a paradox since the cast needs to be likable or relateable and they fail to do that nearly as well as P4.
Completely disagree, P4's cast is fun and cute but most of them are woefully underdeveloped (again, Kanji and Naoto aside). I could go into detail but I'm running out of space.

Yosuke goes a bit deeper than that in his SL (which is excellent), but I agree his dungeon wasn't the best.

>chie
>"I'm insecure in my femininity and intelligence so I live vicariously through Yukiko, I'm a shit friend lol"

What part of that seems stupid to you? You could write the same type of shit about any character in existence. The point is, it was good and it was sincere. P5 is neither. There is no insight, no development, nothing. They just ramble on about the one dimensional villains and use metaverse jargon. It's baffling to me that you could write that about chie but not realize it's more compelling than anything persona 5 throws at you (except futaba which might as well be a persona 4 character since they forgot they were making 5)

Why do people act like there aren't people like the Persona 5 antagonists in real life? Some of them are even apparently based off real people. Kamoshida was based off an actual Olympic athlete from Japan who did sexual harassment to others.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masato_Uchishiba

Hell, even "kill everyone" or "feels good" is a motive.
and let's be honest, everyone likes those kind of villains even if they don't realize it.

This isn't Lord of the rings, nigger. It's a bunch of shallow retarded villains reeing and they OCCUPY nearly EVERY CONVERSATION in a 100 hour jrpg.

It's almost like P4 is about people while P5 is about a society that enables and manipulates people.

>guy who wrote "not enough human drama, too much action" on the Godzilla review

Oh so you’re a faggot. Makes sense

I just play the game, even watch a terrible cartoon TV show, for my beatiful wife.

Attached: 1559511072025.jpg (1920x1080, 143K)

>Yosuke goes a bit deeper than that in his SL (which is excellent)
Yeah, his social link is good. Idk, when analyzing character development in Persona games (3 thru 5 anyway) it's always hard to decide if you should stick to the development throughout the plot or if you can include their social links too.
>What part of that seems stupid to you?
It's not stupid per se, it's just that she doesn't really grow from that. She doesn't act any differently throughout the rest of the story, which makes it seem like she didn't actually get in touch with her feminine side, and she treats Yukiko the same way as she did before (mainly because it was never really evident to the player that she treated her poorly in the first place).

I just felt like Yosuke and Chie getting their personas didn't lead to any real growth. With Kanji, his demeanor clearly changes. Same thing with Naoto. Rise too, to a lesser extent.

>There is no insight, no development, nothing.
This isn't true at all, if you believe no character development happened in the plot of P5 then you just weren't really paying attention.

I'm the P5fag dumping paragraphs about the game and I didn't even know this. Really interesting to know, thanks user.

Three of the game's eight dungeons aren't even about villains though. Futaba, Sae, and Mementos are all totally disconnected from the "let's beat up some criminals!" thing.

Are you retarded enough to think Sae was a one dimensional "villain" or did you just not play persona 5 and cried about it on the internet instead?

>or did you just not play persona 5 and cried about it on the internet instead
That's easily 95% of P5-related complaints. I'm not even going to pretend it's perfect or deep, it's pretty fucking easy to understand yet these retards let such a simple game go completely over their heads because all they did was watch some shitty Let's Play.

fpbp

Sae *and* Galdy both make up two of the game's three dungeons that involve a final boss that presents character development and/or a motive that is arguably valid.

Literally almost half of the game's villains are sympathetic. I swear to fucking god these people never finished the game. They got to Haru and quit.

>They got to Haru
That's being generous.

>Other games: Present nuanced and believable villains with motivations you can empathize with
Give 5 examples from other Persona games

You can't say "Amazing fucking argument" and then follow up by ad hominem "Not even close to being true.". If I didn't know you're retarded I would think you're baiting

>That isn't a motive, he was just an idiot.

Yes, a believable idiot.

>That's why Nametame was not a satisfying villain, because he literally wasn't one.

Congratulations, you figured it out. He was supposed to be unsatisfying because it's supposed to make you think there is someone else who's the real villain. He was just a red herring. It's mind boggling that you couldn't figure this out, but I can't say I'm surprised. You're a p5 fan after all.

>What argument do you want from me?

Any. You didn't present a single one.

>It was, and I'm just saying it is not the same design as P5 so comparing P5's villains to P4's doesn't make sense since the two games inherently treated the fundamental concept of "villains" differently.

Yes, and I'm saying the way P5 handled it sucked. A game isn't exempt from criticism just because it's different.

>They did reuse it with Futaba
>Incorrect.

More ad hominem from P5niggers. PRESENT A FUCKING ARGUMENT YOU TASTELESS FAGGOT. Futaba follows the same formula as P4 dungeons. Meet plot related character, go into a dungeon with them or for them, face their shadow. Defeat shadow, character gets over whatever was bothering them and shadow disappears.

>Completely disagree, P4's cast is fun and cute but most of them are woefully underdeveloped

Please go into detail, because I can't understand how someone can think P4 characters had less development than P5. Sure, maybe one character, but overall P4 wins easily.

>HURR DURR it's not a real villain if I can't empathize with him!
>Missing the point of the game this bad
Yep, P5 is definitely too deep for the average Personafag.

Attached: the truth on Persona.jpg (1155x957, 301K)

Takaya because I want to murder every P3 character and destroy the entire game with how terrible it is.

The thing is, P4 succeeds at what it does and P5 fails.

Persona aren't supposed to be mindless action games. P5 is, and it ruined the series.

Your personal stupidity is not Atlus' fault.

I reckon that, since they constantly talk about how Futaba is so great, they at least go that far. Okumura is also probably the least convincing villain in the game so I can see people quitting there.
First off, that's not what ad hominem means. Second, Futaba is not akin to the shadows in Persona 4. In Persona 4, shadows were the manifestation of the parts of yourself that you don't like and cast away. In Persona 5, Futaba's shadow was a good person. She showed up to talk Futaba through her memories as a child. More importantly, Shadow Futaba isn't the actual villain of the dungeon (unlike P4 shadows which are); the villain is Futaba's false memory of her mother.

Shadow Futaba is your friend. The villain is the false memory planted by the ACTUAL bad guys who forced Wakaba to have a mental shutdown.

>He was supposed to be unsatisfying because it's supposed to make you think there is someone else who's the real villain.
Who, in the base game, is quite fucking clearly Adachi because he's the only character with a portrait who is 1) not dead and 2) lacks a social link.

Also I like how you claim I couldn't figure out that Nametame is a red herring even though I literally called him a red herring in my post. That's *why* he's unsatisfying. If you want to talk about spending 80 hours chasing a villain, then getting some anticlimactic, shallow bullshit, then take a look at Nametame who is literally there to subvert your satisfaction and pad an additional 20 hours to the plot.

>Any. You didn't present a single one.
I literally followed up that statement with reasons why Adachi is not a sympathetic character. Read.

>Yes, and I'm saying the way P5 handled it sucked. A game isn't exempt from criticism just because it's different.
And you're saying that it sucked because it's different, which isn't a valid criticism.

>It's not stupid per se, it's just that she doesn't really grow from that. She doesn't act any differently throughout the rest of the story, which makes it seem like she didn't actually get in touch with her feminine side, and she treats Yukiko the same way as she did before (mainly because it was never really evident to the player that she treated her poorly in the first place).

Of course they're not going to act completely differently but some nuances are there. Especially with Kanji or Naoto. Characters like Yosuke managed to overcome their grief and feeling of incompetence, Chie stopped feeling like a sidekick in Yukiko's story, Yukiko stopped feeling pressured into playing a role given to her by society (something she still struggles with in he social link, familial expectations).

>This isn't true at all, if you believe no character development happened in the plot of P5 then you just weren't really paying attention.

Again, I list actual examples and yet all I hear about P5 is ad hominem.

>Three of the game's eight dungeons aren't even about villains though.

No way, all three of them? Mementos is hardly any better, it's just defeating side characters that we never get to know well. So 2 dungeons. Wow.

>I swear to fucking god these people never finished the game.

I didn't. I played 65 hours and I had enough. One dungeon isn't possible enough to save the shit I had to endure.

You retards with your "duuuude you didn't even give it a 100 hours maaan" are frankly embarrassing.

>In Persona 4, shadows were the manifestation of the parts of yourself that you don't like and cast away. In Persona 5, Futaba's shadow was a good person.
You fucking idiot. It's because Futaba was suppressing the parts of herself that were good, because of how much she blamed herself for her mom's death. It's exactly the same as P4 shadows, being repressed parts of one's self. It's the same as ALL shadows, because that's what shadows are in the Jungian source material, you illiterate blithering retard.

Now this is epic

contd
>Futaba follows the same formula as P4 dungeons. Meet plot related character, go into a dungeon with them or for them, face their shadow. Defeat shadow, character gets over whatever was bothering them and shadow disappears.
Confirmed, you did not play this game or you just don't remember how this shit played out. YOU DO NOT FIGHT HER SHADOW. You fight the false memory of her mother, which Futaba's Shadow aids you in defeating by reminding Futaba of how her mother truly was so that she could overcome those false memories. Those false memories exist because Wakaba was killed by Akechi/Shido, the actual villains. THE VILLAIN OF HER DUNGEON IS AKECHI AND SHIDO. You fucking dipshit.

>I can't understand how someone can think P4 characters had less development than P5.
Is it really that much of a stretch of the imagination when none of them goes through legitimately traumatizing events, unlike the P5 cast, and none of them have sad backstories, unlike the P5 cast, and none of them have any actual reason to find the cause of the murders other than the fact that the cast themselves are being personally targeted?

Note that this is me conveying my arguments as a rhetorical question. Do not read this post and think I am not presenting arguments again.

>contrarian who criticizes p5 admits to not having finished it
I rest my case. God damn nigger you are dumb as hell.

>Other games: Present nuanced and believable villains with motivations you can empathize with
Not other jRPGs

It's still not a fucking holdover from P4 you imbecile. Fundamentally, no shit, the Shadow is treated the same way, but narratively the Shadow turns the whole concept of "Shadow = bad!" onto its head. How the fuck can it be a copycat of P4's approach to shadows if it literally subverts the entire concept of that game?

>Again, I list actual examples and yet all I hear about P5 is ad hominem.
Do you know what an ad hominem is? Why is this being misused so much itt?

Ryuji, Ann, Makoto, and Sae are all clearly well developed.

>No way, all three of them?
That's nearly half of the game's content, retard.

All the games are like that. It has some good villains, and some bad ones. Like 3, like 4, etc.

GODDDDDDDDD I want to fuck Jack Frost so FUCKING BAD

Attached: $.png (2303x2924, 3.37M)

Only 3*

i dont know why but i read this in anons jevil voice

p3 has great villains like strega oh wait thy were trash

>Yea Forumsnintendogaf is still mad because persona 5 isn't on switch
grow up
p5 will continue to be the best current jrpg no matter how much you cry

OLD GOOD
NEW BAD

>defending personashit trash writing
How far has Yea Forums fallen

Don't forget Ikutsuki who fucking blows.

Strega at least has some kind of motive, even though it boils down to "dude everything sucks and it'd be good if we died lmao".

WAAAH WAAH RAPING UNDERAGE GIRLS IS BAD

I hate being that guy, but what's with all the P5 hate and bickering lately? Game's had problems, but those problems existed on release. Why all the attention now?

Is it honestly because of Atlus saying it won't be ported? Christ almighty.

Yea Forums hasn't stopped crying for Persona since like 4.

>First off, that's not what ad hominem means.

PFFWAHAHAHAA I can't believe someone would use ad hominem to tell me I don't know what ad hominem means. AHAHA thank you for this. You diverted our argument to another issue or you simply stated the opposite of what I said - that's ad hominem.

>Second, Futaba is not akin to the shadows in Persona 4. In Persona 4, shadows were the manifestation of the parts of yourself that you don't like and cast away. In Persona 5, Futaba's shadow was a good person. She showed up to talk Futaba through her memories as a child. More importantly, Shadow Futaba isn't the actual villain of the dungeon (unlike P4 shadows which are); the villain is Futaba's false memory of her mother

So much wrong with this. In Persona 4 the shadows weren't "casted away" they even fucking spell it out for you brainless nigger "I GET IT NOW, YOURE A PART OF ME". Your memory is absolutely terrible.

>Shadow Futaba is your friend. The villain is the false memory planted by the ACTUAL bad guys who forced Wakaba to have a mental shutdown.

Kanji's shadow was his friend, the enemy was the society which made him believe he was gay simply because he liked girly things. Here, it's the same thing as Persona 4.

>Who, in the base game, is quite fucking clearly Adachi

Wew lad another ad hominem. This time you're going to a different subject huh. Yeah, sure the whole mystery around Adachi deserves some criticism but that's not what we were talking about.

>lso I like how you claim I couldn't figure out that Nametame is a red herring even though I literally called him a red herring in my post.

You called him a red herring first to say he isn't a villain. Then you said he is a villain but an unsatifying one and then you said he literally isn't a villain. Excuse me but your writing is retarded.

And the scenario around Namatame is not about "subverting your expectations", it's about not making a hasty decision and taking your time.

Could be nintendies seething, but it could also be because P5R is coming out/Joker went to Smash, so P5 is a hot topic again.

Then again, never underestimate Yea Forums's ability to fail to understand basic nuance in a story written about japanese teenagers then cry about it on Yea Forums.

is that image ironic or a bait? i can't tell anymore.

Attached: 1543336849192.png (421x421, 7K)

>You diverted our argument to another issue or you simply stated the opposite of what I said - that's ad hominem.
Oh no, it's retarded. I actually feel bad replying to your posts now. I'm sorry, user.

Don't think I even saw this much shitflinging regarding the game's admittedly dumb plot holes when Joker came out for Smash.

I'm guessing it's the console war bullshit. I'd love to see a port of these games one day (especially mainline SMT, fucking emulating DDS is a nightmare) but some people flip their shit over any thought that it would/wouldn't be ported.

Anyway, even though I feel bad for dismantling a mentally disabled person's post, I'm gonna do it anyway.

>So much wrong with this. In Persona 4 the shadows weren't "casted away" they even fucking spell it out for you brainless nigger "I GET IT NOW, YOURE A PART OF ME".
You misunderstood my post (not surprising given that you're clearly not very smart). I was saying that shadows are the bad parts of people that they cast away because they don't like them, but the main cast gets their personas because they do what many people don't and they accept their shadows so they can become one.

>Kanji's shadow was his friend
Yes, that's why he tries to kill the main cast. I like how your whole point of "the villains of P4 are the shadows of the main cast which is good" and now you're 180'ing from that point because it's convenient for you.

>Wew lad another ad hominem. This time you're going to a different subject huh.
Oh god, you just reminded me that I'm arguing with an actual idiot. Please google ad hominem so that I can stop feeling bad for bullying a mentally retarded person.

>p3 has great villains like

Attached: P3_Tanaka_Render.png (350x437, 107K)

You're not supposed to sympathize with him. You're only contact with him is learning who he is in the real world and then entering a part of his psyche which exclusively represents the worst part of him rather than who he is in the whole. The reasoning for why you only see the worst if him is apparent, the only way you would see it gvien the context is if the Pat's for some reason felt the need to expose themselves to some sob story of his which wouldn't suit them at all, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that kind of writing. If they tried to make him a character with some depth who you could sympathize with and failed, that would be bad writing, but they didn't and them not having any desire to write their villains that way doesn't make the writing bad. The writing in the game is bad in some areas, but there's nothing wrong with how characters like Kamoshida and Kaneshiro are portrayed as that portrayal is completely justified within the game's setting.

So far itt I have responded to anti P5 fags who:
>think ad hominem means the same thing as strawman
>got 65 hours in and quit but still thinks they are capable of criticizing the game's narrative, theme, and character development

Hell this might even be the same person, but fuck me if this isn't strong evidence that any given criticism of P5 is 99% likely to come from an idiot.

the worst part about p5 is that thy made kamoshida the first villain he was the best and every other villain after him fell short

You realize most of the villains in P5 are based off real scandals in Japan right?

Real criminals aren't charismatic, they are in fact mustache twirling villains.

oh and the entire wank off between akechi and shido was awful and the use of flashbacks in the game is bad an example would be when you see kamoshida in his car and then a 1 min later you get a flash back of that frame

I can see why people liked Kamoshida the most, but I personally thought Kaneshiro was more evil and I thought Sae was more satisfying narratively.

But yeah, Kamoshida was at least a top three villain in terms of narrative buildup and payoff. It helps that it's the very first dungeon, so the player hasn't had time to get tired of the formula of how palaces play out.

>You misunderstood my post (not surprising given that you're clearly not very smart). I was saying that shadows are the bad parts of people that they cast away because they don't like them, but the main cast gets their personas because they do what many people don't and they accept their shadows so they can become one.

Why the fuck would you even compare regular shadows to main party member shadows? If you're going to compare 4 and 5 then compare main party shadows from 4 with main party shadows from 5 you absolute retard.

>Yes, that's why he tries to kill the main cast. I like how your whole point of "the villains of P4 are the shadows of the main cast which is good" and now you're 180'ing from that point because it's convenient for you.

I seriously can't comprehend your line of thinking here. Where did I 180 on it and what the fuck doesn Kanji's shadow being a boss fight has to do with anything? Just because Futaba accepted a part of herself beforehand doesn't change anything. She still needs to fight a part of her that's dealing with those lies. You do realize Wakaba isn't there, right? It's still all inside Futabas cognition? Damn, you're retarded.

>Oh god, you just reminded me that I'm arguing with an actual idiot. Please google ad hominem so that I can stop feeling bad for bullying a mentally retarded person.

Literally no arguments again and a personal attack. It's fucking hilarious that you still can't see how retarded you are

Who was Shido based on?

And how do I vote or him?

P5fag checking in again, I'm really interested in this now. I read another user link the guy who inspired Kamoshida, but what are the other ones?

The fact that these are based on real people BTFOs the everloving shit out of P3/4 fags.

>Literally no arguments again and a personal attack.
Oh, oh! Here we go! Okay, so I have substituted an argument with a personal attack. So, user, what is this referred to in debate nomenclature! You got this!

>So far itt I have responded to anti P5 fags who:
>think ad hominem means the same thing as strawman
>got 65 hours in and quit but still thinks they are capable of criticizing the game's narrative, theme, and character development

>Hell this might even be the same person, but fuck me if this isn't strong evidence that any given criticism of P5 is 99% likely to come from an idiot.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN MORE AD HOMINEM AWAHAHAHAHAHWAHAHAH

From wikipedia:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

AAJHAAHHASHAHWWHAHA

kanjis shadow would have killed him if you didnt stop it so no it wasnt like futabas shadow

>Oh, oh! Here we go! Okay, so I have substituted an argument with a personal attack. So, user, what is this referred to in debate nomenclature! You got this!

I literally left this for you to figure out for yourself and you reply with this.... can't help but roll over in laughter right now

>Who, in the base game, is quite fucking clearly Adachi

Wew lad another ad hominem. This time you're going to a different subject huh. Yeah, sure the whole mystery around Adachi deserves some criticism but that's not what we were talking about.
that wasnt an ad hominem tho

>Adachi has no motive
>never tried to get the party to empathise
Did you actually play the game?

Oh christ, is this the best you've got P5niggers

>KanJIs HaIR waS BLue SO Its TOtallY DiffeREnt FroM FutaBA

Fuck me. are you going to use any irrelevant detail to try and get out of this? Futaba dungeon followed the same formula as P4 dungeons. There are no technicalities that you can pull out of your ass to refute this

user... You're really letting me down, dude. Please calm down and read that definition again, slowly this time.
In the base game, Adachi just says he does it because he could. They expanded his motive in P4G and in the anime.

>Fuck me. are you going to use any irrelevant detail
futabas shadow dose not try to kill her yet kanjis dose how the hell are thy the same dumbass

>You diverted our argument to another issue or you simply stated the opposite of what I said - that's ad hominem.

Attached: smughouse.png (399x382, 87K)

I'm done here. You had nothing this entire time. I hoped I would get ANY argument for why P5 didn't suck but all I got was "namatame was a bad villain but also a red herring but also not a villain" and "futaba is totally not like p4 because her boss fight technically isn't her shadow self" (even though it is when you think about it, but I get it - thinking is hard for you).

You had nothing about P5 at all. All of my criticism was met with "but what about p4 bro" and then I would have to spend 10 minutes explaining things to a brainlet

Next time prepare ANYTHING, a single instance of good writing in p5 to defend your game with because this was embarrassing to read

i remember seeing this meme on pewdiepie

user, I can't continue this discussion until I know without a doubt that you have ascertained the true meaning of what "ad hominem" means. Please confirm for me that you have carefully read its meaning and now understand that you were wrong, and we will continue our conversation. Otherwise, I will be right and you will be wrong. Deal?

Wakaba is still Futaba's shadow you ignorant fuck Just because they gave it a different name it doesn't mean it's something else. It's still a part of Futaba's cognition that believes Wakaba to be a bad mother.

However, if you're telling me that's an actual manifestation of a LIE which has no impact on Futaba anymore then I would have to ask you why is that a boss fight at all. It shouldn't even be aggressive then if we're using the rules of logic and psychology (but I know that's super super hard for you, user)

t.assblasted nintendie

>It's still a part of Futaba's cognition that believes Wakaba to be a bad mother.
>this not-shadow is a shadow because i said so

True

cognition arnt shadows dumbass never in the game was it stated that thy are

>persona 1, 2 and 3
>Nintendo
This is why ironic weebs are the worst.

This is the power of P5 brainlets. This is the level of thinking they possess. Everyone else watching, every other P5 fan - this your level.

I honestly have no argument here. This is beyond what I expected to get as an answer. In a way, you've defeated me. I will never again post about how much p5 sucks on Yea Forums. Never will I forget the absolute state of p5 fans.

P5 was better than P3 and P4 by such a huge margin that threads like this are still being made by upset fatlus devotees almost 3 years later.

user, the game explicitly says that cognitive beings are not shadows. The only shadows are the palace rulers and the demons that they command.

Why are you screeching about a game you didn't even play?

>I will never again post about how much p5 sucks on Yea Forums.
Thank fuck.

Attached: brainlettttt.jpg (800x450, 44K)

to be fair shadows in persona are the worst parts of people unfiltered. it's actually kind of unfair to judge people by their shadows alone but the PTs do it anyway lol. but either way, it was to justify mind raping people into stop being assholes. anyway, posting the best human persona villain.

Attached: KandoriP1.png (197x487, 78K)

Why don't you tell me what's so morally ambiguous about john wayne gacy and peter scully then? there are plenty of criminals that are just irredeemably evil.

No, you are right. Cognitive beings technically are not shadows since they are clearly called cognitive beings. Cognitive Wakaba is just that - Cognitive Wakaba. There are no parallels here, no deeper insight. And I guess this proves it. Futaba dungeon is not the same thing as P4 dungeons since the final boss isn't a shadow, rather a "cognitive being" that has almost nothing to do with shadows.

Now, if I were in my previous false mindset of trying to use logic and reason to discern what "cognitive wakaba" means, I would guess that it's still a part of Futaba since a) it exists in Futaba's shadow world and b) it's trying to kill Futaba so it means it still has some power over her. This all sounds VERY closely to describing a SHADOW, but MAKE NO MISTAKE - this is "CoGnitiVE WakABa" we are talking about.

>it's trying to kill Futaba so it means it still has some power over her. This all sounds VERY closely to describing a SHADOW
Shadows do not try to kill their real selves, user.

don't forget that Yea Forums is nintendo central, just look at the amount of shiposting and threads/per minute when a new smash announcement comes in.

The point is, joker on smash created an absurd sense of confidence among fanboys, supported by those shit "lmeakers", that the game was gonna come on switch because "why would they put him on smash if not for that?"
So when atlus openly confirms "we never said that, no p5 for you" said fanboys obviously threw tantrums like 5 years old because that's what ravid childish fanboys to
"if i have it it's great but if i can't then it's shit"

yes thy arnt the same sense the only way to beat a shadow is to accept them as your true self but cognitive wakaba was only beaten when futaba rejected her so no thy are not the same fucking thing

and the final boss is a cognitive god that can only be beaten when the people reject his control cognitive are like the opposite of shadows

>Shadows do not try to kill their real selves, user.

You are definitely right. I have no argument here. I'll just have to accept that Persona 4 never existed and it was all in my mind. Keep fighting the good fight, P5 brothers! You are definitely not retarded ignorants no matter what others say!

Why'd he turn into a fly anyways? Is it really just to frame makoto's phrase "I'll squash him like a fly"

because his true self was just a pathetic loser

>false mindset of trying to use logic and reason
Yes it is a false mindset because youre basically arguing that ids and superegos are the same fucking thing you brainlet.

I'm glad you're just giving up. You're the guy who thought ad hominem means the same thing as strawman, right? I hope this means you're officially done posting about P5 on Yea Forums, I think the board might be on the verge of imploding due to the ongoing surge of stupidity you're flooding it with.
It's a reference to Beelzebub, god of gluttony.

That makes sense, thanks user.

No, no. I completely agree with you. It's totally it's very own thing. No shadow self required the character to reject lies *ahem* Yosuke when he had false visions of Saki hating on him *ahem*. Absolutely no one *khhhumm* oh god im having a terrible cough right now *ahemmm* Kanji when he had to refuse the lies his shadow self threw at him of him being gay *ahem*.

So, user. You convinced me. You are the power brain. I totally didn't refute everything any P5 fanboy said in this thread. I totally got owned, am I right hehe?

Wow you're such a contrarian OP. Extremely cool and original.

user are you okay?

Attached: sweat.gif (272x204, 2.89M)

I just assume everything on the board is bait these days.

https megamitensei.fandom.com wiki Cognition

i think you shod read this to fully understand the difference between the two sense it talks about p4 shadow Cognition as well

>Hurdur all fat man/woman bad. Thin man/woman gud.
>Mature
Healthy kek there famalan.

Attached: 1557926981087.jpg (1065x742, 65K)

>I'm glad you're just giving up

Yeah, it was fun for a while but only now I see the absolute state of (You). P5 fans you deserve my respect, no matter how tough it is, you guys are able to defend anything. And I mean - anything.

I think I'm allergic to niggers. Specifically, p5 niggers. Hopefully they choose to create their own board one day. All 3 of them

It's not really that tough when the person you're arguing with admits that he didn't even finish the game (dunno if that was you, it was some idiot itt though). Appreciate the compliment tho m8

>All 3 of them
What fantasy world are you living in? P5 is the most popular persona by far.

>No shadow self required the character to reject lies *ahem* Yosuke
What does this imply? I clearly remember Shadow Yosuke saying that he lies all the time and Yosuke going "not uh Im a good boy" but accepts it as a part of himself.

>All 3 of them
>sold 5x more than p4 and 10x more than p3

Attached: smugdog.jpg (540x564, 67K)

>You're the guy who thought ad hominem means the same thing as strawman

Damn, you don't even know what strawman is, either. Bait or no?

That many sold? Damn, it's even more damning now that only 3 people ended up enjoying it

It's the most popular to shit on since it's so terrible but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about popular as in liked

user, jesus christ, I'm laughing whether this is intentional or not. Just tell me you're kidding so I don't have to feel bad for laughing at someone who actually suffers from a mental disability.

Attached: despair but also jerma.png (1366x1185, 1.58M)

Yeah, you really avoided all that masterfully, user. Can't say I've ever left an argument feeling like there was no opposition at all - you were that good and sneaky

>That many sold? Damn, it's even more damning now that only 3 people ended up enjoying it

wow you live in a a bubble dont you
tho its clear that you are nothing more then a shitposter

True, I did post a Persona 5 villain after all

If you insist on being insane then just be insane dude. Don't let me or anyone stop you, it's cases like yours that make me feel better about myself, I'm sure other anons will agree.

ya your a shitposter i cant believe anons actually fell foe your bait tho it was a fun read

>Goro """"betrays"""" the group
>WOW! What a twist! Didn't see that one coming! Lmao pancakes amirite guys?!
>Long cutscene of Akechi and Shido talking about how evil they are
Deep
>In Shido's palace, reveal that ALL the previous villains are connected to Shido
So deep hnngggg
>B-but wait, Shido isn't even the final boss!
Oh oh oh my god I'm cumming!!! Tooo deeeeeep!!! Atlus-kun's dick is making me go crazy!!!

Yeah, the arguments in favor of P5 being well written were just too much for me to handle. Really, you guys give yourselves a pat on the back. Who cares what other people enjoy, am I right? There are some people who like taking shit in their mouths, I ain't gonna judge.

HOW DARE YOU PERSONA 5 WAS A MASTERPIECE IT TOTALLY DID NOT GET EXPOSED BADLY!!!! ffFFUUFUFUFFFFFUUUUUUCKKKKK UUUUUUUUU

cognitive futaba btw

>"Persona 5 will be 3DS exclusive"
>"Persona 5 will be Wii U exclusive"
>Persona 5 announced for PS3 and later PS4
>"P5R will be Switch exclusive"
>P5R teaser starts with PS logo
>"I-It's VR!"
>Persona 5 The Royal confirmed as an RPG and listed as PS4 only on the main site
>"P5S will be a Switch port"
>It's a Musou spinoff
>"W-Wait for E3!"
>ATLUS confirms no plans for Switch port
>"I-It sucks anyways SMTV is coming!"

So, I'm 85 hours in. When does the game get good?

Attached: thinking-face_1f914.png (160x160, 12K)

>SMTV is coming
did thy even hint at anything other then when it was announced ?

me with persona 3

0.02 has been deposited into your account

Never. Don't even bother but some p5 niggers will try to convince you "the good part is just around the corner bro"

>>WOW! What a twist! Didn't see that one coming!
The twist wasn't Akechi betraying you, the twist was that you tricked him into thinking he succeeded.
>>In Shido's palace, reveal that ALL the previous villains are connected to Shido
The player already knows all of these things if they have a brain, the palace just spells it out for retards who weren't paying attention (which is a lot of people based on how many dipshits on Yea Forums miss important plot points when talking about the game).
>>B-but wait, Shido isn't even the final boss!
Also obvious to anyone who has played a Persona game before because they always end with you fighting a god.

I'm not sure what the point of this post was.

thats not even wrong
beware of those with poor impulse control

i wish they would remove social links
shit's boring

Just don't do them. The game is so easy you could probably beat it without any of the social link perks.

then play smt user

>Present nuanced and believable villains with motivations you can empathize with
Yeah I totally symphatize with Bowser and KRool

Wow, you do? Then you'll love Persona 5!!

me too

Attached: 516610-Krool.jpg (1000x562, 103K)

the only good persona games are 2 and 4 the rest are trash

The fact that you unironically think those were even intended to be regarded as "twists" says more about your standards than others'.

>so powerful that he can skip the final boss for you
What's his secret?

devil arcana has a bigger number than death

>The twist wasn't Akechi betraying you, the twist was that you tricked him into thinking he succeeded.
It's a twist superimposed on a twist, which lead it to having no narrative payoff at all. Most people probably expected Goro to betray the group since it's obvious, and so were expecting to out maneuver him somehow. The second twist only works because the game hides all the secret meetings from you until after the fact, and justifies it by saying you were too drugged to recount that specific part of the story during the flashbacks. It was too convenient and told in a very shallow way. Maybe it could have had impac if the player character (and our perspective) was from Goro. But we play Joker, and we get to see the game "win" for us by watching a nice cutscene with no input from us, and no potential for us to fail... unless we betray our friends during the interrogation (which, from the player's perspective, is only tangentially related to the secret plan since it comes down to getting the phone in Sae's hand). If you see this as deep writing, there's an entire library of Scooby Doo mysteries with similar level twists for you to enjoy.
>The player already knows all of these things if they have a brain, the palace just spells it out for retards who weren't paying attention (which is a lot of people based on how many dipshits on Yea Forums miss important plot points when talking about the game).
No fucking duh, of course it was obvious, that's not the point. The point is it subtracted from the previously villains by making it all about Shido.
>Also obvious to anyone who has played a Persona game before because they always end with you fighting a god.
Yea, true.

>Most people probably expected Goro to betray the group since it's obvious, and so were expecting to out maneuver him somehow.
Yes, and the question is how you outmaneuver him.
>The second twist only works because the game hides all the secret meetings from you until after the fact
And? The whole plan to deceive him makes complete since based on what the player knows about the Metaverse at that point. You are explicitly told that the police station isn't affected by Sae's cognition (obvious foreshadowing in hindsight) and you know that the phone is what's used to travel to the metaverse (and the game repeatedly tells you to show Sae the phone, so it must be for a reason related to the metaverse). Someone could undoubtedly piece together the plan if they thought carefully enough about it because all of the pieces were laid out in front of you, but the game placed the mention of the police station and the actual truck using the police station so far apart that MOST people will not have thought about it.

It's very clever actually. You make it sound like it was a huge stretch or messily executed and it wasn't.

>The point is it subtracted from the previously villains by making it all about Shido.
I see what you're saying now. I don't agree, though. Shido is just revealed as the puppetmaster, the shitty people are still shitty people. They were given an option to exploit the Metaverse for their own selfish gain by Shido, and they took it. They're still terrible people, Shido is just revealed as the king of terrible people so that the player gets amped up to take him down.

You keep preaching that 'mature message' famalan.

Attached: 1557850063571.jpg (800x450, 85K)

>empathize with someone like Kamoshida
Kamoshida is based and didn't deserve that shit.
If the sports team members wanted to be shit then they shouldn't have joined the team.
Victory requires sacrifice.

I don't think they're all actually based on specific real people they're just based on kinds of people. The idea was someone like Kaneshiro would be the kind of person a Japanese audience would be familiar with or they may know someone who was a victim to someone like him, or that's how it was to my knowledge at least, I don't think they all have specific analogues to real people.

>Twist(truncated for space)
I don't think the plan is dumb, you are right that it logically fits everything presented. Rather, I am knocking it for the way it is told, specifically in a way that doesn't allow for much input by the player since most of it happens after the fact. The one place we actually can influence the plan relies on a decision that is barely connected, and more comes down to the "don't betray your friends" instead of "what must I say to convince Sae to follow the plan." Sure, you could argue (maybe you are arguing) that if we had more control over the plan, it wouldn't be much of a twist, but my response is why have the twist at all then. Overall, it felt disconnected to me, when the game otherwise at least gives us the illusion of choice in most other circumstances (guess the palace keyword, guess how Sae is rigging the roulette table). I guess the twist would better in an anime instead of a game, if that makes sense.
>Shido(truncated)
I see your point. I think we'll have to agree to disagree, since it comes down to stylistic preferences here.

>Rather, I am knocking it for the way it is told, specifically in a way that doesn't allow for much input by the player since most of it happens after the fact. The one place we actually can influence the plan relies on a decision that is barely connected, and more comes down to the "don't betray your friends" instead of "what must I say to convince Sae to follow the plan."
I have to strongly agree with this. I thought I fucked up the plan because she didn't really seem to have any affect on Akechi when she showed him the phone. I thought I answered the questions wrong. Turns out you can't answer them wrong! Just don't sell out your friends and no dialogue choice from then on will not matter.

That scene would have been far better if you could have failed to convince her to take the phone. I can imagine some people would find it tedious reloading a save and skipping through the dialogue if they failed the first time, but it would at least force the player to piece together the plan and think of the best way to get her to show the phone.

In general, the game is pretty bad with "illusion of choice" stuff like this. I had to look up how to get the bad endings, thinking there were like four different ways to get them, but there's literally only two options that cause the bad ending despite the game throwing seemingly important questions at you.

Outside stealing money, Kaneshiro did nothing wrong.

this villain is okay, he's a yakuza boss wanting money and power, it's good
the worst part was makoto's blunder and stupidity

>the worst part was makoto's blunder and stupidity
Literally the best character development she gets throughout the entire game.