You got blood on my knife, mate

>Bushwacka is fine
I will only agree to this if they bring the old versions of other weapons back, otherwise it's way too strong.
>works with cleaner's carbine
>and buff banner
>and obviously jarate
>can two shot Heavies where they are supposed to have advantage
It's bullshit for a long ranged focused class to be able to delete most classes except for valve's other bullshit favorite - soldier - who also has broken shit.
I didn't mind the broken shit back when everybody had it like the sandman and dead ringer and when afterburn and airblast were actually good, but now they are blatantly better and more versatile than other classes, especially soldier who has almost no bad weapons and nothing nerfed to oblivion, even with black box + conch existing and even black box in the first place. No one else besides medic can HEAL from shots from their RANGED weapon and if any other class had it it would be called out for the bullshit it is, especially when he already has the second highest health in the game.
Snipers are better at ambushing heavies AT CLOSE RANGE than fucking pyro as well because axtingusher extinguishes now.

wtf comp is actually kino Yea Forums lied to me

I hope you don't mean official comp.
Aka wait thirty minutes for a 1v1 with the one other guy playing comp

It's poor game design considering every other class relies on close range combat while sniper can sit in spawn and kill you from across the map just by clicking on you.

Getting good at sniper truly feels good.

After hundreds of hours of getting your shit pushed in by EVERYONE without exception.
But then you start getting good andnyour average position on the leaderboard quickly goes from 12th to 1st. And then you push EVERYONE'S shit in.

Sniper is the funniest character in the game

>*mumbles in pyromaniac*

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>works with cleaner's carbine
And you try and do that, user. It's not actually good at all. Which proves Bushwacka alone is not a problem.
>and buff banner
Which nobody has ever done in the history of mankind, don't be stupid.
Soldier is a frontline class and has to build banners on the frontline, Sniper is a backline class, and Bushwacka is a melee weapon. There's 0 synergy. You would have to sit Soldier in the back all game making him take years to build the banner, and even if you did that, you'd still need to run Sniper all the way to the frontline so he could hit people. Buff Banner+Bushwacka never was, and never will be an issue.

>Snipers are better at ambushing heavies AT CLOSE RANGE than fucking pyro as well
I am agreeing with you that Jarate is a problem, what more do you want?
Considering it has 2x the splash radius of a rocket/sticky, I think its splash radius should be reduced to that of a rocket/sticky.

Is there a bigger sign of a shitter than complaining about Heavy?

complaining about spy

>I am agreeing with you that Jarate is a problem, what more do you want?
I'm just butthurt because pyro, and the entire game, used to be a lot more fun before valve ruined it with nu TF2 match making, updates, and soldier/sniper favoritism (apart from spy movement buff) and medieval mode used to have a lot more options.
Still better than most other games though.

You. Yes, you! You are IIIINCOOOOMIIIIIIIING!

Revert the amby.

muffled "thanks for the help" *thumbs up*

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youtube.com/watch?v=qq8Ux8BZ8Ic

I main Pyro because I find his kit very fun to use, especially with the "Kurt Cobain Special".

>It's poor game design considering every other class relies on single jumping and normal movespeed while scout can move insanely fast and double jump.
>It's poor game design considering every other class is countered by and counters a specific situation while soldier can hold his own in any situation.
>It's poor game design considering every other class cannot directly pushback projectiles and players while pyro can m2 to reflect everything.
>It's poor game design considering every other class relies on seeing their target while demonstrationlitionman can sit in spawn and kill you from across the map just by clicking m2.
>It's poor game design considering every other class relies on dodging to survive while heavy weapons guy can sit in place and kill you while standing completely still eating bullets to the face.
>It's poor game design considering every other class relies on their aiming skills while engineer can sit in spawn and kill you from across the map by letting his aimbot do it.
>It's poor game design considering every other class relies on participating in combat while medic can literally just walk behind the enemy team and occasionally press m2 to win the game for his team.
>It's poor game design considering every other class is visible while spy can go invisible and turn up across the map just by clicking on your back.

Who would have fucking thought it, class based games give unique advantages to each class which no other class has, in order to make playing the classes different.
Bitching about Sniper being a long range class in that regard is moronic. That's his thing, his advantage, just like every other class has an advantage.

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i too main pyro but i have no clue what the kurt cobain special is

My named strange shotgun

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>every other class relies on close range combat
crossbow medic, flare pyro, air strike soldier, wrangled sentry, charged stickies demo, any kritz'd hitscan weapon

Is the joke that he is bad and has no fucking clue what he's talking about?

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i liked abusing the reserve shooter now i just use det or flare gun
rip puff and sting still to this day the best pyro loadout ever

wait, did they play steel in a 6s game

its live now /rglgg

aaaaaaaaaaaaaahahhahahahahah

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b4nny on scout not demo wtf

>forgetting cleaver scout
>forgetting sandman scout
>forgetting wrap assassin scout
>forgetting any soldier rocket
>forgetting bison
>etc
This is you. He obviously means being able to just one shot you. Any non retard sniper trumps all you listed anyway.

time to post named guns?

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Please bring back ball cleaver meatshot 1 shotting heavys

>Any non retard sniper trumps all you listed anyway
>goalposts
The argument was "every other class relies on close range combat", not "there is no other class exactly as good as sniper is at ranged combat".

Show me a class that has a time to kill directly proportional to their ability to aim
and don't say demo because he still has to get close in order to set up those stickies, and has to stare at the ground while shitting out enough stickies to kill an overhealed heavy

I swear this name causes more salt than I think it does.

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Nah, you can forget about that shitter. Get in their face, jump over their head and meatshot them like an actually good scout can, instead of sitting at your spawn cabinet spamming a choke for an hour hoping for a lucky ranged stun.

What your rarest weapon?
for me : a collector spy-cicle, with the professional killstreak , kinda happy since i got everything at random.

fun_down

>Show me a class that has a time to kill directly proportional to their ability to aim
I can do this all day.
>show me a class that has 133% movespeed and an unrestricted double jump that can be used endlessly
>show me a class that can reflect attacks and knock back players and applies a DoT with every attack no matter how good your aim is and doesn't need to reload
>show me a class that has a literal built in aimbot
>show me a class that can go literally invulnerable
>show me a class that can go literally invisible
etc.

Again, being able to dispatch people in 1 shot at range IF you're good enough is Sniper's fucking advantage. A class having an advantage does not automatically make it overpowered or poorly designed.
In your magical theorycraft land all Snipers might land every single headshot, but in practice in both pubs and competitive that's not the way it works.

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So the scouts pistol is as reliable as a fucking sniper rifle? I'm not even the guy that you started this shit with and even I think you are a retard.
Damage at range =/ reliable or decent at range
Engy and Demo have to set up, Solly and Pyro flares can be seen and dodged as they are coming, kritz is not meant for that and is wasted on it, and crossbow can't headshot or oneshot without lucky crits.
They are hardly the same as Sniper who just clicks on your head.

Post items you have that aren't available anymore in any way (trading and selling included.)

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>So the scouts pistol is as reliable as a fucking sniper rifle?
Quote where I said this you fucking dumb cunt? You're the only retard here for making a nonexistent argument to get angry at.

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>at range
A quickscope can delete over half the classes in the game at close range

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I never said otherwise. Now you go ahead and show me how often it actually happens, relative to times where the Sniper gets his ass reamed by a Scattergun, Rocket Launcher, Flamethrower etc.

ew

Name is perfect but the description is unneeded

>Quote where I said this you fucking dumb cunt?
>every other class relies on close range combat
If you are claiming other classes can rely on long range combat you are a fucking retard because the other classes have to set up, have avoidable projectiles, cannot delete people in one shot, etc.
>relative to times where the Sniper gets his ass reamed by a Scattergun, Rocket Launcher, Flamethrower etc.
Oh, so we're counting F2Ps that have played the game once ever in this? Pretty dishonest. Even I, someone who hardly fucking plays sniper, hits a pretty big amount of quickscopes.

this more your speed?

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Raimbow flamethrower

Not really anything notable but I got a strange pistol named Pearl.
It's not the most interesting name, but it's kind of like Pokemon. They ultimately put on the market for pennies, but whoever named it used a nametag and decided they wanted this pistol to be named Pearl and I know it's a goofy kind of sentimentality but I don't think I could change it.

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now this is it

Are you Implying aimbots aren't rampant in literally every server?

>every other class relies on close range combat
That's not the same thing as saying those other options are AS RELIABLE as a Sniper Rifle, gigabrainlet. I never claimed they were AS RELIABLE as a Sniper Rifle.
When you say "So the scouts pistol is as reliable as a fucking sniper rifle?" you are saying something I never said.
In fact the very fucking post you replied to was me saying that I'm not saying any classes are AS reliable as Sniper in long range combat.

Just that there are classes who do not rely on close range combat to be effective. Which is true. Doesn't matter if they need to "set up, have avoidable projectiles, cannot delete people in one shot", they still don't RELY on close range combat.
A Medic with Crossbow doesn't rely on close range combat (in fact it's detrimental to him). A Pyro with Scorch Shot doesn't rely on close range combat. A Demo with charged stickies doesn't rely on close ranged combat. A Engineer with Wrangled Sentries doesn't rely on close ranged combat.
>Oh, so we're counting F2Ps that have played the game once ever in this
So what the fuck are YOU counting? Give your evidence.

>We should balance the game around cheaters existing
How did you even find the post form?

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I'm pretty happy with it.

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I'm still salty it's halloween restricted.

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>A Pyro with Scorch Shot doesn't rely on close range combat
Yes he does, what kind of crack are you on?
>A Demo with charged stickies doesn't rely on close ranged combat
Maybe a retard F2P doesn't, have fun accomplishing fucking anything playing like that you complete fucking moron.
>A Engineer with Wrangled Sentries doesn't rely on close ranged combat
Yes he does, unless they are meming they won't put it in an area where it or they can just be sniped.
>So what the fuck are YOU counting?
Non F2P snipers? People who actually play the game? Don't act like those means you listed are reliable or will even work to even a fraction of the same degree and efficiency a sniper does assuming all players are of equal experience.

rely verb
re·ly | \ ri-ˈlī \
relied; relying
Definition of rely
intransitive verb

1 : to be dependent
the system on which we rely for water
2 : to have confidence based on experience
someone you can rely on.

No sane experienced player would "rely on" or expect a non sniper ranged weapon to accomplish much apart from chip damage or being a minor annoyance.
How is that even rare? I don't even remember how I got mine.

My trusty badge is my only really collector thing. the item isn't collector, the date is.
I know i'm a newfag.

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If i remembers correctly, it was in an halloween cauldron, only given in 2011 and 2012.

reminder valve added this because of a typo someone made (SUMMER SEAL WILL BEGIN SOON???) on the steam forums, back when they were cool

Makes sense.
Also, that reminds me, it makes me butthurt that the lion's share of pyro's cool cosmetics are halloween only.

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You fucking true oldfag, i respect anyone who have this badge.

How do we fix Casual? It's unplayable. Bad players. hordes of snipers and spies. No team play or playing for the obj. Etc Etc.

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Get rid of it and bring back community servers

Nice to see another TGT fan.

Bring back sprays on casual servers.

are you me?

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The problem is not Snipers themselves usually but their teammates protecting them and your lack of teammates helping you

What other cool names are there from TGT?

>relies on single jumping
Way to invalidate your entire post in the first line, retard

play better maps.

high shovel?

>people pay extra money for red colored text
what a world

Taunt interruptions bring me back

>Non F2P snipers? People who actually play the game?
No really, enough joking around, where is your actual evidence other than doing the argumentative equivalent of saying "just google it lol noob"?

>Don't act like those means you listed are reliable or will even work to even a fraction of the same degree and efficiency a sniper does
They can "work to a fraction of the same degree and efficiency", yes.
>No sane experienced player would "rely on" or expect a non sniper ranged weapon to accomplish much apart from chip damage or being a minor annoyance
Wrangled Engineer can shut down entire fucking servers.
>they won't put it in an area where it or they can just be sniped
Wrangler Engineer can and does countersnipe. The Sentry provides cover and the rockets and constant, accurate hitscan shut down the Sniper
>Maybe a retard F2P doesn't, have fun accomplishing fucking anything playing like that you complete fucking moron
Demomen accomplish plenty at long range all the time you complete fucking retard F2P moron.
>le dictionaree
So in other words, a Medic with Crossbow is not "dependent" on close range combat. A Demo with SBL is not "dependent" on close range combat. A Engineer with a Wrangled Sentry is not "dependent" on close range combat.

i.4cdn.org/wsg/1559537752787.webm

I bet it pairs well with a smug_anime_grill. jpeg avatar

Hey Yea Forums,
yore
ugleh

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>"FAGGOT!"

>use scorch shot so sniper doesn't just freely pick off our team
>he equips the croc shield

Sniper is such a poorly designed class. Most other classes can be countered by casual play, but his counter relies on a better sniper.
Its sad that they tried to fix it, but sniper was such a broken concept.

Got it for free user, i was lucky.
also, post your favorite map don't bully me.

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So the problem is your team having bad teamwork in Team Fortress Two.

Sniper and Spy are restricted to premium accounts only. No F2Ps.
Also

Daily reminder that since 2012, the original Ghastly Gibus is collector, it was replaced by the Ghostly Gibus

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Play payload, its idiot proof and always fun.

>explosive jumps and spacebar jumps are the same thing
Don't play dumb.
No other class except Scout can make a free extended jump that costs no ammunition and no health.
Rocket/sticky/sentry/flare/jetpack/trimp jumps cost ammo (yes, charge meter is ammo) and health. QF jumps cost your heal target's ammo and health.

There's so much wrong in this fucking post I don't even know where to begin
>They can "work to a fraction of the same degree and efficiency", yes.
No. No other class can one shot people from across the map with no counters or way of reliable evasion, end of story.
>Wrangled Engineer can shut down entire fucking servers
This literally only ever happens if a team is supporting it stopping any spies, snipers, or demos. And, again, this only happens if the engie is meming. No experienced player would do this and try to win against a team equally as good.
>Wrangler Engineer can and does countersnipe. The Sentry provides cover and the rockets and constant, accurate hitscan shut down the Sniper
Cool fucking beans, but Sniper can just one shot the Engie from another angle with a bodyshot and knowledge of where he and his very immoble sentry is or just quickscope him across the map unless there is a medic giving him overheal
>Demomen accomplish plenty at long range all the time you complete fucking retard F2P moron.
Not from sniper range you fucking mong.
>So in other words, a Medic with Crossbow is not "dependent" on close range combat. A Demo with SBL is not "dependent" on close range combat. A Engineer with a Wrangled Sentry is not "dependent" on close range combat.
They are. Have fun landing crossbows and stickybombs on moving targets from across the map you fucking idiot. Tard Wragler I've already covered, and I think yours needs to do his fucking job.

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>No other class except Scout can make a free extended jump that costs no ammunition and no health
Quick fix medic.
You can go kill yourself and stop shit posting now

>ust that there are classes who do not rely on close range combat to be effective

user the entire game is built around close range. That's why ramp up and fall off exists. Sniper is the only class in the game that ignores this and breaks the game for it. Sniper is heavily balanced by the map hes on.

This is why you balance for casual. Bad teammates shouldn't mean your entire game is shit.

I still love it

Attached: Yikes.png (355x528, 57K)

this sounds like someone that never played against a good sniper. you can harass a sniper all you want, but he'll have a dramatic upper hand on you unless you get close to him. And in most cases you can't.

If you do, they'll bitch that you're targeting him lol.

You too have one? honestly the plush is damn cute, my cat love to sleep with it.

>No other class can one shot people from across the map with no counters
The first part where your post goes wrong. Bonk invuln? Battalion's Backup crit immunity? Scorch/Det/rocket/sticky/grenade splash that can damage Sniper from outside his sightline? Fists of Steel? Sentries, which are naturally crit immune? Stock Medigun and Vaccinator? Fucking Spy's invisibility which IS reliable evasion?
And again, you're STILL making this bullshit strawman that I'm saying at any class can do the exact same things as Sniper, admit it. I didn't say anyone can oneshot people from across the map, I said that other classes can work to a fraction of the same degree of efficiency. You don't have to oneshot classes from across the map to do that.
>No experienced player would do this and try to win against a team equally as good.
So now it's "experienced teams of players" you're talking about?

WHERE is your evidence of Sniper supposedly being overpowered you fucking LARPing theorycrafter? Where is it?

>Quick fix medic.
>QF medic is literally mentioned in the fucking post

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>be me
>7 minutes ago
>be on a 2fort match
>at some point a guy called doggo and something gets angry because we dont let him Tpose
>he calls everyone nigger
>type in chat "cats are master race dogs are niggers and kikes
>everyone in the server goes like "why did you say that" "you don't have the Nword pass" ect
>get voteckiked seconds afther
>mfw

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>The first part where your post goes wrong. Bonk invuln? Battalion's Backup crit immunity

those are soft counters. That's like saying dodging counters sniper. it doesn't stop him from shooting you, it just mitigates it for a time.

>Scorch/Det/rocket/sticky/grenade splash that can damage Sniper from outside his sightline? Fists of Steel? Sentries, which are naturally crit immune? Stock Medigun

all of which require being within range of the sniper and not get headshot.

>So now it's "experienced teams of players" you're talking about?
pretty sure hes saying no experienced engy would try to wrangle against a sniper that he knows can headshot him. Because that would be retarded.

Getting one in yurop was a real struggle
It took over 3 months to receive it
I though I had been scammed

>The first part where your post goes wrong. Bonk invuln? Battalion's Backup crit immunity? Scorch/Det/rocket/sticky/grenade splash that can damage Sniper from outside his sightline? Fists of Steel? Sentries, which are naturally crit immune? Stock Medigun and Vaccinator? Fucking Spy's invisibility which IS reliable evasion?
Those aren't counters, those are just putting off the problem for a scant few seconds until he CAN one shot you.
>And again, you're STILL making this bullshit strawman that I'm saying at any class can do the exact same things as Sniper, admit it. I didn't say anyone can oneshot people from across the map, I said that other classes can work to a fraction of the same degree of efficiency. You don't have to oneshot classes from across the map to do that.
They CANNOT do a fraction of it. Sniper can literally just block you off from using a part of the map, the end, with no set up, no resource cost, no reliable counter, etc. A pyro will slightly annoy me with flares but I can just ignore it in the end and go down my chosen route. I will not enter a good sniper's LoS period because no matter what they can just delete me, especially if they know I'm one of the better players on the team.
I'm fucking done with your stupidity, you reek of sniper main or are just a compete fucking retard.

I hope Valve makes sniper literally unusable one day, same with insufferable soldier retards.

>Bad teammates shouldn't mean your entire game is shit.
But it isn't. Even if you have bad teammates, (which means you're going to lose and no changes to the game can ever alter that), you can still deal with Snipers on your own in a huge amount of ways.
>Sniper is heavily balanced by the map hes on.
True. So is Soldier. So is Engineer. So is Demoman.
>Sniper is the only class in the game that ignores this
Refer to for why "he's the only class in the game that can break this rule!" is a stupid retard argument. It's a class based game. Every class breaks a gameplay "rule" (not that these rules matter anyway if the class ends up balanced, which Sniper is).
>this sounds like someone that never played against a good sniper.
Oh no, I have. I've been utterly shit on by good Snipers and got mad at it.
However, unlike you, I can separate individual personal anecdotes from overall game balance.
In both Casual/Community pubs and 6v6 competitive, when played by human players and not aimbots, Soldier/Scout/Demo and sometimes Heavy and Engineer are just as effective (if not more effective) to winning you the game than Sniper is, and Medic is more effective a class pick than any other class at winning you the game.

Only a retard would look at ~10 games where an amazing Sniper shut down the game and say "wow fucking broken nerf now", while ignoring the 100s of games in the same time period where Soldiers and Demomen shit on them just the same way, Engineers completely stalled the frontline so they lost, and Medics were in the backline being the entire difference between winning and losing.

strange user, i live in france and i got it in 3 weeks.

Forgot to mention that even if one closes the distance with sniper, he still can quickscope, jarate you, jarate bushwacka you, or just run away because he's often sniping in his team's territory

>those are soft counters
Soft counters are still "counters". Go ahead and name some hard counters in TF2.
Protip: If there's any counterplay to something whatsoever, it's not a hard counter.
>all of which require being within range of the sniper and not get headshot
If the Sniper literally cannot see you, he is incapable of headshotting you.

>for why "he's the only class in the game that can break this rule!" is a stupid retard argument

the core game is designed around 2 pips of damage at close range. Everything is about ambushing and then getting the kill.

none of these break that idea, they're just different ways for them to follow this design.
Close combat is the key factor here. Everything in the game is heavilly balanced around this outside sniper.

Thanks.

>you can still deal with Snipers on your own in a huge amount of ways.

no not really, you can deal with enemy sentries on a good team, simply because they're stationary.
A good sniper won't die if hes behind a decent team.

Its a lot easier for a sniper to sitback and be babysat by sentries than it is for a coordinated effort to take all those down at once, at least without uber.

Buff hevi pls

Why the fuck do I love this map so damn much

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>Go ahead and name some hard counters in TF2.

Ubers > sentries
Stickies > sentries
Pyro > spies
Snipers > enemies out in the open

>If there's any counterplay to something whatsoever, it's not a hard counter.
thats absolutely not true. A hard counter can be stopped with better play, but it doesn't prevent it.

>If the Sniper literally cannot see you, he is incapable of headshotting you.
horrible arguement, if anything was unbalanced you would not say "just don't get hit XD" unless you were shitposting.

And you would be hoping the objective is completely concealed from the sniper.

Why no server run cp_egypt anymore it was the map I learned how to play on

>going out in the open as Pyro

you played yourself

>those are just putting off the problem for a scant few seconds until he CAN one shot you
Again, theorycrafter, you're going by this assumption that all Snipers always land their headshots all of the time, which again isn't true in PRACTICE in the REAL GAME.

All of those things mentioned are enough time to get into the Sniper's close range where he is going to be incredibly unlikely to headshot you in the REAL GAME, and you will almost certainly kill him.
>They CANNOT do a fraction of it.
Yes they CAN, because "a fraction" of shutting down part of the map with no setup is shutting down part of the map with a setup.
>A pyro will slightly annoy me with flares but I can just ignore it in the end and go down my chosen route
Yes, I'm sure the Wrangler and its enormous hitscan DPS, aim assist, and rockets too is "just a slight annoyance" and not something that completely locks down a choke for hours even with multiple players working to kill it.
>I hope Valve makes sniper literally unusable one day
And this is why Valve doesn't listen to people like you.
Yes, Jarate is overpowered. Nobody is defending Jarate. Read the thread.
Quickscoping has already been addressed. In the REAL GAME, it is a highly uncommon occurrence relative to the Sniper just dying when someone gets up close.
As for "just run away", a class that's hiding in the backline is equivalent to a dead class for the purposes of defending the objective. TF2 is an objective-based game, not a deathmatch.

>However, unlike you, I can separate individual personal anecdotes from overall game balance.

From the way you word your opinions you seem to think of things in a vacuum, outside of the team working with the sniper to fuck everyone over.

Yes any class can demolish, but they can still be countered immediately by whatever class you're playing. Save sniper. There is no way to respond to a sniper that's hiding behind his team. And unlike a sentry, he can deny more area by moving around freely. He also has 0 falloff, unlike the sentry which fails out in the open.

>I hate the feeling of getting bodied by good snipers and knowing theres nothing I can do about it besides cowering around a corner
>but hes fine lol

On some maps you kind of have to otherwise it ends up like this:
>play 2fort
>have to go under my own sewer everytime I leave my own base or I insta-die
>have to swim through water that limits my effectiveness severely and where there are health packs for enemies near it
Bobbing and weaving sometimes works on the good ones but not often enough to guarantee survival.

Sniper should get minicrits on headshots outside of 1350 hu.

Snipers should just mini crit on quick scopes.

Sniper should instantly kill an ubered heavy just to fuck with people

actually thats pretty good, would lower the ceiling for counter sniping.

>Wtf how sniper kill me he shot in foot???

I wish there was a koth version.

>Ubers > sentries
If the Uber users fail to outdamage the Engineer's tanking the Sentry, then the Sentry can kill them when the uber runs out. This actually happens fairly often in the real game. Not a hard counter.
>Stickies>sentries
Sentries are part of Engineer as a class, and Engineer can hunt down the Demo with his Shotgun if he has better dodging and hitscan aim than the Demo has sticky/pipe aim. Not a hard counter.
>Pyro > spies
Couldn't have picked a worse example, this is a weak soft counter. Spies backstab and gun down Pyros all the time.
>Snipers > enemies out in the open
If the Sniper can't aim well enough to hit the enemy trying to dodge, he will be caught and killed, which happens commonly in the real game. Not a hard counter.

A hard counter is something that ALWAYS beats the other thing, like aircraft with ground attacks being totally invulnerable to anything which doesn't have an anti-air attack in RTS games.
urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hard counter
Semantics are stupid anyway so thanks for dragging me into this argument, but at any rate your definition of "soft counter" and "hard counter" are literally the same thing, meaning there would be no point to having two separate words.
A soft counter is an advantage. A hard counter is an unbeatable advantage. Your definition puts down both as just "an advantage you can beat".
>horrible arguement, if anything was unbalanced you would not say "just don't get hit XD" unless you were shitposting
Your ESL-tier English and strawman argument indicates you're the one shitposting here. If you stand behind cover while using splash damage, the Sniper can't hit you. I've even killed lmaobox aimbots this way before.

>Entire game is made up of mid to close range damage dealers
>Dude lets add a sniper class to the game lmao the sniper seems to be really popular in our other multiplaye game Counter Strike
>Oh and while we are at it lets give him the ability to delete half of the other classes in the game just by scoping in at any range and clicking their heads
He's terrrible. And your a faggot for even trying to imply anyone who doesn't like him is bad.

>From the way you word your opinions you seem to think of things in a vacuum
No, like I said, I think of things in terms of the entire game, and the contribution of all classes in a given match, over the course of multiple matches, across a long period of time. Try reading my post next time.
>And unlike a sentry, he can deny more area by moving around freely
Also unlike a Sentry, Sniper is not an aimbot. He does not fully deny an area with guaranteed damage like a Sentry does, only makes it risky to travel through it-- something any class in the game is actually capable of doing too, just not to the same level.
His whole team can be protecting him and yet he could still miss shots on the guy pushing the cart into the bomb hole in the REAL GAME, where Snipers miss their shots all the time.
> theres nothing I can do about it besides cowering around a corner

>Hit Sniper outside his field of view with arcing projectiles or splash damage which can allow you to attack him while he can't see you.
>Use Bonk to run into closerange.
>Use Jumper weapons to fly at high speed into closerange.
>Use Cowmangler charged rockets which will instakill Snipers from long range.
>Use Fists of Steel, Brass Beast or Shokolad to tank headshots while passing sightlines.
>Use Wrangler to countersnipe the Sniper. If on defense, just hide behind a regular Sentry, he can't crit it.
>Use Vaccinator bullet resist mini-ubers which build incredibly quickly to nullify 75% of his damage and completely block his critical hits.
>Use Spy to literally just walk invisibly to his position and stab/shoot when he scopes.
>Use flank routes to completely avoid the area he's looking at and get into close range.
>Call for Help to bring your hand hitbox above your head hitbox and block a headshot.

I have used all of these in the REAL GAME to beat Snipers who were better players than me. Sometimes even aimbots.

Is everyone forgetting that a cloaked spy can just backstab a Sniper or two-shot him with the Amby if he's using the faggot shield, or has everyone written off Spy as useless already?

>This actually happens fairly often in the real game.
with a wrangler maybe, but if the uber actually makes it to the sentry they just kill the engy and then the sentry.

>and Engineer can hunt down the Demo with his Shotgun
That's not happening if the demo is shooting the sentry from afar. In a real game, the demo will likely blow up the sentry before the engy could even react.

>Couldn't have picked a worse example, this is a weak soft counter. Spies backstab and gun down Pyros all the time
If the pyro is alone possibly. but despite what you likely believe, valve is correct in saying the pyro is the best spy checker. No matter how good a spy you are, a pyro who effectively spy checks will shut you down until hes dead.

>If the Sniper can't aim well enough to hit the enemy trying to dodge, he will be caught and killed,
In a real game, the sniper is on the other side of his team. You don't track him down, hes not using the huntsman.

> like aircraft with ground attacks being totally invulnerable to anything which doesn't have an anti-air attack in RTS games.
sounds like snipers required to shut down snipers. Something that hard counters unless someone brings a counter of their own.

>so thanks for dragging me into this argument,
I never made you write this report.

>Your ESL-tier English and strawman argument indicates
And you're following up with an ad hominum. Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.
> I've even killed lmaobox aimbots this way before.
most likely because they're cocky and just run straight at you. but this is very unreliable in a real game

>>Entire game is made up of mid to close range damage dealers
refer to >>Dude lets add a sniper class to the game lmao the sniper seems to be really popular in our other multiplaye game Counter Strike
Sniper was released in the first build of Team Fortress in 1996 along with Scout, Soldier, Demo and Medic. He's literally older than Counter-Strike.

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That implies that
>no one guarding or near him when he is often next to spawn/backliners like engie
>you aren't spychecked/nobody bumps into you along the way
>he misses the quickscope or jarate/bushwacka
>he doesn't hear the decloak
>he isn't looking around after every unscope
>he doesn't get a lucky crit

Caveat: except the shokolad one, unless you count the time it was glitched in Jungle Inferno and you could get a million HP

POOTIS POOTIS POOTIS POOTIS

>Entire game is made up of mid to close range damage dealers

what you just linked doesn't disprove this retard. All it says is "lol theres exceptions to norms". but the main fucking rule is that everything is close range.

Its up in the air, and that's also switching classes to counter something. Not exactly counter play itself.

It also implies a Spy can reach a Sniper and backstab him before half his team has been headshot.

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>Everything in the first half of the post
As soon as you say "maybe" or "if" or "likely", you admit it's possible to beat the strategy, and that means it's not a hard counter. Something is only a hard counter if it always wins.
For the last one you don't use ambiguous language, so I have to point out that no, Sniper is not always behind his team. Even if he is, you CAN still kill his team. Ergo, not a "hard counter".
>I never made you write this report
Neither of us would have felt like we had to spend time in this argument discussing this tangent about counters if you hadn't started it.
>And you're following up with an ad hominum
You accused me of being a shitposter, I'm simply listing the evidence that you're more likely to be the shitposter than I am.
>but this is very unreliable in a real game
Of course beating cheaters is unreliable. It's simply an extreme indication of the fact Sniper still has some counterplay, even when played inhumanly perfectly.

99.999999991% of people who use this cant aim to save their lives.

I-IT'S NOT FAIR BROS!

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VALVE FIX IT PLEASE

Attached: Babyfaceblaster.png (1908x626, 330K)

I don't get how pyro works, I spend ages burning people and they just turn around and kill me. With other classes I can calculate the damage they took and estimate their health, but as pyro I can hear the sizzing for a full second, get killed, then see on the death can that they're at 75%hp. Of course enemy pyro melt me in one second or melee me from yards away.

>but the main fucking rule is that everything is close range
Literally untrue. Soldier's rockets are functionally infinite range, hitscan is as well. If you're talking damage falloff, Demo's weapons break this rule, as do any minicrits, and Medic's Crossbow. No matter how you spin it, that's not a true statement.
And again:

>but the main fucking rule is that you can only spacebar jump once and can't move at 133% speed
>but the main fucking rule is that your HP doesn't go higher than 220
>but the main fucking rule is that your gun doesn't aim for you
>but the main fucking rule is that you're visible
etc, etc.
It doesn't matter if the """"MAIN FUCKING RULE REEE"""" is broken if the class is balanced. If they designed the game with that in mind, obviously it was never a """""""rule"""""""" in the first place.

>you admit it's possible to beat the strategy,
Anything is beatable if the player is playing poorly. I would never dispute this, there isn't a hard countered that works if the player refuses to play the game.

>Something is only a hard counter if it always wins.
that sounds subjective a hard counter should be nigh guaranteed to kill something, a soft counter should be at a moderate advanatage.

>You accused me of being a shitposter
I said unless you were shit posting. its a non-arguement to incite anger like "lol get gud". I'm pretty sure I can call that shitposting.

> It's simply an extreme indication of the fact Sniper still has some counterplay
like i said though, hes not playing like a sniper if hes moving up ahead of his team. Like a hacking amby spy running and gunning, I wouldn't call that playing spy.

guess the reference

Attached: Screenshot (405).png (525x861, 114K)

That Engineer is a bloody SENTRY

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>Soldier's rockets are functionally infinite range
And they have enormous fall off the further the range.

>Demo's weapons break this rule, as do any minicrits
both of those are considered extremely broken actually Medic cross bow would be broken if it was more reliable and on a better class too.

>
>but the main fucking rule is that you can only spacebar jump once and can't move at 133% speed
>but the main fucking rule is that your HP doesn't go higher than 220
>but the main fucking rule is that your gun doesn't aim for you
>but the main fucking rule is that you're visible

I don't think you understand what main focus means if you are trying to list multiple main focuses. The main focus is ambushing at close range. That's what makes tf2 so balanced. Even if you're a shit shot, you can ambush and get the first hit in and be at a strong advantage.

>entire fucking team minus spy have to respect sightline of one single faggot who can move his mouse and click
>somehow this is okay because MUH MULTIPLE PATHS
It literally never okay for one single class to lock a choke point like that

i always heard it as
yah got blood on my nards, mate

>I would never dispute this, there isn't a hard countered that works if the player refuses to play the game.
If something can be beaten it's not a hard counter. Already been over this.
>that sounds subjective
Language is based on the more widely accepted definition. urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hard counter
>like "lol get gud"
Telling someone they need to improve at the game to beat something is an argument, yes.
>I'm pretty sure I can call that shitposting.
People say it all the time on Yea Forums in a non-shitpost fashion when people do something like complain about not being able to beat Gaping Dragon. When someone needs to get good, telling them to get good isn't a shitpost.
>like i said though, hes not playing like a sniper if hes moving up ahead of his team
The only relevant thing here is that Sniper is balanced in the real game, and there is ample counterplay to him, and even if he's behind his whole team, and your team is rubbish, you can still beat him and them if you're significantly better. That's the only thing that matters in this discussion.

iI got it 6 months ago :^)

/id/dylyinyang if ya want to know

>Language is based on the more widely accepted definition

I would not call urban dictionary "a widely accepted definition". And even in that definition they counter their own point by saying things like "well if the infantry has anti tank it counters it".

>Telling someone they need to improve at the game to beat something is an argument, yes.

Not if the game is flawed or "artificially difficult". If pros such as yourself struggle against good snipers, with no immediate counter play, you would have to admit "getting good" does nothing.

>even if he's behind his whole team, and your team is rubbish, you can still beat him and them if you're significantly better

Well now you're making things up, second off you're saying you have to be significantly better than him. Which means he counters you pretty hard unless hes retarded and his team is non-existent. I'm also willing to bet you only stop him if you take a counter of your own or use a flank (which is the 2nd example of a hard counter).

no one's denying that different classes have different roles. the problem with sniper's role is that his role is *uniquely difficult to counter* in a game composed of checks and balances.
>scout is countered by hitscan and splash damage
>heavy is countered by knowing he exists in a given area
>engineer's sentry is countered by outranging his sentry or outdamaging repairs, which is reasonable in its effective area and DPS
>spy's cloak can be countered with pyro or splash damage
however, sniper requires you to *switch to him* to counter an opposing one. no other class in the game is countered exclusively by itself. it's beyond retarded that you're forced to play as him to keep an opposing one from razing your strictly low to mid range team composition, which just so happens to be 8 out of the 9 classes in the game.

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>And they have enormous fall off the further the range
At absolute max range they can still kill everything with less than 180HP in a clip.
>both of those are considered extremely broken actually
No, they aren't. Neither in casual/community pubs nor in 6v6 competitive play is Demoman overpowered, not since the 2015 nerf.
Soldier, Scout, Sniper and Demo are all on the same tier of viability.
I will admit Crossbow and Medic are overpowered, though.
>The main focus is ambushing at close range.
Who says? Sniper ever existing and continuing to exist to this day is an obvious point that the developers have not agreed with you on this since 1996 when Sniper was first added as part of the core class lineup.

Every class is ALREADY capable of dealing enough damage to kill people off at long range, the only difference with Sniper is he's better at the job. You keep saying Sniper is different, you don't see to be capable of saying why that's a bad thing.
>Even if you're a shit shot, you can ambush and get the first hit in and be at a strong advantage.
Any class can ambush Sniper as well using flank routes. If the map doesn't have flank routes, that destroys your concept of "ambushing" anyway. At any rate, I strongly doubt any TF2 developer would agree with your claim that "ambushing" should be more important than aiming skill to TF2's gameplay.

primeval warrior, also cheater's lament
wish i had the hachimaki it's cute
but i haven't played tf2 ever since it died

>I would not call urban dictionary "a widely accepted definition".
No, you'd put your own personal definition over it, would you? Sit down and shut up if you're not providing a source.
>And even in that definition they counter their own point
No they don't, because regular infantry and antitank infantry are two separate entities. This isn't rocket science.
>Not if the game is flawed or "artificially difficult"
TF2 isn't "artificially difficult".
>If pros such as yourself struggle against good snipers
I didn't say I'm a pro and I didn't say I struggle against Snipers more often than I struggle against the other classes. So the rest of that sentence has no basis as an argument.
>second off you're saying you have to be significantly better than him
Yes, you have to be significantly better than the other players involved if you want to beat the entire enemy team. That's how video games work, chief.
I have gotten past a Sniper's team to kill the Sniper while my team is shit using various strategies many, many times in the past.

it's not that good, mate

he is total ASS to play with or against.
if the sniper is good he turns the whole game into generic fps game
if sniper sucks, he is a deadweight to his team
he is the by far least fun class to play against

>people still cry about sniper being bwoken
>if I headshot one guy I immediately have another sniper gunning for me, three enemies trying to sprint into my hiding spot, a full-time spy main ruining my life and one teammate votekicking me for "hacking"

Get over yourselves. Stop running in straight fucking lines.

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>however, sniper requires you to *switch to him* to counter an opposing one
No he doesn't, read the thread before posting.
>Use hitscan to flinch and chip down the Sniper.
>Hit Sniper outside his field of view with arcing projectiles or splash damage which can allow you to attack him while he can't see you.
>Use Bonk to run into closerange.
>Use Jumper weapons to fly at high speed into closerange.
>Use Cowmangler charged rockets which will instakill Snipers from long range.
>Use Fists of Steel, Brass Beast or Shokolad to tank headshots while passing sightlines.
>Use Wrangler to countersnipe the Sniper. If on defense, just hide behind a regular Sentry, he can't crit it.
>Use Vaccinator bullet resist mini-ubers which build incredibly quickly to nullify 75% of his damage and completely block his critical hits.
>Use Spy to literally just walk invisibly to his position and stab/shoot when he scopes.
>Use flank routes to completely avoid the area he's looking at and get into close range.
>Call for Help to bring your hand hitbox above your head hitbox and block a headshot.

>No, they aren't.
Demo is considered the most powerful class.
Minicrits are constantly banned from comp.

>not since the 2015 nerf.
wait isn't that the sticky timer thing that got reverted like a week later?

>Who says?
iirc the developers in the commentary actually.

>Sniper ever existing and continuing to exist to this day is an obvious point that the developers have not agreed with you

Actually the developers lament at the design of the sniper and consider him a necessary evil to counter heavy. They tuned him WAY down from tfc because they knew his skill ceiling was ludicrous.

>Every class is ALREADY capable of dealing enough damage to kill people off at long range
No where near enough to fight a sniper. in most equal situations the fight is 2-3 hits before you kill your enemy. Fighting someone means you need to pull that off, if you can't kill a sniper in 1.5 seconds you're not fighting him, you're simply harassing.

So many seething replies to this post, none of which have any good reasoning whatsoever other than "I can't beat him when my team is useless and his whole team is good", prove how fundamentally true it is.

Why did you ignore my point where I used your source to prove you wrong?

> I'm also willing to bet you only stop him if you take a counter of your own or use a flank (which is the 2nd example of a hard counter).

All of these are mitigations which don't stop him or prevent him from killing you. They're also heavilly dependent on the map and the opponents aim.

in most scenarios surviving a sniper is if the sniper can click on you or not.

And none of these allow you to fight him, simply mitigate his threat. theres no back and forth here.

why is homer sucking cock?

>enter a casual match
>soldier+medic pocket spawncamping my team
>spectating them shows them clearly watching everyone through walls
>enter a different match
>army of spinbot snipers locking my team in spawn
>enter a different match
>another aimbot who never misses a headshot
>enter a different match
>spy who I can only assuming is hacking as he walks directly into my face, "backstabs" me and does the same to my entire team
>enter a different match
>it's the soldier+medic walls game again

Fuck balance, get anticheat that actually works

Attached: 1545573485203.png (1093x669, 1.2M)

Just stop user. He doesn't fucking get it. He lives in some loopy wonderland where snipers are dumb enough just let you set up a sentry to counter shoot them and where the sniper has no teammates near them whatsoever.

epic :D

Honest to god this, what the fuck is going on lately. I think someone got mad at valve for banning cheaters and slowly curbing them, now they're taking this pitty revenge crap out on them.

What did you expect for a free Valve game?

I just realised why premium players getting sniper and spy only is a good idea.

>Call for Help to bring your hand hitbox above your head hitbox and block a headshot.
holy fucking shit. serveral thousand hours into this game, and I have never given this a thought

>Demo is considered the most powerful class.
Medic and Scout are ever since the med tether speed buff, actually. A 185HP buffed Scout in the hands of a good player shits on everything, since the 2015 nerf Demo can no longer control the high ground, which means he instaloses to Scouts. Demo hasn't been considered "most powerful" for 4 years. You're talking out of your ass now and regurgitating outdated information.
>Minicrits are constantly banned from comp.
whitelist.tf/esea_6v6_s29 seeing a hell of a lot of minicrits on here (or full crits which break the """"""falloff rule"""""" even more). FoW, Buff Banner, CM5K, DH, every Pyro primary, every Pyro secondary, Loose Cannon, Frontier Justice, Kritzkrieg, cleaner's carbine, diamondback. All legal.
>wait isn't that the sticky timer thing that got reverted like a week later?
Why do you post about a game's balance that you don't understand? One enormous damage rampup nerf was added in 2014 that made Demo completely unviable in comp, people complained, it was replaced in 2015 by an arm radius nerf that kept him viable but no longer the strongest.
>iirc the developers in the commentary actually
Link it. I've played through every dev commentary.
>Actually the developers lament at the design of the sniper and consider him a necessary evil
Not supported anywhere in the text of the actual commentary. You're pulling things out of your ass. wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gravel_Pit_developer_commentary\
>No where near enough to fight a sniper.
That wasn't the argument.
You said "the main focus of the game is ambushing at close range", I posted that every class can still fight at long range in some capacity to show you Sniper is no different in that regard other than being better.

So your "rule" doesn't work. Not that your "rule" is relevant anyway.

It's really rare that it even does anything to stop it, you have to be really lucky with the timing.

>Why did you ignore my point where I used your source to prove you wrong?
I replied to that, you gibbering idiot?
>(which is the 2nd example of a hard counter).
A flank is not a hard counter.
It works but you have to be aware of the Sniper first or constantly calling for help otherwise. Can also be useful to mask Uber.

>WOT
>IS THAT?

>good sniper joins enemy team
Bye fun

Tell me, where did we go so wrong?

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>Now all these retards complaining about Sniper will drive people away from the game because MUH P2W GAME SNIPER OP AND YOU HAVE TO BUY TO PLAY HIM
Can't see it ending well.

Maps make him fucking bullshit in a highlander setting, as an instant off the top of my head answer. When a class can only be countered by his own class, there's a problem, and the fact you're ignoring this suggests you're mentally deficient

>he cant deflect a crocket into the medic or soldier
This is why you have M2 m8

The first axtinguisher nerf was an omen of things to come

>FoW, Buff Banner, CM5K, DH, every Pyro primary, every Pyro secondary, Loose Cannon, Frontier Justice, Kritzkrieg, cleaner's carbine, diamondback. All legal.
Gonna preface by saying that minicrits on hitscan weapons are different than minicrits on projectiles. Projectiles can be dodged, the skill ceiling for that is low enough that pros don't have to worry.
well in order, FoW requires you to be close.
Buff banner isn't banned, because comp fags don't ban overpowered medic/soldier upgrades. (its also not really viable when its giving up shotty/gunboats).
CM5K should be banned actually, I think the list you're reading is wrong, they banned it because it could be spammed down hallways for free.
DH, got nerfed pretty heavily that the minicrit is pretty much useless in any situation where it would matter in comp.
Every Pyro primary,
Phlog lacks airblast, which hampers pyro.
every Pyro secondary,
projectiles which are fairly weak already so a critted flair isn't that dangerous.
Loosecannon no idea on that one, probably cause the pipes are better and the minicrits wouldn't kill anyone.
frontier justice. that's an interesting one to be fair, its probably cause the rescue ranger is mandatory.
Kritzkrieg, never going to ban medic shit, its also dropping uber.
cleaner's carbine, like flair gun the damage is so low I don't think it would ever matter.
diamondback, willing to bet that gets banned soon, its likely just a consolation prize for comp spy mains that can't use amby. as its the only way to counter a razorback sniper.

>A flank is not a hard counter.
I did not say it was. requiring a soft counter to counter a hard counter implies its a hard counter.

thats why he has a shotgun.

>in a highlander setting
A highlander setting?
You mean that setting where you literally can't change class and all classes are present at all times in all situations, creating a completely different environment to the 6v6 and pub game, and thus not being indicative of game balance at all?

In competitive 6v6, Sniper is less impactful than Scout, Soldier, Demoman and Medic. In pub casual/community servers, Sniper is frequently less impactful than Soldier, Demoman, Engineer, Heavy and Medic. Who gives a shit if he's a problem in Highlander? Its community balances itself. It will never be a viable comp format, due to its playercount being too high. You probably don't even fucking play it, like 99.99% of the TF2 playerbase.

Why would anyone balance the game around that?

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Then switch to a huntsman sniper and be cheeky
Or just get a kritzkrieg medic and a soldier or heavy or something

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degreaser needed a rework, not the axestinguisher.

In fact degreaser is getting a lot of traction again, pyros are using it with flames+shotgun to almost instantly deal 200+ damage. fucking absurd.

>Or just get a kritzkrieg medic and a soldier or heavy or something
not really happening in pubs.
>Then switch to a huntsman sniper and be cheeky
Not him but Implying I'm not already playing huntsman

>You mean that setting where you literally can't change class and all classes are present at all times in all situations, creating a completely different environment to the 6v6 and pub game, and thus not being indicative of game balance at all?

changing classes isn't a counter, that's like going medic because your team doesn't have a medic/lacks a good medic.

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Then uh
Dead ringer spy

>Dead ringer spy
I think he said hes using wallhacks.

>requiring a soft counter to counter a hard counter implies its a hard counter.
That's circular logic. Nowhere have you established that Sniper is a hard counter.
>Gonna preface by saying that minicrits on hitscan weapons are different than minicrits on projectiles
And that argument falls apart completely with the kritzkrieg, buff banner, carbine, diamondback.
>because comp fags don't ban overpowered medic/soldier upgrades
Actually, they do. That's why Disciplinary Action, Quick-Fix, Reserve Shooter, and Solemn Vow are banned, and why Vita-Saw used to be banned too until Valve nerfed it. Talking out your ass again, chief.
>projectiles which are fairly weak already so a critted flair isn't that dangerous
Crit flares do 90 damage at any range on the second, third, fourth hit. What was your argument trying to prove again?
>diamondback, willing to bet that gets banned soon
Even in the ban-happier leagues it's not banned lmao you idiot. It hasn't been banned for years now. Why would they do it now exactly? Where is this "bet" coming from, your ass?
>frontier justice. that's an interesting one to be fair, its probably cause the rescue ranger is mandatory.
Rescue Ranger is B A N N E D, you didn't even look at the list and you think you can keep posting?
Seriously stop talking dude, every word you're putting to post is falling right out of your ass.

Are you even reading my post? I didn't even say anything about changing classes as counter, I'm talking about how having all classes present at all times no matter the situation of the map creates a completely different gameplay situation to 6v6/pubs. Therefore you can't use Highlander to make balance conclusions about 6v6/pubs. It's a joke gamemode.

>That's circular logic. Nowhere have you established that Sniper is a hard counter

being required to defeat him with soft counters of your own means hes unbeatable without them.

>Therefore you can't use Highlander to make balance conclusions about 6v6/pubs. It's a joke gamemode.

you can't about 6s, but you can make modest conclusions for pubs.
if everything is equal in representation and hard counters, and something still stands out ontop, you can make a pretty basic assumption. in fact the only difference is that in pubs more people would be required to switch to counter them.

can I get a r8 on this cap

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>being required to defeat him with soft counters of your own means hes unbeatable without them
A soft counter is any loadout with an advantage against another loadout. A hard counter is any loadout with an unbeatable advantage against another loadout. (This does not exist in TF2).

Sniper has an advantage against every class when he is at long range, this is why you need a soft counter to beat him at long range.
If you use flank routes as any class, you are at an advantage against him. And then your argument would be turned against you: you would be saying every class is a hard counter too, because sniper "needs soft counters" to beat other classes when they are in close range.

The truth of the matter is no class in TF2 is a hard counter. Every advantage can be overcome if the disadvantaged party has more skill, without having to swap class or get someone else to help you.

not
>Meatshot 8)

>but you can make modest conclusions for pubs.
No, you can't. Highlander is not like pubs. Pubs are 12v12 and you can have any combination of classes to suit the map situation. Highlander is 9v9 and you are always forced to run 1 of each class no matter the situation, regardless of whether anyone would actually do so in pubs. Apples and oranges.

It would also be incredibly stupid to look at Highlander for balance conclusions on pubs instead of just LOOKING AT PUBS. In which Soldier, Demo, Engineer, Heavy and Medic are far more often bigger factors to winning the match than Sniper is.

POOTISPOW HAHA

>A hard counter is any loadout with an unbeatable advantage against another loadout.
being in the open is hard countered by snipers.
its then soft countered by flanks.

>Sniper has an advantage against every class when he is at long range, this is why you need a soft counter to beat him at long range.
But you don't beat him at long range, you simply jank his aim and hope he misses. You don't kill snipers at long range.

>And then your argument would be turned against you: you would be saying every class is a hard counter too
their loadout isn't necessarily getting through flanks with ease, the only one that comes close is spy, who is at a strict disadvantage if the sniper is near a sentry.

>The truth of the matter is no class in TF2 is a hard counter. Every advantage can be overcome if the disadvantaged party has more skill, without having to swap class or get someone else to help you.

except being far away from a sniper.

>In which Soldier, Demo, Engineer, Heavy and Medic are far more often bigger factors to winning the match than Sniper is.

Balance isn't about winning its having fun.
A casually balanced game is balanced that everyone independent of skill level has a good shot at things.
A competitive balanced game is assuming everyone is pro-level, and is balanced around winning being as even as possible. Mostly involving two perfectly equal teams and scenarios.

Just lay your weapons down and Place a dispenser here.

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>being in the open is hard countered by snipers.
No it isn't, because you can beat it with soft counters, and anything you can beat is not a hard counter. And your definition of "anything that needs a soft counter is a hard counter" is accepted by nobody else.
>You don't kill snipers at long range.
Read the thread, retard. Flares, rockets, stickies and grenades, crossbow bolts (can 2shot a sniper), wrangler rockets, Cow Mangler charged rockets that 1shot snipers, kritzkrieg.

Also, you don't even need to kill the sniper to beat him. You just need to survive long enough without him killing you to cap the objectives. TF2 is an objective based game, not a deathmatch.
>their loadout isn't necessarily getting through flanks with ease
Who said anything about "ease"? If you can beat something at all, it's not a hard counter. Simple as that.
>except being far away from a sniper
You are far away from a Sniper, hiding behind a payload cart. He literally cannot damage you, and you literally cannot damage him. You push the cart into the hole. You win.

Stop wasting my time repeating arguments I've already shut down. If you do it again, I'm just going to take it as an admission from you that your argument is wrong and should be ignored.

>No it isn't, because you can beat it with soft counters
that doesn't disprove its a hard counter, that's how you defeat a hard counter, with another counter.
>and anything you can beat is not a hard counter.
rock is beatable by scissors, is it not a hard counter to paper because of this?

>And your definition of "anything that needs a soft counter is a hard counter" is accepted by nobody else.
urban dictionary second example.
>2) In most strategy games, tanks will hard-counter infantry without anti-tank weapons. A rifleman with an M1 stands no chance whatsoever against a Kraut riding the MG42 on top of a Tiger.

>Also, you don't even need to kill the sniper to beat him. You just need to survive long enough without him killing you to cap the objectives. TF2 is an objective based game, not a deathmatch.

Hes still killing your teammates and your medics.

>He literally cannot damage you
Fake news spread by people that think sniper is balanced. Even if you crouch behind a cart he can still headshot you. I've tested this multiple times.
>and you literally cannot damage him.You push the cart into the hole. You win.
by doing this you allow his team to easily kill you, if you try to fight them you allow the sniper to kill you.

>Stop wasting my time
same senpai

All of you are DOCTOR!

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tf2 engine is ancient as fuck and easily cheated on
go to a community server if you want no cheaters, anti-cheat is a meme

MyM ruined the game

>caring about comp

You are a maggot hatched from a mutant PAINIS
>*schadenfreude*

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Meet your Match

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The razorback is such a fucking stupid unlock

>"just shoot the sniper lmao"
>sniper is guarded by 3 sentries

>Balance isn't about winning its having fun.
Balance exists so people don't have to pick something they don't enjoy playing if they want a good chance at winning.
If you don't have to play Sniper to have a good chance at winning the round in pubs, it's a balanced class. This is a class and team based objective based game, not a deathmatch.
>is it not a hard counter to paper because of this?
Don't play dumb. Rock, scissors, and paper are all separate entities. I was obviously saying that if something has an advantage against another thing but that advantage can be beaten, then it is not hard countered. Third parties don't factor into that.

If I wanted to play dumb like you just did, I would point out that you just said "rock is beatable by scissors".
>Hes still killing your teammates and your medics
And if he doesn't, which is possible, then he loses, and he's not a hard counter.
>tanks will hard-counter infantry without anti-tank weapons
"Infantry without antitank weapon" and "Infantry with antitank weapon" are two separate entities, retard.
>Even if you crouch behind a cart he can still headshot you
Wrong. Every class' hitbox crouched behind a cart is fully covered. You are lying or uninformed.
>same senpai
Only you are wasting both our time here by regurgitating the same shit arguments that have already been refuted.

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Rate my pyro

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Probably the update that turned demo man into a melee class
Game was fucked Waaaaaaay before this. I think Mann vs Machine was the nail in the coffin.

Nah, the game is still great, and the pre-mvm era had plenty of issues of its own that are fixed today.

>If I wanted to play dumb like you just did, I would point out that you just said "rock is beatable by scissors".
it is because you can also use scissors instead of paper.

>And if he doesn't, which is possible, then he loses, and he's not a hard counter.
Which only stops happening if hes bad.

>"Infantry without antitank weapon" and "Infantry with antitank weapon" are two separate entities, retard.
They're both infantry, they're only conveniently not because you don't want them to be.

>Wrong. Every class' hitbox crouched behind a cart is fully covered. You are lying or uninformed.
I've seen aimbotters and had aimbotters kill people crouching behind carts. there is a slight area where they can the box protrudes from behind it.
You also never refuted my point about the team closing in on you while you hide behind the cart. Honestly this is where your entire arguement falls apart. you make up these vacuum scenarios where you can harass snipers and hurt snipers while the enemy team is dealing with you.

>Only you are wasting both our time here by regurgitating the same shit arguments that have already been refuted.
actually playing tf2 inbetween responding desu.

>Game was fucked Waaaaaaay before this

Valve hiding community servers was the FINAL nail in the coffin. That was when valve went from ruining the game to actively sabotaging it.

Ja

>actively sabotaging it.
Pretty sure that was Mann-Conomy update / Lootbox update

all players' fun is ruined regardless when a sniper joins

why don't they use dead ringer spy in comp on last point?
stickies go off, but spy never stops capping

maybe, but hiding community servers was just a dick move

Mannconomy was a kneecap, Meet Your Match was the bullet to the head.

unlike bonk scouts you can catch up with them.

>it is because you can also use scissors instead of paper.
Yep, you repeated an argument I already completely refuted. Don't need to read any more posts from you after this, I already said if you did it again it would be an admission you're wrong.

It was also 6 (six) years later.

>a kneecap
>actively sabotaging
No, that bundle of F2P/monetization updates taken together was what kept the game alive well beyond the lifespan of a normal game.
If TF2 hadn't gone F2P with its further development funded by hats, it would not be alive today. Before it went F2P, its playerbase was hitting 24-hour peaks of 9,000 people.

Yes and it was worse than any other update.

>had this at one point
>crafted it
Did the same with my proof of purchase hat

I never even realized it was rare until today. I think I might have even just deleted it instead of crafting it. Fuck.

Based and correctpilled

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You're missing the point. It was no longer TF2 after that update.

Lesson is never deleted/
Craft your tf2 items because it could be valuable.
You literally can’t get the poker night items anymore.

Nah, it was still Team Fortress 2 the class-based team-based objective-based first person shooter after mannconomy, and still is. Take your no true scotsman shit somewhere else, Kaplan.

based

right and retail wow is the same as wow classic

>Why is soldier so good?
tier s: medic
tier a: defense heavy/engie
tier b: scout, soldier, sniper, demo
tier c: spy/pyro
tier d: offense heavy/engie
not seeing a problem with soldier's placement in the grand scheme of things here.
if he goes even with demo, scout, sniper that makes him balanced. it's actually pyro/spy that are unbalanced (underpowered), but soldier is a balanced class.

they're only called different things because everyone chose to call them different things. but tf2 has no such thing, so tf2 is still tf2.

if you want to get down to semantics you're going to lose, because what everyone calls the game today is team fortress 2.

>no one knows that best way to counter sniper is to get close with rocket jumping, sticky jumping and with other classes strafing like autistic person to get close

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>valve nerfs the cabre cause shit like this

Give it extra damage against snipers only and it's fair.

Market Gardener does the exact same thing if you're not shit at life.

>>no one knows that best way to counter sniper is to get close with rocket jumping, sticky jumping
I know that it isn't a good counter because I've been shot by many snipers worth their salt while mid-air, repeatedly. Knockback, combined with the fact you're already trading health to jump will fuck up most of your jumps.
>>and with other classes strafing like autistic person to get close
This and explosive jumping (due to aforementioned reasons) fail the very moment the sniper has a single attentive team member on a pick class. It is so easy for a scout or spy to to whittle you down together with the sniper, and soldier can just as easily bomb you or rocket jump toward the friendly sniper to deny you any fighting chance.

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If a game is vastly different in 2019 than it was in 2008 is it really the same game?

the base gameplay and controls are the same. the only changes that differentiate the game now are the addition of class unlocks, and new maps.
balance changes haven't changed the way we play stock classes. for example, stock demo in 2008 functions the same now. the same thing can be said for sniper and basically every other class.
basically it's still the same game, whether you like it or not.

Ship of Perseus mate. And the answer's yes, if people still call it the same game and it still calls itself the same game and it still has all the fundamental components of the original, it's still TF2
Your body replaces all its cells every 10 years, we still call you user