How would you change mage classes in RPGs so they are actually fun to play instead of feeling like you never have...

Blood Magic

I like how in WoW, most classes have moves to restore their mana/energy level to round out the rotation. I think it would be fun in a single player game, like have some abilities that actually restore mana

games are too simple to convey the depth and power of the mage. Should a mage class exist, it should require the intelligence, devotion, and mastery of said class. That way, literal geniuses can wield awesome destructive powers, while fledgling mages might manage a fireball or two.

>games are too simple to convey the depth and power of the mace. Should a mace class exist, it should require the intelligence, devotion, and mastery of said class. That way, literal geniuses can wield awesome destructive powers, while fledgling mages might manage a smash or two.

you have to program the spells on the fly

that google haloween game with the cat. drawing spells like that was more fun mage gameplay than basically any other game i've seen. you really feel like you were casting spells

So Arx Fatalis?

I was thinking programming like C or Ruby or something.

So Arx Fatalis, but like, really long strings?

haha, it was mostly a joke answer. sure, like Arx Fatalis, but like, really long strings.

>haha

this is how i feel in most games with multiple classes
combat:
>extremely easy to use
>basically just get a big weapon and bash enemies in
>dont have to worry about resources. even in games with weapon degredation its pretty harmless to repair them every once in a while
>since you're not constantly spending money on spells or mana potions you can just easily buy health potions for your health
magic:
>often pretty annoying, requires a lot more focus for smaller reward
>most of your spells seem weaker in comparison to just an attack from a weapon
>have to endlessly worry about mana, always running out

Its just annoying overall. Mage classes are often more of a chore whereas combat classes are more breezily enjoyable. When I play mage I feel like I'm always made of glass and always running away to recharge mana

Casting a spell actually requires more than a few dozen gameplay hours of training, and reaching to the point where you can cast a fireball should feel like an incredible feat. Of course, these fireballs should do a huge amount of damage, mostly instakilling mid/high level enemies. And it goes from there... imagine being able to cast a thunderstorm that one shots everything and is even able to take down an entire city, but not before having spent like 120 hours of training. This would have a purpose for magic classes to actually "seek for knowledge"

hoho hehe

What games, most RPGs have different damage types for weapons.

all mage classes in RPGs do is make magic mundane, generic, and uninteresting.

Neverwinter fucking Nights

There's a Minecraft mod that did this, using programmable spell bullets from some anime.

That is completely and utterly retarded.
>you can’t use a sword before dozens of hours of playing
>swinging a sword should be a huge feat, but that swing can instakill mid/high level enemies
>after 120 hours you can swing the sword in circles and just slaughter entire cities
>this would have a reason for melee classes to “train for combat”

we need a game to demonstrate how really powerful are us the magical users we need to Rise Up against those str brainlets and destroy dex fags

>summoning fire from nothing should be the same as striking with a sword
I'm not sure if that's bait or not, but you're retarded wither way, so... yeah, have your (you)

By making mages actually work magic instead of just shooting energy based on some arbitrary level experience.

>Casting spells requires a verbal, somatic and material component in order to work the magic. You must type in the correct magical words to pronounce, draw the correct symbols on screen and have collected the correct ingredients in order to successfully cast the spell.
>Start off knowing nothing. Must engage in research to learn the correct way to cast a particular spell. For instance by collating information from different sources, tomes in the library, glyphs carved on the walls of hidden tombs, extracts from other spellbooks.
>Once the correct formulae has been deduced you must repeat it precisely each time or the spell may fail or misfire. You can experiment with slight variations on one or all of the components and observe the different effects.
>Allows for the possibility of discovering new spells and altering existing ones. You spellbook functions as a large notepad where these experiments can be recorded and the results displayed.
>More advanced magic must be layered and prepared in advance. For instance summoning a demon may require enchanting a ritual circle a particular way and burning special herbs which have had special blessings cast on them.
>Multiple factors go into the potency and success of a spell such as its location, the phase of the moon and planetary alignments, the weather and season of the spellcasting.
>You grow in power gradually as the magic you weave starts to affect you phsically which rather than giving you XP or more mana imbues you with strange traits such as better nightvision or an unnatural hardiness to the elements.

In short, make it so that there is an actual method and experience behind learning and casting spells. Put back in the mystery and wonder of discovering an ancient tome or summoning an ancient spirit to learn the location of a lost artifact. Make magic actually magical.

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mages don't work as a class. they will never be balanced because mages are supposed to be powerful. if you have to balance a fireball so that it averages out the same as a sword then it's fucked from the start.

more or less this. Balancing magic and melee is hard and most games fuck it up

Explain to me why you think a ball of fire should kill you faster than an axe to the head.

Why did you make the same thread again after the last one failed

just make it like Diablo 2.

basically every class is effectively a magic user with spells (abilities)

magefags are eternally butthurt they get mogged by melee chads in every game

what do you mean? i dont understand what programming spells on the fly would look like. can you give an example?

For the same reason a bomb would instakill you if close enough... of course this depends on the power of the fireball, but since the thing makes contact with the target, the force of the impact is extremely effective
Any fire ball that is small enough to do nothing against armor, or any decent protection, shouldn't even count as an offensive spell
Magic should be a great deal, not something you use from lvl 1

In the mod you have a grid that you lay out effects and connect them by various impact methods and traits. For example, a spell bullet that fires at a range of 30 blocks, leaves a trail of fire, and removes gravity for whatever it hits.

i haven't a clue. but something that's personalize. you see in D&D things like "Tensors" transformation and stuff. This would imply that people are making their own spells all the time. However, all we see if magic missile, fireball, sleep generic mundane spell after spell all the time. I understand that's not that feasible in videogames, but in something like tabletop...

Gothic is a decent example I guess.
Very basic for what user wanted probably, but probably a good start.

>t. never played skyrim

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>if you have to balance a fireball so that it averages out the same as a sword then it's fucked from the start.
It’s only fucked because the sword is fucked, and the sword is fucked so your characters don’t get killed within 6 seconds of combat.
How many sword strikes do you think it takes to kill a powerlifter? Protip: it’s not 20

Besides that, mages are not fucking “powerful”, they’re just scary and unpredictable.
In every story with a wizard, there’s a pleb with a sword that kills it. And mages are far more often dangerous because they command demons or giant snakes or some other shit that is physically stronger than you.
Mages in person are just the guns of the fantasy setting.
You know you can stick him if you get close, but you don’t know whether you can get close before he turns you into a frog or something.

>You must type in the correct magical words to pronounce
i love mechanics like this

Destruction is total dogshit in skyrim, literally all you can do with it is get the dualcast stagger perk, enchant 100% cost reduction gear and spam fireballs until you fall asleep. Everything else is worthless.
Absolute waste of a magic system.

>Be mages guild
>Sign agreement not to make magical equipment for non-magical peasants
>Have all kinds of magical defenses that meleecucks can't deal with

Lots of D&D spells are feasible in vidya. Play NWN.

You did not answer the question, I asked what is the reason you believe a fireball kills you faster than an axe to the head.

Give the mage basic spells that don't cost mana, just like a fighter has basic attacks. Make fireball and lightning bolt the normals. Dragons Dogma did this, so did LotR Conquest

that's a good idea. never played those games, but now i kind of want to

yeah, the generic and defined ones. magic should be less like that, imo. no one should be able to find spells, you should have to create them yourself.

because you need to actually get in head cleaving range while the mage throws out volleys of fireballs

>thow light orb at others
>They shine for a moment and then ragdoll
Oblivion nostalgia was a mistake

>be bakers’ guild
>sign agreement to poison all mages so you can make bread in peace
>have all kinds of bagels that mages can’t resist

... you don't know why an explosion may kill you?
ok, the impact caused by the fireball's mass and velocity instantly explodes, generating a force against the opponent which when accelerated quickly loses its ability to hold his limbs

Dragons Dogma is a true classic, LotR cornquest is just a Battlefront clone and the online died three months after release but its actually pretty fun. Its main drawback is that FUCKING EVERYTHING knocks down and you have to mash to get up.

Are you being retarded on purpose?
You said a fireball should instakill high level enemies. I am asking you what makes you believe an axe to the head shouldn’t do the same exact thing.
Would you like to reformulate that as an arrow to the head instead so your autism is sated?

helmets

There is literally no mechanical difference between what happens with an explosion and what happens with a physical strike of an axe, faggot. Both seperate your mass on a molecular level.
Further, since you’re being an autistic faggot, fireball deals fire damage, not kinetic/physical damage, so it is not in fact an explosion, but a magical field of fire.

BASED

Helmets protect against explosions, retard.

>Mages were most fun in Oblivion
Hahaha, what a fucking pleb. Oblivion's magic system was literally a downgraded version of Morrowind's

Morrowind's was more fun. The only exception was the army of darkness, but that was a bug.

>Levitate an entire town
>Get them all to follow me into the sky
>Spell wears off and they all fall to their death

Obliviplebs will never know this feeling.

Also, Skyrim's magic system was better than Oblivion's. At least it was a step forward instead of a step backwards.

This seems like the answer, but no one seems to want to do it. I'd love some sort of game where you are purely a mage with different trees like full necro, or time mage, elementals...etc.

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Magic should be something everyone is capable of to some extent. Being a dedicated mage who is almost always some frail defenseless fuck otherwise is fucking dumb. Everyone picks up a number of tricks they can have in their back pocket. Even D&D makes taking a level of Wizard seem like you only need a month or two of training to get some cantrips as long as you are not a blithering idiot. Being limited to a pure single class is absolutely retarded (class systems are retarded period), nobody does that shit.

Another massive detriment to magic is that nearly all games are focused entirely on combat and not the overwhelming utility magic should have in every day activities and other kinds of problem solving. Magic should have a lot more functional uses than just throwing fireballs, otherwise it's just a different flavor of an archer or some guy throwing molotovs.

I really want a game where I take over the world as an evil lich, conquering territory and defending it with my skeletal army as I rain spells from the battlements of my forts while paladin armies try to retake the land I've claimed.

>no one seems to want to do it
Because you’re making an entire game for a fraction of the audience it would get if you just made it possible to hit people with a stick.

Dangerous magic / Friendly Fire / Difficulty

>explosions you cast near you harm you and allies
>Summons who may turn on you or have no master (i.e. Demons)
>Enemies who can intercept heals
>reagents
>no free lunch - (no point & click damage)
>Remove "Fire & forget", this makes it no better than a fucking gun, however if you want to have such things you would need resources to do so, i.e. scrolls that are stupidly expensive / exhausting to make.

Magic isn't as reliable as a pointed stick, only destined wackjobs or prepared learned men should be able to use it as reliably as such.
However there needs to be a clear distinction between other classes.

>Warriors = hack, slash, & tactics
>Rangers/Thieves = mindful positioning & tactics
>Mages = ???

What makes a good mage class?

Making magic some mundane shit is the worst thing possible if you want to make magic interesting a fun. Literally no one thinks TES magic is interesting.

Give them a dildo rain spell lol

Make them all play like Sorcerer in Dragon's Dogma but add some new gameplay element to the actual casting process, like some incantation or somatic component that you have to perform instead of just watching the cast bar fill up. It could just be a matter of how good you get at doing those component inputs instead of having an actual cast-time so if you're able to do them really fast you can play more aggressively.

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Dominions, have fun

I don't give a shit about axes, and maybe in a thread about axes I would argue against your retarded attempt of a scapegoat some more
Fireballs should have explosion damage, sure, fire/physical, totally depends on the system you're using for different dmg types.
I don't give two shits about what YOU think a fireball is. In response to my post, fireballs aren't blockable, do an enormous amount of damage, and are extremely hard to learn and cast. That's how magic should work. Something that when happens, it's amazing. Throwing around magic missiles out of your ass makes magic a minor thing, and makes you wonder what kind of retard would choose to go around with a sword and a shield instead of throwing projectiles out of nothing.
In tales, old wizards were almost never shown casting spells, and apprentices didn't know how yet, but still went on adventures, mostly guiding the main character with their knowledge on prophecies, enemies, and magical artifacts encountered in their path.

honestly just sounds like annoying waggle shit like motion controls. no ones going to want to do that

Unironically like that game Magicka. Its a damn shame that its filled to the brim with horribly unfunny literal reddit humor.

>literally any sort of button input is now just waggle controls
Fuck off retard.

mages are always and should always be hard classes to play. they are sort of a high risk high reward sort of system where typically you have to trade off defensive stats for offense.

in oblivion you could build a badass mage but it requires alot more that most people are willing to put in.

Still haven’t explained how a fireball kills a high level character but an axe to the head does not.
>not blockable
Does to noclip through walls? If not, it’s blockable, deal with it.

>I don't give a shit about axes, and maybe in a thread about axes I would argue against your retarded attempt of a scapegoat some more
read this

>Sorcerer in Dragon's Dogma but add some new gameplay element to the actual casting process
Like DDO? You can empower spells there by playing some minigame during cast
It's kind of awful and boring though

>I-I dodged the question, no fair
Eat shit, faggot. If you want to make an argument that your shitty headcanon magic should instakill high level characters you need to argue what differentiates it from literally every other thing at the player’s disposal.
>wants to be an epic wizard
>too low iq to argue his point on Yea Forums

What if spells do metaphysical damage to a being's state of existence while an axe can't reliably damage level 99 Steelskull Hardheaders physically

Why not cast Axe?

Then you wouldn’t cast a fireball, would you, nigger?

Versatility

You're the only one ssuming shit and talking about axes to the head... no one in this thread actually gives a crap about axes.
An axe to an unprotected head should obviously be lethal, however, bigger creatures with helmets won't even be moved by an axe swing to the head, you retard, what's so hard to understand? If a bomb explodes on your face, no helmet will save you. I'd rather take an axe to the skull than a bomb to the face.
And about the fireball exploding, it only makes sense that it explodes. The only reason it's a "ball" to begin with, is because magic is containing it. When it contacts the enemy, that protection holding it together breaks, making the fire accelerate in all directions. This is an explosion, which also has physical force to it.

You need to actively control the character while casting, no in-game "help" to what you need to do while casting all in action and simultaneously keep on your toes to dodge and avoid getting rekt and as well as needing to pay attention to the surroundings residue magic as they can influence your spells (Casting a fire spell while standing in a puddle? water influence weakens the spell), High altitude? Stronger "wind" spells), just cast a spell? residue of what it was hangs left and on the Caster with a long cooldown with consequences, spam fire spells non-stop and burst into flame, Spam Light magic and go blind. The "ultimate" spells would of course require being in such a state. And of course better spells requiring proper regents and equipment, that may or may not break on usage, dipping into the idea you also need to balance costs and keep a "budget" on what you are fighting.

Rather then Mana the investment is learning the spells and being able to pull them off consistently and effectively with high speed. Spam a single spell too much and you

Just like a wizard you need to learn and memorize the spells, gather/buy what it needs and be able to cast them in the heat of the moment.

Also non-combat spells, charms and curses for use in dialog and puzzles.

You do understand that bomb armor does exist, right? You do understand that an explosion is just kinetic force, right?
>When it contacts the enemy, that protection holding it together breaks, making the fire accelerate in all directions
That’s literally what happens with a Molotov, nut there’s still no explosion.
>I'd rather take an axe to the skull than a bomb to the face.
It doesn’t matter what you’d prefer, you’re dead either way.

>bigger creatures with helmets won't even be moved by an axe swing to the head, you retard, what's so hard to understand?
Except you didn’t say creatures, you said characters. What does a high level do to a character’s skull that makes it shrug off physical impact from a weapon designed to kill, but not physical impact from a faggy spell?

Maybe I want to deal fire damage to the Steelskull Hardheader's metaphysical state of existence but only enough to painfully burn its soul and not kill it

Are there any games where you have to input button combinations to cast different spells? Like a fighting game, but in an RPG? I think it would be cool if you had to input different button combos for each spell, it would feel really involved. Maybe a super powerful spell would involve a really lengthy, complex button combination which would match the difficulty of the spell.

magefags are literally that kid from when you were 6
>NUH UH YOU CAN'T HURT ME BECAUSE I HAVE INVINCIBLE MAGIC ARMOR AND I CAN KILL YOU ELEVENTY BILLION TIMES PER SECOND

>Only eleventy billion times per second

What a loser. I have anti death armor and infinite regeneration anyway.

>I want fireballs to instakill
>but I cast fireballs to not instakill
Magic is convoluted

lets face it, WoW has some of the most fun magic gameplay

Maybe I want to kill it and a mere fireball is sufficient to destabilize its state of existence and cause it to fade from reality

>You do understand that bomb armor does exist
yeeeah, bomb armor in a typical RPG, nice try
>That’s literally what happens with a Molotov, nut there’s still no explosion.
Do you really think molotovs have fire inside the bottle? wow
>It doesn’t matter what you’d prefer, you’re dead either way.
no shit
>Except you didn’t say creatures, you said characters
Now you reached some level of autism I can't even describe
First of all, a creature is a character, so your complaint doesn't even make sense
Second, I've never even used that word. I talked about "opponents" and "enemies", so fuck off.

I dunno why mage is so fucking boring in other MMOs. How hard is it to give casters cool instant cast shit like blink, frost nova, cone of cold, etc

not any more it doesn't
>last xpac they removed most of freecasting options any casters had
>while adding in more "move here" or "run away" mechanics
being a caster is bland and suffering in wow
and just bland from the start

Just make a new Soul Sacrifice, how hard can it be? ;_;

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Sounds like you just made an incredibly boring game that's broken at every level.

Make the casting have skill/memory based player input, instead of the braindead vancean/DnD system
>push icon to cast
>rng decides if pass
>have to limit spell cast numbers
DDO has a pretty good take on the casting system just like Arx Fatalis.

Is this a stealth DD:DA thread?

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No. Magic is boring in dragon's dogma because of the extreme cast time. Sorcerer is literally the slowest paced and most unsatisfying class. Leave that shit to the pawns.

This. Items are the balance. Fighters have magical legendary items and artifacts that put them on the same level. The Mage IS the legendary artifact.
Also those who have anti-magic powers and spells and abilities

>Be Wizard
>Make magical swords for non-magical peasants

Fuck you Guild.

>Magic is boring in dragon's dogma
Nigger. HAve you never done a 4 sorc run?
Sync spell is amazing.
That being said, my favorite class is still MK and Strider.

BASED Wizard looking out for us

Magicka

If a setting has magic and can be learned, it makes sense everyone will utilize it. Being a straight up magic user in that case, makes zero sense.

Magicka did it right.

google.com/doodles/halloween-2016

Seriously some of the most fun magic gameplay ever.

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>broken
balance fags can suck my dick
a wizard can't be equal to a knight

>like magic because it is generally better if you know what you're doing
>but always feel more comfortable and even more heroic RP wise as a melee character
It is a weird effect that leads into restartitis
What also doesn't help is I don't really like multiclassing or hybrids, I stick as a pure

Roleplay>Power any day nigga.
Do power builds AFTER you've beaten the game

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How about you just don't make spells overwhelmingly powerful and make them regenerate mana quickly.
Promote the use of small, not very costly cantrips for regular combat and mostly give them buffs/status effects instead of raw damage, maybe with a few big fuck-off spells that expend most of your mana and are tied to items that break forever if you use them too frequently.

I dunno, i think Magic can be fun if it has a interesting system, but what system Magic uses really varies from game to game for obvious reasons as does the effectiveness.

Course, most Devs put the moldbreaking effort in classes that tend to be the "Weird" ones that are clearly not intended for combat, like Baker,Tailor and Merchant and the ilk.

Only one answer is correct.

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How about DEX changing your cast speed? so you make it that you can be slow as fuck near useless but your shit destroys the world, or you become really fast at casting but you have to sacrifice stat allocation into DEX to spam shit left and right, and always a healthy amount of wis to avoid running out of mana.

do you want STR to increase your spell power too?

Is Ki magic
I always felt that it was more of an energy or power but magic isn't secluded from that

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when everything this magical nothing is "magical". magic should never be utilized by players.

Do marksman classes have this problem with managing their arrow amounts? Or is it a lot easier?

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>in oblivion you could build a badass mage but it requires alot more that most people are willing to put in.

None of the TES games makes playing a mage remotely "hard", at worst it's just kinda annoying sometimes.

A better example is many of the Minecraft mods where performing magic involves having to perform research, collect materials, and craft spells, and it can take some time before you're even casting your first spell. But that's more tedious than hard. Making players do tedious shit for hours to unlock broken powers probably isn't the best approach.

Another game that attempted this was Star Wars Galaxies. Jedi were more powerful than other classes but you had to unlock them first. Unlocking Jedi meant enormous amounts of grinding and a lot of luck. On the cool side, the class had permadeath and bounty hunter players were paid to track down and kill Jedi (if they could). So it did make Jedi feel rare and exclusive. But only because it was purely a class for people with enormous amounts of time to waste and enough autism to overcome the grind. Eventually they gave up and just made Jedi a normal class anyone could make.

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youtube.com/watch?v=fmSO2cz2ozQ

in other words, they made the Jedi uninteresting after retards complained

If you were going to Yea Forums more often you would know that an axe in the head doesn't necessarily kills you.

Maybe very old powerful artifacts and armors are extremely heavy and would require a chad magician to carry them, but at that point you might make some magic wheelchair that moves you around and lifts all that shit with magic or enchant them with some sort of levitation and break the whole stat system like mages always do.

>correct magical word
Benis :D:D:D

Casting time and fragility

Man the class drawings for Oblivion are so cool

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>Mages in person are just the guns of the fantasy setting.
And there's a reason we don't see swords in IRL fights nowadays.

magic is useless in skyrim

Why respect fighters and mages....
when my potions can do anything that you can

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Or just make mana come back as quickly as stamina. Or don't use mana at all and make a system like in Magicka or something where you need some skill to pull it off quickly.

Give mages more mana

Tie mana/stamina together, both of them being a source of power and based on physical fitness.
And give external sources of mana that can be drawn upon with enough knowledge. e.g. naturally occurring mana fonts or items imbued/saturated with mana by someone else (or by the mage in preparation)

>Literally no one thinks TES magic is interesting.
Nigger.

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just get rid of mage classes. martial ones are always more fun.

I'm so glad magicfags aren't catered to, holy shit.

Here is my idea: games should have items, like wands or staffs, that have "built in" mana that never depletes. So for example, a certain wand might have 50 points of built in mana, so you always start with a baseline of at least 50 mana. And maybe the wands/staffs can have normal item degredation so they have to be repaired over time.

Or tie mana to life. You use your life to cast spells but have to concentrate/meditate to get it back or just use some other spells.

That way killing enemies could also give you back mana/life.

>tfw ywn go on an adventure with your wizard bro

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I love it
A shame no one is designing vidya magic like this

I used to think I can't use magic because I'll run out of MP. FFX solved this for me because save points heal you fully, so I can use as much magic as I want. I recently played FFIX and rather than conserving Vivi's MP for bosses I started using it against random encounters. It made many of them easier, which led to fewer turns spent in battle overall, which led to less HP lost for the other characters. Even though MP was lost, it was a decent trade-off. Even though save Moogles don't restore MP in FFIX, it was still a decent trade-off since I could usually get to the next story-driven inn (i.e. free HP/MP restoration). I don't know if they designed the game this way on purpose, but it seems like they did have to put at least some effort into it, to make MP usable without constantly running out. I'd say design games like this: make certain encounters where the enemies are defeated much quicker by magic, other encounters where they're defeated by physical attacks, and ones where there are combinations of enemies and you have to use the right move on each. Most games are like this already. The second thing to do is: make sure the likelihood of encountering enemies more easily beaten by magic is derived from the expected MP a mage character would have in the area (not level scaling, but just predict what level they should be in a first playthrough when designing the area). Then add a buffer in the earlier areas and make it tighter in the later areas. Now people can feel like it's okay to use magic because an inn or some other story-related event that fully heals them is coming.

The pvp game they made after was really great. Shame it died.

Have no mana at all. When you use magic, your health goes down. Your health regenerates, fast enough that casting minor spells outside of battle is no big deal, but not fast enough that you can just recklessly use spells. Have a spell that you can cast on enemies that restores your health when you cause them damage, like the Disc Priest class in WoW

Soul Sacrifice has vaguely similar mechanics.

I love the idea, because casting magic should take something out of you. A separate mana bar makes it seem like casting magic has no effect on your health or person, but your idea really communicates that it takes energy to case magic and is sort of your lifeblood

Problem with magic is its really just a box of tools. It doesn't lends itself to any specific kind of gameplay. It's something you plug into other kinds of game. Like Dishonored is an assassin game so you have assassin magic, etc.

9 times out of 10, playing a mage in a game actually means being a fighter who uses magic to kill shit. That's not a bad things, it's just cause fighting is reliably fun and sitting in a tower reading books isn't. Like people complained in Skyrim that the College of Winterhold (which I agree is shit) features too much going around killing stuff and looting dungeons. But else would you do? Write essays on magical theory?

I really like when games let you use you HP to do stuff. But I can't think of a lot of examples. There's A.B.A. in Guilty Gear but she's not a mage and it's a fighting game.

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Ragnarok online kinda did this and honestly it makes sense, depending on how magic works in universe.
Dex was tied to almost every other stat, in that it gave a bit of attack power, a bit of attack speed, a bit of dodge, a lot of hit chance, made the delay between your skills smaller and some other shit. You couldn't instantly cast spells unless you had a fuck lot of dex as well as int. It makes sense for what dexterity actually is.

Oh forgot but IIRC you can do that in PoE. I think there's a perk in the tree that let you use your HP instead of mana but I might be mistaking.

its kinda neat how in GTAV, once your stamina is empty, your health goes down if you're still sprinting

I remember you couldn't even make your own spells in Skyrim. That's a giant step backwards.

Yeah you can.
The Blood Magic keystone, you can also link Blood Magic Support if you only want it on a specific skill

It would be neat if there were some quests about having to make some really powerful enchantments

PoE has some very great mage builds.

spell making wasn't that great in any of the games. it was even pretty useless in morrowind, enchanting was always better. the real problem was they killed the ability to make really powerful/fun enchantments

Fuck off. I want to level the ground to make platforms, turn invisible to watch women in the bath, have a pocket dimension to store my shit and turn water into Sunny D

>But I can't think of a lot of examples
Unlimited SaGa, everything you do in battle costs HP, though HP in that game work more as fuel and a soft shield for your real life, which is LP, meaning the lower your HP value the higher the LP damage you'll take.
That's extra important for pure mages since they have naturally weaker defenses due to their builds being focused on maximizing magic affinity/familiars/spell learning over raw stats, spam too much magic, especially high tier spells and you'll find yourself with zero defense and likely to be killed in one turn, unless you're a top tier Earth/Metal mage who can turn into a nearly impregnable fortress with support spells.

this but randomize it for each playthrough to some tiered extend so you can't just look it up

Nice, that's a great idea.

I roleplay as a power-hungry character.

Make a mage class have spell slots and prepared spells like in DnD. Magic should be difficult and devastating, not dirt common and equally effective as traditional arms. The trade off is that you're effectively defenseless in melee and have none of a rogue's utility.

As I said Roleplay>Power

>effectively defenseless in melee
>as a wizard
>in d&d combat
You lack imagination

That's how it *should* be for a game

>mage guild

Because wizards never get too big for their hats and strike out on their own to get rich/powerful

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>Skyrim has a better magic system than Oblivion
Get the fuck out of here, n'wah.

This reminds me of an idea I had. A martial mage who uses his spear to cast spells.

Lichdom: Battlemage.

Yeah, it's a great game if you're into experimental mechanics, the entire series is really.
Problem with the mages in Unlimited though is that you have only two ways to cast spells.
One is investing into familiars, which can only cast five basic spells depending on their rank and element, the other is finding and learning magic tablets and using a channeling medium (either a weapon or an armlet) attuned to a certain school of magic.
Familiars are nice because not only come with prelearned spells, unlike channelling tools they last indefinitely while each cast from a tool depletes its item durability (meaning you need to eventually repair it, and if you don't have a smith in your party during a quest, tough shit), they also can help you exploring your surrounding by finding hidden treasure, on the other hand, channeling tools lets you do more stuff in case they're weapons, or give you better defenses in case they're accessories, like status immunities or elemental bonuses.

Needless to say, a true mage build absolutely requires you to use channeling, which means you need to hunt for Magic Tablets, which are incredibly rare, especially high level ones, and require a lot of farming to get AND then you need to learn those spells, Forbidden magic is almost impossible to obtain too outside of a few characters that come with a forbidden tablets.
On top of that, you can also develop a magic blender skill for fusing multiple spells and create a powered up version of a base spell or an advanced spell, and that needs you to not only be lucky enough to develop Magic Blender, but also to have learned a shitton of spells.

Pure mages are the hardest build to run in the game, but they're also incredibly powerful in battle and useful in the field, especially fire/wood/metal mages, it's one of those games that really give you a good mage experience where all your efforts and time investments pay off big time, but you gotta commit to your build and really know your shit.

youtube.com/watch?v=In6HYmhtCV0

Their attacks don't use mana.

And stats ones, and faction ones, and quest ones, and magic ones...

I was thinking of something more realistic, not insect glaive 2.0. Though still nice that they made that.

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>magic
>realistic
k

Not the magic part but the spear part.

Nuclear take : Magic is inherently and infinitely more powerful and versatile than melee, archery, sneak or any other classic type of "physical" combat styles you see in RPGs. If you're going to make an RPG that has Mage as an available class then the entire game should revolve around magic itself, having multiple magic classes instead of arbitrarily limiting spells to garbage like fire, frost and lightning for "balancing" purposes.

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The only good familiars are dead familiars.

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wow i bet all your characters have "tragic" backstories too like your parents getting killed by bandits or some shit
you boring faggot

nitrome.com/games/magictouch/
try this, you'll like it. there's a mobile version too I think

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It sounds good on paper to autistic people magicfags like us but i doubt it would make for interesting or fun gameplay.

I just like making strong builds.

Make them powerful but limited. That's their whole point dude.

I've power gamed every rpg I've ever played. And I usually just self insert. I guess you could say the role I play is "guy that gets all the stuff and kills all the baddies"

This. It seemed stupid to me otherwise. I mean magic is clearly very powerful, whats even the point of having traditional armed warriors? In a universe like TES you'd figure they'd put everything into learning as much about magic as possible and it becomes a part of everyone's life.

KEEP
THROWING ME

About to try this. Should i play the first or the second ?

First and then second.

How would you deal with racial differences in magical abilities though ? You'd limit the choice to 2 maybe 3 races in a TES game : Altmer, Dunmer and Breton

then roleplay that my nigga

Cheers

World of warcraft vanilla is the best game to do mages while also having melee classes.

Especially POM mages that can make you feel like a God for 20 seconds.

>I've power gamed every rpg I've ever played. And I usually just self insert.
you are like a Greater Autism Elemental, holy shit

I've always admired people who mained mage classes in rpgs. Only the strongest of minds have the fortitude to sacrifice aesthetics for power. I'm too much of a coward to put on a dress.

faggot

Self inserting is a type of roleplay

>I'm too much of a coward to put on a dress.
that's not a dress, it's a very manly robe
for men

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But mage classes are arguably the most core /fa/ of all, closely followed by rogues.

even paladins are more fashion as well
but that's just the typical edgy pitch black+neon blue/red colored white+yellow

>Only the strongest of minds have the fortitude to sacrifice aesthetics for power.
Imagine being this much of a fag

go with a D&D or Palladium type system

>variety of magic schools
>different types of 'mp' depending on the school and spell - nature-based types regen mp when they are around their type of nature, ritual types need time, the right ingredients, and become exhausted after performing too many spells, traditional wizards memorize spells and can fire them off rapidly but afterward need a lot of time to read them again / recover, witches/warlocks may need to commune with their deity, etc etc
>each school uses different methods of casting with different powers and different effects
>players can supplement magic skills with other abilities, or go pure mage
>seeking out & attaining spells should take some time, questing, and possible experimentation
>high-level spells should be a power to behold
>as a player rises in the ranks of their school of magic, they learn about the lore of the school, also about rival schools/wizards/etc
>different communities may shun or attack magic-users, so they may need to disguise themselves
>demon negotiation needs to be a thing
>experimentation to learn new spells should be a thing

It's my cross to bear, user

I am wearing a steel helmet
>axe to the head
damn, I'm a little dizzy from that strike and off balance now, my enemy has the advantage
>fireball to the head
Oh shit I am vaporized at an atomic level

you can make an awesome magic character of any race if you learn how to fortify magicka

>Nuclear take : Magic is inherently and infinitely more powerful and versatile than melee, archery, sneak or any other classic type of "physical" combat styles you see in RPGs.

Nah, it's magic so it can be whatever you want it to be, strong or weak. The problem is less about it being too weak and more about it being too simple. I'd be happier to play some voodoo witch with a complicated system of making dolls out of people so you can poke them full of holes or light them on fire than some OP wizard who just has lots of MMO-style powers that happen to be really strong.

I wonder why people complain about magic too much in video games being too op at a point
I thought it was usually accepted that
>warriors are good throughout
>mages start very weak end super strong
I always thought that was good and i'm a guy who plays melee most of the time

People will call me mentally ill and tell me to kill myself if I wear a dress in real life, vidya dresses are all I have user

>The problem is less about it being too weak and more about it being too simple.
That's what i meant when i wrote
>having multiple magic classes instead of arbitrarily limiting spells to garbage like fire, frost and lightning
Different types of magic with their own mechanics would be great, telekinesis was what came to add but the possibilities are basically limitless.

>was what came to add
Jesus, came to mind*

>rng
yikes

Skyrim magic looks more fun than the others by far in this webm it is the most fun of those games

DND did it just fine, its weird that so few games took inspiration from it
>mana doesn't exist
>get a limited number of spells of varying power levels
>higher level spells have fewer uses
>get things like 5 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, 1 level 3 spell, and so on
>higher spells levels unlock as you level, and lower spell levels gain more uses
>once spells of a given level are used up that's it
>once you rest you restore uses to these spells
>use your shittier lower level spells (that still do pretty good damage/effects) for weaker enemies and save your mega nukes for big enemies

Like Defilers in Dark Sun. You drain the life out of the surrounding. No juice around you, no spells.

Go back to tabletop way of thinking instead of this fireball-but-bigger trash

>BG2 Sorc
>toss out a web on enemy
>summon assload of spiders
>turn self into spider and join them
>clear out half of Athkatla and the outskirts this way
Magic user abilities should be strange, fun, and powerful. Not this dinky Pillars shit where you buff someone for 1.8 stats for 15s or CC them for 12s

Like this?

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