Frampt vs Kaathe

They both lie to manipulate you into pursuing their own goals. Dark Souls shows that choices are rarely black and white, there is no simple right and wrong. Every option has flaws

The serpents are descendants of dragons, which makes them eternally butthurt. You shouldn't trust any of them.

And let the feast begin

That's a very interesting theory actually.

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Kaathe 'cause he's cooler

Manus wasn't real Abyss faggot, he was just some fanatical extremist that got pissy because someone took his trinket, it was an isolated incident
You should be blaming Gwyn for failing to protect his own kingdom, what worthless asshole did he assign to contain that?

But that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They have entirely different goals and ideals that oppose each other. True, we may never know the extent of their altruism, but one choice out of the two, either to sacrifice yourself to the flame or become a lord for humans, is surely better than the other, right?

The Serpents were the only thing I wanted closure for and all we got was a passing mention and some statues that may or may not be what they actually look like. Not even so much as a hint of confirmation as to whether or not they died prior to DaS2.

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>Frampt subtly and gradually fucks over humanity
>Kaathe blatantly fucks them over
Serpents ruined and are responsible for everything.

>two-headed
Try 100 headed at least.

>Not even so much as a hint of confirmation as to whether or not they died prior to DaS2
You can infer, at least, that the Sable Church is Kaathe's doing.

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Yeah, but that could have happened at any point after 1 with the way undead work.

“Lord of humans” sounds way too good to be true, we don’t know the whole extent of that price tag and everything about “dark” at that period pointed to zero good things. It’s also hard to say how much good burning yourself alive for the greater good would be because we aren’t sure how much longer that was going to last.

You ever notice how everyone conveniently neglects to mention that time the Abyss had help clean up the mess of one the so-called "Great Lords"?
Yeah, this website isn't full of royal family bootlickers

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if you didn't kill priscilla you are a traitor humanity and a traitor to the sun
stop thinking with your dick footfags

How does not killing Gwyn's daughter make me a traitor to the Sun?

Whats some good armor to go with this headpiece? I always lean towards sorcerer robes, maybe cleric outfit is worth a try.

>gwyn
also it is because she is an abomination in the sight of the LORD (the sun)

Court Sorcerer set

Court Sorcerer chest is good
Or adjust your skin color to match it and wear tattered looking shit that reveals it

Dark Souls 2 is not canon lol

What happens after (You) Link the Fire in DS1?
I don't know shit about DS lore

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You extend Gwyn's Age of Fire.

You, and the whole bunch of souls you collected so far, become fuel to the first flame, and the age of fire continues for a few more years

I know that much, but what exactly does that mean?

I know what happens in the Klin, I mean what happens after that
Everyone left is mostly either dead or Hollow right?
How can an age of properity continue if mostly everyone is dead?

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I am legitimately, severely disillusioned with DS2 and 3’s lore at this point. They both feel nowhere near as thought-out as DS1’s world and history.
And I was worried it was just going to be a one-off thing with DS1 until Bloodborne happened.

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>How can an age of properity continue if mostly everyone is dead?
There’s a TON of places beyond Lordran that are far from ‘dead’.

2's story is a shit ton of plot points that don't go anywhere apart from Aldia, there's way too much ambiguity
3's story maybe was going to be something, but after getting chopped up in development is an incoherent mess of plot holes, retcons, and fanservice

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Dark Souls 2 is the ONLY canon souls game

>ahah mom look i posted a fhanny xDDD wew thanks for the uboats my doods!!!!
based

the gods will likely continue strong for some more time, hollows will remain hollow and dangerous, but the remaining gods might do something about it, who knows.
What really matters is that gods can continue they douchebaggery for some more time.

it ultimately dosent matter

either you keep the age of fire going for a while longer or you restart the cycle, RESTART. eventually the age of fire will start again and thy can play their games and eat your garbage.

DS1cels seething

2 tried to be too different and far-removed from 1 to the point that it may as well have not been a Souls game, in name at least
3 tried to be too similar to 1 to the point that it felt like it had no identity of its own, like fan fiction that just randomly includes terms and characters that were important to 1 solely so it could call itself a Dark Souls sequel

Frampt's awful keen on the First Flame being continued and probably goaded Gwyn into doing it too

DESU this seems to be one thing that constantly fucks up people’s interpretation of DS1’s lore. So many seem to assume that because Lordran is fucked up, it means that the entire world is fucked up and there’s nothing to save anymore. In reality, Lordran is just the ground zero of the undeath shit, and just like you said, most of the world is still doing fine despite undeath slowly creeping in.

While Age of Fire is a shitty end for your own character, there will be many who would be grateful for its extension.

Epic post my fellow gamer!

One's telling you to extend the age of the Gods by killing all the Gods, and then your self.
The other tells you to kill the Gods and then rule the humans since it's clear you oppose the Gods.
Both Frampt and Kaathe want an end to the age of the Gods, but they keep the illusion of choice to ensure that their champion perishes if they're a God loyalist.

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I thought you explored the entire land, does that mean there are other places in the Souls world on top of the other trees in ash lake?
I thought they all held the world

I thought the only gods that existed were the ones in the opening, now it makes more sense

>trusting either

Remember that "succeeding Gwyn" sounds really sweet too as long as you're not aware of what Gwyn's been doing for the last couple thousand years.

Kaathe is supposed to have died according to Yuria's japanese dialogue but I'll be damned if I trust that slut or anything having to do with those scaly fucks short of seeing the corpse myself.

based

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Here you go

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Dragons have nothing to do with these assholes
The Path of the Dragon is not the Path of Darkwraithes

I don't think either are

He was dead in his grave and got tormented by the Oolacile residents who were tempted by Kaathe
He is literally the Father of the Abyss by his title

>DaS1
“Dragons are all dead aside from Drakes, who aren’t immortal, and a few outliers”
>DaS2

>I thought you explored the entire land, does that mean there are other places in the Souls world on top of the other trees in ash lake?
>I thought they all held the world
That’s the idea. But Astora, Catarina, Carim, Thorolond (I think?), all exist and flourish and prosper - remember our character had been thrown into the Asylum and forgotten.
We only go to the place the OG God inhabited and influenced the most, the original domains of Nito, Izalith, and Gwyn.

God Yea Forums is so fucking cringe when talking about this series.

Literally straight up copied from berserk

>The Idea of Evil[expl 1] is a primal entity residing in the Abyss. It is responsible for the fate of humanity, acting on the species' collective desires

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The energy of your soul serves as fuel to keep the dying First Flame healthy for another age. Being that the First Flame is the primordial creator force of the setting, and the reason why basic things like "life" and "laws of physics" exist, you're basically the one thing that keeps reality existing. But eventually, it starts running out just as Gwyn's did, and another Chosen Undead has to succeed you. And another. And another. And another. And another.
At the end of Dark Souls 3, you fight the collective mass of all these burnt out souls that have fed the First Flame over the entire Age of Fire until its last moment of dying strength where it starts fighting like Gwyn did again.

>tfw I just fucking realized that the fourth shrine maiden they were talking about is the shrine maiden in DS3 firelink shrine.

Holy shit.

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but all those areas are also infested with hollows and the like.

"Fear not the dark, my friend,"

based parachute

...dragons are all dead aside from Drakes, who aren't immortal, and a few outliers?

what about the lord of cinders?
How are they still alive? Didn't they link the flame too?

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>hollows will remain hollow and dangerous
Actually they will most likely just fall dead. Hollowing is a blurring of the First Flame's rules when it comes to the separation of "alive" and "dead", and a temporary regression to that state of unliving that the man-like beings crawling underground in the Age of Ancients had. Hollowing presumably doesn't happen when the Flame is healthy and can properly enforce the rule of "People die when they are killed"

“Humans” not as susceptible to the Dark would be pretty invaluable in that task, too.

DaS2 Ancient Dragon is fake. The actual one is seen in a memory. The boss version drops a Soul of Giant

I think the problem is trying to create a canon. DS2 lore is pretty cool because it's kinda separated, but it's even more vague than any of the other games which is annoying, but also kind of the point of the game.
DS3 tries to be an direct followup to 1 with its fire and darkness, but by actually creating a real continuity (through tons of references) it kinda makes the lore worse IMO. The idea of cycles wearing down the world and making it even more depressing than the other games was cool, and so was the DLC story of Gael trying to create a new painting. But there's so much stuff that kinda destroys the fun of having things open ended in the first game.
What's the point of not linking the fire if the "canon" says you did? Why kill Gwyndolin when he actually gets eaten by Aldritch? Why kill Ornstein when he actually went to Archdragon Peak? It's stupid and unnessecary, and there's tons of stuff like that.

Only for 50 souls

frampt and kaathe are one entity

They’re “infested” but not overrun, I think that’d just be Balder and that other knight place that are super screwed, right? The other provinces are able hold it for the time being, I think that’s part of the reason your mission is so important: Undead are about to get WAY worse.

They're the two "sides" of kikery. Both are your enemy.

Why do people keep saying this?

Neither.
Only Aldia does.

Only smart goy ITT
This also

have you ever seen frampt's tail?

I think the extra meme part is that they wanted you to get into the whole "time is convoluted" memery - and even enforce your suspension of disbelief by making your co-op missions with allied phantoms take place in different realities.
What they are going for is that all of DS3 is just one of those timeline memeries, but that hardly makes sense in itself.

>trusting the Idea of Evil's description of itself.
It's obvious that the Four Kings of the World are the actual God Hand and that the Idea of Evil is a literally Goddamned liar.

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and redpilled

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All the Lords of Cinder in 3 except Lothric/Lorian have been already fed to the First Flame once. What happens, however, and what we effectively know, is that the Flame is so weak now that the Bells of Awakening of Firelink Shrine end up being used to bring those Lords back to life, albeit at a fraction of the power they once had, to be fed to the Flame all over again, in the hopes of wringing out whatever last little bit of strength they might have that wasn't fully eaten the first time. Like trying to keep a fire going by throwing already completely burnt ash into it. The Bell ringing and bringing all these old Lords back and even raising failed Chosen Undeads like your player character [although you're never referred in-game by those words, it's basically what you are] is essentially the universe screaming "SOMEBODY FUCKING DO SOMETHING FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK"

it's theorized that in DS1, even if you didn't link the fire, Solaire would sneak in and sacrifice himself to link it.
Makes sense since you can summon Solaire to help you with Gwyn.

I really like this image.

Because it'd be kinda neat if it were the case
Also there's the fact that Frampt serves you in the Dark Lord ending, which implies that either he's extremely submissive and bent his knee when you served to complete Kaathe's goal, or he was playing both sides from the start

no, its the Emerald Herald
t. Royal Sorcerer Navlaan

If you can't tell, does it matter?

What are trying to say?

Why didn't the bell summon the CU, the strongest of them all?And why only 4?
Why not all of them?

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That's a dumb theory considering that the only way that can happen is if you did the convoluted, strange and generally not worthwhile extra effort to keep him from going batshit insane. Otherwise he is very much permanently dead way before then.

They're the same entity, you fucking idiot.

I always figured the undead curse ended and life went back to "normal" except now with the knowledge that you had to sacrifice someone to the Flame every 1000 or so years to keep shit going

No. Also, you're not a Chosen Undead in 3, you are an Unkindled.

Where does it ever state that the Abyss Watchers were already fed to the flame before the start of the game? You're just making up nonsense.

I think the Soul of Cinder has the CU inside of it

Skipping Lost Izalith is always worthwhile

The correct answer is to not finish the game. This was the original intent, hence why covenants are endless, you're meant to keep playing the game for your covenant instead of listening to either snake and completing the game.

He goes insane because of that sunlight maggot attached to his head, you could probably reason it like the dragon transformation as a change to the body that goes away when the Undead is killed and revived

You wouldn't a snake.

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It says that they linked the flame in order to drive away the abyss or some shit like that.
So fucking weird I tell ya.

>I thought you explored the entire land, does that mean there are other places in the Souls world on top of the other trees in ash lake?
have you never looked out in the distance in DS1? Lordran is the equivalent to Mount Olympus, an extremely high mountain where most of the gods dwell far from human interaction. The extension of trees holds everything

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and what if helping Solaire is the canon choice?

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>Trusting something that looks like this.

They are both evil as fuck and Ive killed everything else in the game, why stop?

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Solaire doesn't have a soul as powerful as yours, so his sacrifice wouldn't satiate the flame as much as yours would because only you defeated the 4 lords.

It's not canon because he became the Carthus Sandworm

A lie will remain a liepilled

The Abyss Watchers are Lords of Cinder.
They have a flame mode as well.

Isn't the point of being a Chosen Undead that you are chosen for this particular task? How could Solaire, who has none of the great souls, be able to even enter the Kiln? I'm pretty sure Frampt would never let him and Frampt is clearly guarding the Kiln.

why was Soul tryna protect the bonfire?
So the 4 lords of cinder present in the game, it was just pure luck that they were there?

Pretty sure that's true. Soul of CInder is basically an amalgamation of all the people who linked the fire at some point, hence the player and Gwyn moveset.

neither
Frampt is trying to get the Chosen Undead to set himself on fire forever to keep the First Flame burning, Kaathe is trying to get you to extinguish the First Flame so the whole world will freeze and everyone will die, and making up BS about the Age of Dark being the Age of Man to get you to do it.

No bro, NG+

But it's been objectively shown that humans are from the abyss

They're special because they renounced the throne and their duties, save for Ludleth.
The SoC is kind of on the frontlines, keeping the flame alit until a worthy opponent shows up.

It's not even theorized, Miyazaki outright states it in an interview
>Miyazaki: Going back to Solaire, it's really a secret and I think that the happiest ending for him is to die by becoming the sun! He's happy, he becomes the sun!
>Murohashi: Wait, I didn't understand well. So what exactly happens?
>Miyazaki: If you kill the red-eyed Sunlight Maggot, he can fight with you against the last boss. After that, he will link the fire in his own world.

It's implied that the four that get raised are the latest ones in the line. Ludleth is heavily implied to have been the Lord of Cinder responsible for the "present" cycle, and the last to have been fed before Lothric was supposed to do it. Maybe anything earlier than that simply does not have enough power left to manifest independently anymore, and is stuck as an aspect of the Soul of Cinder, including Gwyn and the original Chosen Undead. If you pay attention to the differences between Linking the Flame in 1 and 3, in 1 the First Flame just readily devours your body, and in 3 it can barely crawl up your arm. The implication being that it could barely chew up Aldrich and co, and is barely going to be able to make use of you, too.

An "Unkindled" is essentially a failed Chosen Undead. You set out to link the Flame once, and just failed.
Also, item descriptions tell you that they all offered themselves to the Flame together using their Soul of the Wolf's Blood or whatever nonsense. I could go hunting for the item description that spells it out loud but I'm way too lazy to.

you've never seen frampt's tail. could be anything. could be kaathe's head. why hide it if it weren't secret?

So why aren't the 4 lords part of the SoC?
Did the Pontiff know about this?

From the dark. The abyss is to the Dark what Chaos is to Fire

>Where does it ever state that the Abyss Watchers were already fed to the flame before the start of the game?
Ludleth tells you he linked the fire and is a Lord of Cinder, the guy that lets you transpose boss weapons. The only one not actually a LoC is Lothric, who never linked the fire.

The opening cinematic tells you, you muppet.

They're Lords of Cinder and as such have linked the fire in a past cycle. They are revived to do it again after the ringing of the bell along with the others, as no champion has arrived to link the fire yet and shit's getting late.

>Solaire is also a Chosen Undead
What about other NPCs?

The 4 remaining lords of Cinder are essentially traitors

Does anybody have a link to the leak/cut content stuff from DS3? I could swear I saw it on Yea Forums a while back. I could swear the guy mentioned that the final boss at some point was one of the primordial serpents.

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The only lord fed to the flame was Gwyn, the Bed of Chaos and Nito were only fed to the Lordvessel

Search dark souls 3 ceremonies on YT

kaagaz.io/84450f01
there's a screencap that gets posted with most of these on it but there's also a bunch of fanmade bullshit added on to it about Gwyn's ghost and the serpents

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Late to the party, I only just got into Dark Souls two months ago and I finished 3 and its last DLC an hour ago

I feel fucking amazed at the journey yet incredibly empty at the same time. What next lads

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In the context of the cycles I think it does make sense. All the places you travel to in vanilla are from different ages and all kind of fucked up because the linking of the fire seems to corrupt and twist everything by forcing it back to life (a bit meta, and I think the aesthetic design did a really good job with it). But that's where they should have fucking stopped.
What the hell is going on with Untended Graves? Is it the past? Some vision of what the age of dark might be? Ambiguity just for the sake of it. And don't even get me started on Dreg Heap and Ringed City - great setpieces, but at that point it really is just convoluted time travel memery.

3 is arguably the worst. Have you played the others? Demon Souls or Bloodborne? If not then play em.

DeS, BB, Sekiro

>Manus wasn't real Abyss faggot
My dude, his in-game name was "Manus, Father of the Abyss"

Choosing darkness is a selfish path, where you can get stronger (artorias, magnus, midir...).
It's opposite is keeping the fire lightening up the darkness (for everyone). Not necessarily a better path, it's just the purpose of a king, being devoted to its people.
Darkness and Light, ying and yang found in buddha's symbol. Two snake, two flows of time, two destinies, two massive environmental influencers.

the only other character I could see being on the same quest is Lautrec, since Siegmeyer is just adventuring for his own reasons, and most others came to Lordran for knowledge like Logan and Laurentius

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it's the handmaiden

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Take a seat and join us for the rest of your life mumbling about how bullshit it is you don't get to stab the serpents

>Believing anyone but Fina

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>HE FINA DAB ON THE FIREKEEPER

the final boss was Pontif, who you were gonna fight in the untended graves.
With all the candles up.

This is the kind of retard that hates on DS2. You can't even understand the simplest fucking things about the story of this series. All the other idiots spouting shit like "ds2 is not canon anyway lolol" should be shot too. Aldia literally spoils the twist from The Ringed City but it sure is fun to just ignore what you don't like for the sake of being a sheep.

How's sitting with your back turned to that unsurvivable cliff inches behind you going?

play Sekiro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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>Kaathe showing up in the Lothric castle
>The entire Aldrich fight in Undead Cathedral

Of all the things in this list these two sting the worst. Aldrich because that fucking coffin sticks out like a sore thumb and Kaath because it would had been great to get some closure on the serpents. Why do you think they cut him? Lack of time? Did they want to keep speculation going by keeping the primordial serpents mysterious?

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>What the hell is going on with Untended Graves?
>”hey GUYS!!! that shit in BB with the abandoned workshop was HYYYYPE can you just throw that same shit into DS3 last minute for good ole DadBamco? Sweeet thanks doods”
The place does nothing but confuse things. Its MOSTLY from the past except for that bit involving the blond hair and Londor dude.
The more you dig into DS3 the more cut stuff you find - that sadly makes MORE sense of things than any lore theory. “Man, why is Pontiff so built up when he’s just a mid-bo- oh he was gonna be the end boss”.

That's pretty irrelevant since we don't know anything about the next cycle. Besides Ludleth also linked the flame and he doesn't strike me as particularly strong either.

>implying he did not die a colossus
Ludleth is the best boy in the game

BAMCO fucking up, and telling them to fuck off and deliver the game as an incomplete mess because muh release date.
Sekiro is their first fully made game, and it SHOWS.

Not him but what if he doesn't have a PS3 for DeS or PS4 for Bloodborne. Actually if he played on PS4 how is he gonna play DeS?

What is the Deep then?

>Did they want to keep speculation going by keeping the primordial serpents mysterious?
that's my best guess, makes more sense to keep them in the shadows than yet another grandiose fight

Not my problem.

no one fucking knows, fuck this game

literally a darker form of Dark

That's on him.

A deeper form of Dark and a more direct analogue of an "Age of Fire" because an Age of Deep as brought on by Aldrich would be an Age of Water, there's some spell-descriptions in the game that say the Deep didn't always have horrible insects and shit in it. More or less it's stagnant water in theme and purpose.

>tfw Dark Souls 3 teases Serpents by having statues of them but they have no appearance in the story at all
Wasted

It certainly explains a lot of the messiness. Should've worked another year on it.
>blond hair
you mean the fire keeper?
The only reason I don't hate untended graves is because it unlocks the second ending, which is definitely my favorite (besides the 4th ending-not-ending dialogue when you give the girl the blood of the dark soul). But it really is kind of annoying because it implies all sorts of things - and so does Ludleth's dialogue - without providing any answers at all.

The one after the dark, duhhh

>tfw the Deep is postmodernism

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Wait, I need a recap here, what exactly was the connection between the Abyss and Humanity? Ending the Age of Fire was basically more of Kaathe's Abyss bullshit in disguise, right?

What exactly is humanity in the context of dark souls?

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A little piece of the Dark Soul

>you mean the fire keeper?
Sorry, I meant the *white* hair from Yoel’s ‘Hollow Ashes’. They only appear in Untended Graves after he’s killed.
So, a place supposedly “”””in the past””” can be affected by something from the present. The fuck?

In DS1 DLC that Manus' "humanity went wild" which created the Chasm of the abyss. Humanity is associated with the dark.

"Dark" and "Abyss" are sometimes used interchangably. Like with the Locust preachers in ringed city for instance.

An infinitesimally tiny shard of the Dark Soul, and some odd unique quality of humans that makes them humans which the gods and their servants (ie Ornstein and Smough) don't have.

also, it's not clear how exactly the age of dark from DS1 ending differs from the end of fire in DS3. In DS3 it's implied that the world is literally dark and coming to an end. In DS1 the age of dark supposedly is the "age of man" Kaathe talks about, which is closer to the usurpation of fire ending in DS3.

Fan speculation has it that the abyss is basically the primal urges of humanity running unchecked - killing and devouring each other, that sort of thing - which is different from just dark. But who the hell knows.

Bump

Emulate

How accurate would you say this is

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That's pretty accurate overall. The only real point of contention is Dark Souls 3 being iffy on what's actually canon out of all of Dark Souls 2, since 2 doesn't gel with much of anything in 3 but there's still recurring elements like the country of Mirrah, the Shield of Want being a Drangleic Shield in disrepair, the Drang Knights/Faraam set, and there apparently being a record in history for "those who went beyond death" (probably Aldia).

Seems pretty accurate to me, as far as that's possible.
Might put Ludleth before the rising of the other Lords of Cinder, but that's ambiguous anyway.

there's also the Drang Knights and the Ruin Knights are expanded on in the DLC as having perished attempting to infiltrate TRC

fuck missed where you said the Drang Knights, my b

Kaathe because even if it constantly fucks up it's still better than 'lol just be god's battery for few years'

Neither. They just want everyone to be fucked over all the time because all of the serpents are cunts.

>tfw you realize that the game is basically called "Humanity"

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>Shield of Want being a Drangleic Shield
The Shield of Want is Vendrick's "King's Shield" item, not the Drangleic Shield, which in III is called "Kite Shield".

It would make sense since Dark Souls borrows so much from Berserk already.

They're both telling the truth, from their own perspective. They just happen to have different goals.

I thought Oolacile was shortly after Gwyn linked the flame.

If the ancient dragons were still alive, things would be different around here.

Frampt states that he's been waiting "a thousand years" for the Chosen Undead, i.e. since Gwyn linked the fire.

A developer interview states that Artorias of the Abyss took place 300 years before the main narrative of Dark Souls proper.

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during an interview one guy said AotA takes place 200-300 years before the main game but that can't be right since so many locations and areas change before the present time of the game starts

Not to mention the sky is different - the sun (linked to Gwyn) is visible in what would become Darkroot. Why would that change?

Also, if New Londo was where it is at the time of Oolacile's fall, why the fuck didn't they send help? They would have had trade routes and a massively linked culture since they're practically next door.

Though - how is it possible for Artorias to have "hunted Darkwraiths" (his GS description) if he died in Oolacile which fell BEFORE New Londo succumbed to the Abyss - Darkwraiths are described as "the fallen knights of New Londo" SPECIFICALLY.

tl;dr FROM messed up that whole segment in terms of lore by not paying close enough attention.

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>In reality, Lordran is just the ground zero of the undeath shit, and just like you said, most of the world is still doing fine despite undeath slowly creeping in.
It's pretty funny when you think about the fact that all of DS1 (bar the asylum) effectively takes place on the side/top of a single mountain

What does Filianore actually do after we wake her up in the Ringed City dlc? I allways thought that she either canceled a illusion or speed up time.

It's mentioned again and again that serpents are imperfect dragons in the Dark Souls universe.

They still linked the flame.

cute

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when does the fest begin?

And the Earthen Keep in the DLC

I always assumed they were like cat dog and the same guy

that depends, OP

who are Framp and Kathe

The serpents are to the dragons what demons were to Izalith.
The original pyromancy still exists, the same way the original path of the dragons lives on with the stone dragon

that nigga and that nigga's cousin, basically

If only you could have the colour and life of the cardboard DaS2 model with the improved quality of the drab DaS3 model.

Pretty sure it's only mentioned on the covetous serpent rings

>They only appear in Untended Graves after he’s killed
Wait, what?

As I understand the theory, the shell and filianore's sleep "locked" the ringed city in time. You see ruins from all the eras piled up above on the dreg heap, but the ringed city is separate from all that. Breaking the shell basically rushes you into the end of time when all that's left is ashes. I don't think the city is an illusion.

Yup, Yoel's ashes appear in untended graves in the same place where he stands in regular firelink shrine

Real Abyss has never been tried before

>300 years
That can't be right: the forest environment is too different for just 300 years.

Weird, looking it up now. Never had that happen in my game. Then again, I almost always do Yoel's quest line.

Neither, they are literally just there to make you fuck yourself over.

Frampt wanted to trick me into burning myself alive for cucks who don't give a shit about me.
Kaathe wanted to make me king.
I'd throw my lot in with Kaathe if I had to choose.

The End probably doesn't lead to the actual beginning of the timeline but another world entirely

Ingward says that the Darkwraiths have been defeated before if you speak to him and that Artorias eradicated them

>kaathe in dark souls 1
>let the fire die so nature will take its course
>yuria's goal in dark souls 3
doesn't want to let nature take its course and wants you to seize the flame power after doing some voodoo ritual shit
well somebody in this dark party is withholding information

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>canon ending to the series is going to live with a loli half-dragon waifu in her painting forever
pretty based to be desu

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He says "according to legend" which is clearly wrong. He also says several times that the Darkwraiths originated in New Londo, which doesn't even seem to exist at the time of the Oolacile crisis.

Whoa, easy with the antiserpmitism

The reason why the primordial serpents are misrepresented in their depicted statues is because it was purposefully done to make them seem more angelic.

The world needs to end and they dont want that to happen so neither decision matters, by the time Dark Souls 3 roles around its proof that they've essentially won and humanity will keep doing their work.

In otherwords, literal jews.

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>used to think gwyn did the deed just for his own self interests
>realized he was afraid of the age of dark being a big unknown and didn't want to run the risk of it destroying the world, so he just threw himself into the fire to extend the current stability as long as possible.
sure people tried to take advantage of it, and he probably should have just let nature take it's course, but i feel like his intentions were pure, and it makes me sad when people say he just wanted to keep the gods in power.
best grandpa 10/10

Gwyn started the war with the dragons for no apparent reason whatsoever, so he might have always been a glory hound.

I don't care which one is right, only one allows me to be a total dickweed to everyone and suck up their humanity.

Making people kill their Solaire was the funnest shit

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Darkdiver Grandpa's style of abyss was pretty chill.

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there isn't that much info other than what's shown in the intro.
for all we know, the dragon's were huge assholes and would just attack anything indiscriminately like kalameet.
so far the only dragons that were actually chill were sinh before that asshole tried running him through, that dragon from 3 who was friends with the princess before he was corrupted, and that fake one from 2.

ah right, and the one in the lake.

Frampt is cute. I like his floppy ears.

they were both full of shit, but i liked frampt.

Or floppy whatever the fuck they are

upvote

We're only shown the dragons quietly meditating in the intro before the war begins, matching up with what the Everlasting Dragon does, and Kalameet probably wasn't attacking things indiscriminately. He was the last of his kind by the time of Dark Souls and likely pissed, and he only attacks the player after they wander into his territory. He encounters them earlier on the bridge and even looks right at them but decides to fly away.

>He says "according to legend" which is clearly wrong.
how is it wrong? Artorias may have died at Oolacile but doesn't mean he didn't have other exploits with the Dark before then
>He also says several times that the Darkwraiths originated in New Londo, which doesn't even seem to exist at the time of the Oolacile crisis.
he says they were created from the knights of New Londo but that doesn't mean they were the FIRST Darkwraiths to come about, and his other dialogue says they existed pre-NL as well
>The Darkwraiths are the enemies of man, and any living thing that has a soul. They were never meant to roam again.
>>>>roam again

Its sad that these two never were a boss fight.
>Primordial Angel Frampt
>Abyssal Dragon Kaathe

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giving them bodies ruins the mystery tbqh

fucking perfect.

the only thing I would change is the fact that the painted world is subjected to cycles of its own

Well that makes sense thank you

it really does.
i used to think they were just a part of the abyss what with how their models would just meld into the dark.

"According to legend," means Ingward doesn't even know that as a fact. He only heard about a mistaken story. Artorias got his ass kicked and the player did all of his feats against the Dark. Also, Ingward never says that New Londo just had A generation of Darkwraiths, he says that they are THE Darkwraiths, period. He even states that they were born in New Londo and that is where they perished. "Roam again," is in regard to the seal being broken and the Darkwraiths being unleashed from New Londo, not anything else.

>doesn't want to let nature take its course and wants you to seize the flame power after doing some voodoo ritual shit
Kaathe decided it wasn't enough to just let nature run its course anymore. He wanted to break the cycle in favor of the dark just like Gwyn did in favor of fire.

>So many seem to assume that because Lordran is fucked up, it means that the entire world is fucked up
How could anyone make that mistake when the opening cinematic states the opposite?

>there's some spell-descriptions in the game that say the Deep didn't always have horrible insects and shit in it. More or less it's stagnant water in theme and purpose.
There is some sort of connection between the theme of stagnant water and Shintoism or something.
The way I think of the Deep is that if the abyss is what happens when humanity runs wild, the Deep is what happens when humanity Rots.
That is why Aldrich and pals are fat, they are basically dead, bloated corpses of humanity.

Neither. Frampt wanted the Age of Fire to continue, maybe because he's butt-buddies with Gwyndolin or something.
Kaathe wanted to reconstruct the Dark Soul for his own sinister and unknown purposes.
They're probably two heads of an immense hydra, though and in the end may want to create their own age of ancients for themselves.

Obviously I took her tail and did my duty as a human and for the glory of the sun and all its radiance

They're just inbred dragons who got pissy that they didn't look as good as purebreds and orchestrated their whole downfall, raising the ungabunga proto-hollow cavemen into modern humans, bonemen, not-olympians, and fire-lesbians to carry out their bidding.

>You ever notice how everyone conveniently neglects to mention that time the Abyss had help clean up the mess of one the so-called "Great Lords"?
The abyss eventually infected the chaos flame resulting in the Profane Flame.

>"According to legend, the knight Artorias crossed the Abyss, and annihilated the atrocious Darkwraiths."
>his weapons back it up
>Covenant of Artorias ring backs it up
>the fact that Artorias was even a Knight of Gwyn at all implies he had feats and achievements under his belt
>"but we don't see any in-game"
come on dude, it's obvious Arty had accomplishments prior to Oolacile getting fucked over
> "Roam again," is in regard to the seal being broken and the Darkwraiths being unleashed from New Londo, not anything else.
if it were it'd be worded differently, like
>"They cannot be allowed to roam freely"
The fact that it uses past tense at all implies that they existed before New Londo and that the current ones are just New Londo's

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Better ending to series: make those fuckers a part of it, and add another where you join the Buddha Dragons and basically tell the end of the world to go fuck itself and persist to a new Age of Ancients, becoming an Everlasting Dragon after thousands of years, but now the dragons know not to trust those poopskin snakeshitters and this time they win.

Neither

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There's much, much room for doubt about Kaathe, but the fact that he's up front about Gwyn's lies makes me side with him. I feel that Oolacile fucked themselves over with Manus, what with being sorcerers and all.
Nameless King chest piece looks fantastic with it.

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>implying
She sits in the painting waiting for Gael to come back.

...is Gwyndolin Gwyn's Assbaby with Frampt?

hypocrite snake. i will have true freedom.

DSIII shits on dragon covenantors hard in III, and rightly so.

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It's rather dubious on why Gwyndolin has snakes out his ass, but I've always found it amusing that we all take it at face value and don't question it seriously for years. They're just sorta there.

Gwyndolin's appearance is some percentage illusion I'd wager. Not that I can prove it though.

The Covenant of Artorias only says that he made a pact with "the beasts of the Abyss", which might have just been something immediately before he went to Oolacile. Additionally, the ring may have actually been tainted by Manus when Artorias fought him, as Manus is the only real "beast of the Abyss" in the entire game, and they probably couldn't contact Kaathe. Artorias' Cursed Greatsword also exists in an odd situation, as you can peer down into the Valley of the Drakes from Kalameet's boss arena and see that neither New Londo's gate nor bridge exist yet. It's possible there's no New Londo at all during the Oolacile incident, and thus no Darkwraiths. Furthermore, if the Dark cursed Artorias then the Abyssal blade should be able to damage the ghosts, but it can't do so.

Also, again, Ingward repeatedly says the Darkwraiths were first born in New Londo. They don't exist prior to the New Londo incident.

I thought it was a literal representation of him being 'raised by snakes' as if Frampt was the one who brought him up or something

>Also, again, Ingward repeatedly says the Darkwraiths were first born in New Londo. They don't exist prior to the New Londo incident.
And yet big M made the pygmy knights look exactly like them for some reason.

Gwynlet detected

Cute eyes

>Manus is the only real "beast of the Abyss" in the entire game
all that does is emphasize that he did truly eradicate the Darkwraiths and other Dark beasts beforehand
>Artorias' Cursed Greatsword also exists in an odd situation, as you can peer down into the Valley of the Drakes from Kalameet's boss arena and see that neither New Londo's gate nor bridge exist yet.
if he used the standard sword to fight Darkwraiths, then made a pact with creatures of the Abyss so he could continue fighting Darkwraiths, it's fair to say they weren't from New Londo and he destroyed those ones completely
>Furthermore, if the Dark cursed Artorias then the Abyssal blade should be able to damage the ghosts, but it can't do so.
the sword is also damaged and completely corroded, which could've affected its cursing ability, plus it's more likely they just wanted a copy of the sword that did the moves from the boss fight
>Ingward repeatedly says the Darkwraiths were first born in New Londo
and if they were completely destroyed as the "eradicated" part states, then they would have to be born again via different means, in this case via corrupted NL knights

That was Dark Souls 3, made years after 1, and the Pygmy Knights in the Ringed City predate the very idea of Darkwraiths, not to mention Gwyn sealed the Ringed City right after defeating the dragons.

Le Lovecraft reference XD

Make a D&D campaign in the setting and fix the canon for yourself

Shhh, Filianore is sleeping...

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The serpents represent the kosher sandwich. No matter which side you pick, the jews benefit anyway. This gives you the illusion of choice and free agency when you are actually serving the interests of the same shadowy kabal no matter what.

Is it possible that the first flame was stolen from the dragons

FUG
I WOKE HER UP

Artorias eradicated nothing, as the Darkwraiths and Four Kings still clearly exist and the seal has to be placed on New Londo. He also failed to do the job at Oolacile, as the town is still utterly infested when the player gets there. The Abyss Greatsword being corroded shouldn't affect its cursed status at all; if anything it should now be especially cursed, considering that Artorias was practically made out of purple sludge at the time he wielded it.

Here's Ingward's line:

"I watch over the Four Kings, the masters of the Darkwraiths.
The Darkwraiths are the enemies of man, and any living thing that has a soul.
They were born in New Londo, and that is where they perished; the entire city was sacrificed to contain them.
…For that is how great a threat they were…"

The Darkwraiths first came from New Londo. There were no Darkwraiths before them.

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archtrees are hollows who fell to the abyss.

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>tfw you can't save anyone
>now shira hates me

>"borrowed"
And nobody even knows why. It's such a meme series at this point

Berserk or Souls?

I don't think so, and I only thought of this just now: Let's assume the serpents have been around as long as the immortal dragons had been i.e. since the beginning. Kaathe says that Frampt befriended Gwyn, after all, and why wouldn't he? Gwyn and his posse killed the unkillable and are now masters of the universe. Kaathe probably went along with it, as well...until the fire showed signs of fading. Then Kaathe realized that this way of life wasn't sustainable, and so sought a human to take on the mantle Gwyn was leaving behind.

They're not really malignant so much as looking for a new master to serve because they only know as much as anyone else which side is the right path.

Theyre both witholding degrees of info. I wish there was a third option.

Serpent named Braap, all he wants is dungpies

kek

Live in the dark with the Fire Keeper while the Profaned Flame grows, or escape to a world painted by the Dark Soul.
Based.

>Artorias eradicated nothing, as the Darkwraiths and Four Kings still clearly exist and the seal has to be placed on New Londo.
New Londo also clearly exists after Oolacile, as you have stated before by the route to it being gone. Again, Ingward states that the Darkwraiths "were never meant to roam again" and nearly every Artorias-related item suggests he wiped them off the map previously.
>The Abyss Greatsword being corroded shouldn't affect its cursed status at all; if anything it should now be especially cursed
Humanity, the literal essence of Dark, protects against cursing like Basilisks and Seath's crystals. If his sword is covered in corrosive Dark, the same could apply
>The Darkwraiths first came from New Londo.
THESE Darkwraiths did, but if the previous ones were "annihilated" as Ingward states, that means they would have to have been created again. You can't say that all of Ingward's dialogue is to be trusted and then ignore that line, and the one where he says they once roamed previously

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>archtrees grow on Ash Lake
>Ash=fire running out
>water level on Ash lake has risen since the opening
>Age of the Deep is coming

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I mean in the context of the first Dark Souls game. Like betray both serpents or something.

That's already Frampt.

That painting is going to get destroyed by the collapse of reality, especially if the Profaned Flame is growing.

The Bible was right

Anyone got that video where plague is frampt?

Both

I dunno but Kaathe has a covenant. What does Framp even do? He just eats your equipment. Also Kaathe is fun to get to.

>especially if the Profaned Flame is growing.
I don't actually know if it's growing, but the PF is unique in that it doesn't go out. It's the whole reason the Pontiff does what he does.

Frampt likes to stick his little serpent i Gwyndolin’s boipussy

Nobody knows or will ever know. Fuck this game.

Miyazaki wants all the Gaijin to know what it feels like to not understand English well enough to comprehend the plot of Lord of the Rings.

What if Dark Souls was just something that came way before EYE Divine?

Escape your infinite cycles of guilt.

>You've gained Brouzouf
my legs are okay

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Kaathe tells you the truth about the Dark Soul and the Age of Fire. Frampt just tells you to take Gwyn's place. Also Darkwraiths are way cooler than what Frampt has to offer.

All of those Artorias items are built on the legend not being understood as false yet. You don't even get to uncover the truth until you access the DLC. The item description for his soul even reveals this:

"Soul of Lord Gwyn's Knight Artorias,
who was consumed by the Abyss.

The legend that Artorias repelled the Abyss
only told half the story.

It seems that he was defeated, and his
honor preserved, by some unsung hero,
who is the true victor of the Abyss."

Also, if Humanity fends off the dark, that starts raising the question of how Artorias even became cursed by his covenant with the "beasts of the Abyss" in the first place. Again, Ingward makes absolutely no distinction between the Darkwraiths of New Londo and the Darkwraiths Artorias supposedly fought. He even says that Artorias traversed the Abyss to battle them, which ties into all of his dialogue about the Darkwraiths of New Londo residing in the Abyss. By "roam" he means have freedom to do anything. Ingward stresses that New Londo was sacrificed to contain the Darkwraiths, which highly suggests they never actually spread out of the city.

Who should I go with if I want to be a dragonbro

Frampt and Kaathe are the exact same being are you blind?

>There's much, much room for doubt about Kaathe

He lied/ommited the fact he led the 4 Kings to ruin and is implied to have been the reason Manus got fucked up. On the deceit scale bofh snakes are liars; the better question is what they benefit from purging the fire or extending it.

I read something very interesting a while back (not from Vaati) that implied both snakes are part of a hydra -- hold on let me continue -- and they're unable to change the course of history. In simpler terms the snakes aren't dragons and are more like the Dark Souls 3 Unkindled not fit to do anything with the 1st flame (notice how the DS3 Firekeeper is the one doing stuff at the start of the endings). Since the snakes can't participate they engage in chess to pass the time, each undead being their amusement. It's why such a massive evil hydra hasn't ended the world already. Primordial hydra.

Fucked up version of Ash Lake

>[paragrah]
That's sort of what I said here, but without the hydra notion: >He lied/ommited the fact he led the 4 Kings to ruin and is implied to have been the reason Manus got fucked up
I'm of the opinion Oolacile fucked up Manus on their own. Gough dialogue sort of substantiates this, but Oolacile being a land of sorcery does, as well. They were curious, and so drove him mad to learn his sorceries when all Kaathe wanted was a spearheading guy to take down the Age of Fire.
>4 Kings
See, Kaathe gives people the Red Eye orb, right? He wanted the Four Kings, and others, to go to OTHER worlds to gather Humanity, and return. Not continually gather it in their own realm and become corrupt.

ash lake. when humans fall to the deep they turn into tree that grow into archtrees. then these archtrees grow hollow fruit that fall and become hollows

the curse rotted greatwood is in essense a corrupt archtree

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>trees good
>orcs bad
There's not much to comprehend, it's very black and white on purpose. There's a lot of shit in it but it's all very simple. I mean, it IS a children's book. It wasn't meant to be deep.

>The legend that Artorias repelled the Abyss
>only told half the story.
this doesn't say the legend was a full farce and it's only in reference to him failing to save Oolacile rather than saving it on top of his other feats
>if Humanity fends off the dark, that starts raising the question of how Artorias even became cursed by his covenant with the "beasts of the Abyss" in the first place
Dark fends off curses, nowhere did I state Humanity fended off dark. A curse doesn't mean it has to be dark-related, as seen with the transient curses and the curse status itself
>Ingward makes absolutely no distinction between the Darkwraiths of New Londo and the Darkwraiths Artorias supposedly fought
saying they existed, were destroyed completely, and then the new ones were born from knights of New Londo sure sounds like distinction to me
>He even says that Artorias traversed the Abyss to battle them, which ties into all of his dialogue about the Darkwraiths of New Londo residing in the Abyss
that doesn't mean the previous ones couldn't have been born from the Abyss as well, especially with how much Kaathe seems to like convincing people to fuck with the Dark and see what happens

Are hollows before the first flame sentient or are they walking ape-men fruit? So the cycle of hollows is to find the first flame, become powerful, then fall to the deep/dark to create more archtrees in the next cycle?

That'd be really neat, but the greatwood was a tree before being a man. They filled it with plague and shit that was afflicting the settlement.

Fighting Fantasy, actually. I can't get over how fucking Livingstone and Jackson handed him his award.

I agree with the first part but the Curse Rotted Greatwood is explicitly stated as being a tree that the villagers literally just filled up with curses

Are dragons hollows that escaped the cycle and achieved dragon-Buddhahood?

>The Painter girl in the Ashes of Ariandel DLC also inexplicably has the same eyes and skin tone (and even some scales) as the Primordial Serpents.

B-BROS WTF? THE EYES!

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It was funny how obvious it was they didn't give a shit about Miyazaki, or the show.

Lol just turn your brain off bro

Are the other serpents the exact same being too?

She's also immortal. If you kill her, she comes back and says
>Ashen one, I cannot die. I have a world to paint.

Time is convoluted in Lordran hahaha

Artorias going to Oolacile IS the story of Artorias facing the Abyss. That's the confrontation that made him a legend, that was his big solo quest as a knight. The Abyss first became a proper thing with Manus, and only got stronger with the Four Kings. Ingward never says or implies that the knights of New Londo are "new" Darkwraiths. Quite the contrary, he says they are the ONLY Darkwraiths ever. Even his line about Artorias supposedly annihilating them comes well after everything he says about the Darkwraiths of New Londo, and considering that Ingward doesn't even know Artorias is dead, his knowledge of Artorias' exploits is not reliable. No one mentions the Abyss being an issue before Oolacile or New Londo either. Gough even says the Abyss originates from Manus.

Proofs?

You can tell Miyazaki has these in his bathroom when he created the primordial serpents.

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Seath created a lot of freaks in his lab.

It's probably an attempt to tie the game to bloodborne that got scrapped. Irithyll and the pontiff have the same motif of humans turning into big dog things

Chester already connects the worlds though.

no bro, these guys just turn into pilgrim butterflies. they're even pointing towards the castle where the butterflies are

This meme really shows that most people have shitty sense of distance and perspective

The abyss in Oolacile specifically originates with Manus, but that doesn't mean the abyss can't spawn from alternate means. Even in DaS1, the abyss in New Londo is separate from that of Oolacile's/Darkroot's, and in 3 Wolnir's abyss is connected to Carthus.
>Ingward never says or implies that the knights of New Londo are "new" Darkwraiths. Quite the contrary, he says they are the ONLY Darkwraiths ever
>Ingward doesn't even know Artorias is dead, his knowledge of Artorias' exploits is not reliable.
So either Ingward knows everything about the Darkwraiths or he doesn't know shit, because he can't even tell if Artorias was alive or not to face them in New Londo, when he himself has been there protecting it and was the one to cast the seal to flood it in the first place? Or we could acknowledge that his dialogue indicates that they roamed prior to the incident in NL and that in this instance they were born from the knights that used to be in the city.

I want to mess around with ce in ds3 since I beat the game. Should I be weary of messing with soul level and other tomfoolery?

I think Gwyn's children have different mothers.
Perhaps Gwyndolin's mom is a snake lady.

>Everyone Has Standards: If there's one thing that they can both agree on, it's in their disdain for Seath. Kaathe is open about it, referring to him contemptuously as "the traitor." Frampt, however, is more subtle; while he describes Seath diplomatically as "Gwyn's former confidante," he makes his true opinion clear with how little the scaleless dragon's soul is worth to him.

>Go up against Smough and Ornstein
>Want Ornstein's armor and cool lance
>So kill Smough first
>Having trouble because fucking Ornstein is a bitch-ass nigger while I'm trying to attack Smough
>Kill Smough, Ornstein starts doing stupid attacks that I can't seem to evade (lightning pierce)
>Try this 25 more times, get fed up
>Kill Ornstein first this time because I now hate him more than I want his stuff
>Smough gets lightning element and one new attack but is still just as easy
>In this order, I kill them in one try
FINE
WHATEVER
I'LL TAKE THE DAMN HEAVY AS SHIT HAMMER
FUCK

The Abyss in New Londo is the same Abyss from Oolacile, it just got bigger. People have lined up the maps and the Abysses are indeed connected. Wolnir takes places several ages later in a different country after the world has gone to hell a million times more. Ingward knows all about the Darkwraiths of New Londo since that's his job and his dying "my countrymen," line suggests he might have lived there. Artorias, however, is a knight from distant Anor Londo, and Ingward specifically only mentions Artorias in the context of legend, never something Ingward knows as fact or witnessed for himself. Additionally, if the Darkwraiths actually were able to make it out of New Londo, flooding the city wouldn't have helped too much by then.

Gotta earn Ornstein’s armor, much like Kalameet’s tail weapon.

Pilgrim>butterfly>angel>dragon I believe. The hollow trees eventually become archtrees. The Deep is a fucked up (stagnant?) version of Ash Lake. Everything restarts.

DAS1 pure STR build, yes or no?

Don't give up, skeleton.

I probably would've lasted longer if I went back and bought that lightning res ring, but I was pissed and just wanted the Lordvessel. And great joke, being able to warp to the Painted World bonfire but not FROM it, so I gotta go the long way around to leave the damn mountain.

Oolacile is not actually in the same location as Lordran. It wouldn't make any sense for it to be. It just has a weird mirror-image vibe because Fromsoft likes Alice in Wonderland.

For PvE it's easy mode. For PvP, I hope you like BS fishing and doing literally nothing else.

Even if Ingward only knows him by legend, his items still state that he fought the abyss prior to Oolacile, even in the DLC itself with the Silver Pendant stating that he fought it prior to Manus appearing
>One of the ancient treasures of Anor Londo. Presented to Artorias for facing the Abyss.
>Effectively deflects the Dark of the Abyss, especially in its magic forms.
From that, and Ingward's dialogue, we can infer that there were Darkwraiths before New Londo, and that he destroyed them and made the covenant with the Abyss before Oolacile

Damn, seriously? Thought it’d be a cool PVE challenge

Is we humans the "furtive pygmies" mentioned in DS1's opening cutscene? Why are we even alive at this point when there are gods and dragons and shit running around

humans are also gods, they're one of the 4 great races. gwyn intentionally crippled them and hid away their power because they were stronger than him.

Lordran isn't the entire world. Just like there's coins to be used as currency in countries outside it, people live outside this hellscape that don't bear the Darksign.

Frampt and kaathe are actually great ones and bloodborne takes place 2000years after ds

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Furtive pygmy was just the first human. All that wasn’t dragon kind used to be hollows and all we really know for sure is hollows cane form the dark. The lord souls, created by the flame and found near it, made hollows into different races. Gwyn having an Uncle is probably complete bullshit.

Neither. Trusting the Serpents never ends well, just look at Oolacile and New Londo. Kaathe and Frampt are two sides of the same coin, the Sable Church is full of shit, Aldia had the right idea.
Perform a hard resent on the world and wait out the dark with the Fire Keeper.

Gonna need a lot of citation on that.

None, they're playing both sides to suit whatever thier agenda is.

kek, nice

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Why is Souls' lore so fucking good?

Cursed Artorias Greatsword or Uncursed? I feel like Cursed would only be beneficial in New Londo, and I'm already shitting out Transient Curses so I feel that's unnecessary.

play the ringed city DLC dumbass, it's the entire plot.

t. only played DS3
It’s literally a plot point. The furtive pygmy had the dark soul and broke it into pieces and humans have fragments of the dark soul. That’s Humanity.

please help!

You guys are..really reading way too much into this. They are just expies of the serpent from the garden of eden. That's it. They are both liars and obviously creatures of the abyss.

Not even remotely, you just stunlock every boss if you use a heavy weapon and stack poise

Also what the fuck are effigies and what happened to Humanity in DS2, hell what happened to it in DS3? Was the collective Dark Soul through countless humanity really burnt up for kindling the first flame and its constituent bonfires?

Never played the DLC. But that sounds really gay. They should have left it a mystery.

Seriously, for a series called Dark Souls, for it to end up just a pigment in magic paint seems a bit anticlimactic. Unless the new Painted World becomes an infinite universe powered by the infinite nature of the Dark Soul or something else crazy, it seems like a waste.

in DS3 you don't really need humanities since you're an ashen one and essentially made of flames, but the human dregs are related to humanities

Cringe

So are embers burnt humanity?

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His items tell the legend of his fight against the Abyss, and the Oolacile DLC shows us what that fight actually was. Again, his soul even says that the stories were wrong and Artorias died against the Abyss. The Silver Pendant's use of "for" can mean its purpose was for facing the Abyss, not that it was a reward for confronting it. Artorias wouldn't have even had an Abyss to face yet if it was a reward. Even when Ingward speaks of Artorias annihilating the Darkwraiths (after every line he has establishes he's only talking about New Londo), he mentions that Artorias crossed the Abyss to do it. The Abyss didn't exist before Manus was unsealed by Oolacile, which apparently predates New Londo's entire existence. There were no Darkwraiths before New Londo.

What? Oolacile is clearly in Darkroot Forest; by the Chosen Undead's time the city has finished sinking into the earth.

If you compare the shape of Embers to Humanity, it seems that way.

They aren't related to humanities even if they're shaped like bodies, I think they're just meant to be burnt pieces of the enemy you killed or the person who died

Pygmies are gods. Humans are humans.

Someone redpill me on the Abyss

Is dying for Isre-I mean Lordran any better though?

I'll do it on a NG+ or something, the fight's already over. A STR weapon like the hammer fits me just fine, plus it has lifesteal. So it's not a total loss.

Yes.
Of course they're related to humanities. It is literally the humanity icon, just scorched. Unkindled are Undead who were failed to link the fire.
By DSIII it doesn't really matter what it is since it has no consequence to the story. In 1 it's this thing that's eating everything.

>everyone says super Ornstein is harder than super Smough
>you can dodge literally all of his attacks by just rolling into his dick whenever he moves
>only one that doesn't work on is the electric fart which is easy to read
Never had trouble with him, get the spear and ring on every single one of my playthroughs unless I want the hammer or Smough's armor on that one. It's way easier to kill Smough first too due to how thicc he is

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Piss off

Unkindled also lack any trace of dark as seen by them not hollowing and needing dark sigils in order to hollow

Pygmies are humans that sold out the rest of thier race to Gwyn to keep the dark soul at bay and isolate themselves in the in Ringed City.

So Solaire is Gwyn's firstborn, right

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Nah. How about I piss on? On you that is!
*pshhhhhhhhhhhh*
*dabs*
Based

While I agree with the Bloodborne PvP, I feel like pic related is more accurate, at least in my experience.

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>lead elixir and/or shield
Wew, that was hard.

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>Doesn’t matter
Fuck DS3 and it’s fanservice, why not give us something more cohesive with things carrying over? Still could be vague and mysterious but lore consistency, even if the lore is “incomplete” should have been important. Now it seems like there never was a grand secret vision hidden from the players only known by Miyazaki and things were just pulled out of a hat and put in to look cool and because Miyazaki was doing his 18th re-read of Berserk.

Nah, just a fanatic sun praisng bro

Didn't stop people from doing it.
On the other hand, the Bloodletter L2 did.

I'm just too used to evading sideways or backwards instead of forwards. I did figure out that if you hang by his feet it's hard for him to hit you, but he also takes up like 90% of the camera and I can't tell what attack is coming or where to evade to that way. And it was really just the Smough + Ornstein fight that was pissing me off more than the Super Ornstein/Smough fights, it felt like every time Smough left himself open for a hit Ornstein would be there poking/shocking me out of my own attack and I'd burn through Estus like crazy, if not get stunned and combo'd to death.

Is the lore speculation just a waste of time? There might really be no secrets, we’re just writing fanfiction and reading into things too deeply.

BB lore > DeS lore >>>> DaS lore

Why? 99.9% of the time the optimal direction to evade in any Souls game is forward. Bloodborne and DS3 are probably the only exceptions since they're the only ones where bosses can punish you for it

ok you got me there. That was really based

So when the fire is left to fade an age of dark is ushered in. However, in dark souls 2 an NPC states that during a dark age small cinders of the flame will still remain and eventually an undead will reignite the flames, thus repeating an age of fire. By darksouls 3 this cycle has gone on so many times to the point that the spirit of the fire is so weak that it can barely hold the world together. This is why DS3’s world is so chaotic and jumbled up, characters that should be long erased like Andre and Siegward and the darkwraiths are back when they were absent from DS2.
Feeling that it’s finally time to end this cycle for good, you tell the fire keeper, who is sworn to protect the fire, to smother the flame in her hands, this permanently ends the cycle, untils the small embers creates an entirely new flame.
In the age of dark/abyss, characters are still illuminated by their own personal light. The untended graves are pretty much how it looks when the fire fades. During the end of fire, you can longer see you or the fire keeper, meaning that in this world, there will be nothing but pitch darkness

This is true. Havel’s overhead can easily be evaded this way and you end up behind him.

The soul states the legend was only half-right, not that it was completely false, as stated before. There's no reason why he would be given a pendant before facing the abyss, and given that you don't need the Covenant of Artorias to traverse the abyss in the DLC, you can assume that it was a different form of the abyss and not Manus'. Saying Ingward is wrong about one thing when everything else is fine is ridiculous

>Fuck DS3 and it’s fanservice, why not give us something more cohesive with things carrying over?
because miyazaki didin't plan on making 2 more sou

They had something going with the Profaned Flame and the Deep, but the DLC chucks it all out the window.

Learn echolocation, earlet

Baste

If Ingward thinks Artorias is still alive then Oolacile falling would have to be while New Londo is still around since he hasn't left the city since the Darkwraiths showed up, meaning it's possible Artorias fought them before the city was fully flooded. The lack of gate and bridge could just be a skybox oversight rather than intentional

Bandai really is terrible, isn’t it?

>Now it seems like there never was a grand secret vision hidden from the players only known by Miyazaki and things were just pulled out of a hat and put in to look cool and because Miyazaki was doing his 18th re-read of Berserk.
This was obvious from the start and you are retarded if you thought otherwise

Tell that to all the lorefags lol

It's cause the earlier bosses and Tower Knights and such fuckers' overhead smashes that break through all my poise and 90% of my health taught me to evade sideways or keep a good distance until I learn my enemy's patterns and can get bolder with my attacks. Havel did this, both the Asylum and Stray Demons did this, the Capra Demon did this, Tower Knights do this, and the Anor Londo Sentinels and the Bell Gargoyles are especially proficient in this.

So it's learned behavior I just gotta work out sometimes. Being a feet-clinging asshole was how I beat the Iron Golem, but that guy commits to his attacks to hell and back.

How do you add your own meaning to so many things but somehow these random things you are sure aren't intentional? I don't think you do know. I think you just read the wikipedia lore section of fextralife and try to regurgitate it back up on here.

They're both telling the truth.

>Havel did this
dodging forward and behind is optimal for Havel
>Asylum and Stray Demons
dodging forward and behind them is optimal
>Capra Demon did this
Dodging behind him is optimal
>Tower Knight did this
nigger what the fuck are you doing not sprinting up the stairs immediately in Tower Knight
>Anor Londo Sentinels
You can literally dodge roll between their legs and their only attack that can even punish this is the shield slam which is heavily telegraphed (and again easier to avoid when you're behind them)
>Bell Gargoyles
nigger dodging behind them literally lets you cut off its tail

>dude it's all intended
>From has never fucked the skybox detailing, no way
if Artorias fought the Darkwraiths before Londo flooded then went to help Oolacile it makes a hell of a lot more sense than just saying he died before doing anything of worth

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You totally missed my point. Like completely.

WARNING: THERE IS NO COHERENT LORE BEYOND DARK SOULS 1

THERE IS NOTHING TO MAKE SENSE OF
IT IS ALL INTENTIONALLY OBSCURIST SHIT TACKED ON TO DARK SOULS 1'S STORY

THERE IS NOTHING TO FIGURE OUT

YOURE WASTING YOUR DAMN TIME

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The Abyss is the extension of the dark soul

the 4 lord souls, as stated by the into in DS1 have opposite alignments - Light and Dark, Death and Life. The age of gods/age of light is the extension of the lord soul Gwyn has, while the age of dark/the abyss is the extension of humanity. When the dark soul goes out of control, we have the abyss. When the light soul goes out of control, we have the undead curse, when the life soul goes out of control we have demons and twisted flames. The death soul is uncertain, and a lot of people seem to think that the deep is related to death getting corrupted. So the abyss, like very other major aspect and plot point, is just a lord soul twisted and corrupted, until it's aspect goes out of control like an all encompassing dark

Or this is just speculation, items don't matter and the deep is just Bloodbourne reused assets lmao

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your point is
>my interpretations right, yours wrong
at this point it's clear the fans put more thought into the lore than the devs so what's the point in trying to argue about it constantly, especially after all the shit 2 and 3 add

It is you who is wasting time by trying to convince us otherwise

Close.
BB> DeS = DaS1 > DaS3
I don't know what to feel about DaS3's lore. It's far too vague, and I don't feel like it builds meaningfully off of DaS1. So many concepts were just left unexplored, especially something like Gertrude and the Angelic Faith and the serpents. It's fun to lorefag about though.

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more like
>THERE IS NO COHERENT LORE IN THE DARK SOULS SERIES

The half-right part was that he faced the Abyss. The wrong part was that he got killed by it instead of defeating it. Artorias would be given the Silver Pendant before facing the Abyss for the purpose of helping him actually defeat it. The map data shows it's the same Abyss, and Artorias is said to be more vulnerable to the Abyss because he has "nary a murmur of Dark," when speaking to Elizabeth. Heck, she even says that Artorias will lose to the Abyss "without doubt."

It is far more likely that Ingward never met Artorias and only knows of him through the (inaccurate) legends.

There's no way Frampt and Kaathe are one in the same, physically bound together. It doesn't make any sense.

user, I beat all those guys already. That's my point. I got overhead slammed too much and defaulted to sideways evasion and looking for openings instead of bump pecs against the demons and undead that would kill me virtually instantly if they could reach me, so now I'm used to doing it.

I still stand by that if I went and got the lightning res ring I probably could've beat Super Ornstein. I was just pissed and wanted the fight to be over.

more like
>Dude lmao Berserk! I can’t read these Fighting Fantasy gaijin books very well!

Then where does the Covenant of Artorias come from?
>the map data shows it's the same abyss
the map data also shows Izalith should be around the same elevation as Ash Lake, beyond the similarities between Royal Wood and Darkroot there's very little comparison between the abyssal parts, especially since you don't need the actual ring he was rewarded with to traverse it.

Someone fucking explain Gertrude and the Angelic Faith, and their relation to the conflict that happened in Lothric. I don't know shit.

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Gertrude was visited by an angel, whether in her dreams or actually isn't certain, so she starts a cult around them. She gains loyal followers in the blue fat knights, but Lothric wasn't having it so there was a war.

From Software would have had to create a version of the valley that lacked the gate and bridge. If it wasn't meant to mean anything, they could have just reused the pre-existing assets for looking down into the Valley from the lower Darkroot Basin. Also, the Four Kings would have been in the Abyss with Manus at that time.

Basically Lothric civil war between those supporting to keep linking the flame(Way of White) vs those supporting letting the it fade(Angelic Faith). Gertrude was from the royal family that converted to the Angelic faith and was imprisoned for it since Way of White were still in charge and it was considered hearsay.

Could the whole Artorias debacle be due to a split timeline? There are enough differences between events for it to be justified
>timeline 1
>CU doesn't find the pendant
>Manus never goes into a rage and Artorias defeats him
>Sif doesn't recognize the player
>Dusk doesn't mention them as their savior and only talks about Artorias
>legend of Artorias is real

>timeline 2
>CU does find the pendant
>Manus goes into a rage over it, overpowering Artorias and dragging the player into the past
>Sif is saved and recognizes the player
>Dusk realizes the player saved her
>legend of Artorias is done to preserve his memory

The Covenant of Artorias likely comes from Manus kicking Artorias' ass and corrupting him, with the only alternative being some sort of pact with Kaathe. The map data for all of Darkroot Garden, Oolacile, the Valley of Drakes, New Londo, and the Abyss matches up extremely well. Izalith and Ash Lake is a poor comparison, as those areas cannot be seen from each other at all, being the "dead ends" of the interconnected overworld, and the player has no way to judge exact distance in the Great Hollow anyway. The player is clearly meant to be going extremely far down in the tree, and making the tree any longer for world map purposes that can no longer be seen would just be pure misery to the player.

The Pendant was split in half and scattered regardless of the Chosen Undead finding it. Manus would already be berserk.

Holy fuck you retard. Just summon Solaire. He will never deal the finish blow but he can pretty much solo Ornstein while you kill Smough.

if Manus was in a beastly state he wouldn't just spawn a ring from nowhere, and Kaathe wouldn't do it since he clearly enjoys spreading the abyss and wouldn't want someone who wants to put a stop to it.

You're like 5 hours too late. And I haven't summoned anyone yet besides Mildred once to see what it did since I spend 99% of my time Hollowed and just return to human form to kindle bonfires. And it wouldn't feel like I mastered and beat the boss if I just let an NPC do it for me.

So I'm guessing each dark souls game takes place during the fading of the first flame which means all of civilization is basiaclly fucked right?

It was probably a ring Artorias was already wearing that got corrupted while the Abyss was kicking his ass and already warping him. If it comes from Kaathe, he might have provided the ring as a deception to stay in good graces (for a time) since Elizabeth seemed certain that Artorias would lose no matter what. There don't appear to be any other "beasts of the Abyss" that could have given him the ring, and Alvina probably isn't of the Abyss.

They were both full of shit. I don't get why people don't understand this.

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>There don't appear to be any other "beasts of the Abyss" that could have given him the ring
almost like there could've been a different Abyss and the one in Oolacile was just that; Oolacile's

The first time I did it I cheesed them with poison arrows. Just staying behind the pillars.

Yeah. It's mostly so there's a good excuse why most everyone tries to stab you.

There is literally no evidence for that. The experts on the Abyss all say it is the only Abyss, and it only ever arose in Oolacile and New Londo. The Darkwraiths in particular were unique to New Londo. Also, your proposal encounters the same problem that Kaathe providing the ring does; Abyssal beings handing Artorias the means to destroy their entire world for no reason.

Artorias was a knight of Gwyn before ever facing the Abyss, so he wasn't some nobody, but his only encounters with the Abyss took place at Oolacile.

fatty DLC knight armour

>Skeleton Beasts in the Tomb of Giants
Fucking goddamn hell
What the fuck

>The experts on the Abyss all say it is the only Abyss
Ingward can't be an expert if the only other knowledge he has of it is a legend
>The Darkwraiths in particular were unique to New Londo
as stated, they were born in New Londo, but that doesn't definitively make them the first
>but his only encounters with the Abyss took place at Oolacile.
not with those item descriptions

>Remember that "succeeding Gwyn" sounds really sweet too as long as you're not aware of what Gwyn's been doing for the last couple thousand years.

What's that?

Being on fire

One below the dark but still higher than doublehell and spookytown.

>sets himself on fire forever
until the flame is fading again

Ingward was a healer who lived in New Londo and actually flooded it alongside his fellow Sealers. He was present for the events that transpired there, then he maintained watch over the seal and made sure nothing worrisome or suspicious occurred. Ingward was also knowledgeable about curses, even carrying a Ghost Blade. The Darkwraiths are the first Darkwraiths by virtue of being the ONLY Darkwraiths; not even Oolacile had them, and Darkwraith is a term specifically referring to the knights of New Londo. The item descriptions you speak of tell only of Artorias' legend, which the DLC item descriptions elaborate on as false.

LotR is not a children's book you pseud. Moral ambiguity does not automatically entail maturity.

if Artorias hadn't fought the Darkwraiths before, the legends wouldn't mention them, let alone Ingward stating he fought them before. You can't say the concept of Darkwraiths existed in legend only for them to originate hundreds of years later after he passed when New Londo got attacked

The """""good"""" snake literally wants to burn you alive, while the """"bad""" snake wants to make you a fucking king.

Go Kaathe or go to hell.

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>Lordran is the equivalent to Mount Olympus
this is an apt comparison, never thought of it like that before

Imagine being some incel dork obsessing over video game lore lmao have sex incels.

>he says while shitposting on Yea Forums(nel)
no, (You)

both of them

>Gravelord Nito
That was fucking fun as hell! I thought the skeletons would be a problem but Nito killed them as much as I needed them to die. Good boss.

tl;dr FROM could have had the lore make sense by putting ONE Darkwraith in Oolacile.

As it stands now it makes no fucking sense because New Londo didn't exist until after he was already dead, directly contradicting what his weapons state. Brilliant.

This is the kind of thread that makes me realize this place is infested with redditors.

Yea Forums was always reddit, who are you kidding, newfag?

The legends were already fake to begin with; from there it could spiral even further out of control. Also, the Darkwraith legends obviously started after the New Londo incident, not after the Oolacile incident.

Basically this
Why would I continue to perpetuate a cycle that leaves not only me, but everyone who came before and after me, in a fate worse than death until the end of time?

can we get more lothric art please

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here, I have a few

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neither. both serpents are )ews

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Why would they amend the legends when there are items like the Covenant to back it up? Let alone Ingward saying that the Darkwraiths have roamed before which clearly suggests a prior version of them fighting

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Because ages past and the truth about Artorias was intentionally covered up. Also, Ingward only says "roam again", which can merely mean having the freedom to move at all (not being sealed by the water).

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Based

You can't cover up an actual item that belonged to him, you might as well make those same claims about every item character-related in the series. Ingward also speaks about "roam again" with or without the Lordvessel, meaning he's not trying to deter the player from opening the seal

It's weird seeing Priscilla in this family fan art when, if she even was related to them, she was shut away as a freak a la The Man in the Iron Mask.

He did have the ring, but the ring's existence doesn't mean he ever fought the Darkwraiths, went to New Londo, or that New Londo even existed before he died. When Ingward talks about the Darkwraiths he's explaining why he's there and what the purpose of the seal is. The wikidot page also says that he only mentions the "roam again" line after the player has obtained the Lordvessel.

I don't get the hate DaS3 gets. As much as I prefer DaS1 and BB over it, I still think it is a competent and solid game. It's a very inoffensive sequel, imo.

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Sigmeyer a best
Dude is cool and I wish he could've come along for more adventures

The plot of Dark Souls is literally just 'with jews, you lose'.

Right, because he fought the original Darkwraiths that were annihilated as Ingward states, and has items to back it up
>wiki
the one I'm looking at doesn't specify when the line is stated

Just had a small epiphany when I saw this pic. What if Priscilla wasn't Gwynevere & Seath's daughter as its commonly believed, but Nameless King's?
That would explain why Gwyn killed all the dragons because he and the other gods feared making more Lifehunt crossbreeds and would make Nameless King joining the dragons make sense.

Maybe. Just maybe.

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There are no "original" Darkwraiths predating the fallen knights of New Londo. "Darkwraith" as a term specifically relates to them and their order, and all of Ingward's lines talking about the Darkwraiths, New Londo, and the Abyss come before the "annihilated" line, meaning that he's talking about the same Abyss and the same Darkwraiths. Anyone hypothetically predating the New Londo knights wouldn't have even been called a Darkwraith.

The Wikidot wiki seems to predate the others, and I've found it to easily be the most reliable one for Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. darksouls.wikidot.com/ingward

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there is no reason for him to state "annihilated" then if they weren't completely gone before, and in the world of DaS it's not like things haven't had completely general descriptors before like Giants in 1 and 2 and the copious use of "demon" across the series to describe non-Izalith entities. Alternatively you could assume New Londo happened pre-Oolacile and Artorias helped beat them back beforehand. Regardless, Artorias did have a hand in slaying the Dark and forming a Covenant before dying in the DLC

>goddammit son I said you could keep the dragon not fuck it
>>>>>

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The Profaned Flame is the one thing that confuses me the most out of everything else going on, since a flame that never goes out would solve everything, but its appearance seems like it's some kind of punishment for the Profaned Capital. It doesn't have any life associated with it like the Chaos Flame and demons.

no the dreg heap and fillianores rest are the same thing both leading to another age of ancients

I would

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Which waifu is best?
Solaire is DS1 Waifu, obviously

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Neither.
Both simply want to control the fate of man. They use different means to achieve the same goal.

The thing to realize after all the games is this.
Never trust a serpent, especially them toothy motherfucklers.

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>darksouls.wikidot.com/ingward
>THEY WERE BORN IN NEW LONDO
Huh.

that looks so comfy
maria or priscilla for me

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>you could assume New Londo happened pre-Oolacile and Artorias helped beat them back beforehand.
The difficulty comes in the fact that:

>Gwyn specifically bequeathed a fragment of his Lord Soul to the Four Kings of New Londo; obviously he wouldn't do this if there was the slightest hint of Abyss.
>He did this shortly before he went to kindle the First Flame - why would he have done it earlier? All that would do is reduce his power and increase those of the humans. He'd only do it when he was just about to leave.
>New Londo's gate and architecture cannot be seen even when overlooking their location in the DLC despite developers stating it's "300 years" before the timeline of the game
>Frampt has been waiting 1000 years since Gwyn linked the fire
It just doesn't link up. It's just a (quite big) mistake in the narrative that they didn't think about before making content revolving around it.

The Undead asylum demon

Best ass in the game.

Ingward's already saying things we know can't be true, such as learning from Artorias when he'd been dead for ages. and the legends were already lies. The whole point of the DLC was to show that Artorias was a fraud beyond the bare minimum standards to be among Gwyn's four knights. Artorias couldn't have possibly traversed the Abyss when it didn't exist yet, and there's only a single Abyss. It doesn't even go away, it's just stopped from expanding. Elizabeth specifically states Artorias is guaranteed to lose against the Dark, so it's not like he had a reputation for defeating the Darkness at the time of the Oolacile incident.

The top experts on the Abyss, across several time periods, say there's one Abyss that started with Manus at Oolacile, and the Darkwraiths were specifically the knights of New Londo, which was destroyed by the Sealers to stop the Darkwraiths. The redone Valley of Drakes seen from Kalameet's boss area suggests New Londo didn't exist yet.

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>Ingward's already saying things we know can't be true, such as learning from Artorias when he'd been dead for ages.
What exactly does he say he "learned" from Artorias?
If he's talking about YOU learning from him, then I take that as the developers teasing a potential encounter with him from before the game scenario was fully realized, hence why he ended up being in the DLC.
Additionally, whether he lived or died is not mentioned in the legend at all. His contemporary, Ornstein, is still alive, after all so it's not as if they die of old age. It could even be that the actual legend itself is known only to the gods and Ingward, a particularly enlightened human, is an exception who knows a lot, but not the whole story.

>The whole point of the DLC was to show that Artorias was a fraud beyond the bare minimum standards to be among Gwyn's four knights.
That's just mean-spirited. The DLC shows that the Abyss is an actual threat, not that Gwyn's knights sucked. If the aim was to show that Artorias was weak he wouldn't be one of the best boss fights in the entire genre.

>Artorias couldn't have possibly traversed the Abyss when it didn't exist yet, and there's only a single Abyss.
It's implied Artorias faced Manus in the Chasm of the Abyss which is a location in the game, and this is signified with the blue gunk that trails from that area right the way up to Artorias' boss arena and which you see emanating from him.

>Elizabeth specifically states Artorias is guaranteed to lose against the Dark
Elizabeth is a fucking naysayer mushroom; her kingdom just got wrecked by the Abyss, of course she's going to be like "Oh we're all fucked, if it can fuck my home no one can win surely".

>The top experts on the Abyss
I find this term hilarious for some reason. But the rest of the post is completely true and makes it extremely difficult to resolve the issue with Artorias' weapons' claims.

The fact that Ingward says the player might be able to find Artorias and learn his Abyss-traversing techniques from him almost certainly means that the legends don't say Artorias died. Also, if the information was only known to the gods and Ingward, it'd probably be less of a legend and more of a confidential fact. If the info was kept solely among Gwyn's military and servants like the Sealers, then there wouldn't even need to be a legend; they could be trusted knowing that Artorias failed and something else defeated the Dark. If anything that would be more motivation to seal New Londo.

The Abyss was already established as a threat in the base game, especially since it ties into one of the only two endings and you need to go through a whole other area just to get a ring that lets you survive in it. Artorias was not the man the legends made him out to be; he was a knight of Gwyn but not more than that. Also, he was juiced up on the Abyss in the boss fight, much like the denizens of Oolacile. When I said "Abyss didn't exist yet", I was referring to your notion that there were "proto"-Darkwraiths. Ingward says Artorias crossed the Abyss to fight them, yet there was no Abyss until Manus. Elizabeth is the godmother of Oolacile's princess and a guardian of a special sanctuary, so she likely has genuine knowledge of the powers and events going on.

Also, if you're going to chalk up "learn from Artorias" to a scrapped idea from the base game that was replaced with the grave and Sif battle, then that's total speculation. Along those lines, one could argue that From never expected to have a chance to make DLC and cover Oolacile, so they just reworked Artorias into New Londo as a rush job. That would be why the Cursed Greatsword of Artorias exists, along with fighting Darkwraiths.

Attached: Oscar tackles New Londo, will probably die there too.jpg (750x815, 227K)

Why do darkwraiths have so much poise?

>your notion
I'm not the guy you were responding to before that.

>Also, he was juiced up on the Abyss in the boss fight, much like the denizens of Oolacile.
I don't think he just HAPPENED to get put up to a similar power level as Ornstein just because of the Abyssal corruption. Seems a bit convenient. He's obviously an accomplished fighter otherwise he wouldn't have a fucking dire wolf companion and a slew of admirers who are all also accomplished combatants.

>Ingward says Artorias crossed the Abyss to fight them, yet there was no Abyss until Manus.
We don't know the details of the origins of Manus or the Abyss so we cannot say that for sure.

>rush job.
Wouldn't be surprised. But it's still canon and still contradicts itself.

neither tells the whole truth, each is using you for their own aims, but i think the 'evil' one is actually the more reasonable request

Attached: Lorian, Elder Prince. Lothric, Younger Prince.jpg (2048x1536, 656K)

>such as learning from Artorias when he'd been dead for ages
What if ingward is just that old?

Also not the same guy but I just figured that arty was sent off to the abyss by gwyn got all the way to manus past all that crazy shit and then gave his last effort to make sure his dog didnt get obliterated. You show up and finish it and give his remains to the his gf and she goes off saying how much a hero he was and the legend grows from there over the years.

A bit later gwyn goes poof and kaathe enacts the plot with the 5kangs to make the darkwraiths since after manus the abyssal shards was spread across all the worlds so they had to be recollected with lifedrain and red eyes.

Without the man from the old legend whos grave is hidden behind a hydra or a magic door that andre hold the keys to New Londo had to be sealed after the abyss resurfaced, ingward seems to maintain hope that they will be defeated with the help of artorias eventually but also knows of the lord vessels purpose which is some pretty classified stuff.

Then again gwyn covering things up to make himself look good seems to be the thing going by 3s DLC

Perhaps it needs to be fed with something, like how Izalith gave her soul to Chaos.

There were only 3 types of entities in the age of ancients.
The Dragons
The Arch trees
Those who would come from the dark, and eventually become the gods and man once the First Flame surfaced at the depths of the world.

The humans and gods are born of the arch trees, which is why we also turn back into both them and their food. Even the giants return to the trees.

It seems that the "profanity" of the flame stems from the fact that it burns only human flesh.

So while in concept it sounds like an awesome never-ending power source, it's actually a perverse version of that which specifically seemed to go directly against what was actually desired (protection of the Capital).

Artorias was still probably a strong knight, but he fought the Dark once and lost. He was also probably weaker than Ornstein before the Abyss power-up, which would explain why Ornstein was the captain, and the Abyss likely altered his fighting style too. The R2s on his normal greatsword are rather traditional power strikes, while the Abyss version's spins and flips probably mirror the leaps and flurries of the Oolacile Bloatheads. Also, bringing a wolf cub he taught how to use a sword along probably wasn't a good idea and likely helped contribute to his death. It might have indicated that he was too careless, especially since the wolf was clearly far from fully grown.

Elizabeth and Gough tell us about the origin of the Abyss, along with Chester. Gough specifies that the Abyss emanates from Manus. There presumably wasn't an Abyss down there before Manus' awakening/unsealing, considering that the people of Oolacile could go there at first without any issues.

Oolacile happened before New Londo, and the lack of a gate suggests that even if it didn't, there was no seal at the time requiring Ingward to be utterly shut off from the world. If Artorias died in his era, he'd have likely known about it.

>what happened to Humanity in DS2
It had already been collecting back into manus' daughters probably

There was an idea that
>Humans, are not actually “short” as the name “pygmy” would suggest, merely all other types of beings with powerful souls are larger. Perhaps this has to do with power or pride. That said, some human enemies still tower over the player character. The basis of this could be in old video games where enemy sprites are much larger than your own for visual clarity; or it could also represent the pride and power of that lifeform’s soul(s).
>Due to Dark Souls III’s introduction of the Pygmy Kings of the Ringed City it is a little blurred as to whether the Dark Soul was in fact found by a group of beings or if there was a particular “Furtive Pygmy”. However, none of the lore actually contradicts the concept that Manus was the Furtive Pygmy himself and that he simply had no desire to become a deity.

This is correct. There were
>Everlasting [Stone Dragon]
>Ancient/Archdragon [Kalameet, Ancient Dragon]
>Dragon [Gaping, Sinh, Midir]
>Drake [Hellkite Drake, Stormdrake]
>Wyvern [Lothric Wyvern, Ancient Wyvern]

And archtrees, which are part of the life cycle of Giants.

>Then, from the Dark, they came
Hollows are humanoid life forms from the Dark.
Hollow is the true form of humans, Lords, Gyrm and all other humanoids that carry Souls.

This is not correct.

Gods in Dark Souls are literally just Elves from Tolkien but without pointy ears and given a different name. This is reflected in the fact that all their naming conventions are literally Tolkien Elvish words (Londo, Anor, etc).

>Aldia literally spoils the twist from The Ringed City
What do you mean?

The profaned flame is probably whats left of the incineration chamber at the end of 2.
All the shit in the area hints back to the curse of want which is similar but different as it takes mans aspect of hunger much further than the flame ever could.

>Oolacile happened before New Londo
I said that?

also new thread?

It's more likely that the "gods" aren't even a different race, just a clan with incredible power. In all of the Souls games, the stronger a being is in soul power, the larger it typically gets. This is even true for the Darkwraiths. Similarly, some of the "gods" are the same size as a human, as seen with Quelana, Ciaran, and potentially the Painting Guardians.

>of the flame stems from the fact that it burns only human flesh.
?

>4 great races
lol

So each Soul belongs to a race
According to you, each race in Dark Souls:
>Tall people (Gods)
>Short people (Gods as well apparently even though they specifically say "Humans")
>Demons
>Dead people

Seriously. Think a little more before you post.

If Ingward was "just that old", then Oolacile occurring before New Londo wouldn't prevent him from learning that Artorias died in combat.

darksouls3.wikidot.com/spell:profaned-flame

I was saying that gwyns inner circle may have covered it up to save face

Strange. What the fuck.

Sorry, your post was kind of a mess. You seemed to be saying Ingward would be within the circle of people who knew the truth even if it was covered up.