Here's another attempt at casualizing the fighting game genre while missing the point

go full on crossplay to fill the niche

You need a large pool of similarly skilled people for 1v1 or else every match is just a stomp one way or another.

>people don't like seeing their character get hit for 6 seconds straight with no way to interrupt or lessen the effect
Some games have some kind of Breakaway/Combo Breaker system.

I think Snoy doesn't allow it unless it's for Fortnite or some other huge game/publisher. I believe most developers of multiplayer games these days would want to have it.

You need a large pool of players that are not pussies, that don't stop playing because they get stomped and actually tries to understand the game and learn it, but there isn't a lot of people like that, that's not the game's fault.

>
>This gen of fighting games has been proof enough that casual MAY actually try out fighting games when those have good amount of single player content and cool presentation. That's all they need.

Basically this. I cringe everytime I see fighterz receiving 100s and 90s when as a fighting game it's actually a 65 to 75 at best.

Marvel vs Capcom failed?
>inb4 Infinite

That's its kusoge rating. Games like Marvel, Vampire Savior, Mortal Kombat, DBFZ, Heritage, Soul Calibur, etc, aren't evaluated like legit games

>everything is wrong everything sucks!
shut up you underage faggot

because of sony blocking crossplay, theres pretty much a lose lose situation when it comes to fighting games and neither you nor anyone knows how to make up for sony's faggotry

>Fighting game engines cannot go beyond 1v1 format and the ones who've tried failed miserably
It'd be cool if any games did a beat 'em up story mode again like Tekken 6 (and I guess 3, 4, and 5 did it too but I never played those). Maybe even make the boss fights play out traditionally.

For Honor is literally a simplified SC2 translated into an arena game. It's still heavily played.

GG Isuka did that, as well as 4 player matches. It turned out very broken but quite fun if played as a party game.

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Them's Fightin' Herds is promising.
"real" fighting game mechanics with no autocombos or cooldowns or whatever, but still a focus on generally having fairly simple execution and usually a possible very simple combo for each character, without sacrificing high level stuff. And then if it ever comes out an interesting singleplayer with rpg style overworld exploration and enemy encounters and stuff. We'll have to see how it turns out but if it lives up to even half of it's potential it'll be one of the best story modes in a modern fighting game.

NRS games have gone the opposite though, they started basic as fuck and have been progressively adding depth to them.
It's still relatively casual and awkward to play, but the is effort.

I see no issue with GBFV going casual. Anime games based on gachas are never going to be taken seriously as competitive games anyway, and nobody expects a gacha spinoff to have top-of-the-line competitive game mechanics. You might as well aim for casuals then.

>Shit game
>It's stuffed full of cute girls to try and distract the player

Every time.

Better than a shit game without cute girls at least

The cooldown shit is hilarious to me though. Moves in fighting games already have a "cooldown" known as "recovery frames" it's so crazy to me to just arbitrarily decide that now it also has an additional cooldown.

>it's so crazy to me to just arbitrarily decide that now it also has an additional cooldown.
You mean like charge moves?

In your picture what you see its a Cygames decision, not ArcSys's. Since the game was announced they were very clear with it being aimed at the fan of the mobage not familiar with fighting games.
It only bean issue be if renowned franchises like SF or Tekken went on a similar route.

Difficult inputs have nothing to do with what makes fighting games actually interesting.

Yeah a lot like charge moves, especially if it's some fucked shit where there's no universal charge time. I think it was SF4 that had that issue real bad? But I still couldn't imagine still adding an additional second delay after a sonic boom even with the way charge moves work.

Talking and discussion is what keeps games alive. And having a waifu war in it is basically immortalizing it. Also Ferry best grill.

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Why aren't you playing Tekken?

The biggest current problem holding back fighting games is blocked crossplay. It's probably the genre hurt most by fractured player bases. Fighting games are niche and online is the present and the future

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I really wonder how this game will perform. GBF is a huge game a shit ton of people play, so maybe it'll still sell real good? They're really targeting the casuals but still paying people like Daigo and Fuudo to play it. Very confusing marketing. And seeing how it's not even trying to be competitive in a market where almost all the latest editions of all the fighting games series are out it's not like anyone is going to drop their game for this.

>sleeper hits like DBZF
Dragon Ball is one of the biggest IP's in Japan and is known worldwide, it sold on the name alone.

Because it feels like mushy shit, I don't even buy that its mechanically super deep, feels like its hard to excel for the same reasons as call of duty where the skill floor and ceiling are compressed.

I think if the characters feel unique enough and relatively balanced, it will do well. The reason DBZF didn't do well after release imo is that the characters played too similarly and (maybe because of that, or even, in spite of it) the game felt very poorly balanced.

GBF looks good, is part of a popular franchise. They can easily add more characters. They just need to make the characters unique (gameplaywise), balanced and feel good to play, which to be fair is simple to say but really hard to do.

Sony getting their heads out of their asses would be the single best thing that could happen for the genre

Yeah but I feel like they locked in their casual audience too much. Like they're super fucking convinced that people who play a mobile game as actually interested in a fighting game. DBFZ and P4A (maybe also BBtag, never played it) did a good job of hitting that sweet spot where the casuals could have their fun but at least for a time the games resonated with a more long term crowd. For me, the marketing and game itself don't match at all. Paying pro players to play a game like this just doesn't make any sense. Casuals don't know/care who these guys are and fighting game enthusiasts don't care about something this casual. They should have just made a side scrolling beat em up I think. That way they could have more characters, wouldn't have to pretend to care about balance and variety and could just have hundreds of characters. Cause I feel like that's what the GBF community cares about.

yea, they sell because of shock value, normies play the story mode for 10 hours, then they never touch it again, hardcore fighting game players, play it for a couple of months then never play it again because of the fucking horrible combat.

Let them do whatever they want with new IPs, they are allowed to exist just like the shit ton of fighting games that were released around mid 90's/early 00's that almost no one cared about.

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If the goal is just to sell more copies, just beef up the single-player content.

You cant casualize an e-sport that requires dedication on the part of the player
Fighting games were never for casuals, ever and they never will be.

I liked WakuWaku7, it was a lot of fun.

I actually liked WW7. I'd love to see it return in some way.

It's obviously a game made for fans of the IP first and fighting game fans second, same as DBFZ and, to a lesser degree, BBTAG. I think it's less of a case of them trying to get the casual audience and failing and more a case of them being licensed to make this game and to make it accessible and them doing as they were asked by the people who are paying to have the game made.

Just make a beat em up, that could actually be really fun with GBF. Have hundreds of characters and all that shit that doesn't make sense in a fighting game.

GG Judgement also did it.

>It's still heavily played.
Really? Is the scene any good?

They are already doing a sort of action RPG.

Yeah it sounds like the guys at Cygame's like fighting games and just wanted to make one without realizing that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to make for GBF. And ArcSys is just like whatever give me the money.

Where's Guilty Gear Xth

True, but I think a beat em up with some RPG elements like Dragon's Crown would be just what the doctor ordered for GBF. Something multiplayer with more than 2 max players, lots of characters and locales to do, simple genre to play, etc.

>Guilty Gear Xth
It'll be at ArcRevo.

That's the rumor floating around right now isn't it? I'm not so sure, between BBTag, GBFV, and DBFZ I'd be surprised to see another full title come out of them so soon. But, I'd be so hyped, I got into Xrd a little bit a year ago and liked it quite a bit, would love to be there day 1 this time.

It will do well in Japan but I doubt it'll catch a lot of attention in other countries.

Putting the issues of casuals aside, I want to see more mechanical experimentation.

For example, while it bit it in the ass due to Nintendo marketing it as an arena fighter due to it, Pokken's phase shift system does a lot to encourage adaption and put a emphasis on neutral play, and how it handles attack heights is really interesting, with almost the entire moveset of each fighters having specific height based invulnerabivlities and vulnerabilities, so the height system is less about block pressure/mixups and more about forcing whiffs and interupting other people's combos with moves of the right heiught and mixups based on that

Without a doubt, game is only in English and Japanese so that limits them right from the get go. The more I think about this game the more I wonder why it's even being made. I'm assume we got a big fighting game fan calling shots at Cygames.

At least see their characters make a cameo appearance. Who holds the rights to that IP btw?

I think it's a pretty safe bet. Between Daisuke, the director of the series, having already talked about working on the next game in an interview and the president of ArcSys assuring the audience at last year's EVO that Daisuke and Team Red are working on "something Guilty Gear" it would be weird to not announce it at the big tournament where Guilty Gear is featured that they've put a lot of focus on.

It's also worth keeping in mind that not only does Team Red not work on those games you mentioned, though there is some crossover in the staff between games, the last full release from Team Red was Xrd Revelator which came to consoles in 2016, seeing as Rev 2 was just an expansion and not a full release. That's plenty of time between then and now, they're close enough to announcing the new Guilty Gear to have openly talked about and ArcRevo seems like the perfect place to announce it, so I don't think it's that unrealistic that it ends up being there.

The problem with the fighting game genre is that you can't do anything that deviates from the norm because the FGC is hard resistant against dramatic changes.
How about you wait until the game comes out to see if it's "casualizing the genre".

How many 2d fighters have the retarded hitbox that forces block and interrupts spacing and movement? Get rid of that shit and fighting games might stand a chance against modern action games. That and shorten combos back to before Killer Shitstink corrupted fighting games forever.

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it doesn't matter because fighting games will never be good when online is their focus

I think they're trying to reach a new audience that would otherwise never interact with Granblue, it's kind of a redundant move since they have that PG title also in the making.

Alright I see, yeah I certainly hope it's announced this year for a 2020 release. They have been talking GG a lot lately, and it's absence from EVO this year. I need to get back into Xrd though before that happens though. I wanna be locked and loaded day 1.

>How many 2d fighters have the retarded hitbox that forces block and interrupts spacing and movement?

What?
What are you even talking about?

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saying it's not the game's fault will never fix the problem tho

Proximity blocking I think, which actually gives a lot of new tech to some attacks so I don't see the issue.

Good point, I literally started playing GBF cause of the trailer for the PG. Never even would have known about the game if not for that.

Pokken is fantastic and it's a shame people think it's casaulshit

unironically one of the best fighters of this gen alongside KI

What problem? Most fighting games are made for the fighting games audience, there's nothing wrong with that, some try to make it more accessible but end up failing because it doesn't appeal to the usual audience for being too simple and doesn't appeal to the casuals because they still don't want to learn the basics. We all know what happens when devs try to aim for a wider audience and we all hate it when they do it but when it's about fighting games they are in the wrong for not doing it, i don't understand it.

There are some problems with the fighting genre. 1) They casualize it to the point you just mash a button until one of you die or 2) They are so complex that unless you spend literal years playing it you won't be able to be decent at the game.
1) and 2) can be exemplified with BlazBlue alone. In Blazblue you can use the "Stylish" mode with any character when playing local vs. This mode performs combos for you when you mash buttons. It's stupid.
If you play without "Stylish" mode you have too many things to remember. You can play just knowing how to jump, knowing some combos and using your powers to your advantage, but if you don't know how to dash cancel, jump cancel, rapid cancel, etc you won't be able to win against certain opponents that know these mechanics and many more that you are not even aware off. Yeah, the tutorial cover all of these, but try to remember all that in the midst of a battle.
I'd like to see some kind fighting game that has mechanics similar to Elsword. In Elsword pvp you can use your mana to drop to the ground and be invincible, or even activate a Rage mode that can be activated anytime, even when you are being comboed, to counterattack your opponent if he is going for an infinite or a very strong attack. The disadvantages to Drop is that you won't be able to use mana for your own attacks if you do it a lot and the disadvantage of using Rage only to counterattack is that it doesn't last long if you use it with just one charge (it gives you extra attack power for a while and can be activated at 1, 2 or 3 charges; more charges = more duration).

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I meant player vs player, not characters

A 1v1 fighting game with a user-controlled camera, full 3D movement, customizable characters with small move sets, and where the depth comes from interacting with and using the stages to your advantage.

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>but if you don't know how to dash cancel, jump cancel, rapid cancel, etc you won't be able to win against certain opponents that know these mechanics and many more that you are not even aware off. Yeah, the tutorial cover all of these, but try to remember all that in the midst of a battle.
That's only going to be a problem if you're just getting started with the game, by that point it would be pretty ridiculous to expect said player to be able to defeat someone who is already familiar with advanced techniques.

whatever clusterfuck of a game you described is not a fighting game anymore. Pass

Sounds like the sort of stuff that sounds cool on paper but might shit the bed quite badly when you try to add nuance into the project.

Except the 100 other dbz games except xenoverse sold like trash.

Yeah, but that's true of every game. Even regurgitated fighters can shit the bed. See Capcom.

Yeah but the formula of a fighting game already works. Shit like MVCI has a good fighting system buried under shitty roster decisions and SFV while worse than other SFs is still way better than a truly bad fighting game. In other words the core gameplay is at the very least passable, the same thing is most likely not going to happen with an idea that's totally different and assumes depth will just be there by interacting with the environment without actually trying to point out how is it that said interactions are deep.

>does it have to take for companies to realize that casuals don't like being patronised either?
That isn't true though. They want to be patronised but not in an obvious way. They don't want to beat by what you see as casual or cheap aspects, and don't want it to be too obvious when they only won because of them. But ask them to do something basic like, learn to space your buttons, focus on anti airing or study what beat you and suddenly the entire genre is at fault.

Which is why something like adding cooldowns or autocombos isn't an instant easy way to get people playing. The majority of people who complain are casuals who don't even look into it, they just don't want to sit at what appears to be the baby table. Even though mechanically the cooldowns in GBV look fine, they recharge quick and the only ones that seem to take a while are ex moves or moves that send out something which is active for a long time. Really where casualisation hurts is the more minute stuff. Just look how many modern games really don't reward you block shit, or how many let you easily ignore projectiles. Stuff like this makes the casual feel good without a flashing sign of we made it all easier, they can ignore the neutral and easily keep up pressure.

If I'm bad at shooting games I can still get a kill here of there, maybe complete the objective or help my team. I don't feel like a complete sack of shit.

If I'm new to fightning games, I'm gonna get my shit kicked in by everyone. Constantly. It only gets fun if I decide to stick around despite the bad feedback, train, and fight someone who is greener than me.

Yeah it's fun fightning someone with the same skill level as you, but you get your shit kicked in so much by then that most people just get frustrated and leave, rightfully so. It takes a different mentality to enjoy the climbing the mountain that is fightning games, and it will NEVER be mainstream because of it.

Yeah, of course, but adding mechanics willy nilly to cover "flaws" or to cover "you will be able to escape this infinite combo if you do this" moments doesn't necessarily ameriolate the combat. The best thing is to keep it simple, easy to play, hard to master. Look at Smash Brothers. The only real difficulty in Smash is knowing when to dodge and when to use X move. Dodging and performing attacks is not hard. And it's not that difficult to learn all the moves of your character and get used to ledge grab, gravity, etc.
Skullgirls comes to mind too. It has 6 buttons, and can be pretty tricky at the beginning. But once you get used to comboing your punches and kicks, you'll notice that you have a lot of techniques at your disposal with just 2 directional commands and a button (no need for strange combinations of directional presses to perform attacks). The only flaw it has, in my opinion, is the jail free explosion when someone tries an infinite in you. It's easily avoidable, and resetting combos defeat the purpose of this mechanics.
I don't like infinite combos because, even tho it shows that a player is skilled at the game, if they are hard to get out of them, they are not fun.

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>MVCI has a good fighting system
No it wasn't

Why has this become the established narrative did any of you fuckers actually play the game? The majority of assists were removed from the game, the 3v3 mechanic removed entirely in favour of this shitty tag in mechanic for which they added a fuck ton of recovery to everything because they wanted you to contstantly tag in and out, but it meant that the game was sluggish as hell and when the game got to 1v1 it was the slowest, saddest excuse for a marvel game I've ever seen with the game blatantly not designed to function in that form.

MvCI was not some tragic game where it was actually amazing if not for some great injustice that fell on it due to people caring about bad graphics or other irrelevant bullshit. People said the same about KoF13 and SFxT and those games actually died for the same reasons, they took a good formula and fucked it up so all the core fans left because the game was poorly thought out and not fun to play.

>Why has this become the established narrative
Because maxmilliandood pushes it real fucking hard.

Mistake: I mean KoF14 here. 13 had no such problems because it wasn't trying to appeal to retards and knew what it wanted to be.

I just noticed that I didn't exactly make my point. My point is, adding advanced techniques to make a "fair" battle doesn't necessarily ameliorate the battle mechanics. And having a reliable universal way to get out of trouble can be nice.

Fighting games are just riding out their relevance from the good old days. People don't play them at home or in the arcades like they used to, and that's what kept the top of their competitive scenes alive. I'd bet smash is pretty much the only game left that regular groups of friends go out of their way to congregate and play, online laddering is a pale imitation. You're also up against a decades long meta at this point, and you don't even get the cool part of establishing it like what slowly happened in the 90's/early 2000's, nor see the times when doing well was a hell of a lot easier. If anyone actually wants to win in your friend group looking it up online is always the surest way of doing it, which starts the standardized arms race if anyone cares to keep up with it. It's not surprising to see obsessives gravitate towards other types of games where the correct way of playing is far less established. Fighting games had a great run but most of what's great about them has been squeezed out now that we're on SF5, SC6, T7, MK11, and KoF 14.

>Mistake: I mean KoF14 here. 13 had no such problems
But 14 is generally liked by KoF players, it actually appealed to the core audience. While a lot of people actually dislike 13 for being different. A lot treat it with disdain cause it brought in a crowd who think that is KoF and wont shut up about sprites.

KoFXIV is great.

Whats wrong with fighting games staying a niche genre? If it gets enough attention to survive and the fans of the games still enjoy em, I don't really see a problem.

>Yeah, of course, but adding mechanics willy nilly to cover "flaws" or to cover "you will be able to escape this infinite combo if you do this" moments doesn't necessarily ameriolate the combat.
Which mechanics are we talking about here?
>The best thing is to keep it simple, easy to play, hard to master. Look at Smash Brothers. The only real difficulty in Smash is knowing when to dodge and when to use X move. Dodging and performing attacks is not hard. And it's not that difficult to learn all the moves of your character and get used to ledge grab, gravity, etc.
Smash has a lot of overlapping inputs that can make it very hard to do specifically what you want. It's metagame is also "happy little accident" and demands a lot of knowledge about exploits if you wanna stand a chance at it. Other than that Smash is silly fun but doesn't have balance and to actually make it click as a fighting system you also need to learn a lot of very specific mechanics and exploits.
>Skullgirls comes to mind too. It has 6 buttons, and can be pretty tricky at the beginning. But once you get used to comboing your punches and kicks, you'll notice that you have a lot of techniques at your disposal with just 2 directional commands and a button (no need for strange combinations of directional presses to perform attacks).
Skullgirls is a team fighting game, it lacks a lot of subsystems since in these games you gotta learn how to play multiple characters, how they benefit the other and what to do once they can rely on it's help.
>I don't like infinite combos because, even tho it shows that a player is skilled at the game, if they are hard to get out of them, they are not fun.
Most people don't like them but in most current games they're either super specific or and hard to do so it's not a huge issue for most titles in the genre.

No crossplay and bad netplay will forever cockblock fighting games and it sucks. Make one wrong choice on your purchase and you're trapped both by your console and your region
Treasure having a local scene, Yea Forums

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They could do with being a bit bigger just so most have a good player base. It'd be nice to live in a world where few fighters need a discord. That only takes 1K players each so it is doable. But mostly it seems to be a reflex action for people to justify why they aren't good at fighters. No other genre exposes you so hard, which is proved by how little we all understand them. You just have to look at the suggestions people make to see how they know nothing.

KOF 13 had it's own bag of issues like gutted move sets and characters not having decent jabs which made aggressive hopping way too strong and dominant. 14 has it's issues too (max mode can be used to often and makes other 1stock options sometimes redundant) but at it's core the kof formula is still strong and quite enjoyable, maybe it's not at it's best but it's not a total trainwreck that never clicks, same with MVCI which is not as good as UMVC but still not ruining it's combat system, specially with how flawed the early VS titles were.

>You need a large pool of players that are not pussies, that don't stop playing because they get stomped
user, it isnt about being a pussy, it is about how the AI can never prepare you for fighting against a real player, how skills from one game transfer to the next and the 30-40 hours of being raped in MP it takes for a genre noob to even think about fighting back, fuck it might take a genre noob that many hours just to learn to block strings that dont even have mixups in them.
The RTS genre multiplayer scene suffers from similar problems, however at least for RTS games the new player gets to feel like he is doing something for 10 minutes before being steamrolled by an unstoppable ball of death.

Most players only do what works against the ai but don't know why it works. A lot of players take to long to figure out that fighting games are all about knowing where your opponent hitboxes are going to be at what point and not allowing your opponent to do the same to you.

> If anyone actually wants to win in your friend group looking it up online is always the surest way of doing it, which starts the standardized arms race if anyone cares to keep up with it.

I hate this, i remember the golden age of arcades in my childhood, where my friend and i would tour different arcades and go against other group of kids who had different play styles, rosters and sometimes they would rock our world with some new tech. It was like like the wild west or the cliche dojo hunting you see in mangas.
Now you just open youtube learn your bread&butter, strings, matchups and you hop online.

This game is gonna flop.
>anime fighting game
>ps4 only
>panders to scrubs
The devs must want to make sure the game sells as little as possible.

Is there any game where the AI can prepare you for fighting against a real player? They usually go from too easy to input reading 80% of the time. Mobas are the same but people still love them and everyone calls it a casual genre, but they also have a steep learning curve, you will always be shit if you never learn the basics, there's a shit ton of mechanics you learn, you'll get stomped if you play against veterans, etc. the only difference is that it's a team based genre so they have an excuse, in fighting games it's your fault and people just can't accept that. 1v1 fighting games will always be niche because people just can't accept they are bad and don't want or can't spend time to learn the game.

FPS are the closest things, but it's basically impossible for AI to prepare you for pvp because pvp largely depends on meta knowledge and shit AI can't imitate like baiting, conditioning, etc.

>Is there any game where the AI can prepare you for fighting against a real player?
In most if the AI is decent enough but at the end of the day most competitive games are about understanding how the opponent thinks and that's where AI's usually end up fucking up.

>1v1 fighting games will always be niche because people just can't accept they are bad and don't want or can't spend time to learn the game.
I think that could be helped by showing players more in detail what neutral is all about and showing examples to different situations like in GG XRD's tutorials.

Why do 3d fighting games sucks? I'm talking games like naruto
there's a lot of potential to them if they're well designed.

It's a mobilegame tie in who cares nerd

They're based on existing properties so deadlines usually force the developers to rush the gameplay system instead of polishing it and spend most of the resources in putting all the fanfavorite characters, scenes and paying for their VAs instead. Also mini games and cool looking stuff with not a lot of depth that will keep the young fans entertained.

>Wanting Laggy-ass console shitters that use wifi.
MFW is your image.

Arena brawler games like that aren't made to be competitive. They're made so kids can buy them and play as their favorite characters and just mash.

They don't do shit. People won't do tutorials unless they're forced to

It'd honestly be nice if Arena Fighters were made to be decent games with some competitive worth, instead of them being the huge fan wank button mashers they end up being

>Is there any game where the AI can prepare you for fighting against a real player?
Chess? Joking aside as someone who does enjoy a multitude of MP genres, although the ai doesnt actually prepare you for actual players in any game it gets you far enough along that you can feel like you are competing in most fps. Fighting and RTS though? You are not even playing the same game anymore.

>but they also have a steep learning curve, you will always be shit if you never learn the basics, there's a shit ton of mechanics you learn, you'll get stomped if you play against veterans
I think a big part of that is in fighters it seems more esoteric. Understanding the complexities is really looking into how the game even works. That factors in to getting good at any game, but getting good at a moba is generally working inside the confines on what everything does at face value. Getting good is a lot about good builds, team composition and stuff. A lot of the complexity comes from the working together aspect, you could get good at them without really knowing what is going on under the hood. While a fighter to understand the basics of most stuff you need to start breaking down what hitboxes or frame data. You can't really understand how to pressure without knowing what being plus or minus means.

At least they know their audience

>Click thread
>Expect comfy GBF waifu posting
>It's an autistic FGC tourneyfags episode

>there's a lot of potential to them if they're well designed.
Because making one well designed basically requires making it another genre, like Gundam Versus. Like think about poking in SF vs Naruto Ulimate Boogie in the Night. In SF you are looking to control a space, your stage is pretty small so there is only so much room to get away from that. You can also give up this space or press to cover more of it. In a Naruto style 3D game a poke like Ryu's cr.nk wouldn't mean anything, it doesn't really control any type of significant space or stop the opponent doing anything. Thus everything needs to be designed differently. Stuff needs to be quicker, bigger, tracking yet still balance with a sensible risk vs reward. All of it being designed to deal with a different type of movement and space.

Can it be done? Sure, good attempts have been made. But it is a different type of beast being made even if in principle simple ideas exist.

Back to your general

I'm glad they are casualizing them. They are way more fun that way.

>Companies trying to dumb down their games for sales
>How many other failed attempts does it have to take for companies to realize that casuals don't like being patronised either?
How many as it takes to sell a shit product without normies realizing its shit and vets just outright wanting to forget the game even existed in the first place.
Mediocrity sells, senpai. Quality is too expensive and only a few can fully enjoy and understand it.

I don't think that's true. If the tutorial is not ultra retarded shit like press left to move left I can see people wanting to see how the mechanics work at further detail.

Fuck off back to the nearest XB2 thread.

piss off console shitters.
the last thing i need is 3rd world console shitter deluding my online experience with their 2-3 bars laws and akumas.

Just give a good tutorial and good single player content.

Also, remove Z as notation for DPs. It's way easier to understand as down forward diagonal.

I'll wait for the game and see how it plays

>While a fighter to understand the basics of most stuff you need to start breaking down what hitboxes or frame data. You can't really understand how to pressure without knowing what being plus or minus means.
Back in the day a lot of players would get good at this when there was no information about frame data or hitbox specifics. Most fighting games have hitboxes that give you at the very least a decent idea about where your hit is going to have its hitboxes, same with frame data you get a decent idea just by looking at the animations. The more you play the game the more you understand this properties since they're all about getting the feel of the game instead of knowing the explicit numbers.

Yeah, 2d games tend to be about controlling space like with your example of how Ryu's MK just stop meaning anything in 3d. If we go by the idea that even Tekken isn't full 3d then In 3d action games you usually juggle properties like stamina gauges to make the movement more controlled like with EVS and how you can overheat if you just use your mobility options all day.

It probably won't considering that the people ArcSys has licensed the game to are going to start buying out pros.

High damage combos for low effort seems to be what they tend to go for with casualization
also comeback mechanics but let's skip that for know

SFV has 3 frame links which makes longer and more high damage combos easier
DBFZ has autocombos that can be stretched larger than that dudes anus thanks to assists and jump cancelling (which isn't as deep as it might sound)
Dead or Alive 6 lets you get 2 entire full combos off thanks to Break Blow resets
SoulCalibur 6 isn't very combo-based but has Soul Charge and Critical Edge and Lethal Hits
Mortal Kombat 11 looks like they just outright increased the damage every attack does compared to X (Though I admit, I have not played 11 yet)
MK11 has way more problems than just that though

What I think is that they DO get the casual audience they're looking for but, in the process, also alienate their veteran players so the population evens out to what it was before with little to no significant growth

>Back in the day a lot of players would get good at this when there was no information about frame data or hitbox specifics
The level of play was also a lot lower though. Those games would have been broken open 10x as fast they had access to that stuff. Instead it took pure dedicated autism.

There was also less emphasis on a casual player to get good. In a way fighters being more open has made casuals more scared of the genre. If you just button mashed at your friends house you probably thought that is all there was to the game, so you live in that sheltered world of what seems possible on the base level. While the higher level players may figure out a concept like this move can hit here even though that is not touching anything, that whole concept would never be near a casual player. Now they live in a world where they know there is more but it seems inaccessible. Or rather it is a lot of effort to access and understand it.

>going to start buying out pros
They have been sponsoring Daigo for like 2 years now

Arena fighters have too much imprecision inherent to their systems. The third dimension and different camera angles makes depth perception important, which is never going to work very well on a flat display, so ranges are hard to judge and to counteract that you either get huge ridiculous hitboxes or massive tracking/movement assist on attacks. There's also control issues, the game is never going to interpret you wrong in a 2d fighter because up on the controller is always going to mean up in the game, but when the camera angle is moving around, you character isn't always facing in the same direction, momentum from movement/attacks is coming into play etc it's a lot harder to get nailed down in the way it has to be for a competitive game. So basically making them balanced and even just not-broken enough to be playable on a serious level takes a fuck ton of work.

I'd still like to see more real fighting game inspiration in 3d action based games though. Games like For Honor and Absolver were neat ideas that really, really suffered from the devs not having experience designing characters and systems around skilled human reaction times. Even action MMOs like Dragon Nest have some cool ideas and features that, with some work, would make a really cool basis for an arena fighter. There's definitely a lot more potential for moveset designs and cool gimmicks with the third dimension to play with.

But 2/3 of those apply to DBFZ, and there is no doubt that console where it sold best so that is 2.5/3 at worst.

I don't think they'll buy up more than the 4 or so they have right now. I'd have thought they want to snag Tokido but they didn't went he was a free agent. What i want to know is how much they will pump into tournaments. I could see them outright buying some events, at least in japan.

>people who don't play fighting games talking about fighting games
always one of the cringiest things

>What i want to know is how much they will pump into tournaments.
Shadowverse got a one million dollar prize pool.

>>Mortal Kombat 11 looks like they just outright increased the damage every attack does compared to X (Though I admit, I have not played 11 yet)
>>MK11 has way more problems than just that though
>dur me no play but it has deez problems xd
if you haven't played it then why the fuck do you think your opinion is valid? this is why everyone makes fun of you all the time. how would you know it has "more problems than that" if you just admitted you've never even played it and don't even know what the fuck they've changed? because you watched your favorite YouTuber? kill yourself dipshit

>High damage combos for low effort seems to be what they tend to go for with casualization
This isn't actually that bad of a thing, a lot of older fighting games were a couple of normals into a special. Those games wouldn't be better if they just had harder execution.

>The level of play was also a lot lower though.
Not really, Daigo, John Choi, Alex Valle and a lot of other top players were already being absolute monsters at those games even when frame data wasn't part of the discussion.
> Instead it took pure dedicated autism.
Don't confuse effort for autism, it makes you sound dumb.
>There was also less emphasis on a casual player to get good.
If you don't get good you lose your coins, of course there was.
>While the higher level players may figure out a concept like this move can hit here even though that is not touching anything, that whole concept would never be near a casual player.
Not really, a lot of my friends who use to play Tekken already did shit like exploiting how nonsensical Bryan's orbital heel's hitbox was and they're not even great players. You will always have awful players who won't figure anything out but back in the arcades it was pretty social and a lot of people would share different strategies or why they think a move works when it does. Casuals don't play fighters anymore because back then these were some of the few competitive titles, now you have so many more genres that are designed to let everyone win with high teams, press f to kill powers and the like.

That's honestly what fighting games were primarily about initially. Online fails in most traditional fighting games by emulating tournament mentality instead of the fun of playing with people on your couch or at an arcade, the former was never what people were really after in most cases. The depth was there for the people that wanted it but even learning the game as it's thought of now wasn't really a relevant part of it for most people. That was helped a lot by it being a lot easier to think of yourself as good at the game though, you take a different look at all of it when you're comparing yourself to your buddy button mashing as Eddy and the cousins of people you ran into. Now that it's far easier to see the apex level it's hard to not think yourself a loathsome scrub even after 2000 hours. You see this in RTS too, as both the casuals and git gud types have near totally stepped away from "I just want to build a cool town" type notions. Fun isn't really a part of the equation anywhere, and there's now more specialized options available for whatever you like about a given thing. Now there's a much finer split between casuals and tryhards, and they don't usually play the same things anymore, the focus on worldwide competition has likely shattered it forever.

>being THIS assblasted
I haven't played it, yes, but I know what they changed
>2 separate meters
This is bad because it removes a degree of risk/investment that came with having 1 meter with 3 bars in previous entries
>if I combo break now I'll only have 1 EX instead of 2 or even 3 for my next combo or I won't be able to combo into my X-ray
>if I spend 2 meter now on this combo I won't be able to combo break if he catches me in one
etc.
Now even if you do, you still have 2 offensive meter at your disposal meaning overall you just have more resources
>the customization system and monetization scheme
this should be self explanatory
>Fatal Blow
just another last ditch effort comeback mechanic that has no place being in a fighting game that want's to be taken seriously
>it recovers even if you whiff it
jesus christ

Story mode that interesting. BB was pretty good in that regard. Many casuals (read: waifufags) love BB because of the story despite not being very good st playing the actual game. If you can make them care about the characters, they'll care about playing the game. Difficulty of the game is largely irrelevant unless it has preztels and star motions everywhere.

They should bring back chat in online play.
You'll have people who will just insult you but I would imagine that they'll be a handful that will give advice like in the arcade era.

play fantasy strike

>Not really,
It was as a lot of very strong stuff we know about today was even on the table then. Stuff like Ryu's random unblockable were a modern discovery. And players like Daigo and Valle have only got better with time. The standard of play in general has increased a huge amount.

>Don't confuse effort for autism, it makes you sound dumb.
Don't get all autistic over nothing

>If you don't get good you lose your coins, of course there was.
You missed the point, especially cause you only focused on the arcade. But not every arcade was a huge bustling thing either, most were small scale where it would be the few local kids playing. And this is even more true for the people who just played at home. You were much more isolated, there wasn't an established meta all over. So casual players weren't pushed to get to that super high level, at most you'd copy what the couple other kids around you did.

>You will always have awful players who won't figure anything out but back in the arcades it was pretty social and a lot of people would share different strategies or why they think a move works when it does.
See if you didn't get all upset over me saying autism you'd realise that was the same point i made earlier.

>Casuals don't play fighters anymore because back then these were some of the few competitive titles
That is 100% pure bullshit, arcades were full of 2 player and vs games. Many predating the wave of fighters

>but I would imagine that they'll be a handful that will give advice like in the arcade era
lmao, play any MK game online. They have chat and it is just people screaming insults.

Games were also much faster so frame data wasn't as important. None of this medium medium nonsense.

Fighting newfag here, why do people say Smash isn't a fighting game?

Is there something fundamentally different about its mechanics?

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Fatal Blow has bigger problems than just being a comeback mechanic in addition to the recovery. There's nothing wrong with comeback mechanics.

It's too popular

Casuals always going hate fighting games because isn't something that you can pick for 5 minutes and get half decent like platforms or racing games for example.

To do well on a fighting game you must constantly learn something and read your opponent, and the learning curve is akin to learn a skill like playing guitar or drawing.

No matter how casual the games can get, this will be always a issue. And making games easier favor players that already know the genre well.

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Even though smash shares similar concepts like spacing, zoning, blocking, neutral, and rush down, it still has other unique things like the movement, blast zones, and stage interactions like platforms and ledge grabbing. It's pretty much a fighting game, but the fgc has a hard time accepting different games.

>There's nothing wrong with comeback mechanics.
actually wrong

>Is there something fundamentally different about its mechanics?
I mean, yes, but I don't think anyone REALLY cares other than shitposters online. A lot of local scenes and tournaments for fighting games also have Smash there.

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Reminder that building meter out of getting hit is a comeback mechanic.

Because it annoys them

But also because while similar ideas and actions are in play it all goes pretty differently. You'll see smash fans bring up stuff like it has combos though. Which ignoring that so does any action game, how a combo works in smash is completely different to any fighter. It it teetering on the edge of not being a fighter.

different communities and terms

>Cygames
If anything, this game will get shoved into every FGC major moving forward

because it's not a sf2 or vf clone. The fgc would bitch about shit like powerstone and the naruto games if they got too popular. You can argue about whether or not it's a good fighting game, but it's still a fighting game.

It'll be popular on Japan, and only commited weebs will play on west, but that's it

based video
youtube.com/watch?v=_R0hbe8HZj0

>tease Ladiva
>but there's nothing to pull from it, they're even hiding her cooldown markers and HUD again
I guess there really isn't anything to do but wait for the beta to get info

>The fgc would bitch about shit like powerstone and the naruto games if they got too popular.
The FGC has pushed games like puyo puyo and Catherine. Smashfags are just annoying, you throw crabs at each other.

>Core-A is still alive

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We can make some guesses from it.

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its funny because Spooky caught on to what Cygames is pulling. You could see him shilling GBV in his channel lately. Literally since his videos are sponsored by Cygames

>when you realize Melee is a better fighting game than anything that came out in the last 10 years

Prove me wrong.
At least the combos in Melee are legit. If you make a combo in Melee it's because your timing, oponent prediction and input precision were spot on. In modern fighting games pretty much all combos are artificial and automatic.

I downloaded DBFZ yesterday. You can literally press L-attack constantly and your character will make an ultra flashy combo with 5 different attacks chained together without needing to press any direction on the stick.

The problem with Melee it's that Fox is OP and most of the stages are shit though. Other than that it's a fine fighting game.

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i'm too broken brained to go into multiplayer without feeling like I have some idea what i'm doing but I can't learn how to play without playing multiplayer

>combos in Melee
those aren't even fighting game "combos" you're using using the same word for an entirely different thing

>a sidestep that may or may not be on a cooldown
Pretty sexy

I just hate Fighting games in general. They always seem like a waste of time unless you devote millions of hours into it and even then it feels like you want to kill yourself being bodied over and over despite training and learning from the professionals, buying over $6000 worth of a Arcade stick that *SUPPOSEDLY* what Esports players use and even dedicate playing all of the characters in each fighting game in the genre.

I just can't deal with it man. I can't see Fighting games being my *joy* or *career* of playing. I find it more happening if I play a racing game in a tournament or something.

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The wheel kick might be a normal as well

If you have literally not a single idea what you're talking about then why are you here?

just watched that a while ago
good video, but unfortunately its not going to reach the audience it is intended for.
fighting games are something learned over years. button mashers are going to stay button mashers unless they gain that actual desire to learn and improve.

this is a pipe dream i've always wanted, a beat em up game with several characters each with a unique full fighting game moveset ,same manual imput controls & depth of a fighting game - yet is a single player beat em up

People pride themselves on being good at games, yet can't deal with a game or genre they find impenetrable.

Just to say that Fighting games are not for casual players and are for those dedicated to it and even then they will always have people disinterested in the genre if they encounter too many loses and can't improve despite putting the effort in. People can't literally beat gods that mastered the game. So why bother.

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if youre training and not improving, youre probably training the wrong thing.
this is where having someone coaching or back seat viewing you to give pointers is helpful.
arcade sticks are like $80 now for a decent starter, stop exaggerating.

Yes, they are the same. Just because you don't have an on-screen message to make you feel good doesn't mean they are not combos.

In order to make a combo in Melee you have to consider the stun time of you oponent and time your attacks right. If done correctly, your oponent will not be able to counter the chain of attacks until he recovers from the stun. This happens when the percentage is high enough that he is sent far back and it gives him the opportunity to escape.

You don't really need a arcade stick to play fighting games. I know people that play with a fucking keyboard without any issues.

or just a basic controller is fine too.
i play SF and anime on stick, MK and SC6 on pad. certain things work better than others for certain people, but people always seem to think it's the equipment or something than just player skill

You need to change a shitload of rules and turn off half the game to make it somewhat competitive
>Is there something fundamentally different about its mechanics?
In Smash you knock your opponents off the screen to get a KO, in fighting games you deplete their HP bar. Attacking in a fighting game makes you closer to victory, attacking in smash makes the enemy fly further.

>new players can't beat people with decades of experience
wow it's almost like that applies to every multiplayer genre in existence

I am glad Caleb got banned from Twitch. Fuck that racist.

Yes user. You can't beat the flaming fag that is SonicFox How does it feel having a gay champion?

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>cygame shills are this delusional
The game's gonna flop.

Fighting games do not need to dumb down the gameplay or make ultra dumb super comeback mechanics
Casuals are okay with just mashing.
Casuals want fancy story modes, unlocking stuff, customization. Basically fluff.

Even the easiest modt casualised fighter ever won't change the fact that the tourneyfag will absolutely demolish nkrmal players.

There simply need to be *tiers* where it regulates the professionals from the casuals and allow tournaments to have *Underdog Tournaments* Where Casuals that fight other casuals gets a chance to fight a higher Tier Champion of their bracket. So say a Bronze 1 faces a Silver 1. If the Bronze wins they move up to Silver 50, If not then they stay at Bronze 1 to get another challenging right.

How about Monetizing fighting games where instead of you inserting quarters to play. The game pays you in quarters depending on how well you do.

That should attract the players to play the shitty genre.

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>original game is a PC/mobile browser game
>fighting game is PS4 only
Do they really expect me to buy a PS4 just to play it? Yikes. I hope they don't give up on the game just because they're retarded and don't want their fanbase to play the game.

>It was as a lot of very strong stuff we know about today was even on the table then. Stuff like Ryu's random unblockable were a modern discovery. And players like Daigo and Valle have only got better with time. The standard of play in general has increased a huge amount.
Yeah but my point isn't that players won't improve with frame data, it is that you can be more than a formidable opponent without it. A lot of novice players think knowing frame data is vital yet most of the time you will have a good idea of how thinks works since the most important part is how thinks work in practice, not theory.
>You missed the point, especially cause you only focused on the arcade. But not every arcade was a huge bustling thing either, most were small scale where it would be the few local kids playing. And this is even more true for the people who just played at home. You were much more isolated, there wasn't an established meta all over. So casual players weren't pushed to get to that super high level, at most you'd copy what the couple other kids around you did.
Most of those players are in the same line as the players who just try the game for a while and then drop it nowadays. Even today you have a lot of people who never delve deeper into the game even if it's easier than ever. Considering how shit console ports were during that time it's also safe to assume that if they were only playing the home ports then they weren't really that much into these games.
>That is 100% pure bullshit, arcades were full of 2 player and vs games. Many predating the wave of fighters
Mention the huge amount of games that had more than a dozen of totally different characters and allowed for versus play prior to SF2.

>SoulCalibur 6 isn't very combo-based but has Soul Charge and Critical Edge and Lethal Hits
Critical Edge I could see but I don't really see how Soul Charge or especially Lethal Hits are casualization. The latter is a great mechanic but casuals don't know how to do any LHs except for the guard break ones.

*More than half a dozen.

good single player content with satisfying neutral and flashy combos.

Licensing, aka DBFZ which sold pretty good

>flashy combos
For every player than enjoys flashy combos there's another one that absolutely loathes them, in my experience.

it's just a matter of which end of the combo you're at

What?

Tekken's also really easy to play just by mashing. 90% of Tekken is just pressing a direction + a button in the neutral.

I like Soul Charge as well but what I meant was that it lets you deal more damage for less effort
I don't know if they patched it or not but 2B's Soul Charge was actually overpowered
Lethal Hits are more for combo opportunities but are different for each character
What is the point of this post? to try and make me mad? It's not working
SonicFox is good but only at easy fighting games.

>You need to change a shitload of rules and turn off half the game
That's not relevant to what genre a game is

>to make it somewhat competitive
Putting aside the controversial issue of how controversial smash actually is, competitiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of genre.

>in fighting games you deplete their HP bar
Except for fighting games with ringouts

Because they're stupid, smash isn't a traditionnal 2D fighter, but it has it's own 3D fighter formula

>That's not relevant to what genre a game is
I punch random civilians to death 1v1 in GTAV, I guess it's a fighting game too

try again

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>the 3v3 mechanic removed entirely in favour of this shitty tag in

lol retard 17er detected

>DURR 3 IS GREATER THAN 2 THEREFORE 3 = MORE DEEP

You gotta just add some FUN side modes to appeal to both casuals and competitive players. Like some knockoff sports mode or an RPG mode or something.

playing with a normal gamepad is very popular as well, and several tournament-winning pros do it.
people say keyboard is better than gamepad for some games like tekken because the directional buttons let you do shit like korean backdash easier

Have you played the game? Letting you tag in tonmake pressure safe is dumb. The stones themselves are busted, with balanced skewed towards Reality Stone. Some used Power for combo opportunities and Space for more lockdown. It was terrible in practice.

>Except for fighting games with ringouts
You can still win in all of those by depleting HP

Some Capcom fighters like ST, DS and SFA were but SNK stuff and 3d stuff wasn't particularly faster.

Do you select a character from a large roster, fight a limited number of opponents on a comparatively small arena, and use a wide variety of attacks and defensive mechanics?

If not, I would say no.

That and the general platformer-like movement are good reasons to put smash-likes in a distinct sub-genre, but not an entirely different super-genre. Especially since there's no existing genre that fits them better.

>I get to draw the line on what constitutes a fighting game using whatever rules I want

Genre is inherently subjective, yes, but the things I mentioned are pretty fucking basic. I'm not making hyper-specific shit up to exclude games I don't like. For example I think arena fighters are also a distinct sub-genre.

Also literally nobody thinks GTA is a fighting game, whereas a massive number of people (including the organizers of most of the biggest fighting game tournaments) think smash is one.

I've never played a fighting game before, if this is my first one, and I put time into it, can I become one of the best/high level players before it dies?

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>You need to change a shitload of rules and turn off half the game to make it somewhat competitive
Every time I hear someone say this it pisses me off. Bans in fighting games are not new. If anything Smash has more variety even with all of its bans because almost every other fighting game only has 1 stage, just with different backgrounds.
Every time someone complains about the Smash fanbase banning stages I can't help but laugh. In Smash bros they actually have good reasons to ban stages like tons of bullshit on screen. Meanwhile other communities are banning stages for the smallest differences like being slightly longer than a normal stage, which is why every other fighting game just sticks to having one universal stage to fight on.

There's a lot of basic stuff you need to catch up on. People who already know shit about fighting games will be way ahead of you.
But, with enough time, practice, and experience, i do think you could get pretty damn good

Sounds somewhat hard to control properly.

A combo can be flashy without being overly long desu

Samurai Shodown is looking excellent so I might pick that up.

>That and the general platformer-like movement are good reasons to put smash-likes in a distinct sub-genre
Pretty much, it's a fucking subgenre, for some reason autists can wrap their head around this.

>I've never played a fighting game before, if this is my first one, and I put time into it, can I become one of the best/high level players before it dies?
absolutely not, unless you're 1 in a million like infiltration who just has a once in a generation talent and can do that

fantasy strike and rising thunder are fun

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Smash not only bans stages but bans items. A lot of smash players are utterly retarded because they even ban stages that don't really change the balance that much and a lot of low tiers actually can benefit from some stages yet they ban stages asap whenever possible. In fighting games it's usually because the stage causes frame drops and it's not even banned, it's just that it's preferred to play on the other stages, Tekken for example has plenty of different stages all the time in tournaments.

I don't mean Tokido/Daigo level, just netplay warrior like a high level discorder or something

Well, before it "dies"? Probably not, even if it's a simplified game there's a lot you have to pick up, but if you keep playing it sure.

>I don't mean Tokido/Daigo level, just netplay warrior like a high level discorder or something
probably if you nolife it

What do you mean? I was planning on playing 5-7 hours a day. Maybe even longer, depends on if people are online to play.

Blazblue was my first fighting game and I figured it out fine. Learn a character and a few combos and go from there. Never use stylish mode.

Smash is a fighting game, but Smash players have been so obnoxious over the years that it's created a lot of stigma

>pick up fantasy strike they said
>it's simple and you will have fun they said

Instead I go down easier than in other games and matches are over in 20 seconds flat. Fuck this shit, I just want to go back to anime fighters and have fun even when my ass is kicked.

Compared to fantasy strike, I think GBFV's way of making the game accessible is way better.

You also have to, you know, learn how to play fighting games in general, then everything about your character and their preferred ranges or buttons to press for pressure or in neutral, how to use their tools to help in certain matchups, etc. And some of that stuff you'll have a hard time learning just by playing online or in training mode.
Like when you say "high level discorder" I imagine people who actually go to locals and do decently well, but if you're willing to just be an online warrior like me, you don't have to do as much work as I just pointed out. Just some of that will get you to netplay monster status. It's not as hard as people make it seem, and I hate labbing, I would much rather just play.

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What are Fantasy Strike's strong points besides "it's easy to play"? Genuinely curious btw.

This but I played different games for different spans of time across last year, the majority of it being spent on BBCF and GGRev2.
Wish I stuck to something but I always got demotivated and quit, at first it was a bad attitude which took me very long to fix and then it was due to a lack of players.
What are my chances?

I havent been following GBFV, what are they doing?

It's essentially just a regular ASW fighter, but less gimmicky, grounded, and motions have been replaced with directional inputs like in smash bros.
They also removed meter, and everything has cooldown times, both special moves and EX moves but the latter being actually substantial while the former is available like right after you use the special

>You only get 4 special moves
>One of them is just an ex version of an existing move
Imagine defending this trash. Retard.

Any decent gameplay footage yet?

Imagine not knowing what they're taking about.

Ougi meter is literally in the game

the meter that's in the game is most likely inspired by the gacha, once it reaches 100% you get to do your super move which might even be an IK (probably not, but it'll be really strong either way)
its called an overdrive in the gacha

It's not a problem

I just said that you retarded esl

>overdrive
*Ougi. Overdrive is only for bosses and it replaces their regular super with a stronger super.

So a much simpler UNIST? I can deal with that, and the cooldowns are probably reflective of the skill cooldowns in the actual game itself i assume. this doesnt seem too horrible, but im hoping they go the stylish vs manual mode, give people an option to do real inputs instead.

Why don't games just have some characters with simple inputs and some with out? Doesn't Falke in SF work like that?

Because a lot of times those characters with easy inputs tend to be more complex in some other way to compensate for the execution (Jack-O in Guilty Gear).

DBFZ is super fun. It is easy to get into, all you have to do in the beginning is literally press one button. but you can take the time to learn the relatively more complex mechanics and it will pay off. I was pleasantly surprised at the learning curve.

First you press one button.
Then you jump cancel in your air combo to get in a few extra hits at the end.
Then you do 2M 5M jump cancel into your air combo before chase
Then you learn to do 2H jump cancel in the air for optimal bnb
Then you get into character specifics

The skill cooldowns will probably be just for looks outside of drlay effects

Gundam Vs is probably as competitive as arena fighters will get. It’s a shame we will never get what’s in the arcades.

no one wants auto combos in fighting games.

So what you're saying is that you don't need any stupid motion inputs to make complex fighting game mechanics. What a surprise.

Are those cooldown abilities a la Rising Thunder?

Moves with complex inputs tend to be pretty strong since you have to spend a fraction of a second performing the motion. A one button shoryuken with invincibility would be pretty cheap if you don't make it weaker in other aspects but doing so will make the move quite different and change the feel of the game.
It's not that one button moves are bad, but replacing moves with motions isn't the solution, you should give easier characters who have weaker specials but they're one button for example.

It's a real shame, that game looked so damn good during it's heyday. I'm not sure if it's still going strong but most westerners already lost hope and interest in playing it properly.

Dungeon fighter online pvp is basically a fighting game
And it has some the biggest tournaments ever.

>>No way to control the way you get hit
They could implement something like DI in smash.

Why is DBZ fighters considered casual? I've never played it.

No, what they're saying is that things can be complex in different ways. Where'd you get your thing from?

I've never gotten into fighting games because like shmups they're focused alot on memorization and concentration.

I honestly have no idea how you could get someone like me to get into it. The last fighting game that I liked was guilty gear xx.

I can teach you, but you'll have to play brian, miguel, kazumi

or geese

Characters can be complex in many different ways. You can have characters with simple game plan but offset by difficult inputs (Kum in GG), or timing (Yukari in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax), characters that have complex gameplay that balance their offensive nature (puppet characters in general), have simple gameplay but strong offensive power balanced by their lack of options (Sin in GG, Mai in BB), simple inputs but have complex gameplay (Jack-O in GG).
Its not casual, but painfully boring, and a letdown to those who've played the VS series due to a lack of playstyle variety and team composition
GGXX is actually one of the more complex older titles.

>memorization
the challenge of fighting games comes from outsmarting an opponent. Identify and exploit their habits, seeing when they change and knowing how to answer, all while trying to cover up your own habits. It's all about adaptability

>The main problem is that 1v1 games require too large of a playerbase to work

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Just picked up the mobile game again, how do I get those stupid raids to drop me weapons instead of garbage

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do your daily Omega raids every day, farm the Xeno showdown right now and get the earth sword and water staff.

It's a platform fighter and not a traditional fighter in the vein of Street Fighter.

Imagine my shock when a fighting game that doesn't heavily rely on inputs for gameplay is doing better than those that do.

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It needs a huge playerbase because fightan isn't something you can get your friends to play easily like ASSFAGGOTS and BR. Casuals want to feel like they belong to something and fit in.

Sunsoft.

>I do not know what I'm talking about
The other ten percent is pretty important. Haven't you ever heard of Korean Backdashing?

Tekken's korean backdashes are probably nightmare inducing for people who think dps are hard to do.

>before it dies
>2 months
>To get good you need to lose 5,000 matches (while trying your best to win).
>Then you have to find high level competition offline
>Simultaneously you have to get good at tournaments by entering many turnaments.

It took Sonicfox 10+ years to be the best, your odds of doing it in 2 months...
It took Tomo 1 year to be top level at Guilty Gear though, so maybe... That's the fastest I've heard of anyone picking up a game and being top level. Don't let me discourage you though, I am just some random fag on Yea Forums

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Just bought unist in prep for the new version or new game.
What am I in for?

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None of you faggots understand shit about fighting games. Literally the most important thing in a fighting game are characters.
If you can make people care about your characters, they are going to buy your game.

That's the biggest problem with games like Guilty Gear or BB. People say it's because they are anime (when aesthetically, Street Fighter has also beem anime forever), but the reality is that characters in these kinds of games are not appealing to casuals.

I garantee you that if ArcSis make an actually good anime of, said, Guilty Gear, a lot of people will get into the game. The anime will make people care about the characters.

That's what fighting game publishers fail to realize. Normies don't really games like Street Fighter, but everybody knows Ryu and Ken and few people would disagree they are universally loved.
For example, in my country very few people played Street Fighter. KOF was the popular one in the arcades. Yet Street Fighter characters were more popular than KOF's.
The reason was because the SF anime aired on television.
When home consoles became more popular everybody wanted to have Street Fighter because of their anime nostalgia.

When companies say things like "we are going to casualize our game", they admit implicitaly the innability of normies to play their game, which is itself bad pr for a game.
Point is, the solution to the fighting game problem is shifting the focus off of the "complexity" of its gameplay, and shifting it towards how cool the characters are.
Fill it with single player modes, cutscenes. Make a fighting game character appear as a guest in some other popular game (like, for example, Noel Vermillion appearing as a guest character in Overwatch) Make lots of (actually good) anime based on these games.

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On anything but the lowest level it requires some really autistic links and motions. Try playing any Mishima for 5 minutes

if you can't even do a simple DP motion id like to see what kind of brain aneurysm you would have doing KBD, electrics, or king chainthrows.

Korean Backdashing is the gatekeeping mechanic of that series, and one of the many reasons why some people cant get into Tekken. While KBD isn't required at mid level, it is absolutely required at higher levels of play. The incentive of properly learning it and applying it is too big

Getting rocked online until you learn.
Just like any other fighter

UNREAL

BLACK

THINGS

>meanwhile DBFZ dropped among players like crazy

So much for your retarded rant

I'm a new player but expect a lot of
>chuuni shit
>gigantic ass normals unless if your name is Akatsuki
>mediocre netcode
>relatively balanced cast

that's a nice brapper
10/10 would die under it

3 moves and an EX only??

I am down. The counter picks are gonna be real!

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Actually, can't you argue that Tekken's growth is directly proportional to people being disappointed with SFV's "casualization" (whether you agree or not) and going to Tekken which has a reputation as "a hard game"?

Pick Wagner, shit on everyone, have hot opinions about the game that make everyone else seethe cause you're "not playing it properly"

Iv always wanted Nintendo to revive this series and go full on fighting game with it.
People fucking love ARMS designs.
If they brought that character designer back and did it for a tried and true fighting game revival it would be pretty cool

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He's not wrong if you were to focus on the initial launch of DBFZ. The fact that the game looked anime-faithful and visually better in comparison to the visual trashfire that was MvCi probably sold the game to a bunch of people. Post-honeymoon, though, is where you'd be correct on the drop in popularity.

Both mika and enkidu exist too

>gigantic ass normals unless if your name is Akatsuki
He doesn't need gigantic ass normals when he has b tatsu.
CHE-CHE-CHE-CHE-CHESTOOOOOO!!

This game was busted as hell. I will hop on fightcade right now and prove it.

Not exactly. Tekken just managed to be one of the longest running fighting game titles that have the same legacy reputation and brand recognition as SF. Tekken 7 actually streamlined a lot of things and added Rage Arts to appeal to abbroader audience. The thing about Tekken is that it barely ever changed throughout the years, so people who play Tekken never left, but refugees from other games came in.

ARMS had a really cozy side tourny at evo.
I look forrward to seeing it again.

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Whoops ment for

Why do you want to become the best/high level player if you never played a fighting game? E-sports/tourney money?

Focus on having fun, then think whether you want to dedicate 8 hours a day to be good at one game that will inevitably die.

Yes and if they release next version it won't make half of the sales of FZ. It was carried by brand but people already hopped to other games

>dead company that was held hostage by konami
good to know we will never see any of that shit then

Just copy smash, 2 input powers must be enough.
And force coop matches so i can carry girls and fuckboys.
Fightans are niche only in PC.

It's ok when Rising Thunder does it.

ARMS was killed by its high price tag.

I completely forgot this ip existed.
Fuck its completely possible for Nintendo to actually revive this.

Why do fighting games always take so long to put you into a match with somebody? That's the thing that I can't stand the most with fighting games.

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Tekken's growth can be attributed to 7 making the game less combo heavy by the removal of bound from previous titles. It was a soft reset of sorts much like what GG Xrd did to AC+R. It grew because it was made accesible, but the depth is still there

>Fightans are niche only in PC.
SF5, T7, MK11 and maybe DBFZ are not dead on PC. You need to join the discord hell of other games where it's the only place to play with other people, even if you're on PS4. Crossplay will at least bring more then enough people so that you don't really need discord.

I've joined 10 fucking discords and I'm already tired of this shit. Make crossplay mandatory you fucks

Arms sold way more than most current fighting games I dont know what you are talking about.
Its online is still eons more active than any anime fighter and street fighter 5.

Yuzuriha fucking you up from full screen. Fucking bitch got me like 20 times in a row. It's easy to beat, but I was new and didn't know how. I am thankful for that lesson.

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Because fighting games are dead after 2 months and you need to join the game's discord to play with other people. This is why a fragmented playerbase is awful, and SFV is the only one alive where you can join anyone whether they're PC or on PS4.

The people code their online with the internet infrastructure of Japan in mind.

I'm not an expert but I would assume it's two fold.
>one, netcode for most FG are mediocre so you only have so many people it can connect you to that will actually be playable
>two, a lot of people go into discords for some fucking reason to get their matches, forgetting that if everyone who was in a discord went into ranked it would stop being a problem

I have a friend who's completely hell-bent on becoming tournament level player.
All he got from this ambition is unhealthy obsession with winning to the point where he gets anxiety attack from loosing, delusions that he will start having fun once he gets on that level and depression that no one will like playing with him cause he's too shit.

Find a friend and play for the fun of it. It's healthier that way.

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>I've never gotten into fighting games because like shmups they're focused alot on memorization and concentration.
They're actually not, well some concentration is needed of course like any game but you don't need extreme amounts of memorization. Fighting games just come down to general play experience and muscle memory for execution.

Tell your friend these things

>you have more to learn from a loss than from winning
>don't ever delude yourself into thinking you're the "master" at a game, there is always room for growth and improvement

>two, a lot of people go into discords for some fucking reason to get their matches, forgetting that if everyone who was in a discord went into ranked it would stop being a problem
You can't just do random search every time and expect to find other people. Plus, people on discord live in different regions/coasts, so you have that problem on trying to find the person with the best/closest connection to you.

For which game?

Tekken 7 is the first fighter I've actually liked and it's because I can press 2-4 buttons and see my character do cool shit.

Sure at a higher level the technical demand is probably much greater, but when I go online I don't get destroyed so badly I can't even move. I can even get some hits in and do 20-60% life bar damage before dying.
In other fighting games it's a complete one sided stomp where I get stuck in a wall while my opponent does a 10 hit combo back to back and can't even move, or btfo by projectile spam and make you want to quit instantly.

If fighting wants to attract more players maybe they do it like Tekken where beginners can actually have fun.
I'm losing just as much, but actually having fun.

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>I have a friend who's completely hell-bent on becoming tournament level player.
What's the reason? Money? He could get a trade and have more money then playing in tournaments. Or if he has a decent personality, go to streaming. If Aris could fucking do it, then anyone can.

do you know how to block?

>I'm losing just as much, but actually having fun.
See certain people say that they love losing in other games they like too, not just Tekken. So it's mostly your problem.

>fox is OP
Not really. The best, sure, but not OP. Even then, he gets comboed hard.

For all these anons who want to get into fighting games or become good, remember this:
Don't obsess over combos, trying to learn some flashy combo for hours is one of the easiest ways not only to waste your time instead of actually getting good but it can make the game feel frustrating. Learn how your character can approach the enemy instead and how to defend against the enemy while you know some basic and not hard to do combos.
A lot of combo videos you see on youtube are mostly about exhibition and aren't always all that strong compared to combos that are nowhere near as hard to perform.

Sounds like me when I started melee.

I thought the pc version of MK11 was a hot mess?

Number One: Speed up the gameplay flow. I don't mean that the fights should be shorter, I'm saying that the dynamics must happen in a fast manner.

Number Two: More variety with the gameplay of each character. Something like what MK did with the different styles for the same character is a good beginning, but not enough.

Number Three: More singleplayer content. People who buy any game expect it to have more than just multiplayer if it isn't something like a MOBA or a multiplayer shooter. Why the fuck did companies ditch story mode for the characters? That was a stupid ass move.

Number Four: It is not about making the games easier, it is about making the dynamics harder. A hint: just making it hard to properly press the right combination of buttons with the right timing to pull a combo isn't entertaining nor takes skill, it is just a mechanical memorization that barely passes as fun when done right. Actually make your gameplay complex instead of just arduous.

Number Five: Stop killing characters from the past in the franchise for no good reason. Singleplayer content and story mode is good, but don't let it get in the way of the fucking gameplay. Story mode should always be secondary to gameplay. Don't remove a character unless he was both unpopular and/or utter shit ruining the game or bringing nothing to the table.

Number Six: No one gives a fuck about your retarded special moves. Put some actual effort into the actual moves of the characters, instead of going with a template of kick+punch+special move.

Number Seven:Multiplayer should always exist just like Singleplayer. This one isn't hard to grasp.

Number Eight: Don't put paywalls behind characters. No, I don't want to press X to purchase Goro. Either raise the price of your game or just try to sell cosmetic, for fuck's sake.

Number Nine: If you're going to have long ass combos in your game, then make such combos actually worth doing and fun to do.

Number Ten: NO POLITICS.

>just making it hard to properly press the right combination of buttons with the right timing to pull a combo isn't entertaining nor takes skill, it is just a mechanical memorization that barely passes as fun when done right. Actually make your gameplay complex instead of just arduous.
You're aware that the harder a combo gets the more damage or reward(meter, corner carry, okizeme) you receive from it? Combos aren't hard because they just want you to spend hours practicing for no good reason, they're hard because going for such combos carries the risk that you might drop them so opting for weaker combos is still an option.

Dude it's been going for years, we tried every trick to make him less obsessed about it.

Multiple games, mainly anime titles

I don't even know anymore, he's completely lost all reason and now it's just mindless attempt to reach it. He got a good job and everything.
And no I don't think anyone would be interested in a streamer like him.

Is he having a midlife crisis?

he's still bad after YEARS?

LOW

He can hold his own even against some decent players but once you get into his head? Over. He'll believe you completely outsmart and outplay him and just stare blank at the screen.

test

kill

back to /afgg/ for you

you forgot your granblue image

>2 months
I meant after like a year. Matchmaking outside of the game seems like a necessity for most fighters after 2 months though so you're right.

Thats a common issue with matchmaking, and lobbies dont fix this because the king of the hill setting. ARMS lobbies must be standard

>mere existence of phantom hits, wobbling, glitches and overall jank (but thats normal for smash)
doesnt help that tournament viability boils down to less than half of the roster

Yeah, and they died therrs a reason why Wakuwaku7, Kaiser Knuckle, Martial Masters, Ninja Masters, Rabbit never got true sequels and even series like World Heroes, Fighter's History and even Power Stone died.

only a few games really led an impact, hell MK in spite of its barebones gameplay and horrible single play experience it got so damn popular.

>phantom hits
i do hate them, but they don't happen very often at all
>wobbling
Ice Climbers still suck
>glitches
not even that many of them, and the only "important" ones are on characters that suck
>half the roster is viable
pretty much the same as any old fighting game. Doesn't make the game worse. just look at MvC2, which is still considered a great game despite horrible balance

>Arena Fighters

NOOOOOO

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Smash - Sells because "look! Snake vs Pikachu!!!!" not because it's casual or some shit
Marvel vs Capcom - sells because "look! X - Men vs the fucking Street Fighters!!!" not because it's causal or some shit

That's what sells games. Characters, not dumbed down mechanics. But these fucks think making their games easier will make them more popular. That has been untrue since fighting games existed. Mortal Kombat sells because of Fatalities. Once that's over casuals leave until the guest DLC is announced. And then after that they leave for good.Developers think that by adding that shit and by dumbing shit down casual players will begin attending tournaments and beating pro players and eventually becoming pros too.

Devs are fucking idiots.

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A year? 5 hours daily? Looking for the best competition you can find?

Yes. You will actually become extremely good. More than just discord good. Actually good.

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see smash

Easiest way to bring casuals into fighting games is through SP content. If they get hooked, they will want to improve and play MP

Casuals only play multiplayer.

Nonsense. There's nothing casuals love more than storymode

Nobody wants to dive into a niche genre where 90% of the population grew up in arcades. Being up against 20+ years of experience in a 1v1 format is just not fun.

Fighting games don't have story modes. Just NRS.

DI like in Smash would absolutely not work in any regular fighting game.

>12 characters for 60 dollars and up to 100 dollars for multiple season passes suck dick for such a niche and low content genre

this so much, having only bought the sf4 final version that had all the characters i felt so scammed buying the game full price on release and being cucked from future character.

Also a big thing about fighting games is that ping is extremely important, and playing in europe that has the smallest playerbase in fighting games is god awful,sf5 had 5 minute matchmaking to give me a 4 star connection with someone from NA...

>GG
>Unist
>Jive
all have story modes

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Blazblue has KH tier story mode

Why are you complaining weeb. Visual Novels are 60 bucks for text and images. And DLC puts them over 100 dollars.

Visual novels are also way longer than every single fighting game story mode.

>something is expensive so its okay if other things are expensive

To be honest UNIST story is trash, and Chaos's perspective was the only interesting part of it. Gordeau's whole grudge against Wagner makes no sense either. It also reminds me of bleach.

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Casuals play what their favorite streamer plays, that is multiplayer games.

And casuals are more sociable than you spergs

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I liked Mika's little misadventure. The crayon scribbles sold it for me.

it's ok because you weebs buy it at 60 and I guarantee you a fighting game has far more replay value than a fucking VN game. You have no argument. This case is OVER! You weebs buy VNs but complain about a fighting game costing 60? Fuck outta here.

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Hardly anyone saw the Street Fighter anime back in the day, or anything related to it except for the Van Damme movie. People liked the characters because they hit the right balance. Anime only has a certain level of appeal, it enchants certain autistic noodles but a lot of people don't care for it or want to listen to it in their houses. As unrealistic as SF is the core cast still look like they would fit in the old action and martial arts movies, which resonated with people a lot more than obnoxious weebery. The Bruce Lee character for example usually looks a lot more in place in older games than they would in GG or BB. Exaggerations like fireballs, elastic limbs, and electricity still worked because they were using a similar but different core image, though it has gotten a lot fudgier as the years have dragged on. Still, a huge part of their success was nailing characterization, which Capcom was hands down the best with until the last decade or so.

Casuals will never, ever play one fighting game for several thousand hours, but that's not even important.

Neither should be that expensive.

>online is terrible anywhere in europe
>playing vs cpu's is baby mode, if im gonna play vs cpu's might as well play a good singleplayer game
>your argument is based on that because some weebs buy vn's it makes all the fighting game companies jewish moves reasonable

They do
Jack-O doesn't even have a quarter circle outside of her supers, everything is either direction+Dust or 22 button
Still no one plays her because despite how much they'll whine about it inputs aren't what filter scrubs, that's just the first roadbump they hit so they blame their inability to practice or accept that they need to work to improve on dp inputs are dumb"

go to locals you fat fuck. you don't need online. fat fuck.

Locals aren't everywhere. Some people can't afford the fucking gas to travel an hour and a half and then the entry fee just to play a game.

feels like im talking to a 60iq black person so might as well leave the thread, fighting games have terrible sales for a season thats not only skill celing

They all have story mode

Here's another attempt at complaining about "casualization", while not understanding what makes fighting games competitive or fun. Just because a bunch of games aren't exploding in popularity because of easier inputs, execution, or other shit, doesn't mean they don't attract more players, FGs are getting more popular every year now, and I'm sure making them more easier, of course the genre will not be as popular as BR or Mobas, but as someone who's been on watching and playing them for years, it's nice to see more people playing.
Most of people complaining about casualization don't even play at high-level, or don't even play the games at all, and most of the games still have a high skill ceiling and are still good games, unless SFV.

>Most of people complaining about casualization don't even play at high-level, or don't even play the games at all, and most of the games still have a high skill ceiling and are still good games,

Well said.

>Gordeau's whole grudge against Wagner makes no sense either
Blame them having to justify the events in Arcade mode with Chronicle mode. It's written to try to make sense of a pretty awful Arcade plot.

So I guess all those pro players from USFIV and such who're upset with V's casualization never played at a high level then, huh?

I might start a shitstorm with this but: Smash Bros