Is he right?

Sounds like he knows a hell of a lot more about game design than you if you think Doom would have benefited from rpg mechanics lmao

I've never played a game that had a story which would still be good if it didn't have a game around it.

It depends entirely on the individual game

Story in porn is the only thing that can get me hard now. So I'd say he's wrong

It's like form is a part of storytelling or something

No.

In the genre of game he was making at the time he was totally correct. Especially for the time he was making it. Even now that applies to a game like DOOM 2016. It is not true for RPGs, and considering Carmack was a huge D&D fan I am sure if you asked him if an RPG based on D&D should have a shallow, porn-tier story he would obviously disagree.

I say good gameplay can carry a poor story, but a good story can't carry poor gameplay.

based

a good RPG is carried by its mechanics more than it is the story

FF8

No, he just wanted to get rid of Tom Hall because Tom Hall is a useless pedant with shit ideas. Carmack is a programmer first and foremost and doesn't know shit about game design. Just take one look at what happened to id once they lost all their creative talent. He barely plays games and didn't even play Wolf 3D once until it was literally finished.

The Witcher 3
Metal Gear Solid

Of course, but you need a decent story in an RPG for it to be engaging. It has to be a good game and have a good story, which is what makes it a hard genre to develop and why so many games of it are crap.

Nier

if an RPG has shitty characters, dialogue and story, I won't play it. I wanna defeat some Chad evil forces with decent motivations.

A good story will still be good even if you just read the script.

Completely wrong.

Porn is so much worse without context, so story really helps.

I disagree, nothing can carry mediocre gameplay. Even with great story it's still a mediocre game.

It's subjective. Different people value different things in a personal hierarchy. 'right' is the wrong term to fixate on. All games shouldn't adhere to a single hierarchy of value, nor do they

What about MGS? Shit has fantastic gameplay, while TW3 I have never finished and never will because of its poor gameplay

>story is just plot points rather than it's greatest strength being how it's told

Not gonna lie there are time where the story in porn is actually interesting enough for me stop fapping.

this

Read a book.

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Tom Hall was the brain behind Commander Keen, ID's first success. Plus Tom had a lot of interesting idea for DooM (that ended up being included in RoTT).
But, yeah, Carmack at that time had no interest in anything but programming. Once Romero out, Id turned to shit. Quake was a mess, a brilliant technological demo, but a mess nonetheless. After that everything was trash, except for Quake 2. I have no idea why.
I've finished re-reading Masters of DooM yesterday, it's such a fucking depressing story my god.

no man was ever more right

depends on the genre but for a lot of them (platformers, FPS, flight/racing aims), he's absolutely right

>Metal Gear Solid
exactly, good gameplay carries trash story

You read books for the plot?

yikes, it's getting worse

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What about Arcanum, Vampire the masquerade bloodlines, Planescape torment, the Witcher 1, etc?

Do you think prose is unimportant in books?

Then why is Kojima in everyone heads? Just because muh gameplay? Fuck off

A game is made or dies by its story. Even a game with shit gameplay like NieR Gestalt is a masterpiece if the story is great.

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Of course prose is relevant. Prose is not analogous to gameplay when gameplay is 90% story irrelevant and is just some shit you do to unlock the next reveal.

Haven't played Arcanum but the others are all mediocre at best gamplay wise, and the writing isn't good either, with Planescape being the best of them.

Planescape torment says hi

Tetris

because there's a lot of idiots roaming this world

>Tom Hall was the brain behind Commander Keen
Shigeru Miyamoto was the brain behind Commander Keen. Tom Hall just flavored a game built from Carmack's Mario clone that would have worked no matter what story/setting they stuck to it.
>Plus Tom had a lot of interesting idea for DooM
If Hall got his way with Doom it would have been System Shock. Don't get me wrong, System Shock is a good game, but it sure as shit didn't sell like Doom.

Tetris Effect was one of the best games released last year and I can't even make an "its story amounted to [x]" joke because it didn't have one period.

Obviously, certain types of game don't require a story, but the majority do.

He's wrong about the porn

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99% of time I agree with this. Pathologic is the exception IMO.

Story matters far less than writing

This is the fault of current standards of game design not an inherent problem of the medium. Video game writing is generally trash yes, and just an excuse to add some context to what you're doing and to get to the next segment, but only because the industry is full of hacks/trying to make the most money possible by inherently making bland games that appeal to a mass audience. Thief is an example of a game that interweaves narrative and gameplay successfully.

He's wrong because the importance of story is entirely dependent on the way the game is made.
How good the story is can make or break a game that leans on it, but could be entirely irrelevant for a game of the variety he made.

no game requires a story
it's a game
only stories with game elements attached require a story

To be fair all I said was I haven't played a game that does it for me. I didn't place any fault or blame.

Every point and click ever made.

If those are even games.

well yeah, no one calls them books

In hindsight? Yes. If it wasn't for story fags we wouldn't have all these pretentious movie games

People who make statements like this are really short-sighted. There may be games where a story is not necessary like platformers, racing games, arcade shooters, but I think the recent trend of story-driven games proves that there is certainly room for them to exist and be one of the most important parts of the game. Thinking of a game like The Last of Us, which has an engaging story that drives the context behind what you are doing. Who gives a shit about a lumberjack and a teenage lesbian murdering people when there is no context behind it? Without the story, it just becomes another action game. The story is what sets it apart and that's what people remember it for. Metal Gear Solid is another great example of a series that could not exist without it's story. It might be a story that's non-sensical, but without the story, there is no Metal Gear Solid. It would just be another stealth-action game. At the end of the day, even if you don't like stories in games, that is what people remember about the game. All the different characters, plot points, twists, climaxes...that's what people talk about. No one talks about that one level from God of War 2 that they really liked. It's about a boss fight because of the story implications behind it. It's about what happens to the main character. Saying story isn't important is disrespectful to what games have become and it ignores the potential games hold. At the end of the day, it really depends on what kind of game you are making. If you are making an RPG, the story/world-building is the most important part of the game. No one plays RPGs for the gameplay. They want to be enveloped in a world. If you are making a FPS, you can probably put the story on the backburner because gameplay is far more important in that genre. Making a statement like this is stupid and is the reason Carmack hasn't been relevant for over 20 years.

I would say half right. Nowadays, most developers seem to care more about story, graphics, and online compatibility instrad of good, fleshed out gameplay, and so a lot of these games like God of War PS4, Red Dead 2, FF15, and even The Last of Us, have great stories and graphics, but they are so incredibly boring to actually play that they might as well be movies. There needs to be more developers that care about both aspects as opposed to just presentation and story.

He is, but most people, especially with series, are actually addicted to the story bits
>MGS5 is considered shit forthe disappointing story
>FE Fates is considered shit for the story despite the gameplay
>Drakengard has fans all over the place despite gameplay being utter garbo

>Tom Hall
I respect him for Anachronox, sad he never managed to make a sequel

You can count on less than two hands the number of games with genuinely great writing and story good enough to carry an otherwise mediocre game, the fact is even the artsy types in the industry are not particularly talented at writing. There are maybe 3 or 4 truly great writers currently working. Games like walking sims COULD be good if they had ecreptional writing, but not a single one has (yet).

I'd disagree with Carmack on principle but in practice it's held true for most games. A mediocre or bad story will drag a game down hard (Mass Effect 3) but a decent one will help carry it with great presentation (GoW 2018). RPGs rarely have great stories but often have very good writing, which is actually quite different. I don't think I've played many games with a great story so much as great writing in general. It takes a very, very specific type of writer and game to make a genuinely great game story and I don't think we've had enough of them so far in gaming's history to say story is a standout selling point of the medium. I'm sure we'll get there someday and everyone saying games can't be art or games shouldn't focus on story will be looked back as idiots in the same way as people who said photography couldn't be art or have meaning in the mid 1800s, or that film was just a cheap gimmick without possibility to provoke thought in the early 1900s, or even that painting couldn't be meaningful like literature in the 1600s.

Pic related proves he is incorrect. Story trumps gameplay every single time.

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>No one plays RPGs for the gameplay.
I do. Out of all the ones I've played I can't tell you what the story is for any of them.

that's all nice but those stories that excite some dumb people enough to call them GOTY have nothing to do with gameplay
you might as well say that quantum break was god tier game because the companion show WAS KINO (regardless of the truth)

john is 100% correct

For story heavy games the story gets me interested, but the gameplay keeps me invested. Good gameplay carries a game better than a good story. I can keep playing a game with a bad story if it has good gameplay, but a game with shit gameplay and a good story has to be really compelling for me to slog through it

>The story is very important in a porno.

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This. And the reason why is because a game should first and foremost be a game, not a story.
This is what zoomers dont seem to understand, and why the industry isnt thriving like it should.

If the gameplay isnt fun, what is the point? Watch a movie, read a book; there are so many better mediums for storytelling.

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Clearly times change because lots of porn now is all about roleplaying and scripts

>Shigeru Miyamoto was the brain behind Commander Keen. Tom Hall just flavored a game built from Carmack's Mario clone that would have worked no matter what story/setting they stuck to it.
You're not wrong, I still feel that Keen offers a little bit more than just being a Mario clone but It's probably the nostalgia talking more than anything really objective.
>If Hall got his way with Doom it would have been System Shock. Don't get me wrong, System Shock is a good game, but it sure as shit didn't sell like Doom.
You make an excellent point and I have to agree with you.

Sounds like he has really boring taste in porn.

this but there's also a lot of retarded boomers who will argue otherwise
AAA studio starting a modern game project:
SO THE STORY IS ABOUT THIS
ok but what's the gameplay?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? IT'S A GAME, IT MEANS 3RD PERSON ACTION EXPERIENCE STITCHING THE STORYSERVINGS

Not at all, good gameplay defines a game.

And story can be integrated into gameplay, through discovering and exploration of the setting and world.

But trying to make a game stand on story alone doesn't make for a good game, most 'story games' are just shallow flooded with QTEs and really basic gameplay.

Okay everyone shut the fuck up.

In arts are this is no greater or less importance, there's ORDERS of importance.

There are certain things that are important FIRST, but not necessarily more important. And in a game, the gameplay is important FIRST.

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>most 'story games' are just shallow flooded with QTEs and really basic gameplay.
And clearly still just a story made for shoving into a game.

that panel is a work of art

isn't the kid in OPs image the person who googled how to wipe a HDD after he got caught stealing or embezzling or something?