Hey anons, despite all the bullshit choices Epic is making...

I just don't want to deal with anything with Epic because of their horrible bushiness practices but it's hard not to use UE4 since it is so damn user friendly

Unity is very user friendly too. Hell, RoR2 was made in Unity by a bunch of former Yea Forumsirgins who had never done a game in 3D and it sold very well.

idk it's like whenever unity is ever brought up people tell me it's shit and just use UE4.

I see this opinion everywhere.

I'm just saying, if it was good enough for them it's probably good enough for you. What kind of game do you want to make anyway? Shooter, souls like, platformer?

>Epics starts requiring PC licenses of UE4 to release their titles on EGS first

Well one of my dream projects is a sort of a classic battlefront successor

you better be memeing

I suggest trying out Unity then. Look at this sample they've got
youtube.com/watch?v=yDX_NBGJ2xM
You can start learning from it to get some of the old battlefront combat

He's memeing. Getting into the EGS is impossible if you don't have a good game. It's not that they'll force you, it's more likely that they won't let you in

Wow, thanks for the help user, I'll learn what I can from this!

ue4 is a garbage particle tech demo engine with a hard on for architectural visualization
haven't seen a single good game on that engine
comparing it to ue3 you'd think an entirely different company designed the piece of shit that is ue4

But isn't Unity littered with shit shovel ware too?

Post comparisons.

This guy is full of shit, ignore him.

Use Unity.
Have sex.

You got any evidence to back that up?

Attached: 1548297197861.png (610x702, 107K)

Because it's really easy to work with, lot's of people make shitty games with it.

Unity is making a step in the right direction that UE4 doesn't, which is ECS. It's harder to get used to ECS instead of OOP, but certainly worth it.

>Entity–component–system (ECS) is an architectural pattern that is mostly used in game development. ECS follows the composition over inheritance principle that allows greater flexibility in defining entities where every object in a game's scene is an entity (e.g. enemies, bullets, vehicles, etc.). Every entity consists of one or more components which add behavior or functionality. Therefore, the behavior of an entity can be changed at runtime by adding or removing components. This eliminates the ambiguity problems of deep and wide inheritance hierarchies that are difficult to understand, maintain and extend. Common ECS approaches are highly compatible and often combined with data-oriented design techniques.

UE4 doesn't have this? also what is OOP?

Nope, ECS is pretty new. OOP means object oriented programming, it's the traditional way of programming games. ECS gives you much better performance, it's the future. Overwatch uses ECS and even if OW is a shit game the engine, networking and performance of that game are off the charts.

your game is gonna look like some nasty ps4 consoley plastic shiny bloomy shit

How does OW have ECS if it's on the UE4?

I'm going to focus more on gamely than waste time making the graphics look shiny, Dice really bugged the shit out of me with how they just made their game look like plastic.

OW uses an inhouse engine, I don't know where you read that it uses UE4 but it absolutely doesn't.
youtube.com/watch?v=nfxDIkLE3hs
Jeff talks like a fag so you may want to mute it. This is a talk about using ECS in OW
youtube.com/watch?v=W3aieHjyNvw

the shininess is automatic dude. it's how the engine looks

>Overwatch uses ECS
Oh, is that why it's so fucking CPU hungry?

I haven't played the game in a while but I could have sworn seeing the UE4 logo on it

then I will fix the shininess

Also, do I need a recommended PC build for making games?

I'll let John Carmack speak for me. If you don't know who that is, go find out right now
>In the information age, the barriers just aren't there. The barriers are self imposed. If you want to set off and go develop some grand new thing, you don't need millions of dollars of capitalization. You need enough pizza and Diet Coke to stick in your refrigerator, a cheap PC to work on, and the dedication to go through with it. We slept on floors. We waded across rivers.

A faster computer helps but it's not needed.

Oh okay good to know, I was afraid that I didn't have enough but here is my current setup.

Attached: Speccy.png (424x383, 21K)

learn C++ before "learning" an engine
and I mean actually learn it
all of it
everything from lockfree programming to template metaprogramming

no it's not you idiot
most devs are just too stupid to into shaders, graphics programming is beyond most indie devs

you can do any game in any "engine"

The only thing that matters is which will have the features and existing tools to make your life easiest.

That's bullshit. The most successful indie devs are terrible at C++. Unity doesn't even use C++. UE4 uses C++ but it uses so many macros that it's a different language altogether. This is terrible advice that will get OP nowhere.
Also, absolutely no good programmer will tell you that he knows "all of" C++. Try going on /g/ and say you know all of C++ and you'll get laughed out of the board.

pretty much this

>language matters
get out

If a successful indie dev is terrible at C++ they can't code

>Also, absolutely no good programmer will tell you that he knows "all of" C++. Try going on /g/ and say you know all of C++ and you'll get laughed out of the board.
exactly why i told him to learn it
he doesn't know that
learning C++ is the process of enlightenment
it is a journey, not a goal
>but it uses so many macros
well i now know never to touch UE4
macros are disgusting

>it will automatically make itself the default choice for new developers?
Unity already IS the default choice for new developers, weird that other user was saying like it isn't. While I like UE4 more, and it's been growing recently, Unity is still ABSURDLY bigger with indies and hobbyists.

at the end of learning C++ you should realize it's fucking terrible

yea
and that despite being terrible no other language comes close to the power
and that it'll be good when the next standard hits
or maybe the next standard
or maybe the next standard
personally i'm waiting for C++23 and the metaclasses proposal
it's going to destroy the concept of boilerplate

>tfw have a C++ technical test in 3 days for an interview
>barely had any contact with the language
I'm so fucking screwed.

Is that having so many half baked shitty games the reason why it's bigger with indies?

I think he wants to make games, not reach neckbeard nirvana.

don't worry you'll do fine

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It's bigger with indies because:

>C# is absurdly easier to use/learn than C++(even UE4's """""C++"""")
>The vast Asset Store marketplace
>the community that started to grow and grow back when its "competition" was UE3

Bigger community = more resources to learn/find solutions to your problems.

UE4 is not a bad option
Once you become an experienced programming it's best to take the directx pill and make your own engine

I just wanna worry less about C++, besides didn't the older devs go through most of that coding so future kiddos didn't have to?

I rather trust the community than expect help from a corporation

I would eventually like to make my own in house engine some day

See? I look at shit like this and I'm completely and utterly lost. Like fucking hell.

Also, look at this.
It's a TUTORIAL exercise from codingame.

At first I implemented a simple binary search, worked well. But lost points because I didn't use the one from the standard library.
Alright, then I tried to use binary_search.

Then I realized the whole thing about arrays decaying into pointers when used as parameters in functions, so I couldn't call begin(array) and end(array) on it. Then I had to create a vector from that, which is fine.

But when I submitted the answer, it told me that I lost points because it wasn't running fast with a high enough array(1million+). And I think it's because it's taking too long to create that vector.
I've searched for hours and I still have no idea how the fuck I can use the std binary_search with this shit without it taking too much time.

Attached: file.png (1278x597, 103K)

>Then I realized the whole thing about arrays decaying into pointers
And yes, I am THAT fucking new with the language.

>I would eventually like to make my own in house engine some day
Ohboy
Here we go again.

The pointer + 1 should give you the pointer to the next item shouldn't it? Knowing the size you can do the binary search without vector, I think?

What's wrong with that?

I mean that's true bu
Huh.
I couldn't possibly have been this fucking dumb, right?
Let me try it.

>I just wanna worry less about C++, besides didn't the older devs go through most of that coding so future kiddos didn't have to?
no
the current state of engines is a disaster for various reasons and video games programmers are terrible
idTech is probably the singular good engine, I mean fuck idTech 3 made us of SIMD for optimization
most devs still don't understand how to do that
be the future you want to see

>See? I look at shit like this and I'm completely and utterly lost. Like fucking hell.
that's because it qualifies as compiler abuse
it's purposefully confusing
it uses "argument dependent lookup" and "substitution failure is not an error" and friend classes (which are actually metafunctions) to recursively declare new types
it's used to impliment compile time state

Ah no, nevermind.

If I want to use the std::binary_search, I need the 2 iterators for the beginning and end, and how would I get those? If I'm implementing my own binary search, sure, I had already submitted an answer without using a vector.

But if I NEED to use the binary_search, I don't know how to use it without the vector.

Attached: file.png (631x407, 45K)

*metafunctions in this case
friend classes aren't always metafunctions, but when they only exist as a type that wraps a value they are

std::begin(pointer to beginning), std::end(pointer to last element +1)

It was one of the first things I've tried, but doesn't work.

>no matching function for call to ‘begin(int*&)’

Attached: file.png (656x401, 44K)

sorry
you can just use raw pointers as iterators
i almost never use raw pointers anymore so i forgot what the exact semantics are
see pic related for an example using std::copy

Attached: 1555783620379.png (539x140, 5K)

If you have to ask this question you should just give up immediately.

What's wrong with asking that question?

Who gives a shit about the company's practices? If the engine is good, ours good.

It's*

Can I get a quick rundown of Tiananmen Square Massacre?

You will live long enough for Epic to enforce the engine as Epic Store exclusive.

this is the /prog/ thread
the china hate thread is a few pages down

Huh, holy shit user. I've spent hours on this shit. I know that I'm absurdly new with the language, but stuff like this I feel that SHOULDN'T have been this hard to find a solution to. Or maybe I'm that dumb.

Thanks anyway, this shit has been bugging me for quite some time.

Attached: file.png (1091x382, 93K)

nah, your confusion was justified
the border where C meets C++ gets retarded
trust me

>people still use C++
LAMAOS

name a more powerful language
and no, rust is not more powerful
a language where you have to fight your compiler to do the most basic shit is crap

and if it's not native, it straight up doesn't count

New to programming here, what exactly is going on here, and why was he confused?

You wont ever without outside funding. But good luck.

the semantics for using C style arrays with the standard library don't really fit in with the programming style of the standard library

>you still use the most versatile and powerful language that's still reasonably easy to write? LMAO!
you right now

Thanks user, hopefully the test itself wont use shit like this to trip me up.

OP here, I wish you luck user and you will be successful in the future!

Attached: 1527662906822.png (225x274, 74K)

Thanks user.
Late night de/v/ threads really are the best.

Why would people use C style arrays in C++ instead of the std one? Are the performance gains that good?

if this is the first engine you are learning stay. if not, leave.

he was doing a coding challenge thing
I assume it's part of the parameters, dunno how std::array would work with it

metaclasses?

the ability to tell the compiler how to generate code
the paper is fucking amazing

Attached: 1531782687549.png (596x719, 153K)

Reinventing the wheel, feature implementation milestones measured in years, ending up with a product that's vastly outclassed by the most basic of commercial engines.
Sure it may have some merit as a learning experience, but outside of some extremely niche circumstances, you're not going to end up with a practical alternative to any of the existing ready-to-go engines.

If you want to make an engine, forget gamedev, you don't have time for it. If you want to gamedev, forget from-scratch engine development, it's just silly.
This is for 3D though. If you're looking to create your own whiz-bang text parsing engine then you might not be stretching as far.

look at this shit

Attached: 1546881718754.png (897x596, 200K)

Technically UDK is the first engine I bullshitted with, Unity I've spent more time on practicing coding but the tutorials were so out of date I stopped and UE4 I bullshitted making maps

Attached: 2017-11-29 16_27_18-ElementalDemo - Unreal Editor.png (847x479, 827K)

how could you use this in general? in gamedev?
to make more efficient, specialized code?

no, it's for extremely trivial (and more importantly testable) code generation
basically boilerplate is gone forever
traditionally horrible tasks like serialization that normally require language extensions or significant amounts of code can be done with a few lines

Oh so a new engine is for a different sect of programmers?

There are two reasons to make an engine. You want to work developing engines (not games) and you make your own. The other is when you need a feature that no engine already has and you have no choice. Well that, and when you don’t want to pay another company tons of royalties. If you’re an indie that’s fine but when the money you’re paying the company is more than the money it would cost to make your in-house engine things change

So at some point whenever those things ever accrue I go hire my own engine devs?

I think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself but yeah. I wonder though because I think making a new engine is something a fuckton of good programmers want to work on but never get the chance. I think it’s a way to get real talent into your company

I know I shouldn't but I have a bad habit thinking way too ahead on a future before I have even started anything

>I wonder though because I think making a new engine is something a fuckton of good programmers want to work on but never get the chance
plenty get the chance, they just realize that it's a lot harder than they thought
because the hardest part about enginedev isn't making the engine, it's making the tooling
there's hundreds of tutorials on all of the enginework stuff
writing a renderer, setting up openal, integrating physics, embedding lua, all of this stuff isn't actually that hard (relatively) and is pretty well documented

but the asset handling stuff
oh god
fuck that
asset processing deals with C++'s greatest weakness
(de)serialization
you basically have to write a compiler if you want to make it easy on yourself

>asset processing deals with C++'s greatest weakness
>(de)serialization
>you basically have to write a compiler if you want to make it easy on yourself

Yikes

Yikes indeed.
Almost every single native application that handles complex data needs some sort of interface description language compiler.
And for the most part they're all application specific.
There's some generic ones, facebook's got a variant on apache's thrift, microsoft's made one called bond, google's created 2, protocol buffers, and flatbuffers.
None of them are designed for games, they're all designed for networked stuff so there's a lot of bloat.

Metaclasses , , would solve this by allowing you to include your binary interface as part of your API, but they don't come until 2023 at minimum, because the committee is slow as hell.

what

so all those applications are all bloatware?

They're not bloatware.
They're just not meant for games.
The code they produce is designed mainly for web servers.

So what should I work on first, animation, models, maps?

first you write the lexer, the parser, and the compiler for your interface description language's base data types which usually include your standard base types + vectors, quaternions, and other low level game specific datatypes,
the compiler should output serialization routines in the source code of various languages
then you define the structure of assets such as animations, models, and maps, as files written in your interface description language
then you write tools

at some point you plug these into the engine you have already written

Seems difficult to make lexer parser and compiler types + vectors, quaternions

UE4 is generic and overrated. Source Engine is way more fun and better.

Source is just too old, and the modern games running on it aren't really "running on it," they're running on specialized builds that are so painstakingly different from the Source we know that you couldn't recognize them if it weren't for the fact that they said that they're on source.

UE4 is so generic, it makes such boring games.

Blame that on the devs who make boring ass games then not the engine itself

yeah do you think this OP is about to write fucking custom shaders?

why do you think so few people successfully write their own engines
preshing.com/20171218/how-to-write-your-own-cpp-game-engine/
I disagree with this guy on a few points, but this is a pretty good overview.
Serialization is a big subject is what I'm going on about, he talks about how blender does it, which is pretty masochistic.
As I understand it instead of just writing an IDL compiler they wrote a C compiler that creates IDL compilers

Oh you meant for creating engines? I was talking about what to start learning on one of the current engines

This. I love the "clean" look of Source so much. It is old and sometimes the performance is strange, and the cube-map can be weird, but the static, baked lighting and the water stuff is still nice. The faceposer animation is still unmatched.
Last game I played with Source, was INFRA, and that was a very cool and unique game.

I want Source 2 pls.k.thx.

oh for fuck's sake
nigga read the reply chain
an already made engine should handle all the shit for you

as for learning them, personally i'd learn to program first, microsoft has some very good tutorials for C# if you're learning unity, but if you want to dive right in and learn the engine itself, I've heard youtube tutorials are pretty good, but I don't know which
as for learning C++ for unreal, that is another story, there's no easy way to do it, and there's plenty of wrong ways to do it (which is probably why unity is more popular)

you think writing a renderer is easy and you're complaining about serialization? what? it's just fucking boilerplate code

You can get that clean look on anything if you set it up properly, the Source engine itself is a piece of shit not fit for general purpose game development

if you're not a hardcore programmer, it literally doesn't matter what engine you choose if you're a solodev, as long as you're not using some kind of an obscure meme engine or you swallow the enginedev pill. for the first 10k hours all you will be doing is just learning the engine/language and making prototypes completely unrelated to your main project. if you start doing a project you want before that, you'll realize pretty quick that your scope is too large, you have no idea how to do some things and generally it'll be a hot mess. Do tutorial projects first, like arkanoid, a simple platformer, a simple shmup if you want, that sort of thing.
Also coding is 10% of a project.

Attached: 1516384890168.jpg (1920x1080, 651K)

the boilerplate code for serializing all of the data types needed by an entire engine is not only incredibly tedious to write, but also quickly grows to an unmanageable scale
i mean seriously you basically need to support the entire COLLADA standard if you're writing a modern engine
that's a fuckload of shit

>coding is 10% of a project.
only if you're making really simple games

no, it's the same for pretty much any scale that's not a placeholder prototype

>the boilerplate code for serializing all of the data types needed by an entire engine is not only incredibly tedious to write, but also quickly grows to an unmanageable scale
it really isn't
a load and save function for every serializable data type is not a problem and if they're large and incredibly tedious you're doing something wrong
and don't use COLLADA, it's terrible, pick a better format, I wrote an FBX importer and it's only ~1000 lines

its about 40% on average, game studios don't hire programmers to sit around twiddling their thumbs

*cough* EA *cough* *cough* bioware *cough*

Attached: 1555210833457.png (222x211, 4K)

are studios that employ programmers, what are you trying to say?

I wish the gamedev industry wasn't such a cesspool of laziness fueled by autism. It's been more than 30 years and most of the games are still either fantasy trash for children and freaks or hollywood cliche """""""serious"""""" garbage. The evolution of games as an art form has been completely stumped, even in the indie scene.
Don't just abandon that engine, abandon gamedev

You actually want your CPU to be fully used.

>ECS gives you much better performance
ECS gives you much better performance for large amounts of dumb objects, so yeah I'm sure that's working out great for their video game which probably has 16-32 players on the level at most

Your IQ is room temperature.

>its about 40% on average
[citation needed]

look at the staff ratio of artists to programmers at a typical game studio

ECS being the silver bullet to game programming is kind of a meme to be honest.

The less unreal engine games the better.
The games are ugly and none of them control well and inputs just feel detached.

Only shovelware and flavour-of-the-month FPSs use third party engines. Great games use engines made in house.

so i did

>Ubisoft Montreal is undoubtedly one of the major player in this industry with many popular titles from their selves like Watch Dog, Assassin's Creed series, Far Cry Series. It has more than 2700+ employees. From 245 salaries registered in Glassdoor with 34 different job titles, roughly around 87 people registered their job title related to programming ( Ubisoft Salaries in Montreal, QC )

>Bioware is another popular AAA title supplier with major hits like Mass Effect trilogy, Dragon Edge series. Its has nearly 800 employees and with 41 employees listed in United States and 24 other listed in Canada, Bio ware has 11 people in job roles related to programming according to BioWare Salaries in Canada

>Blizzard Entertainments, known for their MMORPGs like Warcraft series, has a total employee strength of 2700 by the year 2012. Now with 655 salaries registered in Blizzard USA across 265 job titles, there are roughly 100 entries for job roles related to programming ( Blizzard Entertainment Salaries )

>From the observation, it can be concluded that there are around 10-30% job roles in major game development companies are related to programming.
also, i actually made a game, a shit one made in a month, but i made it and coding was around 20% because i suck at it. i know people in some local gamedev companies and they say the same thing, around 10%. And notice i'm not saying "number of employees is 10%", i'm saying man-hours-wise, it's around 10%, maybe 15%

I said "artists to programmers" ie the people actually working on the game. you're comparing programmers to every employee. Most employees at big game companies dont do production work directly on the game.
Compare the artists to programmers credited for a typical game production, for example
mobygames.com/game/windows/overwatch/credits
mobygames.com/game/ps3/mass-effect_/credits
mobygames.com/game/windows/far-cry-3/credits
they're roughly the same size

the bar for entry is lower, so there's shittier games. The engine is quite good though, with some excellent games on it. RoR2 comes to mind, and it runs like a dream.

>"artists to programmers"
dude, why the fuck do you cling to this ratio? first of all, it doesn't say shit about the man hours required to do thing, second of all, are you saying there's only programmers and artists making games? no QA? No game design? no balance design? no VAs, analysts, story, localization? come on man.

Game production is art and programming. And design of course, but that kind of work is harder to measure seeing it's sitting around thinking and not production. Everything else like sound, writing is a small auxiliary task. QA aren't game developers, they only test the game, if QA was game development then you're a game developer for playing PTRs on MMOs

>or is it so bad I might aswell fuck off to another engine?
It's the industry standard for a reason.

>this entire post
you could've just said that you're a brainlet that knows jack shit about gamedev
> Everything else like sound, writing is a small auxiliary task.
AAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAA, are you serious right now? sound design is fucking huge, how can you be so wrong

I've worked as a gamedev for 25 years. Sound design is not huge, it's a small, auxiliary part of production and smaller studios don't even have dedicated audio people more often than not and just use contractors. It may have a big impact on you as a player but from a production perspective it's very small. Same with writing outside of maybe RPG studios

I thought the standard procedure at most big companies was keep as few devs as possible to avoid paying for full-time employee benefits. People contracted for one project at a time and then fired instantly when the game is released. Hundreds, if not thousands of programmers who end up not being listed on those employee statistics.

>I've worked as a gamedev for 25 years
no you didn't
>Sound design is not huge, it's a small, auxiliary part of production
so like witcher 3 sound devs didn't go out and literallly sat in a blacksmith shops and medieval fairs to record all that shit, then got folk musicians to record their songs and got a shitload of dialogue to record? it just all sprung from the earth by itself like leprechauns in your fantasy la la land?
>yeah but indie devs
so indie devs don't sit and sift through sound banks to get sounds they want, then put them in game, then remaster with their mediocre skills, or maybe record some stuff by themselves, it's all a small job for a single person, right?

>not using the best game engine because your feelings are hurt
Yikes

>it's got best grafixx so that means it's the best
that's a yikes from me dawg

Are you an idiot? What does your example have to do with anything? The sound team on any game is still very small if it even exists at all. Look at the links I just posted. It's not uncommon for a game that has hundreds of artists to have ONE composer that does all of the music. You're arguing against reality.

>so indie devs don't sit and sift through sound banks to get sounds they want, then put them in game, then remaster with their mediocre skills, or maybe record some stuff by themselves, it's all a small job for a single person, right?
A task that takes a few days compared to the months or years you'll be spending on everything else

>It's not uncommon for a game that has hundreds of artists to have ONE composer that does all of the music.
>mobygames.com/game/windows/overwatch/credits
>literally 50 people in "sound"
are you an idiot?

Is there an easy software for making characters?
I made a character with 3DSMAX but it took me over a month to get it right.

theres 10 people in audio, and about 50 people each in art and programming

Is C++ of blueprints the only option with UE4.

I know 4 languages but C++ is not one of them and i always imagine blueprints as limiting. Is it?
Not a gamedev here, i mean it just as some hobby.

Why are there like 7 versions of Unity to download from the Official Hub? Which one should I download ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHY CAN'T IT BE MORE SIMPLER, AND ON THE EDGE BROS I NEED HELP..

Seriously though I read your posts and said what the freak, so I'll be diddling with unity for 3 hours and try to post something here.. Pls which version ? and why are there so many aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

ok downloading the oldest, fuck you guys.

> 7 versions of Unity
u wat? there's only one unity, you mean license options?

UE4 is such a bad engine for game mechanics.

Builds, I meant builds.. I downloaded the oldest one. the 2017 one.. I chose the personal license like a good autist.

Lol y thaught i was the only one interested in it. Although Its in pre alpha i think its in pretty good state. And plus, the game is drm free. No need of Internet or epic games launcher

Why did they completely abandon the IP? It had somewhat basic lore and good mechanics, they didn't capitalize on it and not even the fans bothered with making a success out of it, strange, shit from the same era like warcraft gave birth to lol and dota but nothing good came out of Unreal Tournament other than some console games and of course Gears of War which is shit, fuck you cliffy you white nigger, but please don't kill yourself, your misery is too beautiful to stop.

nobody likes Unreal Tournament

nobody likes a bigot

The answer is fortnite. Sad but true.
They indeed stated that they are leaving ut for focusing more on that bullshit battle royale.

Shooter games is one of the most saturated videogame genres. There is already tons such as cs:go, cod, bf1&5, halo, apex legends... Sadly many people forgot about ut but for me remains as one of the best fps ever.

telling the truth doesnt make me a bigot

I still don't understand what makes battle royale so fun to some audiences. I played all of them, including the mobile versions, they're okay but nothing to sperg and obssess about. I see so many folks even spending shit ton of money on those games. I don't get it, friendos.

>I still don't understand what makes battle royale so fun to some audiences
Ideally you have progressive, strategic gameplay where the game unfolds over half an hour or so with looting, travelling and combat as opposed to a normal FPS where it's a short round of combat then rinse repeat
The randomness also works in its favour by making it more friendly to casual players but that's vastly overstated by people who just don't like BRs and want to say they take no skill

So they're kinda mobalike, maybe that's why I don't like them.