Joel decides that the ends don't justify the means, the most common aesop in all media

You only don't want humanity to go extinct because of your feeligns.

>ends don't justify the means
They do though, in this case. Besides, it makes everything you do in the game absolutely pointless. By the end of the game you've achieved nothing, nothing has changed and everyone went back to their old ways

inb4
>b-but the recording says they found others like her!
No such recording exists.

>Joel decides
That's the problem, Joel decides to be a dumb cunt but for some reason Jew in charge wants me to pull the trigger. I don't agree with this sudden character change, you forgot to change my mind, Jew, you only changed the mind of the character. Why would I pull the trigger? Give me another option or I get ludonarrative dissonance

>Presented with several damning examples throughout the entire story that humanity as a whole is vile, cannibalistic, oppressive murderers and not worth saving.
>No guarantee whatsoever that lobotomizing Ellie would save anyone.
>HURR JOEL OS EBIL AND SHELLFISH

I liked TLoU for the game it was, but I am content with pretending the DLC and the upcoming sequel don't exist.

Wasn't there a readable journal somewhere in the game that said that they already had multiple specimen yet they couldn't develop a vaccine yet, so Ellie maybe would've died for nothing?

>explain
current zeitgeist

Killing one person to save everyone is worth it. Even if it's only a chance. This is black and white.

I say this every thread and have never seen anyone else bring it up but here goes.
The fungus in the last of us has no other hosts than humans and its lifespan is also significantly shorter.
Humanity is not doomed by any means. All it takes is gasmasks and surviving for a couple more generations. A possible vaccine produced by the death of ellie would only serve to save people stupid enough to somehow let themselves get infected since it's clearly shown in the game to be easily avoided.
I don't get what all the fuss is about.

joel did nothing wrong

Joel was a conservative American being told to sacrifice his family values to promote unattainable ideals as espoused by easily swayed liberals. Though Ellie is herself a liberal, Joel knew she was too young and too stupid to be making these choices. Enforcing his right to bear arms, he stormed the college campus and killed the med students and all liberals who stood before him. Last of Us 2 is here to demonstrate that no matter how hard you try, your surrogate daughter will still grow up to be a faggot.

There's a dozen areas that have fungal growth spewing spores around in what does not appear in any way to be human. Even if there is human flesh in there as a basis I doubt strongly these will keel over and die due to organ failure.

At last i truly see

>he is a man with an empty nest syndrome
>creepy implications ensue

No lol you don't know the whole story obviously

>serve to save people stupid enough to somehow let themselves get infected
So you're saying those people don't deserve to live? Pretty sure Ellie herself is infected, so she doesn't deserve to live either then. Sorted, cut her open boys

It's seen in the game. Cordyceps so old that they pose no threat. I can't recall where this is exactly since it's been ages since I played the game.
The fungus grows on the environment but requires a human host to reproduce, the growths can be burned until they're safe.
It's not a convincing extinction scenario.

holy fucking based

No I'm laying out the situation to point out why in the grand scheme of things it's not worth killing her. I don't see your point. It's not about passing judgement and morals, just being practical.

fpwp

I felt like the DLC served the singular purpose of making Ellie a lesbian. There was no foreshadowing of note in the original game.

its almost like some people have different opinions

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There's a document that says based on their research they're going to have to extract the parasite for study, and that will kill Ellie. Nothing indicating they had other immune subjects unless they put it in the re-releases.

Though I have no fucking clue why the Fireflies went straight to vivisection other than to make Joel's reaction into a life and death situation. I'd assume they'd want every possible research asset they could get, and keeping her alive for a couple weeks to take blood samples would probably help them. Shit they should have Ellie biting people and putting them in quarantine before amoral experiments result in killing her.

>child
>brain not fully formed yet
>female
>proven to have smaller amygdalas than men, which shows a reduced ability to detect future threats
>let her choose

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>in the grand scheme of things it's not worth killing her
Are you fucking retarded? You don't understand your argument and you need me to break it down for you? Okay. You're saying
>possible vaccine produced by the death of ellie would only serve to save people stupid enough to somehow let themselves get infected
So you're implying there that killing her is not worth because multiple lives of those who "were stupid enough to get infected" are less valuable than her life. But she is one of those "stupid enough to get infected". So what are you saying? That you shouldn't kill 1 to save hundreds? Would you let Hitler be with that logic?

so damn true

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I don't think you can use "the grand scheme of things" to justify your argument that sacrificing one person isn't worth it to save many.

The fireflies were incompetent. Their "brain surgeons" were actually non-surgeon retards who couldn't even perform a biopsy without murdering the patient. They only rushed Ellie into the operating room because the organization was on the brink of collapse after many days of hardship and travelling, ready to mutiny against Marlene, and Ellie was the last distraction she could use to stay in charge and try and keep everything together.
The ragtag group could never have developed a cure for a fungal virus like this, especially if the world ended in 2013. That's super cutting edge medicine even now, and they were running equipment on generators. I'm sure the remains of various governments had tried shit like this for a decade+ in their bunkers and installations

through collectables you find that the fireflies have killed many other naturally immune people in the name of research and they had made no progress towards a cure.

Plus like the other user said the remaining humans can just wait out the infection, once the infected naturally die the infection won't spread any more. The army could speed it up by firebombing all the cities

Are you okay dude? Having a hard time believing you're this emotionally invested into this.
Also pretty sure it's you who doesn't understand my argument. I'm not gonna reply unless you try to understand what I wrote above.

>B-BUT JOEL KNEW THE FIREFLIES WERE INCOMPETENT

No he didn’t. Stop this meme. He saves Ellie because he wants a daughter. He isn’t thinking about the practical effects of his actions. That isn’t his character and you know it. Joel isn’t making some 4D chess decision about what will save humanity and your blatantly desperate excuse-making is stupid.

The point of the ending is that he didn’t move on from his losses. That’s textually obvious. You’re using your emotional attachment to the characters as a basis to justify anything they do, which is exactly what the game wants you to do up until the point where Joel lies to Ellie and you realize he’s learned nothing. Whether you like that ending or not is up to you, but shut the fuck up with this headcanon nonsense about Joel suddenly and silently realizing the Fireflies can’t be trusted to do this.

He's saying that at the time of Ellie's supposed operation, the various camps knew enough about the fungi to outlast it. Cutting Ellie open was bot a desperate necessity. It was a curiosity that could potentially lead to power over other groups as demonstrated by a group of people who had already fucked up quite enough. Firefly sympathizers are faggots.

this, humanity has bigger problems then walking fungi monsters. if anything, having a population reduction consisting of only those who are immune is a safer, more stable way to restart civilization.

Read my first post. I'm saying that it won't save many in the first place and that humanity as a whole will most definitely survive without her sacrifice. That's the grand scheme of things I'm referring to.

yeah better save a world full of rapists and murderers
humanity is fucked joel did nothing wrong

>through collectables you find that the fireflies have killed many other naturally immune people
Where? I keep hearing people say this but I've gotten the scavenger trophy and recall nothing of it.

I still think that a sequel was a bad idea.
The plot should've been about other survivors or how the world grew into crisis desu.

Unironically this.

Society has been irreparably changed, and for the worse. Who gives a shit if the infection was finally vanquished? You're still left with a world in total ruin.

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Fuckwads gonna fuckwad sure. But civilization would benefit from being able to leave their walled compounds without the only prevailing thought being to kill everyone they come across for their own safety.

I mean given choices do you think everyone would choose to be a cannibal rapist? Or are most of them cannibal rapists because they don't want to be thrown out of the armed community lead by cannibal rapists?

>let's go against all immunology principles and kill our only immune subject
the writer of this shit was a clueless retard.

For a board who hates the last of shit so much, you fags sure "played" it.
Fuck off already.

What the fuck should i give a flying fuck about the infected fags, if you could find a vaccine for free cool man, but that wasn't the situation, you were killing someone you actually care about for the chance of a cure, from the fucking fireflies no less, organization that proved to be mentally retarded multiple times

>b-but the recording says they found others like her!
>No such recording exists.
youtu.be/jtu918mfeHc?t=98
>as we've seen in all past cases

the "past cases" are previously immune people who the fireflies got ahold of, they mention Ellie is slightly different from them, but that DOES NOT mean that cutting her brain open was 100% the secret to the cure with no shadow of a doubt

there also exists the possibility that a cure is LITERALLY impossible, and that only through immune people breeding can the human race be saved
but we'll never know because the fireflies were performing fatal surgery on every single one they got, in an attempt to save their own lives and wrest control of the USA via holding the cure hostage (if they ever managed to do it)

I placed my self in Joels shoes just like most games.
>Would I have killed them for selfish reasons?
Yeah, they fucked with me so I'd kill them.
>What about Ellie?
Who?
I honestly don't remember much about this boring shity game, Only that they crossed him for righteous reason or something like that so I felt nothing killing them.

The fireflies were fucking morons. They've never made progress towards a cure BUT YA THEY'LL TOTALLY GET IT RIGHT WITH ELLIE. Fuck you and fuck the fireflies. Joel did nothing wrong.

>through collectables you find that the fireflies have killed many other naturally immune people in the name of research and they had made no progress towards a cure.

I will fight this retardation in every single thread I see it and have done so since the game's launch.

>Surgeon's Recorder
>April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.

Every single time someone says that there's a collectible that says the Fireflies have actually had other immune people and that they've killed, they out themselves as illiterate or purposefully idiotic.

>Just like all the other cases of infection we've seen, Ellie has these indications the infection is present, BUT all these negative symptoms are not present in her case.

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Fuck you, idiot.

Because the ends do justify the means, faggot.

ok, but in your quote
>The cause of her immunity is uncertain

they don't even know what the fuck they are looking for
"oh so better cut her brain open, we'll surely figure it out then! oh wait she died and we didn't figure it out....oh well, better hope another one comes along"

Kill yourself you mindless drone. Imagine feeling like belonging on Yea Forums, how pathetic can you be.

One, don't move your stupid goalposts and just admit you got it wrong.

Two, the reason it's called a vaccine and not a cure is because they had no intention of treating the infection; they were going to just take a splice of Ellie's infection, reproduce it, and infect people with it. The goal is inoculation through infecting people with a benign version of the infection so that they cannot get infected by the type that turns people into rabid humans.

Whether or not the Fireflies could actually produce a viable vaccine or even have the means of reproduction and distribution is ultimately moot; that's not the point of the scene in the story or to the characters. It's a dramatic conceit for the purpose of forcing Joel to make a choice between humanity or Ellie. That's how he looks at it. That's how the Fireflies look at it. That's how Ellie herself even looks at it (since she has heavy suspicions about what happens and she's riddled with survivor's guilt, as evident from her little dialogue about Riley and Tess and Henry all dying from the infection while she gets to live).

Joel is an idiot and I think he would have sacrificed humanity for his fee fees given the choice but I also think the fireflies plan was absolutely retarded too. Knowing she’s the only immune specimen they have she should be studied and protected at all costs until much much more research can be done. Also statistically speaking there have to be others who are immune as well

Like, how does looking at someones brain even produce a vaccine?

I can't remember, do they explain it as they can make a vaccine from the fungus that has grown in her brain?

A brain surgeon should definitely be able to remove a portion of the fungus, if not all of the fungus, with out killing the patient

Even if they made a vaccine, how on earth would they produce it?

Why is a brain surgeon suddenly an immunology expert?

I know they take classes on it, but there's no fucking way a brain surgeon would know how to create or mass produce a vaccine

I'm this
And I agree with Joel's choice.
Also, reading your replies, you fuckers don't understand what you read.
"ONE PERSON MIGHT BE THE KEY", not that Ellie was the only one. Fireflies are retards but that doesn't mean they didn't learn shit while disecting inmune brains.

>Joel decides that the ends don't justify the means, the most common aesop in all media
He made no such decision. You did not understand the ending. Joel did not even consider the moral implications of his choice, it didn't matter. He made the selfish choice, to save Ellie over mankind, because she mattered to him more than anything else at that point. Whether it was the right thing to do never even entered his mind at any point before or after the decision. That is why the ending is good, it's very human.

>Whether or not the Fireflies could actually produce a viable vaccine or even have the means of reproduction and distribution is ultimately moot; that's not the point

I disagree, that changes the context ENTIRELY
if they can't produce a vaccine, then leaving her with them is a futile waste of life, they would be killing her for no fucking reason at all, which is hardly a "moot point"
would I leave her with a group of morons who barely have functioning power, whose first instinct upon getting an immune person is fatal surgery with barely any testing done?
fuck no
Joel couldn't have been knocked out for more than a few hours, and they were going to kill her THAT fast, despite the audio recording making it clear that she was unique, and they have currently a 0% success rate with all the other immune people they have received (you don't see any of them at the hospital, why not? oh because they are FUCKING DEAD)
there needed to be months of tests and care put into examining her before killing her outright

>what is guaranteed to happened when you slice open ellies head
she gonna die
>what isn't guaranteed to happen
a vaccine

Yeah lemme just kill my daughterfu for no reason because some retard in a ragtag terrorist organization wants me to lmao okay pal

Thanks you. I dont know why this is so hard to grasp.

I liked the ending, beautifully human.

Shame we are getting a sequel.

He's a Fucking White Male.

Even at that point, they are still trying to push a fucking HASTY SURGERY on something they likely know nothing about. Didn't they say the fungus literally can't live long anyways? Like just fucking stop going places for a year and bam, no more infections, fungus dies out.

>coming from someone who hasn't played the game but saw playthroughs because no ps3

>joel gets knocked out before even being able to say a fucking thing to the guards
>they immediately start fucking prepping for surgery the moment they get ellie
what the fuck is this, are they about to be invaded by a coordinated mold strike??

>joel gets knocked out before even being able to say a fucking thing to the guards
yeah that always rubbed me the wrong way, and says a lot about how the fireflies operate

>hey there's 2 people down there, let's check it out
>oh it looks like a teenage girl nearly drowned and an older man (her father?) is performing CPR on her
>let's knock him out before he succeeds
what the actual fuck?

Their plan is to "remove the infection" so they can produce a vaccine. Joel interjects with "but it grows all through the brain." Marlene coolly replies, "It does."

In-game, they're trying to remove the host fungus from the brain so they can study and reproduce it, as it's a benign version of the infection which will make sure people are inoculated. Of course, you're right on every account of questioning the hows of their plan. The writer isn't a brain surgeon, pathologist, biologist, or immunologist. They don't have doctorates in cellular or molecular biology or microbiology.They're not going to know the ins and outs of all these things and honestly, stories don't usually need all this (depending on the tone of the story, I guess). Many people argue that if the Fireflies brain surgeons couldn't perform a simple brain biopsy, then they shouldn't be trusted to create a cure.

But again, it's not really the point. I'm sure if pressed for answers, the writers would think of all kinds of handwaves for these questions (biopsy is already basically handwaved by the characters keeping it vague as to what it means that the infection "grows all through the brain" as a holistic entity that needs to be taken out all at once). Ultimately it doesn't matter.

I feel like reading just the first part of things is a trend for you since that's exactly what you did with the recorder transcript.

The point is that none of these things register or even matter to the players. None of what you're talking about regarding the Fireflies' competence, their means of production, their lack of credentials, their research and clinical trial process, etc. even registers to Joel. He doesn't ever think about it and it plays no part in his decision making.

And since this whole thread is about Joel's decision, as he and the rest of the in-game world saw it, to save one life over millions, it's dumb to frame it in ways the character doesn't know or care about.

>Reminder that there's no guarantee that the process would've worked

You don't need a guarantee. Even a 0.1% chance to SAVE ALL HUMANITY is more than enough to kill some dumb slut for.

So can we agree the ending was a bit what the fuck and out of no where? I already saw the whole he treats ellie as his daughter and would do 'anything' to keep her since he lost his first one

also that real dumb shit with the lady ally npc being bit at the beginning, pure ugh

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>The point of the ending is that he didn’t move on from his losses. That’s textually obvious. You’re using your emotional attachment to the characters as a basis to justify anything they do, which is exactly what the game wants you to do up until the point where Joel lies to Ellie and you realize he’s learned nothing.

It's kind of weird because you could also view the arc from the exact opposite direction: Joel does move on from his losses. It's how Druckmann talked about the story. I think he described the story as "Joel learns how to be human again."

I'd say that both versions are supported by the text. It just depends on whether or not you view his decision as a negative, he didn't learn, or a positive, he did learn.

Joel NOT moving on from his losses is what causes him to be cold and callous toward people in general, causing him to be a brutal bandit that alienated his brother. It's what causes him to never really develop a proper relationship with Tess (who desperately refers to their relationship as "whatever this is" with frustrated arm waving) and to be emotionally distant with Ellie for most of the game. He lost his daughter, it was incredibly painful, so he doesn't want to form that kind of bond with anyone ever again.

Over the course of the game he allows himself to form that bond again, for better or worse, and chooses to save what's important to him rather than be told to sacrifice for what's important to everyone else. It kind of goes both ways.

>Even if that person has to die.
lol no

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He did the objectively wrong thing
But thats why he's so good

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It's really rushed and contrived, but I felt it was still thematically satisfying. I think the good outweighed the bad with the ending. The whole Firefly thing could have been spaced better, for sure, but I feel that way about a lot of stuff and most people think my ideas are garbage for gameplay.

Hell, I think there should have been one night in Tommy's town where you get to do the whole walking exploration thing, but in a friendly and non-hostile environment to see how Joel and Ellie actually interact with other people and to smooth that transition where Joel and Ellie literally ride off for hundreds of miles on a whim after a brief gunfight in the cabin. Joel does kind of a 180 immediately after the gunfight too and I think one night of him thinking it over would have made the character feel more believable.

Adding something like this to the Fireflies section of the game, where you two actually just make it there, Marlene welcomes you with open arms, and then Joel and Ellie stroll around to get a grasp of just how dire and desperate the Fireflies are (put some hidden conversations off to the side where scientists are whisper yelling about what they should do with Ellie because of their findings before they hastily slam a door or close a window to the player for foreshadowing) and to also allow the player to familiarize themselves with the space so that they're more prepared when shit hits the fans and dudes with automatic rifles are hunting Joel.

It just needed a lot more room to breathe and to properly set the stakes. As is, the game rushes the player through that whole section to try and blind them to how ridiculous the situation is.

But I do actually really like the scene in the meadow outside of Tommy's town; the very end.

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>So can we agree the ending was a bit what the fuck and out of no where?
No it's just scientifically nonsense. It serves its purpose just fine, after all it's a videogame drama and not a documentary.
As spectators we can discuss whether or not Joel's decision was ethically and morally correct but bringing science into the discussion makes it all pointless because it removes the need for the decision to be made entirely, or so it would be if the writers gave scientific accuracy a thought, but they didn't.

The entire ending is fucking retarded.

"We're going to immediately kill her and dissect her brain because maybe we'll find a cure that way."
What the fuck?
Maybe study her and do a bunch of tests to be absolutely certain before destroying your only specimen.

Or at least wait until her psychotic and extremely dangerous guardian is out of earshot.

Humanity doesn't need zombies to doom itself up like no other fucking species.

Also, you are that kind of brainlet to give everything away if someone says to you it's going to be ok?
Who had proof that opening Ellie would provide a cure? Can you honestly blame Joel if he decided to don't place his trust into shady ass doctors that he doesn't know in a universe where people stopped being professional doctors 10 years ago?

I'm going to be edgy as hell but hear me out *ahem; fuck humanity.*

What are the chances of meeting another immune person in Part 2?

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I hate her so yes.

You're over thinking it. The idea that the fireflies would have failed goes against the themes of the story. Thematically, Joel saves Eli because he doesn't think humanity is worth saving if it means sacrificing the only good he sees in it.

Sure, you could read it as Joel saves Eli because the fireflies' plan makes no fucking sense. But that's an effect of how bad the writing is rather than intended subtext.

suck my dick for a 0.1% chance to cure cancer user trust me I'm a scientist

WTF, i thought Yea Forums hated the first The Last of Us, so it was all just memes and shitposting?