Why do people complain about having to fight multiple enemies at once in this game?

Problem, reddit?

I did, I just beat ds2 and started ds3 a few hours ago.

Because they're shit and because hating DS2 is a meme like hating pineapples on pizza

Most Demons Souls and Dark Souls 1 multiple enemy gank encounters feel like they are designed to be "broken" that is not actually fought that way, either because you carefully manage aggro or you abuse the environment to your advantage, basically the developers tricking you into they wanted you to fall into the trap but you outsmarted them even though that was their intention all along. DS2, and DS3 as well, feel like you are supposed to be fighting head-straight into multiple enemies in a hit in run style of combat. There are some exceptions in those games, for example the encounter in the Forest of Fallen Giants where there are multiple hollow playing dead is great example of doing aggro management to defeat a gank, there is a lot of this in the DLC too.

*dabs on DS2 subhumans*

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I'm playing Dark Souls 1 for the first time and I could use some advice.

I'm exploring around between the Undead Burg, Undead Parish, and Darkroot Garden/Basin. I got to the New Londo Ruins from the Valley of Drakes, but I ran out of temporary curse items and can no longer kill the ghost bitches there, so I gave up exploring it for now. I found and killed the Moonlight Butterfly in the Darkroot Garden, and gave the Ember thing to the blacksmith in the Parish, but I can't upgrade my Battleaxe beyond +5 for some reason, and I don't know if I should spend these 20k souls I have now on levels and upgrading my weapons or save it for later and look for a way to Blight Town. I also don't know what to do with the Moonlight Butterfly's soul I got, so I'm kind of lost at the moment.

I played the game solely to fight multiple enemies at once
Bellcunt hunting was the best PVP the series has ever had, you cannot prove me wrong

Do you have the pic with the get smoked hat

you can get more of those curses from the undead merchant in the sewers, that crazy lady behind bars, or you can rush your way trough new londo to one of the roofs, there's a ladder in what appears to be a fireplace in one of the rooms, on the roof theres a guy clothed in red which sells infinite curses

Nahh sorry.

>kill the bell ringing ghouls so the ghosts don't show up
>it's just the 2 knights now

literally get gud

Or you can keep from doing this and move on to the depths like you're supposed to at that moment in the game. Go to the place where you found Solaire and open the door downwards there.

Because the multiple enemy groups rarely complement each other, they are usually (Though not always) just the same enemy spammed.

Because hating on Dark Souls 2 is a meme and they're trying to justify it, even though all the games in the series feature many encounters with multiple enemies. Same thing with the healing system, hitboxes and warping between checkpoints.

>Make the game easier
>This is how you get gud
They should add an easy difficulty so you can get REAL gud amirite?

>undead merchant in the sewers
Is that in the New Londo Ruins? Or some other place? Cause the only Undead merchant I recall meeting was in the Undead Burg, and he doesn't sell curses.

>that crazy lady behind bars
The girl at the Firelink Shrine? You can interact with her? Every time I talked to her it said she can't speak, even when I gave her the Fire Keeper Soul I got in the Parish and upgraded my Estus Flask. Or is it someone else?

>or you can rush your way trough new londo to one of the roofs, there's a ladder in what appears to be a fireplace in one of the rooms, on the roof theres a guy clothed in red which sells infinite curses
That sounds swell, but there were like a billion ghosts in the second building I encountered there so I'm not sure if I want to take the risk for that. I'll keep that in mind though.

Oh and another thing, is there a way to get to the bonfire in the Undead Parish across the big bridge where that red dragon guards? Every time I try he roasts the entire bridge, instakilling me, and the gate is sealed from the other side of the Parish.

The merchant is in that corridor you take to go from firelink shrine to the undead burg.

Because unlike other games in series where the character speed and responsiveness allows to deal with crowds nicely, DS2's underwater clunky ass combat severely gimps the player to a point pulling enemies out and destroying ranged attackers prior to the encounter is ALWAYS the best option.

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The netcode in this game is such a garbage I don't even know how you can have fun.

Shoot the dragon with an arrow or two, it'll make him fly down to the bridge giving you a small window to run past him.

You know you don't have to play the game online, right?

See You'll meet the crazy merchant lady there.

Just remembered, there's a gate blocking your way to the merchant. You have to go to the bottom of the undead burg first and unlock it from the other side. It's past the capra demon.

Yeah, I couldn't open that gate, and there's a gate in the Undead Burg that says I can't open it from this side either. I guess I'll do what and are saying and check out the place around Solaire again.

Alright cool, I'll try that after I find the next place to go, since I don't want to waste all these souls trying something risky when I can purchase something nice first.

It's not about having to fight multiple enemies. The game was just shit on a lot of levels. They didn't know how to make good enemies so they just make it where you aggro ten at a time in too many places. It wasn't hard, but it felt lazy. The game is just quantity of quality in so many aspects and that's a glaring example. Another would be some of the lame areas that were just big and repetitive.

Because it's the slowest game in the series and the enemies they throw at you in groups have slow 3 hit combos which makes fighting them take forever if you don't tank them.

Oh god these fucking dogs trapped me from moving while the demon killed me
I was warned about this too, fuck off you literal bitches

>he finally got to capra demon
have fun

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There goes the 20k cause I got confused. Fucking dogs.

soul memory

Try running past them up the stairs. It gives you some time to kill the dogs while the demon tries to get you.

You didn't have to go fight the boss. There's stairs downwards to the right of his fog door.

game has many problems like soul memory or ADP stat, but if you complain about too many enemies then you're just a shitter

You still have to get the key to the depths.

New Londo is a lategame area, don't go there yet.
You need another Ember which you can find in the Depths to upgrade past 5+. The Depths is after Lower Undead Burg, and you can get a key there from Undead Parish.
Later in the game, boss souls can let you craft unique weapons.

>Covenant of champions

Maybe a sorcery build was a mistake. Are hexes a lot better?

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Because they couldn't git gud.

Run up the stairs to the left, jump over to the right, onto a small ledge. Block with a shield and let the dogs come to you, and then kill them.
Then repeat this same strategy with the Capra Demon. He will try to jump onto your ledge, and fail, which lets you plunge attack him

Alright cool, running up the stairs did the trick and let me off the dogs. The Capra Demon was a lot easier than I expected, but I guess that's cause I've been doing things out of order thanks to the Master Key gift I chose letting me do all that.

Roll, baby, roll. It's the one tool you know how to spam. Meanwhile I can line up multiple enemies to take staggering hits from a big weapon's swings.

Git gud!

You don't need that key if you want to go spend your souls with the merchant.

Is there anything in particular I should buy from this merchant? I already have 10 purple and red mosses from killing Ents while exploring the Darkroot Garden. Perhaps some fire or poison arrows?

Buy the stone that gets rid of curse and perhaps a bunch of poison arrows.

Purging stone is always good to have, last thing you want to deal with is curse.

People complain about the most inane shit and are ignoring the glaring faults like magic/miracles being completely useless in the dlcs, enemies doing 360 spins, red phantoms being annoying to fight and enemy placement being bonkers in softs as are the item placements (want to grind for hours for a heides sword when it took just 5 minutes to get it in the vanilla game?)
Fuck you and fuck your adp/hitboxes arguments

>player enemies fast = good
>player enemies slow = bad
Explain

Alright, cool. Thanks for all your help, guys. I like this game a lot. One last thing, how does magic work here? I killed the Hydra in the Darkroot Basin and then killed the Gold Crystal Golem and that lady appeared and offered to sell me spells and wands and stuff, but I don't know how to use any of that or how much of that is useful.

You need Int to cast the spell. You also need a wand/catalyst equipped. You then equip the spell at a bonfire if you have enough spell/attunement slots. Same for Miracles but they use faith and bells/chimes to cast. Pyromancy uses the pyromancy flame to cast and you just pump souls into it for more damage, works well with melee characters that don't have int or faith.

Because crutches like big weapons and good shields aren't accessible early on.
It exposed that people are just bad at the game and they took this as a personal insult.

And this is what's wrong with the first Dark Souls. The whole game is set up like a puzzle, you need to figure out the solutions to the specific things it asks.
The second game doesn't care how you take the fights, there's almost no gimmicks. It's mostly just "go beat up the guy". Especially the multi bosses like Throne Watcher and Throne Defender and the Twin Dragonriders are like that.

Watcher and Defender are a clear reference to O&S, except they're O&S done right, because the puzzle solution isn't to ignore one and just go beat up the supercharged other guy.

It's fucking baffling that there's still no mod to turn off the artificial damage resistance to spells of the DLC enemies.
The most hilarious thing is that elemental weapons still work fine, it's just spells that completely suck ass.

>magic/miracles being completely useless in the dlcs
If you can cheese the entire game by spamming Hexes from a distance, there is probably something wrong with that. So the DLCs were made so people who did that couldn't just get away with it.

I had more trouble with the Bell Gargoyles since once the second joined and started spewing flames I couldn't get close to the first to keep attacking. I eventually got it.

>exposed people are bad
WRONG. The game requires you to dump a bunch of levels into agility. Otherwise rolling has no i-frames and raising your shield takes two years.

1v2+ is DaS2 is worse than 1v2+ in any other soulsbornekiro game. The control/movement is weird especially if you don't fix the deadzones. Fighting multiple enemies when you're already fighting with the controls is not just bad, it's incredibly annoying.

You should have learned to keep your distance and not be greedy with your rolls after the first Heide Knight encounter.

Upgrading weapons is a bit more obtuse in Dark Souls since there's multiple smith masters and branching ways to max out your weapons. As for that boss soul, you can either use it for some quick souls (don't ever do this) or turn them into special weapons, using the soul and a specific weapon for each boss weapon you want.

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No idea about hexes but miracles and sorcery were completely neutered. Enemies gained gap closers, insane reach, shields and being in groups, everything to fuck you up ontop of the reduced damage. I found it night unplayable to cast even lightning spears which are relatively fast on one of the shield crystal dudes because of the reasons listed.
>there's still no mod to turn off the artificial damage resistance to spells of the DLC enemies
Because lmao, softban if you mod your game and two different versions of the game
At least we got an enemy randomizer at one point

I WARNED YOU ABOUT DOGS BRO!!!!

I TOLD YOU STAIRS!

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If you don't have ADP you can't even roll, nothing happens when you press the button! If you're gonna lie, make it bigger than that. Rolling has i-frames and leveling ADP will just give you more of them. Rolling without a lot of ADP just means you can't take as many risks.

in DS1 you can easily kite out a single enemy at a time

There is nothing wrong with gimmick bosses.

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Lightning spears were OP on launch so they got nerfed. You need to constantly use the clutch rings to pump and other magic boosting stuff to pump out good damage. By the time you get to the DLC zones you should already have a weapon enchanted with whatever magic you've chosen so just smack them around a bit.

the combat works best with 1v1 encounters

Because it wasn't always like that. The early builds of the game showed far less enemies. When they ditched the lighting they added enemies to fill the gap in difficulty.

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Hexes are 100% broken.
You need Clear Bluestone Ring +2, to fix the cast time and then you just spam Dark Orb with a Dark Sunset Staff.
You can cheese the entire game with it, since Dark Orbs actually do poise damage too.

Because they don't learn how to handle them and would rather cry that the far more interesting encounters with many more layers to them are "unfair" than take some baby steps outside their immediately established comfort zone in a videogame, the thing almost entirely based on learning and adapting new information to overcome challenges. It's the case for all of the games.

>The second game doesn't care how you take the fights
I dont understand. We have the spider which demands cycling between its heads while keeping off little spiders
We have that fire demon dude in the fire castle that sets itself on fire
we have glass shield knight dude who has his shield you cant penetrate if you dont stand correctly and a summon and many more
If anything, dark souls 2 cares exactly about its bossfights and gimmicks presented in them

Instead of making strong enemies that rush your shit if you try to fight them at distance they've decided to use the most lazy and retarded way of balancing.
But that's to be expected of DS2.
Hexes were nerfed into oblivion and at this point only like 3-4 are even usable in pve since everything else is both underpowered and requires a retarded amount of souls per cast to function.

I dunno, you tell me why they changed the enemy placement on the staircase leading to Ancient Dragon in SotFS.

>except they're O&S done right
Literally every other dual boss in series is done right compared to Watcher and Defender with their awful moveset variety and horrible animations.

I played as a pure miracle build and did completely fine in the basegame and whats the point in sorcery/miracles when
1. melee does more damage
2. is safer to use because stagger/aoe
3. demands only 1 stat investment instead of 2 like any magick school
Furthermore, mircales should have had more casts which we never got so lets see. I pumped 50 points into faith to do at least some damage and use the best catalyst. and 40 into attument to have enough casts. Im still fucked becasue all the enemy has to do is close the gap with his shield up to fuck my shit up because I dont have anough vitality to be of any threat in melee range. fuck casts fuck shield fuck gapclosers no problem i can deal with that but after all 200 damage with a single spell against an enemy with 1+k health out of 10, fuck that.
fair point but as far as im aware dark wasnt nerfed in dlcs at all so again, its miracles/sorcery that have suffered instead of the op dark

This is still false.

The difference however between all those is that Watcher and Defender force you to fight both at the same time from start to finish.

The whole concept of wanting to just spam spells and ignore melee weapons is retarded. Magic and spells are there on top of the melee combat. If you have a lightning dagger you can wreck everything in this game with your 50 FTH stat.

The whole concept of just spamming your melee weapon is retarded and you are wrong

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Because it's the games idea of an interesting or "difficult" fight. The combat is not built around fighting multiple enemies at all and any semblance of the game being fun to play falls apart when you throw 20 enemies in a building you have to run through. That's why most areas in the game are more enjoyable to just fucking run through and not even bother with (Heides, Wharf, Bastille, parts of Giants, Woods, lower part of Tseldora, Drangleic Castle, Amana, etc). While something like DS1 has these areas too, they arent nearly as abundant and those that exist are often at least interesting places to explore (Sens is a good example). The entirety of DS2 feels like the second half of DS1, or more specifically a place like Izalith, where the scenery is boring, the enemies fucking suck, and the boss at the end is a drag. If the bosses in DS2 arent mobs of shitlords then it's a single dude in a nondescript room with a limited moveset who's a complete fucking pushover. The best the game has to offer that people usually put forth that isnt a gimmick (Fume Knight) is a fucking snore compared to even the most mundane bosses from the other games. I'd much rather go back and fight Abyss Watchers or Iron Golem or Vicar Amelia or Gyoubu than I would fucking Snooze Knight.

Tl;dr game cant make mobs fun to fight neither can it make single dudes fun to fight so why play it?

Because it wasn't built for those kind of encounters, and it shows when you have to kite them across half the map so you can fight them in a conga line.

Where's youre infinite casts and rengenerating mana bar if that's the case? Stamina regens and you have more weapon durability than spell casts. This ain't world of warcraft.

Duke's Dear Freya is just a less shit version of the Bed of Chaos.
Smelter dealing constant burn damage is actually interesting, because it forces you to either keep your distance or finish the fight fast or tank through it. You have options.
I didn't even know the Looking Glass Knight did that.

What I mean when I say a "gimmick boss", I mean that there is one specific thing you need to KNOW to kill the boss really easily.
The only one in Dark Souls 2 where this applies is Freya and the Watcher/Defender fight.

I'll list off the gimmick bosses in the first game:
>Taurus Demon
Climb the tower, kill the archers, plunge attack
>Capra Demon
Climb the stairs, kill the dogs, plunge attack
>Ceaseless Discharge
Make him jump, hit his hands so he falls
>Gwyn
Parry
>O&S
Kill one, then the other one.
>Gwyndolin
>Moonlight butterfly
Wait for the ranged attacks to end so you can walk up to them and hit.
>Centipede Demon
you are on a tiny platform wait for him to come close and hit him
>Seath
Break the invincibility crystal so you can damage him
>Bed of Chaos
Jump towards a platform in a game that so far has not incentivized jumping at all.
>4 Kings
You need to have this much DPS or you die.

How many bosses in the second game can you break down like this?
Freya, the Demon of Song, the Ancient Dragon.
That's about it.

I remember when DLC2 came out and people were sperging out over how "awesome" the fume knight was and when I fought him I was totally underwhelmed. They were saying he was Artorias 2.0 but in reality he was about as exciting as the old dragonslayer.

>The combat is not built around fighting multiple enemies at all
Please explain why, without simply saying that it's more challenging to do so because that means nothing and is to be expected.

You’re intentionally blind.
Here’s a few examples:
>scorpion bitch can’t get you when she’s underground and you’re on the stones, cut off tail
>royal rat authority is just waiting for 10 seconds to kill the slightly different rat
>dragon rider is ezpz if you just pull the levers
DS2 is full of gimmick bosses, but the gimmicks there is most of the time circlehugstrafe the boss with shield up

"Crowd control is HARD hurr durr"

>scorpion bitch can’t get you when she’s underground and you’re on the stones, cut off tail
You could cut her tail?

>royal rat authority is just waiting for 10 seconds to kill the slightly different rat
fair enough

>dragon rider is ezpz if you just pull the levers
Let's be real here, it doesn't make a difference, he's one of the easiest fights And the levers are intentionally placed for you to notice and pull. It would be stranger if you accidentally fought him without them.

Congratulations, all you did was show us how their "gimmicks" (even though most of what you've listed hardly counts) make them actually interesting encounters, proving the DS developers knew how to use the constraints of the movement and combat to their advantage.

>all you did was show us how their "gimmicks" (even though most of what you've listed hardly counts) make them actually interesting encounters
Really, that's interesting?
Doing a specific thing every time you fight them so you can beat them without wasting time on them?

Dont need either because I know how to build a pure caster character but wait oh, they arent viable even in peak performance because of nerfs nerfs nerfs and enemy resistances. We get all the tools just to get bend over after 40 hours of fun. Fuck dlcs and fuck melee fags
>Duke's Dear Freya is just a less shit version of the Bed of Chaos
interesting comparison
I aggree with your points, there arent many bosses one can bullshit in ds2 but with brute force only which also applies to any ds entry. I cant say its bad tho, figuring out some cheap tactics and choosing not to use them is much more fun than not having them at all

Plus you can always just actually fight them if you were decent at the game

>>Gwyndolin
>>Moonlight butterfly
>Wait for the ranged attacks to end so you can walk up to them and hit.
>>Centipede Demon
>you are on a tiny platform wait for him to come close and hit him
Those aren't gimmicks. Those are general patterns.

Is there a way to get around the soul memory restrictions? Can I invade into higher SM tiers with a cracked eye?

How could you forget the biggest (and best) gimmick boss in DaS2? Executioner's Chariot.

oh, that was a thing.
That was horrible, yes.
But it also went further than any other boss, except Bed of Chaos.

>Parrying is now a gimmick
>Ranged attacks are now gimmicks

It is a gimmick if he is the only boss that does it.
And it is a gimmick if these two are the only bosses that do it.

If we want to give the term "gimmick" a real good stretch I would like to mention how the Ruin Sentinels arena pits you against one on a small platform with the other two below, giving you the options of trying to deal with one alone in a tight spot to lessen the group and fight them on your terms or drop below to take them all on from the start with the larger room on your side if you can keep it that way.

itt: DaS2 babbies try to defend their game WHILE FORGETTING EVERYTHING ABOUT THEIR OWN GAME
Matthewmetosis was right all along, DaS2 is forgettable.

Couple of reasons,

1) DS2's clunky movement and combat speed is bad enough on it's own that throwing multiple enemies at you is more like one more gripe with the overall combat, 2) it's not as if enemy spam is only used every so often, it makes up almost all enemy encounters (maybe 70%), leading to dullness through repetition, 3) as another user pointed out, it's not even as if these enemy spams always use creative team setups, a lot of them are usually just the same enemy but instead of one or two you are fighting ten of them, and finally 4) the enemy spams reveal an overall problem with the game's enemy design, in that very few enemies are even all that challenging or interesting on their own, and that rather than rebalance the enemies so they can still be a challenge when fought individually they instead overcompensated by relying heavily on enemy spam

Literally all the other Souls games (including BB and Sekiro) use enemy spam, but they also all dont fall into DS2's shortcomings, as they all have smoother movement, use enemy spam sparingly and use other creative encounters, are more creative with the setup of enemies in a spam, and the enemies themselves can be challenging enough to not need spam in order to make them a threat

That's not what gimmick means
Stop using words you don't know

Just like how I "specifically" wait for a boss to do their telegraphed attack that leaves an opening so I can get free hits in, except said boss appears at least 20 times without much variation to speak of. I don't what's going through your head, do you think making bosses especially difficult was the developers' intent, or are you acting like having knowledge of the game only gives you a significant advantage in Dark Souls and not 2?

Parrying is a basic game mechanic used throughout the entire game with a risk reward system. You can say the boss is poor because parrying simplifies it but it's far from a gimmick.
A lot of bosses have ranged attacks what in the fuck are you actually talking about
>Four Kings has the tracking slash
>Sanctuary Guardian has lighting breath
>Ornstein has a lightning shot
>Pinwheel has only ranged attacks
>Manus uses dark magic
>If you count breath/stream attacks Quelaag, Kalameet, and Bell Gargoyles all have ranged attacks

I can see the argument for Gwyndolin since the never ending Hallway is sort of a gimmick.

>le dark souls 2 is multiple enemies
>meanwhile every fucking fight in dark souls 3 is against 2-10

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By the end of your list I half expected you to say "wait for the boss to attack then hit him". Most of the shit you've listed is shit that just kind of makes the fight a little easier, which DS2 has in spades.

>Dragonride 1
Get him to kill himself
>Bell Gargoyles
Just have high DPS lol
>Prisoner of Azkaban
You can turn the lights on so shes easier to see and keep a lock on
>Smelter Demon
Just pop lifegems all day
>Skeleton Kings
Kill one at a time, then kill the mobs they spawn.
>Nadjka
Stand on the platform when she digs
>Royal Rat Authority
Find the one that's real. Slap until dead.
>Royal Rat Vanguard
Avoid this fight at all costs and you'll win more than if you actually fought it
>Dragonrider 2
Make sure the archer doesnt fall down while you fight the guy on the ground.
>Vendrick
Collect all the power stones for your infinity gauntlet to do damage.
>Queen Cunt
Roll through her orbs.

There are a limited amount of weapons that actually allow for decent crowd control, so most times mob fights devolve into backing up to get everyone in front of you and letting one dude attack then slapping him before anyone else can attack you. It's boring. Even when you can crowd control, the game is very keen to put you in mob situations where OOPS there was that one guy you didnt notice who comes up behind you and since you have to buy an engagement ring for all your attacks and sometimes your keylogged attacks now you're fucked because dealing with enemies behind you amounts to disengaging and trying to reassemble the pain train

Gwyndolin doesn't have a gimmick from a gameplay perspective. The neverending hallways is just there to continue to allow him to retreat endlessly while you chase him down in the same pattern. It's a gimmick from an environmental design perspective, but it doesn't affect the boss fight at all.

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But in DS3 you can sperg around rolling 6 times before stamina runs out so the babbies don't think it's hard.

I'd argue that the environment counts towards the boss, since it is the area you fight the boss in and could be seen as an extension of the boss, but I don't care too much for the subject.

How many times in DS3 are there mobs that aggro in groups that you cannot bait into 1v1 fights?

Artificial difficulty is not fun to deal with. Adding multiple enemies to a single boss fight is a really stressful and overly-non fun experience.
Out of the 19 bosses in vanilla DkS3, there's 14 bosses that don't add a single boss-type enemy to the fight.

Shut the fuck up retard.

Why are people complaining about Smelter's fire aura like it's this gamebreaking thing? Use a fire burr and a medium life-gem and you completely negate his shit.

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I'm currently playing through DS2 after playing DeS, DS, BB, and DS3 and while it's so far not my favorite, it's not as bad as I thought. Some enemy placements aren't to my liking but I enjoy memeing enemy encounters just about as much as any other souls game.

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Not to draw this topic out any longer, but I think he meant that Gwyndolin's """gimmick""" being the corridor as the setting for his fight is not something expressly designed to give you the edge or to put you at a disadvantage or whatever, since it's obvious that the entire point of the fight is for you to chase him down while using the walls as cover from his projectile attacks. Mechanically speaking it's just like any other fight.

What's the deal with Miyazaki and sons that can't live up to their father legacy?
>Gwyndollin
>Genichiro
>Lothric prince

What about that invisible chick that lives in the painting?

She was definitely not a gimmick boss..you had to know how to play the game and you had to have good enough items to win. You were also trapped there until you kill her iirc.

Really added to the sense of doom and dark occult.

If you're especially gud you can even get out of sudden bullshit ambushes and feel like a god. I find myself replaying 2 and 1 more than 3. There are so many spells, weapons and armors that there's always something new to try.

His dad probably thinks game design is a shitty job and Miyazaki should have followed in his footsteps.

Not only is it not true that the weapons allowing for crowd control are limited (I can realistically only think of daggers and axes in open combat) but no matter what weapon you use you have a much wider freedom of movement and positioning on top of how just about every area is designed. The strat you mention is one method of fighting but is in no way the only one and is a gross simplification of the act of keeping multiple enemies in position to be able to strike at the widely varying cracks. Something that has a lot more to it than fighting a single enemy where you can dedicate sole focus to just evading and countering. Not noticing someone is a bad move by the player alone, as is overextension, though unintentionally doing so is a problem with the games entirely.

SHAMEFUR DISPRAY

But that would require him to not use lock-on. And as we all know, it is physically impossible to toggle it off in ds2.

Kinda. A doctor saves lives while Miyazaki amuses (overgrown) children with his games.

do not open

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To be fair, that's the case for people playing the series, but more importantly, you can change lock on targets rapidly anyway without it getting in the way of any other actions. It's funny, that reminds me how people always say don't lock onto Ruler of the Storms but you can just swap between dragon and king as necessary.

Here's the thing, this game had the most BULLSHIT out of the entire Souls series. So many areas that were unnecessarily hard, I just got to the frigid outskirts and it might be the worst area in the game.

It's probably because the area the first smelter Demon is in has a stupid run up. They throw so many enemies at you and at the time, they are pretty hard for your level. And the fact they throw another one in the DLC is a shit show. The run to that boss is just as bad, if not worse.

The rats are annoying there and maybe the boss before the last one but the final fight is awesome. Be sure to explore every nook and cranny.

If you mean bosses: Because most "multi bosses" were uninspired bosses with boring mechanics that only relied on overwhelming the player.

If you mean normal pulls: I don't remember it being an annoyance..maybe because I only played the Scholars of the first Sin version and I know they solved much of the stuff.

I've played DksII and I'm currently playing DksI and fuck of DksI is laggy as hell

It's an easy fight just kill the dogs and roll towards him when he does the smash attack, he has few health points so It's easy to do do even without summoning anyone

Playing on the 360 I see

In the PS3 the Prepare to die edition, if I go a big scenario it gets laggy so I have to use low camera

Because I saw a youtube video that said it was bad and there's a whole reddit bandwagon that agrees with it, duh

The 360 and ps3 versions are known to run horribly.

The problem with ds2 is that they just stack high poise high hp enemies at you and they throw too much shit in between nearest bonfire and the boss room
Ds3 and ds1 reserves hard counter for path between the bonfires, typically in front of items or shortcut so you don’t have to repeatedly go through hard mob just to reach the boss
Ds3 is particular good at designing mob encounter for them to be managable even with head on encounter by mismatching enemies. Bosses are designed with a mix of gimmick and straight forward duel so ds3 typically regarded to have best design in the series. By comparison, ds2 depends too much on throwing multiple stuff in the boss room and have misleading hitbox and huge damage to add difficulty to a boss.

Oh look it's the one meme that DS2fags have, which is ostensibly a misquote of matthewmatosis saying that the combat is built around the lock on system. You fucking people are brainlets.

>ignores all the people making legit arguments against the game in the thread to post le reddit

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Why did you ignore my posts that were the reply and what was replied to? Is it because I was speaking generally of the series?

The archetypal example of this is the room in the Lost Bastille where like 6-7 flamberge soldiers aggro at once. Here are the problems with this encounter:
1. You can't see most of them, so if you go in without expecting it you're all but guaranteed to get killed
2. They move quickly and have a lot of poise, so you can't even fight them all at once, you have to funnel them over the bridge and kill them fast enough
3. Their attacks are the same 3 hit combos as almost every other enemy in the game, so they're really boring to fight
4. You have to drop down a ledge to get there, so you can't retreat from the encounter if you don't have the DPS to prevent them from overwhelming you
That about covers it.

>Why do people complain about having to fight multiple enemies at once in this game?
Because they're retarded and don't realize that DaS1 and DeS are also full of big enemy group encounters

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I've been pretty busy and havent had much time to put into a thoughtful response.

You're generally right that the whole series has a problem with gotcha mobs, but DS2 is the worst offender on an unprecedented level. Most of the areas in my original post have some form of gotcha moment in them, some of them more obvious than others. It's pretty clear that the devs were going for being difficult over being interesting and fun. The argument that mob fighting is more fun than 1v1s is interesting but I dont feel it holds up when the majority of enemies have an obscene amount of poise and arent very interesting on their own to begin with. I dont like fighting solo in DS2 as much as I dont like fighting mobs because the enemies are just not fun, which I've mentioned. I dont see how spears, shortswords, or rapiers are good for crowd control either. The only weapons that excel at it are great swords and longswords. This is also true of the other games, but as I've said the other games dont focus on mobs and if they do the mobs are usually built in interesting ways (combinations of complementary enemy types, enemies placed at different elevations with range, enemies that attack each other, etc.)

I AM SILLY

Sorry no. That image is the perfect way to show that scrub that he's a whiny little bitchmade shitter.

Care to address the other 3 points out of 4?

Of all the things you could have brought up you had to pick the encounter I waxed lyrical about maybe a few months ago, on top of misrepresenting it and how it's designed? Can anyone find or remember that post? It'd be much easier for everyone. I'm sure it was a reply to this image too.

No, because I'm tired of telling scrubs how to not be fucking retarded. That's why I saved that image. Especially since one of those points is straight up wrong.

>You can't see most of them, so if you go in without expecting it you're all but guaranteed to get killed
You should definitely rush through doors without paying attention.
>They move quickly and have a lot of poise, so you can't even fight them all at once, you have to funnel them over the bridge and kill them fast enough
You can actually fight them all at once, but you need to git gud
>3. Their attacks are the same 3 hit combos as almost every other enemy in the game, so they're really boring to fight
not true btw
>4. You have to drop down a ledge to get there, so you can't retreat from the encounter if you don't have the DPS to prevent them from overwhelming you
You do not?

Maybe you should just learn to play?

because of the shitty hitboxes

>The game requires you to dump a bunch of levels into agility. Otherwise rolling has no i-frames and raising your shield takes two years.
shame the game didn't warn people that iframes were put into it's own stat when in every other game they are tied to troll type.

>shame the game didn't warn people that iframes were put into it's own stat
Except of you read the tooltip for Agility, it says it improves evasion.

BASED.

Oh I beat it on champions covenant with one hand and my dick tied behind my back, the point is that it's bad design.

>the point is that it's bad design.
But it's not. You're just a whiny shitter.

But did you beat it on NG+9 without a weapon?

I miss blue flame so much, why the fuck did that not make it into ds3? A sword that has a decent moveset and good stats as well as being able to cast spells was great

Because the only thing from DaS2 that was cool enough for DaS3 was Faraam Armor, Earthen Peak and Drangleic Shield

You forgot Sneed of the tree of Chuck.

>make the game easier
do you use your roll button? that makes the game easier
do you use your block button? that makes the game easier
do you use your attack button? that makes the game easier
retard

>only 3 dead bodies outside the door
Isn't there are least 5 plus the additional 4 in the nearby room that will often join them if they don't blow themselves up with the gunpowder?

It had an absolute shit tier moveset though.

They never learned how to not use the lock on function, it makes crowd control really easy but most people insist on continuing to lock on

Greatsword made it in, the fume ugs made it, black blade made it. Also I wish twinblades had come back

>tfw a friend of mine is a coward nonsense run master
>tfw he agros a whole zone.
>I'm at the fog.
>He turns around to fight the conga line.
>He wins
>Sugoi.png
>I start doing the same thing whenever I can.
Max enjoyment.

Cope. Your game was not designed for multiple enemies at once and the only way to reasonably deal with them is to wait until the AI decides to randomly line up their attacks so they are both in cooldown. It's almost comically bad.

It had a decent r1 string which is all you need from a straight sword, the point is to be able to melee and cast at the same time

Who?

>It had a decent r1 string
It had the worst R1 string in longsword class.
Even more, the fact you were shooting from the handle meant the angle you can shoot your magic through is greatly limited. You couldn't aim and fire downwards as with any catalyst which made BF an absolute shit tier. And no matter what build you were rocking, it could never catch to good casting tools in terms of actual casting power.
All the gimmicky shit DS2 players are gushing over is actually a pile of garbage.

This, ds1 is such a forcd linear progression masked behind interconnected levels and shortcuts. Ds2 has by far the most choice in terms of where to go and in what order and how to deal with the enemies there

Git gud, seriously you're playing the game wrong if you are attempting to deal with groups in the same way you deal with single enemies

I disagree with you on the string argument but as for range i didn’t use it for sniping, I used it in close quarters. Also some gimmick stuff was really nice, the staff that worked for miracles and spells was nice

>Why do people complain about having to fight multiple enemies at once in this game?

When they don’t for literally every other Souls game? Not enough dev time to make things interesting. Silver knight archers are interesting, cheesing them is super irritating and beating them satisfying; timing the arrows, running up and parrying the cunt - fun. Amana wizard snipers? Not so fun, and invalidated with two arrows, pointless.

The only thing they managed to salvage was the PvP and build variety. Their mechanics make PvE a clunky, ugly mess - and when you understand and overcome those mechanics and “git gud” at DS2it turns into the easiest, slowest, longest Souls.

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Oh I wasn't insinuating you were him at all, it was pretty obvious he wasn't from his post and why I brought up that I'm not speaking about DS2 specifically in regards to how the combat works with multiple enemies the say I did.
I would not call a "gotcha mob" a problem in the first place, especially since I'm not sure what it's meant to be deriding and the closest thing (an ambush) is both perfectly legitimate and what the games are built around. The thing about saying that single enemies have unique mechanics or are uninteresting is that regardless, they are still made more interesting by the number increasing since more such things are happening in said encounter at once. Souls in particular has a simple modular sort of combat system that can really benefit from such things as it makes you think and utilize your options more thoroughly. These are things even the simplest of group fights come with as standard, and any more varied only get better. Spears and rapiers have long piercing ranges that let you pile up enemies with proper awareness, while the shortsword is a type of straight sword which has sweeping slashes. Many other weapons besides are similar.

The difference between the Silver Knights and the Amana Wizards is that there is precisely one correct way to face the Knights and once you know that way, the entire section ends up trivial.
The Shrine of Amana allows you to approach the Wizards in different ways. The spells are easy to dodge, they don't do too much damage individually, there is a lot of cover and like you pointed out you can easily kill the wizards with arrows.
You can approach the situation in many different ways, while you can only run really run straight at the Knight Archers. There is one way to effectively and consistently handle them and one way only.

Because I want to play a goddamn souls game, not a retarded version of Dynasty Warriors.
Even Sekiro knows that fighting groups of enemies is shit and no fun. and so rewards you for sneaking around them and picking them off one-by-one

>The Shrine of Amana allows you to approach the Wizards in different ways.

And there’s no reason to, sadly. Sniping them takes a few seconds and they’re gone. End up sucking through the area too much even after sniping them? Don’t worry they’ll start despawning. Pointless. One interesting solution over several “haha” solutions, please.

You can do that, if you want to.
I forgot that bows exist in these games, so I just dodged and killed them normally.

>Because I want to play a goddamn souls game, not a retarded version of Dynasty Warriors.
Don't play DS3 then

Because the game had its controls and weapon timings fucked to pander to duelqueers. Sticks have awful deadzones until you start running, rolls are crippled and mechanically broken on top of being too costly and the dumb roll distance bound to weight mechanic favoring playing PvE naked even harder than all the other games, you can't correct the direction you're attacking as you're stuck in place from the very first frame with the attack windups that bizarrely favor heavy weapons over medium to light weapons in length, swing recoveries get extra frames too, it's a complete mess. And yet if you look up meta duelfaggotry gameplay, it's all gay passive baiting spinning in place so the netcode can't update properly with the occasional thrusting weapon poke anyway, so the PvE is even worse than it should be for no fucking reason. What drives me mad is DaS3 ended up just as flawed in the opposite extreme instead, yet it naturally gets a pass by casuals because it's not an unfinished assets dump held together by spaghetti coding and it featured some degree of polish. Truth is no one gets what made DeS and DaS memorable, not even From's A and B team or Miyazaki, as showed by the complete lack of serious attempts at Souls clones and From's boner for mediocre traditional action games since BB.

>B-but dark souls 3
See, even (you) know that DS2 is shit. No attempt at all to defend it, instead you're trying to change the subject. Typical goalpost moving DS2 subhuman

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But DS2 is the best one.

because ds1 and ds2 both suck ass

In DaS2 you fight hordes of enemies if you aren't careful and just run pass through everything running. Which you probably do becauee you just want to clap at the end of the game to the credits.

And even then I did 3 agape runs and could pass thro everything just fine and easy. You're probably just shit at it.

>In DaS2 you fight hordes of enemies if you aren't careful and just run pass through everything running.

I.e. also DeS, DS1, DS3, BB, Sekiro...
>watching friend piss off everyone then try to sit at the Burg bonfire

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You can't fight hordes of enemies in DaS2 without abusing AI limits or broken weapon types. No shit running past everything is easy, the obscene tracking is just a poor last second attempt at improving shitty static enemy movesets that can only hit you if you actually engage these enemies. Breaking the AI isn't fun. Quickly poking enemies or casting spells or firing arrows from a safe distance because every other weapon leaves you too vulnerable isn't fun. There's a reason even the biggest Tanimura dicksuckers won't defend the PvE.

user, another option is to get a big weapon and stagger everyone, or to abuse backstab/parry immunity.
Just admit that you are bad at the game.

Because the whole game took the prepare to die meme too far

git gud

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I fundamentally disagree with you about having more enemies making encounters more interesting and also that the combat is based around ambushes. There are significant diminishing returns beyond having just two enemies to deal with. Not to say, you know, three or four enemies cant make great encounters. I just think that fighting all of a single type of enemy gets pretty tiresome. Most mobs in DS2 aggro all at once and so not having the option to pick them off one at a time or singling them out severely limits the possibilities of dealing with them in a way that isnt by brute force. The soldier type enemies in the hallway before velstadt come to mind in a bug way. They even have an ambush to them (that's pretty easy to subvert once you figure it out). They just arent fun to fight and they are a bitch to ignore once you are trying to just fight the boss. Same with the dragon knights before ancient dragon and the varangian warriors before flexile and so on and so forth. Yes, ambushes can be mitigated by the player, but the combat mechanics themselves arent directly tied to them. They dont need to exist in the quantity that they do in DS2. I dont mind them being a thing, but they are just everywhere in that game.

Well, for starters the backstab hitboxes fail to update in time like mostly everything logic related in this game. That and backstabbing/parrying isn't fun at all. Maybe I don't want to outpoise shit like a brainlet and abuse how heavily DaS2 favors STR over anything DEX that's not a thrusting weapon. Maybe I want my timing and spacing based gameplay from the two titles before it. Maybe I want most if not all weapon types to be viable without metagaming AI. Every single issue harks back to duelqueer pandering.

Hexes got nerfed but there are still good ones like dark fog. Stick to Int build and get the stone that adds INT scaling to you weapons. Then get the lost sinners sword and be op. It has a shit moveset but it will melt anything if you use it right. Attacking with it gives you chip damage like the chaos blade from ds1 but its barely anything if you have lifegems

I didn't say the combat was based around ambushes, but a huge part of the encounter design revolves around carefully approaching and assessing dangerous areas so as not to get hit by a "gotcha" moment, so that statement was very vague and strange to me. To an extent it can feel like there's some diminishing returns but on a pure numbers and direct basis multiple enemies at once do get more interesting just by sheer concept. With one enemy, you don't have as much to be concerned about as it can only use it's attacks the ways it can and most aspects of the area and positioning are muted and rigid. Add another, even the same type, and the situation changes quite drastically, you have both independent foes and having to keep track of their individual movements, weighing up whether that position is still worth it. You have the same attacks but in far more different combinations/locations which constantly changes the strategy for timing or punishing compared to just one. After killing one you still get a solo fight and can even use that as a strategic goal. This also changes the value of so many different types of weapons and spells based on how the fight plays out. Now add two unique enemies and it gets way more dynamic even compared to one unique enemy. The combat mechanics of the series are very much designed with the encounter design in mind though, it's why they're so straightforward even.