Are elemental vulnerabilities and resistances a fun gameplay mechanic or pointless busywork?

How does ice beat wind exactly?

If you blow on something it gets cold, so wind is weak against ice that already is cold.

its a just more elaboate version of rock paper scissors.

>game has elemental weapons and armor
>cant change weapons and armor in combat

what's the point of this shit unless you enter an obvious elemental area (volcano, tundra, etc) where you know before hand you're probably going to be fighting ice or fire monsters

unless you're reading a guide for bosses you'll have to fight the boss, scan him to see his weakness, then reset the game to equip yourselves appropriately

its just dumb

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>Water beats fire
>Fire beats water
When will the "Ice isn't water" meme stop?

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>a fun gameplay mechanic or pointless busywork?
These are not exclusive.
The more busywork a game has in it, the higher a barrier of entry it has towards lazy entitled scrubs who "only play for fun", because they'll half-ass the busywork and end up getting rekt due to lack of preparation.
Once you've shooed away the lazy entitled scrubs, your game is automatically more fun, because even if the game itself hasn't changed, you know merely from playing and enjoying the game that you're better than they are, and being better than shitters is very enjoyable.

That said, unfortunately, elemental rock paper scissors is a fun gameplay mechanic. If it were pointless busywork, then Pokemon might actually be good.

The divinity CRPG's did some pretty fun stuff with elements. Water and fire makes steam, steam and lightning makes electric clouds. Lightning and water makes electric water. Fire and oil makes more fire and way more.
Ice and water are both in the hydrology tree which is cool but for some reason poison is in geomancy.

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had an interesting take on elements.

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Ice stops being Ice when it comes into contact with Fire. Thus losing its Ice element.

The phases of water are not secured by elemental mastery, or a fandom wiki, or the creativity of their uses, or by basic thermodynamics.]
The phases of water are secured by the fact that, should someone try to separate them, you will FIGHT BACK. With ICICLES.

You can't be serious. Why do you find enjoyment in games because others don't? Why do you care so much what others like or don't like?

But that it turns into water. Just like in real life.

>Why do you find enjoyment in games because others don't?
Because I enjoy when those others are upset and don't enjoy when those others have fun.
>Why do you care so much what others like or don't like?
Honestly I'm not too concerned about this, except as a means to the end of ensuring the bads get mad and the faulty stay salty.

Because every time something tries to make everyone happy it has close to zero substance.

Ground can also beat fire but having three elements beat one doesn’t make for fun gameplay.

getting tired of elemental shit in videogames.

almost in every game.

So lets say that there is a game that you find boring. You look up on the internet what other people think about it and discover that they think it's boring aswell. Do you suddenly just enjoy it because that somehow makes you superior?

You bet your goddamn ass I do!

>>Water beats fire
>>Fire beats water
>water beats fire so long as it is an A-class fire or if the volume of water is enough to keep the fire completely submerged with evaporation form boiling taken into account
>Fire beats water so long as that fire is not an A-class fire and the volume of water is not enough to keep the fire completely submerged with evaporation form boiling taken into account

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Nig everything can beat everything. I just think it's weird that ice and water are two seperate things.

I mean, boredom isn't necessarily the best way to put it, but if the game punishes people who don't put in the time, then fuck yeah putting in the time gets more enjoyable.

>Light
>Darkness
Major yikeroonies @ any game with this

Ice should be with Water
Lightning should be with Air

Special snowflake faggot. You're worse than the people they hate, at least they don't base their opinions on those of others.

Are you kidding? They’re great!

>Lightning should be with Air
Nigger that's false

Mind you, that extra enjoyment goes away the instant people stop being salty about the game. If people aren't butthurt that you're enjoying a game that they aren't, and instead stop caring, then you can't get any extra enjoyment out of their butthurt.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to say things like this. But a lot of people also get really fuckin mad when you tell them to make very basic and simple changes to their playstyle that will make them a lot more effective, so whatev.

TIS' WEAK TO FIRE!

I'm already on the hydra's back you wankstain.

I like vulnerabilities and resistances, but RPS-style "counter" system to me seems inelegant, simplistic and dull. In my opinion balance is much more interesting if each entity (class, unit, magical school, spell, whatever) has more complex interactions than countering exactly one thing and being countered by exactly one another. That too can still be a thing of course, but you could also have golems that are resistant to all elements (but are balanced by other factors, like cost, mobility, offensive capabilities, vulnerability to anti-construct spells, you name it), "ice shards" spell from water school that deal physical damage (in addition to spells like "freeze" that do deal elemental frost damage), or cross-path combos, etc. Divinity RPGs and Dominions for example are pretty compelling in this regard.

Point of the matter is that your opinion is based on that of others instead of what you actually enjoy. That is fucking gay and makes you a weak person.

Remove ice and that would be perfect because wind amplifies fire but fire just turns ice into water (which it's weak to)

It's just heated air, same as fire

no

>Game lets you specialize in a particular elemental magic
>You can encounter enemies that are immune to that element
Yeah, fun as fuck.

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I think they add to RPGs, but only in small quantities. Etrian Odyssey does it right: three physical elements (cut, stab, bash) and three magical elements (fire, volt, ice). Nearly every enemy is weak to something, but resistances are more rare and immunities only exist on a few very specific enemies. It means hitting elemental weaknesses is a bonus rather than mandatory, and having only 3 of each type means you can blindly equip a resistance accessory and it's probably going to be helpful.

Games like Grim Dawn where there are 16 different elements or someshit are just overdoing it.

Best side effects for elements?

fire - damage over time, leaves hazardous terrain that can spread and interact with other elements
ice - immobilize or slow, leaves hazardous terrain that causes creatures to slip, can turn to water
wind - push and interrupt, can create clouds that interact with other elements
earth - knockdown, can manipulate terrain and prevent movement through spaces
thunder - stun and chains to other targets
water - drenches targets, lowers resistance and can interact with other elements

>Game has some neutral "not as strong as the actual elements but nothing can resist it" element.
>Endgame enemies start resisting it anyways.

Fuck you.

Fire is a chemical reaction. Lightning (electricity) is the movement of electrons across a medium.

>game lets you give enemies weaknesses

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I've seen games, tile-based, where each unit has a very specific pattern that they can attack.
One guy might hit everything 3 tiles away from him (and ONLY 3 tiles away), another might strike things in two lines, roughly 60 degrees apart.
You get some interesting tactical matchups out of it, because some unit groups, when lining up to all focus fire on one guy, end up forming a ring or a line or a clump or a sparse spread, and so they get owned hard by other units which hit a ring or a line or a clump or a sparse spread.

>game doesn't let me face roll everything with a cookie cutter build
Aw baby couldn't make it? Gonna cry? Piss your pants maybe? Maybe shit and cum?

Explosive in Borderlands?

Being social is a weakness and so is being antisocial, but it's still a wonderful motivator for getting good.
Also I'm not gay but you are.

Too many games use elemental strength as a tic-tac-toe mechanic. Pointless garbage.

Don't talk to me faggot. Conversation with you is meaningless because you don't actually believe what you say.

Though I suppose your argument is that someone who doesn't -need- justice, sadism or schadenfreude has less weaknesses to exploit, and if you have less weaknesses to exploit, you have gotten more gud than someone who still has weaknesses.
Good point. Hadn't thought of it like that. I'll see if I can start enjoying things even if nobody is mad.

>You're either completely worthless or you're overpowered as shit, nothing in between
False dilemma, brainlet.

>y-y-you don't really mean that!
Pathetic.
Delusion is the tactic of people who can't cope with reality.

>Ice is its own element
Why do icefags always get special treatment? When is it our time steambros?

Steam is super-effective against School-Setting VNs and Conspiracy materials, but has a weakness against things that are Epic and 88% cuts!

You don't believe that, you said it yourself. You'll change your opinion to oppose others because you want to be special. You're even worse than a child.

>fire can't beat earth even though sufficiently hot enough fires can melt rock
>earth can't beat fire even though earth can be used to smother certain fires
>wind can't beat fire even though some fires can be blown out
>fire can't beat wind even though oxygen is needed for a flame
>wind beats earth even though wind cannot blow through earth
>water can't beat ice even though a large enough volume of sufficiently hot water can melt ice
>ice can't beat water even though a large enough volume of ice will freeze water
>Darkness can beat light "hang on guys its a bit to bright in here, let me get my flashdark"
>thunder, i.e. sound waves, beats water even though its icon is clearly lightning
>fire, and what possibly might have been intended to be lightning, can't beat darkness even though they are both sources of light
>thunder [sic] is a completely different thing than wind even though wind is required for thunder to exist

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As long as the visual effects are cool I'm fine with it. On that note, what games have the best magic effects? Big bonus if you can feel the difference in oomph between similar spells of different tiers.

Wait, you think I give a shit about being special?
Fuck that. Unique doesn't mean good. Better to stick to what works and do it properly.
I also don't want to oppose -everyone-. Just the people who deliberately keep making the same mistake when a small change in what they're doing will make them better.

You might be projecting a bit tho. Do you care about being special? Are YOU special? Because I sure as fuck don't and aren't.

>Dampen in EO2

Get fucked, dragon conditionals!

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Faggots like you are the reason Press X to Awesome exists. You'd rather be shown a cutscene of someone being +~+EPIC+~+ that takes several seconds of not gameplay to show you just how *=*WIN YEAH*=* your one buttonpress was, than be playing the videogame.
Try Fable: The Journey. It'll be right up your alley.

I have a soft spot for Skyrim magic effects, despite how shit it is in practice.
>first fire ball
>pffosh
>second fire ball
>FRRRKRAGGHT
Also the lightning spells, first one is just an arc, second one adds a glow and the third one blurs the screen.

But you're right that I'll change my opinion to go against people, in that circumstance when they are deliberately being bad. ... And you're right, that's exploitable as fuck and I'm surprised nobody's done it yet. I'd better fix that problem.

As much as games that detract from their gameplay for eyecandy are despicable, it's extremely idiotic to pretend that good presentation always comes at the cost of the game itself, and that it can't add a lot to an otherwise great game.

You need to play Dragon's Dogma if you think you can't have crazy spells effects in real time combat.

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ICE = COLD YOU IDIOTS
C
E
=
C
O
L
D

>meteors and laser beams are the same element
>gravity and hellgates are the same element
>plants and wind are the same element
>earth and lightning are the same element

Chrono Cross was weird.

Oh.
My mistake. Try Dragon's Dogma, it might be something you'd enjoy.

here's your elements bro

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Then why aren't Ice, Death, and Playstation 3 the same element? They're all the -lack of- something.

If two guys of the Mirror element both tried to blast each-other
would that be a
MIRROR MATCH-UP?

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 did something interesting with this. All 8 elements in the OP pic are used, but paired off into opposing pairs. So fire and water are super effective against each other, but don't interact with any other elements, fire does nothing to ice, electric does nothing to water.

I'm not sure why it was done that way, honestly. What's the difference between having a cyclical interaction like in the OP pic, and pairs? XC2 has silly stuff like fire resisting water rather than ice. Two opposing elements are both weak and strong against each other simultaneously, but the element fof the damage you take doesn't come into play much, if at all.

Didn't Final fantasy X do this as well? Thunder-water and fire-ice I think.

I usually find them pointless aritifical damage gate at worst, and meh at best.
I just roll my eyes when I encounter it in yet another Japanese RPG, it feels so unimaginitive.
Maybe if elements did cool things like freeze enemies completely allowing them to be shattered easily, or literally melt them, or use lightning to electrocute everyone in a watery area, it would be cool, but they almost never do this.
In BotW it was cool for example, but that is the exception, I don't see this in other games.

Good negative example from recent memory from the top of my head: Xenoblade 2
But acutally almost any JRPG works.

>Water and ice are separate elements

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>the whole element structure is deeply integrated to the overarching plot of the series with each element capable of shitting on reality according to their own domain

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LIGHT AND DARKNESS ARE BULLSHIT ELEMENTS AND SHOULD NEVER BE CONSIDERED!

It ain't even busywork.
>learn different element spells at different levels
>ignore elemental properties and spam only your highest level spell for max damage

>Devil
>Angel
>Null and Void are separate elements

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>enemy has no elemental strength or weakness
>you have 4 different elementel spells at the same level, all doing the same damage only the effect looks different
Wow, thanks every Final Fantasy game ever.

>DOUBLE STAR

it works in the sense that if something is airborne it'll have a hard time trying to keep it that way if it gets too cold

>Fire
>Water
>Air
>Earth
>Lightning

Are the only elements you ever need.

Yes they fucking are you brainlets

null is complete nothingness
void is a dimension

>durr h2o molecules are the same as the concept of fucking cold

>Plenty of FF enemies are weak to Air, Earth, and Water.
>Player availability to these elements in some games is absolute shit or even flat out non-existent in comparison to Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder being everywhere.

This always bugged me.

in rpg terminology, ice is exceedingly low temperature, just like fire is high temperature. both of them arent composed of anything, theyre just extreme ends. anything freezes and burns if theyre cold or hot enough

You should be with a gun to your head you fucking retard

>Legend of Dragoon
>each element has an opposite
>opposites deal more damage to each other, but also take more damage
>same elements deal less damage
>don't interact with other elements
>lightning and non-elemental have no opposite
It was a bit of a silly.

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>elements don't include salt, sulfur and mercury

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>Ice is the concept of Cold in contrast to Fire being Heat
>Steam is ???

They're fun if the payoff for exploiting them is good. I think that's why people like SMT and Persona so much, because getting more turns and knocking enemies on their ass is entertaining.

The same reason why Darkness and your IQ can be elements, they're both the absence of something.

Salts aren't elements. They're compounds.

Golden Sun has pretty much the same system
>Fire and Water are super effective against each other
>Earth and Wind are super effective against each other
>everything resists itself

>enemy has shifting elemental barrier effect that changes vulnerability to a different element every time they're hit
>blast them with a non-elemental spell

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Persona 3 had a boss like this. It'd exploit your weaknesses, and if you put up a magic barrier it'd use the strongest non-elemental spell in the game, that pierces barriers and wipe your party instantly

>bomb is an element
>bomb is the best element

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Changing weapons yes, changing armor no.
You should be able to resheath a weapon and pull out another, it's even realistic as far as switching from a ranged weapon to melee when an enemy closes in, but it should take time so you have to be strategic.
It's silly, however, when you can just pause a game by opening you inventory and change your entire outfit in an instant. You should either only be able to do that outside of combat or it should take a lot longer to do than changing weapons.

>Wet is a status condition

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I want to see a game where the elements are the ones from the periodic table.

What about the concept of (charged) interactions between metals and non-metals?

>Wet reduces damage from Fire
>Dry reduces damage from Thunder

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This

Top fucking game.
Really gets you thinking about your party loadout if you don't overpower yourself by grinding or play on normal.

They're fun when they're concise and functional, that is having a short list of attributes that work on a very specific ruleset, e.g. heat, cold, and electric attributes put in a ruleset where they interact with targets in an intuitive and strict way, like 99% of plant types being universally weak to heat based attacks, or 99% of flying types being weak to electric attacks, of course you can put rare exceptions to that to spice the system up but not make them anything but that.
It becomes busywork when you have too many attributes(e.g. Pokemon or SMT) and/or their application becomes a trial and error endeavour where there's no real ruleset that regulates how those elements work, (e.g. FF/SMT).

reddit

i liked it in shanghai

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All>light>Dark>All

Water>Fire>Earth>Air>Water

Psy>Psy

Energy

DoS had the right idea. Instead retarded x beats y individual spells interact with each other. Throwing a rock at someone covers them in oil, making them vulnerable to fire, but covering them with rocks does the opposite. Each element has it's own identity
>fire is almost all damage
>wind/lightning is damage, and some cc when coupled with water
>water is healing and later freezing people, defence against magic
>earth is lots of cc, defence against physical
>and all of them have their respective buffs

It's okay in like Heroes for example where some creatures have elemental resistances and weaknesses, but it's very reductive and boring when it becomes the core mechanic like in Pokemon.

I almost never see anyone talk about this. It really deserves more credit

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>implying

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If “ice” (read: cold) is an element, heat should be combined with it to create a temperature element focused on adding energy to things and taking it away from other things

Also light and darkness should be combined into one element too
Also “thunder” should be changed to magnetic force and expanded upon to create a “nuclear” element as controlling electricity basically allows you to freely manipulate chemical elements

Chrono Cross actually did it in an interesting way. In most games it's boring bullshit though. Especially if you can fuck yourself later by not picking the right spells/items early on

Those are bonds. Ionic or covalent. Salt is not an element in the periodic table. Salts are compounds comprised of two elements. Typically an alkalie or alkalie earth metal and a halogen in an ionic bond forming a compound molecule referred to as a salt.

>Salt is not an element. Salts are compounds
What if it's both?

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take your pills

Universal forces have every right to be elements

>game has a Semen element

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