So, was there actually a "coin toss"?

Literally this comic, Simon

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It was so sad seeing her get frustrated enough to curse at him, she was so sweet and patient the while time and he must have made her feel sad about not being on the ARK either. And then she literally dies. I want to die too.

...

think harder, read how data is write in HD, Cut and copy its not really Cut and copy, its more like copy and delete.

What i really want to know, like IRL, if the suicide thing was right, if conciousness really work that way.

Then use copy instead of cut

>Find yourself earlier in the game
>durr that will totally never happen again, right?
Simon is retarded.

No it doesn't, it didn't work in the game either. The copies are just unaware of their death.

Hey Catherine

Thanks

There was no coin toss, remember Simon had brain damage and on top of that was one of the prototypes for the scanner so his scan isn't perfect. She tried to explain it to him but he didn't get it. She gave up after that and came up with the coin toss to manipulate Simon.

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This. But it helped me enjoy the story better. Him coming to terms with things felt weird. Like how he's literally a time traveling AI In a robot brain piloting a dead woman. Figured he'd freak out way more but it makes sense with the knowledge that he didn't understand it enough to freak out.

No that's just bad storytelling, the only reason we follow Simon after the transfer is because the narrative requires it.

Realistically how long would the ark even lasted? Assuming no equipment failure it will still probably get sucked back into Earths atmosphere eventually and destroyed on impact.

What an awful situation

Based brainlet.

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god i love this cute autist

say that again

Yes and no.

There's no way to prove the ontology of your intelligence. It is as possible that you end up going along with the transmission, or you stay behind. Theoretically, the act of copying may even "break" your ontology, leaving you with two copies.

The important thing is there will ALWAYS be "a person" stranded on this side. The irony being that she probably has the exact opposite conversation with his copy.

How do you copy data?

You start by reading it. You then transfer it, and write it over in an new location.

You now have two copies of the data.

When you "Move" or "Cut" data, there is a final step. You delete the original data at its original location..

Do you see the problem?

Perhaps there's more to it than you're told in the game. Maybe it's just a step towards a greater plan. It's not like it would matter to the people inside. If they decided to get you out for a purpose, the you inside the Ark would still remain.

Even the people who tried that stunt must have been at least partially aware that it wouldn't work. They must have had a moment where they observed the scan was done, they were not digital and were about to kill themselves.

But perhaps they may have deluded themselves enough to ignore that for the brief time before their deaths. I wondered if Simon failing to question wether the scan onto the Ark would be different from the scan into the suit was bad writing or if he was just blocking out the possibility that his last chance to escape the underwater shithole wouldn't work.

Thought it looked to me like it was flying off away from Earth. If so, most likely it'd meet its end just from an eventual hardware failure, or perhaps software sooner than that. Satellite programmers do their best to simplify the software as much as they can to avoid anything happening that can't be fixed without a human present to ctrl+alt+del the problem. And the Ark sure looked to have some complicated programming.

Isn't this the game where you can get your hand eaten by an anus

So when you go to sleep at night, you apparently die every time, just because your counciousness is restarted. Fucking brainlets, how the fuck copy and delete is a problem for a compuer brain. It can exist in infinite insances, as long as there is a processing power.

God, imagine being in cat's position: having to lead a genuine dipshit by the nose so you can salvage what's left of humanity. Having to play nice despite his absolute dipshittery and having to kid glove him through every transfer, propping up his fragile worldview every single time and listening to his autistic shrieks when it was complete. Every. Single. Time.

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You dream. Sleep is more accurately a hibernation state where the brain does crucial maintenance and filing tasks that are difficult or impossible on fully-active hardware.

In regards to your question: Yes, You could copy as many Simons as you wanted, into infinite instances in infinite locations.

The player perspective Simon remains at the bottom of the sea.

>So when you go to sleep at night, you apparently die every time

That's not an unreasonable thing to believe.
How can you be sure you're not just a one-day-old consciousness that has all the memories and knowledge of the previous ones?

existentialcomics.com/comic/1

>When you "Move" or "Cut" data, there is a final step
You realise you can do this bit by bit instead if copying the whole thing?

sometimes I feel like one of the devs decided to put in the coin toss false analogy while they were writing the game just to see how many retards would latch on to it, I swear to god

Computers also do it bit by bit (literally), just really fucken fast.

>Has had the rules explained to him several times
>The rules that were explained to you are true, and the outcome that you were warned of takes place
>"Catherine you fucking MONSTER FUCK YOU"
Fucking Simon. The fact that Catherine sounded genuinely hurt made me sad.

Because that's how shit works on a hard drive you fucking retard.
Part of the disk is read and the signal sent elsewhere, where it is copied into the structure of another disk before the original is designated for wiping. At no point is anything even ambiguously identifiable as 'soul' or 'consciousness' physically moved from one disk to another.
Tagging on to this. While there is room for doubt about the process of cognition and what part constitutes 'consciousness' in the human mind, the moment you commit that to 1s and 0s on a disk as the sum of all your personality and memory, it's a guarantee whatever makes you identifiably 'you' won't go with it.

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I'm gonna explain this in babby terms
>(YOU) get copied, you copy comes to life with your memories up to that point
>(YOU) watch as the copy wanders about
>(YOU) will never, EVER experience existence from that copy's point of view, only (YOURS)
Is that fucking clear enough

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not every sphincter is an anus

Then at what point the "original" dies? When 51% of neurons are mapped to another physical place? That makes no fucking sense.

look up the ship of theseus

The original dies when it is deleted after the copy is made, imbecile.
Copying is not a magical transfer. Moving does not actuallly MOVE anything. It copies and then deletes. How many times must you be told this?

>How many times must you be told this?
Just tell him it's a coin flip

yes actually, in fact you die in the exact amount of time it takes for one neuron to finish firing, and another to start. You aren't the person you were but a moment ago and to pretend you are is arbitrary. In fact on of the only types of cells that make it to your death bed are your braincells and you don't make more of those after your early twenties.

You are really fucking dumb. I copied one single neuron of a functioning brain to another location and deleted the original neuron. I aparently should die from this.

No there wasn't. One of the two Simons always loses.

Yes. You can.

Does it actually work however? If you cut your brain into ten pieces, and copy, transfer and delete your previous mind, I hope you stop at the first piece.

Since You have 90% of your mind in the original location, and 10% in the new one... If you repeat this, you will likely get to experience ego death before you are entirely deleted.

Your copy will likely only experience the slight oddity of being partially complete for a short period, before he will conclude his clever idea is successful.

You will think nothing: You're dead.

No, she just said that so Simon's monkey brain can think he has a shot of reaching the ark.

>it's a guarantee whatever makes you identifiably 'you' won't go with it.
Would have to be able to say for certain what makes 'you' 'you' before we could really assume that

If you can make a computer brain that PERFECTLY emulates a human one, ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY, then why shouldn't that be host to a real consciousness if loaded with the same electric charges as your human one

This is a genuine philosophical question even without the robot shit. People become mentally impaired from brain injury all the time, but most people wouldn't assume that there's no longer anyone home unless the person was actually an unresponsive potato.

Just a reminder, Simon canonically has brain damage, so if you honestly can't understand how copying a brain scan works then you're literally retarded.

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So when any cell of your body gets old and die and gets replaced by a new one your conciousness actally die. Nice, never new I die 15485956 times per day. Fucking retards.

Your brain cells are biologically replaced and recreated all time. At what point of life do you experience ego death, lmao?

you do understand that the left over information is the only reason you feel like you have a persisting experience right?

After you do this enough times to severely inhibit necessary life and motor functions, I expect you would too. Frankly it wouldn't take many in your case, considering your presently obvious shortage to begin with.
There is a reason you have to terminate any applications before moving their files.

The act of committing something to disk carries the architecture of your mind, but not the in-vivo processes of it. The way data storage and transferral technology works would have to drastically change before this would be even remotely viable.

Thats the fucking point, yes.

No there is not in case of computer brain. Your new neuron is just mapped to the new location when it's not being currently used. That doesnt inhibit anything as it is still there, just with different physical address.

ITT: How does a hard disk works?

this is the funniest SOMA discourse thread I've seen

>implying neural simulation will work on hdd
It can as well be some hardware imlementation with memrisors and FPGA-like matrix.

In place. Your other neurons pick up exactly where they leave off. This process occurs over nearly a decade.

If you want to digitize your mind, it would be as simple as using micromachines to replace each and every neuron in situ, turning your meat brain into an congruent silicon brain.

And then you try to transmit your mind... and you're two brains again.

Ontology is a bitch.

So you are now running a new brain with a single neuron while your current one is now operating with one short.
If you are talking about slowly replacing each of your neurons with an artificial one directly in your own head while preserving all present connections, then sure. That's how your own cells are maintained as they naturally expire. Now do this careful, precise act one hundred billion times and you are done. The actual tech for achieving this is beyond pipe dream in the realms of sci-fi.

shut up nerd

youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc

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Here. The "real" coin flip for those of you who don't get it.

You flip a coin. On heads, you go to paradise, and your copy goes to hell. On tails, you go to hell and your copy goes to paradise.

You flip the coin and are copied.

At this moment You see the coin land heads, and rejoice: You won the coin flip.

At this moment, you see the coin land tails, and you despair, You lost the coin flip.

Because it's not a physical coin: You are trying to track the ontology of your consciousness. The only person on the planet that knows if they transferred or not, is you.

But you can't prove or express it, because your copy is in the exact same boat. Simon's copy would have had the exact same reaction he did: "I lost the coin flip", despite the fact that he is the copy.

Someone loses the coin flip. And because you're copying your intelligence, YOU lose the coin flip.

Now to bake your noodle: The aftercredits shows a Simon on the ARK. Prove that isn't the original, glad to have escaped Pathos-2?

>And then you try to transmit your mind
But I already replaced all neurons, my mind is effectively transmitted.

No, that will be the same single instance of a brain that used neuron data from different physical locations.
>The actual tech for achieving this is beyond pipe dream in the realms of sci-fi.
That's merely a technical limitation.

that Schwarzenegger movie, the 6th day, handled it better. the whole coin toss analogy really ruined the depth that the story was trying to go for.

you guys keep mentioning it is for the MC but I take it more as they are treating the player as an idiot. This fucking Schwarzenegger movie has more respect for its audience.

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But that's also a quantum coin, as every physical matter is still expressed by a quantum wave, so it creates at least two separate universes where coin lands on both sides. Checkmate.

Well it's a scan. A copy. Not an upload. The original is still in his own brain because consciousness is not something that can be removed and transferred in that way.

You transmitted nothing. You replaced one segment of storage in place with another congruent segment.

If you want to move this new cyberbrain, you must do so physically. If you attempt to transmit the data within it, you must have a second cyberbrain built for it, and populate it from the first.

And you're still stuck in the location of the original storage.

To "Transmit" your mind: You have to collect each of these segments, and slow boat them to a new location to reassemble the original hardware. Any other method will result in a copy, which is not you. No amount of self-harm, special pleading or delusion will change this.

Nor will it change the fact that your copy is 100% unaware of the difference. The new brain will think exactly as you do (barring transmission errors), and will take severe offense to your suggestions that he isn't the original, since he remembers sticking his head into the interface in the original location, and removing it in the new location in a new body.

i'm pretending to be retarded to keep the thread alive and maybe argue about life, thank you.

Why is it the same instance? It was removed from the whole much in the same way you could remove pieces of your arm and stitched them together to form a new one every time the old one healed over. You are ripping scraps out of yoursel and then calling the sum of those scraps yourself as well.

There is no reason why you can't have consciousness running on two physical cyberbrains connected with each other. Then you just move part by part while it's still running. Same instance of mind, just being remapped to another physical space. It's like virtualization, actual physical machine can do whatever the fuck it wants with physical storage, while virutalized system can't even know that something is being changed.

No, it is a matter of fiction. Dual consciousness doesn't make a difference.

Yes, the coin toss is whether it was memories/past actions or if it was the event happening right at this moment, You "win" the toss, you remember pressing the button and waking up. You fail the toss and you're the copy left behind.

Your made up fictional example also implies a made up fictional method of perfect transfer of consciousness, and is therefore worthless in debate. Unless you are still running by known magnetic disk method where if you you 'just move part by part' the original is lost. Or if you are attempting to argue perfectly synchronized neural replacement, then you are arguing for a technology so incomprehensibly complex it is worthless as a concept but for wistful conjecture.

At some point, you have to realize that any "2 brain" solution does not work.

Your suggestion is a networked brain, which is more accurately a duplex of the original brain. When you're all said and done, You've made two brains or one gestalt. If you keep the brains separate and mirrored, you still have two brains in separate locations with separate ontologies, and when you split them, you still don't end up on the other side. If you instead make a gestalt, you now perform a virtual Hemispherectomy, with all the associated complications of halving your brain... Which best case scenario... leads to no symptoms, two congruent minds... AND YOU ARE STILL STUCK IN THE ORIGINAL BRAIN.

You can't leap the fence. You copy every part of you, throw it over and have someone put it together, but you still are on this side of the fence, no matter if it's a 3 foot patch cable, a hundred parsecs of space, or a mirror universe.

If you want to go ANYWHERE, you have to take your original mind as baggage. You can make it compact, you can make it portable, but the moment you copy it, you are not going along for the ride with the copy.

yes but (You) are always the loser

Both sides of the coin are visible when it is tossed, depending on perspective.
Imagine a rigged coin, that will always show heads up, and you were to flip it on to a glass coffee table.
A man standing over the table, by virtue of his position always see heads, and that position is the newly copied mind. The man trapped under the table is the old mind left behind who will only can only see tails.
Because this is a shitty metaphor and I am sleep-deprived, it's cursed coin that while rigged, will only flip for you if you do it while lying under a coffee table.

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That's not how it works. You made up a physical limitation that has nothing to do with the actual question of the possibility of a seamless transfer of consciousness. There is no reason why consciousness cannot be transferred in a non retarded way without stupid "copy everything than kill the original" method other than a technical limitation in this sci fi setting.

Great. You can safely move your mind using actual magic too, but that isn't relevant to an argument where our only basis is the known workings of neurons and magnetic hard drives.

Man real life would be so much better if it were Star Trek, where consciousness exists as a vaguely defined "neural energy" that can be thrown around space without killing you

gameplay/exploration in this game was trash and the protag was a fucking insufferabl moron

Ah yes, the shooter approach

Except that your consciousness doesn't care what hardware it has to run on. You can make a virtualized brain that runs on a thousands of micro-servers, but it will think that is works as one normal brain inside of the mapped virtualized space. This way you can replace hardware as much as you like.

What? It's not an impossible limitation. You can do it with magnetic drives too, for fucks sake.

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>You can do it with magnetic drives too, for fucks sake.
Entire line of reasoning safely discarded. See the earlier part of this thread, kill yourself and then have a nice day.

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You can do the same fucking thing with magnetic drives, you fucking retard. Magnetic drives is just a way of fucking storage it changes literally nothing when you replace them with any other storage device. All the copying stuff without removing the original will still apply.

Alright. Drop all pretense of science or magic.

You are in the red box. You want to be in the blue box. There is an impenetrable space time barrier between the two. You may use any method to enter the blue box that does not break the inviolable nature of the barrier between: You cannot intersect with the barrier at any location or any time.

Type 1 Methods that put your original self into the blue box include matter teleportation, fucking miracles, and space folding.

Type 2 Methods that put a copy of you in the blue box include data transmission, exact reconstruction, copying exact conditions of formation, duplication and movement, ETC. There's a lot of ways to make a second you that can easily cross the barrier.

Type 2 Methods will never put your original body into the blue box. Your "spark" is connected to the current electro-chemical (or just electrical if we digitize you) process you are a couple hundred times a second.

Yes. You can. You can replace the hardware as often as you like, you can distribute yourself across the entire planet in separate servers.

But the only way you can put your original self on another planet is by moving one or all of your servers to that other planet. If you copy yourself, a new version of you is inhabiting these new servers.

I'll give you the simplest way to solve the problem: Devise a strategy to move your mind from one place to another without ever using a secondary location for the data within. This is the only method to assure your ontology is preserved.

The moment you say "Copy"; you have broken ontology. You.2 is not you, You.RAID0 is you, but when you split the drives, You.RAID0 no longer exists, and the best you can hope is that you wake up as one of the brain damaged halves (At this point, you can't even be sure if you're the original, or if he still exists.) You.RAID1 is You.1 and You.2... When you split the drives, guess where you still are?

You can never escape being You.1.

user... what do you think is happening when you move data? you write a new copy and erase the original

Another brainlet.

>no longer exists, and the best you can hope is that you wake up as one of the brain damaged halves
Read the thread. Even fucking brain cells do it all the time, yet you somehow consider yourself the same person that you was yesterday with your new "hardware".
And computer data is not a box, so that example means nothing. Consciousness is just a process. Just because it needs an access to data storage doesn't mean you can't hot swap that storage however you like, as long as it doesn't interrupt the process.

user YOU COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON DONT YOU FUCKING SEE YOU IDIOT
GUESS I HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT TO A BRAINLET LIKE YOU
YOU SEE YOU FUCKING RETARD WHEN YOU MOVE DATA YOURE JUST COPYING IT AND DELETING THE ORIGINAL YOU PEABRAINED BUFFOON

Between an emulated consciousness and a real person, the chances of being one of either is 50%. Obviously real Simon lost that chance the moment he was born.

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>this thread again
Sometimes I wonder how you people go about your days, unable to come up with a single original thought.

Nothing new under the sun, faggot

Brain cells do not transmit information as data. They are literally reconstructing the storage in place. This is identical to replacing a damaged drive in a RAID array: The redundancies of the brain prevent the process from being significantly altered.

Let's make these into computer chips: You've digitized your brain, and regularly replace memory chips whenever they wear out.

Now instead of letting them wear out, we'll now pull these chips from your head while they still function after they've gotten up to speed. We do this until we have a whole new brain, exactly identical to you (We'll ignore the fact that we have to do this instantly to avoid drift).

You boot up the new brain. You don't suddenly start wondering why you're in a jar. You.2 is wondering about the jar.

You can move the process physically on its current hardware, or you can copy the process to new hardware. If you replace ever portion of your hardware piecewise, the process remains on the "new" hardware as it fills in through redundancies and brings the components up to speed.

This ironically means that you can make a copy of your brain using your old brain... But booting up your refurbished old brain is still You.2 because you have to start a new process. If you do this while systems are still running, you might end up in the "old" brain.

This still doesn't mean anything for transportation. You still need to move your "Hot swapped" brain physically.

Let me refine the process: You are allowed to move data, but not physical components across the barrier.

Move your process across from the red box to the blue one without copying any portion of the process.

It's not possible. To transmit data, you must scan, emulate or duplicate it. If you make a second copy of your mind in the red box, it still cannot leave the box, be it made of old parts, new components flashed with your data, ETC.

You cannot even move a local copy of your mind without copying it

Sounds like that game Forsen was playing
I don't remember the bitch having more than a voice, where did the image come from?

Okay, so this is all vanity then. Greek philosophers already did this shit and they ended up fucking eachother in the ass.

I don't. We're literally talking about determinism and ontology in here.

We can only ever have had this conversation; If we have free will, it only means that we chose to have this conversation that would always occur.

whats the point of a satellite with AI simulating humans flying towards nothingness?

It would have made more sense if it was something way more sophisticated with the ability to replicate humanoids using the AI personalities.

It's all they've got.

It's a last ditch effort at giving the last remaining work of humanity a chance to do literally anything.

Which is ironic of course, if you killed the WAU; since between the Ark and the WAU; only one of these things will ever have the opportunity to be something more than a city in a bottle.

>What I don't get is why, once he's already AI data on a robot
He isn't. You can't "transfer" consciousness, best you can do is copy it.
People who talk about "uploading their minds" don't realize it will be like this

In the game ITSELF there is part that shows people were killing themselves the moment they upload their minds because they believe the uploaded mind will be their "real" selves

I like how every response to this post says basically the same thing, but everyone wanted to feel smart by stating the obvious I guess.

This site is mostly populated by kids and young adults with children's minds.

The question you're asking doesn't even have to do with the copy at this point. You might as well ask, "if I annihilated myself one molecule at a time, when would I cease to exist?" The answer is open to interpretation of what constitutes "you", look up the Ship of Theseus and the Sorites Paradox.

>They are literally reconstructing the storage in place
But that's wrong. You neural network is being completely reconstructed and reconfigured in a constant process. "You" do not exist, your brain and a consciousness as a function of it, is an uninterruptible process. So you can't just capture the moment in time and say that it's "you" because the next second some cells will already die off, and neural synapses will reconnect differently.
>Move your process across from the red box to the blue one without copying any portion of the process.
But you can. There is nothing stopping it from working on both brains during transfer. And then you disconnect your old brain when all required parts of memory are mapped to the new brain. Sure you can leave your old brain too, but it won't be a copying either, it would be a mitosis without an original or copy.

Which is great.

Except, you still aren't in the blue box, and you never will be in any circumstances that do not involve physically moving the structure you are currently inhabiting into the blue box.

You're one of those people who everyone rolls their eyes at because you try to act like you're smart, even though it's clear you aren't

>retards literally cant comprehend coin toss metaphor thinking Catherine lied
Being unable to see from different perspectives is a sign of autism and low intelligence. Although Im not surprised at all

No, I'm one of those people who doesn't talk to people.

Here's your validation (you). You're insightful and brilliant. Go save the world champ.

>champ
Not him but c'mon really? I'm all for ambitions, but the next time someone comes to you with something like that post hit em' with the ol'
>Why dont you go, color?
You're still a pleb, but fake it till you make it. You're welcome.

The very idea that someone else has the correct rebuttal is the same reason people don't take you seriously.

this

You could've just said thank you, its fine.