Vidya isn't a legit artfor-

Yes, but Bloodborne isn't :)
Nice deflection cope attempt though.

Cope.

who gives a shit about bloodborne the topic was game of the decade you mouthbreather

EVERYTHING IN SEKIRO LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING OUT A CANVAS

>topic was game of the decade
Yes, Bloodborne.
Sad you chose to force yourself to pretend it doesn't exist instead of paying the ~200€ or so to experience the magnum opus of modern gaming.

Bloodborne is the most focus tested FromSoft game. It’s bland and uninspired shit made to sell the PS4 to the baka gaijin

gameplay can be art too
i.4cdn.org/gif/1554438008615.webm

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>slap French word on something
>"It's art now"

~ Fin

This post is true art.

It isn't.

Gotta agree. Vidya, as a whole, is nowhere near being art yet. Even the most lauded masterpieces are below B-tier. It shouldn't be so desperate to be art anyway. Just be a game.

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Cringe

JSRF
Stanley Parable
Half Life 2
Myst

Are all art.

Riven is art, Myst is a flick.

based

>If the moon is large and in frame, it is art
Brilliant, wouldn't expect anything less from Soulsfags

>black and white means its art

This is what happens when you consiously choose to stand aginst the Zeitgeist.
Instead of embracing the greatest artistic achievement of the modern era you slip deeper into your bitter shell, all out of some misguided loyalty to your hardware platform.
And by doing so you erase all hope you ever had of reaching closer to enlightement and squander any chance of achieving Insight.
You truly become Hématogènesans.

Daily reminder that Psychonauts did it first and better.

Cope.

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seething pctard

cope

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He’s one of yours, BBfags.

cope

WOW ITS BLACK AND WHITE SUCH ARTISTIC!
DA VINCI HIRE THIS MAN

>game of the decade
>nobody remember or give a fuck about it anymore
come on user, i have the game, i love it, but still, people remember the witcher 3, skyrim, etc, but not bloodborne.

Music in this fight is a true art

If you posted a pic of SotC, I would agree.

Cope.

Attached: Game of the decade.png (1684x596, 338K)

>things are not game are the important ones

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delusions

We've had threads on BB for 4 years, user. Just a couple days ago we had threads get past the bump limit.

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Putting a grayscale filter over something doesn't make it art, kid.

If movies are art games are art. But I would also accept only literature music poetry and sculpture/paintings being art.

>Even the most lauded masterpieces are below B-tier.
What do you actually think these "most lauded" titles are?

fpbp

insomnia.ac/commentary/for_artfags_only/
cope harder incels

>A game makes use of basic image composition
>I-ITS ART
Stop that.

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Calling someone who put a grayscale filter over something doesn't make them a kid, boyo

Get your own opinions.

have sex

With minimal shitposting too.

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>Make an absurd claim that people don't remember BB
>Get shown proof that it's undeniably going to be remembered GOTD
Cope.

Just because other people share his opinion doesn't mean it's not his own

Is it that time again? It's only been a couple of years since last time

Jesus, that shit brings up memories.

Legit artform? ... What do you mean, 'Legit'? We've had centuries of artsy fartsy faffing about with ridiculous poppycock that doesn't even become recognized during its artist's lifespan, and we're plagued with elitist bullshit '''''art''''' pieces that require an essay to describe why you should like it, and that's considered art, but when people praise the audio and visual fidelity of a game, SUDDENLY art has this ethereal, critical state that is completely unable to be reached by such a crude method as video gaming.

You know what? Not only is vidya an art form, it's one of the most immersive artforms out there.

>game of the decade

>the only fromsoft game with zero (0) fun weapons

>all player models look like Gumby

lmfao

vidya are the best form of art because they are mixing every other art into one piece, vidya has music, storytelling and visuals like digital painting and sculpting. Literally the best form of art, only you are not mature enough to comprehend

It is what defines a video game, after all. You don't carve words into stone and call it a sculpture.

Ok kid

>gotd
>bb
You shouldn't be drinking this much at your age

>ART
>/ärt/
>noun: art; plural noun: arts; plural noun: the arts
>1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
>2. the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.
Yes, vidya is art because it's a product of someone creativity. you guys can moan about it, but this is a fact.

You are an idiot. Here is a suggestion: don't try to tackle complicated subjects, especially ones you clearly have no education for. Seriously. Why is this so hard? If you don't understand certain subject: DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. One would assume that this shit is comprehensible even to a little fucking child.

DUDE

>the only fromsoft game with zero (0) fun weapons
Yikes.

Attached: 1550263918227.png (1000x560, 636K)

That definition is useless and shit. Did you seriously think you can figure out what art is from a cheap and shitty public dictionary?

What is wrong with you kids?

post one (1) better game this decade fag :D

>modern art is bullshit, therefore vidya is art.
You just proved why they're not.

>wikipedia bad
>info out of my ass good
literal flat earther brainlet tier

The dictionary decides what words mean, not random losers like yourself.

>The dictionary decides what words mean
Wrong.

Oh suuuuure, art is a complicated subject. Art, a profession plagued with money launderers and con artists looking to make a quick buck at a rich idiot's expense. Not my fault you have no mastery over any other field, so you make shit up to pretend you're smart at something.

>cheap and shitty public dictionary
It's Oxford.

>not random losers like yourself
Right

Dictionaries describe how words are used, they do not authoritatively decide what words mean.

For starters: did you somehow confuse Oxford living dictionary with Wikipedia? Or do you actually think that all dictionaries are called "wikipedia"?
Either way, there is a solid bit of irony beyond your words. And again: did you seriously think that a subject of thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of pages of articles and disputes can be simply solved and answered in a public dictionary? or even fucking Wiki?

Again.
HOW. FUCKING. DUMB. ARE YOU PEOPLE?!

Absolutely it does. If a word changes usage enough to be relevant then the dictionary will adapt.
They list the current accepted meaning. When a word changes usage significant they adapt. If you're claiming you know better than them you don't.

>m
They're children's entertainment devices and anyone who says otherwise is a manchild/womanchild

>The dictionary decides what words mean, not random losers like yourself.
you are literally as wrong as it is possible to be
words are defined by use and dictionaries seek to describe words as they are used. they do not create the definition for the word, they just relay the way in which people use them.

defining art in the philosophical sense is a little more tricky than most dictionaries want to delve into and only becomes a point of contention among autists, so the simpler (less pure) definition is used in them

>The dictionary decides what words mean, not random losers like yourself.
Come on now. This is boring. Try a little harder.

music, movies and books are, prove me wrong

What part of entertainment prevents it from being art? Good luck not sounding arbitrary.

Video games are art

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Oxford Living Dictionary, to be specific. Which means my point stands.

Really? I reckon I hit the nail on the head. Just because a random guy has their own special snowflake definition on what 'true art' is, doesn't mean that someone's creative expression isn't art. This elitism that some idiots have to make themselves look cultured only works on like-minded idiots. Then, they use their own delusions to protect themselves when people call them out on picking and choosing what counts as 'art' on a whim.

All of your posts read like an edgy highschooler trying to sound educated online, right down to your frankly baffling misuse of vocabulary that you assume makes you sound more like an intellectual.
You're a silly child, you can't escape from that mould.

Did you never hear the word "orientational" being applied in using broad-topic dictionaries? If you did not, then you might want to fucking shut up because clearly and again, you are talking about subject literally incomprehensible to you.

If a word changes enough to be relevant the dictionary will adapt. The opinions of random dorks on Yea Forums are not relevant. Art is:

"
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation the art of making friends
2a : a branch of learning:
(1) : one of the humanities
(2) arts plural : liberal arts
b archaic : learning, scholarship
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill the art of organ building
4a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects the art of painting landscapes also : works so produced a gallery for modern art
b(1) : fine arts
(2) : one of the fine arts
(3) : one of the graphic arts
5a archaic : a skillful plan
b : the quality or state of being artful (see artful sense 2a)
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
"
According to Merriam Webster and unless you prefer the Oxford definition that's the word of god as far as you're concerned.
Why would I shut up when I'm right, accept the teachings of your better or remain ignorant.

The part where it's made for children
Unfortunately books movies and music can be made for adults and actually increase your knowledge, games are specifically designed for children to waste time.

>Oh suuuuure, art is a complicated subject.
It actually is. Extremely complicated, which is one of the reasons why it's current state is vey unsatisfactory to begin with.
And aside the fact that you are factually wrong about my areas of expertise: even mastery of theory of art would still make me INFINITELY better equipped for this discussion than you are, so... you still are an idiot trying to discuss a subject you are in NO POSITION TO TACKLE.

We've been over this time and time again. Video games are art, but art doesn't imply merit.

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But user, my parents think it's just a dumb waste of time. If we get rid of half the gameplay and replace it with cutscenes that make me cry like a little bitch, then they will take my hobby seriously.

A dictionary does not decide what words mean. It's actually just that simple.
I don't know how you can continue to claim that dictionaries decide what words mean in the same breath you concede the point that dictionaries only describe how words are used.
Are you retarded?

calling conceptual art "elitist" (let's be honest, you're talking about conceptual and abstract art) because you don't understand it is top pleb behavior
the whole point was to break away from conventions established by previous elitists.

dictionaries are eternally playing catch-up and you don't understand the argument
a dictionary _DOES NOT_ define a word. they describe the word's use by what is commonly agreed upon
the function of a dictionary is parallel to the real definition of art, which is that art is whatever people agree to be art within a community. the label is not objective and exists only in the context of person-to-person communication
this is why arguments over what is and is not art are fucking lame and pointless

>games are specifically designed for children to waste time.
Wrong.

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Prescriptivism is fucking retarded and so are you for pushing it.
A dictionary is no more an authority on the English language than an infant born in new jersey is the queen of wales.

If we lived in a meritocracy, you would already have been disposed of.

Right then, professor. Seeing as you are obviously an expert in this subject, you should easily be able to point out where I am factually wrong. While you're at it, you may as well show me how an EXPERT discusses this topic, since all you've done is call people wrong with no evidence, and call art complicated. It may be complicated for YOU, but any artist worth their salt should at least be able to talk about the basics of what art it.

Art doesn’t have to be good to be art, most art is hyper dogshit

gonna take this a step further because it's clear you don't understand
the reason that a dictionary DOES NOT define a word is because meaning exists only between people using a word- these meanings change over time as people change. using a book as an objective basis for definitions removes the core element from language (mutual intelligibility and change over time) and essentially misses the fucking point of language entirely. it turns language into an artificial construct that doesn't reflect the actual use of words. linguistic prescriptivism is self-parody.

beyond based holy shit

Prescriptivism is a good thing. The hicks in the small town I grew up in who seent them guys yesterday are not speaking English worth a damn.
That is what they do yes. But whatever they've currently decided on is the final answer about what a word means. I don't care what 12 people in some art gallery decide art is. Until it's common enough for Oxford to give a shit it's the equivalent of in house rules in a video games and is worthless.

>games are specifically designed for children to waste time

>Unfortunately books movies and music can be made for adults and actually increase your knowledge
>movies and music

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witcher 3 is mediocre stale garbage

It gives structure and is incredibly important. It helps slow the degeneration of language and give us classes. Prescriptivism is a fantastic thing.

Meritocracy is a meme, and there's nothing more pathetic than fantasizing about imaginary hierarchies that you would likely be at the bottom of.

>artform
more like
fartporn LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

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retard

>whatever they've currently decided on is the final answer about what a word means
incorrect again. this is literally remedial linguistics dude.

>degeneration of language
literally not a real thing. your attempts to artificially change what words mean and remove them from their use is pointless. language changes whether you want it to or not. we've known this for over a century now.

hes still right unlike you, idiot

Super Bunnyhop already solved this issue a month ago: youtu.be/-XuHWdSGOIY?t=676

People have been making art since cavemen were painting their own shit on the walls. So "art" is a very very low bar to clear. To me, art is anything created or performed to express a feeling or an idea in a non-literal way. A lot of times, video games express their ideas by borrowing from other mediums, like when the gameplay stops and they become movies with cutscenes. However, there ARE games that communicate ideas through their gameplay, like pic related

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I know language changes. But we can steer that towards good rather than gutterspeak. I really don't care what you're prof told you dude. I saw is correct, I seen or I seent isn't and no amount of whining about language being fluid will change that.

So, conceptual/abstract art was created to tell artists not to be bound by artistic conventions, and yet there are still droves of artists who say that video games could never be art and give no reason other than "games are dumb and can't be art and gamers are kids that don't understand art"?

Seems like they were as terrible at 'breaking away from conventions established by elitists' as they were at actually making nice art.

movies? and music? what a fucking troglodyte you are

>Super Reddithop

>If a word changes enough to be relevant the dictionary will adapt. The opinions of random dorks on Yea Forums are not relevant. Art is:
You literally do not know the difference between prescriptive, descriptive and orientational function of a dictionary. That is to say, you literally don't know shit any highschooler should already know, you are more clueless about meanings and dictionaries than the vast majority of the population, and you call others "random dorks" here?
Really?

You're the randomest dork of them all dude. You strike me as a second year college student. I graduated like 5 years ago.

>Vidya isn't a legit artfor-
>goes on to prove that vidya is the Gesamtkunstwerk of art

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Is this some sort of gay discord posting the same fucking Bloodborne images/threads over and over again now that Sekiro's out in the open?

Or is it just one incredibly dedicated shitposter?

It's pretty fucking embarrassing.

>But we can steer that towards good rather than gutterspeak.
You can bitch and moan all you want, but your outdated ideas of how language changes will never, ever be correct. You are a caveman. The language you speak would be nearly unintelligible one hundred years ago, particularly the idioms you take for granted. Meaning precedes definition and it will always be that way. Quit pissing on about it and find something better to argue about.

>conceptual/abstract art was created to tell artists
No, it was created simply to break from those conventions, not to tell others to do so. Many artists banded together under anti-art / conceptual art because of this development, but the development itself was not engineered to cause a social movement of artists. Fluxus comes to mind.
>there are still droves of artists who say that video games could never be art and give no reason other than "games are dumb and can't be art and gamers are kids that don't understand art"?
You're literally just dumping everybody who makes "art" into one group and challenging the assertion of maybe a handful of them. Not a very intellectually honest argument.

Attached: NOT TO FIFTY.jpg (598x324, 28K)

You can learn from classical music. Not sure about the movie part though.

get some fresh sunlight. you shouldnt actually be in here long enough to recognize anons, thats unhealthy

ITT: 'Artists' giving zero valid reasons as to why vidya cannot count as a creative expression, but talking really angrily and condescendingly to make it sound like they have credibility.

learn what? good melodies? lol

Language does not exist without people to speak it. If everybody spoke like those hicks the language would still be wholly intelligible. Your distaste for modern slang doesn't make you some kind of patrician linguistic aristocrat, it just makes you a stupid faggot too afraid of the steady march of time.

Our language has been "degenerating" for a thousand fucking years. You're spewing gutterspeak RIGHT NOW. If you don't pronounce the k in knight or knee or knew, you're literally contributing to the degeneration of our once great anglic tongue, you witless plebian. You veritable barbarian.
Fuck off, there's no such thing as the degeneration of a language. Words change, a language may evolve or schism, but the only thing that truly kills a language is a lack of people to speak it.
The language isn't degenerating, if what is being said can be understood by those saying it then it categorically isn't degenerating you fucking retard. You're just afraid of change.

They're insecure that Sekiro is From's best game by a mile.

you didn't read the thread lmao
it's pretty much just descriptivists shitting on prescriptivists
everyone agrees vidya is art

BBfags are threatened by Sekino

Nah, there's a reason we don't all speak cockney. People can tell when slang is worth keeping and when it should be abandoned.

Hematogen is the name of the chocolate for kids in Russia which is made from bull's blood. Pretty funny.

music theory is a descriptive mathematical system for understanding the relationships within music and can be used to understand how a piece functions respective to its effect on the listener

> not traquer le homme liberté

CLT is that you

>Hematogen is the name of the chocolate for kids in Russia which is made from bull's blood
That sounds fucking disgusting mate.

Yeah the reason we don't all speak cockney is the fucking Atlantic ocean you complete nigger.
Whether we keep slang in the long-term or not, there's literally no such thing as the degeneration of a language.

>Seeing as you are obviously an expert in this subject, you should easily be able to point out where I am factually wrong.
For starters, you are factually wrong on assuming that my only (or even main) area of expertise is Art. I both study and teach general linguistics and social anthropology, though I mainly focus on the overlaps of the two - philosophy of language and cognition, evolutionary and cognitive perspectives on anthropology, though I have quite a few interests outside of those fields as well.

As for the rest of your issues: again: entering a complicated field and subject with LITERALLY NO BASIC BACKGROUND UNDERSTANDING is going to result in people simply calling you an idiot. Even begin explaining the list of shit you don't know and need to know to even start discussing the subject would take months. The whole problem is from the very begginning the insane arrogance with which you tackle a subject that frankly even most people who devote their lives to have problem wrapping their heads around.

To understand art (with all it's issues and faucets), you have to have at least some grasp on semiotics and theory of communication, social and philosophical understanding of value attribution, and decent knowledge of the history of both theory and praxis of art.
You have none of those and nobody in the WORLD is going to be able to provide you with them during any form of casual conversation, much less one happening here.

Again: WHAT IN THE FUCKING WORLD POSSESSED YOU TO THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?!
You have clearly never openned a SINGLE BOOK, article or any other media tackling issues of meaning or theory of art in your life?

You know that you haven't. So what in the fucking Zeus Butthole makes you think any of your thoughts on the subject have any relevance at all?

Nah, it's healthy and pretty tasty because they're also add a bit of honey and milk.

>Field of flowers
Wow, so fucking original.

You're right, I was exaggerating matters when I said there were droves of them. And sure, I misspoke when I said that abstract art 'told' artists, I meant to suggest that it influences artists. However, I do still have a problem with the assertion that vidya isn't legitimate as an art form because I haven't heard a single convincing argument as to what constitutes as 'legitimate art'.

There are more good videogames than books or films.

We're not in actual disagreement. I posted how I (and every other mature person in the world) define(s) art here >art is whatever people agree to be art within a community. the label is not objective and exists only in the context of person-to-person communication
somebody can probably fluff the definition up to be more formal and nuanced but that's essentially the meat and potatoes of it.

>Hematogen is the name of the chocolate for kids in Russia which is made from bull's blood. Pretty funny.
No joke, that shit sounds STRAIGHT out of Pathologic. Now I fucking understand what the fuck is wrong with IPL.

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>I graduated like 5 years ago.
Your parents asking you to find a job for the first time does not count as "graduation".
Whatever education you have, it sure as fuck has nothing to do with any of the subjects were are discussing here.

Bach made more good scores by himself than there exist good games
Same with Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Handel, Brahms... le list goes on.

Patently wrong.

Nope.

tfw getting my degree in int'l diplomacy / political science but my true passion is literally exactly what you have degrees in + ethnomusicology

Again, all you're doing is throwing around terms to make yourself sound legitimate, with zero actual relevance to what you're talking about. You're apparently a teacher, which makes the fact that you can't explain things clearly without throwing around credentials worrying for whatever students you have. I still haven't heard anything that makes vidya illegitimate as an art form.

Congrats, you successfully baited the pretentious retards floating around in the thread.

>IPL
What is that mate?

Thanks, turns out trolling is a art form all of its own.

What part of "too much shit to explain here" seems unclear to you, you massive faggot? It's absolutely amazing how you assume other people are wrong because they don't desperately pander to you and explain every single thing to you like to a little fucking baby.

Do you see all those people here laughing at you for how insanely poorly you understand basic function of dictionary? Does the fact that you are not educated on the subject AND everyone around you who clearly have more experience telling you you are wrong still not make you wonder that the problem might actually be on your side?

Are you clinically narcissistic?

Most of Bach's work isn't that good, it can be considered as filler.

Icepick Lodge, Russian developer that made Pathologic and some other absolutely fucking insane games.

i'd add that art signifies a value transcending the physical existence of whatever has been deemed art
i.e. value beyond the object's simple pragmatic function as described by the community

not trve btw

It literally is. He has over 1000 compositions and everyone rates only a few of them.

>i'd add that art signifies a value transcending the physical existence of whatever has been deemed art
That is probably the most reasonable and close-to-correct definition of art I've seen around these parts of the world.

Ah, get it. Tension has some god-tier atmosphere and story also

Yep.
But candies for little children made out of bull's blood, that is fucking Pathologic shit.

Hey master, what is the complicated part? Art as a depiction of something? The nature of art? What determines art as "art"? Any piece of art is complicated? Is there an actual true art?

Art as a theorical form is complicated, but can you translate that same complexity of symbols and interpretations when some lib retard draws with menstrual shit in a canvas or a depressed manchild takes random photos, plays with filters and puts FB tier quotes on it? Where do you draw the line?

Usually when people use the defense that a topic is too complicated to explain, it's because they can't think of a rebuttal.

I don't think I'm narcissistic, that'd mean I'd be way too up my own ass to consider anything you say, and just dismiss what you're saying by implying I'm superior to you and that I don't need to explain myself. Kinda like how you can't give me a straight answer, huh?

youre an idiot that knows how to talk nice, good job.

but you'll only fool idiots like yourself

Almost everyone who ever posts in these threads just keeps repeating the same judgmental errors that have already been dealt. Pic related is what the most intellectual video game critic thinks qualifies as video game art (culture.vg). See how drastically different this list is compared to everyone else's? How many posters here would even acknowledge any of these games when trying to build a list of video games that are art? There are essays explaining these choices, all more rigorous and profound than anything ever written in these threads. Anyone who is interested in video games ought to read them, it would re-shape the discussion in these threads significantly, which have been a repetitive waste of time for everyone involved for many years now.

Attached: videogameart.jpg (1109x947, 1022K)

I hope you aren't a teacher. Poor kids.

>culture.vg
>Baldur's Gate
>Wing Commander
>Sim City

Based. Gotta read some of it

Sekiro > DaS > DeS > BB

>Hey master, what is the complicated part?
All of them. Actually a functional definition of art is remarkably simple, but to put it into proper use is not. The first thing a lot of people seem to struggle with is the very nature of a "meaning" itself, which them makes understanding "meaning of art" kinda difficult to wrap your head around.

Once you understand how meanings are established (the process of arbitration), you still have a long way to go, because of the extreme (seeming) variability and contradictions that various partial existing theories of art present, as well as the sheer scope and diversity of the phenomena that falls under it. Even if we restrict art to "produce of human skill or labor" (which means we exclude all uses of the word such as "art of war" or "martial art", we are still left with such a MASSIVELY DIVERSE set of items and such a massively diverse and contradictory explanations that it is incredibly dauting to get through it and find some unifying but still relevant and functional common traits.

And even when we do (and it can be done), then you'll realize that the resulting (functional) definition of art immediately relies on multiple notions such as "value", "institution" or "transcendence" - each one just being a gate to a whole new world of complicated issues.
And even when you finally tackle all of that and understand WHAT ART IS (and what function it serves as a concept), you'll still find out that application of that understanding to the pragmatic reality is equally, if not more complex than what you have done so far.

So to answer your question: determining where we draw the line is the hard part, because it requires all the answers before that to be answered, and then a FUCKTON MORE.

>doing one thing makes you better at doing that thing
you should stop talking at this moment

>Usually when people use the defense that a topic is too complicated to explain, it's because they can't think of a rebuttal.
No, it's because they are frustrated with your stupidity. Did you actually think that all subjects in the world are simple and will be immediately obvious to you?
What fucking reality do you live in?

>and just dismiss what you're saying by implying I'm superior to you and that I don't need to explain myself.
Which is precisely what you do. You literally assume that you are RIGHT BY DEFAULT until proven otherwise. What could be EVER more fucking up it's own ass than that?

nonsensical shitpost, try again

If by kids you mean mostly graduate and post graduate students...
Again: what the fuck does make you expect that all subjects will and can be explained to you within the span of one hour through 2k letter posts?

Good response, thanks. I won't take your degrees and knowledge at granted because this is the fucking Yea Forums but I appreciate any constructed answer.

If you want a little more concrete answer: Art is an institution that serves social regulation, mainly by drawing attention to objects or activities that are - through whatever authority-establishing institutions and processes are available - considered to worth unique celebration or glorification. It's the upper-tail end of society-wide value attribution.
That means the line is drawn based on whatever the dominant value hierarchy and bodies of authority place it. In more traditional societies, for an example, the line was usually drawn at the presence of mastery or craft (after all, the word "art" literally used to mean "competence / area of expertise / craft / occupation even in French and older english). However, with more modern societies, the line was moved, and the expectation of technical skill or prowess has been eliminated for the sake of other, often far more abstract or etheric values.
So the lines are drawn by infuencing society-wide values and ideas on one hand, and by simple act of atrbitration on the other. As for modern art in the west, the... MESS we see is a simple product of a society that has ENORMOUS problems with establishing solid and functional values in general: without such value systems in place, the art will mirror the value-chaos and result in what we have to deal with nowdays.