Wtf? Why did nobody tell me that is this is so good...

>Too bad it kills exploration
It doesn't. Every level has four different paths. It encourages you to explore.

>and downplays platforming imo.
Like I said, Sonic should be focusing more on speed. It feels like you're playing a running game, which is what Sonic was going for from the start. Earlier Sonic games punished you for running though with a zoomed in camera and traps every two inches. This game lets you run a lot and gives you warnings when traps are coming.

This game is too short and the special stages are pure hell.

>except the music is kinda shit

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>It doesn't. Every level has four different paths.
So like 3D boost games? I rather have an environment to explore and find secrets, not just branching paths.

>Every team combination buffs one character but completely neuters the moveset of the other character
What were they thinking?

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2d sonic is unplayable on a tiny GBA/DS screen, the series already has a problem with barely giving you enough time to actually react to whats scrolling onto the screen from the right when you have an actual TV, let alone this overly zoomed in bullshit

megaman zero has a similar issue, the GBA just doesn't work for high speed games

I agree. That's likely why I never really enjoyed them as much as the classics because it was on bigger screens with level design that doesn't make you run into enemies on a dime. I think something like the Advance games would be best in 3D, but since they made the boost games so easy, people don't really like them now I guess.

>which is what Sonic was going for from the start
Not really. Sonic was a platformer with an emphasis on pinball-style momentum. Speed goes in tandem with that but the classic Sonic games were never about just running.

Sonic Advance 3 might also be the first game where Sonic's eyelids inexplicably turned blue.

Not sure if it was that title or one before it, but Sonic Advance 2 and everything before it, his eyelids were beige.

The early games focused more on platforming because of hardware limitations and because Sega wanted Sonic to be a Mario clone. But they marketed the game based on speed. The designer/creator of Sonic also said he wanted the games to focus on speed, to differentiate it from Mario and other games. And when the games got popular, he did start focusing more on speed and less on platforming.

Yet people really liked CD and 3K, games that aren't as fast paced or as linear as Sonic 2.

Not including the Advenuture games that had a bigger mix of platforming and speedy movements, meanwhile Heroes, the game that made 3D Sonic go really fast before Boost gameplay happened, was considered worse. So it's not really just speed, it's all three elements that makes Sonic better, so it doesn't alienate the people that liked Sonic 1/CD/2/3K like gameplay styles. iirc, Sonic Advance 1 was rated better than 2.

>terrible and sometimes confusing/trolling level design when characters still play as Advance 2 with that speedy style
>shortcuts being blocked because of team mechanic which it leads going around another path to waste 30 seconds which are paths of BOTTOMLESS PITS or full of spikes and shitty enemy placement
>that Ocean Base being like the 3rd stage of the game when it feels end-game level with a much worse trio than Metropolis
>Ocean Base act 1 is the longest and seems what should have been the 3rd act, act 2 is full of trollish enemy placement(like octopus oiling everything and the fucking oil staying IN MID AIR), the 3rd act is short and hold right to win
>that based Chaos Angel Act1 theme track and level followed by 2 shitty acts full of spikes and bottomless pits
This fucking game is full of terrible decisions

>people
Who? Critics? Sonic fans? Every Sonic game has huge fans and haters. You can't really judge the popularity of all of Sonic based on the handful of people you hear online, especially from the Sonic fanbase which is one of the most toxic in gaming. And you shouldn't listen to critics/reviewers for anything.

Basically, plenty of people like games like Sonic Advance 2 or Rush or the like, but get drowned out by the "muh platforming!!!" people.

>Advenuture games that had a bigger mix of platforming and speedy movements
Not really. Not for Sonic/Shadow levels, anyway. They definitely put more emphasis on cool setpieces and speed.

>marketed
Who cares? I'm telling you what the classic games actually are and how they're designed. Mania reflects more or less the same sensibilities. Sonic does focus on speed relative to Mario, but speed-in-itself was never the core of the game design. Momentum was.

>but speed-in-itself was never the core of the game design. Momentum was.
If momentum was the focus, then the early games failed as well. Since you got punished every 5 seconds by spikes, pits, enemies and whatever else, killing your momentum. The only way you could keep your "momentum" going was if you walked slowly through each level and memorized where all the traps were. People claim this makes the game more "deep" but it's just their nostalgia bias, having played the game so much they memorized where all the roadblocks are. And since they can now run through, they think it's well designed from the start.

It's incredible how shitty the GBA and Genesis soundfonts are. Every GBA game sounds the same, even games like Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission are harmed by it

> And you shouldn't listen to critics/reviewers for anything.
Nah, it's not that simple. Because people today bash on Sonic because it's his modern image now. Long before Sonic 06 even happened, Sonic 3K was always considered one of the best games of all time, next to the likes of Mario, with CD coming second and 2 coming third. Before the Advance 3 happened, people liked both Advance 1 and 2 more than 3, but the common ideal was Advance 1 for the classic feeling gameplay, while 2 for raw speed. They had their likes on quality of the games overall, not that Sonic was the fastest = best. Sonic just being raw speed never made him the best, when the fantasy environments of CD was considered the best thing Sonic ever had by old fans, 3K was the best for being a massive adventure game for its time. There's a lot to like about these games, and none of them was just raw speed. Hell speedrunning wasn't really even a trend until Metroid and Castlevania of all things coined the term.

Yuji Naka never wanted just "faster Mario" he wanted a game that getting faster and faster was a reward for getting better at the game. Sonic 3K proved he realized just making a game so straight forward with that mindset (Sonic 2) didn't make the best of presenting a world for Sonic, that he made Sonic 3K the way it was, to indicate that. He realized SOnic going too fast made his world more insignificant and thus, why Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 was more platform esque but still had many fast pace moments together to make for a better blend of all 3 elements at once.

There's nothing wrong with wanting raw speed from Sonic, but 3D Mario didn't just work because it was 2D Mario platforming in 3D, it added more content not easily doable in 2D. The same works for Sonic, but thanks to his physics gameplay, makes exploration and platforming with fast speed actually work together, whether it's 2D or 3D... well at least in concept for the latter part.

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There are many objective opinions in the Sonic fandom like the Sonic CD USA/JP OST debate, but if you seriously think the OST for Advance 3 is better than Advance 2 you need to get the fuck out of here because you are OBJECTIVELY wrong.

>Since you got punished every 5 seconds by spikes, pits, enemies and whatever else,
How many times are you people going to regurgitate this? There's no spikes in classic Sonic designed to hit you from the side unless you were blindly holding right. Just jump and you'd avoid anything coming from a 30 in screen, roll if it's an enemy. Why do people say things that never happed to me before? Or did I not care about taking damage back then? Like zoomers hate doing now?

I really wish we'd get another 2D Sonic that took Advance 3's partner system and refined it because it has so much potential and feels like the best natural evolution of the 2D formula we've gotten so far.

>If momentum was the focus, then the early games failed as well.
No it didn't.
>Since you got punished every 5 seconds
No you don't.
>The only way you could keep your "momentum" going was if you walked slowly through each level and memorized where all the traps were.
It's called having better reflexes than a geriatric. The 4:3 aspect ratio hardly ever fucked you over when you went fast. The games were better designed than that. Do I need to start pulling out Zone maps to prove how ignorant you are? The ONLY game you might have a point with is Sonic CD. And that's only some Zones.
>People claim this makes the game more "deep" but it's just their nostalgia bias,
No, it's because it's more engaging than simply holding a button to go to top speed automatically. One makes you think about how you approach a level and how you interact with its design, and the other is over-simplified for the sake of pure spectacle. It's pretty transparent that's the case for Modern Sonic games, and Naka (among other Sonic Team members) have admitted that they just want Sonic to be an "action" game now, not a platformer. And really? "Muh nostalgia" as an argument? Pathetic.

Christ, Sonic Team really did a number on you kids in the past twenty years, didn't they? Absolutely zero idea what you're talking about.

trying to fix this problem is what led to sonic rush inventing boostshit. even if that game instead just has you running into bottomless pits instead for the same problem

>How many times are you people going to regurgitate this?
It keeps getting repeated because people like you keep repeating how platforming is more important than speed.

>There's no spikes in classic Sonic designed to hit you from the side unless you were blindly holding right. Just jump and you'd avoid anything coming from a 30 in screen, roll if it's an enemy.
You don't have enough time to avoid them in early Sonic games, because the screen is so zoomed in that you literally have less than half a second to avoid them while running, hence why you are punished for running. And even if you are walking, a lot of enemies or bullets will come at you from off screen, faster than Sonic can jump or dodge (because of how the way the game is, you have a weak jump and can't roll unless you are moving fast).

Again, this leads me to think you are making such claims after having memorized all the paths. Sure, after you know the game, it's easy to avoid stuff.

>The early games focused more on platforming because of hardware limitations and because Sega wanted Sonic to be a Mario clone

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Zoomers get absolutely triggered and devastated as soon as Sonic gets blown back and has all his rings scatter across the screen in a chaotic mess, even though they have poor reflexes and game skill to avoid even the simplest and most basic obstacles seen from a mile away. Even though you can get at least 1 ring back and have basically infinite health unless a platform crushes you for the OHKO, that mental image of having all their shit lost devastates them, so as soon as they get hit by 1 set of spikes, suddenly "Everything is hitting me, wow Sonic gameplay is BAD! RUNNING DOESN'T WORK REEEE SONIC WAS NEVER GOOD" and then they go fuck off back to their Yoshi games or whatever garbage they indulge it.

>trial and error, memorizing is nostalgia biased opinions

But that's how you play videogames, you make mistakes and learn from them. If you cant get better, then something is wrong with you

>Since you got punished every 5 seconds by spikes, pits, enemies and whatever else, killing your momentum
Not if you're good. That's the point. You have to use momentum to clear certain obstacles, but maintaining that momentum is where skill comes into play. That's the point of the tiered paths level design system. Examples of the game sidelining momentum (and speed for that matter) abound in the classic games, but they were nevertheless about momentum and platforming, not just running. Yes, playing flawlessly requires some memorization, but that's true for most games. Knowing the right move to make in any given Sonic level can largely be done by simply digesting its design philosophy, though. When you're going down a hill you should roll, and so on. Cheap moments can happen but it's very rare that you're outright unable to react. You don't have to be a speedrunner to internalize this stuff either. I am not great at any classic Sonic game.
>nostalgia bias
...he says, arguing in favor of a game that's much closer in release date to S&K than to today. Good one. Mania came out less than two years ago, buddy.

This, if anything, the music is above the usual GBA standards.
And don't even get me started on the remixes/remasters floating around.

This is likely why making speed so straight forward instead of skill based might not be the best gameplay for Sonic if you want him to be more than pretty temple run. I do wish it would be easier to make something between Adventure and boost that isn't expensive, pad proned, or made into a straight line like Forces, or all 3.

As long as you admit that "skill" means "trial and error" then that's fine. I'm not even arguing that's a bad thing, since most games do it. But some idiots in this thread are claiming you can avoid them the very first time with skill, which is just a plain lie.

If you're shitting on Mega Drive sound, you're also shitting on most arcade boards and home computers from the era. Go choke on shit.

>enemies go against you

There is that thing called, rolling. It is useful user

I wish the Sonic Advance series would get a sequel/remake thing similar to Mania where they remake the good stages from each game and create some new ones and make it one game. Maybe include the tricks and partner system from 2 and 3.
They were solid games but all of them suffer from some poor level design choices whether it be leaps of faith, pits out of the ass, or dumb enemy placement, and I guess screencrunch but I haven't found that to be much of an issue.

>Like I said, Sonic should be focusing more on speed. It feels like you're playing a running game, which is what Sonic was going for from the start.

Go play Bit.trip you retarded faggot.

>It keeps getting repeated because people like you keep repeating how platforming is more important than speed.
I didn't say that at all, I constantly stated all 3 elements of platforming, exploration and speed flows togetter to make the best of Sonic, which has been proven with 3K being regarded the best of the best, if not one of the best that no one can straight up say, isn't a great game. CD and 2 are second best because of their main focus on raw speed and raw exploration and platforming, which proves all 3 working together is the best compromise.

>You don't have enough time to avoid them in early Sonic game
I do since I did for 20 years without problem. If you're bitching about the first time, stop being a zoomer that hates getting hurt in game like a bitch, and man up, get good, and avoid hazards by being alert to your surroundings.

> because the screen is so zoomed in that you literally have less than half a second to avoid them while running,
So has does anyone in this thread right now like the Advance games with a far tinier screen? If it doesn't bother them, how is it going to harm people with a 30 inch screen in the 90s?

>hence why you are punished for running.
Yeah, because the fastest way to move is actually rolling, which makes you invincible to all but spikes, which if you jumped, you'd also can avoid danger.

> after having memorized all the paths.
...That's how you play games. Do I just "cheat" in TF2 for nowing how to play as the Solider now? Or the Scout? Is being good at a game bad now?

Classic Sonic levels are only trial and error for speedrunning, the game almost never punishes you for rolling recklessly, it just puts up a wall or jump that forces you to slow down. Actual hazards and enemies that can hurt you while you're rolled up (which is the only way to GET so uncontrollably fast) are almost entirely just in slow areas.

Sonic Pocket Adventure was better.

>You don't have enough time to avoid them in early Sonic games, because the screen is so zoomed in that you literally have less than half a second to avoid them while running, hence why you are punished for running. And even if you are walking, a lot of enemies or bullets will come at you from off screen, faster than Sonic can jump or dodge (because of how the way the game is, you have a weak jump and can't roll unless you are moving fast).
You're lying and I know you are because enemies and obstacles are almost NEVER placed in sections that have a lot of flat terrain. Hazards are always introduced in the slower paced platforming sections or areas with ledges you have to jump over, and these sections commonly come at the end of a fast automatic bit, which usually launches the player into the air, where obstacles and enemies are usually visible.

Don't come in here talking shit like I ain't gonna notice.

>the game almost never punishes you for rolling recklessly
Except if you roll too slow and touch an enemy. Or bullets/spikes/pits thathyou run into. Or try to go up a hill too slow. THere's plenty of times you are punished for not rolling correctly. Of course, it's still safer to roll a lot of the time and you learn from mistakes.

Speed sections don't throw you into bullets and spikes, and the only pits they hit you with in speed sections only send you to other paths. Again, Sonic's speed sections are super forgiving and easy, the worst they'll do to you is mess up a speedrun. For casual play, Sonic's way more generous than Mario is.

>You're lying and I know you are because enemies and obstacles are almost NEVER placed in sections that have a lot of flat terrain.
In the very first level of almost all Sonic games, they put the same flying enemies that shoot bullets down at you precisely in the flat part of the zone, reminiscent of Green Hill. This is done intentionally to teach the player how to dodge enemies, without punishing them too hard (because you'll just lose rings for one hit). As the game goes on, there's plenty of other areas with flat terrain that have enemies. But you just learn from your first experience with the flying enemies or fish you hit to expect them. To the point that you start anticipating that enemies will spawn under bridges or on long stretches of flat land, because of the design of the first level.

So I don't know what you're saying. Enemies appear most often on flat areas by design. Any time you're running on a lot of circular paths and then there's an isolated flat area, you should expect there's an enemy waiting there and jump to avoid them.

... Are you clearly talking out of your ass. There is one stage that does that with spikes like horizontal ones, that is Marble Garden, but that's the point of the stage

>Speed sections don't throw you into bullets and spikes
This is bull. It does it all the time. Aqua Zone 1 is one of the most hated stages for Sonic newbies because it has not only the endless water pits, but that one part coming off a loop where a spike is just pointed right at you.

>For casual play, Sonic's way more generous than Mario is.
This is really wrong because Mario games have a larger field of view, slower enemies and let you run unhindered a lot more. There are exceptions like panning stages or stages where you have to jump on enemies to proceed. But ironically, there are far more levels you can just run through in Mario games than Sonic ones. And you can get through them on your first try. Heck, 75% of the level in Mario 1 and 3 are like this.

>Except if you roll too slow and touch an enemy.
Literally how can you end up in this situation unless you were literally trying to roll from a mere 1mph. Any idoit knows balls going faurther the faster it already was moving at. At which, jumping would be the safer option, at which if you suck at that, you're likely the one person that died to the Goomba in SMB1

>Or try to go up a hill too slow.
Again, a situation that shouldn't be a negative if you reset yourself at the flat base of the floor, to either spindash from, or in Mania's case, just dropdash. There's no point in Sonic 1 for example this ever comes up.

>THere's plenty of times you are punished for not rolling correctly.
And this is to teach you how to use them correctly. When you got a good running start, when the terrain is indicated for increasing your speed, and when ever it's usable for exploitation, like in Chemical Plant to skip the underwater section if you take the casual path instead of exploring.

Which none of which is flawed design or should be seen as such, since if that's the case, just being forced to jump by the first hazard in SMB1 makes that game shit now.

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Everything you just said is wrong

>In the very first level of almost all Sonic games, they put the same flying enemies that shoot bullets down at you precisely in the flat part of the zone, reminiscent of Green Hill.
Those bullets are super hard to get hit by, and are way too slow to get anybody going even full running speed. I don't know why he says enemies don't spawn on flat terrain though, they totally do, and going roll fast wrecks them.

Mario has tighter controls, more dangerous enemy behaviors, and lots more tight platforming especially in later levels. It wasn't until Super Mario World that Mario levels were as consistently easy as Sonic's were.

Also you're right about Aqua Zone having the shitty loop spike, it is an exception though and the water pits just throw you to a lower path (even if that path sucks) to slow down your speedrun, not hurt you or kill you.

>Literally how can you end up in this situation unless you were literally trying to roll from a mere 1mph.
You're walking, trying to learn the level, then see a bullet coming for you. You press down to crouch, but since you have a little momentum, Sonic rolls instead. It happens all the time. Except for super experts who memorized everything like you.

>There's no point in Sonic 1 for example this ever comes up.
But there's plenty of times in other games. And Sonic 1 as well, if you don't have the whole game memorized.

>And this is to teach you how to use them correctly.
So...you admit there are times when you are punished for rolling. Which is by design. Then why are you getting so defensive and trying to explain away all the times when it happens? Clearly it does happen. And my point was just to show you it does. I'm not saying the game design is bad because you get hit while rolling. I was just contradicting your claim that "you almost never get punished for rolling." Which was wrong. You do get punished, you learn from it, then move on.

Mario is inherently less forgiving because you aren't allowed to make as many mistakes as you are in Sonic. And that's not even taking into account the fact that Mario is designed around tight platforming that requires precision, where failure is punished by immediate death in later levels, and where the margin for error is much smaller, where enemies are much more of an obstacle that are harder to avoid and have to specifically be hit on the head to kill. You're full of shit

I love all 3 advance games, personally I'd rank them as 2 > 1 > 3. They're all fine, but 2 feels and plays the best, 1 is solid all around, 3 had the co op system but the level design kinda sucked. I'd fucking kill for an advance trillogy + battle remaster/re release.
My biggest gripe with these games are the special stages and chaos emeralds. Fuck those.

They didn't have to do Knuckles like that. The only combo where he doesn't suck is with tails.

Advance 2 is much better

>You're walking, trying to learn the level, then see a bullet coming for you
You sure you weren't just playing a Mario game and didn't notice?

>You're walking, trying to learn the level, then see a bullet coming for you.
Like, from what? The buzz bombers? See above your post, they literally shoot far too slow to even get hit by unless being retarded and jumping right into them. So is it actually the Crabmeats? They literally only attack after 3-5 secs being on screen. You shouldn't even see their attack animation the first time you play the game. So that's all the enimes in the first level of GHZ, EHZ and for Angel Island, you got the monkeys which takes 2 secs before they attack, that all of these should be avoidable unless you actively go slow. I can't be an expert when I can't even speedrun the game like webm related, and hasn't been in these sitations for hte past 20 years of playing these games.

>But there's plenty of times in other games
That has the spindash or dropdash that makes these near possible, and if so, takes 2 secs at max to adjust and keep going again.

>So...you admit there are times when you are punished for rolling.
Yes, but not to the point it kills all momentum or flow that people seem to screech about and claim makes the game bad. Only idiots that think Sonic is Flash thinks Sonic cannot stop in game or else the game is shit. Sonic in cutscenes ffs stops and goes all the time, so why is this bad in game?

>You press down to crouch, but since you have a little momentum, Sonic rolls instead. It happens all the time.
It'll happen maybe a couple times when you're learning the controls, but I don't think that's going to be something even a casual player will happen all that much. Even regular rolling speed on flat terrain from running is pretty good to deal with enemies.

>Mario is inherently less forgiving because you aren't allowed to make as many mistakes as you are in Sonic.
What is a mistake to you? Because in most Mario games, you can jump at the wrong time and not be punished with a pit or off screen enemy. Are all those extra jumps you made a "mistake"?

Now, in the very specific times when you need to make a precise, timed jump, sure. Like in 8-2 of the first Mario game, you will be punished for jumping wrong. But Sonic has the exact same type of thing in its levels. So...what are you even arguing? Both games have specific areas where timing/platforming is crucial. That means Mario isn't less forgiving...

Outside of these specific instances, Mario gives you far more leeway to run and jump without consequence.

>webm related

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>Play Sonic Advance 3 instead, it's one of the most important Sonic game in history.

yikes

Nah, that would be Sonic Adventure DX.

>hold right to win
Looks fun

>What is a mistake to you?
Something that gets you hurt (Mario can only be hurt once, if he's powered up) or kills you (Mario's level design has tons of bottomless pits) whereas Sonic's rings give him tons of chances to be hurt and his pits often just lead to more level. Neither game is really hard outside of the final levels, but between the two Sonic definitely sacrifices some challenge for spectacle.

>Because in most Mario games, you can jump at the wrong time and not be punished with a pit or off screen enemy.
>He hasn't played Lost Levels, Doki Doki 2, SMB3 in the laters levels, SMW in the later levels, or Yoshi's Island (fuck you it's called SMW2 so it's part Mario)
Seems like you're bsing this thread right now. Mario was and never will be just hold right to win, just like Sonic used to be. Now I get he is more controllable for tighter level design compared to Sonic, but unlike Mario Sonic's design is built for exploring more than Mario ever can, with better vertial game then not.

So why is it ok when Advance 2 fans say it's good then? It's speedrunning and the goal is to the right of the level, so how else is speedrunning in Sonic going to be done? And if it's that easy to somehow jump in that webm by holding right, let me see you do it nigger. I'll wait.

>They literally only attack after 3-5 secs being on screen.
They also attack from off screen. Enemies load from outside the screens field of view. And, especially if someone is going slow through the level, that will give them enough time to shoot at you from outside the screens field of view. Yes, a veteran player won't get tripped up by this. But casual/new players will. I saw kids playing at the trial kiosks for Sonic die like this all the time.

Why don't you guys just admit this happens. It doesn't make Sonic a bad game. But you seem to be going out of your way to explain away every situation where a player can get hurt, while also mocking them to "get gud". This is how people develop a negative view of Sonic fans.

>Now, in the very specific times when you need to make a precise, timed jump, sure. Like in 8-2 of the first Mario game, you will be punished for jumping wrong. But Sonic has the exact same type of thing in its levels. So...what are you even arguing? Both games have specific areas where timing/platforming is crucial.
>proceeds to list of specific examples where this happens, while ignoring the Sonic examples

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I can only think of a few enemies that fire from off screen in Sonic, and while they're assholes, half of them are so slow that you'd have to jump right into the projectile to be hit by it. If anything, enemies in Sonic are usually embarrassingly easy sitting ducks. The few that can do this though, like the Mantises in Metropolis, are truly horrendous.

>They also attack from off screen.
Literally cannot, stop bullshitting this thread ffs. 90s hardware could not get games to have enemies off screen still be loaded in for memory purposes, see Mega Man for being notorious with that.

>Enemies load from outside the screens field of view.
Yes but only enough to load in and not just pop in on screen but they never attack until they are visibly on screen. And at that point you shouldn't even be close to getting hit by them, as there is no enemy but one that shots a energy shot horizontal,and that's with the chameleon badniks that only can be spawned in on walls, not on the ground.

Then basically you've come to the same conclusion I did. Both Sonic and Mario have specific levels and areas that do it. You can also cheese Mario games to get far more than 2 hits before dying. Sometimes even worse than coins in Sonic. It's all really a case by case basis. Some levels in Sonic games punish you with few coins and lots of things to avoid, usually the later levels. Some Mario games have a plethora of power ups and others force you to get through with just one. I don't see how Mario is harder...they both do it.

>But Sonic has the exact same type of thing in its levels. Both games have specific areas where timing/platforming is crucial.
Sonic doesn't even come close to having as many bottomless pits as Mario or platforming sections as strict.

Mario gives you far more leeway to run and jump without consequence.
He literally does not. Past the level or two there are constant enemies and obstacles that you have to negotiate and which often can't be easily avoid if at all, and again, your health is so limited that you literally can't make more than 2-3 mistakes before losing a life and that's assume you already have a mushroom/power up when starting a level. Otherwise you get hit ONCE and your die.

>Literally cannot, stop bullshitting this thread ffs. 90s hardware could not get games to have enemies off screen still be loaded in for memory purposes, see Mega Man for being notorious with that.
The Genesis/Master System could, you dumbass. Hell, the Game Boy could. Metroid II on the Game Boy had enemies that could fire from off screen. You need to learn basic programming. Things load from outside the field of view in lots of games, Not all, like Kirby's Adventure wouldn't do it because the games graphics pushed the NES to the limit. But Sonic definitely did.

You are everything wrong with Sonic today.

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>Mario is too hard
>Sonic is so easy you should never get hit
Sonic fans seriously are rose tinted idiots.

I c'ant believe you would say something as wack as the music is bad
Kys

Mario's not too hard, it's just harder, and Sonic's challenge rarely comes from the speed sections. There are definitely places where you'll get hurt, but it won't be a cheap shot from off screen you could never react to unless it's in Metropolis Zone.

>coins in Sonic.
>Some levels in Sonic games punish you with few coins
DELETE THIS

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Egg Rocket Zone is one of the best zone themes in the entire franchise and would jump right up to top spot if it were ever given a proper remaster not bogged down by shitty hardware.

You still don't have any level with horizontal gunfire the same point in time you're learning how to play the game unless you were some kid that had the older brother let you play for the first time on Oil Ocean or something. There's no first level in Sonic at which this happens, unless you were going 1mph, or somehow got hit by the chameleon enemies when they can only be accessed from below their line of sight.

Considering Sonic Team ignored both the fans of the Advanced games and the fans of the old games and made sequels that ruined both, I don't think a random person online who likes Sonic Advance games is the problem. Direct your hate towards Sonic Team.

>This is like Genesis/MD
I disagree. MD sounds crispy and many times pretty good. The "farts noises" are mostly because of bad emulation
youtu.be/MYr7VP_owTM
youtu.be/Po7sx-zpUbA

>There's no first level in Sonic at which this happens, unless you were going 1mph
So...like I said. Walking slowly to learn the level and get hit by bullets coming at you. Which happened to plenty of first time players. Which is, wait for it, the intended design of the game!

>So...like I said. Walking slowly to learn the level and get hit by bullets coming at you.
You are retarded. I never had this happen to me because I never played Sonic going at 1mph. What the fuck's wrong with you and why are you even in this thread if you suck this badly a games?

>Walking slowly
>the intended design of the game!

Attached: 01AEE048-79E3-429F-B78B-45681032EFBF.jpg (921x619, 29K)

He's also the only character who doesn't get trick actions when paired with someone else.

Here we go again.

>admits that players get punished for blindly running
>but them says you should always be running when it fits his argument

No, I'm gonna direct my shit at that faggot whining about Sonic's mechanics and not getting instant gratification. Sonic 1/2 were arcade games that rewarded your knowledge and skill with speed. When you learn the game, you gain skill and with skill, comes speed. You can admit that you're not too good at the game but to try to make Sonic 1 into a bad game just beacuse you're too casual to git gud is unacceptable and lucky for you Sonic Team doesn't know how to make a Sonic game anymore.

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I can do you one better.
youtube.com/watch?v=RRdtr9u9lKE

>Coins

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>2d
um, sorry sweaties. this is the future now

youtube.com/watch?v=t4SxotEjEBE

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Attached: 1504069452961.gif (444x395, 60K)

Those rolling mechanics look awkward.

@457720238 (fag)

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I'm the guy who was "whining" about Sonics mechanics.

>Sonic 1/2 were arcade games that rewarded your knowledge and skill with speed. When you learn the game, you gain skill and with skill, comes speed.
This is literally what I've been arguing this whole time. That Sonic is a trial by error game. You just got defensive and started trying to counter every example I gave.

>but to try to make Sonic 1 into a bad game just beacuse you're too casual to git gud is unacceptable
I never said Sonic is a bad game. Again, you got defensive and thought me providing examples of how new players can have trouble with Sonic = OMG HE'S SAYING SONIC IS SHIT, GET' EM!

The problem this whole time has been you. And what's funny is, despite all this, you confirmed everything I said in all my examples. Yes, there are times when bullets or spikes will stop your momentum, thereby contradicting your claim way above that it never happens. Yes, new players can be punished by rolling, though it leads to the very experience you just mentioned. Yes, Sonic does have places where you need to have precise platforming, which takes trial and error. But apparently, pointing all this out somehow triggers Sonic fans into a defensive mode. Despite me not once saying it makes Sonic bad. In fact, I pointed out it puts Sonic on the same level as Mario.

there are 2 kinds of rolls in this game.
>one is your standard sa1/2 roll while on the floor
>the other one, you charge it up while in the air, so when you reach the floor, you blast forward
kinda like a drop dash in mania

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>Mario was and never will be just hold right to win

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Based Rayposter

Attached: 1530895963878.png (149x129, 52K)

>gets punished for blindly running
>complains that the game punishes you

You can go faster than 1mph without holding right without tying to pay attention like a retard. Why does this site have idiots that think on binary like a robot? 0 = bad, 1 = good.

Just make the rolling into a actual ball and make the camera slightly closer and more like Utopia and it would be perfect.

>Why does this site have idiots that think on binary like a robot? 0 = bad, 1 = good.
Quite ironic when it's coming from the guy who thinks anything but glowing praise of Sonic is someone hating on the game. As if there's only two options.

Tell me how can you get past any of that, namely that part with the charging chuck, without jumping and purely holding the right dpad. I'll wait.

>That Sonic is a trial by error game.
Only if you're going for totally perfect play that's also fast. Simply playing pretty good and fast isn't all that trial and error. The levels are generally pretty easy to read and react to unless you insist on going full speed every moment of the level despite the various red flags the levels throw out to get you to slow down. If you consider having to slow down at all to be a failure state, yes, they're trial and error. But that's the domain of speedrunners, not most Sonic play.

>glowing praise of Sonic is someone hating on the game.
Never said this robot. I said what you have issues with the games are literally non issues. There's far other issues about the 3:4 Sonic games that games like Mania fixes, but getting hit by hazards or not going at top speed by rolling/running, are not

>I'm the guy who was "whining" about Sonics mechanics.
You're a faggot. git gud
>That Sonic is a trial by error game.
That's a good thing. You learn from error and overcome the trials. git gud
>I never said Sonic is a bad game. Again, you got defensive and thought me providing examples of how new players can have trouble with Sonic = OMG HE'S SAYING SONIC IS SHIT, GET' EM!
You're bitching about not being able to go fast and everyone's telling you how to go fast, yet you keep shutting your ears and screaming instead of gitting gud.

git gud

>Paragraph
You can either git gud or git the fuck out.
Your choice.

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If you count that as not just holding right, then there's plenty of levels in Sonic Advance 2 that also aren't "just holding right." Basically any level after Music Plant. I will admit the first three areas you can hold right (though you will probably get hit a lot in Hot Crater without knowing where to slow down or doing air tricks).

Attached: Sonic Adventure Blast shill_2.webm (1106x632, 1.89M)

>Sonic is a trial by error game.
Sonic is a trial and error game the same way Mario or mega man or Castlevania are trial and error games except Sonic is far more forgiving and doesn't punish you nearly as harshly as any of those games. So what is the problem?

You're just making Sonic fans look worse with this kind of post. Verifying all the complaints that guy made above. Literally saying "get gud" and all that.

That still doesn't help the non exploration ala CD or 3K the game lacks or the just inferior screen resolution in general. If that remastered Advance fangame actually gets finished, then maybe I'd call any advance game better than the classics (likely not because the narration would still be worse than 3Ks)

Because they're non arguments that boil down to complaining that the game doesn't play itself.

>Verifying all the complaints that guy made above.
You're not fooling anyone.

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There is no problem. This whole argument started because I said Sonic is trial and error and other people started getting defensive. As if someone saying the game is trial and error means I'm hating on the game, which I never did. We've gone through all this arguing only to come to the conclusion that the game is trial and error, but most games are. So...my original point was right.

I love how people say Sonic is "hold right to win" because of the first zone of each game. But when shown its competitors got even way more linear level design they go full defensive.

I consider Advance 2 to be one of the best Sonic games too but I don't think you quite understand how platforming works relative to Sonic, because Advance 2 doesn't downplay it at all and in fact gives extra options for skilled platforming and increasing the skill ceiling on merging it with speed and momentum without taking it from the slower end of the spectrum and allowing players to weave through the paths. Practically all Sonic games do the warning through stage design thing.

>music is kinda shit
youtube.com/watch?v=18OaAVPECn8

Sonic is at its best when you're using fun and intricate physics to gain speed and explore large, sprawling stages. This is why Sonic 3&K is a masterclass game; it manages to retain fantastic intuitive physics, high speed, and giant well designed stages full of secret paths and collectables. You can rush through it if that's your thing, or you can master the physics and find all sorts of stuff

Sonic is also about aesthetic and fantastic music, which 3&K is arguably the best at as well, ateast in terms of sheer variety

>and Genesis
no

Were you the guy complaining about 'running into enemies you can't react to'?

Not that user, and I've only played Advance 2 once, but I got fed up with it fairly quickly because every stage felt the same. The backgrounds and aesthetics changed but the design never really altered. At least not in the three zones I played through before getting bored.

The sounds fucking awful, yeah. Dont get me wrong, the melody is fine, but that sound font and quality is not doing it any favors

I said that new players would run into enemies without having enough time to react, yes. But I then stated that it was done internally to teach people how to avoid enemies (hence the trial and error). People ignored the second part and started getting defensive that enemies are so easy, you should never get hit by them. Which is entirely unrealistic unless you've memorized the levels.

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>literally just spamming spindash everytime you aren't near a wall
very impressive

Most GBA games had this problem. I got really sick of the music in the GBA Castlevania games, despite loving the games. Kind of funny how the NES sounded better than the GBA, a system that should have had a lot more channels and a better chip.

Classic sonic was better?

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>It feels like you're playing a running game, which is what Sonic was going for from the start
>Hold right good platform bad XD

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As much as I like Final Fantasy Legends and Pokemon music on GBA, for some reason Sonic sounds like dogshit on it. Even Genesis' Twang is losing it's touch for me. Sonic's music is just so damn good that it shouldn't be handicaped by old hardware unlike any other. This is likely why CD and R gets such love for their music.

Sonic Advance 2 has platforming as well. Platforming that rewards you for not killing your momentum. If every area in the game was like Sky Canyon, you guys probably wouldn't be complaining. Since you had to use timed air tricks and jumping to avoid falling to your death. I will admit the first three areas didn't force you to do it much, but the rest of the game had plenty of platforming.

Actually you need to move left in Leaf Forest Act 1 (or maybe 2? I forget) to readjust yourself on a bouncy thing, otherwise you can't progress. I tried the only hold right meme one time a long time ago.

Well I already explained why that's wrong. Hell, here's a video for reference that explains it in depth
m.youtube.com/watch?v=trT5jN6-uck&t=483s
>6:32

>Just found the creator of the motobug rom hack is long dead
That's sad af
sonicretro.org/2013/05/rest-in-peace-polygon-jim/

And I already proved you wrong about your claim that enemies don't spawn in flat terrain. Which you conveniently ignored.

It was pretty nice of the Mania team to honor him by making Heavy Rider's crazy motobug named Jimmy

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You should have kept playing. Leaf Forest and Hot Crater are a little similar (though the latter has a few neat takes on things to bounce on and hang onto) but Music Plant is extremely different to them, on top of being a really unique theme for a zone that's never been in another game to my knowledge.

You mean the one with the playable motobug? Mania actually pay homage to him with the motobug rodeo Hardboiled Heavy boss fight.

>that's never been in another game to my knowledge.
I know rayman's done it, but definitely a rare stage theme

I meant in Sonic specifically but yeah it's not all that common in general. Plus the music is top notch.

You only referenced flying enemies, who aren't in your way, and piranhas. When I say 'flat terrain' I'm referring to the speed sections where all your have to do is hold right. Enemies are almost always placed on slower, platforming areas that inherently force you to slow down, and the game usually telegraphs upcoming hazards through it's level design is you're paying attention, giving you ample time to react to oncoming danger.

>only sonic game to get a 10/10 from IGN

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>modernbabs to shit at the classics need literally hold right to win to enjoy 2D
Lmaooo

>When I say 'flat terrain' I'm referring to the speed sections where all your have to do is hold right.
But I thought those didn't exist in the pre Advanced games.

>Enemies are almost always placed on slower, platforming areas that inherently force you to slow down, and the game usually telegraphs upcoming hazards through it's level design is you're paying attention, giving you ample time to react to oncoming danger.
No, they are quite often placed on flat ledges or right after a loop or something else. Which is predictable. But not where you're saying. Not only did I point this out in my above post, but someone else even agreed with me. Sonic is well known for having enemies on flat areas. The "hold right" areas are tubes or loops or other such areas which don't generally have enemies.

>Pocket Adventure has a higher score than Sonic 2 despite the entire game borrowing from Sonic 2.

>No, they are quite often placed on flat ledges or right after a loop or something else. Which is predictable. But not where you're saying.
I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.
>Not only did I point this out in my above post, but someone else even agreed with me.
He agreed as far as "enemies appearing on areas with flat terrain". Which has become obvious that i didn't properly define what I meant by that. And after I just got done explaining what I meant, you agreed with me.
>The "hold right" areas are tubes or loops or other such areas which don't generally have enemies.

>he listens to IGN

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>I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.
Ditto.

>they are quite often placed right after a loop
Prove it

Sonic Advance 3 is Knuckles' Chaotix with CD-tier level design
fuck off

>Sonic Advance 3 is Knuckles' Chaotix with CD-tier level design with Advance 2's controls
Ftfy

Go play the games again for yourself.

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I couldn't even finish sonic advance 3 because the level design was really, really bad. And before you say "git gud" consider that I 100% Sonic advance 2.

>Sonic Heroes that high
There's plenty else I disagree with too, but what the fuck user-chan?

>Sonic Heroes that high
It should be in C.

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soniccenter.org/maps/?url=maps
This site has maps for every 2D Sonic enemies included. Point to a single level that places an enemy after a loop. Go ahead I'll wait.

Move Sonic Heroes to B.
Move Shadow The Hedgehog to D.
Move Sonic R to C.
Move Sonic the Fighters to C.
Move Sonic Colors to B.
Move Tails Adventure to B.

>Heroes that high
>Shadow and Advance 3 on the same tier as CD 2011
No

i mean it was on the same engine
yet they manage to reuse the old Sonic Advance 1 for THAT ugly 10th anniversary Sonic 1 port

perfect placement for Heroes
/shthg/ need not to apply

Sonic Shuffle wasn't THAT bad, the soundtrack alone gets it out of bottom tier

>filename
Speaking of opinions and zones.
Whats a zone you keep hoping that will get into something like Generations or Mania instead of Green Hill or Chemical Plant for the 10th time.
I loved Starlight Zone as a kid and keep wanting to see it return (mainly to hear a new version of its theme)

Attached: 1550813302275.png (844x797, 431K)

I love riders but let's not fool ourselves.

Azure lake purely for the God tier music

The literal only reason anyone can put Heroes there is because it's the only 3D Sonic game that looks like a classic game in artstyle, namely Sonic 2. Otherwise the gameplay makes me hate that isn't not actually deserving to be in that spot.

Should have just made it SA3 instead

>(mainly to hear a new version of its theme)
youtube.com/watch?v=7qKh-5msybk

>And before you say "git gud" consider that I 100% Sonic advance 2.
You say that like its a hard game.

The chaos emerald are practically impossible. TO get 100%, he would have to have done those.

What secrets?

Only secrets I can think of in classic 2D are the giant rings in S3K. Sonic Advance 2 does it similarly, but it has a larger skill ceiling in achieving those rings. You have to be damn good to get those rings to get the chaos emeralds.

Unlike S3K, where they are almost shown to you and don't take a lot of tricks to find.

Take that from someone who loves S3K. I know that game like the back of my hand. The only thing I miss from the classic 2D games in the Advanced series were the cool bubble power ups.

git gud
t. 100% advance 2 AND 3
but not really, nothing about 100%ing advance 2 or 3 is skill based

Again, you're saying that like its hard when the problem with 2 was that it was unnecessarily tedious with the hunt for the special rings being the worst chore in any sonic game to date.
Everything else is extremely easy.

Oh right that's another reason why I peg the classic over Advance. They are the worse special stages in the entire series, getting to them wise. Basically RPG tier grinding garbage. If Heroes and Lost World 3DS didn't have the worse programmed special stages in the series, I'd just have to put Advance in that slot anyways just because of the forced Chao finding shit.

This makes me sad, and mad. Smad.

Anons mean hidden power ups/lives. Anything that's not in the open but not exactly hard to discover if you just explore for a bit.

>Sonic Advance 2 does it similarly, but it has a larger skill ceiling in achieving those rings.
There's nothing skill based about route memorization

Actually another thing would be the Knuckles exclusive paths. That plus the elemental shields should just be series staples really.

>There's nothing skill based about route memorization

not that user but this entire thread has been about telling people to git gud at classic sonic games by learning the stages and playing them quickly

>Basically RPG tier grinding garbage
That's pretty much just 2 given chao aren't hidden in any particularly hard to reach places and are permanent and 1 just has springs to access them.

Advance 3 had them and that's why I remember they were a thing in the first place, fuck that game's padding shit. 3K or bust, there's no point doing it any other way. Really every game past SA1 forward had more and more bullshit wise just to make something simple I don't get it. So many things Sonic Team kept doing just for padding and now it's not that surprising Sonic kept failing like he did.

Bullshit.
Speed has been the reward for learning routes and timing jumps and spins.

youtube.com/watch?v=y_HjWEHbFCg

Try to get all the secret rings in Sonic Advance 2's first level without a map. It takes some replays and is very rewarding when you have it down.

>Really every game past SA1 forward had more and more bullshit wise just to make something simple I don't get it.
Did you even play 2? It was handled much, much worse than 3.

There's a difference between skill mastery and route memorization. The classics don't require you to memorize the levels to git gud at them, especially since your route through a level can so often vary with each playthrough thanks to the alternate routes.

It's worse in Advance 2. You have to find 7 rings throughout the act and get to the end without dying just to get into one special stage, and you have to do this for each character because they don't share the chaos emeralds between them like in Advance 1 and 3.

>Try to get all the secret rings in Sonic Advance 2's first level without a map. It takes some replays and is very rewarding when you have it down.
i.e requires route memorization, in a game that constantly has points of no return.

God, I fucking hate this argument. You're wrong on every single point. First off, the fact that the early games weren't designed for constant SPEED SPEED SPEED should tell you that no, that's not what Sonic "should" be about, what he's "supposed" to be about. You just suck at the platforming segments and would prefer to hold right to win.

Second, the series DOES focus on speed compared to Mario. Even with all the pits and spike traps in Sonic 2, it's a hell of a lot faster than Mario.

And third, the games did not focus on platforming with pinball-like momentum because of "hardware limitations". That shit is demonstrably false as anyone who has outrun the camera in Sonic 1 and 2 can tell you. Genesis could easily handle Advance 2's speed.

Yes? I was talking about every game after ADVENTURE 1, not Advance 1 though it did carry over to the handhelnd games too after Advance 1, the games just started doing things not as streamline and just jarring coming from how great S3K was. From the enviroments feeling 3D in a 2D game, the narration as you go through the game, everything. Like, can anyone tell me what island/planet the Advance games took place in? In SA1/2, there were humans and urban cities, but in the advance games, none of that felt the same maybe except the first level in Advance 3. Unlike 3 or 2 were I can tell I was on a tropical island being raided by Eggman.

>The classics don't require you to memorize the levels to git gud at them
You "skill" guys keep acting like skill comes from the first time playing the game. It comes from trial and error, which is the same in both classic Sonic and Advance games.

>especially since your route through a level can so often vary with each playthrough thanks to the alternate routes.
Sonic Advance 2 has alternate routes as well. But somehow you'll claim it doesn't count, killing your own argument.

Despite what anyone tells you everything from Sonic Adventure to 2006 (Yes even Shodan the Hedgehog) is pretty decent. The latter mostly just gets shit because it was the first game with the 4kids actors and they fucking sucked.

You're not going to be able to hit a lot of those routes if you don't pull off a well-timed air dash, stretch, spin kick.

>first, the games don't focus on speed!
>second, the games focus on speed

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>I was talking about every game after ADVENTURE 1
Why on earth would you be talking about Adventure 1, a game that didn't have any special stages let alone a requirement for entry, in a thread about the Advance series?

Are you retarded?

Also
>In SA1/2, there were humans and urban cities
That's more of a mark on the adventure series than advance given Advance was in line with previous games in that regard.

Sonic Heroes and Shadow are garbage, I have no idea why people like them so much. They control like ass and are too slippery. Most of the missions in Shadow are completely unfun and you have to replay the game like 10 times just to get the true ending.

Imagine being this retarded.
He's saying the games weren't designed around constant speed like say SAd2 or Rush where you're almost always at top speed but compared to Mario there is more emphasis on speed.

>...compared to Mario
Nice selecting quoting there, bub.

>he

First Sonic game for sonyfags.
Everyone who defends them played it on ps2.

Premydaremy keeps trying to take the wheel to the narrative.

Him bringing up Mario is a bad example, since it was already discussed at length in the argument above. And both sides admitted that both Mario and Sonic have areas of lots of running and some areas with precise platforming, usually the later levels. Meaning neither game is more or less than the other.

>you have to replay the game like 10 times just to get the true ending.
>"IT HAS TOO MUCH CONTENT"
Whine more you little bitch.

Yes, he.
Not everyone is as illiterate as you.

Dude, you're not getting more content by replaying the exact same levels, with exception to the chaotix ones because that's a mission mode.

>You "skill" guys keep acting like skill comes from the first time playing the game. It comes from trial and error, which is the same in both classic Sonic and Advance games.
Like I said, there's a difference between skill mastery and route memorization. You mainly git gud by mastering the mechanics, not by memorizing levels. Hence, there's a difference between getting good at Sonic 2 vs getting good at getting all the special rings in Advance 2. One is more about skill mastery, the other is about memorizing levels.

Replaying Westopolis 10 times is filler, not content.

Still the most retarded webm I've seen.
>why does this game about running on walls has a different physic than the one that doesn't?
It's on the same level as this guy with the "adventure vs boostshit" chart.

I'm bringing up SA1 from a brench mark, pay attention. If SA1 doesn't have speical stages, why would you think I'm still talking about that then? I'm taking pure quality control from S3K going down the drain, with Advance 1 being the last game that felt like it's something like the classics, but still worse than S3K, but something like Sonic 2. Advance 2 and 3 got worse than 1, and then as a whole, it's provlems relate to how the quality control of the 3D game got, like everything wrong with 3D games at that time started carring over to Sonic Advance 2 (Heroes had extreme speed for Sonic, so did Advance 2) and garbage speical stage/progression mcgiffens for no reason (also Advance 2 onward, same with ShTH onward), etc. That's my point, I'm going on a slight tangent but most of the problems I have with the Advance games past the first one feels like the problems of the 3D games at that time like Sonic Team didn't know how to make a fun game without some kind of gimmick/padding unlike the classic games were.

>Genesis
>Soundfonts
>Shitty

First off its FM, its basically vibrato at the high audio frequency range.

Second, it's as good as the arranger makes it.
youtube.com/watch?v=XKvKOx4uIPg

Third it's very versatile and modulates over time unlike soundfonts which are samples.
youtube.com/watch?v=bFwCGgIfJVg

Attached: 1548145970458.png (382x417, 243K)

How is that possible when it's the glitchy version of that game next to the PC version?

Literally and metaphysically who?

>>why does this game about running on walls has a different physic than the one that doesn't?
How does that excuse it not having good physics like it's supposed to?

Speed run of Sonic 2
youtube.com/watch?v=D6yZxuDFGG0

Comparing the first levels of this and SA2, which requires more skill? How much was the route not memorized compared to each other?

As far as I can tell. Both games have route memorization. While SA2 requires more skill to reach certain routes.

>I'm bringing up SA1 from a brench mark, pay attention
Yeah, you can't say "pay attention" while going off on a tangent about an irrelevant game.
>why would you think I'm still talking about that then?
Because you didn't give any kind of indication that you were talking about any other kind of game? On top of that the other two games you mentioned were SA3 and 3k which are both 2d games.

Use some common sense when you post.

Just someone who calls Heroes the GOAT and loves 06, that's it, really.

>implying they go by quality and not brand

Everythime. Someone has to come in a Sonic thread when that webm gets posted going
>WAH Y U HATE THIS GAME I LIKE, IT'S NOT MEANT TO PLAY LIKE A SONIC GAME WAH!11!

It's fucking Sonic playing like bootleg Mario. If I had a fucking orange and it tasted like shit don't tell me to enjoy it because it's its own thing. It's called brand recognition, something Sonic sucked at since SA1.

Attached: gameplay.png (512x644, 95K)

You're not wrong. Point taken.

How is it bad physic exactly? Does rolling down after a jump would help in any way in the platforming of this game?

Using speed runs is a stupid argument because no shit, every speed run is literally route memorization. Secondly, I was taking specifically about getting all the special rings, which IS all route memorization since backtracking is impossible most of time.

>Does rolling down after a jump would help in any way in the platforming of this game?
No it doesn't and that's exactly the problem. A Sonic game should control like a Sonic game.

>It's called brand recognition
You're literally stating right here why it's wrong to consider that every subsequent games should play the same, and you still post the message.
This is true autism right there, I'm impressed.

Advance 1 Game physics are so bad that it is unplayable from how boring it is for me at this point

Literally play advance 3 instead

>since backtracking is impossible most of time.
Not exactly. SA2's simple level design allows for easy backtracking.

>advance 2 is old enough now that it has nostalgia apologists
Fuck's sake everyone back then knew it was fucking garbage, you're not fooling anyone. It's THE Sonic game with the worst case of ramming right into shit you couldn't see coming due to a hilarious combination of the GBA's screen and the focus on speed. You could make a case about it "rewarding" you for learning where everything is but that's just memorization, it's not like the classics where you could perform well on your first try of a level if you just played good and didn't have to hit the brakes to hold your fucking horses because the game wasn't constantly trying to shoot you off at 1000 MPH.

>A Sonic game should control like a Sonic game.
No? In that case Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time shouldn't exist.
Video games would stay at a dead end if stick to a strict formula for every franchise.

Okay, Cool.
I'm talking about the skill to get to those routes that have been memorized. Its an added skill cap VS Sonic 2 where most of the time, you hit enemies and TVs while moving forward.

SA2 has it, but it also has platforms that require a well timed bounce, spinn kick, dash forward.

To reiterate.

SA2 requires an added bit of effort with sonics skill set to reach and maintain the path of routes memorized.

Who sonic battle here?
>mfw this game ties into sonic advance 3

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Not when there are constant points of no return and routes that become inaccessible if you miss a jump.

I'm no pro speed runner, but multiple times in Sonic 1 and 2 on the gens, I was literally hitting enemies in the sky by holding right that got me to the end of the stage super fucking fast.

>You're literally stating right here why it's wrong to consider that every subsequent games should play the same
How? Mario, Mega Man, Rayman, Crash, Spyro, and every other series that actually has good marketing control knows how to make a series work with constant gameplay that make sense for what the series is known for. So it's ok for Mario to have guns in the next mainline game? Or Rayman playing like GTA? People expect some kinda of momentum based physics in Sonic until SEGA when full retard and made the boost gameplay. Hell even Rush still kept the physics even with the boost, but the point is, it's not about the 1991 game being compared to Sonic Lost World. Classic, Advance, Rush and even Adventure all had the series branding element that defined Sonic by the core, movement gameply. Before Unleashed/Rush, Sonic was a momentum platformer that had a higher speed cap than the likes of Mario or any other mascot at the time. Even if you made the game about raw speed, even Advance 2 still had the series physics. Lost World is a fucking Mario romhack and that's all that piece of shit will ever be, soulless and directionless.

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Mario and Zelda are not defined by their physics the way Sonic is. The pinball mechanics are what made Sonic what he is. A Sonic game without the pinball physics is just a poor imitation.

>Dimps
LMAO

Level select is a thing, and there are alternate routes if you don't need the coins.

I mean, classic sonic didn't have level select. You'd have to memorize the levels, damn near the game, to beat it. Either or. Level memorization comes with both the classic and advanced games. It's inevitable. Like all games that don't have random level generators.

How the living fuck does those games not play like their 2D counterpart you fucking nigger? 3D Mario is literally 2D Mario in 3D space with a collect-a-thon gimmick mixed in there for padding. Zelda is LITERALLY the fucking same game just going from over top view to actual 3D space. If anything, Zelda 2 was more different from the first game that OoT was. Fuck off you blooming retard

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>Like I said, there's a difference between skill mastery and route memorization. You mainly git gud by mastering the mechanics, not by memorizing levels.
You're an idiot, because by the time you "master the mechanics" you have already memorized the routes in classic Sonic. It's trial and error for both types of games.

>Mario 64 plays like the other Mario games
lol

>3D Mario is literally 2D Mario in 3D space with a collect-a-thon gimmick mixed in there for padding.
Explain how this is wrong in any way you fucking brainlet retard.

I just wish that the level designs were memorable. I can remember Sonic 1 - 3&K's level structures vividly, but replaying the Advance series, I just go, "Oh, yeah, I guess that's how the level is."

Zelda changes its formula a lot though.

Wait, so your counter to me saying that Sonic's gameplay is speedy compared to Mario's is that Mario has running too?

...What?

How. The literal only time it did was EXPLICITLY to rebrand itself based on the first game but with Skyrim elements, which happened 2 years ago. Tell me how A Link to the Past is anything different from OoT just from an over the top view.

SM64 Mario controls absolutely fucking nothing like he does in any of the other games, especially not up to that point in time, and has a metric shitload of additional moves and techniques. You have a lifebar instead of the powerup health system and several new ways to defeat enemies that didn't exist before. You can try to claim there's a collectathon gimmick but open levels instead of one-way ones is a big difference. Something like 3D Land/World is basically classic Mario gameplay in 3D but SM64 is fucking worlds apart from those titles and anyone with half of a brain could see that.

>Ocean Base act 1 is the longest and seems what should have been the 3rd act, act 2 is full of trollish enemy placement(like octopus oiling everything and the fucking oil staying IN MID AIR), the 3rd act is short and hold right to win
Act 1 is long and tedious to give feeling of being trapped, while Act 3 is fast to give you the escape feeling.
The real sin is Chaos Angel Act 3 having mismatched music and not being Act 2.

Not him but the very nature of it being 3D makes it different from the 2D games. Beyond that, Mario 64 was zoned open areas you could explore in any way you choose. Not linear one direction paths like in 2D Mario games. It also added new collecting methods.

It's honestly really stupid to say what you said. Just as stupid as people saying "Ocarina of Time is just LttP in 3D." It has a few story similarities, but otherwise its about as different as you can get. From Z targeting to how you use items to the ocarina to how enemies fight, everything.

>People expect some kinda of momentum based physics in Sonic until SEGA when full retard and made the boost gameplay.
What the fuck am I reading? The average kid playing Sonic doesn't give a shit about that. Colors and Generations had good critics.
People are expecting Sonic to play like a platformer, without any bullshit like swords or gun, that's it.

They're defined by the way they plays, just like Sonic. Physic is one part of it.
The point is Sonic had always been Sonic since then, and even at the time all games didn't play like Sonic 1 on Genesis, just take the Master System version for example.
Also saying that Mario isn't defined by physic is retarded. There wouldn't be a continuity in the ways every 2D Mario controls since SMB3 if it wasn't the case. And no one complains that a 3D mario doesn't play like a 2D one, even in 2D segments.

>SM64 Mario controls absolutely fucking nothing like he does in any of the other games,
It's literally standard movement in 2D but in 360 movement, it's the fucking same. 3D Mario doesn't move like a tank like Resident evil, he doesn't have movementum like Sonic, he doesn't even have anything that would make him look different from doing the same moves in 2D, like diving forward (SMW with cape feather), wall jumping (added in NSMB) or really anything else. Anything in 3D Mario is essincally for imerision, anything funtional is one to one 2D Mario for a 3D space.

And before you say "muh stars". replace every star with a goalpost from the 2D games and it's 100% the same thing, there's just a thing that keeps count of each one you find (which if you compared it to SMB3/World overworld map, it's the same thing is when the level gets a Mario symbol indacating you cleared the level). It's the same exact shit, same platforming, same jumping, same Mario, just in 3D. That's how all fucking mascot characters made their jump, at least the successful ones. Like, WHO in the fuck wanted a Sonic game after playing Sonic 3K to play like, say, a GoW clone? Or have fucking fishing in it? Who thinks of that when rolling around levels like pic related? Fuck off with your retarded ass.

Just as retarded, read my post too.
>Beyond that, Mario 64 was zoned open areas you could explore in any way you choose.
See Mario World, secret blue doors and keys that take you to different paths / Star Road / Speical Road. You children clearly don't play games if you think this tripe.

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OoT is more story focused and linear. The original game has very little in common with OoT besides the setting and characters.

>What the fuck am I reading? The average kid playing Sonic doesn't give a shit about that.
Then that means you never was a fucknig fan you faggot. Played classic Sonic at 4, for 10 years before even touching SA2, and understand what make Sonic's gameplay click and different from the likes of Mario or other platformers out there. Fuck off underaged retard.

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DIMPS level design is just placing death pits every 3 screen lengths.

Better than Sonic 2 / mania shitter garbage, but not great.

>OoT is more story focused and linear.
> ALttP is not story focused and linear
You can stop posting anytime now.

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If you think levels in SMW are anything similar to Mario 64 just because they let you walk back through them, you're an idiot. You also forgot Mario 3 did the same thing first.

And keys that unlock other areas on the hub is nothing like Mario 64 either.

Advance 3 sucks dick

Sonic Advance 3 was the only game out of the trilogy I can get the Emeralds in. They fucked up in 1 and 2.

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Great, you care. That doesn't mean everyone does.
You don't like X sonic games because you don't like how they play, okay. But you can't use that as an argument as to why a game is shit.

It's honestly my favorite 2D Sonic but I fucking hated the boss fights because it was so goddamn easy to lose your momentum and completely fuck yourself in a split second.

>If you think levels in SMW are anything similar to Mario 64 just because they let you walk back through them, you're an idiot.
Explain how it isn't retard, I already gave exactly why it's the same but in a 3D space, how is it anything different is up to you to prove without going "nuh uh" like you keep doing like a sub double digit IQ retard.

>. You also forgot Mario 3 did the same thing first.
Did I NOT just say that right here;
>(which if you compared it to SMB3/World overworld map, it's the same thing is when the level gets a Mario symbol indicating you cleared the level)

Learn to read before posting retard.

>And keys that unlock other areas on the hub is nothing like Mario 64 either.

>Collect enough stars to unlock the next level
>Find the hidden key to unlock the hidden level
>Not the same shit
Retarded, retarded, retarded. This has to be fucking bait at this point

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I said the original Zelda. I never even mentioned ALttP, but even if I did, the Dark World isn't linear and can be done in almost any order.

>Sunset Hill Act 2 has this segment that's basically the flooded precision platforming section from chemical plant but over a bottomless pit
>Twinkle snow is labyrinth but 100 times worse because bubbles are really hard to find
>All I remember from Cyber Track is pain
>Cream is pretty much a requirement to not die in the final Zone

The music/art is great though. Chaos Angel is amazing.

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>Great, you care. That doesn't mean everyone does.
>it's a "I don't care therefore I'm more right than you" episode

Kill yourself underaged. See this link
vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic
And tell me 9 FUCKING million people and only one (being me) only cares about classic gameplay like it should be. Oh wait, if I was the only one, how did Mania happen, hmm? If Taxman and Stealth didn't care about momentum gameplay, why did they make the greatest game in 20+ years, hmm? Why did this game make higher ratings than all of the Advance games? Surely it isn't the physics, because if it isn't, why did FUCKING SONIC 4 flopped like a bitch for?

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>Twinkle Snow is labyrinth but 100 times worse
I don't remember this at all.

>I said the original Zelda. I never even mentioned ALttP,
Well I did, because ALTTP is literally the first game just HD you massive retard. Which OoT is exactly like ALttP just in 3D space. Every dungeon order, every collectible from weak ass sword/sheild to Hyrule Sword/Shield, to the "second act" of the "dark world", to the last boss fight of Ganon, all the fucking same, just with a 3D coat of paint. There's no game play changes at all in Zelda until BotW happened, which was a Skyrim clone.
Last fucking (You), I'm tired of these retards ITT.

>Explain how it isn't retard, I already gave exactly why it's the same but in a 3D space, how is it anything different is up to you to prove without going "nuh uh" like you keep doing like a sub double digit IQ retard.
Oh the irony. When I already gave examples and you were the one who ignored it and just went "nuh uh." And the rest of your post is just "its the same because I say it is and you're a retard!" To which all I have to do is the same back to you.

Retard.

>Well I did, because ALTTP is literally the first game just HD you massive retard. Which OoT is exactly like ALttP just in 3D space.
Everyone just stop responding to this guy. He's mentally impaired.

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>Collect enough stars to unlock the next level
>Find the hidden key to unlock the hidden level
>Not the same shit
The key is unique to the level it is obtained in and you just need to take it manually to a door.
Stars can be obtained is many ways, in many levels and a certain number is needed for every part of the castle you can visit at anytime.
I'd say it's more difficult to find a similarity.

Having Amy is easily the best part of Advances. Vulnerable jumps, hammer that gives you more control of your trajectory after smashing an enemy (depending on timing) and letting you use some cheeky shortcuts by hammering springs, and trading spindash for a hop that works as both starting boost and a brake make her so much more fun than anyone else.

Your think Mania was the most critically acclaimed Sonic game in 20 years for no reason than nostalgia?

Are you arguing mania blew up souly because its mechanics? I'm sure they helped, but your argument is skewed by the marketing, like the kick ass cartoons. As well as comparing eras of gaming and culture. From the gens to the advanced.

>When I already gave examples
Where faggot? You have nothing to show. Everything I said is literally between both dimensions of Mario, so there's nothing to claim otherwise.

Again, show me what differences mechanically are different between these games, because there is none.

>The key is unique to the level it is obtained in and you just need to take it manually to a door.
Doesn't matter, it's end goal is the same as going x routine to get x star to appear to end the level, same thing. 5 stars = new level still = 1 key = new level. It's the same, there's nothing mechanically different between these two.

>Stars can be obtained is many ways, in many levels and a certain number is needed for every part of the castle you can visit at anytime.
They same exact mechanic is how you unlock the Special World too retard, right down to collect enough stars to do so one to one. Hell 64's design is basically the Star World as a full game now that I realized it, just as a 3D game with the same platforming gameplay in a 3D space.

>I'd say it's more difficult to find a similarity.
Just play the fucking games retard and it wouldn't be that hard to figure it out. NSMB already makes the differences indistinguishable down to the artstyle being the same shit now, Mario makes it clear unless it's RPG shit it's the same exact series just one in 2D one in 3D. Same. Exact. Shit.

I could sumarize this by saying Sonic 4 is garbage and Mania is good.
Sonic Mania sold because it looks like the old ones, the presentation is top notch and the game is flawless in every aspect.
If Sonic 4 had Sonic 1 physics but still looked like shit, with garbage level design and 5 zones it wouldn't have sold much better.

You could just say I am speculating, but if you seriously think even people that like Sonic without playing the main genesis games would like/dislike a game just because of the similarity of the physic to an almost 30 years old game, you're crazy.

2 > 3 > 1
Fight me

autism
it speaks

>Also saying that Mario isn't defined by physic is retarded.
The difference in how heavy Mario feels or much inertia he retains when jumping is not as big a factor as whether or not Sonic rolls up and down slopes properly. This is not to say the physics need to be 1:1 with the Genesis games, but Sonic should be able to interact with slopes like how a spherical object should.

So you're literally saying anyone would lap up Mario taking a shit and that's defining Mario's gameplay because "no one cares about SMB haha" means less about what defines Sonic and more people like you are retarded sheep that eats up anything Sonic because autism and are the main reason the series is dogshit now. Why should Taxman even create Mania with retards like you around, I don't know, he shouldn't have bothers at this point.

The design between OoT and LoZ are completely different, what are you smoking? LoZ is open world with non-linear progression and no story, dungeons that have little to no puzzles that are just combat challenges, with a huge emphasis on finding secrets and exploration.

>LoZ is open world with non-linear progression and no story, dungeons that have little to no puzzles that are just combat challenges, with a huge emphasis on finding secrets and exploration.
If LoZ is what you just said, what the fuck is OoT? not a Zelda game now? I'm done, you people are on the spectrum it's making my head bleed out.

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Mania was successful because it was a great fucking game
Why was it a great fucking game? Because it did what the other great fucking Sonic games did
What made the great Sonic games great? The fucking mechanics
What made the mechanics so fucking great? THE FUCKING PHYSICS

>Also saying that Mario isn't defined by physic is retarded. There wouldn't be a continuity in the ways every 2D Mario controls since SMB3 if it wasn't the case.
But SMW controlled different than SMB3. SMB1, SMB2US, SMB3, and SMW all have different physics and are the major 2D Mario games.

Or maybe it's possible to make a good Sonic game that isn't like the old ones.
I know, crazy theory right there.

>posts best song from the game
>cringy metal version

wtf user
youtube.com/watch?v=JPeJCPkqdvA

>talking shit about Chaotix
fuck you

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>no Amy until postgame
2 sux

Good
Amy can go die in a fire

Yeah but Lost World isn't that so I don't get why you even post anymore other than just to win some retarded war you're forcing
Sonic 4 failed, Mania didn't. Since there's people even making mods of Modern Sonic in Mania now, it's clearly not everyone that looks at classic that thinks it's good for that, it has to be the gameplay then, which since it works, don't fucking change it.

I feel sorry for anyone who isn't woke on Sonic Heroes. Shadow the Hedgehog can go rot in hell though.

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>Heroes
Should be in A at the highest.

>Rivalshit
>Sonic and the Secret Redditors
>above Episode 2
>implying Forces isn't 06 tier and that Schoolhouse isn't better

The list could have been worse, though.

>this thread
Holy shit, I heard Sonic had the worst fanbase, but I never thought it was true. The sheer amount of defensive autism from Sonic fans, obsessing over mechanics and shooting down any contrary opinions, is bordering on Meleefag levels.

Gay

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The sad part about this post is that the only highest rated Sonic game ever is two games that are, in fact, physics based games. Clearly something about physics works for Sonic otherwise it wouldn't have been created in the first place.

2's Amy may as well, she's not supposed to curl

>Encore mode doesn't exist

Heroes bad. Shadow good.

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>Sonic threads
>deep discussion about game design, game mechanics, physics, and momentum
>Mario threads
>haha deep lore dude parallel universe half A press haha

First, the physics aren't everything that compose the gameplay of Sonic.
And second, the question isn't about what made Mania great. It's about why would the other games be bad if they're not doing the exact same thing as every other games.
If fidelity was the only thing that matters, a literal clone of Sonic 2 would be the perfect Sonic game.

Doesn't have as *Advance*d of mechanics as SAdv3 has. Your movesets don't change based on who you're with.

This. It's better because it doesn't make your characters moveset fucking trash and useless based purely on which order they are even in. Unlike Encore were the main moveset you can yourself practice with and get better with, stays there no matter the order you play the characters in.

chaotix is a fucking shitshow of a game and playing through it in one sitting was maybe one of the worst decisions i've ever made
but DAMN if it wasn't fun to laugh at with a friend
2 player sucks if you were wondering

Based but cringe

Actually, I wish we really could have a serious thread about Mario lore without all the Reddit-tier "deepest lore lol" posts.

Encore Mode isn't exactly the same thing but you're on the nose actually, I hope the mechanics of Encore Mode are a precursor to them doing something similar to Advance 3's system in a future Mania sequel

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It is possible. Advance 1 didn't have 1:1 physics to the original and it was pretty good. Again, you just don't get it because most other games aren't based around their physics. Programming a character that can run and jump is one thing and has room for variation, but making a character that acts like a spherical entity requires the physics to work as you would expect for a spherical object.

It's fun rocketing through the zones by throwing your partner and holding the hold button, though, you can get infinite distance

>has to bring up Mario to defend Sonic when the person he's responding to never compared them
Yup, Sonic fans are getting near the worst.

Sonic Advance 3 literally had a rehash of Green Hill Zone. It was the beginning of the end.

>a literal clone of Sonic 2 would be the perfect Sonic game.
Except A: 3K was deemed the best overall, and B:. that's basically what Mania is. You can, however, make a brand new game like Mania that has unique levels, so long as they hit the same high quality craftmenship 3K did, that it too, would play better, thanks to its mechanicals. Because a game like Sonic 4's gameplay with Mania's everything else would not make Mania good at all no matter what. It's called a GAME, and above all else, gameplay comes first, everything else comes after.

>It's about why would the other games be bad if they're not doing the exact same thing as every other games
It's not bad because it isn't exactly like the classics, it's bad because it isn't like a Sonic game

you might be right but we were too drunk to pull it off properly, let alone if we even knew how to do it

At least Advance 3 had the decency to set it during sunset and rename the zone instead of copying it exactly.

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Would it trigger you less if he took out the part mentioning Mario?

Yet no other clone of GHZ did this either, including Mania. Really every signal rehash never just literally ripped 1 to 1 ever but the problem is people just want new locations to go to period, no more revisits every fucking game.

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>he doesn't know

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>Lost World isn't a good game even though I didn't do anything to prove that.
Great, guess I'll die now. Or maybe, that discussion was never about that.
I only point that attacking a game on one aspect that never matters in what the game is aiming for is retarded

That a pretty big assumption you're making here.
The games are the highest rated because of the physics? Also I'd like the see the other recent Sonic game highly rated that has the exact same physic as old genesis ones.
There's Mania... Plus isn't another game, and it's highly rated because it's literally just Mania.

>Sonicfags actually care and talk about the gameplay on the video games board
>somehow they're the worst fanbase for this

>meanwhile Waifucucks talk about who has the best ass or who's the prostitute
>no one cares, THAT'S OKAY.

Getting autistic over actual gameplay > autistic /e/posting, Twitter/ResetEra/OneAngryFaggot/SankakuComplex screencap and ironic/lore/dank memes. You could have actually called out the Rouge/Amy/Blazefags who are posting every now and then instead of raging at the people who actually fucking care about vidya.
Cringe and Mariopilled. Get exposed.

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why does sonic look like a rant youtuber's persona here

>he doesn't think Knuckles wall spindash is the coolest shit ever

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He does? I don't watch that shit, so who knows.

>have cool physics in some movements
ok
>have literally hallway level design
not ok, pretty unfun and anti-sonic actually.

>I only point that attacking a game on one aspect that never matters in what the game is aiming for is retarded
A series staple "doesn't matter"
Again, can't wait for Mario to kill goombas with AK-47s just because that's what they want to do with Mario next time, everyone wants that for sure

>The games are the highest rated because of the physics?
Yes...Yes. And YES again to get it in your thick skull. There's been 3 other posters claiming this is the reason, so yes, yes it is. Is a key element separation Sonic from being any other platformer

Did you think the screen crunch was really bad in Advance 1? I grew up with the game so I can't judge.

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>anti-sonic
>that same exact level in the webm is one of the only ones in the Adventure era to do high middle lower paths where the higher path is faster and if you fall off, you go slower
Heroes channeled the Classic games very well.

He didn't really need that based on the partner right? Though it could be useful for later games.

>shooting down any contrary opinions
What contrary opinions? "Oh no I have to replay this 20 minute game to enjoy it more" isn't an opinion, it's being lazy. Sonic fans are actually more ready than anyone else to shit on a game for the most retarded reason like green eyes.

I derped, I meant he didn't only have that based on the partner right?

But you're literally defining Sonic games by the first ones.
Again to come back to others franchises, Symphony of the Night is a good game, Resident Evil 4 is a good game and Ninja Gaiden Black is a good game.
And some even consider those to be better than the previous entries. You can't just say Sonic can't be good if he isn't what (you) defines as a Sonic gamr in your head.

S3K is deemed the best by who? A general consesus from which community? And Mania isn't a clone, every level is different.
And I agree gameplay comes first, I don't agree there is a single formula that is best above all others.

>its okay to be autistic if its for a good reason
Good to know next time people start railing against me for talking about gameplay nuances in a DOA or turn based RPG. I can just say Sonic fans said it was okay.

That'sactually worse gameplay because it tiers the levels in a non environmental way possible. Robo Blast 2 was far better level design that handled high/low areas far better. Also hate that the 3D games always are hovering over 99% death pits instead of being a real environmental. I think the only game in the series to really make it feel like a real place was 06... sadly.

This thread is just some fucking autist who grew up after having advance 2 as his first sonic game. Stop giving him >(you)s

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>S3K is deemed the best by who? A general consensus from which community?
The 90s community. Like for Zoomers SA2 is the best 3D Sonic and Zoom Zoomers best is Advance 2 or something. For the longest time, 3K was the best for doing every element of Sonic at the same time with the best flow with the most characters, power ups, forms, and levels, with 2 and CD tied for being the best are pure raw speed/exploration.

It wasn't perfect but I do appreciate Heroes for at least trying to do it compared to the Adventure games where you didn't really see that type of design at all.

Yeah but when the acts are 7-9 minutes long you have to do fill those alternate paths with something more interesting than damage sponge enemies that can also be taken care off very easily if you know what you are doing, the whole thing just seems pretty trivial and doesn't live up to the cool level themes, I actually like the game in concept but I'd say it holds up much worse than SA2 where the pace breaking stuff in the speed levels was a very minor issue

>clone
Also clone /= rippoff. Mania is a clone of the classic games because it's the classic gameplay with 4 new levels and 9 remixed levels of old levels. Nothing about it is defined anything different like say, if Sonic could boost instead.

looks like you got ketchup on your glitched hud bro

Yeah but you see, everyone complains about the damage sponge enemies and they don't realize they don't have to fight them if they git gud and stay on the top path. Just like the Genesis games where the bottom paths were slow and full of spikes and hazards.

Sonic actually had pretty major gameplay experimentation early on with 3D Blast, Sonic CD, R and Chaotix and just as they have many people who are turned off by the games being different they have many fans who would pay money for a more in depth sequel, the problem isn't that anything else that isn't Sonic 3 is bad, the problem is that no one is developing new ideas with the franchise that work or can be improved and give them continuation.

>everyone wants that for sure
If you take out your idiotic example, do you really think you need to create something because that's what peoplr wants?
And that's not an obective truth, that's what you think people wants. Why wouldn't people want a Sonic game that plays like Mario. If it was an excellent Mario, would the game be bashed by the everyone because it's not like the previous Sonic games?

>There's been 3 other posters claiming this is the reason
Three people with the same opinion. That's not how it works, you can't create a truth just by repeating the shit the guy next to you says.

Yes, actually it is. You can tell those faggots to go choke on a dick.

>Why wouldn't people want a Sonic game that plays like Mario.
BECAUSE WHEN I BUY A SONIC GAME I WANT TO PLAY A SONIC GAME
IF I WANTED TO PLAY A MARIO GAME I WOULD'VE BOUGHT A FUCKING MARIO GAME

>S3K is deemed the best by who?

Maybe I'm a little bit biased (Because I love Sonic 3 like alot) and I'm not old enough to actually remember how people felt about it back then because I was still a youngish kid playing Sonic 3 at peoples houses. But the general consensus seems to be that Sonic 3 and Knuckles is considered one of the best classic games...possibly even the best Sonic game of all time.

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The first Sonic Adventure received better critics than the second one if I remember correctly. It was what people thought at the time tho, I guess people that were kids when it released prefered adventure 2.

>If you take out your idiotic example, do you really think you need to create something because that's what peoplr wants?
...Like, for real, this is bait, right? Do you really not know how marketing works? Like, at all. Why ELSE should this not be the case? I mean, sure, if I asked for guns in Sonic, human romance in Sonic, fucking FISHING in Sonic, your arugment would make sense... but it doesn't. Because a sane company, like, Nintendo or something, whouldn't just make Peach x Bowser porn becaues manchildren ask for that shit, but what makes sense for the sake of your brand, you should do for the fan's demands. If I wanted a game like Mania without reused levels, call it, Sonic Discovery or something, then there, that's all I want. If you wanted to add stuff to it that ACTUALLY works with the physics formula, by all means, go for it. Just don't be retarded and water down the experince with inferior gameplay elements that ruin the experince as a whole. Otherwise, I honestly don't care. Just don't do shit like Lost World, Sonic 4, or heaven forbid, Forces, I'd rather play Mario or something if you're going to make discount Mario 2D gameplay because "lol Mario did it, so why can't we?"

>Three people with the same opinion. That's not how it works, you can't create a truth just by repeating the shit the guy next to you says.
...Do you know how facts work, right? If everyone agrees the sky is blue, it ain't fucking purple you retard.

The original did get a 90 I think, but the DX port made kids think SA1 was dogshit compared to SA2B, Ninten-drone's first Sonic game. Which is a shame really.

>except the music is kinda shit

You shut your whore mouth.

But then it has nothing to do with the quality of the game itself. If this game isn't for you well, too bad. Others will enjoy.

>Why wouldn't people want a Sonic game that plays like Mario
OMG
A: See B: Just fucking mod Sonic in a Mario and stick to that. In fact, here you fucking go:
youtube.com/watch?v=Cwcs_TqJzPQ
There, now let people actually get what they ask for in Sonic and you stay with that m'kay?

youtube.com/watch?v=OilBAKCgaMI

youtube.com/watch?v=BIG4IeOStjM
youtu.be/Qxu8GqwStvo
youtu.be/ltvUo3mLYCU
youtu.be/1298ltL8_SA
youtu.be/ZoFPdlA1SHQ

i fucking love the genesis/megadrive

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you can go die in a fire

It's not really a fair comparison when this really isn't at all what Lost World was going for.

If you're gonna compare games then compare it to Sonic 4, a game that's rides on being a titular classic Sonic title but fails miserably.

>You can't just say Sonic can't be good if he isn't what (you) defines as a Sonic gamr in your head
Good thing it's not all on my head cause sends everyone agrees when you make a Sonic game that does all the good shit all the good Sonic games did you get a good game that everyone loves. Nintendo's games are all straightforward and rarely change the formula, but they are highly refined, evolved and will polished games. Some franchises can innovate and shake foundations and some can't, and Sonic just plain can't.

Fuck, I wish more people would make original songs with the Genesis soundchip. This shit's amazing. thanks for sharing.

I posted specifically the ones that have that snare drum because it's super obvious, there's others using the chip but not for the drums. Check out his bandcamp. The shameless-est of plugs

>It's not really a fair comparison when this really isn't at all what Lost World was going for.
That's the fucking problem. For 10+ years Sonic has been doing nothing but try to something different and innovative and for 10+ years he's been dragged through the fucking dirt with shitty game after shitty game. Stop trying to be different and start trying to be GOOD

Based, megadrive sound at its best is peak comfy upbeat lofi.

>If everyone agrees the sky is blue, it ain't fucking purple you retard.
Three people is everyone? Or hell, even an entire community. You have people stating the Earth is flat and will gang up on you to prove it, I guess it's a fact then.

And it's funny you talk about marketing, because that's the reason you can sell a game with Sonic on it and plays nothing like Sonic.
I am talking about creating games, not how you sell them. If your desires are defined by marketing, by a fucking name on a box, that says a lot about your way of thinking.

youtu.be/41Y3PKkkePk is this the most kino game credits ever or?

>Three people is everyone?
Four if you include now, but no, there's millions (8+ and more thanks to mods like AIR now) that enjoy 3K compared to the rest, but it doesn't matter if it it is, basically all the classic games are regarded the best at what they do, all of which, are physics based. Even the Advance games, all good for their focuses, all physics based.

>And it's funny you talk about marketing, because that's the reason you can sell a game with Sonic on it and plays nothing like Sonic.
And what's funny about that, all of them sale far worse than the best sold games, and rated lower than the best rated games. No matter what you do or say, Sonic's constantly 90s gameplay is the best he's ever had, so trying to dummy him down just to be some Mario rippoff just reeks of non fan, or some fan of Sonic for some other non gameplay related shit like archie, porn, story, or some other degenerate crap.

Again

>try to do something different and innovative
You realize that they've been cranking out boost games for ten years now right? Lost World was the exception, and it was nice that they at least attempted to make a 3D Sonic game that wasn't essentially on-rails.

People still count shit like Boom as mainline for some reason.

well congratu-fucking-lations they landed on a gameplay style that's shallow and boring and have already run out of ways to evolve it and everyone's already tired of it.

It's literally a spin off in every possible way

You were suppose to use the second character as a support for your MAIN of that zone. A lot of people think, "oh let me keep switching characters mid level" and don't know how to style with unlocked skills.

Even if millions enjoys a game that has the physics of the originals (Advance doesn't by the way) that doesn't mean those or others wouldn't enjoy a game that is different.
Not everyone thinks like you, not all games should be made for you.

Also if you want to talk about sales, yes the Genesis one sold the best.
But then, by your logic, Mania being the succesor, the game that understood everything about Sonic, should have sold as much, because that's what people wanted right?
Surely it sold more than the Adventure games, Unleashed, Colors or even a shitty spin-off like the olympic games.

What would you fix in a hypothetical Advance 4/Advance Mania.

>Surely it sold more than the Adventure games, Unleashed, Colors or even a shitty spin-off like the olympic games.
No but it sure had a better critical reception, and SEGA cares too much about that.

>369 replies
>about an old ass Sonic gba game
Yea Forums once again proves it that's it's the most autistic place to discuss vidya

STOP LIKING SONIC!!!!!!!

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It only caught on thanks to the same autist that always complains the games don't blow all their load the first time.

>(Advance doesn't by the way)
How retarded are you? For real, how can someone be this retarded?

youtube.com/watch?v=MN-CXFCAcZc&feature=youtu.be

Heroes is so inferior to SA1/2, I just can't enjoy it.

But sales are cold hard numbers, critics are opinion. Anyway that was just a way to show how shallow that argument is.
If someone likes Mania that doesn't mean he doesn't like other Sonic games, or likes Mania just because Sonic rolls down a fucking hill when he's in a ball.
This what this WEBM says, this is the point of this discussion. Sonic is not defined by rings, badnicks, bumpers, spin dash or anything like that. If Sonic doesn't roll down that fucking hill it's bad.

The problem is the game has a co-op mode and 75% of combinations give one player the short-end of the stick.

>should have sold as much, because that's what people wanted right?
He has, next to Generations, which sold 3 million total in 8 years while Mania did 2 in 2 years. Overtime it will outsell the highest sold game of this decade, outside of the Mario and Sonic Olympic games, because well, Mario is in it. Makes me wonder is that why you keep asking for Mario gameplay in Sonic?

You also got to have the common sense that the ~10 million of classic fags stopped supported the series as avidly as modern fags because until Mania happened, why would anyone want games like Lost World, which sold 500,000 copies? Less than even 06 did. Sonic is a massive fucking joke right now, with that movie likely going to air tomorrow or soon enough, killing more good image this series barely has left, and you're complaining Mania didn't sell more than 1/10th the amount of his classic games did where no such thing as 06 happened? I really I'm tired of talking, I've been here for hours and nothing is making sense with you. Good day, and hope you off yourself so less of your kind can exist bogging down this series more and more with your shit standards.

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>How retarded are you?
I return the question to you. What in this video shows Advance games are a 1:1 recreation of the genesis physics? Did you played the genesis and Advance games back to back or you're seriously thinking they're the same?

>What in this video shows Advance games are a 1:1 recreation of the genesis physics?
If that isn't genesis physics if not very close to that, you never played them before. Like, never.

Attached: ProfessionalAnalysis.webm (1024x576, 2.94M)

>critics are opinions
Opinions that SEGA takes very seriously, which is why 06 despite being a high selling game on every platform was taken off of every store unlike Mania which will have all of its physical copies available until they run out of them.
>If sonic doesn't roll it's bad
Well yeah Sonic being a ball in 2D games was half of the gameplay before autistic gotta go fast simulators, boost was never a better replacement.

the soundtrack is god-tier but the rest of the game kinda sucks

>Why wouldn't people want a Sonic game that plays like Mario
Because the worst Sonic game is better than the best Mario game

Sonic Advance 1 Amy was the most kino shit desu

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>Even if millions enjoys a game that has the physics of the originals (Advance doesn't by the way) that doesn't mean those or others wouldn't enjoy a game that is different.
Well we've yet to see a Sonic game that people have enjoyed as much as the Genesis games so not really helping your case.

>Not everyone thinks like you
Everyone may not think like me, but considering the UNIVERSAL praise that Mania got, at least we can all agree on one thing. No other Sonic game does it better than the classics.

#
#
He is right actually. advance 1's physics aren't quite 1:1. They're very close, but not exact, and that's fine. Advance 2 and 3 deviate even more

It's a shame that they haven't capitalized on that style of gameplay much after the fact. Don't understand the people who got mad about people wanting Amy in Mania for the sake of having that playstyle again.

I remember some YouTube guy fucking screaming about Ryan Drummond and Jason Griffith in like 2007.

Not really, I'd say it actually looks a bit off on fanmade that remaster, the bigger screen makes the stages look more blocky.

Never said it wasn't close. But if people searched to recreate the Genesis games it's for a reason.

And no games doing better means that nothing else should exist?
Again you want that every games to cater to your vision just because they're the best to you, and you'll take every sign that go in your direction.
If creative bankrupt is the way to go for you, great. But that is not explaining why the physics and only the old, genesis physics will make a Sonic game good.

>bottomless pits the game

You say this as if people haven't been accepting Sonic Team experiments over the years with the adventure games and Unleashed, the racing games are a perfect example of the Sonic brand put to good use in a familiar and different way, just because we don't accept everything that Lizuka shat out in the mid 2000s doesn't mean people won't give the benefit of the doubt to new gameplay that has substance, replacing turning into a ball with press X to kill everything in you way is all style no substance shit.

And every other Advance game got lower scores each time. Funny how that is.

I used to spend hours drawing maps like this as a kid. Spend all day after school planning levels out for a game that never came to be.

If Sega wasn't so goddamn incompetent they'd have released something like Mario Maker that would sell gangbusters

actually its the other way around

>And no games doing better means that nothing else should exist?
Did I say that?

>Again you want that every games to cater to your vision
It's not my vision, it's the vision of the people who made Sonic great in the first place.

>just because they're the best to you,
Trust me, it's NOT just me

>If creative bankrupt is the way to go for you,
If wanting a game series to make games that are based on the games that everyone loves and are super successful is creative bankruptcy than I don't want what you consider /not/ creatively bankrupt. I've probably already played it though.

>But that is not explaining why the physics and only the old, genesis physics will make a Sonic game good.
Because they are at the core of what Sonic is all about. The sense of speed in the Genesis games wouldn't be half as enjoyable without the realistic sense of weight and momentum you get from rolling downhill. Nor would you get the intricate interaction with sloped surfaces that allow for greater movement options that are dependant on the angle of the terrain, your speed and your timing that allow for extra high jumps to reach otherwise inaccessible places. The physics are what give Sonic that extra layer of depth and complexity to the movement that gives the speed some actual weight. It is what made
Sonic great.

>webm
>Forces
What am I missing? He rolls down the slope and maintains his speed

>she should be shit and not know how to do basic hedgehog things

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She's practically the most normie character in the gang so it makes sense

I thought Episode 2 was pretty alright, people give it too much flak

episode 2 of what

Sonic 4

It just feels right for her, it's also pretty fun.

Sonic 4?

if people are shitting on Sonic 4 that's very good

She literally just wanted to run to one day keep up with him, like how Sakura just thought Ryu was inspiring and learned his moves through self discipline and practice.

She deserves props and thus she should get to do what literal hedgehogs can. Joke characters are for people that random = funny.

Advance 1 Amy is not a joke character. She's an incredibly unique and inventive playstyle that compliments Sonic's playstyle very well. She's one of the few instances of an alternate character not just being Sonic with different abilities and still being fun to play

Spax3

I remember because I used to be a part of the Sonic fandom. Everything aside, I think Griffith went from worst to best Sonic voice in a single stroke. He did great in Black Knight. Roger just doesn't do it for me.

I vageuly remember Amy being much more useful in 3. I believe she had a high jump move by default which was far more useful than just flying like Tails.

>Spax 3
I've been here too long. Is he still alive?

He exists. This is his youtube channel I guess, but I don't know anything about him since long ago.
youtube.com/user/GamerSpax

>implying there are ramps, scripted or not, you can go up in 3D sonic games
lol no, it's just a wall with a row of springs beneath it

>mfw i remember all the autism that this guy brought
>mfw i was once a subscriber to him and believed every word

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We were all young.
I just remember that was the first time I actually noticed voice acting, and that I was surprised how Griffith made Sonic and Shadow sound different enough I thought they were different people.

>mfw I remember FUCK GRIFFITH

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akshually, its westpolis 10 times but 4 of those are get to the end, 3 are kill the soldiers and the other 3 are getting rid of those horrible black creatures.
So it's not strictly all the same

Absolutely based reply

You HAVE to explore more in this game than anything else. You have to find ALL 7 golden rings in every level and there are a ton of branching paths, many of which you can't go backwards on. You pretty much have to have to replay the levels tons of tons of times and explore all of them to the absolute fullest in order to find all the rings. Then after you commit the entire thing to memory you still have to pull off all the jumps and tricks to stay on that path. And you have to do it as Sonic too, no easy modo Cream.
Game isn't noted for its difficulty in the franchise for nothing.

Wish I saw this thread earlier

Attached: sonic start.gif (500x428, 132K)

Id say over half the levels in Adventure 1 were set in an environment compared to right up in the sky. More than heroes did it

Advance 2 chads unite. Thinking about it the special rings would probably be excellent if you just had to get 3 or 4 of them and they were just slightly bigger. That way they can keep the exploration and challenge but wouldn't feel as restrictive when one of the best things about the game is the freedom of movement when you git gud with momentum, boost and tricks.

It was obvious that he was talking about SA1, you're just a retard.

>Also hate that the 3D games always are hovering over 99% death pits instead of being a real environmental.

I never really had this problem besides Radicool Highway/Mission Street Which are just ugly/lazy levels in general (though the former is fun). The way the ark levels were set out in particular just looked so cool.

>Sonic 3K was always considered one of the best games of all time, next to the likes of Mario, with CD coming second and 2 coming third.
Where the fuck is this bulshit coming from btw?
3&K wasn't considered the best until contrarians on here came along. Saying CD comes second just make me think you're from a different fucking universe because that couldn't be any further from the truth as possible at any point in time.

>3&K wasn't considered the best until contrarians on here came along

This thread has officially gone full retard