Why is the strategy genre dying? are MOBA games to blame?

not controller friendly and esports autism killed it dead.

It didn't die because of MOBAs but MOBAs, city builders, 4X and grand strategy made people realise they don't actually love RTSs.

MOBAs, GSGs, and city builders to some point
Every RTS is just reskin of 20 years old game anyway

>They are retard, they can't be strategists
RTS barely have to do with strategy and more with micro and build orders which is just tedious.

>Every RTS is just reskin of 20 years old game anyway
how come?
micro is just a thing "needed" for online
99% of players only play singleplayer

this

younger gamers do not have the intellectual capacity any longer to fathom an RTS. They need shit like Apex or Fortnite. Far less cerebral games.

We are in a lot of trouble

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Micro helps a lot even in sp, at least it did in wc3.
Shit was very tedious to play imo

>esports autism
This. I don't know why do they brag about how many buttons they can push in a minute.

i dont remember the warcraft 3 campaign being that hard, i think i finished that game when i was 13
micro was way worse in stuff like AoE imo
i dont get why esports get so much hate
i never followed RTS tournaments but if someone is really good doesnt he deserve the prize money ?

>i dont get why esports get so much hate
Noobs are always angry at people who play better.

Everyone under 25 or so is irreparably retarded.

>i dont remember the warcraft 3 campaign being that hard, i think i finished that game when i was 13
I got stuck at mission where you defend Kel'Thuzad, it was only second campaign.

>I got stuck at mission where you defend Kel'Thuzad, it was only second campaign.
dont remember that specific mission, have you tried lowering difficulty?
theres some tips here too reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/8sxxv0/protecting_kelthuzad/

>i dont get why esports get so much hate
it indirectly killed RTS games by making every retarded-ass dev focus their efforts on some stupid competitive multiplayer mode that nobody will ever touch and ignoring everything else in hopes of gaining those big esport bucks
then the audience they ignored just went to grand strat, city builders and management games
yes i'm mad

>tier 3
>one single hero
>the hero is Lich
>banshees
>ghouls

big yikes

RTS was killed by oversaturation imo. Time was I'd go to the store and 2/3rds of the pc section was rtses I'd never heard of. Remember the Everquest RTS?

>killed RTS games by making every retarded-ass dev focus their efforts on some stupid competitive multiplayer mode that nobody will ever touch
you're exxaggerating, most RTS games dont think of the competitive players at all, seems like a dumb strawman

I don't remember, it was like eternity ago. Probably I was too stubborn to lower difficulty or was discouraged too quickly.

Total war is not an RTS.
It is not in real time, it's turn based.
Paradox games are ironically in real time

it's a multitude of factors, but i feel like esports autism is the most insidious one
i wish, cnc3 for example has a broken campaign now because of changes for the damn pvp

I just want older games, but remade into something more cohesive and with modern hardware support, and Populous: the Beggining 2 which should be assymetrically balanced and tell story about four bitter women trying to ascend into Godhood.
>Everquest RTS
Jesus, someone else actually played it?

The combat is real time, and the combat is the best part.

lets see

>No wc4 ever
>SC2 ruined the story and the mp while fun is filled with unnecessary shit to pad apm like queen eggs and chrono boost.
>C&C 4 was shit (so I heard)
>Games made for consoles in mind ruined the UI for PC versions like Universe at war and Halo Wars
>Battleforge was great but EA being EA stopped support very early, first xpac was 80% reskins.

What else is there? Age of empires?

>most RTS games dont think of the competitive players at all
What is Starcraft.

AoE 4 is made by Relic. Same guys brought you Dawn of War 3.

Yeah, I loved WC3 and it was attempting to compete so I gave it a shot. I remember everything leveled up and it was a fairly fun campaign.
Agree to disagree I guess. The most popular rtses of my youth were BW and WC3 and they were full of people playing casual custom games online. Even AOE2 had a fuckload of fun custom games. None of that was "esports"

RTS was killed because more specialized games came along. Most people were sticking with the genre not because they liked it as a whole, but because they liked certain parts of it like city building or army management.

>Are MOBA games to blame?
What? How? MOBA is dying as well; only LoL and DOTA2 still reign, but LoL and DOTA2 are both bleeding players.

Online is fucking boring with games like Warcraft and AOE etc. It's just who can zerg rush faster and if the other has a slight lead leave game and repeat.
Warcraft 3 custom games are alright though.

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The average person is literally too stupid

For instance, look at this moron. If you don't understand rushes, how to beat them, and why they are absolutely necessary for the balance of the game you simply don't know the first thing about RTS.

>Tfw totally suppressed DoW from my mind thanks to game 3.
Ah right, that shit game too.

thats one game, not "all" like you claimed, and starcraft 2 campaign is still really good

>it is not in real time

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I understand them, I just think its not fun. It's basically speedrunning against each other.
I do love me some WC3/SC campaigns.

Only LoL and Dota succeeded though.

>Why is the strategy genre dying?
I don't play strategy games because visually they're not engaging enough. I can only stare at the same thing for so long before I start realizing that the game is just one big spreadsheet with a space/fantasy/historical/etc theme. The same thing would happen with MMORPGs but the explorational aspects offset the nagging feeling that it's just one big number crunching exercise enough to keep me interested.

RTS needs to incorporate aspects of other genres to thrive. If I could actually fight in real time as well as take the role of the tactician then I'd be more interested in the genre.

You might not agree with my opinion, but this is how many people on the outside looking in see it.

I only played WoL and was left with mixed feelings gameplay wise, the amount of content is good, but the problem is that a good portion of it is not really useful/needed, you get an upgrade shop, nostalgia baiting with some of the campaign exclusive units, the dual research tree and fucking mercenaries, but in the end 90% of the time just blobbing marines with marauders and medics does all the job, making a good portion of the content feel unwelcomed.

Maybe favorite was Infinite Crisis, which would have been just as successful as DOTA and LoL, but the dev team was absolutely retarded. HoTS is alright, but more like a party version of the MOBA.

>If I could actually fight in real time
well theres a reason its called Real Time Strategy
>as well as take the role of the tactician
what do you mean by this? you mean something like Total War battles where the battles themselves are extremelly simplified?

I picked it up again not long ago, the mission where arthas has to defend the town til uther arrives kicked my ass

Having a problem with mission 5 on the very first campaign. Playing on hard and already I feel like a total twat. Doing the side objective messes me up so bad. Ah well keep trying I guess.

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I mean a hybrid. Real Time Strategy means you're playing the strategy part in real time, but the combat is done on your behalf automatically. When you send units out, you don't fight as the unit - integers and randomness determine the outcome of the battle.

What this means is that a lot of time is sat there watching the same map (Usually the blank void of space or something similar) seeing dots and lines move towards other dots and lines until someone is victorious.

This is simply too dull for me. I understand RTS fans like it, and that's fine, but if you're wondering why the genre is not as successful as others then this is a big reason why.

What else are you gonna do in the first five minutes... watch your workers collect resources? There is a hard limit on how fast you can go anyways because of build times and resource collection rates. You only need like 40apm to execute the "build orders".

the one where you have to defend it from 3 sides? god i struggled so much in that one
i dont understand your point of view since i liked RTS from an early age
do you want the battles to be cooler or something? i dont get what you're trying to say

just go after it with invincible arthas

They are hard to get into and even harder to get decent at. Mobas, the simplified versions were more retard friendly but now even those are dead and shooters are the hot shit since the entry barrier is even lower.

fuck no, the roster was meh(4+ supermen, 4+ batmen lmao) the graphics were shitty and the gameplay/abilities were super basic.

Hots actually had potential but blizzard didn't invest enough in the beginning and refused to stop catering to casuals, they had the wrong mindset from the get go and it never took off.

>i dont understand your point of view since i liked RTS from an early age
>do you want the battles to be cooler or something? i dont get what you're trying to say

I want to dictate the battles as much as I dictate the strategy. For example if it was a space RTS then after I've sent my fleet/ship to the destination to intercept the enemy fleet/ship the screen should zoom in to where the battle is taking place and give me real-time control over a ship and dogfight the enemy. The outcome of the battle should be dependent on my skill, obviously factoring in the strategic position I'm in for better or worse.

so you want an action/strategy hybrid
store.steampowered.com/app/616560/Ultimate_Epic_Battle_Simulator/
this is the only one i know, you can take control of a single unit in it
theres also a HL2 mod called zombie master where the survivor side is an FPS and the zombie side is a single player that manages zombies and spawns them, dunno if its still alive

>Why is the strategy genre dying?
its not, stop playing RTS garbage

how can you struggle in a blizzard game

Blizzard games before WoW actually took some brains to play

no they didnt

okay

There hasn't been a new rts that offered anything fresh so the genre got stale. SC2 is too big for its own good and barely anything gets a fraction of its attention. Some other rtss have the flaw that the metagame becomes too rigid so playing against other people isn't that terribly interesting or the sessions are too long and not varied enough.

>Search for RTS games on website
>Search results lump them in with MOBAS
It's over lads, they're just too complex. Give it one more gen and the closest you'll get to a true RTS is a slightly more complicated MOBA.

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Because trends change

Cause for some reason RTS devs refuse to go back to the basics when they make new games and always wanna remove base building or resource collection for god knows why.
Examples
>nu-C&C
>Dawn of War 3
Also grand strategy, city builders and 4x games are going well and are not what killed RTS games.

Lets list some RTS games you enjoy! I'll start: Empire at war.

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Not only is strategy not dying it's more alive then ever. Google all of the new titles yourself.

I still can't believe how much I love it despite the buggy engine.
Also, Battle Realms.

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The Windows gaming market is thanks to companies like Epic looking more and more like the console market where strategy games are few and far between.
Its not accident that all the Total War games and all the Paradox Grand Strategy titles are available on Linux. Its the only segment of the 'PC' market left that looks like the PC market used to.

I don't think it's MOBAs. If DOTA was never made on WC3 this thread would be up asking if FPS or some other genre killed RTS. I don't think anyone born after the early 90's really has any patience to learn an RTS and since the focus is 1v1 there's no one to scapegoat.
I've played a pretty good amount of WC3 over the years and it's annoying how all these people are asking for a bunch of changes to the game in reforged to effectively just make the game be played for them, and then they'll probably quit after a month or two and wonder why a lot of the core audience widdles away.

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But user the new strategy games popular today are way more complex than WC3 or AOE2.

I don't remember which one that is off the top of my head, but some of the levels are drastically more difficult than others, and sporadically placed. I went back and played the game like 9-12 months ago and most lvls were pretty easy on Hard but then there was like one or two levels per campaign that were harder than any other level even though I had to reload it on normal. The one with Sylvannus and the 5 or 6 Scourge bases was a real bitch because of Orange base lmao

Lmao it'd take five minutes to take that town hall down with 3 banshees and 4 ghouls, the game would be over by then

AOE2 isn't complex, but it doesn't matter because as a percentage not nearly the same number of people are playing RTS X vs Brood War in the early to mid 2000's. They are drastically less popular as a genre

This. Why they have to remove base building? Also, C&C4 and the mobile look eerily similar. Was it planned right from the start?

my childhood games
>Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds (AoE2 devs)
>Praetorians
>Imperium II (pseudo-rpg shit)
>Warcraft III

>Praetorians
my man

SupCom1
EatW
Empire Earth
Universe at War
Sins of a Solar Empire
Rise of Nations
Command and Conquer
Age of Empires
Nexus: The Jupiter Incident
Dawn of War 1

Lets not put MOBAs and Dota into the same bracket. Almost all WC3 mechanics were used AND are still being used 17 years later in Dota. Mechanics that other games find "OP", "Unfun" or "Boring". Unlimited posibilites and unique interactions are what makes this game so amazing.

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this, custom games are why w3 is getting a remake anyway.

Dota has been trash since they normalized everything so there are no unique item/ability interactions anymore. Hell they even got rid of composite damage because something being part magical and part physical was too hard for new players they wanted to draw in to comprehend apparently lmao

That's not how Warcraft 3 works even at the most mediocre level

Blizzard catering to high APM gooks instead of the LAN party crowd
Esports didn't help either since it created a gap between MUH APM fags and lads who wanna have fun

Because a-move mashing giant blobs into each other isn't satisfying gameplay.

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They recently scrapped the fire component idea and hero status resistance. It was not received well at all.

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This
Tryhard faggots killed RTS
Devs listened to them because they we're good but little do they know that they just want to pubstomp and feel good about themselves

No, it's devs and publishers being too fucking greedy. There's an obvious neglected market for these games and they refuse to fill it because not that it doesn't make money, it's because it doesn't make as much as other genres.

Fuck them. Fuck them all.

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PC games used to be very complex, but then they dumbed them down so they could be ported/played on console. Then console games became dumbed down so they could be ported/played on phones/tablets, so PC games had to follow that. There is just no way original PC games can thrive anymore, which is exactly the kind of game RTS games are.

No, gaming used to be for actual incel type nerds, now it's a normie thing, and as all normie things it needs to be dumbed down enough to comprehend.

Yeah devs dumb down their game for normies meanwhile ignoring that Paradox grand strategy, civ games and total war dominate the market

I really want someone to just mimic Total War and make it not shit

Companies like to appeal to the lowest common denominator because even if they fuck up they still make a decent profit. Appealing to niche may get you a nice devoted fanbase but if you fuck up you get nothing, there's no safety net.

> I don't think anyone born after the early 90's really has any patience to learn an RTS and since the focus is 1v1 there's no one to scapegoat.
Sounds accurate.

muh nigga.

If anyone is on US W and wants to play some 1v1s or 2v2s add me, TheFishMonger

All difficult multiplayer games are dying.

I blame fire emblem for turning into a dating sim

I started playing wc3 again after the new patches.
God I hate playing against NE with the new KotG meta.

Could've been a cool idea but the problem is that it only worked for like two spells when there are shitloads of spells and normal attacks with fiery effects on them. You'd think a hero like Lina would set it off everytime considering she throws fucking fireballs.

>posts 4v4 bullshit
dumb fucking nigger

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>gay tumblr image
>thinks mobas are still being made
take your dumb ass back to retardera

warcraft is like the gay

They removed base building and resource gathering in DoW 2 too.

moba is easier and typically free to play, and fun

Rise of Nations

fun is subjective
moba is satisfying when you win, it isnt usually fun when you lose except if its really close

1v1 games in general are dying (ignoring fighting games)
Games with high skill floors in general are dying

Gamers nowadays are too used to being coddled to play complex 1v1 games.
It's all about the ego protection, they can't handle thinking their loss was their fault and not luck or their team.

i discovered quake duels a few years back and they're a blast to play, but its just hard to get an even match
same thing with fighting games or RTS, if you start playing now you're faced with boomers that have been getting better for years so its impossible to have an even online experience unless you play with a friend thats also new

Cause 1v1 games are just not as fun as team games.

It depends on the game, I find team games fun, although they got boring very quickly compared to 1v1 games that I just don't get bored of

that's complete bullshit. only two games were esports and only in one country that most people didn't care about.

theres something special about knowing its all in your own and dont have anyone to blame but yourself if you lose
in a team game you can always blame it on the team and think that you weren't the fault, but in 1v1 you dont have that and its somewhat liberating

RTS games aren't fun when you lose either

yeah so thats not an argument

team games are fun when you play with people you know. when you play with strangers it leads to frustration more often than not. 1v1 doesn't have that problem.

You can play an RTS game with minimal cooperation. In a MOBA it's absolutely necessary.

nope, lol

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WHAT HAVE I BECOME, MY SWEETEST FRIEND?

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:((((((

AND YOU COULD HAVE IT ALL
MY EMPIRE OF DIRT
I WILL LET YOU DOWN
I WILL MAKE YOU HURT

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IF I COULD START AGAIN
A MILLION MILES AWAY
I WOULD KEEP MYSELF
I WOULD FIND A WAY

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>Normies talk strategy.
>Think Starcraft
>Think fuck you levels of complexity and strategy and carpal tunnel syndrome.
>They somehow can't think of any other game in the genre, and wouldn't want to.
>See MOBAs,
>"Oh wow this is far easier to manage this one guy... or maybe two..."
It's Mobas...

I tried Dominions (IIRC), and found it to be a bit overwhelming at the outset, as well as time consuming. There were also other games I was interested in at the time. It also didn't capture the magic that was WC3 custom maps pre-dota.

the actual answer is that it focuses far too much on e-sports when the core of RTS' popularity was in low level casual play

RTS dont focus too much on e-sports, the vast majority of games dont have any eSports participation, theres more games than starcraft

sounds like the one where you have to hold off for 30 minutes while he summons archimonde
I beat that by building a bunch of towers at the three entry points and have one or two groups to shift around to hold aggro to keep repairs down

>Battleforge
reborn soon

youtu.be/rW3pA5CsEdI

Would the Yea Forums rts comunity be interested in a single player arcade survival RTS inspired by starship troopers that plays like gnomoria but the gameplay is AoE II?

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show, don't tell

I made this sprite some time ago.

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sounds like a custom AoE2 / SWGB map more than an actual game
if you want it to play like AoE, just make it a custom gamemode in AoE

tbf you were all fucking retards when I played against you online.

I want to make my own custom art.

see:

cant you just slap your sprites into AoE ? or is that not possible? you could probably replace game files with your own files and easily make what you want

Genres like RTS and fightan aren't as popular because the blame is 100% on you when you lose. There's no feeders to turn to and blame, there's no hiding in bushes until the last 10, you can't get carried by smurfs or natural savants way too good for your skill bracket.

I think it would be simpler to make a new simpler RTS on godot than modding AoE II to look like a diferent game.

It's a niche genre compared to others, full of autists who realize that the only strategy games worth playing are at least a decade old.

Gookclickers died, there are plenty of strategy games out there, and for micro heavy games people went back to SC1 and WC3.

Also MOBAs are starting to die because they're digging themselves into the esports pandering hole that SC2 did where they're layers upon layers of nonsense to what should be a reletively simple game with lots of depth, but now they're meta pandering nonsense where global mechanics that make no sense only get worse over time, like league's retarded catch up mechanics or dota's constant reworking of runes and ward bounties and adding bounties to denies which are all bandaids to the fundemental problems introduced over the past 5 years by trying to make esports more exciting to watch by speeding up the game to -em levels of fast, pretty much eliminating the concept of an early game.

At the end of the day, we still have WC3, and that game is 10/10 micro focused RTS

This is false, PC gaming isn't dying, esports meme is dying, casual games are on the rise such as BR shit, and can you blame people for not wanting to play games like a second fucking job to maintain a decent ranking so the automated matchmaking system doesn't pair you with retards.

That mission was one of the harder points of the game. I used cheats to get passed it. Not my proudest moment. Especially now since I can beat it without cheats.