What do you think would happen if From adds easy difficulty for Sekiro...

I mean boss attacks user, for the skills well you don't even have much room to use them anyway so switching between them wouldn't do much. I mean what can you even do besides different startup length and damage? Anything with unique properties like knockdown will be too broken, that's why they limit prosthetics since some of them actually are broken.

>From adds easy mode
>it's literally that you can't get hurt
>Only way you can die is self damage
>Journalists still complain it's too hard being stuck on a boss that can parry you back and knock you down.

falling doesn't even kill you in this game

I've taken damage from falling, and if you fall into the skybox you can die.

>you should play the game the way i play it

Some of you are so obsessed over "casual" players it's fucking mental. I guess that's what happens when you get bullied in school.

I guess all the people who abused Souls cheese are finally coming out of the woodwork eh? No more grinding, summons, and cheese equips now.

>projecting this hard

>boss calls mc a bad name
>"sekiro is a game for bullies, news at 9"
Casuals need to neck themselves already.

Mate if Miyazaki can beat all his games then you can as well.

>using words you don't understand

>simply infinite resurrection.
What would be the point in playing if you can never lose?

>what do you think would happen if From adds easy difficulty for Sekiro? like decreased damage or simply infinite resurrection

If someone told me they played the game with something like this, I wouldn't take anything they say about the gameplay seriously. All i can engage in conversation with to this kind of person is about shota shit

>shota
>not the qt as fuck rice loli

why are you so obsessed over having to be able to play every game?

Why not both. Why not make them breed for superior children?

We have the inevitable China DLC for that.

I love it when she overslept

>ng+ with path of hardships
>kick Genichiro’s ass in the tutorial
>kill the first general without taking damage
>wew looks like I got gud
>get to this fucker
>oneshotted
Thanks From

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>This is also why LoL is shit and Dota is great. because Dota has no surrender option, it forces players to not give up and keep playing. It has produced many many miracle comebacks for everyone.
I already run it down if we're 0-20 and the surrender vote fail, why do you think i would play if i could get spawn killed for 5 min by their 10-0 pl

does anyone know if kuro charm and bell stack?

Lads, why can I perfectly deflect, and Mikiri counter 90% of the time but somehow always fail to punish sweep attacks and get hit by them half the time? Do I have brain damage?

well if you're down 0-20 the game will be over soon anyway.

jump

I know what I'm supposed to do, it's just that I either always jump away or don't react in time like a fucking retard.

>
I literally failed a surrender vote with a 22-1 score at 15 and the game dragged out 10 more mins

>I either always jump away
Ah, you're one of those people who always fail to lightning counter, right?

Then you have brain damage.

Some shitter beating Ninja Gaiden on ninja dog doesn't make Master Ninja Mode any less than an achievement to beat. Why is this even a talked about controversy?

I almost gave up on Genichirohmygodfuckofffaggot but I kept trying here and there for an entire week until I beat him tonight and let me tell you that feeling of satisfaction is unparalleled when it comes to any irl activity
Fuck scrubs, git gud niggas, it's worth it

I have to fight my instinct to dodge away from the lightning but no, I surprisingly don't fail it very often.

Funnily enough, you are already technically playing the game on easy mode on the first run through. If the base game had like 50% bleed through guarding, I imagine even more players would be throwing their controllers.

Genichiro, Way of Jobber is THE most basic and easiest boss. he's basically testing your basic mechanic understanding. If you're struggling to beat him then you haven't understood the combat mechanics yet. once you understand, you will NEVER lose against that piece of shit jobber.

The same people who want easy mode for dark souls are the same people who cried about ninja dog mode in NG being patronizing.

>jobbing to Genchiro
The path ahead is thorny.

uh, what the fuck do you expect? 99% of the grabs in this game almost one hit you, and thats in the FIRST playthrough.

Same, think it's a result of being over-active. The game really rewards deliberate inputs over spaziness. Also some sweep tells are kind of bullshit like Ogre's grab.

I let Emma grab me on purpose

I swear that the Ogre is the most fucked up boss with fucked up hitbox.

What is jobbing?

Who gives a shit, it existing or not existing doesn't change the fact that anyone who doesn't play on the hard mode is a shitter casual. Give it to them or don't, but maybe add a proper hard mode for people who aren't casuals.

Do the firecrackers really trivialize every boss in the game? I assumed that surely they wouldn't be worth using on Demon, Isshin, or Owl 2

jobber = characters that are implied to be very strong but always lose important fights
e.g. vegeta

They're not asking for a hard mode. The whole point of this controversy is to make games easier for casuals to play. Well that and attention whoring for clicks.

not sure about demon but firecrackers stun every human in the game

i could understand beasts, but they really shouldn't be that effective on people.

I believe it started as a term for heel wrestlers who get hyped up only to intentionally lose because it's their job to lose.
How come I only see journalists clamoring for an easy mode without also saying they should add in harder modes for games, particularly easy games that have the potential for depth and challenge

No they trivialize some of them, for the most part they just let you do free damage though which does work on Owl and Isshin

Oh, I thought it meant like getting worked like a job or something
What a stupid term lol, my main character is a fucking jobber in that case lol

You randomly brought up being bullied at school and used it as insult. You are projecting.

Really weird how these seasoned master-class veterans get stunned because they've pooped themselves a little over loud noises.

>hes too shit to be able to come back
>he can only win if his team steamrolls early game
hehe

My point is WHO CARES? So casuals want a casual mode, give it to em, who gives a shit. The same person who complains about it not being there is the same shitter who would've dropped the game. Congrats now they mashed through the game and the devs get another buck. Much like the same idiot who gives a shit that some casual has a baby mode is probably the same shitter who thinks 'normal' makes him some hardcore gamer.

The only thing that could happen here is that some casuals spend money to support the dev you like, why would you even care if you play on the hard modes?

thought about buying it
drama all over easy mode
fuck it, I'll play ss13 for another 3 years

It has a lot less to do with the sound and more to do with the bright flash you aren't expecting right in front of your eyes.

When you don't know its coming, a bright flash in front of your eyes literally paralyzes your nervous system for a moment. Deer in headlights.

Because it wastes dev time on shit that doesn't matter.

It will ruin the whole game because "read the OP"
more people will give up instead of learning and keep trying. more people will not get the intended experience.

That's a big nope from me mate. If i buy the game i deserve to be catered to because if i am not then why would i buy anything? To not enjoy it?

Just use a trainer already come on now.

striving for mediocrity even in downtime is not healthy user

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It provides a fractured collective experience from the community. You might all be faggots but at the very least when I see you beat Sekiro I at least know you played the very same Sekiro that I played.

>enemy leblanc can kill anyone with just q-w
>enemy vayne has botrk-rageblade-boots to your cait ie-t2 boots
>no vision because your support can even walk near bushes or he get 1 shotted
>dw guys we scale *press no to ff*
hehe xd

>The same person who complains about it not being there is the same shitter who would've dropped the game
All the more reason not to give it to them. Casuals who drop the game have already spent money that supports the devs, and casuals aren't deciding whether to spend money on these games based on whether it has easy mode especially when from soft games specifically are marketed because of how "hard" they are.

What makes you think they're going to add hard modes instead of just throwing in easy mode and calling it a day?

Once again, who cares? Lets look at this for a moment, you have a bunch of casual shitters who won't buy the game. Put in an easy mode, they play an give up, wow they wasted money and now the dev has more revenue thus showing the publishers people still want to buy games from said dev. How terrible. These people wouldn't learn to begin with, their experience doesn't matter but the money they give the dev does.

>Because it wastes dev time on shit that doesn't matter.
You can still have a good game with an easy mode in it, ninja gaiden is more complicated and harder than sekiro can even dream of and still managed that.

I don't understand why this is such a point of contention when the only thing that happens is some shit spends money on the game dev you like.

>playing league
>expecting any sort of balance
you already fucked up

If they add a normal health bar the simplicity of the game will be exposed and it will feel boring.
if you can afford to fuck up like 5 times or more without dying. every boss will be easy.

Why does that matter at all to you as a player?

the creators and devs care. they want player to get the intended experience, not the dumbed down ones.

I love interacting with the community and what makes the autistic soulsbourne community so fun is the collective struggle everybody went through. Even if most of them are disgusting cheesers.

>Put in an easy mode, they play an give up, wow they wasted money

This is what already happens without easy mode. Again what makes you think casuals are going to spend more money on games like the ones made by From Soft, games who's appeal is that they're supposedly difficult? You're talking like these games aren't making any money without easy modes, even though souls games sell a shitton and sekiro probably has too.

Ninja Gaiden wasn't ruined by Ninja Dog Mode, far from it but these shitters are not asking for Ninja Dog mode, they literally whined about it in the first place.

Do you think that vitality 17 and attack power 10 are adequate enough for an average player to beat Isshin?

The literal point of the game is to test your reflexes and mastery of combat. The intended experience is in new game plus, not the casual normal mode every youtuber beat on their channel. The intended experience for schmups is a 1 cc but you don't see people around here talking about that either do ya? But now we have people complaining that they might put in a mode to get casuals to give them money? I can't fathom how anyone would care except casuals who want to treat 'normal' as some sekret club. As if there aren't plenty of people who can't beat normal modes in a lot of games.

just dodge that fucking guns and you'll be fine.

This game peaked at like 58k players, they'd only be expanding the player base and giving them more money to produce better games. So who cares?

Give em an easy mode but its story only ends halfway trough the normal game

Back when Demon Souls first released a big part of it for a lot of players was the community sharing info with each other and mapping out the game, the same thing happened when Dark Souls 1 was new. You have to be pretty ignorant about the history of these games not to realize the community played a big part in their popularity.

>easy mode locked to shura ending

>they'd only be expanding the player base and giving them more money to produce better games.
When has catering to casuals ever resulted in relatively niche games becoming better and not the exact opposite happening. The whole MORE ACCESSIBLE = MORE MONEY + BETTER GAMES has always been a fallacy.

>This game peaked at like 58k players
gamerevolution.com/news/514301-sekiro-shadows-die-twice-player-count-steam

This is just the PC version.

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Neat, was also wondering if Ashina Cross is anything other than useless against him because I feel like that's the most fitting combat art to use in this fight.

Fromsoft can not fix sekiro for the people who are having trouble with it. They painted themselfs in a corner.

I installed a trainer on pc to figure out how they could do this but the problem is the combat itself.

Giving more health, or more posture can not fix it.

Guys! please play Ys8 and play it on Nightmare difficulty!

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You can still have that with difficulty modes, DMC threads right now are a perfect example of this. The players that seek challenge will continue to do so despite some casual who only played on devil hunter. They filter those fuckers out and tell them to get gud and get on DMD mode. Its the exact same thing and it works/has worked since contra and ghost n' goblins was a thing. In fact for the most part casuals are too scatterbrained and go onto other games without engaging in said conversations, leaving those who seek challenges to talk about what they enjoy.

there is nothing to "fix" tho

Demon of DaS2 Hitboxes says otherwise. From hasn't had hitboxes this bad since defiled hotdog in BB.

most "flashy" skill are useless. In the end it's about parry rhythm game and being fast paced and aggressive.

I wasn't arguing over difficulty modes, just pointing out that asking why the community matters to players is kind of a dumb statement in the context of From Soft games.

>nuYs made for babies
Nah

>Its the exact same thing and it works/has worked since contra and ghost n' goblins was a thing
Are you talking about cheats? Cause I don't remember those games having easy mode.

I think they will know how well the dlc sells if there is something to fix or not

Flash guards and moves are more fun than parry shit.

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From already added an easy mode.

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What I'm saying is that difficulty modes and having an easy mode has never stopped communities from talking and engaging about the difficulty of the game. Do you think other action games even bother discussing the easy mode of their games when talking mechanics and strategies? You're acting like these things go away when its historically been proven that having accessible difficulty modes doesn't stop this from happening.

The bigger argument is why mess with the brand? You already have an extremely hardcore and very large fanbase backing you up. No need to shake things up for just a few more bucks.

that's what I want, I'm that kind of gamer. Although I finished Sekiro (NG and NG+) without any difficulty except maybe Demon of Hatred, I'm extremely frustrated when I play strategy games or fighting games and I wish developpers made them more rewarding to play. I don't think they should simplify the mechanics or anything but they should make them enjoyable even if you don't want to spend hundreds of hours on them like an autist. None of that applies to Sekiro though.

You're conflating two different posts with one another. My post was about how the Souls community matters to players, the other post isn't talking about community at all.

Fair but shattered soldier is the hardest one in the series yet still has difficulty modes. And the majority of people who played it never beat it despite it being a fantastic game.

is it even possible to lose against Gen-chan?

God fuck I just want to get my ass railed by the Tomoe dlc already. Come on Miyazaki.

Fighting games are more reality check than power fantasy. The reward from playing competitive games comes from examining your own play and story mode doesn't engage players that are already invested. Extrinsic rewards like dailies may aid retention but not necessarily accessibility, and can make your game feel not confident, damage players motivation, etc.

Assistsd execution modes and auto combos are the go-to solves right now. They're like training wheels. people avoid them even when you should use them. They're also weird because they don't really lead to deeper understanding of the game and can clue opponent into your newness.

They would eventually make an insufferable hard mode that increases enemy health and damage and everyone on Yea Forums would call people casuals for not playing it.

They should do easy mode like they did in the dlc for LISA

>tfw Tomoe is a blue haired sword autist

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>her hair becomes a lightning white during the second phase

I'm not really all that involved in communities for action games but I will say sometimes for strategy games I see easy mode players try to post about mechanics and strategies and clash with people playing on harder difficulties. It doesn't ruin discussion of the game but it is kind of annoying.

there's already a way to increase enemy damage and health and it's called the demon bell.

This is the entire crux of the conversation, because Souls games are not hardcore. Souls fans want to think they're hardcore for playing it on normal, they are victims of a marketing campaign that wants to tell players that they are hardcore for doing the bare mininum in a game. You can find objective statistics that show in games that have difficulty and challenges that far outpace anything souls games can throw at you the amount of people who have completed those hard modes is abyssmal. Even something like bayonetta which has massive marketing appeal only has .5% of players actually finishing non-stop infinite climax. Why is that? If souls players are so hardcore and love challenges why hasn't the industry buckled from the demand of hardcore games then? Probably because they aren't hardcore, just victims of a marketing scheme in a growing gaming space that sold them the idea that these games are hardcore shit. And these players will call other contrarians, liars, filtered, cucks, whatever to defend some game that really wasn't even harder than most classic dungeon crawlers that didn't hold your hand.

I love the souls games but i'm not a zoomer and I know that for all the 'intended experience' and 'artistic merit' people spout out its really just player egos being talked about here. And if you gave a damn about hard modes and challenges nothing about some journalist difficulty would bother you, because you'd be too busy mastering the game.

Didn't Nier sort of do this with very hard mode where you die in one hit

People do the same thing in souls threads and are told to git gud, same goes for any other game that pertains to skill.

Yeah, the best way how not to do difficulty.

>I know that for all the 'intended experience' and 'artistic merit' people spout out its really just player egos being talked about here.

Maybe From has been trying to make easy games this whole time but just keep fucking it up I mean who can really say?

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What I'm taking about doesn't happen in Souls threads because the game doesn't have difficulty settings.

>missing the point, the post
okay then.

Nobody missed your point, it just wasn't a good one.

For series that so bare minimum and not hardcore its odd that literally every time a new one comes out there's always a shitstorm whether it needs to have an easy mode, not just from journalists either. The fact that the vast majority of people do not beat games on the hardest difficulty isn't exactly news either. I don't think anyone has convinced themselves that hardcore games isn't relatively niche compared to the rest of the industry which already caters to casual players, which makes the instance that every game have easy mode even dumber than it already is.

Games shouldn't be made to cater to everyone because different people have different tastes. If every game was made to cater to everyone they would just end up as bland messes.

Gone Home and Gran Turismo don't appeal to me in the slightest, and that's okay. They weren't designed for me, but there are people out there who enjoy them. Likewise, I like lots of games that don't appeal to a very wide audience, and I would be upset if they were simplified or changed to be more appealing to people who arent interested otherwise.

every single one of Rance games are far harder than From games.

>Even something like bayonetta which has massive marketing appeal only has .5% of players actually finishing non-stop infinite climax
Sure but that's not the "normal" mode. Most people will pick "normal" 10 times out of 10. I bet you the number of people who beat it on normal is much higher.

You response is more or less proving my point right. The point is that souls games have difficulty but are not the most difficult game in existence. Historically challenges in gaming have gone down and gotten lazier due to the lack of want for challenge modes to test player skill. Despite being somewhat difficult there are far more difficult games than dark souls that have fallen to the wayside despite giving said challenge. Ninja gaiden to Nioh is the perfect example of this. Because soulsfags want to put a middling difficulty game on a pedestal because they bought into marketing of it. It is the equivalent of TBS shows codifying nerd culture only in this case its publishers fellating people's egos for doing the bare minimum of a game.

>oh man you beat dark souls thats sucha hardcore game! Oh man you are so hardcore for doing normal mode o gee!

You're welcome to give me an actual rebuttal now.

>Saying my point isn't good proves my point is right
Hilarious logic there.

>The point is that souls games have difficulty but are not the most difficult game in existence.
That's not what the actual point of your post was and nobody was arguing that to begin with. It's just an empty rant about how soulsfags are ridiculous for liking a game for not having difficulty modes because you have some irrational grudge against them.

You want a rebuttal but you can't even provide a real argument without resorting to I AM SILLY strawmen.

Thats the point, the definitive way to play bayonetta is on Non stop infinite climax. Yet with the bustling amount of 'hardcore' challenge seekers in the gaming space only .5% have beaten the game on its intended mode. Action games like sekiro are made to test player skill, the final difficulty is made to push players to the limit of this skill ceiling and show their mastery of it.

Playing on normal doesn't matter, but souls marketing wants people to think that because the bar has been so lowered in games people struggle with basic shit.

>but are not the most difficult game in existence
Who on earth other than facebook casuals ever claimed they were?
And what IS the hardest single player game ever? Games like Battle Toads and Ninja Gaiden are known for being hard, but theyre really not that much more of a challenge than Souls.

Surely the hardest game ever is just some kaizo mario romhack where every jump needs to be pixel perfect.

>Thats the point, the definitive way to play bayonetta is on Non stop infinite climax.

If that's the case then why isn't the default mode? And if playing on normal doesn't matter then why are you harping on people for not playing on the hardest difficulty?

>the definitive way to play bayonetta is on Non stop infinite climax
Should have called it "normal" then. I, and many other people, primariy choose the "normal" difficulty when its offered because "normal" implies that it is the intended difficulty that the game was balanced around. Hard modes often just have bloated health and attack values with no difference in enemy layout/strategy. I only ever choose hard mode if I have heard in advance that the game is exceedingly easy on normal, or if it's a series that I am very accustomed with already.

>people treat this game as a pedestal because they bought into marketing and will come up with mental gymnastics to defend doing the bare minimum in an action game.
>Difficulty modes more or less easy ones don't take away any achievement from beating the game on the true test of combat.
your response:
>you're just arguing about people liking the game (which I never brought up) and just have a grudge against them
>aka a bunch of useless posturing because you couldn't understand my point and are strawmanning me.
You're an idiot with no reading comprehension, thus proving my point right.

>Do you think other action games even bother discussing the easy mode of their games when talking mechanics and strategies?
Yeah actually, how many people do you think touched DMD in DMC? There's people criticizing Bayonetta 1 for witch time too lol

Because it's too hard for shitters and they'd never finish it? That should be obvious.

>>you're just arguing about people liking the game (which I never brought up)
"people treat this game as a pedestal because they bought into marketing and will come up with mental gymnastics to defend doing the bare minimum in an action game. " is not you bringing up why they like it?

>>aka a bunch of useless posturing because you couldn't understand my point and are strawmanning me.
>You're an idiot with no reading comprehension
This applies to you more than it does to me, I mean you literally posted a greentext strawmen earlier.

Nobody is proving your point, stop pretending you're misunderstood. You're just making an ass out of yourself and robbing any credibility your point might have had.

An easy mode would be perfectly fine if it was dubbed "easy" and the current one was "normal". I respect the developers decision to only include one difficulty setting though. If that's how they want their game to be experienced then that's how it should be.

Ironically the journalists who cry about no difficulty options are the same people who write articles complaining about how games arent appreciated as art. You cant demand that art be made more "accessible" to you.

So what youre saying is that they compromised their vision in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator, unlike based From who just made the game they wanted and didnt give a shit whether casuals would play it or not.

Who gives a fuck about artistic vision? That's fucking gay desu, this is the kind of retarded mindset that stops FROM from including actual hard modes not locked away behind repeated playthroughs, and boss rush modes. Games as art is pure cancer

One of the first articles was that Sekiro needs to 'respect' its players by adding an easy mode, when in reality it's being far more respectful by trusting its players to get good enough to beat it as-is

>Games as art is pure cancer
no u

So what? That's not a good reason not to make it the default mode if it's the definitive way to play Bayonetta like you say. Especially if there is already an easy mode.

Because it is the inherent part of the genre of action games. These games or rather Godhand, Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Bayonetta, etc are made to test players reaction time and mastery of mechanics. Case and point I will describe to you the final fight in DMC5:

The final fight in DMC5 on devil hunter is nero vs vergil and is incredibly easy. This is made possible by giving the player devil trigger regen which in turn enables them to regen health faster than a player normally would. This is because they just introduced the devil bringer, a tool that can disrupt,combo into, and grab enemies, and your DT itself. A mode that unlocks special moves techniques etc. This entire fight is meant to be an experiment round to enable the player to try out the new tools. Because the next run (difficulty) they take this away, change every enemy encounter into having more/harder enemies and you get to keep everything you learned from previous runs.

The game is leading you into the next difficulty because that is the next step in mastering the combat which is the objective of the game. Which is why each difficulty has vastly different mechanics/encounters to test your skill of the game. So when the player gets to Hell mode they should understand the game thoroughly and thus can use its complex combat systems to the fullest. That is how the genre works and why adding an easy mode and playing on normal means nothing. If the point is to master the combat system playing on the beginning mode isn't the final test of those mechanics. This isn't even me trying to me an asshole, I love this genre and wish more people would play it. But around here the basic understanding of how it works is beyond terrible.

>implying From games don't already have ways for players to adjust the difficulty without explicit modes

If anything the inability to recognize this is the kind of retarded mindset that fuels the idea FROM needs to put in easy mode.

Liking the game isn't the same thing as putting it on a pedestal and pretending its the greatest thing ever. Are you really asking that moronic of a question? The answer is yes.

Wrong. Do you honestly enjoy slogging through Sekiro's braindead levels just to fight the pretty fun boss fights? Do you enjoy that kuro's bracelet is tucked away from the player initially until they don't even really need it since unless they used scrub strats they'll have learnt all the boss moves? Or how about NG+ that's trivialized by you having so much health and a fully upgraded moveset? All because what, it'd feel too "gamey" to JUST have difficulty modes and boss rush in the menu instead of having it be some dumb item, shrine or bell or whatever. Dumb.

What you mean shit like the bell and covenant of champs? Get real those are no replacements for actual mechanics changes or new movesets, Kuro's charm is something that would be good in a hard mode and feels like what the game was designed to be like, but you can't even use it. Or do you mean the self imposed stuff that's in every game? Yeah guys you can play Kirby with your feet see it's ORGANIC DIFFICULTY!

>Case and point

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Why is it specifically From games that spawn this discussion? I'm too much of a retard to ever play/enjoy The Witness but I didn't see 50 articles about that game.

People who "put it on a pedestal" and "pretend its the greatest thing ever" probably like the game. But I'm not surprised you're clinging unto that moronic strawman

For some reason puzzle games get a pass.

What are you talking about, it's a compromise that the genre needs to survive in an industry that mostly abandoned that style of gameplay. There's a reason arcade and arcade style games completely died out, they didn't make such compromises for accessibility and now they eat shit as a result. Games like Bayo compromise difficulty to let scrubs mash their way to the credits and get a ton of praise and extra sales because of it, all while still actually having substantial modes that are there for the real fans

>actual mechanics changes or new movesets
What does hard mode have anything to do with either of those.

They already solved the difficulty problem elegantly in the souls games with diverse builds and leveling up, obscured randomness, lore based easier strategies, limited multiplayer summoning, etc. The fact that you equate this to dumb shit like playing kirby with your feet means theres no getting through to you. God do I even bother

>Once again I offer no argument and will prove that I lack reading comprehension
Well okay then.

because whining about sekiro being too hard makes you seem vulnerable and "compassionate" for embracing that while whining about puzzle games would make you seem like a dumb chad which is the last thing they want. resetera calls people ableist for being against easy modes and then also has 20 page threads shitting on people who are poor at math

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>They already solved the difficulty problem elegantly in the souls games with diverse builds and leveling up
That's not a solution, that's arbitrary self imposed challenges not enforced by the game itself, you can do this in literally any game even the most shallow ones. If the playing with your feet example bothers you because it's outside the scope of the game then simply replace it with something like no power up run, no flight, no healing, whatever comes to mind. There's a reason difficulty modes are preferable to that, because it has always and will always feel arbitrary and is just an extra bonus for those who have already mastered the difficulty modes. Souls' particular take on it is stupid too, it's all about different variables for the player but pretty much nothing about the bosses changes. Once you do a SL1 run you can do any legit build completely effortlessly because it's all the same thing

What are YOU talking about? Arcades died out because of the logistics and culture that couldn't compete with console, and arcade style games are still around on every platform especially mobile, arcades might be gone but the style of games are still around are you fucking high?

Anyway It's not a compromise that the genre needs at all, especially if there is already an easy mode for players who can't handle the definitive way of playing the game.

>diverse builds and leveling up, obscured randomness, summons
>that's arbitrary self imposed challenges not enforced by the game itself

I'm sorry you have shit for brains. I'm out.

if you can't beat a boss decreased damage does not help it takes just more for the boss to kill you.

infinite resurrection would not even be a game.

first because you will never trigger important story elements like dragon rot and would not even understand what's the fucking point of immortality severance.
second because you can just slowly poke at the boss health and after 1 hour or more you would win.
it would not even qualify as a game.

Quality rebuttal coming from the same idiot who cried about posturing and being strawmanned earlier.

>implying souls is hard

>and arcade style games are still around on every platform especially mobile, arcades might be gone but the style of games are still around are you fucking high?

What the fuck are you talking about? Mobile gaming is a direct continuation of the trends that started with the popularization of console/PC, it resembles arcades only on the most surface level. Mobile gaming in its current form would not be possible on arcades because the whole monetization model was tied to challenge and competition and there was no progress saved between sessions beyond scores, mobile games replace that with timesink style games all about an extremely slow drip of progression which encourages players to pay up and speed it up. Beyond that arcade style games on console and PC are dead, even extremely high quality releases like Strania get completely overlooked, even Dunkey's bump of ZeroRanger got it fuck all sales. You have no clue dude.

>easy mode

Easy modes are avoided even by people who are shit enough to need them, that's why normal modes tend to be so braindead these days.

A fundamental problem with difficulty options in games is that there are many players between obvious skill levels. This means:

>You have to immediately make an important decision without adequate knowledge.
>You will continue to question that decision during play.

Players know that difficulty levels in the genre are often tacked on, regardless of the game's budget, exacerbating the anxiety of whether they chose the "right" one. This breaks immersion pretty hard. Gentle reminders about easier difficulty settings after Game Over don't help.

In many ways, interactivity (audience control) and art (creator's vision) simply don't mix well, and game designers have become very creative about band-aiding the bad parts. We've gotten used to tutorials and difficulty settings and such even though they're less than ideal.

Regarding From Software games specifically, I think most solutions would be too blunt and would cause many "in-between" players to miss the point of the games. Miyazaki has likened them to a stew, slowly cooking. If you're impatient about beating them, you will probably be dissapointed. It really is more about the journey than the destination.

The other thing that fans love about FromSoft games is their interconnectedness. Not only in terms of the level design, but also the way death/rebirth are built into the game world. So it feels like any kind of Easy Mode would need to be built into it, as well. The idea that fans are only interested about about virtue signaling how difficult the games is a pretty shortsighted way of looking at the pushback against easy mode.

Imagine being disabled at video games. Fuck niggers who want participation trophies just because a game is popular. Bandwagoners should be shot on sight.

Yeah? Different more challenging builds solely for the purpose of difficulty is self imposed challenge. Not using summons is also a self imposed challenge as long as you know about them, but the summons are so poorly implemented and broken that it became the norm. Sort of how savescumming is looked down on in PC games

By this logic playing the game on any difficulty above easy is an arbitrary self imposed challenge since you're intentionally not taking the path of least residence despite knowing about those options.

Don't be an idiot, there's a huge difference between picking a discrete difficulty mode that shapes the whole game and not using a certain ingame mechanic even though there's no ingame reason to avoid it. In fact with things like summoning you actively miss out on aspects of the game if you avoid it, and things like a SL1 run makes practically every piece of gear useless. The game doesn't even have SCORE like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta do which would encourage you to play without crutches, there is nothing to structure your play at all, it's all arbitrary on your part.

>Mobile gaming is a direct continuation of the trends that started with the popularization of console/PC, it resembles arcades only on the most surface level.
That's not even remotely true at all. If you really don't see the connection between arcade style gameplay and mobile gaming then you really have no clue. Those timesink games you mentioned are popular but not even close to the only games on mobile or even the majority of them.

Arcade style games are "dead" if you compare them to AAA hypermarketed games, in the same way fighting games are "dead".

What you mean the mobile shmups and such that use that skin to create yet another timesink progression shitshow where your score depends on how much resources you dumped into upgrading your characters and buying extra lives/bombs rather than improvement in skill? Nonsense. And no, they're not dead like fighting games are dead, they are completely obscure with every single notable company being dead or worse, being kept alive by indies mostly one man projects that still sell poorly and ports of decades old games.

>there's a huge difference between picking a discrete difficulty mode that shapes the whole game and not using a certain ingame mechanic
Not really, especially when you arbitrarily decide those mechanics that allow you to adjust your difficulty without modes are "self imposed challanges" which is idiotic in of itself. Arbitrarily deciding that summoning is some integral aspect of the game doens't mean you're missing out by not using it. Also don't pretend hard mode wouldn't trivialize the vast majority of gear either. Not every single action needs scoring to goad the player into playing a certain way or provide structure, scoring that most players don't care about, and FROM games prove it.

I'm not defending the monetization model on mobile, it's shit but the notion that arcade style gameplay completely died out is a complete fallacy. And games being more obscure than relatively popular games like DMC and Souls does not mean they are dead, there are a fuckton of arcade style games releasing over the years even if most people haven't heard of them.

>Arbitrarily deciding that summoning is some integral aspect of the game doens't mean you're missing out by not using it.
No, entire game mechanics completely lose their importance if you don't summon, there are covenants dedicated to it with their own items and rankings, restoring humanity loses its benefits and only comes with cons, etc. It's not me "arbitrarily deciding" it, it's simply a fact. The only thing in the entire game that indicates that you shouldn't summon is how badly implemented the whole system is, how it breaks bosses and what not. But that's easily chalked up to FROM's incompetence, which isn't unusual. Ultimately none of this is different from avoiding using certain weapons, moves and tactics in other games, games that still have actual difficulty modes.

>because it has always and will always feel arbitrary and is just an extra bonus
That's how difficulty modes feel in most games too. Your average hard mode boss doesn't have meaningful changes outside of HP/damage buffs. Some games put more thought into hard mode than that but they are few and far between since your average player isn't going to bother with anything but normal difficulty.

>they didn't make such compromises for accessibility and now they eat shit as a result
Sounds like gay bullshit.

>Ultimately none of this is different from avoiding using certain weapons, moves and tactics in other game
Then neither is avoiding the easiest difficulty. It's objectively, demonstrably a self imposed challenge to play on harder settings.

Well at what point can I say it died out by your standards? Because right now the arcade style games being produced are made by basically boomer arcade fans, people who grew up with them and have an attachment to that style of gameplay. They aren't just obscure in comparison to DMC and Souls, they're obscure when compared to indie titles of equivalent quality and budget. Once the remaining devs too old for the gaming industry it's game over for good, as nothing can draw in new blood. For these kinds of things to work in the modern landscape you need very heavy compromises, which games like DMC and Bayonetta are.

Stop playing triple A western games, or non indie western games in general desu

Do you think DMC and Bayonetta is representative of your average difficulty setting implementations? Because I'm assuming thats where your basing your entire perspective off of.

...

I would actually enjoy other games more if they had an easy mode that also didn't lock me out of content or patronize me because I literally can't get any better no matter how hard I try or anything. I actually have issues with processing speed where I'm unable to react fast enough for anything and it affects all areas of my life including vidya. There's only a few games where I'm able to play with no problem like Animal Crossing but it gets very boring after a while due to being limited to playing games that work with me. Also fuck off with the whole "go watch it on YouTube" bullshit. One, I want to be able to play it myself instead of watching others have fun with it. Second of all, oftentimes the pacing of other people playing games makes it difficult for me to follow along so I have to rewatch a part they did a few times to understand what just happened.

If your idea of average is big budget western games then no, otherwise yes I'd have a harder time naming smaller budget or jap games with difficulty choices that don't alter games beyond just stat boosts. Hell, difficulty settings adjusting things like AI aggressiveness used to be near universal.

Don't be so dense, you know very well what the difference is. One is a structured ruleset provided to you by the dev, making it non-arbitrary even if the initial act of picking which difficulty is up to the player. The latter is an unstructured mess with non existent punishments or rewards, you can do whatever whenever with no indication of whether you're taking the easy path or rewards for challenging yourself. You can of course deny that such psychological aspects matter in games to continue your quest to make two seem equivalent but that's just downright foolish, of course they matter.

Some big budget western games used to do that too but advancement on game AI development has screeched to a halt so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

That cripple guy actually posted himself beating the game recently. They're really just full of shit and using disabilities to cover for their own laziness. If they cared that much, they could just cheat but they wanted something easy to write about for attention.

I'm not being any more dense than you are right now. You refuse to accept any ruleset or mechanics that can be used by the player to adjust difficulty as non-arbitrary unless they come in the form of explicit difficulty settings, which makes no sense. If anyone is being downright foolish about this its you.

Literally nothing you said is even remotely true at all. Mobile is flooded with games with arcade style gameplay, even if a lot of them have p2w shit monetization, and there are still games with arcade style gameplay on PC and console. Conflating arcade style games with exclusively shmups or discounting indies doesn't change that fact. The notion that arcades and arcade games died out because of the game's design being inaccessible and not making enough compromises for casual players is flat out bullshit. Full stop.

>You refuse to accept any ruleset or mechanics that can be used by the player to adjust difficulty as non-arbitrary unless they come in the form of explicit difficulty settings, which makes no sense.

No I refuse to accept what you've listed as non-arbitrary because it is highly arbitrary. Games can have baked in difficulty choices, as long as they're actually properly incentivized and acknowledged. Curse of the Moon does this well for its few playstyles. And obviously scoring based games do it even better.

This

What is "arcade style gameplay" to you? Just borrowing shmups, beat em ups, or run n guns mechanics? Because that's not what it is at all, those things can exist using a PC or console format. Arcade style gameplay means a few things, mainly that it aims to challenge the player (to earn money), is short and simple, is 100% skill based with no progression or bonuses outside of extra tries and has a significant aspect of score based competition. Shit like mobile games borrow some aspects of this mainly being short & simple but not the others.

>I refuse to accept what you've listed as non-arbitrary because it is highly arbitrary.

No it isn't. Game mechanics and systems like leveling, builds, routing etc that let players naturally adapt difficulty is no more arbitrary than easy and hard modes.

>Games can have baked in difficulty choices, as long as they're actually properly incentivized and acknowledged.

In other words they can't be baked in. Any difficulty choice that isn't explicitly labeled and doesn't have scoring metric is invalid and highly arbitrary.

One of the nice things about fixed difficulty, besides what myiazaki said, is that a tough enemy truly feels like one.
Let's say Sekiro had an easy mode, and I got stuck against Genichiro. Even if I didn't end up using easy mode, I would feel much safer, knowing that I have a safety net, and I could destroy him if I wanted to.
The very existence of easy mode removes the idea of an antagonist being threatening. The game isn't challenging you, you're challenging yourself. That may be fine for some people, but it's not the experience I seek.

>Game mechanics and systems like leveling, builds, routing etc that let players naturally adapt difficulty is no more arbitrary than easy and hard modes.

Holy yikes, do you seriously not understand that this train of thought makes things like speedruns not any less arbitrary than legit hard modes? Nobody actually thinks this, I doubt even you think this.

>Any difficulty choice that isn't explicitly labeled and doesn't have scoring metric is invalid and highly arbitrary.

Cute theory but Curse of the Moon doesn't label its "soft" difficulty choices, nor does it have a scoring metric. Retard lol

Virtually all styles of gameplay can exist using PC or consoles with few exceptions, it's completely irrelevant to whether a title has arcade style gameplay.

Arcade style mobile games have basically all the aspects you listed, with the closest meaningful exception being that the monetization mile perverts the skill based gameplay. Progression and bonuses aren't mutually exclusive from arcade game design.

niggas complaining about this game's difficulty should watch either a tutorial or one of the people speedrunning the game on twitch, nowadays these faggots are so lazy they can't even bother to learn from their mistakes and actually improve so they can progress

>with no progression

Attached: outrun_3.jpg (640x448, 114K)

You are just proving my point with this post. Literally anything short of explicitly labeled difficulty options is completely arbitrary and invalid for the player to adjust the games difficulty through systems and mechanics.

>Cute theory but Curse of the Moon doesn't label its "soft" difficulty choices, nor does it have a scoring metric. Retard lol
Devour dick my dude.

Yes they are, arcade games could not have progression or bonuses due to their nature, the very few games that tried to incorporate some of that shit were completely rejected immediately, like Double Dragon 3. The presence of progression and bonuses earned between sessions also shifts the whole focus away from improving skill and competition. It's the most important aspect and dictated nearly every other aspect of arcade games. If they had progression from the get-go they wouldn't even need to be particularly challenging, or deep, or have much competition. They could keep people coming back for daily rewards and incremental stat improvements, like mobile games do now.

Forgot my image

Attached: difficulty.png (1236x608, 182K)

Again just about everything you said is flat out false. You're conflating progression with saving in between multiple game sessions, which still is mutually exclusive from core arcade gameplay. Your example while a bad game in of itself doesn't disqualify it from being an arcade style game.

That's per session progression that gets reset if you game over or get an ending, not progression that carries over between session. The former's arcade friendly, the latter is anything but. If Outrun had the progression I'm talking about you'd be replaying the early routes over and over to unlock later ones all while upgrading and customizing your car so that the timer will never be a problem.

It's still progression. Stop trying to play semantics.

from doesnt even address issues from the actual people that play their games
they're not going to give a shit about a bunch of twitterlords filling their diapers

First off arbitrary =/= invalid
Second off there's a reason I said "soft" difficulty choices (aka choosing partners or going Zangetsu solo either with or without upgrades), to distinguish them from the actual difficulty choices you linked. If you don't know what I'm talking about don't bother trying to go for a gotcha you dipshit.

You fucking retards been crying for ez mode since DeS. What the fuck is the point? You're not gonna get one ever at this point.
Shut the fuck up.

Double Dragon 3 only had bonuses though, it didn't have progression saved between sessions. And I dunno, can it really be called arcade-style if it goes against the core principle of arcade games, ones seen in pretty much every relevant arcade game? Nowadays you have literal phone games played in cabs, I wouldn't call that arcade style games though because the core design isn't there. The dare I say it, soul.
You're the one trying to play semantics when what I'm talking about is very clear in context, I even explained it and its importance to directly. Call it whatever you want if you don't like me using the word progression, doesn't matter to me.

there was a simplified and faster to learn fighting game, but it lost popularity within 2 weeks of coming out.

And it's because you can make it as easy or accessible as you want, but fundamentals still apply and you will always get btfo by someone who learned more.
Fighting games are something you learn, like an instrument or movement in general or strategy. There are no shortcuts and you can't design a fighting game with shortcuts due to their nature.
Even in a meme game like Divekick, someone comptetent at fightan will beat you. There is no way around this fact

>First off arbitrary =/= invalid
I'm sure you're not just calling it arbitrary to suggest its an invalid and inferior way of managing difficulty compared to explicit, categorized options that change difficulty. Come the fuck on.
>aka choosing partners or going Zangetsu solo either with or without upgrades
How is this any different than choosing your starting class? Even your "Soft" difficulty has to be explicitly categorized option that the player chooses outside of system mechanics. If you're gonna get mad at gotchas then stop posting examples that hurt your argument, all of which have literal difficulty settings.

No, you decided to play semantics and change context once people started pointing out examples of progression in arcade games.

>And I dunno, can it really be called arcade-style if it goes against the core principle of arcade games
It does no such thing. You personally deciding that games that have bonuses and carry over progression (even while citing actual arcade games with bonuses) doesn't mean they don't have arcade-style gameplay or "go against the core principles" or whatever the fuck. Most of the phone games converted to cabs I see nowadays are just rhythm games, do those not have real arcade gmplay now to? Do rhythm games not have the "core" or the "soul" of arcade style gameplay because they use unconventional inputs?

>oneshotted
Did you do all your arts and crafts in the first playthrough?
I can just barely survive it with all 10 prayer beads

>journos use disabled people as a crutch
>disabled guy proves them wrong
>journos whine about how the alt-reich is using disabled people as a crutch

haha

I never changed the context, if it wasn't clear what I meant by progression my bad but does it matter now? I've explained exactly what I meant and its role the whole mobile vs arcade design mentality discussion, you can use any word you feel like.

It's not me "just deciding it", it's me observing the common features of arcade games and seeing how those features influenced their design. From what I can tell your standard is "if it's on a cab it's an arcade game" which is just bullshit, that can be anything even if it's basically a facebook game. And alright to be fair rhythm games are an example of an arcade genre that's still doing ok, and there is the very occasional exception like Danmaku Unlimited which is largely free of the usual mobile mechanics, but as for everything else? Tough luck.

You changed the context because it was clear that the people you were arguing with were not talking exclusively in terms of your specific type of progression and nothing else. You can use whatever word you like, it's still wrong in the end as progression over multiple sessions doesn't mean the arcade design of the rest of the game isn't somehow
non existent. If Outrun let you upgrade your car and carry those customization in between sessions to affect your driving it wouldn't make the driving itself non-arcade.

>If Outrun let you upgrade your car and carry those customization in between sessions to affect your driving it wouldn't make the driving itself non-arcade.
The fuck does that even mean? All your definitions are completely muddled, you're confusing arcade driving physics (as in non-sim) with general arcade style gameplay. Arcade style gameplay is more of a general format or game structure, it says remarkably little about the actual mechanics beyond short sessions, being based around skill and competition in some form. That's how you can have Outrun with its unrealistic physics, and F355 which aims to be a sim under the same general label.

>From what I can tell your standard is "if it's on a cab it's an arcade game" which is just bullshit
Nah, thats just your own strawman. If I was arguing that Counterstrike in an arcade cabinet made it an arcade-style game you might have had a point, but you don't. If anything you're ignoring common design aspects of gameplay in arcade games because of tertiary features in newer games that may or may not impact the games balancing, does not dramatically change the gameplay from a genre standpoint.

That's because I'm not talking about the genre, why would I be? There are arcade games of just about every genre. It's like the distinction between console and PC style RPG, both are RPG's but due to the hardware and business model pressures they've developed differently which has an impact on their gameplay. Same with arcade. You can have arcade, console or mobile racers with Outrun's mechanics and branching levels, the difference will be the overall game structure, its various systems and where the focus lies. If it's a mobile game then the focus will be on shit like upgrades, which changes the nature of the game even if the mechanics are the same. Is this really difficult to understand?