Sekiro is proof that the ARPG meme is hurting video games

Nah it was fun there being a good chance that the loot you see in the distance being another armor piece and not being spoiled on what armor there is in the game made it even more fun to explore. Also every item has a description if you care for lore etc. This is all just completely absent from Sekiro while From's level design has not changed. So it all looks like there is tons of stuff to find but there is just nothing.

Sekiro has better combat then BB, yes. But the art style, level design, enemy design, boss design, music, etc, are all more polished.

i dont care. gameplay > everything else

It's even worse in Dark Souls 1.
>weapon hit-stun secretly tied to upgrade level and upgrade tree.
>"aww shiet dude lol this scales with my stats lol let's try it out"
>*cant combo or frame trap for shit due to retarded hidden snowflake mechanics*
Dumb design.

There's more to gameplay then combat. Exploration and enemies are much better. There is also more customization and shit is mostly worth picking up and seeking out.
BB has better gameplay even if Sekiro has better combat.
Me:
Gameplay > everything else.
You:
Combat > everything else.

Oh yeah, one more
>Upgrade stones that you don't fucking need -> trash heap.
Like imagine instead of upgrading weapons individually, titanite was rarer and leveled up all of your weapons past and future. Finding, say, green titanite would unlock magic versions of your weapons. You'd get the biggest fucking erection when you found some instead of not caring at all.

The complete package is what makes the gameplay experience. Strip it of all that and you get muted game where you fight waves of enemies through a linear corridor.

Wow, it's almost like different games can have different target audiences

>retarded opinion
>retarded metric system
Checks out.

i dont care. gameplay > everything else

>They have a much greater degree of control and can focus on making a fewer elements as good as they possibly can be.
Or they can just shit the bed with those elements and please nobody like Sekiro did.

?
So you like BB the most? It has better gameplay then Sekiro.

i would have liked Sekiro if it at least it allowed me to make my own character. Good thing Nioh 2 is happening.

If you only care about gameplay, then Niih is better and still keeps the RPG elements.

>please nobody like Sekiro did

t. shitter

sekiros combat is infinitely better than souls

>I care more about my Barbie dolls than good characters.

The fact that it's easier to make a game with only 1 playstyle is obvious. This doesn't excuse shit games with multiple playstyles, nore does it mean a game with RPG elements can't be good. If From make a shit attempt at an ARPG, that's their fault, not the genre.

The average gamer is legit retarded, that's why progression systems will forever be in high demand.

>cut rpg elements from souls game
>end up with sekiro
>have shit game and everyone complains about the lack of rpg elements
>dude what if we removed rpg elements from sekiro

NIGGA WHAT RPG ELEMENTS?

Do I give the crying dude the white pinwheel, or red and white? What's gonna happen here?

Sekiro is better in all those aspects aside from the music. Especially if we compare base Sekiro that will most likely receive Tomoe DLC with the base bloodborne which was miserable in terms of content.
In terms of level and world design Sekiro just destroys the rest of the franchise whatsoever.

he's clearly saying sekiro is better than souls for not having rpg elements.
also obviously people comparing it to souls are going to complain about lack of rpg elements, because everyone is a shitter who would rather make their numbers higher than actually git gud

>White
Fun interaction, trash loot.
>Red & White
Nothing, you can still do white. There are two other questlines for him by sending him to places but it's all just trash loot in the end.

it doesnt matter you get no story or item related content out of it just a few dialogue lines

Get this man a single cubed room and place an enemy spawner in it, STAT! And charge him $60

BB's gameplay is infinitely better than Sekiro's

i just like that defending yourself actually requires some thought rather than just holding down L1 with a big fuck off shield

Sekiro's level design is patently worse thanks to hook.
Sekiro's atmosphere is generic YOOOOOOO. It never gets nearly as weird, or as creepy as BB and walks the same line pretty uniformly.
Sekiro's enemies are flat and boring, even once you get into the yokai stuff, compared to BB.

There's a good chance OP is baiting but I unironically agree. Don't get me wrong, I really do greatly enjoy every ARPG From have put out (apart from DS2), but everything OP said is completely true. Being able to focus building the game around a specific playstyle and weapon without needing to put time and effort into multiplayer and magic and all the RPG elements really did deeping the combat.

That being said, they can still go a lot further with this and refine it. It's not perfect or anything but I like the direction.

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>fly kite
>nothing happens
>sit for 10 minutes

this is gonna do something soon, I can feel it

No.

nothing will happen

>I would've liked it if it let me do some cosmetic shit with zero effect on the gameplay
good thing they didn't give a shit about your retarded ass when they made the game

Sekiro is a very good game and I enjoyed my time with it. But once I beat it I had no desire to replay. I actually just started up Nioh again.

I’ll be interested to see how people’s opinions on Sekiro hold up once the honeymoon phase is over. I’m not suggesting it sucks, but I don’t think it has the same staying power as Soulsborne. Once you get good at the game, you could probably speed through it at breakneck speed, and seeing as how there’s one weapon and one way to play, I can see it getting boring.

At least with Souls I can switch up play styles. “It’s just dodging and R1” is a gross over simplification” idiots say to try to make talk shit.

This.
Everything you find in Sekiro can be useful to you in some way.
In souls games it only has a small chance of being useful.

>Sekiro's level design is patently worse thanks to hook.
it doesn't actually change anything in world design and only adds active verticality which is a nice change. the hook serves as a transition between certain areas just like bridges or tunnels or elevators were used in other games so then they must be shit too, right?

Hook enables a shitload of secrets and alternate pathways. There's so much of them in this game it eclipses anything From previously did. There's two chunks of Fountainhead you will miss by not using the hook, there's huge chunks of Senpou you will miss without hook, hook is the only reason local Anor Londo is so fucking big and detailed. It's one of the reasons this game blows the souls/bb level design the fuck out.
>Sekiro's atmosphere is generic YOOOOOOO
Can someone translate this from degenerative zoomerspeak to normal human language
>Sekiro's enemies are flat and boring, even once you get into the yokai stuff, compared to BB.
Sekiro's okami enemies alone are better than anything in bloodborne, base or with DLC. It has multiple fleshed out enemy fractions all with their theme and unique gameplay mechanics (midgets that have the same vertical mobility as Sekiro himself, villagers popping up from the ground to drag you in, wall sword spirits that pop in and out trying to ambush you, terror enemies that need more skill to beat than winter lanterns, etc) and each individual enemy has at least double the moveset of any bloodborne mook.

come back to it when you've gotten a further in the game and talk to the old lady further on in senpou first and she'll give you a hint if you give her loli rice.

>Can someone translate this from degenerative zoomerspeak to normal human language
Newfag.
youtube.com/watch?v=nkfQP2KeMPo

I have over 1200 hours in dark souls.

I just finished my Sekiro playthrough and there's no reason to ever play it again, clocking at 100 hours.
Multiple weapons and builds make every playthrough more unique and every person will experience something completely different.
While it is true that pure action allowed for more polish, again look back at Bloodborne which is still From's best game, even with a shitty and limiting setting.
What they need is the knights'n'berserk stuff from souls, the few very specialized weapons from BB and the aggressive combat of Sekiro, with a slap of good dash+R1 action and massive bloodsplatters for that satisfying effect.

>i havent played bloodborne
Then you can't opine. You're just making assumptions based on seeing a few stuff but never actually playing the game and feeling the combat by yourself. Go play it and you'll see how a souls game can be done right.

>there is no staying power
that's not necessary a bad thing. Sure I probably won't ever play it for 100 hours but it's still a damn good game.
It's a good single player game like those of the past that doesn't tie your progress with artificial progression like grinding for stats.
It's simple and effective.

Game designer should learn from it and stop shoving lazy RPG mechanics, cosmetic or freemium shit into everything (think about MGS5 with the konami bucks).

I've been in this place longer than you shitstain.
Try to form coherent thoughts next time.

>Sekiro's atmosphere is generic YOOOOOOO.
i don't know what you think feudal japan should look like. explain.

Level design doesn't equal world design.
Sekiro's world design is good, but it's level design is lacking. I'm not surprised, because they probably couldn't figure out how to manage something like the hook.

>Multiple weapons and builds make every playthrough more unique and every person will experience something completely different.
R1R1R1R1dodgeR1R1R1dodgeR1R1R1R1

>go play cinematic 24fps and see for yourself!
lol

>“It’s just dodging and R1”
I legitimately believe this (sans magic builds) which is why I can't understand how people put thousands of hours into these games.

I know this is bait but reading every shitty word you typed made me so angry I literally growled outloud and slammed my fist down on my desk now everyone in my house is worried about me but FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR BAIT U FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT I FUCKING HATE YOU FUCKING ASHSOLE RETARD ASS BITCH!!!!

>casualising the upgrade system
user...

Can you tho

>but it's level design is lacking
how so? it's no different to previous games but with hook points. you're forgetting how simple levels have been in soulsborne

Sekiro is just Nioh-lite.

Sekiro has the best level design out of all From games, retard.

A single fucking monk area is bigger and more detailed than anything in souls games.

Souls fags, ladies and gentlemen. Lmao.

Are you dumb? Picking which weapon to use is the interesting part; upgrading it has zero choices involved.

Do you think they will allow us to make thicc wide hipped, thicc thighs, gigantic ass and omega sized tiddies female samurai?

>I've been in this place longer than you, but I have never once heard the incredibly common complaint of Sengoku Japan being a boring setting, nor have I ever seen an
>X level, X music starts playing
>thread
Sure, pal.

>Sekiro has only one weapon

lol

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What part of "form coherent thoughts" you can't understand you underage dingus?

Why is Nioh so much worse then

>Multiple weapons and builds make every playthrough more unique and every person will experience something completely different.
builds are crap. In the end you always end up with the same builds.

It would be interesting to see different weapons with different play styles but RPG elements only encourage grinding which takes away from individual player skills.

It's obvious to me that Miyazaki wanted to truly make a game where player skills matter and he mostly succeeded with the system he uses in sekiro.

>the lack of options means the game is actually better
The asolute state of fromcucks.
There's literally no reason to not have multiple weapons in sekiro.
They knew their mouthbreather fanbase will eat up whatever they shit out and they went at it with least effort.

>you can't understand you

>one weapon offers the best gameplay because the entire game can be finely balanced around it
sekiro is the biggest redpill

What not even close, most of bb looks the same, after 2 sekiro areas there's already more variety and creativity.

because of loot autism

Yes yes we've seen the other shitty mods like the moonlight greatsword

>Different elements
>Different upgrade material based on those elements
>No choices
It also makes you look like an even bigger faggot when you realize you can upgrade every weapon to 8 or 9, and if you get to that point and you still have so much ADHD you can't decide what weapon to put to +10 then I don't know what to tell you.
>I want EVERY weapon to be powered up at the same time so I can switch to whatever I want!
>Fuck RPG elements I guess
You're the reason games are being dumbed down and you should feel bad.

Nigga fuck you, DaS loot was great
>Weapon that isn't part of your build -> trash heap
And on another run you stick with it for the entire playthrough, welcome to RPGs
>Armor that is objectively worse than other armor -> trash heap
Being "objectively better" than another armor was very rare with all the factors like weight, specific buffs, different defenses for all damage types and poise
>Any spell that that isn't part of your build and even most spells that you could cast but are useless -> trash heap
The only thing I can somewhat agree on, magic was always an afterthought and all spells were either easymode or useless, nothing was balanced
>Consumables that you won't use because they're either garbage or too rare to risk using when you'll probably just die anyway and waste it -> trash heap
All consumables in Dark Souls are useful, and the "item is rare so im never gonna use it lol" mentality is entirely your fault

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Bloodborne only has one different type of combat. Melee.
Magic is useless and barely anyone uses it. There is also less weapons and armor is mostly cosmetic. And no one takes the pvp seriously cause it is a joke.
Bloodborne, if anything, is another proof that the more simple and focus your game is, the better

>literally easiest to find secrets and less to explore than ever
>somehow that makes it best level design
are fromdrones secretely the casuls?
i suspected for a long time that the obsessive "git gud" spam was projecting, but sekiro is the first time we're really getting to see it so obviously

Nioh's artstyle looks like it was designed by that 13-year old nerd in the back of the class.

But then every person can adjust the gameplay to their personal preferences. I'm not saying we need a billion weapons, but at least 7 or something would be enough to create some variety. Again, if that was a price to pay for good combat, I'm willing to pay it, but I truly believe from can do both. They can pull off sekiro's nice combat and multiple weapons.

Stats straight level up can die though. Those are really unnecessary.

Funny thing about Sekiro is that despite being an Action game over a RPG.
It has more actual Rele playing than souls games.

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Only good soulborne world was dark souls 1 because you couldn't warp to every single bonfire and the world mostly looped on itself like a good metroidvania

>Multiple weapons and builds make every playthrough more unique and every person will experience something completely different.
Absolute bullshit. There's only two different playstyles in souls games and it's ranged and close range. The rest is just picking between the samey list of tools with attack speed and power you need. Sekiro offsets this by giving you a single playstyle but with a shitload of very nuanced and useful tools that all can interact with the enemies and environment in ways previous souls games were afraid of doing because of pvp balance dragging the game down.

The very fact puppet ninjutsu exists and works on literally everything unlike the limited-ass Rapport in souls games make the game way more interesting to replay.

>There's literally no reason to not have multiple weapons in sekiro.
Your character has a very specific background this time around and his background involves having HIS sword and being trained to the highest standard with that sword. Your character magically being an expert with every weapon he finds would be retarded.

>Notice how much more polished and focused From Software could make their game once they vastly cut down on the RPG elements
We've been saying this for years

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because it's not.
it's like saying "hurr videogames is just pushing buttons why people would spend time doing that"

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It's the best put together fromsoft game.

However my gametime with it will be the least of any other souls game. No pvp, no lack of different builds, lack of weapons.

From a single playthrough it is the best game. But for replay value it is the worst.

>I've been in this place longer than you shitstain.
Damn it dude, stop embarrassing yourself. Evidently not, if you don't know what kabuki theater is.

but that didn't actually add anything other than a "oh cool, i'm back here now" moment and there are very diminishing returns with those.

user, "choosing what weapon to use" included "choosing to use the divine axe or the quality axe". Even if you don't want to count that, it's still not actually a choice because one upgrade path is going to be the obvious best for your stats.

>>I want EVERY weapon to be powered up at the same time so I can switch to whatever I want!
>you can upgrade every weapon to 8 or 9
Which is it, you retard. Somehow, allowing a playstyle to use multiple weapons is more casual than incentivizing sticking to one thing.

>And on another run you stick with it for the entire playthrough, welcome to RPGs
What is this sentence trying to say, and how does that disprove the fact that all weapons but the one you plan on using in this given run might as well be blank?

>Being "objectively better" than another armor was very rare with all the factors like weight, specific buffs, different defenses for all damage types and poise
I'm not sure you've played the game.

>All consumables in Dark Souls are useful
Pfft.

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I disagree completely. Every weapon class plays so different that players have absolute opposite experiences with the same bosses and we saw that stupid discussion which boss is easier which boss is harder every fucking dark souls thread.
Three players, one using katana, one using ultra greatsword and one using magic are gonna have completely different experiences.

>>Fuck RPG elements I guess
more like fuck choices
rpg elements aren't necessarily linked with upgrading weapons

>Sekiro is proof that the ARPG meme is hurting video games.

>Notice how much more polished and focused From Software could make their game once they vastly cut down on the RPG elements.

>Sekiro
>polished
Not with those awful hitboxes.

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>shinobi, by definition a warrior trained in subterfuge and non-conventional warfare
>not trained to be able to pick up and use any weapon he comes by
yeah, no
if anything he should be a fucking jackie chan juggling ladders and babbies mid-combat

>Every weapon class plays so different
No, they don't. Souls weapons after DeS sorely lack nuances and special properties outside of swing speed. The way they interact with enemies is absolutely the same. Which is actually the thing Sekiro introduced for real with prosthetics, alongside making status effects universally useful against almost all enemies.

it's a swiping grab, numbnuts
you can clearly see it hit you
the first swing is just the beginning of the attack, it continues to a horizontal swipe

>red moss
>useless
I bet you're the kind of "person" who cried about bleed builds in DaS3 until they got nerfed to the fucking ground, while actively refusing to acknowledge the counter

it made for clever world building, rewarded exploration and also felt better than the "I can teleport everywhere in the world because of unexplained unknown magic".

broadly defining a shinobi doesn't change my point

game?

you are not very clever are you

>OPEN-ENDED GAME WITH DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES THAT ALLOW FOR REPLAYABILITY BAD
>LINEAR CINEMATIC GAME GOOD

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Where do I go? The only bosses I know of right now are headless, genichiro, and fear nigga in the caves

And I can’t beat any

Your character has access to dual wielding katanas with more moveset variety than any souls dual wielding up to this point, actually useful axe, spear, throwing projectiles, pseudo-pyromancy flame, can turn into a fucking Lady Maria for a minute, zombify any enemy to fight on your side and do lots of other cool shit. He doesn't need an additional main weapon when for 1 talisman he can pierce through the enemy with a spiral spear.

Best opinion in this thread. I would've loved to hear more about Lady Butterfly or the other periphery characters like Seven Spears. Shit, we still know next to nothing about Sekiro himself when it comes down to it.

Sekiro is nether linear nether cinematic.
And it has different play stiles considering you cant get even half of all upgrades in the first play-thru.

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Exploration actually gifts you with items like this on top of sake which can be given to 3 different characters for interesting lore.

you had to double jump on her head.
If you actually read the tutorial messages you'd know how to react to perilious attacks and if you watched her moves instead of making a shitty webm so you could complain about your lack of understanding of the game mechanics you'd know how you should've reacted.

"Swing speed" is a gigantic fucking factor. There's also range, stamina consumption and stagger power. And gimmicks like thrusting weapons dealing counter damage, most curved weapons having bleed damage (which is NOT useless, maybe except ds2) and blunt weapons assraping skeletons and knights

I still prefer demons souls to all others. Knights with weighty weapons are just fucking better than spam spam spam, also the atmosphere goes a lot better with this feel.

>"I can teleport everywhere in the world because of unexplained unknown magic"
you can make anything sound dumb doing that childish bullshit

"i can magically make myself stronger by sitting at campfires that i find"

>shinobi trained in the use of dual wielding giant hammer
go back to your naruto nonsense please

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ITT: seething Souls fags

cope incel

>"Swing speed" is a gigantic fucking factor
It's literally non-existent, especially given the simplicity of souls enemy AI that can be baited into an easily punishable attack string so you can sneak in even a fucking zweihander hit.
>There's also range, stamina consumption and stagger power. And gimmicks like thrusting weapons dealing counter damage, most curved weapons having bleed damage (which is NOT useless, maybe except ds2) and blunt weapons assraping skeletons and knights
All of that is present in Sekiro (only with "posture damage and recovery" instead of stamina consumption and poison instead of bleed) and it does all of those things better and far more meaningful than samey souls games.

>you cant get even half of all upgrades in the first play-thru.
that's not true though
a bit of grinding with a few runs through some of the later areas give you enough levels to complete pretty much all skill trees

Stay mad

>"i can magically make myself stronger by sitting at campfires that i find"

>imagine being this retarded
Actually, having to rest to level up is a tried and true RPG mechanic that has existed for decades. And it makes perfect sense: the resting represents your character meditating on their progress.

i don't even know who's seething or who's c o p e anymore, it's all one blurred line

thats why i bought 10 copies of sekiro
soulsfags tears is best thing in this shitboard
thanks miyazaki for better game than R1+dodge

>You will never play Sekiro for the first time again

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It's hard to max all skill trees even by the end of a fucking NG+ let alone fucking NG, the skill requirement scale is absolutely busted and some of them cost up to 9 skill points. You won't get that shit in a few hours, especially since a few combat arts are also tied to the endings.

Because they offer a unique PvP system that makes combat completely different and actually lets you play around with different wonky stuff without e-peen trakcers that would make people turn it into a boring meta-fest.
Souls at that level is not really about winning, it's about winning in the most retarded way possible. Which is why many people are so sour on Sekiro, it's a game that offers no fun to people who aren't obsessed with validating their self-worth through vidya.
Souls was difficult on the surface level to teach you the tools that you can then dick around with for pure fun. Sekiro is difficult on the surface level... And that's it. There's nothing underneath.

rent free

You're saying that like soulsfags know how to do anything other than seethe

there are stupider things than that.
The campfire-level up can be seen as actually meditating on your battles (which is pretty much why the exp point and level up system was made for).
The fact that you can teleport into a well defended castle while you have no particular magic or skill is quite outlandish

>Actually, having to rest to level up is a tried and true RPG mechanic that has existed for decades.
great, so is warping back to a hub.
>And it makes perfect sense: the resting represents your character meditating on their progress.
headcanon. in reality, you're burning souls and humanity in the fire and getting stronger via magical nonsense

I dont get the complaints about 1 weapon. the game is a classic live by the sword die by the sword samurai story. Kusabimaru and mortal blade are like characters of their own and often outshine in character over sekiro's muted personality. it's like 92fs and john woo.

There's also Sabimaru that enables cool switch combos with Kusabimaru.
You're literally a 3kat samurai.

>The campfire-level up can be seen as actually meditating on your battles
you're burning the souls and humanity you collected to magically make yourself stronger
>The fact that you can teleport into a well defended castle while you have no particular magic or skill is quite outlandish
the whole series is outlandish.

I really like From's games, but the discussion that arises from them is some pure fucking cancer incarnate. Every single new game it's the same old shit of declaring it to be the new proper direction and retroactively devalue the previous games and the experiences you had with it. It honestly fucking floors me why you'd purposely want to convince yourself the X hours you spent on whater From game was actually wasted time on a bad game, because [newer game] is clearly better.

From games might just be the only ones on Yea Forums these days where "old game good, new game bad" does not apply, but is overcompensated nonetheless.

That shit only applies on your third run+
Even if you don't use everything, all those options make the world feel alive and there are plenty of interesting weapons, spells and items to use. Customization can also allow you to play in your own style even if it's not as efficient.

Case in point: killifng gael with carthus curved sword might have been easier, but going at him with the paired greatswords on ng+ in the flashiest way possible made for the most amazing anime fight, at least for me.

Sekiro is the only From game that doesn't feel like shit to play.

Even the "faster" Souls game Bloodborne felt sluggish as fuck.

k. every thread has that one "everyone here is dumb but me" poster who always looks the dumbest of all. i guess it's you this time.

I'm sorry dude, continue with your merry-go-SEETHE-COPE back and forth.

people tend to exaggerate shit. They also project their shitty lives. see botw, rdr2, it you can't find anything of worth in those you have other problems

What you're saying basically means that From couldn't be bothered to make a focused experience exciting, so they just threw a bunch of shit in and forced the player to try and invent their own fun. So on top of being lazy, they also don't respect the player's time.

for real?
monster hunter (think its 4g)

Evergrace is the still only good From game.

>focused bosses based on timing and learning patterns instead of circling a boss and pressing r1 or dodge when it finishing an attack chain

soulstards btfo

Levelling systems are a cancer, respeccable skill trees are good. I'm not even talking limited to just ARPGs, this is about RPGs and games based on them in general.

Customization is a positive thing but not if it's in such a nebulous and farmable way that it can vastly affect difficulty to just go grind some shit out. I'd argue that permanently consumable items are also bad for game design especially with how players tend to use (or not use) them. If you make everything refreshable for each fight and make sure that every player will always be at exactly the same level of power you can put the most difficulty into every battle possible and make the outcome decided purely on player skill and utilization of their customization options. You could let the player always have an Elixir in their pocket for every boss, but they only have that singular Elixir per battle. They always know they can use it and won't hesitate to if it's absolutely necessary, so you can up the stakes of fights drastically because people won't piss around trying to clear a fight without using a consumable and you can make midgame battles actually interesting rather than something to easily clear. You can't compensate for sucking ass by going and punching some mobs or buying some items to cheese by with, you're stuck with what you have and have to make the most of it. You'd buckle down and look over your available skill points and respec them to fit the battle or adjust your playing style around a new build that might work better for you.

instead of finding the 37th short sword or generic DPS up crafting gear you should find new weapon moves or something else that lets you add to your repertoire instead of either replacing it or ignoring the new thing

But half the appeal of Souls games is the character customization and different ways to play the game.

I have fuckall interest in Sekiro mostly cause you're locked to playing with one weapon and a handful of attacks all game. Shit's lame.

Beat Genchiro and Guardian Ape back to back after sniffing 3 grams of coke last night lads

So who backstabed you back in the Hirata estate? Owl?

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>you're locked to playing with one weapon and a handful of attacks all game.
that's exactly what dark souls does except sometimes you find a new weapon that's slightly different

None of those things you listed are RPG elements. BB is the game that started stripping RPG elements from Souls and it was an improvement.

I like Sekiro but skill trees are awful. I hate being forced to purchase a skill or combination of skills I may not want or need to be able to unlock a completely different skill.

Bloodborne doesn't feel that sluggish but I agree. Dark souls 1 plays like ABSOLUTE SHIT, try playing it after playing sekiro or bloodborne. It's also stupidly easy

No, that's how you choose to play the game.

Irregardless of your build, you are till going to be doing a lot of rolling and pressing R1 in Dark Souls.

Because that's the primary method of attacking. Does DOOM have too much shooting?

>you can equip 1 (one) combat art at a time
for what fucking purpose? My entire sword arsenal has less depth than one dark souls 3 weapon.

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If someone is enough of a boring cunt to bother grinding for hours to beat a boss, then let them ruin the game for themselves. I never had a problem with this in bloodborne or souls and I find the levelling system makes the game more fun and not much less challenging than sekiro (which is fairly straightforward when you get used to it)

Yes, yes you can.
What is the point of this post? God, don't ever reply to me again, you fucking nerd.

>But half the appeal of Souls games
good thing it was marketed as "not souls game" then!

Theres no way to stop the ARPG train, I mean even games like DMC are considered pure action even though they have a ton of mechanics borrowed from adventure games and rpgs like the need to constantly upgrade your character with currency until you get to the actual game. And even these mixed action games are becoming archaic with the most major developer is taking the ARPG pill recently with Nier Automata and seemingly Astral Chain. GoW has a ton of RPG elements too on the western side. Focused vidya is slowly becoming outdated as far as the mainstream goes and was only popular partly because of hardware limitations. People want everything to be a mixed homogenized clusterfuck and the industry has been moving in that direction for decades with no signs of stopping.

Pretty much every souls game.

Sekiro isn't really difficult, it's a game of pure attrition against most bosses where you're trying to find ways of grinding down their HP so that you can break their posture, otherwise their natural regen + endless attacks means eventually you will get hit and if you ever get hit at all, you're likely losing.

It makes every fight feel the same because your absolute best tool is deflection. Then to compensate for that, they made grabs some of the most infuriating shit in any Souls game ever because enemies can and will home like a heat seeking missile when it comes time to grab your ass. Boss design is overall the worst I think I've seen in the series and I've just about finished the game now.

There's also little to no incentive to replay the game.

But its an incredibly simplistic gameplay loop, Dooms strength is how its levels and movements mix with encounters to create depth and allow for different strategies, Souls literally comes down to dodge attack -> counter with the only variables being what the dodge timing is, and how many times you can press R1 before going on the defensive

>marketing
>meaning anything
It targets the same audience and derives most of its mechanics and systems from Souls.

Sekiro is much worse for the removal though, it's a mediocre action game and a terrible stealth game, so stripping away the RPG mechanics has just stripped away complexity and variation.

>And no one takes the pvp seriously cause it is a joke.
Maybe because you were forced to swallow the "BB pvp bad" meme by jewtubers. I can tell you now that invasions are surprisingly active. Had non stop invasions at the Forbidden Woods at BL100.
>Magic is useless and barely anyone uses it
In PvE, every single one is viable.
Being a retard who can't use them effectively in PvP, however, is your fault.

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>Dooms strength is how its levels and movements mix with encounters to create depth and allow for different strategies
But that's the exact point of soulsborne games in terms of combat. Mashing R1 or dodge gets you killed. You need to strategically position yourself and get your timings right, in terms of waiting for the opportune moment to strike and coinciding your dodge's iframes with the oncoming attack.

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I think the combat is better but if there ever is a Sekiro 2 we need more than one combat art slot. There are so many combat arts in this game and most of them never get used because they are too niche so you just end up slotting something for general purposes. The game would also benefit from a customizable moveset like in Godhand.

I just recently played bloodborne and i didn't get invaded once.
Does everyone hang at that soul level or is there something you have to actively do in order to get invaded randomly?

You dont need to position yourself because of iframes and boss tracking, its ALL in the timing, with the only exceptions being AOE attacks which are rare, directional swipes which become second nature very quickly and the occasional dual boss. You look at the moves, dodge them and then whack the boss a couple of times during their recovery animation, thats 90% of the gameplay. All the different weapons do is change how many times you can whack them. Its a very low depth and low skill ceiling combat system, that needs at the very least constant group fights with multiple poise heavy enemies to get any depth from manipulating their attacks and positioning, otherwise there is nothing.

>But that's the exact point of soulsborne games in terms of combat. Mashing R1 or dodge gets you killed. You need to strategically position yourself and get your timings right, in terms of waiting for the opportune moment to strike and coinciding your dodge's iframes with the oncoming attack.
In a 1v1 (e.g. most boss fights and enemy encounters) that always results in a game of Simon Says where you have to memorize the enemy attack timings based on abstract-ass enemy attack animations where a strike being wound up can mean it lands in 0.5s or 1s. Then throwing in some fake-outs and feints to trick you into dodging which you will have memorized after a cheap death. It's about pressing 'da dodge button' at the right time with minimal regard for positioning or where to dodge towards, and attacking only when the boss is vulnerable. Sekiro isn't an exception to this either, but it lets you be on the offense more so combat doesn't feel as passive/reactive.

The only time any strategy is involved in timing dodges attacks is when you are facing multiple enemies at once with asynchronous attack patterns and behaviors you have to keep track of and adapt to. With a 1v1 it's pure memorization. That's why beat 'em ups like Streets of Rage 2 and Final Fight or first-person shooters like Doom always have you be outnumbered. Actually adapting to enemy attack patterns even when you do know them thoroughly can only really happen if the sole enemy you're fighting has multiple overlapping attack patterns like Mundus in DMC1 or any Cuphead boss.

They’re both about exploring and combat. I’m not finished with Sekiro but it seems the exploration overall is at least as good as in Bloodborne, and the combat is better.

Not just that the enemies actually need to be able to withstand your attacks with a lot of poise or health as Dark Souls 3 shows since otherwise it goes from dodge counter to a rushdown type of playstyle where all you do is prioritize targets to lock down and r1 spam to death, which is also very low depth. I guess you could use the environment and items too but that tend to be time consuming in comparison. Dark Souls 2 got a lot of shit for its multi enemy encounters but its basically Souls combat at its most dynamic which is sad.

>it's a mediocre action game and a terrible stealth game, so stripping away the RPG mechanics has just stripped away complexity and variation
Your logic is terrible and based on poor assertions.
One could easily argue Souls is an even worse action game than Sekiro, therefore all you have is simply a large variation of less than "mediocre", which doesn't really help your argument.

Combat arts are pretty shit to outside of like Ichimonji.

Sekiro honestly kind of reminds me more of an old-style Zelda game than Souls.

You upgrade your character and get new items and abilities, but they're not really supposed to be some kind of "build" or whatever. You simply get more tools at your disposal and they have different uses and opens up the gameplay more. The exploration also does this thing where the environments can often be pretty big and vast, but the game still has bottlenecks where it funnels you and controls your progression.

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On the other hand, Sekiro literally has no replay value aside from different endings with copy/paste bosses from the other endings or main game. In a Soulsborne game, your character would continue to progress across endless playthroughs, and you could try a different build if you grew bored.

I finished Sekiro in about 43 hours, getting the true ending and the fight against peak Isshin, as well as getting every upgrade aside from 2 lapis lazuli ones which would require a billion hours of grind for what amounts to blue particle effects and 5% more damage. I have no reason to play Sekiro ever again. I couldn't play the game differently even if I tried to. The tools aren't there.

Yeah, most of them are because of damage values. But that can be fixed easily by just buffing them. Also, have you tried High Monk? That combat art absolutely destroys anything that uses sweeping attacks.

Did you beat all the encounters without using stealth or hit n run tactics? Did you even try that? Did you try doing it aggressively and efficiently? Theres a lot of fun and experimentation to be had there that completely gets overlooked because people would rather cheese everything with stealth.

>Dark Souls 2 got a lot of shit for its multi enemy encounters
And this pisses me off to no end, since the vast majority of these encounters were NOT bullshit, unfair or whatever the fuck the shitters decided to call them. They actually required good positioning and stamina management, and there should be much more of these in other souls games. But it turned out that the fanbase of a series known for being hardcore is actually full of unskilled idiots

Keep your sinister bell active when doing playthroughs: do a sinister run. It's like a dried finger run. It'll spawn bell ringing maidens in your world (making you susceptible to invasions) while simultaneously looking for other worlds to invade.

Stop moving the goalposts.
Have you beaten any game unless you've done zero damage, speedrun, no item, no healing, no melee run etc etc?

Stealth isn't cheese. It is literally the way the game is supposed to be played. You can't kill a miniboss or boss with stealth alone so at some point you'd need to fight it properly regardless.

>In a Soulsborne game, your character would continue to progress across endless playthroughs
The way Souls games handle NG+ cycles or endgame is absolutely horrendous, though. All it does is give enemies more health and hit for more damage. Character progression stagnates after equipment is upgraded to the max, and at some point leveling up loses its efficacy, and that's assuming you're willing to go out of the meta level range to meet with other players online and don't care about having a focused build. That is yet another mind boggling design they maintained for 5 fucking games. At least in Nioh you have the sense of constantly growing stronger as you climb each difficulty mode.

>replay value
Not that I necessarily disagree but I don't understand why this is something that's brought up so much with Sekiro in particular.
I mean, you don't hear people talking about replay value so much in games like Max Payne, Doom, STALKER, Resident Evil, Nier, a bunch of JRPGs, and god knows what else. Yes, there's mods and fan-made levels, but shit that's not in the game already doesn't really count in my eyes. Some games are really just for all intents and purposes one and done, with the occasional difficulty settings and NG+ to scale the enemy difficulty with your character progress. My first playthrough of Sekiro took me around 50 hrs and on NG+ I'm replaying it to tackle old areas with new tools and to see how far I've improved by steamrolling through bosses.

Honestly, this desire for moar replay value screams to me a repressed desire for this game to be more like Souls and to have builds.

what you just described is true for most games that fall into that genre on paper. There is a difference between describing the general gameplay decision making flowchart and executing on it.

That's literally how people play it though. You play it that way, I play it that way, even speedrunners play it that way. Failure to execute just means you get hit and back away for a sippy, an interruption of the main loop rather than a change of it.

What's the lore on statues resetting enemies?

What goalposts? It's an alternate playstyle that actually is more demanding not just because it's a test of consistently like a no damage/no upgrade run would be but because it demands different strategies from you. You can't fight groups like you fight single enemies at all. How the fuck is this not a different playstyle while doing the same dodging and pressing r1 with a slightly slower weapon is?

The fuck you talking about? Souls and Bloodborne are VASTLY superior to Sekiro

They get back up again.

Yeah I was saying this years ago when the game was new even comparing it to 2D arcade beat 'em ups but everyone was too busy meme'ing about shockwaves or ambushes to care. Then DS3 came out and was met with "this is how you do group fights!" praise despite the group fights being completely braindead and tedious there. Retarded fanbase.

okay

just let me take that sekiro away from you brainlet, ninja gaiden black is literally the only action game youre allowed to play anymore

>What's the lore on statues resetting enemies?
There's just more of them, there's always an influx of enemies. But, in the dream sequence like in the Hirata Estates its just reliving the moment again.

I'm saying that you can't tack on artificial handicaps and then say that the game has other ways to play it. By that logic every game has infinite replay value provided you're going to create reasons and ways to play it differently. Sekiro has a specifically intended way to play it with very little deviation. Yes you COULD fuck off with the intended mechanics but then you're creating an alternate playstyle by deliberately ignoring the only intended way to play.

Dark Souls has build variety. Playing a Str based Character is different from an Int based character. Not to mention DS2 at least rewarded the player for imposing hardships, like no bonfires etc. Sekiro has a single intended playstayle.

Shit kills me man. It's like the arm from the SpongeBob shows lol

You're right. People seriously exaggerate the "replay value" of the Souls games. In the end these games are about combat and exploration, that's where the enjoyment is, not in fucking "build variety"

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One thing I find weird is that Sekiro can be construed as one of the few good 3D metroidvanias out there. Given the popularity (and sometimes almost obnoxious dicksucking) of games like Hollow Knight, you'd think a game like this would have been more appreciated instead of repeatedly being met with the criticism of something the game isn't even attempting to be.

You're not responding to what I said. Yes, that's how you play and are supposed to play but there is a world difference between knowing what you are supposed to do and actually doing it. Shmups are also just games where you have to recognize attack patterns and then learn how to dodge them while relying on 2 button inputs. In fact a huge part of getting through higher difficulties is the memorization of these patterns and learning how to respond to them appropriately and time your dodges accurately but suggesting that this somehow diminishes their difficulty is nonsense. It really depends how lenient the game is on your fuckups and that isn't relevant for how the game plays out in theory.

>Sekiro
>Polished
Holy shit shills get the fuck out. Such a mediocre game, if it wasn't for the FROMSOFT tag nobody would give a shit about it.

Oh and I forgot, ring your sinister bell and then ring your beckoning bell. Prepare to get bodied, though. Make sure you twink yourself for the occasion. Ganks are pretty common, and password summons are everywhere.

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>metroidvania
Opinion discarded.

>make different kind of weapons
>only one type is viable
yeah I loved the absolute shit out of the "hit to heal" system, I really wanted to not use any even slightly slow weapon

That's partially true, but does Sekiro really have that many areas locked behind items gained from exploration?
I was under the impression the items you get from exploring all tie into progressing the story.

I honestly didn't expect Soulsfags to go down this road of argumentation. Is not summoning an artificial handicap? Is not cheesing enemies with bows an artificial handicap? How about not stacking poise and mashing R1? None of these games are designed with "one intended playstyle" in mind, they're playgrounds that give you some mechanics and expect you to play around with them. Simply not using stealth has large impacts on the gameplay and it's an incredibly obvious playstyle, yet for some reason it doesn't count just because you've decided that the developers didn't intend it just because they included a ton of stealth mechanics, and because it's difficulty. Fucking mongs I swear

I'm sorry, I was referring to 'search action' game.

That attack is a two-part attack that grabs you. Isshin has the same attack in his thrust if you don't Mikiri Counter it and are to close.

literally get fucking good, you did not understand the game
my top 3 weapons were pizza cutter, tricked axe and Amy arm and basically you're bad

>you will play Sekiro 2 for the first time eventually

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>theres no "reason" to ever replay something with good gameplay, where are my carrot on a stick mechanics and outfit choices

I just love what the bethesdas and naughty dogs did to gaming, these literally retarded children would have wasted a pretty penny on every single game that came out before 2005

>>make different kind of weapons
>>only one type is viable
Did you fucking play the game? Every single weapon is viable and effective.

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>"hit to heal" system
Rallying is literally an optional mechanic, lmao.

*blocks your path*
1000+ hours in DaS
600 in DaS2
500 in DaS3
600 in BB

What difficulty? I'm talking about depth, the difficulty is low too though but low depth doesn't mean low difficulty since games like rhythm games have no depth but a lot of difficulty. Shmups especially more modern ones derive depth from overlapping patterns that are variable based on your positioning and have a decent degree of randomness in them, along with indepth scoring systems that give you very variable outcomes for slightly different actions and can change your routes quite significantly. Very simple shmups like Flying Shark are quite low depth but even they have checkpoint milking and such

Back then we didn't have thousand of options of games to play, we played the same games over and over because it was what we had. I have no reason to replay sekiro for the same experience when I can go to my backlog and play something entirely different for a new experience.

Of course you would know this if you actually played it back then, but you're just parroting other posts like the good brainless NPC you are.

>I have no reason to replay sekiro for the same experience when I can go to my backlog and play something entirely different

because youre a mindless drone that wants to endlessly consume garbage and shit out while already eating the next tampon, now go kill yourself

Your mentality is encouraging games to become more bloated.

Nice to see the little parrot loses his shit when he's busted out of his stupid borrowed opinions.

youtu.be/q6dnG9tRr9

I liked it.

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Great video

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ZOOM PUNCH!!

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maybe if your capacity to break down videogames begins and ends with "it take place in da japans and it has da curverd japan sword"

so now you play trough it once
maybe twice if you missed some stuff
and you're all ready to buy the next product
you're right its so much better this way
i'm already excited for "nextgame" and preordered it
so BASED

>meme hitboxes
>shit ng+
>boring item bosses
>pointless exploration

mmmm yeah very good game lul

fuck off, the dude has a point. sekiro is a single player game with no upgraded armor or weapons and a set amount of endings. I don't care how enthralling it is now because it's new, it will wear off.

It can be a good game, user, but nobody plays a game like that forever like they do with other from games.

yes they should have made dark souls 4
dark souls is so much better than [new game]

I mean thanks for confirming youre an actual zoomer, people are still playing decades old singleplayer games regularly and almost everyone who isnt an unironic zoomer secondary redditor has at least a few games/ series that if not constantly, they replay at least yearly

Your definition of depth is arbitrary. You're referring to adaptability challenges (like randomized or overlapping patterns) as if they were indicative of depth. God Hand for example has a much lower adaptability ceiling than any Shmup with randomized patterns but a more in-depth combat system due to the variety of challenges it poses in conjunction with a customizable moveset. You're right, depth isn't necessarily difficulty, so why are you conflating adaptability elements indicative of difficulty with the depth of a gameplay system?

yes, and that's that. I quietly chrono cross/trigger once a year myself, games with way higher replayability than sekiro, btw and get a thread with 13 replies if I make one and that's that. Communities are dead, as happens with every single player game over time. Now dark souls? Still a fucking general. Fuck off with your zoomer projection, denying this simple fact is willful ignorance.

Sekiro is what Bloodborne should have been.
Sekiro fully embraces and is focused on action, while Bloodborne is almost (if it didn't have the atmosphere and the lore, it would be) like your typical AAA game that tries to do many things at once (Shallow RPG, multiplayer and action), but none of the mechanics end up being fully fleshed out.
Dark souls games (At least the first two) heavily focus on RPG mechanics and because they focus on certain gameplay style for the most part, they are arguably better designed games than Bloodborne.

Bloodborne is in no way unfinished or not fleshed out, fuck right off or explain that bunk ass claim.

Some of the people in this thread seem to think that quantity matters more than quality. Go play a shitty MMORPG if you want hundreds of hours of void gameplay.

I agree. Especially since stats alone don't actually make a game an RPG at all, so all they're really doing is making watered down action games when they tack on stats / builds. I do like the multiplayer aspect to the Souls games though.

Certain people in this thread can't seem to grasp that a game can both be good and also not have any longetivity. Fucking weird, right?

this is the so called zoomer yikes sekiro has many issues you cuck poor rpg mechanics exploration feels like shit on ng+ plus ng+ is shit no replayablity and sequel bait

Is everyone being fucked up by this generation of games are am I just not adjusting like you? I cleared Sekiro yesterday and thought it was an amazing game. I felt good, very good and looked forward to playing something else for a change of pace, but the journey and destination will be remembered by me. But it seems like you are all so angry, angry that you can not play this 1000 hours and not get tired cause "builds". Is the loot crate and franchise side taking fucking with you all? Is a great video game that is very rare in it´s performance quality of being a tight action game with very light light rpg elements. Move on with good faith to a new game? Why not?

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If it is truly good then the longevity doesn't matter. The first, or maybe second experience is the one that sticks in your mind.

For a start this is a pointless diversion discussing semantics since randomization was just a small element of my larger point you can take it out entirely and you'd still have the same argument. The reason that randomization creates depth though is because it prevents the player from manipulating the aimed patterns which are pretty much always mixed in. Rhythm games aren't deep despite being heavily randomized because there's no other elements and one change doesn't lead to others, shmups are deeper because the random elements have an effect on your movement which has an effect on the patterns which has an even bigger effect on your movement. Do you understand? None of this changes that Souls combat is a simplistic loop.

Not him, but discussion around Souls is only active because how easy it is to shitpost, and everyone and their dog has to comment on their personal epic "from best to shit" rankings like it means anything.
People don't actually discuss the games themselves for the most part, even with games that have more complex combat and are more recent like DMC5, the topics almost always revolve around some fan's headcanon, memes or OC.

Say what you will of Nioh's gameplay but the ost is so much better than Sekiro.

>The zoomer requirment for a game to good
>500+ hours
>Loot
>Multiplayer
>Discord communities talking about the same shit for years
>Streamers streaming it for a living and play nothing else till the sequel
>Normalfaggot fanbase
I find it facinating that we have devolved into tribe mentality unknowingly. Just like books, play a lot, play everything, and discover new things. You are all instead 50Shades or Pottercumslurpers.

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Sekiro isn't impressive and you need to kill yourself. Its a lite action game isn't of a arpg with limited tactics and boss patterns. Its inferior to DMC not only gameplay wise but DMD is a better challenge with DMC5. Let alone if we take a more comparable game like Ninja Gaiden Black where Sekiro is like a kid with a IQ of 40 being laughed at by a muscle bound unmeasurable genius,

>In PvE, every single one is viable.
>b-but you just have to get to NG+ or grind for hours on retarded Chalices to not be so shit.
Arcane in BB is unfun, Viable? yes, but the game is obviously wayy too biases towards physical builds.

Even DaS3 which made magic as shit as possible is still miles better since there it is actually viable.

>Contradicts himself
Not him, but from what little I played from the shitty DSIII game, enemies got RNG move pattern, you can luck out on easy boss moves and have bad luck with hard move list being thrown out. You sound like an autist, but you really just out yourself as a dude with an agenda.

Bloodborne downgrades everything from previous games.
>Most covenants are identical and offer no proper rewards
>All starting classes are identical, should not have one if it's like this
>Limited build variety, weapons, spells etc.
>Multiplayer is so shitty, shallow and unpopular that you have to go to chalice dungeons to get duels and in order for it to be balanced, there are "rules" that say you can't use blood vials or gems.

it simply doesnt have replayablity this can be a deal breaker for some people game has 4 endings but no replayablity fucking why???

>country mile
>thinking it’s actually a mile
You’re retarded.

Meant to reply here

Wow. Why is Sekiro getting targeted by Yea Forums shitpost discord group? The game has zero politics, is a great game, full singleplayer with 20+h gameplay and the Steam version is nice. The game is as inoffensive as possible.

because it's popular and difficult, which means that the contrarian no brain no skills must hate it.

Sekiro is not an rpg and it has replay value, though, I would like if the game had a proper NG+ where item and enemy placements are different.

Do you miss the overlapping and reactive to your actions part? Neck yourself retard

you're just plain stupid

Seething Soulstards

>The game has zero politics
You don't understand. The people who harp on politics all day long have a genuine disdain for the apolitical and want everything to become politicized. They're the seediest and most corrupting people in the whole world and will eventually destroy everything you know and love.

Everything you said is true, and can be observed by the fact that Sekiro's Concept Art matches perfectly with what is found in-game, the only FromSoft title to do so.

It's their most polished game. Their magnum opus so far.
Plus it makes Soulsbabies seethe, which is always a bonus.

>>In PvE, every single one is viable.
>>b-but you just have to get to NG+ or grind for hours on retarded Chalices to not be so shit.
Thanks for proving you haven't played the game, because you just spouted fucking nonsense. Why would you go to the chalice dungeons to make arcane tools viable? Almost every single arcane tool is not only viable, but effective.
>DaS3 magic
A literal meme compared to even BB's tools. Only pyromancies are good.

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but it has rpg elements though???

>The people who harp on politics all day long have a genuine disdain for the apolitical
How does that work? What is the train of thought for that.

if this game is the best then why is it 85% vs dark souls 3s 90% sekicucks explain

Fucking yikes. Hope you get aids with that shit taste.

>So much anger
Why?

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Too hard for Soulshitters

Politics is about collectives and apolitical things encourage individualism, so they see apolitical things as a threat to their lifestyle, which they kind of are.

He's right.

It's too hard for the dodge roll R1 mash soulshitters.

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hes wrong though cuck 85% kun

Sekiro is ironically the only FromSoft game with actual role playing elements, since your choices actually affect the bosses and areas you encounter.
Stats don't make an RPG.

Sekiro got no shortcuts, no farming levels, no OP equipment, no multiplayer co-op. Is all you. You can cheese the game, but is still all you, you going to have to perform 20 mins of cheesing tactics to get that win if you want to advance, but it is still all you. Gamejournos can not do that. Look at all the hit pieces that demands easier difficulty or ways to bypass boss without playing.

except sekiro is probably their worst game, arguably more so than das3

Ssssshhh, you are ruining the narrative for him.

from a progression/customisation/rpg point sekiro is absolute garbage

The number of ways it's possible to git gud at makes it replayable in a way Souls isn't.
At max you'll be killing the enemies in Souls efficiently and not taking damage, but in Sekiro you can try going full stealth, no stealth, a mix of both and using different prostethics, which already gets more effective variety than replaying Souls, which only 1 and 2 let you at least truly sequence break

Yes

Why is half of Yea Forums suddenly pretending all souls games suck when up until a few weeks ago they sucked their dick (except for 2)? Is it because Sekiro is the hot new thing? Autistic contrarianism?

Any game is absolute garbage if you choose to judge it on arbitrary metrics

>If every weapon is good it makes you stick to only one weapon
Are you retarded?
>It's bad because I said so
Yes. You are retarded.

stop sprouting garbage dude all souls games need you to git gud you are trying to defend replayablity where there is none

It's like eating tendies all your life and then somebody gives you a nice expensive steak. Yeah you enjoyed those tendies before but now that you ate something actually good you realized they were fucking shit.

>what is armored core
it's a real fucking shame that fromsoft turned to shit with soulsfaggotry

The horse mourning guy comes back every time.

i dont like mechs :)

>Is not summoning an artificial handicap?
No because it's a feature of the game, a literal built in mechanic designed for players to use and intended to be a way to play the game. There is nothing artificial about it. Doing a no-hit run is artificial, since the player has created that style of play.

>Is not cheesing enemies with bows an artificial handicap?
No, because again it is a literal mechanic. If you're abusing AI to get it done then yeah, you're cheesing and abusing a mechanic.

The point is the Sekiro has 1 playstyle, anything else you decide to do is you, the player, forcing your own style onto the game. You could do a 'No Prosthetic Arm' run, but the game isn't designed to do this nor does it reward you for doing so.

>tfw fucked myself over by not upgrading umbrella and wasted sen on shurikens
You are wrong and I hate Sekiro.

different builds are fun fuck you

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Ruiner did skill trees right

100% true. RPG mechanics in ARPGs are a crutch for developers who can't make good action games. The mechanics are shallow so they rely on skinnerboxes.

You can see Fromsoft's development from Demon's Souls to Sekiro. The more experienced they've become with combat, the more they streamline the RPG mechanics.

literelly lets just wait a month i can guarentee when playerbase gets low Yea Forums will turn on the game

>all souls games need you to git gud
When you can just summon help and overlevel? Lol, Souls games are literally made for casuals

Sekiro really is the BotW of From games then. Next thing you know, people will be saying it invented thing that have been in the action genre for decades, just like BotW fanboys.

it's more like steak vs slightly better steak without any side dishes or beverage

Really? It feels like everyone is sucking DS and even goddamn BB cock while trying to paint Sekiro as the spawn of the devil.

You mean when all the zoomzoomzooms move on to the next big thing

Just like with BB right? Keep coping, nigger. Soulsshit is dead.

>IS OKAY IF DS DO IT BUT NOT SEKIRO AAAAAAAAHHH
Mate, they are from the same dev. Why you gotto take sides in a imaginary war?

yes but Yea Forums will sperg about replayablity

Armored Core never lived up to my expectations and I started with the demo of the fist game on the PS1 demo disc. FROM games are always restricting and Armored Core always felt like they went overboard on that aspect. Missions are too short, combat is too brief, there's too much emphasis on mechanical logistics of the Core, the story is delivered in a boring format, etc. They had awesome mech designs, but the games were just never that exciting.

>zoomer's first From title
nah

Practically all modern action games have some sort of RPG mechanics. Even many shooters do, especially in their multiplayer modes which is most as far as the ranking systems go.

You're not rewarded for not using summoning to cheese every boss, you're only punished for it. Yet most don't abuse summoning to trivialize the game and that's a legit playstyle, why is that?

How does that even remotely address what I wrote. Seems like you're the one taking sides in an imaginary war.

whats the point of arguing when fromsoft has a souls like in development

Bloodborne is not good because of its RPG elements, it's good in spite of them.

DS and BB are so much more better exactly because they have all these things like stats, builds, widely different weapons, spells AND multiplayer and still have competent impactful action combat.

FPBP

>NO YOU
BB=Sekiro>DeS>DS>DSII=DSIII
Dumb faggot.

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Sekiro has better progression than Soulsborne because every boss or mini-boss you kill gives you an objective increase in power, that's way more satisfying than getting a sword that doesn't fit your playstyle or a boss soul that will either languish in your inventory or get immediately consumed for souls.

People think more complex progression = better progression when it's the exact opposite. Just compare the original Legend of Zelda with Breath of the Wild. Getting sword upgrades in LoZ is a huge fucking deal and makes you feel powerful when you steamroll enemies that used to be a nightmare. Whereas in BotW it's so wishy-washy, you get all these random weapons that are meant to be arbitrarily used and broken. Even the Master Sword was weakened to fit that system. Combine that with the reskinned enemies that scale in health, and you never really get that satisfaction that a raw increase in power does. LoZ's system took infinitely less effort to implement (literally +1 to Link's attack variable) than BotW's but is so much more elegant.

>No because it's a feature of the game
and thus not utilizing it makes the run artificial, doesn't it ?

B-but muh Japan! Muh ninjas! Superior Japanese setting is better than dumb gross western shit!
Heh *sniff* I showed him...

>and still have competent impactful action combat
you don't actually believe that, do you ?

>competent impactful action combat.
>souls
Fucking lol

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yes the combat is good why

sekiro is better than BB simply because it has vertical movement and punishing pointless shit like rolling

How are you punished? You even get sunlight medals. Besides, if people don't want to summon then they don't have to, the game is designed to be played with or without summons. The mechanic exists but it's optional.
Sekiro doesn't have 'options'. Yes you CAN refuse to do certain things but the game is built around playing it a specific way. I'm not saying the game is bad in any way (I've completed it 5 times and 100% it). But the ONLY reason I could see replay value is to get the trophies or to impose artificial playstyles.

Ah, I see you're adopting the "I'm just pretending to be retarded" defence.

The game is built around either using or not using that mechanic, the option is presented but it's not the sole intended way to complete the game.

B-but muh Yurop! Muh knights! Superior Yuropean setting is better than dumb gross jap shit!

no sekiro is shit

Still better than BB

>the option is presented but it's not the sole intended way to complete the game
and the same applies to stealth in sekiro, does it not ? Since it's an option that you can utilize but there are other ways to deal with enemies (fight them directly)

you wish casual
>hey lets kill you off simply because you landed on water

The inclusion of an artist-designed main protagonist who talks was a massive improvement over the Souls games and no one can rationally deny this.

The Posture mechanic is a stroke of absolute genius. I seriously can't go back to rolling like a retard again after having actual badass swordfights

Some people didn't enjoy Sekiro. Cope.

BB is better than sekiro in many ways literelly one of the weapons has more of a moveset than that sword yikes

level design in sekiro is brilliant my dude, Ashina Castle beats Yahram in complexity and interconnectivity thanks to the vertical options the game has. seethe

No point in arguing with the zooms, all thry care about is difficulty. When the next game comes out that is harder than Sekiro, they’ll suddenly say Sekiro was stupid baby shit for babies and that Sekiro 2/BB 2/Lightsaber Assassin is the best game ever. They’re just stroking their micro e-peen and don’t really care about the games. I blame the “prepare to die” marketing of the original DS that brought people like that to Fromsoft.

literelly just named a casualised mechanic ohno

Man I was just shitposting, you really are defensive over your weebery aren’t you? Seek help.

How in the fuck do you have 100 hours in a game that came out 192 hours ago?

Mmm...

Snoyniggers coping hard I see

Combat in Sekiro is designed around removing individual threats via Stealth or hit-and-run because the combat system isn't setup to deal with multiple opponents. The choice to not use Stealth to deal with mob encounters runs in the face of the way the combat functions.

dude if BB came out on pc these fags would collectively shit there pants and call it the best game ever

I care about gameplay. Sorry but I just don't find the "mash r1" combat of Souls all that fun.

its dumb and never made any sense just like iframes on rolls

Cope

NPC tier response, as expected from fagiro shills

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>because the combat system isn't setup to deal with multiple opponents
>what are skills
>what are prosthetics
>what are items

>le wojak funneh xD
Found an actual npc.

Based James Bond, once again like BotW, Zooms play a game and because they haven’t played others they think the one they played is the best ever and won’t hear otherwise.

it's basically two buttons

you’re both faggot npcs

>isn't setup to deal with multiple opponents
>what is firecrackers
>what is any combat art with a wide hitbox
>what is ninjutsu

So many butthurt Souls tards itt. Soulsfags really are the Meleefags of From huh...

>he only played Dark Souls 3
>in Sekiro he mashes L1 instead
Ok

And yet the soulsborne games both play better infinitely better than Sekiro and have harder bossfights (unless you are summonfag).
Your whole post is just "durrh complexity is bad, let's not take creative risks".

Opinion discarded, kys zoomer.

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Go fight a miniboss with his entire mob aggro'd onto you without just running all over the place doing the Dark Souls R1 spam every now and again. I'll wait for the Webm.

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>doing the Dark Souls R1 spam every now and again
But no one is arguing in favor of that?

Why are RPG elements forced into every genre nowadays? Why can't a game be tuned to one difficulty as the basis for good action game? Having stats doesn't make the games better or you as a player, they almost always make you worse.

Yup, Zoomer’s mad. You like Boruto don’t you, user?

>And yet the soulsborne games both play better infinitely better than Sekiro and have harder bossfights
(You)

Nvm, I misread your post. Still, most bosses you fight one-on-one and that's an extreme case. Even then, you should still make use of the firecrackers and and the pupeteer ninjutsu to have an aid to fight with you.

If sekiro had actual interconnected world without warping around from the start of the game like DaS 1 it would be the greatest of them all.

Because that means there would be othet action games to compare Sekiro to and zooms don’t want that.

let me tell you the truth sekirofags are trying to overthrow bloodborne because its a ps4 exclusive if it was on pc you would hear everyone screach how its shit

It has an interconnected world, retard. And BB also had warping, are you saying BB is worse than DaS1?

Using tools and the like is part of the game. But like I said I defy anyone to film themselves taking out someone like the Spear Samurai while his mob is aggro'd onto the player. The intention is to remove the weaker threats via stealth or fighting them as individuals or small manageable groups.

>Why are RPG elements forced into every genre nowadays?

Because they give you an artifical sense of getting better at the game.

Publishers love "Roleplaying" elements because it allows them to fire off the dopamine in your brain when you see those numbers go up and you feel a sense of accomplishment.

DeS > BB = Sekiro > DS1 >>> DS2 > DS3

I'm obviously biased, because Demon's Souls at release was such a cool new experience. They should have stopped Souls after DS1. It gets more and more boring with every new entry. BB and Sekiro add much needed fresh elements to the core premise. That's why they feel so good.

>muh console wars
Nah BB was just shit, dude. Just admit it.

Seems about right

Not him but not knowing this is pretty newfaggy, newfag.

feudal japan is funamentally generic. I guess it's not technically their fault since that's the case, but it doesn't change the fact that it's generic.

>How are you punished?
Harder bosses which may require spending consumables and humanities for a start and just missing out on features of online play (like entire covenants dedicated to co-op) and even stuff like unique npc summons

>I looked up best builds in dark souls when I played it 3 years after it came out

This. Seikro is not fun

I don't like souls games. I think they insult the player's time and have artificial difficulty.

I would have been more interested if they had made it a MGS-like Tenchu sequel.

sounds like somebody is shit at Sekiro and thinks grandma butterfly is the pinnacle of tough boss fights

The setting of Tenchu Z is generic. It's not in Sekiro.

>Stop moving the goalposts.
What the actual fuck? I'm seriously trying to figure out how anyone could unironically reply with this in this conversation. This is why I can't take anyone seriously who throws out buzzwords like this. What were the goalposts originally? What have they been moved to? I seriously can't understand what must have been going through your head when you typed that

>the Spear Samurai while his mob is aggro'd onto the player
>what is mikiri counter

BB gets pc release not it was sekiros turn

>Notice how much more polished and focused From Software could make their game once they vastly cut down on the RPG elements
Have you played bloodborne?
it's basically the same in terms of focus but it has some rpg elements AND it's still more polished, better animations, better sound design along with better music.

>guys I just don't think Dark Souls is all that good and here's why
>REEEEEEE HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE MUH FAVORITE GAME REEEEEE
Why are Souls fags so hostile? Geez, learn how to take some criticism.

BB was jank as fuck desu

DS1 > DS2 > BB > DS3 = Sekiro > DeS

true power ranking, fite me

People are doing the same thing with Seikiro you homo

What spear samurai? The one in the house you meet up with Kuro in at the start? You'll fight him 1 on 1 even if you don't use stealth.

>N-NO U!
See what I'm talking about? Constant deflections and butthurt from Soulsfags.

You can see the 2nd part of the attack make contact with you.

Part one, the pick, the dodge.
Part two, the pull, you get hit by.

when you criticize sekiro reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee my game is perfect fuck you soulsfag

>2
>better than anything
Fuck off with your stale bait.

BB > DaS ≥ DeS > Sekiro > DaS2 > DaS3

DLC when?

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i played all the soulsborne games and i dont miss builds and weapon variety in the fucking slightest. none of those are any use if the game itself isn't as FUN as Sekiro.

Sekiro has a cute loli. None of the Souls game have a cute loli.
Therefore Sekiro > Souls

The buff on bosses isn't a punishment, it's to compensate for the help you have received.

Right...and with 8+ AI attacking you i'm sure they'll back off so you can fight 1v1 with the miniboss.

user said that there was no replay value since there's no variation in what the player can do in combat, the reply that he, as the player, has failed because he hasn't tried playing the game using methods that are outside of the intended way to play is moving the goalposts. Any game has infinite replayability if you just keep imposing player created handicaps.

I'm saying that the game has limits. Manageability of mobs is key. You can't trigger a bunch of enemies and then expect to win without resorting to hit-and-run or stealth. That area is one of the best examples. If other anons are implying that enemy numbers are meaningless because of items and ninja arts, then they'll have no problem triggering everyone in that area and winning.

bloodborne has one though

They could have made a new Tenchu, but they choose to make this gay shit instead...

>The buff on bosses isn't a punishment, it's to compensate for the help you have received.
??? You get punished for NOT summoning
>I'm saying that the game has limits.
By using enemies that are designed for 1v1 that you fight 1v1 with or without stealth as examples of unreasonable group fights? Ok lol

You mean that big guy with the spear you find in the place where you meet with Kuro the first time? I fought him without killing anyone beforehand. There's a path you can take that it's easy to lose the first enemy group (one that has two and two soldiers) even if they're alerted to your presence. In fact, hugging the right-hand side of the level after the Idol and using the tree trunk nearby is the fastest way to reach the spear guy. After that, you can either hit him with a stealth deathblow, or fight him immediately.

But I don't see how having some constraints some of the time is a bad thing. In almost every other action game, one of your better strategies is to eliminate weaker threats so you can focus your attention on the main target. I don't see that as limiting, unless you want to to argue that Sekiro doesn't have any degree of freedom because it doesn't allow for Musou-tier of crowd control.

I'm not too familiar with weeb pedo terms, but doesn't loli refer to female characters?

this boss giving you items thing aint working its ruins exploration for the game

how to spot a snoyboy

But she's dead and you can't even see her.

*two dogs and two soldiers

youtube.com/watch?v=SRTfcMeqhig
time to get cultured by this brit fag, DS2 is the patrician choice user

>they could have made a shitty game but they made a good one instead
How horrible.

>soibomberfag
Nope.

holy shit fagiro shills are truly NPCs

>feudal japan is funamentally generic
>medieval setting with dudes in armor and sorcerers and dragons isn't

this would bbe true if the game was only set in boletaria or undeadburg but they're not

ARPG's have never been about polished combat.
It's all about power fantasy, starting off weak and having to think carefully about how to move forward, and eventually being able to destroy anything that stands in your way with the power you've obtained, with the only challenge usually being bosses.

Sekiro and games like it don't give you as much of this feeling and that's fine. It's as much of an ARPG as the Arkham games are. I don't feel like it's trying to be an ARPG at all.

There's room for both types in the genre. If you want nice polished well designed combat, play Sekiro. If you want to play an ARPG like DS/BB and have more build variety and character customization, play those.

What? No...then you just play the game in the default way...what are you even talking about? The game increases health to compensate for the extra player running around. If you don't summon people then that buff never occurs.
Hey if items and ninja arts are so amazing then you'll have no issues doing it, right? Some bosses in DS are 1v1 fights but people have modded them to be 1v3 by multiplying the boss...and still winning.

So you avoided contact with the other AI...so you basically sued stealth. I'm not saying constraint is a bad thing. I swear people jump to defend games so rabidly that they don't even read posts correctly. I've been arguing the entire time that Sekiro doesn't have much replayability due to those limitations. I was arguing that a person cannot attach artificial player created styles and then claim the game has replayability because of that.

Sekiro doesn't strictly follow ancient Japan's mythology either. It adds a lot of concepts and designs of its own. That would be more the case with Nioh.

This

>notice how concise the game is once you take out the fun?
great thread OP you colossal faggot.

>So you avoided contact with the other AI...so you basically sued stealth
What?

But anyway, how was that not a choice? I wasn't limited to fighting an entire group of enemies. Are you saying that avoiding conflict isn't a valid choice? Do people who do ghost playthroughs or don't engage in combat in certain stealth games are somehow adhering to an "artificial" play style?

>The game increases health to compensate for the extra player running around. If you don't summon people then that buff never occurs.
While completely breaking their AI since it cant prioritize, trivializing every challenge in the game. Not summoning is a self imposed challenge that you get punished for with extra difficulty.
>Hey if items and ninja arts are so amazing then you'll have no issues doing it, right?
They're good but they can't deal with anything, are you retarded? The game never forces you to fight the midboss in a group, the midbosses that it DOES make you fight in groups if you don't cheese with stealth are either slow or have limtied movements. You can still win with defensive strats though...just like in Souls.

Why would anyone react like that?

I never thought about it until I read OP's post and think it's an interesting approach.

Now if he's right or wrong, I don't know, but I'm keeping an open mind.

maybe you should stick to skyrim

I agree. I don't really care for all of the variety in bloodborne, despite it being quite limited. I very much dislike all the variety in dark souls.

People are never happy if you play a game the way you want to. If you don't play it specifically how they did, or how it poses the most challenge, then you didn't really experience the game.

Except you did. You played it exactly how the devs intended you to. If you can stealth kill an entire group of enemies, without any sort of glitches or exploits, you are playing it as intended.

You were responding to me saying to the other anons that they couldn't fight everything in that area due to the combat system not being built for the player to manage such fights and they couldn't do so without resorting to stealth. You replied to say that you skipped the mob in that area via stealth.

But it's not self imposed since the sole intended way to play isn't "Welcome to Dark Souls, summon players". You're just wrong.

Cool, go win that fight with defensive strats. I'll wait.

yes

>But it's not self imposed since the sole intended way to play isn't "Welcome to Dark Souls, summon players". You're just wrong.

Doing your very specific mix of stealth and action isn't the sole intended way to play Sekiro either though? What lol

>Cool, go win that fight with defensive strats. I'll wait.

First show me a webm of you fighting 3 copies of Artorias at once

Sekiro sucks.

>only one weapon with two different moves that have like 4 different animations
>have to kill every single boss and enemy with the same exact moves

There's no testing out different gear to see if you can beat a boss, either you adapt to the boss's moves or you don't play.

Nigga that isn't experimentation. There is little to no experimentation or variety in Sekiro because not only are almost all of the combat arts objectively trash but the game is set up in such a way that you really can't introduce new shit to spice up a normal playthrough.

>being forced to adapt to the game is a bad thing
based retard

do you even play the games you memefetish over faggot ds3 has one, btw kill yourself

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>There's no testing out different gear to see if you can beat a boss, either you adapt to the boss's moves or you don't play.
I never tested out different gear in any Souls game. Just press circle when they attack and punish. In Sekiro, on the other hand, it's often worth it to try out your various tools if you're having trouble.

I can link you to multiple videos of people doing enemy multiply mods in Dark Souls. Shame that nothing like that happens in Sekiro, if you even search for it you just find videos of people doing hit and run tactics on mobs.

Sorry, Sekiro has a more limited play style than Dark Souls. I've never said that's a bad thing, you just can't stand someone not praising the game. This seems like a you problem.

>Shame that nothing like that happens in Sekiro
The game just came out you retard wtf are you talking about. If people are doing hit n run strats that's their problem they can just outright stunlock em with firecracker

What does that have to do with depth or difficulty in this genre? Even if we go to the far end of what's considered in-depth or difficult that formula doesn't change. You're talking about it as if the depth of Souls games would increase if you just spam dozens of enemies into a room so their "movesets overlap" and your adaptability index increases.

>You replied to say that you skipped the mob in that area via stealth
Stealth is not even needed there, that's what I was pointing out. You can be fast enough that enemies simply stop pursuing you.
Right there, you thought there was only a single way to deal with that specific area and challenge. Even if that were the case, it's just one instance among many. There's at least two situations I can think of where you're vastly outnumbered, where there's many dogs and monkeys in the same spot. You can absolutely be aggressive and make use of firecrakers and the windslash combat art or whatever it's called to hit multiple enemies at once. You can also probably stealth those sections by throwing ceramic shards and pulling one enemy at a time, as well the whistle, which can even turn enemies on each other.
Going back to the original case, you can kill everyone in that area, and use the pupeteer ninjutsu on an enemy to help you deal with the spear guy.

How is this not choice, again?

Sekiro really should have used a control scheme like Dragons Dogma or something for sword arts so you can more than just fucking ONE equipped at a time.

>In Sekiro, on the other hand, it's often worth it to try out your various tools if you're having trouble.
Except you're generally very limited in terms of how many times you can use your tool (unless you start tanking your HP for tool use) and most of the tools are just outright trash.

Which means as encounters get longer and bosses get harder, you end up using the same shit. I haven't changed my tools for 90% of the game because none of the others are worth using ever.

doturds out

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Its really two different type of games, and both have their charm.

Dark Souls feels "broken", especially later on you are constantly over or under powered, but its fun to explore and figure out different builds.

Sekiro is a more straightforward action game.

You are right though that slapping levels, skills and stats on everything ruins games. Especially Level Scaling put the concept of leveling ad absurdum. Funny thing is the developers modify level systems so that levels don't matter anymore and the game turns into a proper action game again. ridiculous.

Also, look how well Monster Hunter, kind of a level-ish game on first look, does without levels/skills/stats, while retaining its mmorpg charme and consistent improvement.

I think scratching levels and making games item centric is a pretty good idea, (e.g. look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R, PUBG etc). The next Elder Scrolls Game should adopt this.

Just accept that not everyone is going to blindly praise the game and I'm sure you'll be much happier.

Because I gave that situation to say that the combat isn't designed to face off against multiple enemies. You're trying to respond to an argument I didn't make about that area.

It objectively has a more varied and custom PLAYSTYLE than Souls. Not builds, not character customization, but playstyle-wise you can go anything between going berserk to enemies, spamming combat arts and shit, to full on stealth killing all dudes and never being seen.
That's two extremes that fit anything in between, that plus the levels being much less linear allows you to play entirely different on the same place with the same items.
I haven't seen that kind of gameplay where stealth is emphasized but combat is well developed if you're caught.

you can just pause the game is swap them out though

>You're talking about it as if the depth of Souls games would increase if you just spam dozens of enemies into a room so their "movesets overlap" and your adaptability index increases.

To a certain point yes it does increase depth since the enemies track your position and do attacks based on proximity and such meaning there's more variability and small differences snowball into different situations, along with just the fact that you can get crowded meaning you have to think about which direction to roll in instead of just relying on iframes. The problem comes when it gets too unreasonable and games give you easy ways out like Souls does, leading to degenerate strategies.

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Thats like having to pause every time you want to press r1.

but bloodbonre also cut down on the rpg shit
armor means nothing
magic is limited until late game

>the combat isn't designed to face off against multiple enemies
Except for the tools that can be used to help you in such circumstances, as I've already pointed out. We're going back full circle.
You're basically treating Sekiro as too limiting because it doesn't have musou-tier combat where you can mindlessly combo hundred of enemies at once. I don't know how else to view your argument after the initial premise was disproved.

And Bloodborne is one of the best games of all time, your point?

Sekiro has the best combat but Bloodborne is definitely the more complete package.

It has better music, story, setting, atmosphere and level design. Personally I'd probably edge BB over Sekiro but considering that BB had three games before it to 'refine' the Souls formula, I think that another game in the same vein of Sekiro could be way better than BB if From do a sequel or similar game.

If that were the case you would just adjust your weapon selection. Halberds, spears, greatswords and similar melee options would become more popular because you can wait for an opening and then use wide-arching attacks or poke through multiple enemies at once. Would it make the game more difficult? Sure. Would it add depth? I'm not sure this has anything to do with depth.

You didn't disprove anything. You literally did exactly what I said a player would do in that situation.

>combat isn't designed to face off against multiple enemies.
The literal first combat art you get is an AoE attack. The first combo from the shuriken is an AoE attack. The firecracker, an early tool, is an AoE attack.

>RPG

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You are in luck. One of their next two games is a true armored core sequel. Another is a Playstation exclusive that I don't know much about. I don't know which is releasing first though.

honestly the whirlwind attack is fucking useless along with 90% of the arts. I pretty much used double Ichimonji and never found much of a use for anything else aside from Mortal Draw. once you get the firecrackers, it is such a better option for dealing with crowds and it's also overpowered as hell against bosses.

AoE attacks are absolutely useless outside of firecracker spam because of how small their AoE is and how quickly enemies will circle around you and fuck you up.

Just wait until you get later in the game and actually fight non-braindead enemies. Or the double monkey boss.

In other words players would be encouraged to use different weapons, positioning and tactics based on situation instead of simply pressing dodge then attack, with different ones having very different effects and leading to different situations. That's depth. 1v1? All it changes is how much damage you do and how many times you press r1, you just roll and counter. That's a lack of depth, come on.

>Soulsfags crying over Sekiro because it's too hard for them
>again

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Better story and such, but I preferred Sekiro's combat.

Can you explain to me what exactly makes Sekiro difficult if you know how to deflect everything?

Because the parry window is five miles wide and I've had zero issue parrying everything I've fought, including against both versions of Owl. I find myself dying more often because the camera gets into some fuck up place and I can't see where their swing is at.

You should try looking at what kind of attack it is before you say dumb things.

>You literally did exactly what I said a player would do in that situation
No shit. What's next? The player is also not going out of bounds and has to press buttons to win. Wow, I need my choice FromSoft, you fucking hacks.

The problem here is that your statements are devoid of substance that you leave people guessing what you even mean, and when someone presents you with alternative strategies for any one situation, you go "yeah but that's intended" and that is a gotcha somehow. Learn to articulate your points better.

> Mashing R1 gets you killed

lmao, not in mainline souls games.

>Can you explain to me what exactly makes Sekiro difficult
I dunno, ask Soulsfags, they're the ones crying over it.
>parry window is five miles wide
Yes, it is, but that doesn't stop it from requiring a lot more skill than R1 R1 dodge back rinse repeat of Souls games.

99% of people love it, don't get confused by the shitposters.

That's not depth. The game would just advertise a different playstyle.

> upgrading the umbrella

literally why? just deflect. shuriken upgrades are great.

>mashing R1 or dodge gets you killed

Except the best weapons are things like the Sellsword Twinswords in DS3 or the Saw Cleaver in BB which are powerful as fuck because you can dish out a ridiculous amount of damage and stunlock by just mashing R1

Try playing through BB with the Saw Cleaver and that shit is just so much better than the other two options its not even funny. Some enemies can be beaten so easily by just stunlocking them to death with the basic cleaver combo while the Hunter Axe and Threaded Cane just do not have the same capabilities. For example the cane is so inconsistent with its stunlock and the basic string is just a tad too slow sometimes to really lock enemies down

>im autistic and can play some game for a very long time even tough most people are not like me you should take my example as absolute therefore I proved my point

The upgraded versions are good against headless/shichimi warriors and demon of hatred.

>Right...and with 8+ AI attacking you i'm sure they'll back off so you can fight 1v1 with the miniboss
Are you dumb ? Mikiri counter has a gigantic activation window making it easy to murder him even if other shit is distracting you. In fact you can kill him by just baiting him into doing thrusts and mikiri countering them until his posture is broken

Do you even know what depth means? It's not the number of mechanics, nor is it the complexity. It's the amount of game states that are actually relevant to the player. So in Souls it doesn't matter if an enemy is at the center of an arena or on the left side when you're fighting 1v1 because you always dodge using iframes. When you're fighting multiple enemies their relative positioning starts mattering, hence creating more depth

Yea, but the game lets you tune the difficulty balance as you wish. Souls games are all terribly unbalanced, but that's one of the reasons that make them fun. Saw cleaver may be effective, but every single weapon in BB is viable and only, slightly less effective than the saw. Also, saw is vanilla as fuck.

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oh yeah it's definitely a lot more fun to play around with all the different weapons

i just thought it was flat out wrong that mashing R1 was not a viable strategy (which it definitely is)

This is an awful argument, because you can do this to literally any game and make it sound boring.

Doom
>m1 strafe m1m1m1m1m1 strafe strafe
Sekiro
>R1 L1L1L1L1L1R1L1R1R1R1
Megaman
>jump shoot shoot shoot jump shoot

Please get a better argument

>It's the amount of game states that are actually relevant to the player.

That's not the only thing that matters. DMCs combat system has a lot of depth even though it doesn't force you to get familiarized with any of its combos or achieve SSS-ranks. Technically you can just spam stinger at everything and get through the game. You're backpedaling on the depth =/= difficulty contention that we've already discussed.

Good how? I know the deflect window is larger using the umbrella, but is that all? does it block status effects like terror/burn when just blocking with it or something.

Imagine being so delusional nigger
Sekiro>3>BB>1=2

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DMC gets its depth through the scoring systems that makes those states relevant to the player, without the scoring indeed the games would be quite shallow despite providing a variety of moves and basically require you to come up with your own rules to introduce depth into the game.

>You're backpedaling on the depth =/= difficulty contention
You don't know what you're talking about.

God awful taste

Sekiro is a boring, limited, snorefest.

>DMC gets its depth through the scoring systems that makes those states relevant to the player
the scoring system is pretty fucking shallow. it only consists of using different attacks and not getting hit

No DMC has style points which encourages you to max out the style gauge, simply reaching SSS isn't enough you have to work out ways to reach it quickly and maintain it after that. And yes that's the extent of its depth, everything else past that is breadth or variety similar to those Dishonoured videos that creatively use the game's mechanics to look cool and amusing.

If you don’t feel that’s the case that’s fine. I do genuinely feel like soulsborne games are mainly just dodge and poke though. Miyazaki went way too hard on his giant fetish, and it’s not rewarding when most bosses and even many enemies have absolutely zero physical reaction to you hitting them. Meanwhile in Sekiro even though Miyazaki still shoves his big guy fetish in, you can still straight up fight them and they block and parry or cancel the windup of their moves to try to block if you attack them.
They’re both pretty one note, don’t get me wrong, I just prefer the one note song that’s more engaging and actively action oriented. First-trying a boss blind in Sekiro felt awesome and legitimate because I could do it actively, trying to do that in soulsborne for many cases was just a matter of tedium and constantly waiting and rolling to get your safe hits in. I dunno I’m probably just ‘bad’ at dark souls but I don’t wanna be good if it means taking 15 minutes playing defensively at a Boss.

>you have to work out ways to reach it quickly and maintain it after that
and guess what, that too only requires you to keep on using different attacks and not getting hit

It's not normal to sleep for more than half the day, user. Are you sure you aren't depressed?

>DMC gets its depth through the scoring systems that makes those states relevant to the player

No, the combat would still be in-depth if the scoring system wasn't there. It's what the system allows, not what it demands. Many construction and management simulations have a lot of depth but don't require you to engage in any of it. For instance, you can create a successful park in Roller Coaster Tycoon by just spamming uninspired default coasters everywhere. And yet RCT has more depth than a game than Ikaruga despite Ikaruga demanding you to engage in more of its systems.

clips.twitch.tv/NastyArtsyPepperoniBIRB
Reminder these are the kind of Soulsfags that try to bring down Sekiro on Yea Forums.

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holy shit lmfao

NG+ giving the charm to Kuro is good too though.
You don’t get away with that spamming block to parry anymore

Different attacks give different amounts of style so there's some depth in working out how quickly you can max it out but yes, what's your point? I never said DMC is the deepest combat system out there or anything like that

>You'd have a point if Bloodborne wasn't their best game by a country mile.
Bloodborne is poorly balanced. Arcane builds get fuck all in terms of tools, runes, and weapons until the second half of the game. The quicksilver bullet limit is way too low, too, and there's no way to naturally raise it beyond wasting your rune slots. Bloodtinge also feels like an afterthought, because it doesn't raise blood bullet count, and the two trick weapons that scale off of it scale more from Skill. No two stats synergize as well as Strength and Arcane, and Strength/Arcane builds can use 90% of the weapons in the game effectively, which kills build variety.

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Which I hope they explore more in whatever their followup is to Sekiro. There are combat arts and skill books found by exploring the world, but they’re limited and combat arts sadly aren’t that good. I think your idea when executed correctly would really tie it all together.

>so there's some depth in working out how quickly you can max it out
not really. you can easily wail with different attacks and get that SSS rank and keep it.
the point is that there is no depth to DMC's score system. The combat has massive depth but none of that is ever needed for the scoring

>It's what the system allows, not what it demands.
Meaningless, by this standard most games have near infinite depth because the you'll be counting retarded shit like standing 1 pixel to the right or left. The sims and construction games example confuses depth with complexity, a game can be complex but shallow or simple but deep, this should be obvious. Besides at some point the stuff you're talking about becomes more like a toy than a game, that is it becomes about exploring a system for the sake of it rather than with the greater purpose of playing by specific rules and making interesting and effective choices with specific gameplay goals in mind.

How many threads on Yea Forums shitting on Sekiro do you think this guy made? 5?

>getting trashed in the extended tutorial area
like pottery

>The combat has massive depth but none of that is ever needed for the scoring
>what is Quadruple S

The people who want more weapons are shitters that don’t understand how action games work. With a single weapon, each battle has many more options and ways to get good. You can try to get some hits in during wind ups, each battle can be designed to balance aggresion and defense and so on because the devs know how many hits you can get in in a given period of time and how you can react. In ARPGs, battles are diluted to enable every kind of weapon, which ironically ends up giving up less options.

a tool that further deepends the combat system but is never needed for scoring

>you have no idea dude

>Fucking done
>don't even care
Voice quivers like he's about to cry.

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Forsen, a handicapped borderline retard who refuses to read or learn anything, beat artorias on his second try blind because he found the biggest weapon he could and the Havel armor set and realized he could just brute force through everything spamming r1 20 times a second. He didn’t know what any of the stats including ‘poise’ meant until after the fight when he was flooded with messages from salty people who thought he’d be stuck on him for hours saying he ‘ruined his experience of the game’ or some asinine shit

Stats are literally meaningless in souls games, they would be better off getting rid of them. Their only purpose is narrow gameplay variety within runs by restricting weapons and magic styles, and to allow shitters to grind until they can cheese bosses.

Sekiro is masterfully balanced and tuned exactly to the developer's desires which accentuates the high tension risk-filled gameplay they were always striving for with the souls series.

I hope they nix the pseudo-rpg mechanics and leave the weapon and armor variety in the next souls game.

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but souls/bloodborne are better games?

Just because you're autistic and can play the same game for +1000 hour doesn't mean it's better, it just means you have no life. I for one enjoy shorter, non bloated games because I have other hobbies.

bullshit

>balanced/tuned

except every enemy has hyperpoise and 1 shots you.

lol

>Meaningless, by this standard most games have near infinite depth because the you'll be counting retarded shit like standing 1 pixel to the right or left.

Wrong. The question is whether something is useful regardless of its necessity. For example, Pokemon has dozens of Pokemon and moves that are useless in singleplayer or multiplayer. There is no added layer of depth here. In DMC every combo and move has a purpose and can be used to chain into or out of other combos and most of them can have different purposes depending on enemy type and whether they are on the ground or in the air. That's why removing something out of the move-list in DMC is noticeable because certain combos become impossible to perform. I'm not conflating filler with depth. The same item in an MMO with 500 different color variations and slightly different stats isn't depth, we can agree on that. But that's not what I'm talking about. Distinguishable variance and utility of variance is what gives something depth.

I love Sekiro and found it easier than any other souls game I’ve played
I cannot fathom how drilled into a certain gameplay mindset someone must be that they find Sekiro more difficult than souls

Absolutely seething. Souls games objectively have the worst combat of any modern game.

It's tuned to be that way.

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Chalice dungeons and forced linearity make it incredibly unfun to do repeated playthroughs. Gems might the worst idea implemented in a modern from game yet

>Almost every single arcane tool is not only viable, but effective.
Only if you pump arcane to 70 or 99. Chalice dungeon farming is to get runes for your beater weapon, which you absolutely need because Quicksilver bullet limit is too fucking low. Arcane is a distraction from just mashing R1 on enemies, it's not a replacement.

Sounds like a taste issue being mistaken for objectivity desu.
There's nothing more polished about any of it in bloodbourne, I think you just like the lovecraftian victorian setting more.

>lol

yes it's so fun when my attacks cant make an enemy flinch but I get guard broken in 2 hits.

then you would love nioh

It needs scoring to be used properly

Based Enshin

but it's never required for getting good scores.

Positive I’ve seen this guy in this very thread
Maybe not him the individual, but ‘this guy’ for sure

The saw is so satisfying I don’t care if it’s the default weapon

I want to fuck Kuro.

>The same item in an MMO with 500 different color variations and slightly different stats isn't depth, we can agree on that.
Why not? By your standards the different stats provide some variance that can have gameplay impact even if they are minor and supplanted by other armor sets, same as moves in DMC. If a certain combo isn't possible then you replace it with a different combo, they both serve the same gameplay function with very negligible differences, same as swapping out near identical armor sets. Scoring systems help alleviate this by giving a clear goal which allows these minor differences in property actually become part of a game's depth, whether that scoring system is scoring or time doesn't really matter.

agreed