Tfw you grew up on lots of Western stuff like LOTR...

They've been aping the west for the entire last century. You're perfectly sane.

No, because like most people I played both. How the fuck did you avoid JRPGs?

I can't relate because anything japanese has never been popular in my country and all I see on this board is random anime face with a sword #2381239

>*puts entire party to sleep after beating single skeleton in the middle of the dungeon to replenish HP*
>ah yes I prefer western RPG games they are realistic, they respect women and most importantly they don't sexualize children

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Play non-jrpg Japanese games bro, they're pretty sweet (DMC, MGS/MGR, Soulsborne). Other than that yeah shallow JRPG's are stale as hell but that has nothing to do with growing up with LOTR/DND since that shit is stale and shallow as hell, just had a lot of different shallow characters. What's the ol' Bethesda saying? Wide as an ocean deep as a puddle? That shit.

You can always just not take it extremely seriously and instead try to enjoy the often zany nature they have. I have a lot of love for WRPGs but some of them really make it difficult with how uninteresting their presentation ends up being at first glance. Sure, I'll find something that pulls me in, but JRPGs tend to be a lot more upfront on the wilder aspects of their world.

Also,
>40K
>can't see the appeal in Jrpgs because they're too shallow and inauthentic
Fucking hell man, if anything gets close to being as absurdly retarded as JRPGs can end up being, it's 40K.

I grew up in japan so I never became a weeb, I became a westaboo (halo and star wars)

yu-gi-oh? ultraman? kamen rider? give me a break

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>tfw grew up with western stuff and some jap stuff, but got to smart and now see them all as shallow

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If I were to choose between Atelier game and any random amiga-tier autistic blobber I'd pick Atelier anytime

This but totally the opposite of this. Japanese shit is absolute trash 70% percent of the time, 100% of the time.

I grew up with all of that and thats exactly why i love jrpgs now as older guy
Its something completely different from what i had as a kid

>summoning isn't summoning because the summoning mechanic they use is not the summoning mechanic I like

>most importantly they don't sexualize children
Why would you want games to sexualize children?
Why would anyone want to see innocents hurt?

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>plays heal cycle simulator 20394589
lets just agree that turn based rpgs suck

>literally the next game, summons actually fight in battle

>hurt

The summoning mechanic they use is not a summoning mechanic at all. Is Fireball a summoning spell because you summon a ball of fire to deal damage to your enemies? Bahamut is just a flavor of that.
I love Final Fantasy, but it's an adventure game with RPG elements.

if we exclude turn based games west is only left with Diablo

If we exclude games that use turns, wouldn't we be excluding any and all tabletop RPGs, you know, the actual namesakes of the genre?

see

Well I'm playing Sekiro and it's more enjoyable than sleep inducing d&d shit

>>literally the next game, summons actually fight in battle
Only one creature, and it removes the party from the battlefield for some reason. That's an incredibly shallow and simplistic implementation of summoning. It's more like some combat mini-game than true summoning.

In Baldur's Gate, you can summon numerous creatures to fight alongside your party members, and you can also summon useful items. It's a much deeper and compelling system.

It summons a fucking creature that performs an attack of its own. Said attack is intrinsically tied to this creature, it cannot be performed without summoning the creature first. Just because it's an extremely limited summon, does not make anything other than summoning.

I'm playing Myst and it's way better than nipponese historical revisionism.

>trying to argue with wrpg kun

>>summoning isn't summoning because the summoning mechanic they use is not the summoning mechanic I like
What summoning mechanic? What is being 'summoned' in FF9? By your logic, any action you can perform in an RPG can be qualified as a summon.

Why are westerners so insecure about Japs being better than them at game design?

Myst is barely a game

Can you perform a fireball without casting (summoning) Fireball? Fireball is intrinsic to the Fireball summon.

>say something completely wrong
>get called out
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STAHP THAT DOESN'T COUNT

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It's more a game than Sekiro is an RPG.

>and it removes the party from the battlefield for some reason
The party backtracks because said summons generally have an array of attacks that would want any and everyone to take 3 steps back to not get caught in the crossfire.
>It's more like some combat mini-game than true summoning.
We are literally going right down to "my summoning is better than your summoning" are we?

>It summons a fucking creature that performs an attack of its own. Said attack is intrinsically tied to this creature, it cannot be performed without summoning the creature first. Just because it's an extremely limited summon, does not make anything other than summoning.
What is the point of calling it a summon if it functions exacty like a normal attack?

How is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp? Summons were a feature in RPGs long before Final Fantasy even existed, much less started featuring them, and they have always referred to summoning creatures that remain by your side, not one-off attacks. It's Final Fantasy that misused the term.

He didn't make the image an never argued the point that it's not "real summoning". He's just saying it's shallow and underdeveloped as a mechanic.
I'm the one who said it's not actually summoning and I concede that I got BTFO. I haven't played FFX yet.
Is the PC HD port fine? I also have a PS2.

What's your excuse now, faggot?

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>Americans wake up
>Number of wojiack, reddit frog and bait post increases

Hmm, I sense a pattern here....

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Your opinion is garbage. Anyone who pretends LOTR is shit faps to kitty girls and reptilian genitals

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>nugamers say they hate JRPGs
>play shitty new western RPGs that have the exact same lack of choice, overbearing, annoying, inescapable story, and other bullshit JRPGs have
lel

give me the best jrpg game to start with for someone who has never played one, would prefer a newer one

>Why are westerners so insecure about Japs being better than them at game design?
Then why are entire GENRES of Jap games blatant copy-pastas of western games? For example, Pretty much every thing people associate with traditional jrpgs like FF, DQ and SMT was copied from western rpgs: the party-based combat system right down to specific spells and classes/jobs, the overworld, even the tradition of getting an airship, etc.

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Yugioh is unironically an amazing card game

>TES game
>masterpiece

I'm a bit confused as to why we're comparing a fantasy novel to a subgenre of vidya.
Everyone rides the new Dragon Quest's dick, it's available on PC. I myself have played only a few, but Final Fantasy 7 is a good place to start, I think. A good story, somehow beautiful world and several good twists, one of which you definitely already have spoiled for you.

patrician

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>What is the point of calling it a summon if it functions exacty like a normal attack?
Because it summons something to then do something. The fact that they don't stick around is merely a limitation. It's still a summon, just limited. Splitting hairs over this is semantic bullshit.

>Can you perform a fireball without casting (summoning) Fireball? Fireball is intrinsic to the Fireball summon.
user I honestly hope you just typed this while eating or something, because even pretending to be retarded on this scale is pretty goddamn bad. You cast a Fireball spell to cast a Fireball. You summon Bahamut to cast Mega Flare. You cannot cast Mega Flare on your own, or even if you can do something similar, not to that effect. Is this somehow difficult to grasp?

>This damage controlling
People would take western games more seriously if they weren't total shit right now.

Doom Eternal looks good, yeah, but that's it, another Doom game

Fpbp

>best game of any genre
>new
Zoomer out

I will never understand why people ride Morrowind's dick just because it has good writing and art direction. No, the insane builds aren't a unique selling point, every other WRPG has fun broken builds.

>Jrpgs are in genral better than all of them
>Most praised JRPG has a guy with a sword twice his height and you fight monsters that look likes a house with a canon on its roof
>Modern "masterpiece" is about teenagers walking into t.vs
t.zoomer who hasnt played either

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I really liked jrpgs when I was younger, but now I find them to be trash.

Yeah, 40K is all about depth and authenticity. I feel you man

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>takes place in an abandoned mansion
Fucking hell are you going to scream every team something remotely asian starts on a dark and stormy night?

Based. Honestly, I can't stand most Japanese games. I'm glad I went straight to playing FPS, RTS, strategy, CRPG/MMOs instead of playing console games forever. West is just way better.

Soul.

user I'm not in your argument at all just a spectator but you are the one splitting hairs. That other user is right. A FF summon is functionally the exact same as a spell. Spend mp, damage attack happens. There's no "summon" mechanic happening that's any different than just a different kind of animation for a damage spell

redpilled

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>Fucking hell are you going to scream every team something remotely asian starts on a dark and stormy night?
Are you just going to ignore the billion other things they have in common? The controls, interface, game mechanics, even the EXACT same jump scores.

I've played both, planescape is incredible, Morrowind is garbage

You don't understand that each of these individual pieces represents a highly modern and inventive version of the classic fantasy lexicon presented in a completely forward thinking way. You have no imagination.

k

What difference does it make if Bahamut's spell is called Mega Flare? Summoning him does nothing but cast Mega Flare. Summoning Bahamut to cast Mega Flare is tantamount to casting Mega Flare yourself, which you cannot do.
We're arguing semantics about a shallow mechanic. I'm going to honest with you, I don't find much issue with this because FF7 is ridiculously lacking in RPG-inspired mechanics that expecting it to do summons justice is really cheeky. I'm just salty because summons are so slow and have zero effect besides the casting of a spell. I'm playing a JRPG, why can't this game tell I'm a busy man and respect my time?

lol.

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It's absolutely hilarious that the only defense JRPG fans have ever had is to cherry-pick some dumb Western shit like . But if you made a generator that pulled random lines from cRPGs and weighed them against JRPGs, it's obvious which one would come out at the higher reading level / more intellectually engaging. Then they try to call you a pseudo-intellectual for enjoying things that are obviously more complicated and make some kind of effort to engage the academic canon.

JRPGs are mostly written for actual children like 8-15. The best they do at engaging anything remotely philosophical is incredibly hamfisted Christian symbolism or surface level allusions to entry-level folklore.

Can 100% relate. Even though I played a bunch of jrpgs in the 90s when I was a teen I could never really get into the genre and enjoyed them less and less the older I got. Besides, their "turn based" combat is fucking trash.

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Man, 40K is my fav setting ever, I wasn't trying to shit on it, just taking OP's bait because I have nothing better to do
Actually, I think I'll go paint some minis instead of shitposting

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>I'm playing a JRPG, why can't this game tell I'm a busy man and respect my time?
I'd argue why you're playing an RPG if you're a busy man to begin with, considering it's pretty well-known that they tend to be very time consuming but whatever.

Image unrelated? Because neither of those games are RPGs, they're action games with superficial RPG elements.

YS does have better combat than The Witcher, that much is obvious.

I'm kidding, I know it's kind of a dumb complaint, but it's pretty much the only reason I'm never repaying FF7.

Are you saying that isn't cherrypicked?

>The best they do at engaging anything remotely philosophical is incredibly hamfisted Christian symbolism or surface level allusions to entry-level folklore.
t. never played Xenoblade or Persona 5

t.boomer

They're both press X to win. Enough said.

But a ton of good western games have been released in the last years.
D:OS, Shadow Tactics, Kenshi, RoR 2. Underrail, Expeditions Series.

WRPGs take themselves seriously. JRPGs don't.

How is it cherrypicked? Are you seriously arguing jrpgs offer more interactivity than wrpgs on average?

Take for example being able to attack and kill npcs. Outside of Dark Souls (which is unconventional and hardly representative of jrpgs) I can't think of a single jrpg that allows this, whereas this is a basic feature present in almost every wrpg.

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I feel you, brother. My father was a classic boomer-- never liked when there was "japanese shit" on the TV.

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Dumb frogposter

As much as I love WRPGs, it's usually more for the mechanics than the story. I'd honestly take some entry-level symbolism over some of the incredibly dry stuff I stomached over the years, particularly from the era when large-scale RPGs really blew up and everything had to be vast and boring.

>WRPGs take themselves seriously. JRPGs don't.
What bizarro world do you live in? Most jrpgs are incredibly po-faced or even downright edgy with how seriously they take their epic plots, which typically revolve around a bunch of teenagers killing some corrupt god-like being.

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Dark Souls is a WRPG made by a Japanese developer.

never played jrpgs, doubt i ever will

but jrpgs have one thing going for them, they've practically stayed the same

wrpgs went to shit somewhere in 2008-2009, maybe even earlier. there has been a resurgence in the past few years but it's mostly indies/AA lvl.

Imagine thinking posting a retarded jpg is making a point

That's exactly how they don't take themselves seriously. Nobody believes that shit is serious except maybe 15 year old kids.

>How is it cherrypicked?
It claimed that JRPG summons are cutscene spells, and used pictures of FF9 characters do demonstrate this despite the fact that the very next game and other series like had proper summons. Way to change the subject, though

>Persona 5
>teenagers killing god
>premise
Yaldy appears at the literal final hour, how is that the fucking premise. It's like if I said the premise of VtmB is chasing a sarcophagus like it's the Pink Panther diamond.

>persona 5
>teenagers killing god
Huh?

How much do you want to bet the poster played less than three games on this image

>That's exactly how they don't take themselves seriously.
So we weren't supposed to take Aeris dying seriously, or all the hours upon hours of dramatic cutscenes jrpgs are filled with? Jrpgs clearly are aimed at telling serious dramatic stories. I have no idea how you could be so in denial about this.

Many wrpgs don't even have any cutscenes, much less dramatic ones. On top of that, the stories in wrpgs tend to have a 'looser' tone, due to being driven by the player's actions. Not to mention comedic wrpgs are arguably more common than comedic jrpgs.

>the only counter-argument he could find is a japanese wizardry clone
Good job on completely undermining your own argument, you dumb weeb.

>NO THAT DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE [INSERT ARBITRARY REASON]
lol. Also
>all dungeon crawlers are wizardry clones
You might be retarded

Dramatic doesn't mean serious unless you think something like DBZ is also serious. Somebody dying doesn't make the rest of a story great.

I grew up on western RPGs as well but as time went on and I got older I started enjoying JRPGs more because I realized I actually wanted to play video games.

Why a bitch gotta lie?

>jrpgs: diverse settings and artstyles
>wrpgs
>always realistic style, either rips off Tolkien or Star Wars/Star Trek

>Way to change the subject, though
What subject changing? The subject of that image was never exclusively about summons, as it also mentioned thief skills, which similarly tend to be almost non-existent in jrpgs.

And no, finding one or two jrpgs with summons (which are still more simplistic and shallow in implementation than their wrpg equivalent) doesn't prove anything. There are exceptions to every rule, after all. Especially since the vast majority of rpgs made come from Japan. Check out the annual rpg listings on Wikipedia. 95% of rpgs released in any given year are from Japan. Despite that, you struggled to come up with even a single jrpg that contains basic wrpg features. Quite telling, don't you think?

The point is that 99.99999% offer less interactivity in their game mechanics than wrpgs. It applies to every facet of gameplay, not just summons. Take magic in general. In a classic WRPG like Baldur's Gate, 95% of the spells don't even deal damage. Instead, they have some non-direct effect like turning you invisible, conjuring illusions or creating long-lasting environmental hazards (Stinking Cloud, Grease, etc.) And what few damaging spells there are, generally aren't particularly effective.

In jrpgs on the other hand, most spells are either elementally themed damage spells (Fire1/Fire2/Fire3/Fire4, Ice1/Ice2/Ice3/Ice4, Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4) or buffs/debuffs (giving yourself +20% attack power or lowering the enemy's attack power by 20%). There are status effects, but they are generally not effective as damaging spells and bosses are usually outright immune.

I would assume this difference boils down to wrpgs taking influence from tabletop games whereas jrpgs don't.

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i grew up with that but my only intolerance is for 10 minute long cutscenes followed by 10 minute long cutscenes

the games and stories are alright
it's just man, if i wanted to watch something, i'd watch something
i'm not playing games to walk from cutscene to cutscene, i want to push buttons sometimes, it doesn't even have to be combat, just let me do something

>I grew up on western RPGs as well but as time went on and I got older I started enjoying JRPGs more because I realized I actually wanted to play video games.
Are you sure you wouldn't rather watch a movie instead and that's why you started enjoying jrpgs more?

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>jrpgs: diverse settings and artstyles
>wrpgs
>always realistic style, either rips off Tolkien or Star Wars/Star Trek

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Nah, I tend to hate fuckers like OP. They're very elitist and have nostalgia for boring-ass shitty games.

>wrpg
>have to install twenty mods juat to get the game to work properly
>combat is always so shit to the point where even the biggest fans admit its bad
>all of this just for a story thats just lord of the rings, because if it isnt wrpg fans woulsnt call it a "real" rpg

t. I've played skyrim and nothing else

Is this supposed to change my mind? Even though the right ia just anime literally everything on the left looks like it was drawn by the same person.

JRPGs and WRPGs try to be different things so whats the problem?

>>all of this just for a story thats just lord of the rings

>implying that lotr is badly written
>implying that rpgs, whether from the east or west, have stories remotely as good as lotr

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I have to name one of them objectively better than the other, I literally cannot function unless I can definitely prove this.

Cringe.

Persona is gay I agree. As much of a higher-than-thou faggot it makes me sound like, I prefer mainline SMT, among other JRPGs that have actual gameplay. Western RPGs often have a rich world with awesome lore backed by believable writing, but they're all so mind numbingly easy. Yes, even something like Wizardry you can breeze through combat without even thinking.

>I prefer JRPGs with ~5 hours of good content in the beginning, followed by 40-50 hours of bullshit, followed by another good ~5 hours of content

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Whether its good or bad your agree that wrpgs ripping it off for 50 years now has gotten old right?

Aren't old Wizardry's supposed to be the hardest games ever? Especially 4.

Dude, just admit you got caught being ignorant. You're just spouting pure bull
> conjuring illusions or creating long-lasting environmental hazards (Stinking Cloud, Grease, etc.
You can do all these things in Pokemon. Next you'll say that it doesn't count for some arbitrary reason instead of admitting your ignorance and bias

>Underrail, D:OS and Kenshi don’t have gameplay.
Hell, I have too restart Underrail 2 times because I was gettin my shit kicked out in Old Junkyard.

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4 is fucking stupid yeah, but Wizardry games are more you playing against the dice than anything else. The dungeons can kill you if you step on the wrong tile and the enemies can de-level you and steal key items, which is fine and all. But, you know the surefire method to get around this? Grinding. You reach a certain level and all encounters become nothing to worry about. It's stupid, but that's how the games become non-bullshit. It's almost like you're supposed to grind because of the amount of backtracking or save reloading you're going to have to do. Just spam your strongest spell and you're set.

The original Fallout games I remember having a tough time too. There's some level of blame you can lay on yourself for fucking builds up but most of the times you're going to die is because of the roll of the dice.

>You can do all these things in Pokemon.
Source please?

Aeris dying got to me just because that was the first time I saw something like that happen in a game. At this point though I expect characters to die because it's something writers abuse to get cheap feels out of you.

I grew up playing final fantasy, MGS, chrono trigger, etc. But also Diablo, HoMM, Age of empires/mythology, warcraft, etc. I don't understand why there needs to be some rivalry here where people can only enjoy one side, they're both worthwhile. Jap games have better gameplay usually though.

Yeah fallout 1 is like that. Never give Ian a SMG. Underrail is like fallout but with good gameplay, the reason I had to restart was because I fucked up my builds, still a pretty challenging game even if you have the right build though.

>source
Shoot yourself. You never sourced any of your blatant lies.
Google Stealth Rock, Substitute, Sandstorm, Hail, and Follow Me.

>Dude, just admit you got caught being ignorant. You're just spouting pure bull
No, you're the one spouting pure bull. Which is why you have yet to address a single thing I said. Again, are you seriously arguing jrpgs offer more interactivity and ways to mess with the world than wrpgs? Even the biggest jrpg fans in the world wouldn't make this claim.

Why are you so intent on spreading this false narrative?

I'll look into the game, you've caught my interest.

> you have yet to address a single thing I said.
You have proven time and time again that you refuse to argue in good faith. Anytime I prove one of your """""""""""facts""""""""" wrong, you just say it doesn't count. And now you're trying to make me out to be a liar? Go dilate on resetera you tranny nigger

>You can do all these things in Pokemon.
You absolutely can't, considering Pokemon is menu-based combat. It doesn't have a battlefield combatants can traverse, so how exactly are you creating environmental hazards that affect the battlefield?

I think they're talking about status alignments, even those are absolutely standard in every rpg.

>t. literally never played the game

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>You have proven time and time again that you refuse to argue in good faith.
Again, reply to the points I raised. STOP avoiding them and strawmanning/insulting me.

Name a single jrpg besides Dark Souls that lets you freely kill npcs.

Name a single jrpg that has a stealth system with basic features like line of sight and sound propagations, creating distractions, hiding bodies, etc.

Name a single jrpg with as much spell variety as the Baldur's Gate games.

What is even your argument here? That jrpgs and wrpgs are totally the same genre and share the same features and design philosohy? If that's the case, why are you so adamant on defending jrpgs? Why are you a jrpg fan, if jrpgs are so interchangeable with wrpgs according to you?

You are contradicting your own argument.

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Nice, hope you enjoying it. It’s one of the best RPG in this decade.

And again, how are those environmental hazards? There is no environment in Pokemon combat, since there is no battlefield.

These are just buffs/debuffs. The description of this technique even says as much: "sets an entry hazard AROUND THE TARGET POkemon." Not on the battlefield (because there is none), but on a target Pokemon.

>OP didnt mention any game in particular
>All those games are shallow shit
weak cope

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>using pokemon as an example fo sophisticated RPG combat
>a series that took more than a decade before implementing fights with more than 2 participants
>a series specifically aimed at 4 year olds.

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Are these threads just filled with poor people? Your acting like the existence of one genre is directly threatening the prosperity of the other.
Why not just buy (or better yet, pirate and emulate) both lmao

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Have fun, OP.

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because getting both isn't the point, the point is to be superior.

>TOP avoiding them and strawmanning/insulting me.
Now you're claiming I'm strawmanning/insutling?
>Name a single jrpg with as much spell variety as the Baldur's Gate games.
FF7
>Name a single jrpg that has a stealth system with basic features like line of sight and sound propagations, creating distractions, hiding bodies, etc.
Etrian Odyseey
Persona 5
>And again, how are those environmental hazards?
Because they are hazards in the environment
There is no environment in Pokemon combat, since there is no battlefield.
Why because you say so?
>These are just buffs/debuffs. The description of this technique even says as much: "sets an entry hazard AROUND THE TARGET POkemon." Not on the battlefield (because there is none), but on a target Pokemon.
It remains in effect even after the pokemon are switch/killed/etc.
You're being willfully ignorant at this point
Name another Turn based RPG with a tournament league
>>a series that took more than a decade before implementing fights with more than 2 participants
Literally false

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I honestly never played anything japanese aside of dynasty warriors.

avatarfagging is against the rules

which is entirely subjective and merely an excuse to shitpost

>>Name a single jrpg with as much spell variety as the Baldur's Gate games.
>FF7

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jegged.com/Games/Final-Fantasy-VII/Materia/Full-List.html
OH NO NO NO NO NO NO NO *WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
GET UTTERLY DABBED ON

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You can count in your fingers the number of truly great western games and they are mostly two decades old shit like planescape torment, fallout 1 and 2 and stuff. As for japanese games, there's every single classic from the nes all the way up to the ps2 era, spanning across multiple genres.

ITT: Boomers who don't know what Persona 5 was about and zoomers who haven't played Fallout 1 or 2.

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>FF7

>Not a single spell for non-combat purposes (e.g. teleportation, opening locks, etc.)
>Not a single spell that alters the environment
>Not a single spell that summons creatures and items
>Not a single spell that has an area of effect (spells either have ONE or ALL targets)
>Vastly less spell variety in general (e.g. petrify in ff7 is just a generic debuff, in Baldur's Gate any party member afflicted with it will permanently die if someone attacks their petrified body, they shatter in pieces, making resurrection possible)

You are retarded.

>Etrian Odyseey
>Persona 5
This is complete bullshit and you know it. The fact that combat takes place on a separate screen from exploration, and that enemies are essentially invisible (an entire mob of enemies can be represented by one model during exploration) makes any sort of stealth system impossible. Those games just have the typical 'hit enemies from behind to get a free round in combat' gimmick that almost every jrpg has. That's not stealth.

And pray tell, how exactly do you hide bodies of your enemies in Etrian Odyssey/Persona? How do you deliberatly make loud noises to lure enemies in a certain direction?

>Because they are hazards in the environment
Are you genuinely this retarded? There is no environment in Pokemon. So shit like Sandstorm just affects all participants. Its the same shit as spells in other jrpgs that affect ALL targets.

An example of a spell that affects the battlefield would be something like Grease in Baldur's GAte. It creates a slippery oil fiield around a certain radius. Characters will only be affected if they step on the ground that the oil field is covering, and if they manage to move away from it, they will no longer be affected. When you use Grease, you have to think about which specific spot is the best choice to place it on. In other words: you have to take the environment into account. This aspect of combat is non-existent i Pokemon.

>>Not a single spell for non-combat purposes (e.g. teleportation, opening locks, etc.)
Your first greentext and it's already wrong

Persona enemies are not invisible and EO has FOEs, which are also visible. Way to prove you played NEITHER of those
>Are you genuinely this retarded? So shit like Sandstorm just affects all participants. Its the same shit as spells in other jrpgs that affect ALL targets.
First of all, Nice ad hom. Especially after you had the nerve to call me insulting despite the fact that I was NOTHING short of mature and intellectual. Second of all, Sandstorm LITERALLY changes the weather. WHICH IS PART OF THE ENVIRONMENT. The fact that you LITERALLY can't this proves you have no clue what you're talking about. Third of all, name a single JRPG spell that functions the same. You cannot. Stay seething

>Your first greentext and it's already wrong
BY all means, point out the error of my way? What, shit like No-Encounter thats bog standard stuff in every jrpg? Fine, thats 1 non-combat "spell" and even that only highlights how shallow magic system in FF7 is compared to Baldur's Gate, where you have invisibility spells that not only allow you to move past enemies undetected (remember, unlike ff7 bg enemies are actually visible in the game world), but can be used for a variety of different purposes as well.

And how convenient that you ignored every other point I raised about the lackluster spell variety in FF7.

>Persona enemies are not invisible
They essentially are, since they are represented with a single blob during exploration. Upon initiating combat, more enemies spawn out of nowhere. Why would you be in denial about this?

>Third of all, name a single JRPG spell that functions the same. You cannot.
Imagine being this retarded. The feature you describe is incredibly shallow and simplistic, and present in plenty of games in some form or another: chrono.fandom.com/wiki/Element#Field_Effect

>By using Elements, the Field Effect is altered. Simply using Elements changes the primary color of the local Elemental field. The local Elemental field is three levels deep. As Elements are used, their innate colors are "pushed down" in the Elemental field until they are pushed out altogether. The local Elemental field also has an effect on characters, empowering them if the local field color is partly or fully their innate color, and de-powering them if its is opposite.

>Completely changing the local field effect color (so that all three levels are the same color) unlocks more powerful Elements such as summons.

>Third of all, name a single JRPG spell that functions the same. You cannot.

>Pokemon developers were too lazy to make environmental hazards affect specific parts of the environment, and instead made it that those hazards just affect all participants in combat
>this is somehow worthy of praise

>other rpg developers aren't as lazy and actually go to the effort of making environmental hazards affect specific parts of the environment, allowing for tactically deeper combat encounters
>this is somehow a bad thing

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>BY all means, point out the error of my way?
finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Independent_Materia#Chocobo_Lure
>Fine, thats 1 non-combat "spell" and even that only highlights how shallow magic system in FF7 is compared to Baldur's Gate
And the goalposts move YET AGAIN.
>They essentially are, since they are represented with a single blob during exploration.
You can still hide from them, which is what the argument was ACTUALLY about. Once again, moving goalposts
>>By using Elements, the Field Effect is altered. Simply using Elements changes the primary color of the local Elemental field. The local Elemental field is three levels deep. As Elements are used, their innate colors are "pushed down" in the Elemental field until they are pushed out altogether. The local Elemental field also has an effect on characters, empowering them if the local field color is partly or fully their innate color, and de-powering them if its is opposite.
Oh, so not even close to what sandstorm, stealth rock, spikes, and toxic spikes actually do. Which you would know if you actually played the games
>>Pokemon developers were too lazy to make environmental hazards affect specific parts of the environment, and instead made it that those hazards just affect all participants in combat
>>this is somehow worthy of praise
Wow, it's almost like animals in a sandstorm are affected more than trees and rocks in a sandstorm.
Also, it's still an environmental effect, so you're just moving goalposts again.

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>Tfw you grew up on lots of Western stuff like LOTR, DND and 40K and can also see the appeal in Jrpgs

You see, user, to each their own, but assuming one genre or origin is superior to another is simply being narrowminded. Fun fact, but those who think they're galaxy brains are in fact babby brains. You're genuinely enlightened if you enjoy video games, period.

Jrpgs are pretty

>it's okay to bash only western games

I wasn't bashing, western games. You're the one that started the flame war, not me

40K is made for fat suburban children who get bullied.

anime*

fpbp, westaboos seething.

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STOP LIKING JRPGS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! YOU AREN'T ALOUD TO LIKE POKEMON, FF, ETRIAN ODYSSEY, OR XENOBLADE! LIKE BALDY'S GAY NOOOOOOOOOOOOW!

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no, because it consistently produces better games than the west's garbage.

Dark Souls is pretty westaboo though. (That and berserk references, but whatever)

christ, you're retarded.

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>westaboos seething.
They're the ones seething? The weaboos in this thread are so desperate that they literally have to resort to inventing fake shit (Pokemon has environmental hazards in combat, Persona/Etrian Odyssey has a stealth system, etc.).

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>aloud
This is why no one takes you jrpg fags seriously.

>They're the ones seething?
yes, you are. you're the one who throws tantrums and starts spamming autistic cherrypicked charts every time anyone praises jrpgs.

>tfw growing up on both
>love LOTR, WHFB & 40K
>equally love Suikoden 2, SMT series and other j-shit

>christ, you're retarded.

So you're retarded. There is no environment in Pokemon. So shit like Rain Dance just affects all participants. Its the same shit as spells in other jrpgs that affect ALL targets.

An example of a spell that affects the battlefield would be something like Grease in Baldur's GAte. It creates a slippery oil fiield around a certain radius. Characters will only be affected if they step on the ground that the oil field is covering, and if they manage to move away from it, they will no longer be affected. When you use Grease, you have to think about which specific spot is the best choice to place it on. In other words: you have to take the environment into account. This aspect of combat is non-existent i Pokemon.

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>i-it doesn't work the way i want it to, so it doesn't count!
the absolute state of westaboos.

Like a true cuck lord.

Explain why stealth rock, Spikes, Substitute, and Toxic Spikes don't affect all participants

after he gets done combing through let's-play footage on youtube to see what p5's stealth system looks like, he'll run back here to claim it doesn't count because it's not exactly like the one in thief. meanwhile, if it was the exact same as thief, he'd bitch about japan "copying the west" instead.

Why is it cuck to enjoy real Western (like myself) stuff instead of Japanese made Western? Not a trick question, I genuinely don't understand what this means.

So let me get this straight:

Getting a free turn in combat doesn't raise the alarm, despite the fact that you then proceed to beat the shit out of the enemies using incredibly loud bombastic spelsl and attacks.

But failing to get a free turn does raise the alarm for...reasons?

How the fuck is that a stealth system? It's just a completely abstract gameplay mechanic.

>Explain why stealth rock, Spikes, Substitute, and Toxic Spikes don't affect all participants
Because they affect targets. That's how all Pokemon abilities work: they either affect one target or multiple targets. They're not really environmental hazards.

If they were really environmental hazards, the game would allow you to manually place the Spikes on a specific spot in the battlefield. Pokemon doesn't allow this, since it doesn't have a battlefield, ergo it doesn't ahve environmental hazard.

Get it through your thick skull, you moron. Have you seriously never played a turn-based game in your life besides POkemon?

>this stealth isn't 100% realistic, so it doesn't count
Y I K E S, you know it's a game, right?

Japaense games and especially jrpg usually use most boring lame predictable souless story.They are the equivalent to modern "cinematic" experience story. It is like that japanese studio hire random isekai writers.
If they bother recruting some good story maker or seinen mangaka, we would have a lot more game stories like metal gears solid or nier automata.

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>using any form of "yikes"
>>>/reddit/

>Because they affect targets
Stealth rock, spikes, and toxic spikes stay on the field after the targets are long gone.
>Get it through your thick skull, you moron.
That's pretty rich, considering you had no idea these things existed until this thread, yet you act like you're some sort of expert
>no argument

>>this stealth isn't 100% realistic, so it doesn't count
Who said anything about realism? The point is that P5's system has nothing to do with being stealthy. In what universe is the the solution to lowering the alarm rating is to get into more loud battles?

>In what universe is the the solution to lowering the alarm rating is to get into more loud battles?
Persona 5 :^)

Guys stop fighting. It's time to realise that one is not inherently better than the ither. It's time to realise both types of games are shit.

>they affect targets
youtu.be/ZBf5oSrFgBM?t=89

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>Stealth rock, spikes, and toxic spikes stay on the field after the targets are long gone.
So? That doesn't change the fact that they're still abstract debuffs/buffs without any physical presence on the battlefield since again, Pokemon, doesn't have a battlefield.

There are jrpgs that actually have environmental hazards, though they are extremely rare. Breath of Fire: DragoN Quarter.is an example. You would know this if you actually had any interest in the jrpg genre besides lowest common denominator trash like Pokemon.

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I ENJOY ALL KINDS OF GAMES EXCEPT DRAGON AGE INQUSITION

>claim that they only affect targets
>get proven wrong wrong
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT DOESN'T COUNT
Stop posting, facebook frogposter.

lmgtfy.com/?q=define battlefield

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>lowest common denominator trash like Pokemon.
>it's popular so it suxxorz
Pathetic

>Weebs not even safe on Yea Forums anymore

Good just the way I like it

obsessed

>you: it's an environmental hazard
>me: oh, so can you choose where to place it in the environment, like you can do in every turn-based game that has environmental hazards?
>you: no
>me: so what makes it an environmental hazard then?
>you: the effect lingers during combat even after the original targets are gone:
>me: so how is that an environmental hazard? If my D&D bard sings a song, its effect will also linger even after the original targets are gone. The Pokemon abilities you describe as environmental hazards are just straightforward buffs/debuffs. Come to think of it, Pokemon doesn't have a simulated environments. There is no way for combatants to move. So by definition, environmental hazards can't exist, since it's impossible to interact with the environment during combat.
you: Stop posting, facebook frogposter.

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You know damn well that when people mention 'battlefield' in the context of RPGs, they refer to RPGs that allow for in-combat movement. Pokemon doesn't allow this,

Stop being so stupidly obtuse.

fpbp

>ONLY MY ARBITRARY DEFINITION COUNTS N-N-N-N-N-NN-NO STOP USING THE DICTIONARY THAT LITERALLY WORDS TO BLOW ME OUT! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>you: it's an environmental hazard
>me: oh, so can you choose where to place it in the environment, like you can do in every turn-based game that has environmental hazards?
>you: no
>me: so what makes it an environmental hazard then?
It's a hazard that's in the environment like I said dozens of posts ago

>definition used by the first and most influential rpgs ever made (e.g. D&D), decades before pokemon even existed
>arbitrary
>somehow, pokemon, an incredibly simplistic rpg aimed at 4 year olds gets to redefine codified rpg terminology

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>it's an entire thread full of wojaks
>it's an entire thread full of frogs
>it's an entire thread of Yea Forums strawman images
>it's an entire thread full of shit subjective arguments people try to push as fact
>it's an entire thread of people shitting their pants because people like games they don't like
>it's an entire thread of people wanting to be mature for playing video games
>it's an entire thread most likely filled with third-worlders
Man you people are great

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>>definition used by the first and most influential rpgs ever made (e.g. D&D), decades before pokemon even existed
And the dictionary predates DND.
>pokemon, an incredibly simplistic rpg aimed at 4 year olds
Do they have global championships for D&D? No? Then shut up.

based

>every RPG has to follow the exact same rules

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>hurricanes aren't environmental hazards because they effect entire cities
This is (You)r """"""""""""""""""""""logic""""""""""""""""""""""""

Don't know this feel. I enjoy western and japanese RPGs equally.

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Triple cringe.

Seething

Cope

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>>hurricanes aren't environmental hazards because they effect entire cities
False analogy, because "entire cities" can actually be measured in terms of what area is affected

Pokemon combat on the other hand takes place in a completely abstract battle arena. There is no environment whatsoever here.

Cringe.

Formerly based

>it's not an environment if you don't know the exact area it covers
Not how it works, chief

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>all of the western games have a pc focus had small teams and were made in the late 90s early

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>never played much JRPG growing up despite liking the genre
>unironically like "same-y" tropey JRPGs because I haven't burned myself out on them.

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>cherrypicking THIS hard

I haven't seen this much strawmanning in years.

Just play what you like. There isn't anything wrong with someone preferring one over the other. I play both and I'd rather keep it that way rather than force myself into a camp that has to vilify the other. Why would you willingly miss out on playing the widest variety of vidya in your lifetime?

Life is short dudes, don't waste it bitching about stuff you don't/won't even play.

>tfw grew up playing FPSs, strategy games, and PC games in general and cant see the appeal of Japanese games because they dont even make those types of games

Funny you should make this comparison considering resident evil began its life based off of an earlier capcom game called sweet home
And sweet home was published in 1989
Fascinating no?

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isn't ff12 really more steampunk fantasy?

It's not quite steam punk. Stuff runs on crystals and like a crystalline fuel if I remember correctly?

Like there actual lamps that are just a crystal attached to a wall that light up at night. It's kind of like aether in 14 and mist in 9 as well.

Mistpunk, then.

JRPGs are has-beens. At least western developers are making an effort to bring back classic RPGs,
and plenty of them have been great so far.

Japs dont understand roleplaying and immersion anyway so they might as well not even be called RPGs anymore.

>And sweet home was published in 1989
Sweet Home is a turn-based jrpg. If that counts as survival horror, then any grueling turn-based dungeon crawler from the 80's counts as a survival horror game.

Resident Evil has nothing in common with Sweet Home apart from the superficial (YOU EXPLORE A MANSION), but it has everything in common with Alone in the Dark, as that image highlights

>isn't ff12 really more steampunk fantasy?
The technology is too futuristic. IT literally has X-Wings and shit like this.

finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Strahl

>Airship designed and built by YPA, a shipwright's guild of Archades. Officially named the YPA-GB47 Test Combat Fighter, production was halted after the completion of a single test model due to dissatisfaction on the part of the Imperial customer with the costly dual-movable-wing design. Scheduled for scrapping, Balthier liberated the ship at the last moment. Balthier has since modified the Strahl to his tastes with a new engine and numerous other augmentations, making it a very different ship from the one envisaged by its YPA inventors.
This is straight up sci-fi, not steampunk.

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>It's not quite steam punk. Stuff runs on crystals and like a crystalline fuel if I remember correctly?
Steampunk doesn't mean that shit has to be actually running on steam, it refers to a certain set of themes and ideas.

>then any grueling turn-based dungeon crawler from the 80's counts as a survival horror game.

'Sup.

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if that's the case why was this important footnote not in that image
It's almost like you are misleading the viewer with your own opinion and neglecting facts
Not the mention that fact that both games borrow heavily from horror movies in the first place

Is that so? Huh, never knew. The more you know.

I've only ever seen steam punk stuff be literally steam, forgive me.

>Not the mention that fact that both games borrow heavily from horror movies in the first place
Alone in the Dark was primarily inspired by the Call of Cthulhu role-playing game.

>if that's the case why was this important footnote not in that image
Because it's not relevant. Resident Evil has the same controls, camera system, game mechanics, interface design, even specific areas, hazards and monsters as Alone in the Dark, right down to extremely specific jump scares.

Resident Evil has some superficial similarities with Sweet Home.

heck, the director of RE, Shinji Mikami, wasn't even involved with Sweet Home.

What are you doing?
I think WRPGfag is a a dumbass with a chip in his shoulder and he's barking up the wrong tree trying to argue this but you're even worse to pretend like you don't know what he's trying to say. You know perfectly well that his arguement is actually about depth and complexity in JRPGs and that Pokemon's method of "environmental factors" is presumably inferior to something like Baldur's Gate because it's more abstract and doesn't have the same level of strategical nuance or something and thinking yourself clever because he's too dumb to actually express that well.

You seem more concerned with pedantry and laying argumentative traps so that you can have your "Gotcha!" moment and BFTO WRPGSFAGS EPIC STYLE!!!! :DD than actually making a salient point about why JRPGs make certain design decisions and why those decisions are good. I like JRPGs (probably more than WRPGs) but I don't see how it's unreasonable to want a little more meat to your games

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>original image is calling a game for being based on another
>said other game is based on another game
Oh I see
you have no ability to see irony

>all games should be the same: the thread