So is the difference between a Shinobi and a Samurai that a Samurai isn't allowed to be a cheating backstabbing dirty...

So is the difference between a Shinobi and a Samurai that a Samurai isn't allowed to be a cheating backstabbing dirty prick?

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The difference is that Samurai were a social class while ninjas were just random dudes.

>The difference is that Samurai were a social class while ninjas were just random dudes.
Every ninja was a Samurai you fucking idiot. They were the same class.

No they weren't

No since Genichiro happily cheats in the prologue if you beat him

A Samurai is most similar to a European Knight. They're a higher level on the social hierarchy. Meanwhile, a Shinobi, or Ninja, is an assassin/spy from a class lower than a peasant. Usually they were outcast Samurai or abandoned children. This is why their fighting styles tended to be a mish-mash of styles from.different areas in Japan.

Ome thing you'll notice in many older arts in Japan is that they would utilise slightly different styles of combat as the terrain varies wildly from region to region. It wasn't uncommon for a shinobi to learn parts of each of these styles, as well as any other useful skills other outcasts may have bought to the table.

Interestingly, eventually these groups formed into their own smaller societies with ninja princes and the like.

so shinobi are sellblades?

>Samurai (/ˈsæmʊraJ/) (侍) were the military nobility and officer caste of medieval and early-modern Japan.

>In Japanese, they are usually referred to as bushi (武士, [bɯ.ɕi]) or buke (武家). According to translator William Scott Wilson: "In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning 'to wait upon', 'accompany persons' in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean 'those who serve in close attendance to the nobility'

>These professional ninja were actively hired by daimyōs between 1485 and 1581,[21] until Oda Nobunaga invaded Iga Province and wiped out the organized clans.[28] Survivors were forced to flee, some to the mountains of Kii, but others arrived before Tokugawa Ieyasu, where they were well treated.[29] Some former Iga clan members, including Hattori Hanzō, would later serve as Tokugawa's bodyguards.[30]

Straight from wikipedia. Same class different rolls.

There's a little more to it than that.

Sometimes Samurai would actually employ a dirty tactic where one would fight a rival enemy head-on while another attacked from behind for an easy kill. Like the Knights, their obsession with honour is exaggerated today.

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Pretty much, yeah. Though eventually they became born into it and had their own value systems between clans.

Most ninja towns got demolished in wars and stuff but some exist still, just without the ninjas that used to inhabit them.

Where is it implied that ninjas are from the samurai class?

This isn't accurate to early ninja, but later some would enjoy a higher privilege than peasants while working on their contracts, but only high rankers would be treated anywhere close to a samurai in rank. Samurai are usually born into their class, and rarely elevated from commoners.

Samurai usually killed innocent and unarmed peasants just for fun or to test their new blade, that's why the peasants made ninjas to kill the samurai.

>Where is it implied that ninjas are from the samurai class?
You might be retarded so let me spell it out.

Both Samurai and Ninja are hired into the service of daimyo (lord). These men often come from families with some degree power power (nobles). The only difference is the work they are hired to do. Samurai fight while Ninja's spy and infiltrate other courts. You can't do that without being a noble.

Ninja being sneaky dudes running around rooftops in black body suits throwing knives and killing people is a meme and it needs to die.

A lot of wrong information in this thread, so I'll make it as simple as possible.

Samurai are members of the warrior/ officer caste in the feudal system (think European knight) that serve a lord or master.

Ronin are masterless samurai (i.e. the wandering samurai archetype) that are from the same social class but don't serve a particular lord.

Shinobi or ninja traditionally come from the peasant caste (the bottom of the feudal order) to defend peasants from samurai. Therefore they developed techniques that made them adept at killing mounted or armoured samurai. In later periods of history, feudal lords started to hire shinobi as spies and assassins.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

why is he so fucking huge? dude is like 3 meters tall

>quoting wikipedia
>thinking he has the higher ground
yikes

he's andre

what's andre?

Sure thing buddy, ninjas were high-born nobles that just happened to be good at spys. Believe whatever you misinterpretted from the kikepedia article you quoted.

>You can't do that without being a noble.
Yes you can. There's no law on what class the dirty fucker you send to spy on others has to belong to.

Andre is from previous FromSoft games

>Samurai are members of the warrior/ officer caste in the feudal system (think European knight) that serve a lord or master.

More or less correct

>Shinobi or ninja traditionally come from the peasant caste (the bottom of the feudal order) to defend peasants from samurai. Therefore they developed techniques that made them adept at killing mounted or armoured samurai. In later periods of history, feudal lords started to hire shinobi as spies and assassins.

'Ninja' only refers to 14th century up.

Feel free to post a source that disproves me, until then feel free to fuck off.
You seem to overestimate how useful a dirty fucker is when spying on an enemy court.

>Feel free to post a source that disproves me
Not him and that's not how it works. We can all ignore your bullshit claims and continue believing what we believe, and be perfectly justified, until you post any source at all. We're waiting on your source to prove you aren't a shitposter.

Your own wikipedia source disproves you, you dense fuck.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

I already did, but feel free to keep being wrong I don't really care.

>These men often come from families with some degree power power (nobles).
[NOT PRESENT IN SOURCE GIVEN]

Like the Souls games a lot of the abilities you get are fucking useless. When does From learn?

No you didn't: You're full of shit, know you're wrong, and got BTFO to the point a stranger coming through is now laughing at you, good job on the damage control.

>ninja is only 14th century and up
But yet the wikipedia page you reference says it appears in the 12th century. Not to mention Takagure-ryu (the art I have practiced and so I actually know my shit when it comes to ninja history) is also from the 12 century.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Togakure-ryū

Samurai are Sword Nobility, they hold land and troops for their liege Lord.

Shinobi can be Samurai aswell, but they can be from any background.

retard alert

I'll link it again because Yea Forumsetards can't read.

A distinction is to be made between the ninja from these areas, and commoners or samurai hired as spies or mercenaries. Unlike their counterparts, the Iga and Kōga clans produced professional ninja, specifically trained for their roles.[21] These professional ninja were actively hired by daimyōs between 1485 and 1581.

If somebody is hired directly by a Daimyo they in the exact same social class as a Samurai. The only difference between a Samurai and some random mook with a sword is the Samurai is hired directly into the service of the Daimyo.

If you are hired directly into the service of Daimyo you are almost certainly of notable birth due to feudal Japans cast system.

>I studied the blade.

Well if you knew anything about ninja history you would know two things.
A) its absolutly full of misinformation and myths and B) I am correct.

Does the game really take place in feudal Japan? Felt a bit too fantastical, at least Nioh acknowledges that but this one just plays them straight with a straight face.

Did you spell the art you practice wrong

I might be stupid but I don't understand who backstabbed Sekiro in the Lady Butterfly arena in the cutscene.

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>If somebody is hired directly by a Daimyo they in the exact same social class as a Samurai.

You clearly have no idea what a feudal caste system is or how it works.

A daimyo does not exclusively only hire samurai, and the act of a daimyo hiring someone does not automatically elevate someone to a higher class.
Yes, there are cases of daimyo granting servants land and therefore elevating them in the class hierarchy, but this is more of an exception than the norm.

Owl

*citation needed*

No its straight up Samurai mythology invented in the 20th century.

You're not correct. You're conflating the rules of regular work with the work of warfare specialists. It makes more sense to hire people that have at -least- Samurai level of authority when it comes to personal labour to the Daimyo because you can ensure that it will be of exceptional quality.

Meanwhile, in war, you -do not- want your enemy to know who your information brokers are. You do not want them to know what your agents are likely to look like. It makes sense to hire outsiders, again, by the known historical accounts had their own prefectures as grown organically with their own social structures, such as in the siege of osaka, that are outside of the known system. As a lord, it majes sense that a lord from outside the system could be construed publically as being someone of the same caste.
>who is the daimyo with?
>must be a lord from a far off province, they have flags and retainers, see

We actually have a book coming out soon, if it isn't already, that examines public documents, maps, and the like, that will shed a lot of light on shinobi.

Yes lol
I do it often with Japanese words

what the fuck are you talking about? nioh takes place in actual japanese locations and features actual historical characters. the word "japan" is never said in sekiro.

"Ninja" is a modern day term for assassins and saboteurs that existed in Japan for thousands of years under different names.

Most of them were not from nobility and did not subscribe to conventional ideas of honor and combat e.g. introducing yourself to your opponent and engaging in one on one duels when more efficient ways of winning were available.

they didn't? I could've sworn they did in the intro

Holy shit read a book on Ninja. Preferably by Matsu Hatsumi

>If somebody is hired directly by a Daimyo they in the exact same social class as a Samurai
>If you are hired directly into the service of Daimyo you are almost certainly of notable birth due to feudal Japans cast system.
I like how your entire argument is built on top of a nonsensical claim that multiple people have pointed out is wrong, and yet you just keep repeating it and acting as if you are supporting your argument.

>the word "japan" is never said in sekiro.
Yes it is, it's literally the first few lines of spoken dialogue. The Ashina clan was an actual clan. The Interior Ministry invasion was a real event. The Tomoe everyone talks about throughout the game is Tomoe Gozen. The primary cast are fictional characters, but Sekiro is at least as historically accurate as Nioh. That is to say, vaguely.

Maasaki holy shit Im dumb

Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. Just stop.

Sorta like difference between n actual Knight and some man-at-arms dude. Sure, both can be even equally matched in skill, but one of them has social status bundled with his skill.

Samurai = Noble Warrior Class [pretending to be] honorable
Shinobi = Spies spreading lies and rumors about supernatural powers

he doesn't cheat, some lowly lackey cheats, there are loop holes every where

Samurai are Knights while Shinobi are assassins/spies.

In real life examples ninja we're usually more loyal than samurai.

Great, now I have to play Shogun and Shogun 2. Fuck you Yea Forums, I wanted to install Rome 2 and see why you were all shitting on it.

There were 2 kind of nobles - patrician 士 (samurai) and 文 in ancient Asian culture. Japanese especially, always fond of bushido (ways of bushi - ways of samurai)
When Taira no Kiyomori reign the samurai and their retainer become the ruler of lands.

Samurai is like lords/knight in Western, I think.
忍び (shinobi) or 忍者 (ninja, kanji - chinese characters), are practioner of the art of 忍 (the art of endure).
They don't really require any social status.

Sekiro is just a practioner of the art, and since Owl (father) and his cronies were serving Ashina clan which harbour prince Kuro. He also take turn to serve the prince.

Samurai were honorless bastards that killed unarmored, powerless peasants just because they could (they had money, lands, expensive weapons and gear)
Shinobi existed to counter Samurai fucking with innocent people

stop.
Either educate or kill yourself for propagating this bullshit. I suggest the latter.

>all these people debating about real life samurai and shinobi

That's fine and all, but Miyazaki doesn't use the historical definitions to define the roles in his game. The game's description of a Shinobi is "a warrior that is unrelenting in his fight for life or death".

Not any samurai.
Data Masamune, Oda Nobunaga, Uesugi Kenshin etc probably won't ever do anything like that.
Even Hideyoshi wouldn't
More than anyone, bushi used to be harrased a lot by upper echelons in Heian era.
Fake and lowly samurai would, but they are not what you would call a "samurai" in the first place.

He got it right though,
忍
刀
心
heart under blade, or perservant people who endure to protect their ideal.

you are fucking retarded if you think samurai were honorable

I think you are confusing with Yakuza, who also acted as a kind of trade-union.

Did you a favor then, Rome 2 is utter, utter shite, stick with Rome 1

#notallsamurai

>Japanese is the default language
>references real life people and events
>NOPE SEKIRO DOESN'T TAKE PLACE IN JAPAN NO SIR

based educational Jap

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Of course it will be different since it video games, but the inspiration is there. I think
In actual history Ashina is destroyed by Date Masamune for their betrayal.
The invading army in Sekiro is probably of one eye dragon Date Masamune.

What is the difference between a geisha and an oiran??

Geisha is usually a musician, Oiran is usually a prostitute.

what do you mean I can't fuck a geisha? the fuck

They didn't go around killing the peasantry you fucktarded dumbass. They are tried and executed for that.

Not any of these faggots, but, source on that book? Whats the name of it?

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Why was Nobunaga such a nerd?

I see you‘ve failed the weeb exam. Samurai is a class, which is something like a knight in western medieval. Ninja is an occupation.

>Samurai and ninja were the same class
uh no. Most ninja were peasants or hid has peasants. something samurai would never be caught doing.

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Nobunaga was based and enjoyed both women and girls (male)

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Stupid sexy Ranmaru

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Could Wolf take Wirriam in a fight?

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yes

Wolf can parry a fucking dragon god.
So technically yes.
Otherwise they would just keep killing each other forever.

Wirriam-sama can become an unkillable murder god with the right equipment/skills, so not really

"Shinobi" is actually an adjective that means "stealthy"