How did they fuck up this map so badly?

Bullshit, I played og 2fort map on tf2 on a classic server for years and it was fucking terrible

>no stairs on the second tunnel leading to the Intel, have to use shitty bugged elevator.
>No kino roof on the bridge
>Almost no healthkit

see
Pleb zoomer

Definitely agree with the CTF_Well part, fucking love that map.

They went for gorgeous aesthetics and a sort of baked in story-telling scenario conduciveness over gameplay balance and variety. That much is evident across all levels of TF2's design.

Attached: 1541967689077.png (460x448, 316K)

Every intel room should have at least 3 entrances to it. This is a fundamental design principle that every map maker needs to follow. Also at least two of the entrances should be a good distance away from each other and they should NEVER pass by the spawn room. All CTF maps fail these conditions which is why they're shit.

What about exits? Should the mid ground be long and narrow or broad and flat? Role of verticality, climbs and drops? Please detail your reasoning.

That's your opinion, though. 2fort had one exit for enemy players and it worked for years across all the 6+ TF games/mods. I never had a problem with it and never knew someone who did, and I played TF ever since the original Quake mod.

Attached: r.jpg (2232x1080, 214K)

o shit, didn't intent to post that image.

Capture the flag is a terribly designed game mode.

The reason 2fort is bad is that same reason that every ctf map is bad: there's no fucking timer. Nobody has any reason to go get the intel so engies just huddle around the intel and matches go on for 30-60 minutes or more. It's got other problems, but adding a simple timer would improve it immensely.

>want to sell off some cosmetics
>phone is dead, waiting for new phone to arrive
>transferring steam guard to a new phone incurs a 15 day trade hold
fuck sake. my classes are using ugly, expensive cosmetics. i wanna sell them to get better looking, cheaper stuff.

Stop listening to Uncle Dane's autistic rambling, CTF is a classic gamemode that has worked in tons of games for years. It also worked in TFC and literally every other TF game, TF2's CTF maps are just shit.

It's hard to believe that more time has passed between the current Pyro's incipitiation and today than between the original Pyro and then. (well all the classes obviously.) That's just how solid those nine designs have proven themselves, how timelessly they've avoided any trace of aging.

Attached: 1544109340189.jpg (1521x1359, 301K)

If you could improve the current maps, but couldn't change any of them too much, what simple changes would you make?
After a decade with these maps, there would be huge outcry over any major changes.

TFC had conc spam which let you go stupidly fast so you could fly in and out at light speed. Not a fair comparison. I haven't played QWTF so I can't comment on it but I think we can all agree TF2 is much slower paced and area denial classes are much more effective than they were in previous games.

Entrances and exits are the same thing. More open space to promote movement skills. Chokepoints should only exist as transitions between major areas so explosive classes are still useful at denying uncoordinated teams from taking ground but once they get through the door it's an even playing field. Drops can be good for cheeky flanks like on granary, gullywash, or even turbine. Verticality on asymmetrical maps is tricky. You have to strike a balance between giving defenders a good position to hold but not too many that they have an overwhelming advantage.

old good
new bad

For driven aggressive gameplay with winning a match as the goal, yes. For messing around, CtF is perfect. The points are made up and the goal doesn't matter, just play about rocket jumping or going for trickstabs and do as you will. CtF is like Princess Peach's castle in SM64 - it's arguably as important and good as any other stage despite having no challenge to offer.

Are you retarded? Classic 2fort is fucking abismal.
t. someone who played only classic 2fort for 400 hours because his shitty pc even with mods barely ran 24 fps

Would tf2 still be popular if they still updated it every 2 months?
I miss them giving a fuck about tf2. it is sad.
>but they were just cosmetic updates
better than nothing

Dane is right about the intel timer though, that shit needs to go.

I dunno. With all the changes and nerfs valve has made to some items, I think it may secretly be a blessing that they rarely touch the game now.

Interesting shit.

>Entrances and exits are the same thing
Not necessarily, this is why I bring up verticality. There are drop-ins and drop-outs of numerous rooms in the game, including several Intel rooms.

>Verticality on asymmetrical maps
We're talking about CtF, which is always symmetrical. Unless you're talking about a hypothetical CtF AD mode, which is cool if so sine that's something I've thought about before.

Number of updates is meaningless if nothing meaningful happens in them. One quality update every two years can sustain a game.

The trouble of course is that Valve can't even do that.

Ctf should be attack defence. The only time ctf fun when one team goes full def and other attack.

>Not necessarily, this is why I bring up verticality
If you're a soldier or demo they're the same thing. If you only think of dropdowns as one way you're gonna have a bad day when a soldier jumps up and gibs your team.

>We're talking about CtF, which is always symmetrical
Symmetrical maps it doesn't matter too much as long as both teams have access to them. Depends how soldier/scout oriented you want the map to be. What does matter are sightlines. You don't want snipers dominating mids. There should be enough cover for a soldier to get within rocket jump distance of the enemy sniper safely.

>That's just how solid those nine designs have proven themselves
It's more that there's no reason to do a model update

TC_HYDRO WOULD WORK IF EACH 'ROUND' WAS KOTH INSTEAD OF CONTROL POINTS AS IT WOULD FORCE BOTH TEAMS TO BE AGGRESSIVE AND THERE WOULD BE NO STALEMATES

OP is larping again that he's ever played qtf or classic before in his life ! Call the nurse

Hydro would work if it wasn't claustrophobic tiny shitty snippet of the bigger map.

I know how to fix it make a second way up to the battlements so basically double courtyards

But if you double the courtyard what happens to the sewers

It's the fucking tutorial map. Every class has one or two spots they're amazing in. These spots are incredibly obvious.
A video went over this and I think it's spot on. The essence is:
> Scouts can jump from the balcony to the bridge and back again on either side
> Soldiers can challenge scouts or go mess around under the bridge's roof
> Pyros are great anywhere there's a corner, and they have several amazing vertical flanks like that random hole in the ceiling and in the courtyard
> Demos have plenty of doors that can be sticky trapped completely invisibly
> Heavies excel in sewers and the ground floor, because they're closed areas with one long sightline
> Engineers fuck around the intel room and the doorway between the courtyard and the room outside main spawn
> Medics literally just stay behind heavies/pyros in small corridors
> Snipers on the balcony
> Spies either trying to kill snipers on the balcony (risky) or fuck with engineers in the intel room or courtyard

It's not supposed to be the best map in the world, it's supposed to teach you the very basics of what your class should be doing.

True, but not everything should be about blast-jumpers in the game. Note the should - of course it is in the current game, chiefly because of class imbalance but also because of map design choices.

For instance, one can design a type of vertical drop that can technically be climbed by a rocket jumper, but is ery infefficient and gruelling. Simply make the drop a tube or pipe with several zig-zags and flats. It's easy to drop down to the bottom, but a soldier would have to rocket jump three, four or more times on the trot to ascend the entire tube, making it very costly.

>Meaning the player who capped the flag would need to go through the spiral corridor to get out
Unless you could conc jump, which any player worth their salt who ran for the flag solo could do.

Attached: 1542519398259.jpg (808x825, 370K)

That's literally what I said

Attached: time to stalemate.jpg (146x146, 22K)

Objectively correct, control points in general suck balls outside of KotH. The existence of Payload made all other CPs pointless.

>TF2's 2fort removed this elevator for some dumbfuck reason and replaced it with stairs, making it alot easier for the enemy team and give them two ways of getting out. It's an odd choice that makes the map less fun.
user, one of the worst aspects of TF2 2fort is the sheer difficulty of removing the flag from the premises. Making the elevator into stairs was the right call. I agree with the scale change being bad though. It is too cramped.

>Medic
Made me realise that ultimately Medic plays almost identically in any game no matter the map or mode

Attached: Fear and Loathing in Teufort.png (500x500, 275K)

That has been a thing since the TFC days

>Classic 2fort is fucking abismal.
Did you play it on TFC? If not, then stfu and gtfo. TF2 is a slower paced game than TFC and doesn't have any of the chaos that TFC has, 2fort just doesn't work in TF2. Just play 2fort on a TFC server with a decent amount of players, theres shit exploding everywhere and a million rockets flying around, it's intense and fun as shit.

And it's not a good design choice, defending the flag was extremely difficult in TFC. In TF2 one person going spy to grab the intel forces the entire team to rotate back to defend it. It's a shitty mechanic. CTF has been played in competitive before so you can't say it wasn't tried.

>wolfenstein ET had tf2 mod
What the fuck i never knew about this kill me

What's the alternative? A teammate touches it to send it back to the base? TF2 doesn't have a lot of mobility to its classes, that would make every fucking CTF game a stalemate.

No it wouldn't. Enemy team sends one spy to cap the intel, one scout goes back to defend it. At the front it's still a 5v5. It would play very similar to how 5 cp plays now.

ctf_turbine master race checking in

Attached: happy-man-e1505773311870.jpg (438x484, 31K)

what is the best way to play medic? default medigun on offense, quick fix defense?
also i guess crusaders crossbow is always the top weapon > stock syringe gun.
Does Ubersaw need a nerf? it is the only melee weapon that is just a straight upgrade

Attached: medic-team-fortress-2.png (1280x720, 600K)

Not the guy you relied to, but I think a combo of the two would work.
Make the timer start at sixty seconds and decrease the farther away you bring the intel from its initial position, stopping at a minimum of ten/five seconds. After the timer wears off, the enemy can touch the intel to return it.
That way, the defending team has a better chance to return the intel once it gets out of their base without completely nullifying any progress the attacking team made.

Turbine is shit, CTF_Well is the patrician's CTF map

Good map, but a little plain. I like having some waterways and some kind of dynamic obstacle like trains.

>Every intel room should have at least 3 entrances to it. This is a fundamental design principle
talking out of your ass. you're a fundamental faggot.

They removed the stairs to the spot by the intel room from the basement, meaning that the only two ways down to the intel room were directly next to the spawn door, further meaning there was really only one way down to the intel room, which was an open area easily defended by even a solo demoman. It was one of the worst launch maps and made Hydro look damn near playable.

Why did they change the flag into a briefcase? It looks gay as fuck. Has anyone ever made a mod that changesthe briefcase back into a flag?

You can see it this principle everywhere on 5cp maps and on most PL and AD maps. If there are only two entrances a demoman can easily cover both and kill anything that comes through with 4 stickies.

>Does Ubersaw need a nerf? it is the only melee weapon that is just a straight upgrade
It has the slower firing speed downside but that's an pre-split Equalizer-tier downside. A better one would be lowering damage because that's both not what you're using it for and it means you might get another hit in for that Ubercharge.

>TF2's CTF maps are just shit.

shit taste

Attached: spectator_0.jpg (1920x1080, 395K)

For the thinking player (scout or soldier), it's a great time

Attached: 1546445222677.jpg (680x665, 71K)

All 4 mediguns have their uses and can be very powerful when used correctly. Stock is always a safe choice though.
Crossbow is the best primary hands down right now.
Ubersaw needs a huge nerf. It's incredibly overpowered.

Just buff the rest of them.
Ubersaw and crossbow are only so powerful because the rest are shit.

>blocks ur path

Attached: sawmill.jpg (251x201, 7K)

what, the fuck? did I save the thumbnail like a nigger monkey?

Yep. Saved it like a niggermonkey. Come on, user

>basic FPSs
We have loads of different guns that players are free to pick among to suit their own playstyle. But certain weapons tend to get picked more than others no matter what and it's a pain to balance
>class-based FPSs
We've bound certain weapon types to certain classes with an overall them and mobility set that can be more finely balanced both internally and externally to create a varied play experience as both an individual player and as a team vs team engagement. But some classes just get used more than others no matter what we seem to do, and balancing them is a chore.

What your point amounts to is that the class-based shooter model has reached its limits in terms of what it can provide for game balance, and FPSs are due for another level of refinement. What could come after the existing nine-class style role division?

>Ultra-fine subclass division?
>Full unlockset binding, all items having so many fullclass adjustments that taking any combination is radically different?
>Outright full team alteration, if you play BLU you have a different set of nine classes to RED?
>Movement and placing restriction, Soldiers are only allowed in this area of the map and can at best shoot at enemies in other areas?

Medic is already the most powerful class in the game. He doesn't need any more buffs. His other melee weapons are not bad. +3 health is quite a lot, that's 6 to 9 health regenerated per second. Seeing enemy health is incredibly powerful with coordinated teams. The medic can call which players to focus down with that information. The vitasaw is the only one which is pretty weak right now but it was downright broken in its previous incarnation. What medic needs right now are more unlocks. He has the fewest unlocks of any class right now, he's very one dimensional and boring.

Kritz has very little use outside of MvM. It's barely better than the Buff Banner in this regard.

who the fuck played tf before tf2? like 800 people tops?