How would you modernize devil may cry and make it more accessible without sacrificing it's depth?

dmc 5 is already easier than the previous games. u pretty much have unlimited revives. The story really doesnt matter.

does it really need any more casualization?

Walking sections, a beard and an axe.

Hell Dante exists too

Nobody said you have to be trickswording like Donguri all the time, you're allowed to stick to Trickster and one or two weapons if you don't want to overwhelm yourself

Make Snatch available from the start, remove Wire Snatch.
Make a button modifier to change L-stick into style change menu.
Make Shadow's positioning more consistent: it should stand right next to V in lock-on mode and teleport back to that position after every combination.

New GoW is more difficult to beat on normal setting than DMC5.

this one always gets me because jump is literally a glorified dodge button anyways.

make the enemies actually attack you.

It's already accessible as fuck, anyone can mash and beat the game, even with S ranks. The harder stuff takes practice but that's extra. Depth isn't the only thing that matters too, having difficult mechanics to learn and master that in the end make for smooth gameplay is in itself satisfying. If the smooth cool gameplay is too easy to achieve then it loses its value as a reward and becomes boring. Fuck this anti-execution skill mentality

Just imagine interconnected maps with load points like dark souls. Your score and could show up during the corridor/elevator/whatever and every level could have a chance to upgrade before the load point
They wouldn’t be able to make the whole game like that but every location could have that design

throw in an easy difficulty level that automatically does some of the more complex shit for you.

There, nothing is sacrificed and more people can play

No. Just no. I prefer the level select system a lot more.

>dedicated dodge button

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LOL, no it's not.

It's already modernized. Fuck off.

It already does that.

But the game already has auto mode that you can turn on and off

That's fucking godawful user, don't ever share your game design ideas again

I hate it but this is probably the best way to go about it. Level design always sucked because of the mission system. Even DMC1 suffered from this limitation.

Yes it is. quite a lot more difficult.

And no, beating the game does not mean S ranking every difficulty. It just means beating every level on Human.

>Make Snatch available from the start, remove Wire Snatch.
No idea what you're getting at here. They're functionally identical.

You’d better tell me the flaws in my idea so I don’t believe something so stupid ever again

I would add a new character that doesn't revolve around execution, but rather positioning and summining demons. A character that relies more on the players wit and management of resources than raw dexterity.

I would make a begginner character who doesn't as complex of a moveset as Dante but can be used as a stepping stone to further their play. Give them a limited arsenal and tools to assist gameplay like a grappling hook.

I would make changes to Dante to make him a bit more accessible. Like introducing a new weapon which merges your sword style mechanics with the default attack scheme. I would also add a new mechanic where you can become a super demon and dispatch foes with little effort.

The changes to the overall game I'd add would be make jump canceling extremely lenient, make enemies completely braindead (make harder difficulties just inflate hp/damage), and make getting SSS less of a hassle.

Lastly I'd slow the game down significantly in comparison to its predecessor

>human
>normal
lol

who cares though? does that really add anything at all?

they just did

it's more difficult because of artificial elements

>It just means beating every level on Human.
that's easy mode. dmc5 is truly done when you beat every difficulty normal and above.

Human mode already exists though

Easy auto mode like Bayonetta has for little bitches that can't hang...everything else is the same as always.

>artificial elements
You mean like inflated health and damage?

Why do so many of you faggots have such a limited idea of what constitutes as good level design? Is it Souls shit poisoning your mind? Level design is supposed to fit the style of game and its focus, DMC's focus is in combat and replayability so the purpose of level design is to simply stay out of the way letting encounter/enemy design take over while providing a nice amount of variation in scenery visuals. It's not like Resident Evil 1 which had nonlinear exploration and resource/inventory management that affected your routes. The puzzles and exploration in DMC have no depth and lose all value on repeated playthroughs, becoming unnecessary at best and a tedious annoyance, busywork to get to the main meat of the game at worst.

>make shadow basically never get hit
That's too much man!

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Yes, loading screens are a massive drawback. They can lead players to quit the game who would otherwise have kept playing
If it’d draw too much attention away from level design to make the world interconnected, at least do something like Splatoon 2’s waiting screen where you can affect the music with the analog sticks. Something to do during the waiting time goes a long way

>Make the main character a woman
>Make her hot
>Make her outfit out of her hair

There's really only 2 things that i felt were outdated playing through DMC5, the nidhogg hatchlings, and Nero's charge shot where you have to hold down the button, at least Dante has the dignity of automatically charging them when you switch to trickster. Also too many loading screens, and not just when you go from a mission to a cutscene, but even within the customize menus, i can only imagine how horrific it must be on console without an SSD.

>Make Shadow's positioning more consistent: it should stand right next to V in lock-on mode and teleport back to that position after every combination.
Literally just dodge to the side.

> Something to do during the waiting time goes a long way
nigger it's

Because you effectively have 2 choices with that kind of design, either you structure the world with a general progression in mind so later areas are locked off until you clear the early ones which makes just playing around with specific missions/movesets an absolute chore that has a lot of prerequisites, or you can unlock all levels and make them accessible from a central hub, which is basically the same mission system except it takes longer for you to go from the main menu to an actual mission. It also gets rid of the benefits of the mission structure which admittedly DMC doesn't really capitalize on, which is that you can have very different looking environments because you have discrete levels rather than one seamless journey.

anybody who says
>I didn't like the loading screens form DMCV
>the story is bad
>gameplay felt clunky

should be fucking shot on sight, Itsuno spent almost 9 years making this game, fucking ungrateful retards

It's more difficult because of the shitty camera, that is true. I'm sure if you stuck the camera in DMC5 up dante's ass you'd have a real hard time playing the game too.

Exactly. No point in having both available.
Devil trigger also makes Buster Breaker obsolete.

mission system doesn't really effect level design, it just arbitarily serves as save points given you start at the same you ended from the last mission. dmc games already feature metrovania lite level design since you can go back to areas from a previous mission. if you took out missions, the game would be one continuous run with no breaks and devs would need to find another way to save progress.

>Itsuno spent almost 9 years making this game,

got a source?

GMGoW is more difficult than DMD
And i say this as a dmc fan.
If you could start on DMD then it be the other way around.

google it retard

No it's more difficult because you can't dodge out of every move. you cant kill everything while in the air and safe from damage, you can take far fewer hits and you can't just revive and try again without losing any progress. Enemies are also much more aggressive and attacks more from off camera.

>Buster Breaker
>obsolete
It still does more damage than Devil Bringer and has superarmor on breakage

Did you miss the part where DMC5 is by far the easiest game in the series?

I'd prefer that to be automatic.

>Exactly. No point in having both available.
Okay, what does that have to do with accessibility?
>Devil trigger also makes Buster Breaker obsolete
That's not true. Buster does way more damage and has other minor functionality like breaking Gilgamesh's legs in one hit. Either way, this also has nothing to do with accessibility.

yes which gow has

Not if you DT before using Bringer.

2 and DmC are easier

>what does that have to do with accessibility
Makes things less confusing.

I did, got no source

Let me elaborate on what I meant, I was talking about a sequel where they keep the same structure as DMC 5. There are many levels that are consecutive and follow a character through a continuous world, but broken up with load screens, menus, player score, etc. If you basically just swapped those loading screens out with a short section like a ladder to climb, you could make the player feel like they aren’t being interrupted while they see their results without having to alter the level design all that much

And still charged Buster Arm does more damage than DT devil bringer

Make it so you can dodge in any direction right off the bat.

Get rid of breakable devil breakers. Make it so you can switch breakers on the fly.

This reads to me as bad controls and game design, not a more enjoyable game difficulty.

GMGoW is also a broken disaster in a mediocre game

And then what when i want to go back and replay mission 2? backtrack through 16 levels?

>artificial elements
Just how stupid are you?

DMC5 was perfectfor this.
human mode is casual AF and allows you to experience the story and ease into the battle system so you can get into the real difficulty levels

so you keep it around just to cheese bosses with the breakage? All it's got is numbers. It sucks.

5 and DmC DE are about even
Ease of play
2 > DmC > DmC DE = 5 > 4SE > 3SE > 4 > 3 > 1

How much more are we talking?

And you read to me as a dead set on hating everything about gow, just because you want to hate it.

This. I've got enough gold orbs to easily beat DMD mode and the only thing stopping me is feeling dirty for doing so.

Ok? I heard the halos and cod have some pretty wack unlockable difficulty levels. Doesn't make them good, or hard, at that.

>Make it so you can dodge in any direction right off the bat.
Fully agree, I get that they want the player to learn new moves at a steady pace to avoid getting overwhelmed but there are many things in the store that should be considered basic movements

Right so just a mission structure with smoother transitions between missions? That's not so bad then as long as you can select them manually after clearing the game once and the walking/climbing sections that mask load times are kept very unintrusive. Though it is a good deal of extra work for very little gain desu

10 or so times

yes because inflated health and damage with no changes to enemy placement and ai behavior isn't artificial. retard

Those load points would also be save points. Click the button, there you are at the top of the ladder. The level name can display after the previous one’s scores stop displaying

>bosses
Not only for them. Keep it for sponges like nobody, proto angelo and behemoths

Ah kind of like what DMC5 does

(Order of : Bringer, DTBringer, Buster Arm, Buster Arm Breakage)

Empusa: 150, 225, 300, 3375

Empusa Queen: 202, 290, 430, 1647

Riot: 150, 220, 300, 3675

Chaos: 150, 220, 300, 3750

Baphomet: 175, 225, 350, 3375

Hell Caina: 200, 300, 400, 4500

Hell Judecca: 250, 410, 500, 2100

Scudo Angelo: 250, 375, 500, 3000

Fury: 400, 600, 800, 9000

Hell Antenora: 150, 225, 300, 3375

Seems like a waste of time for little to no gain. In fact i think this would annoy me a lot more than a load screen.

Every element of a video game is artificial.

I hate it because it's not fun to play.

ok well that does sound enticing
still, it doesn't have much going for it and that's just sad, none of the other arms get supplanted in the game

also, what the fuck does the massage hand actually do? I've been trying to figure it out but all I can see is it dildos back and forth.

>That Fury breakage damage

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>run into ghost scissors before the berserkers' introduction on SoS
No, not at all.

>what the fuck does the massage hand actually do?
Literally vital star

You do know that higher difficulties also change up enemy placement in gow right? Of course you didn't.

no wonder I didn't notice anything, just jumped around with it on with full health until I got hit
should've figured

Slow-acting heal, break age is a vital star

>

>Though it is a good deal of extra work for very little gain desu
The only difficulty I can see would be in the work to make the passages between the levels, it seems so me like the entire chapters would still follow a menu-level-menu pattern, and the save points/scores would be relatively simple subroutines within the larger level.
I’m talking out of my ass though, if someone can correct me, please do

no I wouldn't touch that turd if you paid me
your statement was wrong, own to it, bitch

yes but it can be done badly.

So you got reskined draugur 5 levels above you in the beginning?

It dildos back and forth to recover health slowly during combat. The caveat is that if you get hit, then it breaks. You can also use Break Age to get a burst of health.

I don't know, honestly DMC does a good enough job at making itself accessible to casuals as is just by having difficulties and basing high level gameplay around just making yourself look cool to your own enjoyment rather than actually being able to progress.

Probably just make some timing windows bigger, and make it so stingers don't knock enemies back by default (this has never not been annoying, sue me).

>reskinned draugur

The enemies are different though. Honestly, the game is pretty good about making sure that things don't just feel like reskins of each other.

>5 levels above you

What does this mean when you're basically "max level" after beating the game once? Meaning that the placement is all different in subsequent difficulty playthroughs?

As for if it’s a lot of work, see As for annoyance, what would be different about it that would annoy you? You still can return to the menu at any time, and from the menu choose your the level which you will then start at the beginning of

>tfw nero got a gap closer without knockback
>and an aerial version
oh yes

I would make a begginner character who doesn't as complex of a moveset as Dante but can be used as a stepping stone to further their play. Give them a limited arsenal and tools to assist gameplay like a grappling hook.
......

>Just imagine interconnected maps

No fuck off with this open world shit, not every game has to have it. DMC levels are meant to be an assault course not a fucking maze.

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>make it so stingers don't knock enemies back by default
Dumbass

Just make the dodge roll a dedicated button like Bayo.
The rest is fine.

>replace complicated level design with straight corridors
>introduce character that lets beginner players get easy SSS with one button
>make MC say fuck you every 10 minutes
>shower players with gold orbs until they have enough to get through any challenge unscathed

oh wait

Git gud like the rest of us did user.

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Make Dante but with dedicated buttons for every style

Post 10 seconds of you playing DMC.

Normal mode is ridiculously easy, yeah, but SoS is a decent challenge and DMD is fuck off difficult

pointless. each style is supposed to be an improvement over something you already have. except for royal guard, closest thing for that would be parrying I guess.
swordmaster = Y/Square
gunslinger = B/Circle
trickster = A/X

with that said, I would try to improve the styles in terms of what moves should be allowed. air combos probably shouldn't be restricted to SM and charged shot for GS. for the former, helmsplitter can be a directional input to allow aerial rave on the melee button. I also think shredder is redundant since there is already launcher. just replace it with a "heavy" attack.

Make it more like BAYONETTA . I can't pull off combos as easily in this game because each weapon has a charge and it's extremely hard to hold down all the weapon buttons to do combos.
>Have to rev sword while charging gun while switch him between lock on and lock off to grapple enemies with devil breaker and use it's abilities meanwhile I'm supposed to time my slashes too

It's just way too much. Bayonetta does combos better. One button for punch and guns, kick and guns and dodge button.

Nier was onto greatness but they didn't flesh out the combat enough.

Basically just give the game better mobility, better animations, and open up the combat to give you more options(tiny corridors with only a handful of enemies aren't very fun).

I'm convinced this is because of Bayonetta WiiU/Switch secondaries trying their first DMC game and not liking the absence of easy mode witch time.

don't forget fisting the enemy when you hit them with your sword to keep them from getting knocked away
yeah, they went a bit overboard

see

Is Character Action the accepted term for these games? I'm not a huge fan of it

"stylish action" makes more sense

Fuck off casual

What about for games like Vanquish or Ninja Gaiden?

>dedicated dodge button.
This.

I already S ranked most of the missions.
It's not about being hard to pull off, it's about how the camera can fuck you over since you can only roll left/right and the camera can do 360 spins with how crazy some arenas can get making the current roll unreliable for anything that isn't 1v1.

Man, you threw in all the buzzwords that ruins old classics in one coherent sentence. Kinda impressive.

Snatch grabs two during DT. Wire Snatch grabs one
Snatch can hold. Wire snatch can't
Snatch can't pull heavy enemies
Wire snatch can with Raw hide
Wire snatch can't be used while charging breakage
Snatch can
They both have a purpose and they both need to exist.

Your double digit IQ is showing.

Why did they lock normal mode until you cleared once. I was falling asleep with the easy mode. Like, if you played DMC before devil Hunter is fucking cake walk.

Give Nero an optional Dodge button, which just triggers his roll (with Table Hopper proccing) in any 360 direction.
Dante should have the option to trigger style actions on switch (i.e. the user can bind a Trickster Button, a Swordmaster Button, a Royalguard Button, and a Gunslinger Button, rather than switch buttons and a Style Button)

the loading screens are a bit much

The loading screens are too long for how many times you can fuck up on DMD.

You're a fucking faggot. All three of those things bring the game down hard.

>And i say this as a dmc fan.
Never has "and i say that as an x fan" ever been the fucking case ever.
It's a tool used by tools to artificially give their argument more weight when none exists.

Anyways you're right. GOMGoW IS more difficult than DMD in a completely broken as shit game way. Mooks 1-2 shot you through all of early game, projectile enemies in inaccessible locations have to be slowly picked off by throwing your axe at them, and most of your fights have you overspacing and taking far longer due to all the enemies having massively inflated healthbars to go with their comically high damage.

The gear system in the face of this gets broken off it's ass as defensively equipping yourself gives you, at most, 1 entire extra healths hit worth of damage versus just overpowering as hard as you can, all problems that you're faced. Of difficulty modes, it's the worst balanced I've played in a character action game and beating it that way was an aggressively unfun experience.

It did it's job and nearly tripled the play length. But maybe in the next game they can think about difficulties in terms of things other than stat pads and make non shit difficulty modes.

DMD ain't the hardest shit I've ever played. I've spent more time on a single stage in CVIII in my childhood than I spent in all of DMD, but it's a modest challenge that's actually fun and only requires you know a little bit more about enemy types and the options you have available.

Okay I got it, here's how you improve style switching.
You already have dedicated sword gun and dodge/jump buttons right?
So intead of swithing stules you could hold L2 for example and that would switch those imputs into a 'powered up' version
So for example regular A press would stay the same but A+L2 would be the trickster moveset
X +L2 would be gunslinger etc . You can leave B for royal guard and make the arrow keys switch weapons intead so up down for guns and left right for arms which will allow you to actually switch backwards.
And there you have it, easier more fluid style switching without removing anything.

Dante's always had air combos outside of swordmaster you insufferable shit, just not with Rebellion. Them moving Aerial Rave to Y was to free up inputs and deepen his moveset, not dumb it down. And SDT is worthless on higher difficulties outside of Quadruple S.

Pausable cutscenes.

I would never say the game is difficult
I played it on the highest difficulty and there is a difference for a game being hard or shitty designed. Its combat feels very lackluster and limits you in ways that don't fit it on higher difficulty.

>not a nigger
>own an SSD
>never noticed the loading screens

You mean Y/Triangle

Why do so many people seem to have such a beef with Styles being mapped to the D-pad?

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I know this isn't the argument you are having, but quadruple S might be the best thing about SDT. It's brilliant. A high level use for an otherwise boring power up that demands excellent play to utilize.

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They lack the finger dexterity to switch styles and want the entire game made easier to compensate for that fact.

What are your button placements nigga?

Add QTEs everybody likes those.

It's clunky and can be done better

>Make it more like BAYONETTA . I can't pull off combos as easily in this game because each weapon has a charge
Literally all weapons in Bayonetta have a charge.

It's literally a feature of combat system.

You need to hold buttons to do dodge offset.

> make it more accessible
DMCV is already dumbed down to MMORPG levels with anime superpowers that play the game for you and ranking made possible to S-rank on first try and most of the enemies MAJORLY slowed down and frame windows widened

>Dante's always had air combos outside of swordmaster
you only had helmsplitter

What depth?

You need to read a bit further than that, user.

? it is, you can spam y and beat the game without combos

i find it uncanny how much he looks like Dan in the second panel

Add a big glowing circle/x button above an enemy's head when they can be Bustered.

It was a good addition to 4 but I think they could have come up with a better solution. Since dpad buttons are relegated to switching already, I think it would make more sense to give them to weapons, r/l for devil arms u/d for swords.
Now you've freed up two shoulder buttons, and you've got the style button as well. Map three styles to those buttons.
Maybe gunslinger could be integrated into the shoot button? It doesn't have any directional commands.

The literal only way to use LiB effectively is to use holds in combination with dodge offset which also requires holds.

It's called jump, Gerbera, Trickster and Royalguard

>It doesn't have any directional commands.
hat trick.
>map weapons to the d-pad
Same problem but with weapons now. It would also take just as long to switch to new weapons and impossible to change both your gun next and your sword previous at the same time.

So you've taken a supposed problem and made it potentially worse.

what devil arm granted him air combos outside of swordmaster?

??? DMC5 is already accessible as fuck.

>farming red orbs is easier than ever
>you can use red orb revivals to shave off enemy health
>gold orbs are plentiful
>rank system massively simplified so that it no longer takes time, orbs collected and damage taken into account
>Dr. Faust when fully upgraded is an "I Win" button that can kill bosses on DMD in seconds
>Devil Hunter difficulty way, way easier than Normal on DMC3 and DMC1

How much more accessible does it need to be before you find it acceptable?

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Gunslinger has quite a few directional commands, Twosome Time being a very particular one.

>Dante must die
I'm doing my best

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agni and rudra
cerberus
beowulf

You can't change your gun to next and your sword to previous right now anyway , unless you only have two swords in which case you could just hit two directions at once for the desired effect. Meanwhile it would eliminate style switching, giving you less to switch total.
Gunslinger does, I meant the shoot button doesn't. I guess it does now in hat trick though.

Lucifer is one that pops into my head.

I actually did this with my controller on Steam, it’s a fucking revelation and I don’t know how I ever lived without it.

Having DT be on D-Up is a little weird at first but since Nero’s also works that way it’s not TOO out-there. Weapon switch on D-Left and D-Right feels fine, it’s only a little clunky in SDT due to the way its trigger specials are coded (they’re hard-bound to your weapon switch commands)

does gerbera have i-frames?

>agni and rudra
>cerberus
>beowulf
wrong, wrong and wrong

> BUT MUH JUMP CANCELS!
he was talking about simple auto combos

Ah. Well, I dunno man. Your idea just doesn't seem to sit right with me. Also generaly pretty sure that D-pads aren't very receptive to dual inputs that are opposite of each other.

skip gameplay button.
thats just for nolifers.

>You can't change your gun to next and your sword to previous right now anyway
Correct. You use rapid presses which triggers allow you to do faster. With obvious exceptions, most combos have more individual weapon switch presses than style change presses in general.

This makes this worse. The buttons you use the most are now in the worst position for repeated presses.

It's honestly a bad design. There are ways to make it way more enjoyable and fluid without sacrificing anything

lock on + horizontal input + A

name the move.

Why is it bad though?

series has had auto mode for a long time.

Add in an assist mode and make it OPTIONAL

This way everyone is happy.

Yeah, an insane amount of them in fact.

Have a new character function as a bare bones "basic" character with the Style/DB button functioning as a dedicated dodge button for the whiners. This character doesn't have any of the cool shit the others do, but it's a baby mode for whiners who won't stop bitching.

the great amount of freedom in approach to fight enemies.

I could've sworn it took multiple presses do it, but I guess Splash was a single input. My bad.

Are the loading screens like....not fast for people? They're almost instant for me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)

unnecessary inputs. if they were going to give all styles available then they might as well have mapped some of them as dedicated buttons. I think 3 did styles the best since it was balanced very well around which ever one you chose.

>most combos have more individual weapon switch presses than style change presses in general
I don’t think that’s really true, and if it’s true for you I think it’s because you’re following the path of least resistance. I actually bound dedicated style buttons for my Dante controls and I’m telling you, the ease with which I can sky star > rainstorm > aerial swordmaster far outweighs the challenge.

Especially since style commands often involve directional inputs but weapon switching never does; if I have to take my thumb off the movement stick to do something, changing a weapon is something I can typically do faster since I wouldn’t immediately need my thumb back on the movement stick.

Are you referring specifically to mode errors?

How did you do that? Did you set up some macro to press switch and hold the style button?

if you had to cycle through the styles it would be much harder to pull of any decent chaining of styles.
dpad is simple and makes more sense.

Why in the fuck would you lower the skill ceiling in 5? Don't change anything, the game is fine. The only problems I see are that there's too much loading screens, the checkpoint system takes way too long (especially on consoles), the repeated "Gold Orb" message. that's it. implementing a dedicated dodge button is a very stupid idea.

Whenever I used a style other than Trickster, I found myself missing Trick. Whenever I used a style other than Swordmaster, I missed Aerial Rave. When I used a style other than Gunslinger, I found myself missing the expanded gun techniques. When I used a style other than Royal Guard, I missed having guard.

I was always dissatisfied because something was missing.

you cant. they are mutually exclusive

>Just replace long loading screens with long elevator rides or long corridors to walk down and it's suddenly better
I hate you people so much.

cycling through styles is an even WORSE implementation of modes

particular implementation of modes makes no difference -- it's all gonna be bad

hey, the elevators were the best part of that game
loved the banter

Don't revivals penalize your rank? I've never used them because it feels cheap.

>i don't think that's really true
It is. Donguri does tons of style switching in 4SE but he too mostly uses weapon presses in 5
youtube.com/watch?v=4wFg7iMFNXQ
but most combos for other people that are plenty flashy don't have that much outright style switching when compared to weapon switching. Pick your poison
youtube.com/watch?v=V-26Qy1sn48&t=1s
youtube.com/watch?v=NL3qBCtoo_c
youtube.com/watch?v=h_DVW9PsdAA

>the path of least resistance
That would be swapping styles and ignoring weapon switching altogether. Essentially playing Dante like a discount Nero.

>it's all gonna be bad
I think it's fine as it is, as far as style button mapping goes.

>cycle through the styles
maybe read

Steam rebinder interface. It worked really well across all characters until Nero got his DT because it uses all the D-Pad directions to trigger it instead of one, so post-game I had to add a separate setup for Dante and use a keyboard macro to toggle it on and off unfortunately. Basically it works like this:

>bind Style Action to an unused key (I chose D-Pad down, but it doesn’t matter what you pick)
>bind your Styles to accessible buttons (I chose B for Swordmaster, RT for Trickster, LT for Royalguard, LB for Gunslinger)
>bind weapon switch and DT to the D-Pad (I did Gun DL, Melee DR, Devil Trigger DU)
Then, in Steam’s rebinder itself
>for each button you’ve mapped to a Style (B, LB, LT, RT), use Multi-Button to also map a D-Pad Down press

When you press the button, the game will instantly switch your style and perform the action. Mercifully the game is coded well so that style switches are ALWAYS processed BEFORE the style action when the inputs occur on the same frame, meaning you never do the style action of your last-used style before the switch is read by the game. It just works, perfectly, no lag and no headaches.

Which is more than I can say for DMC4, where I tried to use this same setup but a combination of inexact frame timing and later-on Mother Fucking Dark Slayer Style made it not work consistently.

I would make the hardest of the three starting difficulties easier than the easiest difficulties of past games, keep the easy/automatic mode that literally does everything for you, and add an instant revive system DURING bosses so you don't even have to load a checkpoint or restart a boss fight when you die. Oh,
wait......

and thats all you can do user, good luck.

>Dark Slayer Style
i am so fucking elated that they removed that shit

and made possible to only have two weapons and two guns at a time

however forcing one of these 2 to be a sword and guns is terrible -- DMC3 allowed you to combinations like Cerberus+Nevan but 5 can't

it's like negative progress with these clowns

That's neat. Did you try any other macro software for 4? My mouse's bloatware lets you insert pauses, set timings, etc. Got "hide thread" on a mouse button and it wouldn't play nice until I inserted a small delay. Sounds like the same situation as you ran into with 4.

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5's styles are stronger than 3's styles. In 4 things were bad because Dante himself was weak as shit outside of DRI so you had to utilise everything in his arsenal to even keep up in a game balanced around Nero, in 5 his expanded and updated arsenal means you can pick one style, one DA, and one gun and wreck shit just as hard as anyone else with the same amount of effort without having to breakdance with your fingers.

then map the important stuff onto the controller. aerial rave can be done on a single button like with nero while charged shots and twosome time can be mapped on the same button. flesh out the styles to have useful things that aren't extremely important.

>forcing one of these 2 to be a sword and guns is terrible
>he doesn't know

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>however forcing one of these 2 to be a sword and guns is terrible -- DMC3 allowed you to combinations like Cerberus+Nevan but 5 can't
What are you trying to say here?

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>however forcing one of these 2 to be a sword and guns is terrible
This is why I come to these threads

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Stop dicking around and go beat SoS already.

okay how are they not already on dedicated buttons?

I would make Devil May Cry 5
What the fuck are you trying to start here, OP?

Literally Git Gud because once you beat the game on SoS, they add Irregular Full Custom to Dante’s shop, which lets you alter your loadout however you want. You can take off ALL your weapons, you can run Rebellion, DSS and DSD together, you can use all 3 Kalina Anns, etc

The only negative progress was taking Drive/Overdrive off of Rebellion and DSS for no discernable fucking reason. I prefer DSD but for players who don’t, the removal of those classic moves from the set was a pointless headache.

You have to press one button to equip a style and another button to use it. What we’re discussing is instead of having 5 buttons for that, just having 4 buttons, each of which does the style action of its associated style directly.

>you can use all 3 Kalina Anns
no i can not, because i didn't buy Cuckpom day 1 DLC

unless double rocket launcher will also unlock after beating a mode

Because you have a style button, and 4 mode-shift buttons. The former isn't a dedicated anything, since it does everything. The latter aren't either since they do jack shit but shift the mode of how the former functions. Retard.

>because i didn't buy Cuckpom day 1 DLC
>double Kali

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You know you can switch styles on the fly right?
Need to guard or dodge, switch to Royalguard, need to shoot, switch to Gunslinger, need to expand your moveset, switch to Swordmaster. Part of the process of mastering Dante is learning how to be able dance between the different styles and switch for whatever is necessary. You don’t “lose” anything, you have all moves accessible at all times, you just need to press more than one button to do so.

There are two missions in the game, 10 and 11, where you can find the Kalina Ann that Lady dropped just lying on the ground. Once you have it, you can equip it; once you have Kalina Ann 2, you can equip Double Kalina Anns OR either Kalina Ann, but they’re locked apart like with Reb/DSS/DSD. Irregular Full Custom lets you run them all together. Not that you’d necessarily want to since 1 and 2 are identical

okay that's good to know

day 1 DLC still sucks

In DMC3 I mean. That guy said that DMC3's method was better.

that seems like it would be messy as hell for any input other than the base style move. forward + [X] with 4 other buttons + your weapons is too much clutter.

Doesn’t matter, what I said holds true for every DMC with Styles.

Yes, it really does, especially when it’s not the purely cosmetic bonuses like Alt Style Rank Announcers (because Gerbera GP01 is the best Breaker in the game).

Yeah, which is why he was talking about his button setup and how he put weapon switching and DT on the D-pad since they're never used with directional inputs, while style(execution, not switching) often is.

How do you miss Kalina Ann? How retarded do you have to be to get mad about a problem that doesn't exist? Sort your fucking life out.

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They already did it with 5? Game is way easier than previous entries until late difficulties and none of Dante's styles are "only for high level players" now that royal guard without timing the guard is actually viable for newcomers since all it does is eat a bit of DT gauge and you'll still generate plenty of RG gauge.

I'm two ways about that, mostly due to the fact that none of that shit (outside of announcers and themes) are usable in BP. But my actual hope is that the sales on that DLC makes the heads at Capcom think "hey there's a market in long time support for this game" and that as a result they give Itsuno and his team the okay to make new weapons and content for it going down the line.

Wouldn't that be great?

so from what I read from this thread, here are the few things that could change.
>dedicated dodge button
I'm on the fence for this one since jump is fine and the game provides other ways to avoid damage but I can see why one would want this since it could as a dedicated trickster button as well.

>adding a second melee button
swordmaster already does this but it's a style for reason. a lot of people would prefer having on all times so adding another melee button could negate the need to switch to swordmaster.

>this post

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Stylish Action games-as-service hasn’t been done yet, it’s untapped potential until Babylon’s Fall comes out

>But my actual hope is that the sales on that DLC makes the heads at Capcom think "hey there's a market in long time support for this game"
> unironically wishing games-as-a-service action game
are you for reals

lock on + jump should always a roll towards that direction, not just to the sides
prove me wrong

So I see regular buster arm is always double damage compared to regular bringer and the breakage is pretty much insane. Still feels a bit dumb to equip an ability you already have on another button albeit weaker when you could be equipping something completely different.

not him, but we only get like 1 or 2 of these type of games every year.
it would be nice to have some sort of support for the game down the line, just some weapon packs or story-dlcs would be great

Well yes. The game felt like a finished product and I want to play more of it. And have more to look at in the future.

Dragon's Dogma was great but was made greater with Dark Arisen.
3 was great but was made better with SE
4 was great but etc
I want to be able to look forward to extra shit for 5 as well but without having to fork over the price of an entirely new game.

Especially when these types of games aren't exactly made frequently
It'd be overall cheaper too.

I really dislike Dr. Faust, feels like a pay2win weapon, would much rather have Pandora

No it doesn't. Did you forget that DMC3 didn't have style switching? Or did you forget that the style switching mod was, in fact, a mod that was never part of the base game?

It worked fine in Dragon’s Dogma, but it would be a little irritating trying to jump after using a lock+back or lock+forward command to chase an enemy.

>Launch enemy
>Jump to combo them
>Do a roll instead
Anyone who actually dodges stuff using the side roll is retarded.

yes? I'd absolutely pay more new bosses that add more weapons.

>The game felt like a finished product
the what now?..

half of the "chapters" is single boss encounters a-la Bayonetta, another half is made of 3 fights tops

chapter that you have to replay 2 and 3 times

last 2 chapters where all plot lines get "solved" through Nero ex machina and Vergil going "i must go now, my planet needs me"

5 is rehashed even more than 4

that's like complaining you accidentally stinger while trying to walk up to an enemy and attack

>5 is rehashed even more than 4
Jesus fucking christ I know Yea Forums is retarded but this is some next level shit.

Walking up to an enemy right in front of you and attacking requires far less precision and takes far longer than having to jump immediately after launching with Crystal or Flint Wheel and following up with an air combo. And all you'd gain for fucking up that flow is a more diverse roll despite rolling being objectively worse than every other method of dodging.

Make rawhide affect snatch. There, I've fixed everything.

its only shortcoming is the end's story. even then the last 2 missions gameplay wise were great

and the rest of the game is amazing

Not an argument dmcuck

>How do you miss Kalina Ann?
I didn't find the second one till my DMD run

Just consider Faust to be nothing but it's hat trick and red orb shield and you'll be fine. Because it's pretty good at that job.

Of course if you want to use the entirety of faust than just disable faust 4, 3, and 2. That keeps the prices at a level that's actually fair to what the weapon can do.

>even more than 4
Excuse me?
Double boss chapters aren't common even in this series and some chapters had no bosses at all in both this and previous games.
Having TWO chapters (3 if you count V's rematches) where you fight the same battles is not the same as going through the entire game backwards.
>Replay 2 and 3 times
Feel free to not do that then. There's only two chapters like that.
>Nero ex Machina
That would imply Nero isn't involved and was unlikely to solve the issue. Deus ex Machina is used way too much in pop culture without people actually knowing how to properly use it.
If Vergil truly wanted Dante dead he would have killed him immediately after refusing.

But I've gotten dragged into your pace. Let's fix that:
Yes felt like a finished product.
All the modes were there
There were tons of new weapons
There was an entirely new character
The length was decent
Nero got tons of new options
Dante got tons of new options

It felt like a complete game. What did you think was missing?

>DMC's focus is in combat and replayability so the purpose of level design is to simply stay out of the way
This is what 4fags actually believe.

Even 3 had a good amount of backtracking and running around doing puzzles. If you want to experience pure combat just play bloody palace. Story mode should have a certain amount of exploration.

How does removing wire snatch make the game more accessible?

But jump is the dedicated jump button

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>All the modes were there
lol no

> There were tons of new weapons
TWO (brokeback mountain hat and a wieldable bike) new weapons is "tons" now?

>Even 3 had a good amount of backtracking
One (and the greatest being 3) screens of backtracking is not a "decent" amount. And puzzles amount to a single point branching into 1+ rooms that all led immediately back to that point upon completion.

Now DMC1 had tons of backtracking. That's irrefutable. 3? Not so much.

>lol no
yes
LDK was only included in a pc release and is in no other game but 4 PC and 4SE.
>two
Double Kali, Balrog's kick mode, DSD and summoned swords, (everything related to SDT), Cavaliere, half of King Cerb.
and save us both the embarrassment by not pulling a "that doesn't count". These weapons weren't in 4 but they're in 5.

Again what did you think was missing? Feel free to shit on the game all you want, but form an actual argument on why you think it wasn't a finished game.

>easy auto mode been in since 1
>easy mode is available from the start or "is now selectable"
>V or DMC4 Nero as the easy to use guy for newbies and/or brainlets
Seems like they did already desu
>forgetting cerberus getting a revamp to the point where it's not even the same as 3
>omitting what the fuck they did to regular swords with DSD
>no mention of Double KA
It's not the amount that we got in 3 (I wish we did get 5 weapons max for Devil arms and Guns each if you count swords in general as just 1)

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>DSD's new mechanics don't count
>KC essentially being a new weapon with more than 2/3 of it's moveset being completely new doesn't count
>fucking balrog doesn't count
>lmao2ann doesn't count

>and save us both the embarrassment by not pulling a "that doesn't count"
typing "inb4" does NOT invalidate obvious criticism and make your defense impregnable
nor it will make you into an alexander

This
Left/right+lock+jump doesn't feel natural, I'd rather jump or trickster dash

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depends if you want utility or power

besides both are quit strong abilities that give you different style points so why not use both?

>does NOT invalidate obvious criticism
It does when the criticism is a literal non factor. Over half of King Cerbs moveset is unique. Double Kali is unique. Balrogs kickmode is unique. And DSD in relation to it's summoned swords and SDT are also unique.

I inb4'd because I knew you were headed there when you only mentioned two, as hyperbole is often the tool used by people who can't form actual arguments.

Even if we removed double Kali, that's 4 new weapons. It's a good amount.

Now feel free to explain why the game is unfinished.

>think the heart is just a silly animation
>the heart is made out of summoned swords
All the power in the world and he uses it to shitpost.

I wish when Dante slicked his hair back in DMC4 when changing to Dark Slayer, it actually got pushed back into something like that

>HUMAN

I dont remember this whats it from?

3D beat em ups

Youre not supposed to just fucking whip out every tool in your arsenal in every fight from the get-go you are supposed to start with the basics then incorporate new moves into your arsenal as you get more and more comfortable. Much better than Bayonetta's gay fucking system where a lot of your options are locked behind strings so you have to dodge offset cancel strings while dodging aggressive enemies just to get the attacks you want and god forbid you mess up the inputs thats your whole string fucked. DMC's instantenous and way more intuitive even if it's more difficult to utilize your full arsenal

Some guy got Bloody Palace running

It doesn't need to, although Dante's sucessor need to do something about clawing and style switching
DMC is the only game where I will forgive this and actually claw but I can understand the people who won't do it. And honestly Dante is SHIT if you don't claw.

oh cool so its from bloody palace then nice

Is locking on + hold left/right + jump the shoryuken of action games?

>Much better than Bayonetta's gay fucking system where a lot of your options are locked behind strings
as opposed to ALL your options being locked behind styles?..

Bayo's attack strings don't even lock you from unique moves -- there are still command inputs to do the same

>Dante is SHIT if you don't claw.
did you never play 3? sure the styles are alittle gimped in 4 and 5 but without claw you should atleast be more capable than dmc3 dante levels considering you can still switch albeit slower

>and honestly Dante is SHIT if you don't claw.
That was the case for 4 because enemies and their spacing were outright designed with Nero in mind and Dante had to deal with this.
5 Dante is different. You don't need advanced movement techniques just to close the distance, you don't need to learn momentum based shenanigans. Hell you can stay in the air with just dsd and enemy step if that floats your boat.
You can S rank every fight in the game with only Balrog.

I will admit that Dante is significantly less fun if you don't' claw though.

not him but all of your damage is tied to your wicked weaves and (most) of those are locked behind strings. A non issue given dodge offset exists but Bayo 2 in particular is really annoying on IC since you need to constantly spam WT and (some) enemies can armour out of your juggles with (some) enemies letting you juggle them longer if you hit them from behind
Which kind of limits what you can do in regards to creative moveset freedom.

How are styles gimped in 5 compared to 3? Swordmaster and gunslinger outright have more moves, RG only drains DT on a mis-time and has an extra move, and Trickster has a ground-trick now. All styles are straight upgrades barring the exclusion of Doppelganger and Quicksilver which were always worse than DT in the first place.

>not him but all of your damage is tied to your wicked weaves and (most) of those are locked behind strings
Wicked weaves are not locked behind strings.

Locked behind styles means NOTHING when style switching can be done with a single fucking input. There are more time consuming inputs for normal attacks in Bayo like the various spin attacks. And the special moves do fuckall, you NEED wicked weaves to reset combo multipliers and do real damage

Most of them are. But you know what.? Maybe I'm misremembering something. It's been awhile since I played it on the Wii U as I stopped playing a little after I PP'd IC.

Please elaborate.

>Make Snatch available from the start, remove Wire Snatch.

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Besides the ones that use magic yes they are

>Jump
>Griffon/Shadow glide
>Gerbera
>Trickster

I dunno which game started the "press this to not get hurt" fad but it made a mistake.

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Pretty sure jumping had i-frame in 1 too.

>griffon's dodge
>even if an enemy is attacking you straight on (e.g. artemis dive) you're still better off using griffon because of the ridiculous amount of iframes on it
It's batshit insane. I don't even care when shadow dies because I just go stand where he died and griffon through anything trying to hurt me

meant to quote

>depth
that's something that simply never was there to begin with.

DMC5 already made DMC a shitton more accessible, Itsuno just mostly made it in smart ways that didn't bother fans too much.

You now always have full camera control like DmC.
Side dodges now give more i -frames than before
They made falling slower so that air combos are easier to pull off.
Devil Sword Dante streamlines Dante by giving him air combos without having to TRICKSWORDTRICKSWORDTRICKSWORD
Royal Guard eats DT before it eats health
Gunslinger got a big buff.
Movement outside of combat now feels way more natural.

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Behold, DMC5 - Modern gaming edition
>open explorable city
>"liberate districts from demons with copypaste missions"
>map packed full of useless collectibles
>boss fights simplified, killing blow is a big PRESS SQUARE to watch Dante/Nero/V do a cool thing
>"Dismal" changed to "Dope", can get style by spamming the same moves
>Dante only gets rebellion/DSD
>Unlockable moves locked behind exp instead of red orbs, can buy optionally via microtransactions
>loud guitar riff when going up a level, on-screen indicators for objectives and other useless info
>main story missions are mostly slow walking while following supporting character, occasionally fighting something
>BP is paid DLC
>devil breakers require crafting materials

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>>Movement outside of combat now feels way more natural.
It was really awful in DMC4 wasn't it? Before the speed part kicked in and they started sprinting it legit looked like they were running through jelly

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The thing I noticed the most is that you can keep mashing out air combos without needing to enemy step, which was one of the most important things in the older games.

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Sprint took 20 years to kick in too in vanilla 4, thankfully they fixed it in SE.

its already done, they call it human dificulty

K

Why would you even play the game if you don't want to be A LITTLE good at it, at that point you're only playing a corridor going from cutscene from cutscene. DMC is the kind of game that is designed with multiple runs in mind, for the player to keep improving and tyle harder.

Quick dopamine rush from seeing new content, progression systems and seeing numbers go up. That's modern gaming, when it isn't about the "cinematic experience".

>The harder stuff takes practice but that's extra
And that's what making it "accessible" is all about, dumbing the system down to appeal to the kind of people who don't want to actually get good at the game but pick it up and instantly style on everything even though 5 fucking does that if you want it too.

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forgot to add
>bring back buyable health orbs, they are super cheap and have a dedicated button

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god damn man, I remember when I used to play games because they were FUN and ENJOYABLE to play, not because I had to watch a fucking progression system go up.

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WW can be instant if you know what you're doing

You better not be talking about dodge offset cancelling strings into WW or the instant WW that spend magic meter because then you're just being disingenuous.

sounds like EA making their own DMC

this post gave me cold sweats

He's probably not talking about dodge offset because that's stupid. You technically get WW's by spending magic but then you have access to Infernal Weaves which should be used instead so I'm not sure what he's on about. But it's been ages since I've played Bayo 2.

DMC has always been modern and accessible. I wouldn't change anything about it

>style switching can be done with a single fucking input
style switching requires 2 (two) fucking inputs

command inputs in bayonetta are 1 (one) fucking input

> There are more time consuming inputs for normal attacks
as opposed to "normal" options like dodging requiring TWO inputs due to style switching?

> And the special moves do fuckall, you NEED wicked weaves to reset combo multipliers
wrong

"reset combo multipliers" -- combo multiplier goes up on multiple occasions not just wicked weaves

Bayo's combo multiplier is literally the same mechanics as style rank. Think of all the times style rank goes up in DMC -- many of those apply to Bayo as well: think successful parrying, close shave dodging and so on

> And the special moves do fuckall
> and do real damage
wrong again

You can output DOUBLE wicked weave in Bayonetta from the get go, triple wicked weave even
>Please elaborate
you can output wicked weaves at any moment using command input
see tetsuzanko and heel stomp

>see tetsuzanko and heel stomp
Which is why I said "most" and not all. An overwhelming majority of your WW's are tied to strings.
Also single input wicked weaves to do damage overall than combo wicked weaves. The same is true for infernal weave. And LiB is far better as a result because you can quickly get to your weave depending on the fight by cancelling the attack with your dodge offset, which is the first thing you learn to do.

Honestly for a second there when you interjected I thought I missed something but you just confused "most" with "all" no biggy.

>style switching requires 2 (two) fucking inputs
It's literally one press of the d-pad, user. I'm not gonna read the rest of your post because of the sheer stupidity you started with

Those command inputs can only be done when you have enough magic meter though so again a prerequisite and limiting your options
>"reset combo multipliers" -- combo multiplier goes up on multiple occasions not just wicked weaves
No what I'm talking about is rather the base value of points that the multiplier gets applied to which drops on consecutive attacks and needs to be reset with WW
>as opposed to "normal" options like dodging requiring TWO inputs due to style switching?
No you need two inputs to do air dodges to extend your air time, you don't need any of that to just dodge which can be done with rolling or just jumping and unlike Bayo you aren't going to get combo'd by Gracious & Glorious during an air combo either

DMC5 is basically that tho.

DMC has always been easy on normal (except 3's initial release). The difficulty is in getting a good rank.

>An overwhelming majority of your WW's are tied to strings.
there are no such thing as "overwhelming majority" wicked weaves

there are maybe 3-4 types of WW overall

of which all of them can be done via command inputs

okay launching wicked weave can't be replicated but you can do actual launcher for that via -- again -- command input

> infernal weave
are not wicked weaves at all

infernal weaves are more akin to Sin Devil Trigger if anything

> Also single input wicked weaves to do damage overall than combo wicked weaves
Pretty sure most of the damage in a dodge offsetted attack string happens because of dodge gunfire (shells even get HUEG and HUEGER the deeper you go) not because of WW per se

you need TWO inputs to do actual move

>there are no such thing as "overwhelming majority" wicked weaves
You what?
Every single ender in your combos for every single weapon ignoring Raksha, normal guns
I.;E the literal things you're aiming for and things you need to do to get a good rank my man.

>All of them which can be done via command inputs
*some with *some weapons
Unless I'm remembering something incorrectly the big fuck off hammer has no command wicked weaves.

We'd also be ignoring the reason SF is so strong to begin with and why the hammer is disgustingly OP in Bayo 2.
>dodge gunfire
It's from hang gunfire DURING your WWs.
>are akin to sin devil trigger
No they aren't. They're the exact same combo string, do far more damage, and one of them is actually a detriment against Sloths. SDT requires a separate charging mechanic. Has different moves and only becomes a detriment in HaH. They're nothing alike m8.

You're splitting hairs (no pun intended) that because you can do "some" WWs without input, it's the equivalent of doing all of them without input. We haven't even started talking about the scoring either.

>Royal Guard eats DT before it eats health
And you get a fucking shitton of DT for hitting your guards. Most of the fights you can miss royal guards half of the time and still get enough DT for a full heal. I practiced RG(extremely poorly) for like an hour on Virgil and didn't need any continues despite eating a ton of damage.

>No what I'm talking about is rather the base value of points that the multiplier gets applied to which drops on consecutive attacks and needs to be reset with WW
That even MORE wrong

that counter is COMPLETELY irrelevant and will only apply if you only use nunchucks

you never need to reset it artificially in casual play -- let alone during heavy action gameplay

EVERYTHING bar regular punch and kicks resets that stupid completely irrelevant counter.

jump cancel -- resets the counter
parrying (both basic and frame perfect) -- resets the counter
torture attack -- resets the counter
attacking enemy in the air -- resets the counter
tetsuzanko -- resets the counter

Aha, you say but "tetsuzankos requires magic" you say -- but that's wrong again because tetsuzankos ACTUALLY is not the wicked weave itself that they expend the magic on, it's the shoulder body slam that Bayo makes regardless if you have magic or not

ANY special move -- resets the counter

Every single action resets the counter.

> Those command inputs can only be done when you have enough magic meter
Which Bayonetta gives you for EVERY action.

See that list above for resetting the counter -- all that list applies to giving magic

> again a prerequisite and limiting your options
like style-switching which forces you to make extra inputs for all options?

Oh and now I'm on the topic. With somebody I'm assuming is familiar with the game. What the hell was the point of that bow. Like you could use it on enemies that would normally dodge gunfire but what the fuck else was it good for.

>It's from hang gunfire DURING your WWs.
Wicked Weaves are ACKCHUALLY only the arms and legs that come from portals

Attack strings by themselves are not WW.

You can have WW without string and strings without wicked weaves as well

> bayo 2 stuff
i mostly talk about Bayonetta 1

> We haven't even started talking about the scoring either.
The scoring works even without Wicked Weaves -- that's why Regular magicless guns exist in Bayonetta 1

>make it more accessible

Why?

>not the wicked weave itself that they expend the magic on, it's the shoulder body slam that Bayo makes regardless if you have magic or not

Literally what difference does it make if it still required magic for an instant WW? Pointless semantics

>Which Bayonetta gives you for EVERY action.

No it doesn't it gives them for certain high risk actions you earn mid combat adding a pre-requisite for every action that actually requires TIME unlike DMC's inputs that are mere frames away. This is like saying that the dp is locked behind some inputs, it's not true since you can do the input at any point and have it come out in a matter of frames with no pre-requisites. Besides that's just WW anyway, a bunch of the moves even some with unique properties like the spinning kicks are also tucked away in strings

THis sounds awful. Why do the interconnected maps improve anything? Now I have to spend time going from A to B instead of doing what I bought the game for; sick combos.

>doesn't play the game
>doesn't play on higher difficulties

>gee whizz how do i beat this color coded enemy?

>Literally what difference does it make if it still required magic for an instant WW?
Here i am talking about resetting the stupid counter that you make such a big deal of.

you can do "empty" magicless tetsuzanko without magic and that will still reset the counter.

> for certain high risk actions you earn mid combat
> Torture attack
> high risk action

> literally jumping
> high risk action

> literally dodging (with or without Witch Time)
> high risk action

>i mostly talk about Bayonetta 1
Ah. I'm mostly talking in Bayo 2. I had tons of fun with that but after I PPd like a few months later tag climax kind of stopped being a thing. And then my wii u external died from human error and the resulting heartbreak made me drop the game forever and ever.

Attached: dmc3 i frames.webm (480x320, 2.02M)

>dedicated

>And then my wii u external died from human error and the resulting heartbreak made me drop the game forever and ever.
same bra

also lost my Pure Platinum save for Bayo 2 (which was eh since i kinda lost the will to play the game halfway in) and for Bayo 1 (which HURTTTTT)

Bruh why the fuck are you adding an interconnected world for no fucking reason, what they did in DMC5 with short levels that have varied paths through them is fine, you fucking faggot.

What the fuck is the hub world going to be anyway? Why bother?

>literally just press a button and direction

That's something you learn to accommodate with and if you haven't noticed, each button is already being used for something so where the fuck does the dedicated dodge button go? You already have X.

Make it look and sound like dmc3

>and
exactly

>you can do "empty" magicless tetsuzanko without magic and that will still reset the counter.

Oh that's what you meant, fair enough

It all comes down to dodging because torture attacks require magic meter too and dodging itself means you're in close proximity to enemies, it's RELATIVELY high risk obviously since dodging is something you'll be doing a lot either way but it demonstrates the fundamental difference between how styles "gate" your options and how Bayo gains your options you can't just say they're equivalent because they are not

how would you switch breakers

not quite. The dodges in that webm were done without a direction at all. And games with dedicated dodge buttons also have directions you can dodge in.

No, because what if I want to stay in a style for a long period of time and not have to worry about having the trigger pressed constantly?

>pay2win weapon
>helps you grind the resource you spend

>not quite
yes quite
that is what a dedicated anything button means

>you can't just say they're equivalent because they are not
that's what i am saying all along

DMC way gates your options behind extra inputs

Bayo does not

Lock someone in a room, force them to simultaneously fight 10 Furies on DMD difficulty and not let them leave until they're the only one left standing and they get SSS for the fight.

Not gonna argue the first 2 but
>Gameplay felt clunky
This is only the case when you don't fully get used to V

>Itsuno spent almost 9 years making this game, fucking ungrateful retards
He didn't

Development started in 2015, after DMC4 Special Edition.
Prior to that he made Dragon's Dogma, the updated version Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen, and the DmC DLC that focused on Vergil.

Easier than you think it is unless you force them to play V

DMC5 was already disappointingly easy on your first DH playthrough with mission 19 being the sole difficulty spike in the game, and even then it doesn't reach previous games' heights. It also did away with puzzles and that sort of shit almost completely so there's no way people can get stuck either, plus the game has both Human difficulty AND it constantly shits out Gold Orbs that you can use on all difficulties so it's not like people who are even worse scrubs and need further handicaps are left out either. DT was made to heal more to compensate for lack of pause menu healing items, but Gold Orbs took that role as well so you essentially have both. And it has Auto mode like previous games.

By this point the only way to make the thing even more casual-friendly is by making the game completely play itself.

That would mean that almost no game has a dedicated dodge button because you still have to use the thumbstick in most of them

>, feels like a pay2win weapon
What? I've just used Dr Faust in Mission 13 to single handedly get all the orbs I needed for every characters movesets aside from the EX Provacation
Just go into the rooms and mash Gunslinger and you'll be set for Orbs for life

no
retard

>press button and direction you want to dodge
>HURR IT'S NOT A DEDICATED DODGE BUTTON
Nice one, moron

That's right. If the button is dedicated solely to dodging, it is a dedicated dodge button. If it isn't, it isn't.

>If the button is dedicated solely to dodging
And it is

He might be talking about how you spend red orbs and not so much using it in reference to microtransactions. Which it's true faust 4 is pretty imba.

What are you talking about, the jump button? No.

Metroidvania level design, with focus on exploration, with secrete bosses and hidden weapons.
Keep the combat and controls the way it is because it's perfect

>jump button
>not a dedicated dodge button
Explain your retardation

semantics. so as long as the button's only purpose is to dodge, it is a dedicated dodge button.

It's a jump button.

Which isn't the case in DMC.

Jumping is a form of dodging, especially when it has i-frames

You don't you fucking faggot.

if you can't tell the difference between the roll and the jump you're blind
it's not a dedicated anything button

Dodge
1.
avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

Therefore, a dodge button is a button that follows that definition. DMC therefore has 3 dodging maneuvers, two of them are incorporated in a single button press. Which is to say, the jump button and the Trickster dash.

...

>roll = dodge
Based retard

the jump isn't since it has more than one purpose than dodging. trickster dash is dedicated though

>Probably just make some timing windows bigger, and make it so stingers don't knock enemies back by default (this has never not been annoying, sue me).
You can finish stringers with million stabs to keep the enemies pinned.

make enemies actually cghallenging and actual combos useful in the combat against them, not the punching bag shit what is allways has been.

Just jump it has iframes.

>jump = dodge
Based on the literal definition of dodging, which I posted just now. Unless you're implying that you have a subjective definition on what dodging means in order to mask the obvious contradictions on everything you wrote. But you wouldn't do that, would you?

what about nero then?

Use Bringer Knuckle, or Payline, or Hard Way

>Metroidvania level design with a focus on exploration
Metroidvania level design implies exploration. And that's a terrible idea for an intense action game like DMC. Metroidvanias thrive on big explorable areas with environmental obstacles and hazards, which is a very different design style than DMC games.

Trickster dash isn't a dedicated button either, it's a multifunction button. You could say that one character of three has a dedicated dodge button in one of four styles. That doesn't really address the issue shitters have with there not being a dedicated dodge button.

readhe actually understands words

Are you now implying that Dark Souls doesn!t have a dedicated dodge button?

>it's a multifunction button
such as? if it involves avoiding damage then it's dedicated.

>Yea Forums now wants to simplify DMC to GoW/Bayonetta level
This place is dead. Fuck off, there is already an auto mod for you retards who can't press buttons properly.

I got a little sick just reading this.

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Depends, what else can it be used for, other than dodging?

I mean that it is used for all style actions, not just Trickster dodging. It's going to be just as used, if not more used, for swordmaster attacks by new players.

wtf he can wall run? I thought only ninja gaiden and prince of persia did that

Running, jumping, mashing circle after being knocked down makes you recover faster
If you're going to go
>nuh uh its multipurpose!!!
Then you are a retard arguing semantics

I meant while trickster is on.

The jump button is a button that causes a sudden quick vertical movement. When the player character is about to be attacked by an enemy, pressing the jump button will invariably dodge the attack regardless of the player's intentions and any factors.

That is to say, when posed against an enemy attack, jumping will dedicatedly, invariably, certainly dodge the attack under the literal definition of "dodging". It therefore fulfills the necessary requirements to be called a "dedicated dodge button". Your view that the upwards sudden movement called jumping doesn't constitute the literal definition of "avoiding something" when posed against an enemy attack has no bearing on the argument.

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I tend to stick to Swordmaster and use nothing but Balrog. It's just so cool.

>arguing semantics
Remind me who busted into this thread, copy-pasting dictionary entries?
Who argued jumping and rolling are the same thing, because you can use them to the same end?
>mashing circle after being knocked down makes you recover faster
huh, neat
>hold inputs
not about to get hung up on that, but feel free to, you could if you'd a mind to

Yes but they're trying to argue that a dedicated dodge button should only dodge and dodge only. Because apparently limiting options is 'good game design' when it comes to controls.

You can also just use snatch to get them back.

>dedicated dodge button.
Jump?

That is what dedicated means here, yes.

>Metroidvania level design implies exploration. And that's a terrible idea for an intense action game like DMC. Metroidvanias thrive on big explorable areas with environmental obstacles and hazards, which is a very different design style than DMC games.
I was think something more like Souls, but with the combat of DMC. In the end the focus is still at the intense action, but with some more downtime to walk around a well crafted world.

>Remind me who busted into this thread, copy-pasting dictionary entries?
Not me, retard
>Who argued jumping and rolling are the same thing, because you can use them to the same end?
Literally no one

>Not me, retard
Yeah that is exactly right. Not me, retard.

I swear, so many people call the ending and Nero getting his DT bad writing and nonsensical even though it makes perfect sense if you played all the previous games, which they obviously didn't

Yeah, sure, but again that doesn't really address the issue normies are bitching about, which is the point of this thread.
Sure, if you want to ignore the entire point of this thread.
DMC does not need a dodge button like Dark Souls, but the point that started this conversation is that it is what people who haven't played DMC seem to want. That's all.

A dodge means a quick movement with the intention to avoid something. A button can only provide you with a quick movement, "avoiding something" is entirely reliable on context.

Therefore, a jump button, that is to say: a button dedicated towards a quick movement IS a dedicated dodge button when provided with the contextual necessity for "dodging" to occur: an enemy attack.

Yup. He can only do it in 3 and 2. They still didn't bring it back for V... but you can instead run up and down enemies using trickster.

It's not the same but.. eh.

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GEE DmC, 2 DODGE BUTTONS?

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How is jump/dodge not a dodge button when ever mechanic it introduces can be used to dodge? It has additional uses but those uses manifest in the exact same way as when it's dodging and, in fact, compared to bayonetta it allows vertical and horizontal dodges.

I agree with you.

>It has additional uses
There's your answer.

It has disparate outputs and disparate uses. It's not a dedicated anything button.

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Oh, my bad.

Where is the one with Angel FUCK YOU and Devil FUCK YOU

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>the dodge button in [literally any game] is not a dedicated dodge button because if you use it without enemies nearby it doesn't dodge anything
That's how stupid you sound right now

kek

Oh boy, an excuse to post old pasta.
>This whole thread
Holy shit. All of you need to read this shit I'm laying down.
If an attack is largely vertical or simply in a straight line, then rolling laterally moves you out of the way of the attack. If the attack is more horizontal, like a wide sweep of a blade, then moving sideways only puts you in harm's way, so jump instead.
>What if I want to dodge away from the enemy
Don't. Dodge their attacks, then get in and deliver some damage. This is not a difficult concept. Why the fuck would you think the correct approach would be non-violence in a game that is all about action and combat?
>Why can't the dodge roll just be one button?
Because then you'd have two separate buttons for jumping and dodging.
Besides which, your deformed fetus fingers would still fuck it up by either rolling away from the enemy (and still getting hit) or rolling towards the enemy (the Dark Souls approach) and getting fucking slaughtered.
>This shit below this line is extra important. Study it.
The jump is not a jump, it's a fucking vertical dodge. Dodge and Jump are on the same button because they serve the same goddamn, motherfucking purpose and having to use two buttons to do two mildly different versions of the same action would be the single fucking dumbest game design decision ever, bar none.
>But Bayonetta
Bayonetta fucking jumps during the dodge roll you blind fucking retard. It incorporates both actions. The actual jump in Bayonetta is strictly for platforming and air combos. It is not better or worse, it is different.
>But Dark Souls
Dark Souls is a fucking RPG with clunky, broken hit detection and no real vertical movement.
>But Trickster Style
Is used as much for offense as defense and is more for rushdown aggression. Teleporting=/=dodging.
There. Debate settled. Any one of you insipid polyps of tumour flesh complains about the dodge roll again and I'll just paste this same exact wall of text.
Get good or give up, you fucking casual.

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making the game 2x longer and giving it more harder difficulties.

If you can't disprove this post, you have literally no ground to stand on.
To you, a button dedicated to a quick horizontal movement is a dedicated dodge button, but a button isn't a dedicated dodge button when the movement is vertical?

Dodging requires something to avoid because it's a contextual action. Forget Devil May Cry, in your logic not a single "dedicated dodge button" exists in all games across all platforms.

>
not really, no

But every single move it does is a dodge. Those dodges can be used for other things, this does not change the fact every single press of that button is a dodge.

>can be used for other things
exactly

Again, it's a dodge button/dedicated dodge button because every time you use it it's a dodge. There's no way you can press the x button and not dodge.

That user is retarded. A button can't provide the context under which a "dodge" occurs, which would be an enemy attack. A button can only provide the player with a movement which, in a combat scenario, can avoid an attack by it's very nature of quick dislocation.

In his eyes, the moment you command the player character to perform that movement outside a combat scenario, that is proof it's not a dedicated dodge button. After all, you just pressed a button and the character didn't dodge anything!

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Did you know if you dodge up onto the horse statue you get a bunch of hidden red orbs?

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stinger>cancel into million stabs>cancel that into whatever

Did you know this is a callback to the first game? I still remember the time I figured out I could dodge to the top of the knight-statue's lance for a quick 100 orbs.

Whoa... are you saying that... it can't be, no... you can use the dodge button for mobility?!?! This is revolutionary and has never been done before!!! Bravo, Capcom!

That's cool, but I wish they'd stop doing so many callbacks. If they put in something like the room in 3 where you have to dodge up on the revolving cubes I'd just kill myself. Shit was left behind for a reason.

>Enemy attacks you
>You dodge the attack with the quick vertical dislocation button, which is dedicated entirely to perform that maneuver
>Land on the horse statue

Even if there was a single button that causes you to roll sideways, that movement only becomes a dodge once you USE it to AVOID an ENEMY ATTACK. Outside of that context, it's not a dodge button and you're not dodging when you press it when there are no enemies nearby. After all, you're just rolling.

holy shit do i fucking suck at style switching, ive been trying to get better since 4 but the amount of options paralyzes me and i forget what style im at 90% of the time, i miss when i was good at dante back in 3SE :(

...

I think you forgot to make a point there, dude. Your post is empty.

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turn on backlinks

Write an argument.

Why would he bother responding to you with an argument when you don't have one yourself

Or that fucking bridge segment next to the church in the first game, where you have to dodge your way across the floating platforms.
And if you screw up, you have to fight a bunch of Sargasso, who are so weak you don't even have to dodge them.

I wish I needed one, that's just what dedicated means. You use X a bunch outside of dodging, it's not a dedicated dodge button. You're just bashing your head against a dictionary, willing it to change. Protip, buddy, it won't.

>>the dodge button in [literally any game] is not a dedicated dodge button because if you use it without enemies nearby it doesn't dodge anything
>No, I don't actually think that
I don't doubt "he" doesn't think that, but his reasoning invariably leads towards that statement. So you're not making an argument by saying "I don't actually believe that", but you're only proving your argument is contradictory within itself and false by your own standards.

Sorry, I meant "his" standards.

Jesus, don't remind me. That was one of the first games I played with a controller. I must've failed that dodging segment one or two dozen times just the first time I was going through there. I just kept missing my dodge on the platforms. Honestly, dodging puzzles never meshed well with having a fixed camera.

Holy shit dude, you're actually being completely incoherent. This is you, even if you said you don't condone what's written here.
>the dodge button in [literally any game] is not a dedicated dodge button because if you use it without enemies nearby it doesn't dodge anything

A "dedicated dodge button" doesn't exist in any context. Because dodging is an action that requires a scenario that a button press won't fulfill. There is only a button which allows dodging once it's context is realized.

>dashing sideways to dodge an enemy is dodging by dashing
>Dashing sideways outside of a combat scenario, for the sake of increased speed, is a dash, but not a dodge
>Therefore, it's not a dedicated dodge button

It's already extremely modern
The first game in the series came out on the PS2

>the enemies just respawn when you rest at the [telephone], it's just like dark souls!
No. The fact that missions are treated like ranked heats is part of the point

DMC5 is already like that though, shit V's gameplay is braindead normie casual trash. All you do is stand in one spot and go LB LT+Y LT+X RT walk around a bit then RB+B B Chain whenever your minions turn an enemy white. You are quite literally never in danger and you can do up SSS easily without putting real effort into it.

Just don't even bother arguing with them at this point. The only way for a "dedicated dodge button" to exist for them is if for example clicking the left analog stick was a dodge, but only as a qte response. I only pick clicking the left analog stick because if you were to pick a face button they have the possibility of doing something in a menu or serving literally any other purpose thus making it not a "dedicated dodge button". The rigidity is obtuse

>only one person in this thread thinks you're an idiot
Nice cope

>zero people in this thread can prove I'm an idiot

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More like you're covering your ears and screaming "lalala doesn't count doesn't count"

No. see

>Permanently glue camera to over the shoulder and make the character control more like a shitty gears clone third person shooter
>Make the majority of fights you standing in the middle of a half dozen or so enemies that attack from all sides with the only off-screen attack indicator a subdued hud element
>Also enemies all have Oblivion tier level scaling so you're punished for being stronger
There's being more difficult of a game to beat due to the challenge factor and then there's being more difficult of a game to actually fucking play due to bad design.

Can you provide context to the things you're saying?

>if you can't tell the difference between the roll and the jump
Tell me the difference between a quick vertical movement from a quick horizontal movement beyond their trajectory.

>let's trade 4 buttons for 2 buttons
That's a horrible idea and you should feel retarded for not realizing this

Jump is a vertical dodge roll.
Dodge roll is a horizontal jump.

>the jump in DMC games doesn't count as a dodge button because I say so
That's all you're saying and you can't even rsspond to proper arguments

5 hours later and still noone has proven me otherwise.

>I didn't like the loading screens form DMCV
Nigga what, if anything they fly by way too fucking fast. I got it installed in a standard WD Blue platter and I rarely get the chance to actually read the mission descriptions that pop up. Are you guys playing on console, because base PS4 uses shitty ass SATA II and all of them also use 5400 rpm drives.

>summon character
>grappling hook character
They literally did that you stupid FUCK.

...user, all my posts ITT are denouncing the people who say "the jump button isn't a dedicated dodge button". How retarded are you to attack a person who has the exact same view as yours?

>How retarded are you to attack a person who has the exact same view as yours?
This is Yea Forums, that shit happens all the fucking time.

you were talking about Human which is easy mode, fucktard

They don't like taking their thumb off the left stick not knowing you can just rebind the controls

DMD is easier than GMGoW

>because base PS4 uses shitty ass SATA II and all of them also use 5400 rpm drives.
>playing against vergil on a PS4
>console sounds like it's going to explode
>outside of the death cutscenes loading times take forever
>have to go to customise menu first too
I need a decent PC
>Unlockable moves locked behind exp instead of red orbs
After playing 3 and leveling styles, I never want to see that shit in a DMC game, period

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That's because, and he admits this himself, he just spams the fuck out of style cancelling to trick like 3 frames faster and it looks fancy for plebs like you.

Well then the burden of proof is on you user

Ex fucking cuse me, you're the guy that wrote the second post referenced here , right? I just spent the last 20 minutes wondering what nonsense you were spouting, don't tell me I was the retard all along

S-sorry user, but

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>beyond their trajectory.
It looks like I won't have to tell you where they differ. That's great, you've eyes. Now grow a brain.

Slowing down time to select Devil Arms and Devil Breakers with a weapon wheel so the player can make informed gameplay decisions in the heat of combat.

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dumb

Sh-shut the fuck up

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eugh

as a bird to air or a fish to bio, so is dumb to the dumbass

DMC games are about combat and getting good scores, not exploration.
Interconnected level design would make previously mentioned aspects weaker and the game would have less focus and if people say it's okay to focus on more than combat, then devs will change things and the game series would eventually become your generic AAA game that tries to please everyone (And which it probably will), but nobody will love it.

You're saying you can only dodge sideways?

Did you click the wrong post there?

you wouldn’t
fuck you

>There is no difference between dodging with a jump and a roll besides their trajectory
>Yes, the difference is in their trajectory
But what about their trajectory causes a side roll to constitute a dodge while an upwards jump not?

Meant to reply to

Who in the world are you quoting?
>an upwards jump not?
Again, where the hell are you getting this from? Never said you can't dodge with the jump. It's just not its only use. And the roll and jump are two very distinct actions.

The only use of the jump button is to jump. Whether you jump to dodge an attack or to reach a higher ledge has no consequence to that definition. The same way that what you consider a "dedicated dodge button" such as the Zelda roll, is used outside of combat to advance forward in a higher velocity. That is because the only use of the roll button is to roll, yet you can also dodge with it by rolling while in combat.

You definition of a "dedicated dodge button" doesn't exist.

>open explorable city
How is this not a good thing? DMC1/3 have more exploration than 5

>The only use of the jump button is to jump
And roll. Which makes two different actions, and a button not dedicated to either.

>How is this not a good thing?
>DMC1/3 have more exploration than 5
You just answered your own question. "Exploration" parts of 3 are fucking ass.

I'm not talking about Devil May Cry in particular anymore.

Then that would mean the Trickster dash is not a dedicated dodge button, either. After all, if you've selected a different style, that button wil perform an entirely different action altogether.

The same way the jump button will perform a roll once pressed under the condition that the lock-on button is also pressed while also aiming at a horizontal direction with the analog stick.

Human + Auto for beginners, it's there!

Well if your ass feels sore, then by all means, lets change the fucking subject. Not that it will help any. If your "zelda roll" is the one, and only, function of that button i.e. that button is dedicated to that one action, congratulations! You've got yourself a dedicated zelda roll button, or whatever the fuck you want to call the action that button is dedicated to.

Now, if we want to get back to the topic at hand: DMC, it isn't. The button is used for several distinct actions and is thus dedicated to jack shit.

styles' are modes
> jump button
hold the fuck up, buddy, are you talking about what we in the business refer to as "the quick vertical dislocation button, which is dedicated entirely to perform that maneuver"?

The only things I can think so more casual people can enjoy is adding a "slow mode", so it speeds down overall character movements to give more reaction time, and bring back those little blinks and sounds from DmC that shows when you can start pressing for combo B or C

honestly V is way easier to fly around in the air with Dante, and timings are easier with Nero. The whole game felt easier to pull off combos, but harder to mix, and match since animations need to finish before you can switch fully. I've noticed that sw is a lil slower too, but it's not that big of a deal since you can still pull it all off.
>tfw still use rebellion no matter what
I just want a DMC3 dante skin mod now.

My whole point was that there doesn't exist a "dedicated dodge button" under your definition of "dedicated" because dodging is a contextual action and the button can only be dedicated to a certain action to provide a certain movement in order to allow you to dodge in a combat scenario. I showed you how not even the Zelda roll doesn't count under your definition of "dedicated dodge button" even though any sane person would naturally call it "THE DODGE BUTTON".

I feel like I'm beating a corpse that doesn't acknowledge it's already long dead.

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There are 3 dedicated dodges
>side roll
>royal guard basic
>trickster basic
>all dedicated to a single button for the styles, and lock on, plus side tap, and jump for the roll
that's 3 options you have right there for a basic guard guaranteed to get you out of an attack. you're retarded, or you haven't played the game.

>what is nero's table hopper upgrade
you fucking pleb you can i-frame attacks with it too.

user I'm saying the semantics applied to muh dudge button are incoherent.

Your "point" is irrelevant. The button is used for several actions and is dedicated to neither of them. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a dodge, a roll, or fucking Stephen. It's not a dedicated Stephen button, because he's cohabiting with Mike.

Nobody gives a shit about your autistics semantic spergous about what qualifies as a dodge, and nobody's made the argument you're attempting to refute. Button's not dedicated to anything because it does a bunch of different shit.

Yeah, and quite clearly I'm making fun of you farthuffing bastards. Do you seriously think I'd ever say that sincerely?

>Nobody gives a shit about your autistics semantic spergous about what qualifies as a dodge
>Now would you please give a shit about my subjective definition of what a dodge means?
I brought semantics into this to accomodate your extremely retarded views based on your SUBJECTIVE DEFINITION of what a dodge is Despite its literal definition.

What's the point you're trying to make?

Just make jump cancelling with Nero easier, and keep Dante intact.

No, you did it because you couldn't, and still refuse to address I never made an argument relying the definition of "dodging", and as I've said about half a dozen times, it doesn't matter what you call it.
You've one button that does several things. It's not dedicated to either. You brought in semantics, immediately following that post, because you can't and won't address that and started trying to equivocate between horizontal and vertical movement.

You're the one arguing that two different actions with wildly different animations are the same just because you could feasibly use them to the same end in some situations.

Yeah, I struggle to read the flavour-text and tips fast enough most of the time.

>All the anons saying DMC5 is easiest in the franchise
DMC4 was easier.

>I never made an argument relying the definition of "dodging"
Your argument pertains to the existence of a dedicated dodge button, and you're implying DMC doesn't have one. I'm explicitly saying your definition of such a thing is surreal. A dedicated dodge button doesn't exist.

>You're the one arguing that two different actions with wildly different animations are the same just because you could feasibly use them to the same end in some situations.

Not some situations, ALL of them. Both a roll and a jump are dodging maneuvers when performed under the necessary context for a dodge to occur. Which is, by its literal definition, something that is avoided through a quick action.

NOTHING fits your criteria for a "dedicated" dodge button because your entire logic for that definition is completely flawed and cannot exist in any single game ever. Tell me a game that contains a dedicated dodge button under your definition of it, and I will disprove to you that it's not such a button using only your own logic to what is a dedicated dodging button and nothing else.

No enemy in dmc5 comes close to blitz

>not saying power controls everything. and without power you cannot F--

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Blitz isn't even hard.

What's so hard about Blitz? All you do is shoot him until his energy goes off and then you pummel him.
His attacks are all easy to dodge
His laser is fucking easy to dodge
If you're smart he won't ever get into red stage.

Dawg, i'm groggy so i can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but all those things you mentioned are already features. Swordmaster is not needed for air combos; every weapons Y attack is an air combo now. The only swordmaster moves that are not drops are cavalier and Balrog in kick mode. Charge shots haven't been exclusive to gunslinger since dmc4. They just charge automatically for ease of use now.

desu would be a nice feature to have in practice mode

Then just say done badly moron.

>Your argument pertains to the existence of
jack shit.

All I've done is state the dictionary definition of a dedicated button, doing one thing and one thing only. It doesn't matter if we're talking about a dodge, about a jump, or about a reload button. You brought up semantics because your argument hinges on it. Because you are the one too fucking stupid to think up a better retort than
>ackshually, the roll and the jump are the same thing, because you can use either of them to dodge

>Not some situations, ALL of them
Only one is... A jump. It launches you. The other doesn't. It's also absolutely fucking necessary for the many platforming bits, or "dodge puzzles" as your dumb ass would call them.
>NOTHING fits your criteria for a "dedicated"
Do one thing and only one thing, it's that simple.

Which is not what depth means.

The skill floor matter more in games like this