Rpg lets you allocate stats into a tons of different skills at the start

Why aren't you using the skill you've invested in? "I made a beefcake punchy dude but this game starts me off with a gun and there's plenty of ammo. Now I spend all my time missing my shots with a gun I don't know how to use and I'm never punching anything."

take gifted, take the "extra" points away from all your stats and then dump them into int and per
tag small guns, speech, and science (you'll want energy weapons too but you can dump points into that later)
stop crying and enjoy the fucking game. thank me later

>like Skyrim
there is no positive argument you can make for anything that ends like this.

lets assume you put a bunch of points into repair, and then as you play the game you realize that nothing ever breaks. you would have wasted points into a skill you had no idea was pointless.

Oblivion came close with the "edit your character again before you leave the tutorial" deal but I think there'd be mileage in an RPG contriving some reason to let you re-roll after the first hour or so

>main story mission contrives a reason for you to get knocked unconscious
>wake up in bed at the inn or whatever and get booted back to the character builder, able to allocate your base points plus however many levels you've earned since then

>every skill and trait has a description
>by reading that description, and (naturally) picking them when creating a character, you know exactly what is your character capable of
>''b-b-but reading is hard and that system is shit, I want the game to automatically raise my stats for me''
This is why Fallout was - and still is - better than most of RPGs. Because games are made for people like you. And this comes from a guy who prefers JRPGs over WRPGs.

t. nerd
Nobody wants nonsensical spreadsheets with tons of effects, morrowind being the worst offender
A simple powerup where you just become better at everything is all you need

The GoG versions of Fallout 1 and 2 still come with the original manuals

You're not meant to metagame before even starting your first playthrough. The right build will trivialize many rpgs and if you actually need a meta build to complete something like fallout you're an idiot. Read the description and make an educated guess. Its how the game is meant to be played and its how the game is most fun.

>main quest involves finding a vault water chip
>Bakersfield residents are using a repurposed water chip because their regular pump malfunctioned
>Dweller knows how to repair things
>Repairs pump, people let him have the chip
>Main quest complete
There are plenty of instances where you can use the repair skill, and you can't just be totally unskilled in that and hope the few points you automatically have are enough.

There's literally pre-made characters to choose in at least Fallout 1 (can't remember F2).

i'¨m not talking about fallout you stupid fuck. i'm talking about games which let you pick skills at the start. there is no way to know that what you just said is going to be a thing when you're first starting out. which is why i said assume in my op.

repair is actually a decent skill though
a better argument would be putting points into outdoorsman, which in F1 does literally nothing except determine the damage you take in map environment hazard encounters like dehydration and rock slides

maybe you could
play the game and find out?
lol
stop acting like your time is so fucking valuable when you're just wasting it playing video games anyways
fucking retard

>Every option should be equally good
>Everyone has equal rights in the wasteland
>No one left behind

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Then play with a walkthrough, which will guide you step by step and make sure you don't make mistakes. And when you're done go back here and complain how the game is piss easy.

Then your hypothetical game that doesn't make good use of the repair skill is bad, but why are you talking about a hypothetical game when the thread uses an image of fallout?

Morrowind's spell effects system is bad but only because the spell creation system is so hideously limited. If it was actually possible to implement plenty of fancy effects into one spell or one echanted item it would be useful. You could make anything you want. But basically you run out of arbitrary magic implementation points somewhere between useless and not even as useful as default spells you can buy for 10 gold. Not to mention that magicka is severely limited and you can only increase it by an amount that matters using overpowered crafted potions.

MASH was a masterpiece

dont you see how the design is flawed if you have to try it out before picking, while at the same time the game forces you to pick before trying it out?

>no way to know what skills are good or bad
Well, in a well desgined game all choices should be viable
Though there's still no excuse for being a retard and choosing stuff that opposes itself. Action games' difficulty is in the action, puzzle games' in the puzzles, and in RPG games like this it might come in character building. If you can't handle it, then you're shit at games, go play mario.

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>but why are you talking about a hypothetical game when the thread uses an image of fallout?
because fallout uses such a system. what picture would have been better?

A good game makes use of every skill so you shouldn't have to worry about it. If you're playing a game where that isn't true, it's a bad game stop playing.

This is bullshit. The first hour of Deus Ex has a load of water, so you'd be easily misled in to thinking that swimming was a useful skill. Obviously this would be completely wrong, but your "see what works" would, at that starting point would have a lot of preference for that useless skill.

A game where this is actually a problem and not one where this isn't an issue because every skill is viable

>Well, in a well desgined game all choices should be viable
seeing how shit rpg's generally are. you cant assume that the developers were able to balance a shit ton of different skills like that

A picture from a game where the example actually applies. A game that has a repair skill but nothing to repair in the game.

>be a retard
>drool
whoooaa

My first playthrough i did 1 luck and got fucked hard during the master fight because he would just crit me.

What if the game has few or limited mechanics for that? How retarded are you?

The keywords you quoted are "well designed"

OP has a point though. RPGs rely on your ignorance of the mechanics to be “fun”. There’s nothing to stop you accidentally picking a build that trivialises the game, or equally a build that makes the game a painful slog to get through.
It’s obvious what sneak and lockpick mean, but you have no idea if they will just get you slightly better loot or let you avoid most combat entirely. It’s impossible to know what kind of game you’re setting up for yourself. RPGs are objectively inferior to well-crafted action/adventure games because of this crucial flaw.

The first ten seconds of Deus Ex has an underwater secret area that you can't properly reach before drowning unless you've put points into swimming.

Imagine those people that picked shit like Repair, Science or Outdoorsman?

Or the cost of repair is less than the skill point's cost. Like in Morrowind, you're never far enough from a smithy that you need to repair yourself, and nothing wears out fast enough that you can't quickly repair it between quests.

No

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Exactly my point. Though you can do it if you keep going up and down and get one part at a time, which would just make you say "wow, swimming would be really useful."

>he didn't get to the Illuminati's secret Atlantis base for the true ending

Do you think this entire thread is about the repair skill?

That's a bad example because in Morrowing you constantly find repair equipment and casually spam-use it on your equipment and you get all of your repair skill points for free from that. Nobody levels repair in Morrowind by buying training.

>some games make luck fucking useless
>some games smear you across the wall without enough luck points
LMAO you're just bad at games for not being clairvoyant about developer's design choices

The sad part is zoomers like you actually believe this, and feel like this is a legitimate view.
The truth is your generation is fucked because it's all just min/max perceptions and online oversaturation of data. You don't even concieve that once we all played rpg's by our own knowledge and character creations, and roleplay our way through "Roleplaying Games".
The best games were the ones that actually had a good design around letting your character solve things in a myriad of fashions or utilize different skills; and being OP or underpowered didn't really matter, you tried to beat the ordeals in the game and do what you could, and maybe you did. Maybe it was hard, or not. Didn't really matter, it was cool that you had a character and complex skills and got to create a character and play as them in a fictional setting.

Now you little faggots need metadata and datamining of every facet of a game to get past the title menu and any semblance of imbalance or "unfair game mechanics" turns you off so badly because you're not about the game, you're about the social collateral and stigma associated with being good or bad, or balanced or imbalanced.

GW1 wasn't good because it was balanced.
It was perfect because it wasn't.

Do you think you can provide literally any concrete examples of any useless skill?

im 27

>playing an optimised/meta build on the first playthrough
mediocre

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No one is saying that, a well designed game shouldn't be so jarring.

>have all these cyber nano powers
>NOPE, BETTER LEARN SWIMMING FIRST

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Outdoorsman in F1 is close to useless.

>Well, in a well desgined game all choices should be viable

Then the only well designed RPGs are JPRGs that constrain your choices to the small subset of viable choices. Didn't think that one through, did ya' shit-for-brains.

There is no hope for you.

holy based

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But that's exactly what he wants to do but not have to restart the game if a skill has no gameplay value.

Repair, Traps, Science. Hell, most of the non-combat skills are pretty damn useless when you think about it. Sure you can Gamble and get tons of caps but if you play the game normally the caps come flowing to you anyways. Barter is just, why? Speech is 100% required. First Aid? Stimpaks. Doctor? Useful but I didn't break many limbs during my several runs through the game

>but not have to restart the game
he could just save, apply the skill, try it and reload if he doesn't like it.

>Invest points into X
>Can't "role play" shit because the skill has zero usefulness and relevance to anything, and you couldn't even get to parts of the game that may make use of them since you're getting killed by stuff that required you pick the ivory tower advance-knowledge skills that let you get through there

Don't spend all your points ? It's a simple concept. Allocate the ones that are necessary as best as you can and leave the ones that can be left out for later.
Delayed gratification. Look it up.

If you didn't pick Lockpicking, some type of combat skill, and whatever third skill sounds cool to you then you're probably an idiot. And that's why they have pre-made characters for you to use because they anticipated some dumbass would get butthurt about their inability to make a decent character.

>>Can't "role play" shit because the skill has zero usefulness and relevance to anything
the fault is on you for not roleplaying better.

Ah yes, Fallout 1, the game that allowed you to allocate SPECIAL points whenever you wanted.

This is why we can't have nice things

>have a secret location full of useful items that requires swimming to easily get
>"haha, it's your fault for thinking swimming will be useful for anything besides this one vertical slice area."

You’re supposed to have read the manual, you illiterate retard

>>have a secret location full of useful items that requires swimming to easily get
because someone on a first playthrough will know that.

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>Allocate the ones that are necessary as best as you can
>leave the ones that can be left out for later
Do you understand reading comprehension you retard? You can pick a retarded special build but power through with your skills anyway.

Based and immersionpilled.
Why are zoomers so obsessed with everything being optimal? Fuck, playing a suboptimal character and having to get creative to deal with things you can't handle in direct combat is where some of these games really start to shine.

It's just sitting in the water, and the crate on the pier viewable from the first second implies to the player that items will be hidden underwater. The next accessible water area is near the homeless guy that Paul tells you to go to see, and the sunken ship is right next to it.

It's a bullshit trick, no different than the Infocom games that kill you because you didn't take the rubber chicken 5 hours ago.

Total bullshit. No one played Baldur's Gate with the original stat rolls, and the developers knew this because they gave you the ability to store previous rolls so you can get the best points.

>My degree in Women's Studies took as long to get and cost just as much as someone else's Engineering degree so it should be equally valuable.

>why do people enjoy trying to make their character as powerful as possible in an rpg

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It really is better going into these games with nothing but the knowledge you get from the manual. When I first played Fallout 2 I had no idea how much getting addicted to Jet would alter how I played and it was the best experience I've ever had playing as a drug addicted character.

>in order to have enjoyment in this game i must an optimised tier fag

It's almost like this game had presetup characters that were designed to give new players something to jump into.

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>in order to have enjoyment in this game i must an deviant art OC autist

You are supposed to have a few skills you are good at, and all of the main weapon groups are viable.

>playing what i want makes me a deviant

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>and all of the main weapon groups are viable.
how am i supposed to know this?

>implying dump stats aren't a flaw in game balance
>ibidem
lmao kill urselves my dudes

>playing what i want makes me a optimised tier fag

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>HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT STABBING SOMEONE OR SMASHING THEIR HEAD IN WITH A PIPE WOULD BOTH BE VIABLE OPTIONS!!!!!

>>have a secret location full of useful items that requires swimming to easily get
>>"haha, it's your fault for thinking swimming will be useful for anything besides this one vertical slice area."
Huh? How is that misrepresentative of the game? Did you forget that Deus Ex has an entire underwater lab level? There's plenty of swimming sections throughout the game.

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yeah, how was i supposed to know that melee weapons were balanced?

I'm a boomer and I'm obsessed with things being optimal. This doesn't just apply to video games but to everything in life too.
Some people call it autism.

>i'm not a tier whore! I just main [top tier char] and occasionally [other top tier char]. i'm totally unique!

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>Game literally tells you how it calculates shit
>No idea
Brainlet

Was it the 2nd fallout that had the bullshit temple where if you didnt spec into a combat character it was insanely tough. I vaguely remember trying to do a sly charisma centered huckster character who got fucked by ants.

>pick up a knife
>balance it on your finger
>WOW DIDN'T KNOW THIS WAS POSSIBLE

>i'm not a deviant! I just like recreating and roleplaying as my sonic oc's while furiously masturbating to various sonic dick mods

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You know, you can run away. Right?
I did play plenty of F2 as thief with no battle skills.

why dont you read the fucking skills to get a basic idea of what they do, you stupid faggot.

Fallout 2 has a bad opening, but its still very doable with a bad build. There's healing items all over the place and lots of the bugs can be skipped. The unskippable fight at the end is very easy.

timedwatcher.blogspot.no/2018/12/fallout-1-sex-text-because-sexout-was.html

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>Game holds your hand like OP requested
>2nd playthrough is boring because there is barely any difference in builds

He has arrived

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so if you guys are playing mario for example. do you not pick up that fire flower because it would make you a try-hard meta faggot?

1 intelligence 8 perception post right there op

>Game holds your hand like OP requested
>1st playthrough is boring because there's no joy in discovering things yourself

Except for a character with bad luck. You want to avoid random encounters as much as possible if every time you fight you risk losing your weapon or dropping your ammo.

I hear your point but I disagree. Roleplay games are about making your own character and roleplaying. Not making the most powerful min maxed EZ mode character.

But if you are more into that kind of thing play JRPGs.

This. I believe that in F1 and F2 you had no problem with it. Most of the things you could make a good use of even if there were a couple of perks that clearly outclashed most of the rest (but you could deduce it just by reading what they did).
But I get where he's coming from. Imaging choosing a weapon focus for your cRPG character and realize that there's just one or two mediocre magic weapons of that kind in the entire game. That happens a lot.

This is like building a tool before knowing what the tool is supposed to be doing. You could make a hammer, only to discover that you're gonna have to do a bunch of sawing, then be forced to tediously chip away slowly with your shitty tool. resulting in a very bad experience.

for a system like this to work. the players should go through some sort of tutorial area that's made to be like an abbreviated version of the entire game. where every aspect of the game is included based on how much place they take up. before deciding how they want to shape their character.

only then can the player make an educated choice on how he wants to go through the game. because as cool as a hammer might sound. you have no way of knowing if that hammer is actually fun in practice.

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>Not making the most powerful min maxed EZ mode character.
but its not about creating the best character. how are you supposed to know that whatever you pick will result in a fun playthrough? that unarmed mechanic build might be super powerful, but its play style is absolutely horrible and not to your liking

Is an energy weapons build viable in Fallout 1 and 2? How long does it take to get any good rayguns? How about explosives?
When I picked up FO4 for cheap I tried playing as someone who mainly used grenades, but not being able to use grenades in VATS combined with how scarce materials for grenades were led me to give up.

Oblivion: Every time you level you get relatively weaker because of scaling unless you minmax your stats.

Or every MMO with a cash shop stat redistribution item.

Just like feminist studies then?

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Energy weapons are some of the best in the game but you don't get them usually until later on. So best thing is to tag both small guns and energy weapons and then only put points into small guns early and then put loads of points into energy guns when you start to use them. This advise is more for fallout 2 though because fallout 1 is so short it doesn't matter as much.

thats why I despise games that do this. friends always told me how awesome Fallout is and one of them lended me hia disc. right into the game you start with a weapon I hadnt put points into. how should I have known anyways? two ants kill me while I miss every hit. uninstall.exe instantly. shit trial and error artificial difficulty game.

yeah I hate this, feels so shitty not knowing if some stat/skill is actually any good. Many games don't even show percentages and shit.

It's not really about the length of the game, it's about the fact that Fallout 1 endgame enemies are huge health mountains that can be destroyed with DPS regardless of what gun you use. Fallout 2 endgame enemies are armor fortresses and they're impossible to kill if you don't have an energy weapon, gauss gun or Bozar with which to shoot them in the eyes. Fallout 1 supports the use of literally every weapon. Fallout 2 does not.

Fallout 2 isn't hard you dumb idiot.
Just rub some brain cells together and think about what kind of skills are necessary to survive in the wasteland.
It tells you what the fucking skills do.
Invest in a combat skill, and the SPECIAL that accommodate that skill.
Hell, just pick what sounds cool, it'll probably fucking work.
Also, why are you playing Fallout 2 if you haven't played Fallout 1? If you played Fallout 1, you would know how to play.
Also, there's a fucking manual if you're so far gone that you can't figure this out on your own.
Also, there's a fucking tutorial that includes things that will test your character, so use that to decide if your character is somehow literally impossible to play, but I guarantee you're fucking fine, because the game isn't hard.
Wait, why did I reply, this is a bait thread.

i'm not talking about fallout 2 specifically just the whole rpg system where you design a character without even knowing what the game makes you do

Do zoomers really quit a game and drop it the first time they die?

>playing Deus Ex for the first time
>put all my points into Swimming because that sounds cool
>game is unplayably difficult, but I can swim fast so that's cool
>dude just roleplay and make the most of it lmao

Apparently they drop the game before they start because they can't be sure that every choice they make is the right one.

>Over-investing in anything makes Deus Ex unplayably difficult
Almost everything you do in that game has nothing to do with your skills. If that game becomes unplayably difficult to you when you make a character with inapliccable skills, the game isn't broken. You're just a shitter and shouldn't be playing on Realistic difficulty.

How is knowing how to patch yourself up not a skill for surviving a world that wants to hurt you in some capacity?

I was playing on the easiest difficulty.

You can also play a preset character

Then it's a shit game and you shouldn't be playing it. Thankfully Fallout isn't one of them.

I believe he was using those tags as a good example of character building user.

Agreed. Everyone on Yea Forums pretends to love old school RPG design but won't admit how many times they restarted Morrowind/Fallout/PST before they got a build that wasn't useless. Or they just used a "quick start" guide that told them which skills were essential and which were trash.

based, zoomers on suicide watch

You are thinking off F2. It doesn't do much in the first one.

read the manual zoomer

I know I never pick swimming, but there's loads of water in the game, Hong Kong and the underwater base mainly. It's still useless, but it can still be a convenient skill

if you need to read a book before playing a video game or watch a movie its fucking flawed from the start.

fallout 1 and 2 aged like milk

Your mum read the manual. Shame it was in French.

>what is roleplaying

I've only played Fallout 1, did so last year. I thought it was great, a lot better than the later Fallout games

Doesn't it affect your overworld movement speed? That makes it more important in F1.

Because, you dumb fuck, back when these games came out the developers put a bit of though, a bit of effort into making the weapons. You could, dare I say, take it as a given that the weapons were balanced, because they would have no way of improving it if they weren't.

Fallout 1 really wasn't that hard, even with bad stats.
Part of the fun of a game is discovering whats optimal and whats not

these games still come out.

Easiest way to play it safe in these situations is just invest everything into a simple combat specialization like "guns" or "magic" or whatever. Since practically every RPG revolves around combat to some extent you will rarely go wrong unless the game just has flagrant balance issues or severe bugs. Then you can get a feel for which supplementary skills are useful and which ones aren't, and try out meme builds on future characters. Going for weirdo stealth/pacifist/diplomat builds right off the bat always ends in disaster.

I blame Bethesda for this.

I hate that, having to choose a prefered weapon class/invest points into a weapon skill just to play the game for 5 hours and dont find a single one, bonus made-me-mad points id you find one but its utter shit stats wise and gets outclassed anyway by other weapon classes.

That's what I think this is all about too. People insisting that gimmick builds should be equally accessible when the whole point is to challenge yourself with something intentionally limited.

>skill based system where you are free to do whatever you want :^)
>there is actually only one optimal way to play and it includes playing the game out of order to get important stat boosts early on before leveling up too much
every fucking time

>wanna play a cool summoner
>put points into summoning
>summon ai turns out to broken and frustrating to control making it a total chore and nearly unplayable
JUST ROLEPLAY LOL FUCKING MIN MAX RETARD LOW INTELLIGENCE YOU SUCK IM GOOD ZOOMER

>literally no way to know what skills are good or bad
you're not supposed to know
it's a ROLEPLAYING game you're supposed to create a character in you're mind with some sort of backstory and play that character

>you're not supposed to know
this is dumb stop saying it in this thread. the most effective roleplaying utilizes meta knowledge and min maxing

that has literally happened to me, except in katja's shoes

>wants everything to be ezpz
>doesn't wanna have to learn, wants everything spoonfed
>calls others zoomers
get a load of this guy

>I'm dumbfuck who doesn't understand difference between rpg and adventure, debate me :DDD
sage

you can finish deus ex without investing ANY skillpoints, also it's your fault for not playing GMDX

>gee, how was i supposed to know that putting all of my points into fucking throwing would have been less useful than putting it into laser weaponry?

>not making one-hit deathclaw crit kills with Rocks and Flares
nigger you what

Why don't you try role-playing

>zoomers will never know the feel of reading a game manual for hours and theory-crafting builds in your mind before even starting the game

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Hong Kong has that underwater tunnel full of crashed cars and monsters that you pretty much need either swimming, or a ton of rebreathers/health regen to complete the mission/get the AUG canister in

I agree with this the most. Experimenting is okay as long as the game doesn't insta-fuck you over with something because you didn't pick must-have-this and as long as it doesn't offer useless choices, as some games did in the past, that were merely newbie traps (looking at Diablo 2 where you actually should STORE your skill points for the useful skills that you get later on rather than spending them for something useful once you get them; also vast amount of garbage skills that weren't viable for hell difficulty).

>tfw no Natalia gf

that tunnel it's entirely optional(for aug canister) and you have several 'skills' to get there which is either Swimming (Athlethics in GMDX), Enviromental Training (for Aquabreathers, not sure if this skill affects them in vanilla), Aqualung Aug or Regeneration (only in vanilla where it's OP)
So it's optional and you have four different methods to achieve same thing, how is this bad?