KH should have just been a comfy...

Mostly agree

fair point. I wish there wasn't so many fucking plot scenes dedicated to them, they really dragged the franchise down. Just let them be one and done boss battles to spice things up like No More Heroes or something.

I liked that the Disney villains were the main villains for the majority of KH1. Organization 13 members don't really have any connection to the Disney worlds, so it ends up just being "there's a dude in a black coat fucking around here for no reason in particular".

fuck off speed running tranny

Master Xehanort should have been a one and done character, "hey look guys we got Leonard Nimoy isn't that cool?" and that was that. Bringing Young Xehanort and time travel of all fucking things into the series is absolute cancer because it gives Terranort absolutely no fucking reason to exist except as to be a punching bag in every single cutscene he's in.

Also, the Kingdom Hearts super autismo fans can absolutely go fuck themselves with a rusty steak knife for defending the horseshit of "you have to play five thousand spin-offs to understand the story". When those fucking cunts try to act all smug and dismissive about "uhhhhhh ACKSHULLY none of them are side games lmao" when absolutely no other work of fiction on this planet does anything similar to that. Seriously, what stopped BBS or DDD from being "Kingdom Hearts 3"? And speaking of which, KH3 having absolutely no fucking original plot threads of it's own and just running like hell to fucking tie up every single loose end was an absolute mess. I was so pissed that this fucking "true Organization 13" was just an awkward 3v3 slap fight where nobody gets a chance to shine when KH2 did it way fucking better.

You know what else was fucking bullshit? People not having voices. Like, that's how they hid who people were. They just don't actually have fucking voices.

I swear that the only reason 2 is praised so highly is because of it’s post-game content.

2 has it’s moments of excellence for sure, but it also has some genuinely cringeworthy and just plain terrible moments mixed with it.

I didnt have a problem with the Organization in CoM and 2, but holy fuck what was the mess of a plot with their involvement in 3? They basically wandered around doing fuck all beyond the occasional quips or cryptic lines. It felt like they were mostly pointless save for a few exceptionally minor roles up till the final battle in a game that already had "pointless story" for the first 2/3rds already with just the Disney stuff not fucking mattering.

the funny part is they pretend it's good once you do play them. It's even worse. I know this because I got 1.5 and 2.5 to see for myself

2 was shat on when it came out, litearlly the same press X to win shit in KH3. Only 2FM critical end game saved it and even then 90% of the game sucks

Which is why I enjoyed Luxord in 3, because he was the only one doing something for the sake of games. The way Jack defeated Luxord was 10/10

Oh, I remember. I don’t even dislike 2, but people who call it one of the best action games ever made forget that the Org fights, Sephiroth and LW are the only fights in the game that even remotely challenge you. The game is genuinely a case of “it gets good after you finish it”.

I’m also suprised more people don’t give the cutscene direction more flak either. KH2 has some of the most poorly directed cutscenes I’ve seen in any game.

Ansem was fucking based. And Billy Zane's performance was fucking kino.

youtube.com/watch?v=JHqh3QmUkvc

The mysterious nature of Ansem really sells him. Only getting to know him through the reports (that you don't even get in the correct order) helps a lot. And when you finally do meet him, Billy Zane gives such a good fucking performance, convincing you that he does actually know most of what's going on. Shit blew my 9 year old mind. Really wish he had kept voicing him.

Yeah 1 actually had a decent plot. It was trash well before two was over.

There was no reason for Ventus and Vanitas to look the way they did too. They should have been they’re own character designs. They are like that just for teasing images online.

I beat him on Proud mode at level 71, didn't die once, I felt goosebumps during the whole thing today. I prefer it to Xemnas I think... Destati is fucking great, so that helps too

I just enjoyed his character more in 3. I agree that Zane has a godlike voice but how should I take him seriously when literally 90% of his sentences include the word "DARKNESS"? What a stupid character even for KH standards, even Vanitas wasn't that obnoxious about the dark stuff. Ansem had actual conversations in 3, and him freaking out about Pence was fire

Just make the Org members Ansem's super elite death squad. Maybe have a plot element in the later games how the Org infights and some stick with Ansem, some side with Sora (kind of) and others splinter into their own even more nefarious outfit. And the Disney world stuff actually mattered in the plot. Wow that sounds fun!!! More fun than MUH DARKNESS shit forever

Yes, thats why i love kh 1 so much. There is so little stupid shit about the plot also the plot is not serious enough to be pretentious, still the ending is super weak because obvious reason

Oh yeah, forgot about the reports. I always procrastinated and thought I'd read them once I had them all, and then I never bother lol. Should've read those to appreciate him more I guess?

>implying org XIII wasn't in KHI
he says hello

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He's saying the designs of the Disney bosses don't allow for the kind of fights offered by the Organization characters

Like how the fuck are you gonna make Oogie Boogie fight like Lexaeus

ansem's character was through the reports, his obsession with darkness make sense until the retcons in 2

>final mix after nomura decided to turn this series into his fapfic

by giving him earthquakes and stuns?

>is in the original KH1 release

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I for one always found the transition between Ansem and Org XIII to be really janky. As in you play all of KH1 to beat this guy and then suddenly Org XIII comes out of nowhere and the overall tone of the series changes. Honestly felt like I was watch two plots of different series even though they are of the same series

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Never felt that way to me, but I played CoM before KHII came out so I got eased into the Organization that way

And the Japs got a preview with the Xemnas fight in KHFM

I think he's talking about CoM, they're treated as though they are spin off villains that appear out of nowhere and then KH2 happens. I'm pretty sure this was the case, it's obvious nomura is writing as he goes along

I guess so but it still just feels kind of weird

I think the Org XIII stuff worked in its simplest form: they were Ansem’s brightest pupils and banded together to fulfill their own agendas with the knowledge they gained by following him. It would have been better if they had been alluded to earlier in the first game, but it was clear that Nomura wasn’t entirely sure if and how a sequel would happen.

The Org XIII stuff definitely does fall apart though once they throw in the dumb time travel shenanigans and introduce “old Xehanort” as the original one who predates even Ansem. Xehanort should have just remained Xemnas, Ansem’s best apprentice. Noting more.

You've got to give Xemnas credit for his performance as well. He's not as mysterious as Ansem, but he knows how to steal the spotlight on the rare occasions when he has screen time.

To be fair, the transition isn't as stark if you play CoM beforehand.

Until I played KH2 I seriously thought that he was the mad scientist

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It does turn "It is I, Ansem, the Seeker of Darkness" into an "oh shit" moment when you've got an idea of who he is from reading half of the reports. Reading the other half, specially the the 10th one where he states that's he's going to succumb to darkness before facing him as the final boss really elevated the moment for me when I first played it.

I'm pretty sure Ansem SoD was supposed to be mad scientist until KH2 came and retconned everything.

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You mean COM

I remember making that screenshot

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he was, nomura doesn't know what the fuck he's doing and it shows. Every KH game retcons shit

>playing an action game for the story

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with shit like this I'm glad the series has good gameplay

CoM introduced the Organization and DiZ and started making KH more convoluted, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until KH2 that they introduced Xemnas properly and did the whole "two Ansems" and "Ansem != Xehanort" twist. Hell, I'm pretty sure the "Ansem == DiZ" twist wasn't thought of until KH2 either.

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KH is an RPG

The organization as enemies is fine, what pushed it too far is the retarded time travel shit.
If Nomura really wanted past main villains to return he could just recreate them with data and replicas instead of the convoluted sending their past hearts into the future bullshit and then having no repercussions when they get "killed" in the future because that would fuck up the timeline.

Oh yeah, Xemnas VA is great. He just flat out sounds powerful with his deep voice. "You feel nothing. Nothing is real. I can give you purpose."

unfortunately osaka team fucked that up after 2

>and then having no repercussions when they get "killed" in the future because that would fuck up the timeline.
Would you rather it DID fuck up the timeline and have us dealing with ACTUAL time travel shit in KH?

Because I vastly prefer Nomura's paradox-proof time displacement that keeps everything on a single timeline.

Also they did use Replicas. In DDD the time traveling members had a time limit. In KHIII Xehanort houses their hearts inside Replicas to circumvent that limitation.

I mean, if you're going to shove in 10 hour of cutscenes they better be at least tolerable

It made that reveal so much better.

>FF characters talk about all the good he's done
>Reports start to show his slipping
>Riku fight
>"It is I, Ansem THE SEEKER OF DARKNESS!"

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>KH1 is the only square soft KH game
made me think

I was actually saddened when I first booted up KHFM HD and saw Square Enix instead of Square Soft during the intro.

It's also cool that you first meet him on Destiny Islands.

You're missing the point, instead of making a convoluted way of having past main villains return via time travel, he could just recreate them using data and replicas.

I felt the same way when I borrowed a friend's copy of FFX on PS4. There was something about the late 90's and early 00's Square games that modern RPG's fail to capture.

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>"So you have come this far and still you understand nothing."

When I saw the credits it did weird me out how Sakaguchi and Nojima were involved with KH1 back then, and now KH3 doesn't have a single actual FF character to its name. Gimme FF DLC pls Nomura

Sakaguchi was pretty much kicked out of Square once they merged with Enix and they realized how much The Spirits Within cost the company.

Sad times.

kingdom hearts 1 is the best because billy zane voiced him

The funny thing about KH2's story is that, contrary to popular belief, it's neither convoluted nor even that bad. KH2's plot can be summarised as follows: "disgraced scientist wants to get revenge on his apprentice, and he uses Sora and Roxas to do his dirty work to this end". It's simple af.

The problem however, is that the story is told in a cumbersome way. Having 15 hours of filler between major plot points makes things difficult to follow. On top of that, the game also has a problem if cramming in plot twists for the sake of plot twists-- often times back-to-back. The worst offender of this is the cutscenes after the 1000 heartless battle, where Xemnas' plan, the way releasing hearts works, Kairi being handed over to Saix and Sora finding the box with the sea salt ice cream in it, are all revealed in one cutscene.

tl;dr KH2 is a simple story told in a needlessly convoluted way.

No you're right, KH2 was a good game but the story didn't need to go so off the rails and now we have this shitty excuse for a game called KH3 but that's only partly due to this blunder

i never found KH hard to understand. it's just stupid.

The story isn't too bad until DDD.

Replicas and data don't match the real deal

It can be if Nomura writes it to be possible.
For a main villain who was a scientist focusing on making fake hearts through data and new stronger bodies, resorting to just lol time magic out of nowhere to complete his final plan seems unsatisfying.

>yfw you realize Ansem the Wise was DiZ because they share the same voice actor in the flashback cutscene

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I mean presumably the Replica Program was always in service of this plan.
And using past versions of himself reduces the amount of times he has to split his heart up to create new versions of himself.

As for data, we don't really have a canon example of Xehanort attempting to utilize data copies. The Garden of Assemblage isn't referenced in any story scene nor are there ever any mentions of the Organization creating data of themselves.

I was too retarded as a kid to recognize voices between characters, the giant red scarf made me a little suspicious though.

No, it should have been about the Disney villains with Malifecent being the main antagonist the whole time. It took them one fucking game to run out of ideas for the Disney properties and they just made the story uninspired trash like all their other games.

>"Hey, we've got access to some of the most recognizable IP's in history and can do whatever we want with them! What should we do for the sequel?

>"I know! Let's say fuck all that and just make the whole story about our generic anime faggots instead!"

>The Garden of Assemblage isn't referenced in any story scene nor are there ever any mentions of the Organization creating data of themselves.
Shit, could you imagine if Nomura actually worked the data Org into canon? He did for Lingering Will and Xemnas in 1.

The fact that people actually praised the story shifting away from the Disney elements and villains is what baffles me. Wasn't that the core of Kingdom Hearts, the blending of Disney and Square properties? By the end of 2 and 3 all those elements are extraneous to the proceedings.
What a waste of an opportunity.

The problem is Nomura kept pulling shit out of his ass to drag out the Xehanort/Organization after it was already resolved in 2. KH3 should have been focused on new characters, villains and stories. Instead it haphazardly tried to wrap up 13 years of handheld games to the point where it has no original plot of its own.

The Disney worlds have always been set dressing and the FF characters have always been supporting cast/cameos

Disney is incredibly protective of their IPs which means the amount of things Nomura is allowed to do with them is really, really small.
You know how in KH1, Mickey only appears for one scene, as a silhouette, in the background of the shot?

That's all Nomura was allowed to do with him at that time.

Without the original cast and story, KH would have nothing because Disney is autistic.

I'll argue that in the first game they were more than set dressing, the princesses of heart and Maleficent played a much larger role, and were needed for the story to play out. Take them out of the sequels and not much changes.

I will agree that the suits at Disney are cunts, but they were obviously allowed more leeway by the time of 2 and follow-ups.

That Billy Zane had so much fun with what on a script is such a stupid character is one of the thing that highlights the strange fun of these.

They both ask you to care about a lot of silly periphery stuff in a short amount of time. I am sure we could make "time until first Disney world" lists like Legend of Zelda fans do with how long it takes to get your first sword. But while Kingdom Hearts 1 has a big intro and then moves into story points that are built up over the rest of the game, Kingdom Hearts 2 throws the entire plot at you, then tells you to play around in a bunch of Disney movies that have nothing to do with what the game just told you you are supposed to care about.

I find that reading 2's reports before the last boss has a similar effect "Sora will be awake soon, time to go to work." "Get ready Xemnas, it all ends here!" Definitely deliberate.

It was doomed to be lighting in a bottle no matter how you handled it. Nomura, no doubt enjoying having his own series to work on, just swung too far in one direction.

Well it appears even now in KHIII Disney doesn't want their properties to matter in the game's story.

Arendelle is the world that had the biggest Disney involvement, which can clearly be seen by the amount of pre-rendered scenes (Let It Go is also very obviously animated by Disney), and the fact that Sora is effectively absent for the entire plot.
Same for Corona. Even The Caribbean does this.

Also it seems like Pixar really needed their characters to be the heroes that show Xehanort who's boss, instead of the actual hero of the story who actually has a relationship with these villains.

It's pretty obvious that all Disney wants from KH is shallow fanservice. And that isn't very conducive to a continuous narrative over several games.
Nomura's original story is the only thing keeping KH alive, even if most of the normie fans don't care about it.