Make massive open world for players to explore

Radiant questing is the worst bullshit and I hate how much it drug down the guilds.

Honestly, it's just because the "modern gamer" is literally a fucking retard.

>the zoomer response

better quest descriptions mod

lazyness combined with the fact that there's too much money to get from idiots who think a game's quality = graphics.

There's nothing to explore.
The devs won't bother putting interesting shit to discover out in the world if they know players are just making a beeline from objective to objective.

>just use a mod!
Why is it that every time this subject gets brought up a faggot appears who misses the point entirely.

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Because people play it and buy it in vast quantities higher than prior systems.

hes just trying to help you insufferable mongoloid

that's skyrim's only redeeming quality

mods are fun and all but is it really the responsibility (and cost) of modders to make a game actually decent?

On that note, why does anyone defend skyrim with the "but it's good when modded"-comment?
that's like saying "yeah this house is great" when you're talking about the foundation and not the actual house itself

Help what? The discussion is about how the inclusion of quest markers hurt modern world/quest design. Not how to fix Skyrim.

A polished turd is still a turd.
I've yet to see a mod that makes the combat fun, let alone fix the countless other fundamental flaws of game.

not him but, that might be true although i'm inclined to believe that he's one of those idiots who think skyrim is great because it can be modded

every time someone says this or something similar they're far from being familiar with skyrim modding, they just glance at some mods and go "meh"

>Radiant questing is the worst bullshit
This and all of this. There is literally and I mean literally nothing to gain at the end of them half the time. And don't get me started on the fucking Word Of Power quest insta kill glitch. FUCKING TODD.

>it's been +7 fucking years since Skyrim's release
>people still talk about this dumb shit
>people still post the same opinions in every thread
>people still bite the same baits in every thread

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not him but i've tried tons of mods and any of them changes the fact that skyrim is just straight up boring.
you enjoy it for like 5h tops and then you're like "this again?"

And remember when ES6 comes out for PS5 and XB2. We WILL HAVE IT ALL OVER AGAIN for another 7 YEARS. Can't wait. And we all know Bethesda won't fix the game. That for the modders to do for free AGAIN.

dem feels when morrowinds mage guild's first 2 quests were better than literally all of the skyrim quests combined

this is true but then again, it's a solid business plan, assuming modders will come to the rescue.
not defending bethesda but it is logcail, if you think modders are there for you

>It's been +7 fucking years since Skyrim's release
>people still talk about this dumb shit
Because it's still relevant, you dolt. Fallout 4 was, like Skyrim, designed around the inclusion of quest markers, and Starfield likely will be as well. I'd argue that Witcher 3 and RDR2 also suffered from it (although those games rely on minimaps instead of quest markers, but it's a similar issue).

I think the only modern openworld/rpq-esqe game I've seen recently that didn't feature this issue was the latest Assassin's Creed game.

This. Open world was a huge meme on Yea Forums for a long time and whenever we had "ideal game/sequel" threads it was always open world this or that but honestly they're just fucking boring. Give me a focused game I can replay over a 60 hour checklist of "INFINITE!!" boring chores any day.

Why are you playing a TES game if you're not going to mod it?

>I think the only modern openworld/rpq-esqe game I've seen recently that didn't feature this issue was the latest Assassin's Creed game.
Fable 2 has a golden glowing trail you can turn off if you want. Hell if you choose not to get your bru back the golden marker doubles as your bru too.

yes the npcs do. look up any skyrim quest in uesp. they all list the location where you are supposed to go.

whats the glitch?

>they all list the location where you are supposed to go
They give you the name of the location, but they don't tell you where to look to find it or how to get there. That's the issue.

i did thieves guild in skyrim and i thought the quests were pretty decent for this kind of game. story went to absolute shit though as soon as Mercer turns though.

>it's a solid business plan, assuming modders will come to the rescue.
Well now modding is majorly in consoles too know for Fallout 4 and Skyrim alike. Of course modders are going to lick Todds butthole for a small chance there mod will be in ES6, DLC or something. That's the thing now. Todd as all consoles on his shit. HARD. Don't know about Switch and modding. But PS4 and XB1 again now do modding. So when ES6 comes out. Todd literally has the pick of the consoles, the pick of the modders and the pick of marketing it too. I know everyone is like or is still *FUCK TODD AND FUCK 76*. Yet those people are still modding Skyrim Shit Edition for XB1 and PS4. So what I'm saying is. Everyone thinks Todd is done for. But like EA and fucking Apex. Everyone will be back to lick Todds feet for ES6.

i've always loved the sort of "semi-open world" a'la bg.
You are not allowed to enter EVERY area but you can still enter most of the areas whenever you want.

That's actually the superior way, but bg's way was still a bit less than best.

Personally, hub worlds are the way to go. Semi-open areas that you can do sidequests in that area, but not enough to burn out completely from.
Means you can never progress so far in the story that everything in the story quests you stalled are completely boring.

>complains about quest markers telling you exactly where to go
>NPCs give you the general location and you can explore from there
>BUT THEN I WON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE TO GO!

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What are you going on about? The point of the thread is how quest markers (or minimaps, etc.) can negatively impact the they're included in. It has nothing to do with modding TES games.

Every thread about TES games is about modded TES games, OP posted a TES specific game icon, and everyone was discussing TES literally 2 posts in.

not him but are you legit mentally challenged?
i'm sorry if you are, but if not, you really should think about what you say before you open that trap of yours

again, are you stupid?
there is a difference in "go to X" and "ok, so there's a town roughly west of us, go there and then take the road that leads southwest. You sould get to a tree that looks like a dick ..."

>NPCs give you the general location
Wrong. Most of Skyrim's npcs just give you a name of the location, or they don't give you anything at all because the quest relies on a randomized location. If Skyrim's npcs gave you a general location or general directions like Morrowind, this thread wouldn't exist.

>whats the glitch?
Basically and this is majorly on XB1 Skyrim Special Edition. But when you get the word of power quests from the Grey beards. Because some fuck face idiot literally didn't think or whatever. They made like doubles of words of power when Dawn Guard DLC came out so when you got this one.
>Find the Word of Power in Arcwind Point
You go to the place. Fuck up the Dragon and Dragur. Go to the Word wall. Can't learn the fucking word. So then you can't get anymore Word Of Power Quests. And since ironically an XB1 doesn't HAVE A FUCKING COMMAND CONSOLE. Even tho it is a console. Yet PC does. You have to search for Words Of Power on your own.

Just open the map. Even Morrowind had a map. I know you know how to read a video game map.

This is false, btw.

>OP posted a TES specific game icon
Because Skyrim is an example of what OP was talking about, not the absolute main focus. You're exactly the type of moron was talking about.

true, thieves guild quests were pretty nice but weren't they essentially the same as earlier games?
You really should use like 10s on your writing, really hard to follow your thoughts.
anyways, no one actually thinks todd is done for, everyone is just saying todd makes shitty games which are somewhat repaired by modders.
oh and also, idiots still buy shitty games.

>"Hey can you go pick up the pizza I ordered?"
>Sure, where is it?
>"It's in town."
>Ok but where in town
>"In town."
>I don't know where the pizza restaurant is can you just give me directions
>"Dude just go to town lmao"

all the various games guild quests suck because they all end up the same. Someone shows up and magically becomes leader within a few weeks, at best.

The problem of "NPCs not having good question descriptions" was specifically about TES NPCs. You're being obtuse for the sake of arguing a niche point about modding quest descriptions.

>Just open the map

also
>Even Morrowind had a map
Several (if not most) quests did not show an exact location on your map. But you've clearly never played Morrowind, so whatever.

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Are you really comparing open world exploration games to pizza delivery? Holy shit.

are you actually retarded?
your comment makes literally no sense...
sure, morrowind has a map but how is that even remotely relevant to what has been discussed earlier?

tl;dr
there is a difference between "go to coordinates xx,yy" and "go in this direction until you see this and then go there"

did any quests show on map (assuming you didn't have mods and/or bloodmoon/tribunal installed)?
cause i'm pretty sure that i never saw a single quest marker or "go to this location" in the whole game

The only one moving fence posts here is you. The first complaint was that there was no way to know where to go without quest markers. The NPCs tell you where to go. Then the complaint was that they didn't tell you HOW to get there. There's a map. Now the complaint is that the map doesn't give you an exact location (e.g. a fucking quest marker)?

imagine thinking searching for 10 minutes to find some tiny inane object hidden in a room is a good use of time. neets deserve no say on what is or isnt good game design

>The problem of "NPCs not having good question descriptions" was specifically about TES NPCs
No it wasn't. Bethesda's Fallout games and other "immersive" open world games like Red Dead 2 or Witcher 3 as that other user stated suffer from the same shit. Hell, the OP specifically stated "modern game devs" and "open worlds" in a general sense, which he wouldn't have done if he was talking a specific series or dev.

user, people really just want to be babied but they want to feel like big boys about it. Yes, they want quest markers. That's why they were put in. They just don't want to feel like babies for wanting them, which is just up to them really, especially when they're optional.

switch to superior rpg's, mm's are pretty nice at least, wizardrys are prolly good too. i know wizardry 8 is supposedly great.
FYI mm7 is pretty shit compared to 6 even though people say it's the opposite

Care to point out why that is a bad analogy?

Having the community fix your problems is the sign of a bad game, especially when they're unable to fix the root of the problem no matter what they do. Just because Skyrim can be heavily modded doesn't make it good, it just means you have to bust your ass just so you have a halfway decent experience. Mods should be seen as expansion packs, something to get more out of your game once you've played it so many times or even once and you want something new. It shouldn't be bandages and duct tape trying to reinforce some busted pipes.

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>"The whole GAME (NB: "game" is singular) is designed with the quest marker in mind though.
>You rarely if ever receive detailed directions from NPCs."
>they were talking about multiple other games though
okay, if you say so dude.

Good point. Actually why are there even enemies in games? They should already be dead, they're just going to be killed anyway.

You don't need them in rdr2, NPCs tell you direction so you can turn them off

Seeth more boomers

This is why you just play Witcher 3 dumbass

I wrote it out but the better answer is really just "no."

>hurr durr I want 5 minutes of explanation of how to go from point A to B from an NPC EVERY SINGLE TIME I make a new mission
you are turbo autistic

>The first complaint was that there was no way to know where to go without quest markers. The NPCs tell you where to go.
Don't be an idiot. There's a clear difference between an npc only giving you the name of a location and giving the general area of said location.

if they had detailed directions theyd do it themselves dumbass

Ah you don't actually have a response. OK.

>>hurr durr I want 5 minutes of explanation of how to go from point A to B from an NPC EVERY SINGLE TIME I make a new mission
>you are turbo autistic

Navigation and pathfinding can be part of the game.

>You don't need them in rdr2, NPCs tell you direction so you can turn them off
That isn't true at all.

Nope. How did I beat the game without them then?

jesus christ, you're missing his point.
he wants to be told general directions about the area where he is supposed to look for X, not told the exact location.
This is the real life version of it, he wants to be told "drive along 3rd street, when you see the red building, take a left. It's somewhere around there" but what skyrim does is "yeah, go to 212 west 22nd street, apartment 7"

get it? don't tell the player EXACTLY where to go, instead describe where

So staring at a quest marker on a compass is bad but staring at a quest marker on a minimap is okay?

at least take the time to read what was posted before...
2.3 clicks would have given you the info you needed, i was actually talking about how the 2-3 quests of mages guild were amazing.
anyways, how does the ending a quest chain somehow make the first quest shit?

>at least take the time to read what was posted before...
no

>"The whole GAME (NB: "game" is singular) is designed with the quest marker in mind though.
OP never said that.
>You rarely if ever receive detailed directions from NPCs."
>they were talking about multiple other games though
They certainly could have (and likely were) because other games DO suffer from the same issue. It's not that difficult.

>reading is haaaaaaard
you are turbo retarded

then don't bother posting irrelevant shit

Doesn't stop guild questlines sucking ass
even if some of the missions are decent

>>highlight key items so players never ever need to actively search around or search for clues about what they are looking for

The Dwermer Puzzle Box says hi.

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Probably because you're lying. Some npcs give you a very generalized location (e.g. west of Grizzlies, or whatever), but the directions are never detailed enough to the point where you don't have to regularly use your map just to gain a proper sense of place.

>Fill the world with tons of pointless long stretches of filler retail space
>have to put an arrow to tell you where to go, making the open world gimmick pointless

You know, I can't agree any harder.
GPS and google maps really have casualized the pizza industry
Before you'd have to know how to get to places. It took skill to be a pizza delivery guy. Now? Fucking casuals just use GPS.

It's truly disgusting

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It's a video game, not a movie. Yea Forums is a better board for you

and no one said the questline was good, we were saying the questline had good quests.
learn the difference.

Fun ass quest. Finally seeing it made me genuinely happy.

>random peasant is supposed to know explicit instructions to get somewhere.

Test

Finding someone who knows directions should be a part of the quest, then.

If everyone knows where shit is, why would it be hidden still?

It's not hidden, it's just too dangerous for common citizens to acquire themselves.

>as if he implying someone random should know the exact location
perhaps, i mean if you took your head out of your ass, you could understand that a random person MIGHT know the GENERAL direction?
as in a random person in let's say las vegas knows that new york is fucking east of las vegas...
another example, a person in canada knows that usa is south of canada.

even a third one just so an idiot like you can get a grip.
WE ARE ALL ABOVE YOU

>"UUUUUGGGGHHHHHH this quest is taking SOOooo LOOOoonnggg"
>*opens wiki*
boy that was tough

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Useful directions
Go west from New York
You might hit Las Vegas sometime

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>shaggyposting

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user, if you can't tell why people would have different reactions to open-ended instructions in an adventure game and a real life pizza delivery there's really nothing to discuss.

skyrim looked like shit though, even back then

That's basically a standard of the TES series.

>still actively discourage exploration of any kind by railroading the player from point A to point B
The map marker doesn't do that, it's you that does it. I have never had this problem. If anything, the map markers make me explore more, since there's always another landmark just over that hill that I'm compelled to discover before I can get on with this quest.
I seriously cannot imagine how autistic you have to be to just ignore all the shit you encounter in Skyrim and just make a beeline for a quest.

Zoomers

i explore skyrim on my own. i dont give a fuck. its comfy as shit. i like just waliking around and soaking it in

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yeah, because asking again when you're closer is a crime?
here's how it worked before all the technology and knowledge.

Go to A, ask where D is, they tell you it's in direction a. walk in direction a, notice town B.
ask again, they tell direction b. walk in direction b, get to town c, ask again, they tell you "oh yeah, it's like 2 miles that way", start walking 2 miles that way but before that notice a town on your left. go there, FUCKING HELL, you're in the place you wanted to be!

should be pretty easy to follow and understand, right?
Honestly, someone as dense as you might still have a problem

well, i didn't care desu, graphics has never been ta thing for me.
i loved the game for the first 2-3 hours but then it was so crazy repetitive which just made my brain a soggy mess and killed my desire to play

Could work. Might also be hugely tedious and players would just drop playing the game and look up the answer.
Most systems prior to this didn't even do what you discuss. There might be one person to ask, but they'll tell you basically everything you need to know.

Hell, many games were intentionally vague on locations to encourage exploration. All you have done is create explicit instructions, but with more steps involved.

just turn off your brain bro

Conan Exiles doesn't use map pointers, I think.

why does everything have to be argumentative? maybe he was just letting people know there’s a mod to improve the no marker experience

Ultimately the argument is just that if the game requires "fixing" then its bad. In the end, you are just tailoring your experience to how you want it to be and that's fine.

...
not a suggestion, just a description. Essentially how it works in morrowind while skyrim is still "your quest is "kill Bob killwater who is in position xxx,yyy"

also for some,tediout, for some, adventurous. either way the difference is " go to position X" and "go there and there, ask for help, maybe you find it"

very few morrowind quests in morrowind required even remotely that much help.

Never thought I'd see Yea Forums so adamant about defending Skyrim of all games.

just stop.

AC: Odyssey had an option to turn off the auto markers and made you search stuff out on your own, not as unguided as morrowind, but still felt nice to have to explore the world

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>don't like it, don't use it!

Meme fucking answer.
Nobody wants to gimp half of the game to enjoy themselves when designers could just design a good game in the first place.

>massive

>exploring the middle of nowhere
>see a burning cabin in the distance, anticipating the chance to give raiders the vampire succ
>it's got a charred body, a scroll of summon flame atronoch, and a summoning circle of candles with one burnt out
There are rewards for exploring.