How do we make fighting games less difficult and more accessible?

because you want to remove the challenge and keep the reward. how would you make them "more accessible" then they already are and why? you know unless your game has some depth it's going to be shit, right?

But Smash is a party game but it's more difficult

dragon ball fighterz and tekken have autocombos.

Crosstag
Persona arena
FighterZ
Any smash bros game

now get the fuck out of here casualfag fighting games are for people who actually put in effort to learn the gameplay and their charaters and yes that's fun. You don't get to decide what is and isn't fun.

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Under Night is honestly a pretty good example of a fighter that's simple but still not so dumb it's not fun like dbfz

Imo fighting games are going into the wrong direction, they should become more difficult and complex like shmups. Instead everyone is trying to get the casual audience.

But I like my games autisticly confusing as possible

I feel like skullgirls does a pretty good job of it. Special moves only require quarter circle movements or DP movements, no half circle movements or anything else weird, with only one or two exceptions that require a 360 motion. That alone helped me perform special moves and combos much more consistently then when playing SF and such. I feel it's a good balance of simplifying unecessarily difficult aspects while still requiring practice and such to perform combos.

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>How do we make fighting games less difficult and more accessible?

Fighting games are the easiest they've ever been
>simplified buttons
>shortcuts
>longer input windows
>comeback mechanics galore
>ggpo/netplay
>tutorials/Wiki's out the ass in the game and on the internet

It's less fighting games aren't accessible and more like gamers are just lazy, also since fighters don't revolve around teams you can't blame anyone but yourself for getting BTFO'd

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>difficult and complex
>like shmups

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Every fightre game i try fiht game not fightergame foghtergame

I see where you're coming from, but because it's a versus game there's the inherent problem of finding opponents.

The game needs to have a low enough skill floor to allow a lot of players in from the lower skill levels. And a high skill ceiling with decent balance for good competitive play.

If a game is too complex and difficult, you end up only the best players sticking to it, which makes any sort of online versus completely inaccessible for a newbie.

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user are you okay

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>h-heh we don't w-want fighting games to be more accessible
>90% of fighting games require begging in discord to find a match

>fighting games keep gettinf more simplified and more accessible
>sales drop more and more
Really makes me think

user?

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sure but there are 5 people in the world who can play high level smash as opposed to street fighter where there are thousands of entrants who are equally skilled and can all play at high level

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And I'm sure they'd increase if they got more obtuse, right?

I don't think making them less difficult will result in a better game since perfect play just becomes RPS statistics, and the constant threat of mistakes keeps high level play exciting. Fighting games can do a lot better though at explaining all the tools available to players. Most games don't even mention all the mechanics in the tutorials, and those that do, often don't use plain (or even common FGC) language to explain things that are actually rather simple in practice.

Having no one to blame is the best part of fighting games
Its improved me in other games as well

Accessibility is a nice notion, but ultimately futile. Casual players want to play in a casual capacity; there are still plenty of people who simply enjoy story mode and occasionally beating up a CPU. They should focus first on making a good game, not necessarily a complicated one or a simple one, but one where it feels satisfying to play. If a casual player wants to start playing more competitively, they'll go where they need to.

it doesnt matter, people that like fighting games and puton time to understand the game and its mechanics always gonna shit on casuals, it doesnt matter how much casual the game is. thats the nature of fighting games.
what they need to do is get rid off the single player content, and make it online only, force the little shits to play against other people. they learn not to mash or they dont play at all

>also since fighters don't revolve around teams you can't blame anyone but yourself for getting BTFO'd
No, people just blame the other person for "lagging" or "playing a cheap character". People will always find a way to deflect the blame.

>smash
>more difficult
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

We don't. It's a fallacy to assume that people actually care about this shit when in the real world the only people complaining about it are a small group of people right on the fringe between casuals and competitive players.

Tekken has never compromised (at as hard as SF/Anime titles do) and it still sells millions and it's scene is the only one that is actually fucking growing each year.

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>Every fightre game i try fiht game not fightergame foghtergame
what

>love the footsies, neutral, mindgames, etc.
>hate the autistic execution requirements, massive combo lengths, burden of knowledge framedata/setup memorization

Fighting games are not approachable unless you're some kind of autistic savant

Imagine being this stinky

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Sounds like he was trying to say the typical "every fighting game I fight the game and not the player". At least that's what I assume.

>smash
>more difficult

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>less difficult and more accessible

When people use these words, It mostly boils down to wanting the game to be simpler so they can win more. The problem is that fighting games are PvP games. Simpler mechanics won't guarantee that you win. It only strips the game of depth in the long run.

You could remove inputs, turn every series of buttons into a 5-hit target combo for every character, Make all health pools the same size. Add a 1 button comeback special..But would any of those things make the game better?

If we make the game easier, then anyone can be the next Diego

Tekken is a button masher at its base level but has a learning "curve" of a 90 degree vertical wall that comes from glitches, frame perfect tricks, and memorization of things that are totally unexplained and arbitrary

Tekken is horribly designed, a frankensteins monster cobbled together and building off the same arcade game base from 1997

I'm just autistic and get by fine. They require dedication is all. I didn't a few wins in my first fighter untill about 300 hours of playing, and that was against other low level scrubs.

Nice

Tekken 7 is a predictable follow-up to a series that's never aimed particularly high, it may please casual gamers for a day or two but the stagnant ongoing series is definitely in the second tier of fighters way below Capcom or NetherRealm Studios games, and it's seriously getting old and tired. The lack of depth and subtlety and the emphasis on the offensive, rather than the defensive, puts this squarely two notches below the best in the genre, the "who-can-get-their-super-move-off-first" gameplay leaves much to be desired from a serious fighting game player. Like the prequels, Tekken 7 is geared towards casual gamers and anyone who's been exposed to more technical, more dynamic fighting games will quickly pass on tekken. Other top fighters, namely Street Fighter, DoA and MK games have advanced impressively in their latest installments; but the relic that is tekken just can't seem to evolve, furthermore many combos can be done simply by hitting 1-button, and the nearly "instant-kill" rage art moves are just laughably broken. Instead of a supplying a proper fighting engine, matches in T7 seem to rely heavily on "who can get their rage move off first". So many elements of the gameplay don't even require any sort of skill. In my book, slow motion over and over again also gets old very quickly. And in the end, it's more of a novelty or gimmick rather than an actual, thought-out fighting game mechanic. But hey, the casual crowd will be pleased!

If you want something a little more "button-masher-friendly," tekken might be your cup of tea.... Key word, might.

DP and HC aren't that hard to do.
Skullgirls also has NUMEROUS other problems.
Fighting Game accessibility has NOTHING to do with how high the skillcap is, it only takes a couple hours to get an understanding of how fighting games work. Games like Guilty Gear And even moreso Them's Fighin' Herds, which memes aside has possible the single best fighting game tutorial. are putting more and more effort into teaching less-well-known mechanics like teching, spacing, trading, etc. There are somethings in Fighting games you just CANNOT learn without practice, such as Yomi (prediction and being able to figure out what your opponent is likely to use based on the circumstance and the kit of said character is absolutely a skill), and you basically will never truly be able to learn without practice.

People are simply not used to the amount of work you have to put into fighting games. Usually people see putting extra effort as something undesirable, but people work and train for sports, art, hobbies, and tons of things. People need to get over it and realize you NEED to put in the effort to get good at fighting games, and generally the community is more than welcome to help you out, unless you're being a whiny little scrub about things (Yeah if you blame everything that goes wrong on everything but yourself people are going to get upset and not want to help you)

To put things in simpler terms, you simply have to 'git gud'. If you don't practice and train you simply won't get the results you're looking for.

Yeah, and normalfags want that.
>actually browsing /fgg/ enough to use their pastas
Kill yourself.

>tekken scene
>growing each year
lolno

By implementing easier characters for newbies, and maybe tone down in some aspects of the game, kinda like Tekken 7 did with it's new roster and how generic throws are broken now.

Well, turns out being archaic and arbitrary complex is irrelevant to casuals and straight up better for competitive community.
Cue SF5 Evo champions calling their game Job Fighter and complaining how much they hate it because absolutely everything was seen and figured out back in S1.

It's been like 20+ years of fighting games. My personal opinion is that the 2D camera view is the bottleneck. We already have the most optimized fighting games that have tried to make it more accessible as well as harder.

I don't think there is more to do from here. Fighting Games need to move to 3D and experiment, its been a while since I played a fun wrestling game.

Play Samsho.

and then had a stroke half way throught=

sonicfox detected.
try playing a game that isn't unga bunga rushdown

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please stop, the barrier to entry is what makes the genre interesting
there's a ton of games for people who suck, they've been making them since the late 90s

I didn't mean to imply SG is perfect, obviously it has its own problems like any fighting game, but personally it was really the game that helped me really get into the genre and I feel it's philosophy on execution helped a lot. Not to say that solely will help new players though.

>smash
>more difficult

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i only play melty blood

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Smash has 1-button execution requirements.
If you think being able to spam down B while sperging out on your controller for "movement options" you're delusional.

T7 is literally the only EVO title that has actually gained players between 2017 and 2018. It was more popular than both smashes.

The fuck are you talking about, you literally don't know what you're talking about.
I don't enjoy Tekken for personal reasons, but it is by far the most well put together current Fighting game by a wide margin, meanwhile SFV is a simplified mess (3S is still the best Street Fighter game, SFV is only played because keeps putting money into it), and MK11 looks like an absolute shitshow zoning hellscape.

>playing casual button mashing shit like tekken
>trying to pretend its completely dead "competitive" scene is actually growing
LMAO

STOP BEING A HUGE BITCH

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Korean backdashing is the most retarded thing ever included in a fighting game.
>DUDE LET's take this simple mechanic and make it unnecessarily complicated and tedious
Inb4
>GIT GUD LOL
No. I just won't play shitty archaic tekken thank you

Make it like Tekken 3

Appealing the casuals has never helped any series.
Stop it, git gud or move to another genre

Learning mechanics is never the issue. Anyone can learn mechanically how a fighting game works, they're never that complicated. The wall people reach is almost always learning neutral, because in some games it's extremely difficult just to learn what you're actually supposed to do and how you're actually supposed to think about neutral. It doesn't help that the vast majority of guides aren't helpful at all for learning that. It also doesn't help that neutral can be extremely different from one fighting game to the next, Melty Blood was the first fighting game I played and learning that game didn't help me with other games' neutral at all

*How do we ruin fighting games

This is the guy that makes that post all the time complaining about how heard combos are cause he can't get gud

I'm not a keken player, but I at least consider them more human then whatever it is that actually uses /fgg/. It's basically r/kappa 2.0.

>shortened backdashing
>complicated and tedious
you might be a fucking retard, no joke

Meanwhile in reality

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Do you actually think command specials are hard? When you say fighting games are hard are you seriously referring to the fact that you have to do a couple of directional inputs before doing a special? I can tell you don't actually play fighting games. Specials are not hard for anyone who has played more than 10 minutes of a fighting game

>How do we make fighting games less difficult and more accessible?
We don't. That was easy wasn't it?

Get women and betas out of video games.

>tekken
>backdashing
>complicated
LMAO dumb fucking false flagging tekkuck, you aren't fooling anyone

For Anime Fighters, Guilty is probably the single best game that has a seen to introduce players to the genre.
Skullgirls has numerous other problems like a massive tutorial that somehow manages to teach you barely anything. ArcSys Fighters in General probably have the most polish and accessibility without having to sacrifice anything.

Shit?

all fighting game except tekken are utter dogshit.
You can't prove me wrong.

>skill makes it so the person with greater experience and understanding of the game wins 100% of the time
>this is unfair
You have to wonder what makes people think this is ever a bad thing

Remember when tekkucks lied and try to claim kekken is the only game with back dash cancel
and it turns out lots of games have back dash cancel

Remember when tekkucks lied and try to claim kekkens back dash cancel is hard
and it turns out you can back dash cancel in kekken by just mashing down and back with no timing or anything

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I had a friend who used to bitch about how combos and execution made fighting games too hard and unfun.
We played a few matches of SFII and I beat him with only T hawks grabs and mashing jab. Didn't make the game any more fun for him for me to have less options, and that was actually the last time we met as friends.

The moral of the story is fuck you OP. Making fighting games less difficult doesn't mean shit if players are still going to be retarded and blame everything but their own lack of skill.

tekken is not a fighting game, its a casual party masher.

Its also complete shit.

I do not care I just wish there would be more than 14 people globally playing Blazblue

lol I bet you paid money for dragonball fighterz

rent free

>git gud
>friends no longer want to play with you because they're brainlets
>people rage quit
>community dies off to the point of only connecting to foreign countries
The struggle is real.

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>but it's more difficult

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Imagine having Harada live in your head rent free like this.

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Even harada says tekken is casual shit lmao

>you can back dash cancel in kekken by just mashing down and back with no timing or anything
no you can't?

No, good, like Tekken 3.

tfw people can't understand a basic sentence

Poster obviously meant that Smash is a party game that is more difficult than your average party game.

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The issue is, how do you replicate the dynamic of low mid and high in 3d space?

the comment about mashing is randomly pressing buttons without thought and the character will do something since tekken has a huge move list but easy to do since there's only 4 buttons
you can't mash something out in tekken, the input won't do anything, it has to be timed

We don't.

>like Tekken 3.
So shit then

You might wanna play Samsho then, since combos in that are almost all just special canceling one move.

That said by itself no combos isn't enough to make a game accessible. Samsho makes differences in skill very obvious very quickly and a new player will likely have a far easier time just mashing autocombo in any game that has it, no matter how suboptimal that might be.

Did you read my post nigger?
Smash is a baby game where every attack can be accessed with 1 button + 1 direction.
The only thing special about Smash is the ridiculous baby shit they pull out of their asses and "glitches" that make the competitive scene a joke.
Not to mention the way all the players act like manchildren is hilarious.

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I don't even know why Blazblue is gonna be at EVO in the first place. Sure it's new, as in UNIST, but the latter has way more players. GGXR2 is way older and still gets more players than Blazblue is getting.

Samurai showdown is pure neutral with like no combos unless you really wanna style and the enemy fucked up big time.

You know, I don't have an adequate answer to that. I think having a "high" and "low" attack would not be too difficult to design for a 3D fighter but another dimension would be tricky to make easy to use.

Alternatively one could do something like For Honor which had directional based attacks and blocks.

You don't.
Fuck the accessibility, fuck the esports, go back to poverty.

same desu, I would much rather have centralfiction or a new game

You don’t
Case and point Ultimate was made for meleefags with meleefags by Meleefags

1. Get rid of archaic inputs: map special attacks and block to physical buttons instead of forcing players to draw pretzels, map ultimates to simple button combinations (for example L1+R1)
2. Get rid of long combos, limiting them to four hits at most. Once a four hits combo finished the game must force both players to the starting position like real-life fencing and karate do when a point is scored.
3. Get rid of bars. Instead, give ultimates cooldowns.
4. Get rid of so many movement options. Just keep jumps and running, get rid of that small jumps, super jumps, super dodges and other nonsense.
5. Get rid of hidden gameplay mechanics of the "if one player has four full tech bars, three stocks, six instinct coins and his life is blinking purple by doing this combination he can cancel anything he's doing and execute an insteadeath ultimate" variety
6. Implement a comeback mechanic where a soundly defeated player (the one who lost two out of three fights and dealt little or not damage at all to his opponent) has a chance to win the fight through a QTE event.
7. Implement random critical hits
8. Implement RPG / progression mechanics
9. Instead of selling what amounts to a minigame for $60, make an actual singleplayer mode with story, maps to explore, lineal and non-lineal progression, bosses, equipment, items, NPCs, etcetera. Dark Souls proved that you can have a fighting game with real singleplayer content.

That's it.

Pls stop. Sfv was crap because of you guys

You can't. Shit like sf5, mk and dbfz got away with a bunch of shit people complained about and the same people got destroyed regardless.

The genre simply isn't for everyone and everyone has different problems with it. I for example can block the fuck out of anything but I never in my life was able to go into the offensive which is why the only game I was ever half decent was usf4.

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tekken 7 is really easy to get into and even then people dont play it
play tekken please

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Do people not realise there are games that have a simplified control mode where you can do one button specials, but people don't use them because they're worse? It's almost like command inputs are a good mechanic that people like...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I have never played fighting games in my life the post

I love Eliza so fucking much

P4A is the greatest "accessible" fighter and nobody can tell me otherwise.

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Accessibility wasn't even the worst of jive's problems. The heavy reliance of memorizing frame data due to how fucked neutral/pressure is and the weird ass hitboxes that don't match the animations (something the series had previously been really good about before) are both bigger issues and also huge barriers to entry for new players.

They don't want to admit they're shitters, it's not that hard to understand how pathetic these people are, user.

Really? I heard Tekken was the worst for trying to memorize combos

people dont play tekken because its shit

Literally nothing but pride stops them from playing on stylish/simple modes in most games.

Actually in FEXL people use the simplified mode because it's better and allows some tech you can't do normally, but that's also Nishitani so if anyone could make a new way of doing inputs work it'd be him.

fjghting games are a balancing act because its a hard sell to average joe as there’s not much “content” besides fighting, there’s no team to shift blame towards, and executionwise it can be tough. There’s no “one way” to grow the genre. You need a combo of some of the following for a game to be “successful”
>game feels satisfying to win in, but not frustrating to lose, a common “solution” is jank comeback mechanics so that you feel like you always have a chance
>enough depth for pros, easy enough to understand for idiots
>GOOD METHODS OF TEACHING HOW TO PLAY
>recognizable brand name
>enough single player so that even a crap player can enjoy beating up CPUs
this doesn’t necessarily make a game good, but it sells it better

ITT: People that don't know what a fighting game is, more people that don't know what a fighting game is but also smell bad, and seething people that can't admit that if the Tekken saga has sold almos 50M copies and stuck through the years it's because it's good.

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A REALLY developed single player/story mode that teaches the player difficult techniques in an interesting way.

tekken is utter trash, its a shit fighting game aimed at casual players, theres a reason why the game is dead competitively and why its the laughing stock of the FGC

fighting games (like card games) are only fun if you have PEOPLE you know in a ROOM with you playing. otherwise they're frustrating garbage.

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Smash already did it

>6,7 and 8
I see most of the other points constantly from retards who don't understand fighting games but this is a new low

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How about netcode that doesn't shit itself and makes the playerbase leave the game after being unable to play.

I'm assuming this is satire, but I've seen every one of these implemented except for the random criticals and they always ruin the game. When will people understand that execution is the first and easily the lowest obstacle you run into. You can memorize combos all you want but it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. I was teaching my friend to play and he made this excuse of not knowing combos. I showed him the error in his ways by playing one handed and using one button to beat him. Understanding the things beyond combos is more important.

OP said fighting game

unironically this

Here's a fighting game made just for you.
youtube.com/watch?v=V05tPjNNSPs

Im going to assume this is bait

Make every game play like DoA

If one were to make fighting games more accessible, they would need to have a great tutorial that delves into higher level mechanics, like footsies, reads, conditioning, zoning, etc. A meta that prioritizes neutral and decision making over optimized oki and setups is also good, because nobody, especially newbies, likes getting robbed with a 30% combo into ambiguous crossup into stun into reset after playing solidly for forty straight seconds. Consistent, low execution combos side by side with high execution max damage combos is good too.

MK11 is doing it better than SFV. High level players who have had more time with the game have said that there's unexplored depth and execution in the game, though the first three Kombat Kasts made it seem like the game was being simplified to a fault. Kano and Cassie both look like they have some tech to play with. They've made a lot of smart choices with balancing pressure and oki. Like Sub Zero's max damage combo side switches unless you add the Kold Shoulder to your loadout, which means you miss out on another move that could be beneficial

SFV is on the right track now. Season 4 does have a stronger neutral and decent game balance. They've pretty much undone the majority of their shitty design choices from the beginning. I'd say it's either slightly better or slightly worse than USFIV, which was a fun game with numerous faults.

>How do we make fighting games less difficult and more accessible?
What do you mean, "more accessible"? Fighting games are already one of the most accessible genres there is.

I can't think of a single genre of games where you can win simply by mashing a bunch of buttons and inadvertently executing a bunch of awesome combos.

Moreover, fighting games are fundamentally different from other competitive games in one important way. In other competitive games like arena FPS and RTS, level design plays a huge part and mastery over the environment is typically the key to success. Fighting games however take place on a flat 2D plane (even when they use 3D graphics), so the environment is a non-factor. This lack of environmental interactivity makes fighting games relatively static and means the skill ceiling is inherently limited, and makes it more accessible to newcomers to the genre.

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yikes. take a shower, please.

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if you remove complex inputs from a fighting game it either completely breaks the game or you have to casual it to shit in order to compensate

see SF4 on DS

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>i-its just the overly complex controls, I swear I could've won!!
cope

It's too late for fighting games to have any real mainstream appeal beyond brand recognition like with SF or MK. They don't really resemble an actual fight anymore and are more focused on increasing levels of mechanical minutiae.

Better to just focus on the dedicated audience who are into that kind of thing.

Thats not what he was saying at all....

Only because the statement is inherently false

No dumbass he's arguing in defense of traditional inputs by pointing out that they actually serve a game balance purpose rather than just being archaic holdouts.

Well then fuck ‘em
If I can beat a legit laggy Brazilian at 2 am after pulling an All-nighter you can git gud

You don't. Fighting games should stay as a genre with low skill floor and a very high skill ceiling, just like puzzle games like Tetris. What I mean is they should stay complex enough so casuals and compfags alike can enjoy different aspects of them.
>all these retards jumping to conclusions
What is reading comprehension

>Playing budget guilty gear

how do you cross a vega

>FGC cucks thing doing d df f + p is harder than a 255 APM game
o im laffin

Dashing flack kicks were fun as fuck. Even if gief and guile were basically the only usable characters they were still so broken it was funny.

youtube.com/watch?v=nUVtkzv6rog

Naoto is really difficult for me to play but the more I practice even getting little things correct feels good. We just have to find a way for everyone to get that feeling.

>People are actually biting this terrible bait

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>still being this salty because of evo
user... don't worry that new "simplified" GG is coming soon...

Instead of forcing well known franchises to appeal to a broader audience, encourage new IP's to be created that exist to specifically cater to a casual audience that'll allow them to slowly bridge the gap from casual to hardcore.

>tfw you do an instant 2-frame SPD in neutral

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We don't. I don't ask you to change whatever games you play. If you don't like fighters just frig off.

test

Low difficulty has nothing to do with accessibility unless the game is insanely convoluted. Accessibility is achieved through good tutorials, menus, and network features along with a large playerbase. A lot of fighting games try to dumb themselves down to make them more accessible then absolutely butcher the release, with the features being confusing to navigate for newcomers or straight up broken, which completely defeats the purpose. It's a chain reaction too because the more new players that leave the less people there are for noobs to play without getting totally owned and discouraged. Those of us who grind it out anyway were going to stick around regardless and are likely already playing the genre. IMO along with making sure everything is easy to navigate fighting games could benefit from being free to play, most people only play a handful of characters and you could just have everybody unlocked in training mode for free so people can demo them and still test situations if they don't own the character.

People have less than a fraction of your motivation, man. There's sucking at games and then there's 95% of Yea Forums

Naoto is unironically one of the best chars in BB

This is why I'm not too upset about SNK giving samurai showdown another try. Too bad most of the people that would probably like it the most are just gonna look over it because of "ded gaem" memes and shit.

how did all the people replying to this not realize it's satire?

Does the fuckhuge tutorial in Under Night actually help anyone? Do new players actually use it?

>Dark Souls proved that you can have a fighting game with real singleplayer content.
jesus christ, at least pick an actual fighting game like soulcalibur 3.

If by "less difficult" you mean making the skill ceiling lower and closing the gap between better and worse players, that could be done easily but it isn't surprising that developers don't just keep doing that. Every time they try to do push fighting games in that direction there's a huge backlash as well for obvious reasons: nobody really wants to reduce fighting games to coinflip simulators where skill barely matters. Sure a beginner might not be as frustrated in the beginning, but then he'll quickly realize the meaninglessness of winning and losing in the game and drop it. Nobody really benefits from that.

when user is making an argument about smash being "less difficult and more accessible" you can assume he's not talking about smelee

Combo is the easy part of tekken if i had to choose one. The real problem is movement including backdashing execution. Coming from 2D games i tried to get good at tekken without movement you can't foosties and make moves whiff for shit, can be frustrating. Also a loooot to learn, every moves, strings and dodges possible for each character.

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>Any trash bros game
>Hard
>Ever
LMAO

A) Movement in tekken is literally not needed at all

B) Movement in tekken is slow as shit with or without back dash canceling

C) back dash canceling in tekken requires no skill is far easier than every other game with back dash canceling

D) there is literally nothing to learn in tekken the game is shallow garbage

>Punishing the startup on moves with a 720

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Tekken is an extremely easy game, its even easier than SFV which is widely regarded as the easiest SF game
twitter.com/Nightris_/status/940724117765943296

Even the developer of tekken says its not a very complex game
playstationlifestyle.net/2017/06/03/harada-talks-tekken-difficulty-and-more/

Tekken has no footsies, its literally just taking turns trying to lauch each other till you can get your 1 button insta win super.

Movement/dashing in tekken is extremely easy, serves no real purpose and is not necessary
twitch.
tv/videos/209024121?t=7h3m53s

They are no mixups in tekken you can fuzzy guard OS high/mid/low extremely easy
youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0HiAIXllk

They are no "just frames in tekken" you can buffer any input
youtube.com/watch?v=mwnPryD2qXw
youtube.com/watch?v=xSYS9ZRf_J4

You dont need to learn frames in tekken as everything can be either OS'd or universal hop kick punished

tekken is casual trash and is more of a party game than an actual fighting game.

why cant you beat 1 person online in any tekken game if thats the case?

I think it's perfect for new players but I don't know anybody who's played UNIST that doesn't actually play other fighting games. It is literally everything a new player could want down to the finest details from system mechanics to strategy. For example, when it teaches you how to do a fireball it explains to you what the input actually is, how it changes for each side, how to do it, when to press the button, possible reasons for failing the input, etc. I remember the first time I played street fighter I got confused because it just shows you "motion + button" and I thought you had to press the button in the middle of the quarter circle.

do you actually think anyone will even read a word of this trash you copy pasted?
it's just you and your friend posting this garbage in every thread

>the autist has arrived
BLOODY ROAR IS DEAD HAHAHAHA

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I dont play kusoge

@453619397
>Game is dead competitively
I'm not gonna (You) a lousy liar, mastercup last year had 1120 entrants and EVO had 1538

I thought GG was supposed to be one of the hardest. What's the true hardest?

My local scene probably has 50% of the new players we get interested in Unist and the other 50% with 3S for some reason. Ironically enough a good number of the smash guys we share our venue with have expressed interest in unist despite not being at all interested in anything but DBFZ (and even then only casually).

>tekken
>No vertical play at all, dont want to have to deal with something like crossups in baby games like tekken
>Severely diminished horizontal play, no footsies, no neutral, just model to model take turns hitting buttons
>Footsies and spacing doesn't exist because baby mode side step
>Extremely slow attacks to make side stepping easier and even more brainless because tekken babies are literally brain dead and cant react to even the slowest attacks
>No archetypes or play styles, everyone plays the same
>Dial-a-combos because links are too hard for tekken babies

PLAY TEKKEN

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Naoto in blazblue

Do you actually think this is buffered because the title says so?

People want to be angry

GG isn't really that hard. Zato is a bitch and Venom is hard because of how many options you have at once, but a good portion of the cast have fairly short, easy to do BNBs.

Blazblue has some insanely hard combos/characters though, and Vatista from unist is a goddamn nightmare to learn.

No, its a shit game

Based

So you don't know jackshit about what you're talking about then. Your opinion won't count in any tekken matter unless you have at least 1k matches played.

Make a new Bushido Blade. That'll do it. We need more fighting games where you can cut someone to death in one or two blows. And where you can run away.

We need to make them more difficult and less accessible. Fucking noob scrubs stay the fuck out of my FGC.

Imagine being this wrong

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Take your meds scottish owl

>and Vatista from unist is a goddamn nightmare to learn.
It's the usual case between people who play Seth, Vatista, Hilda, and Yuzuriha.
At least in the NA scene, there's only 1 good Yuzuriha, a couple good Vatistas, maybe like 2 Hildas, and one Seth who sticks to commentating over competing

>Vatista
Interesting, I'm learning UNIST right now. Isn't Yuzu also supposed to be a nightmare?

>no mixups in Tekken
Somebody has never played against Lei it seems.

>When your game is so shallow some random literal who wins your world tour event button mashing with a joke furry character.

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Yuzuriha's skill ceiling and potential to confirm off anything and make nearly anything of her's safe is at the cost of an immense execution barrier. Vatista is tough but she's still a charge character so if you're used to those she's not "too" bad

not a tekkenfag
did this happen?

Vatista is a nightmare because of the negative edging needed.

At most, make all the special move commands the same. And give the games some decent single player and side modes.

Well yeah, that too. I definitely see more pro Vatistas than Yuzurihas, Hildas, and Seth though

Stop asking and start trying, fighting games were never ever hard to learn. I don’t know how many in depth tutorials we need to include in every new fighter now until people stop complaining about their own lack of patience and defeatist attitudes

Kind of? My locals have a damn good Yuzu player and he says Vatista is way fucking harder so I'm taking his word on that one.

Yeah Seth is hard. From Virginia to Georgia I only know of 1 good Seth player and he just dunks on literally everybody (the only games he plays that aren't completely free for him are Examu games and BBXT).

Hilda isn't really that tough, at least compared to the others, she's just kinda bad.

It did yes, the tears were delicious

Hilda's difficulty is overrated.

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>Bad
Well it's just so match-up dependent. She literally melts in the corner but if she can keep you out she'll make you want to rip your hair out.

Hey now, winning with bad characters is actually quite difficult.

Fursan player won with Panda at World Tour finals against the top 2 best players in the game Qudans and Knee.
It was insane how he fucked them up based on their unfamiliarity with Bears.

I never found tekken hard and because it has neutral guard and no chip you can, if you wanted to, ignore 3d movement and just defend against lows overheads and throws.
The problem with tekken now is that it has embraced juggles so much that rather juggles being a little mechanical mistake of a3d engine, it has just become the be all and end all of how to damage your opponent with no chance of getting harmed. Basically it IS the game now.
Add to that the trashy rage art shit they added with tekken 7, the franchise is dead.

Unist is just degenerate shitty brainlet melty stop talking about it

Eh, you're probably right.
People just don't like blocking to stick with her when they do fuck up I guess.

>P4U introduces shadow characters, sho, minazuki, KEN AND WOOF, and margaret

If only they didn't add those BS characters

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She's there with wald in the "Not tournament viable because some matchups are just so fucking garbage" club.

fight games is already easy, fool. especially in this day and age. there is just always going to be people better than your ass because they actually put effort in and try to get better by practicing and shit.

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Include hordes of bots at the bottom rungs so starting players don’t feel like they’re being oppressed by all of humanity.

Yep, it happened at TWT... then again at EVO japan. tekkenfags are still on suicide watch.

Tutorials that don't suck dick

I wonder if brkrdave is going to come back. I remember him cleaning house way too hard back when [st] came out and people imported the JP copies.
Watanabe the Wald god will be fun to see if he can dunk the NA "pros"

The fuck are you talking about? Fighting games have been making shit easier for a long while
>Tutorials that even teach you BnB
>MK shows you the fucking frame data for moves
>inputs are so lenient, you can 33 and get a DP
>hitstun so long, you can make a hotpocket between hits and still do the combo
>comeback mechanics everywhere
They even made a game for with single button specials but you fags still complained because the concept of blocking is elitist to you people.
youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw
Git Gud, you goddamned scrub

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Are there really no tekkenfags to respond to this

It’s not too bad but the baby trap shit like the full autocombos and the “hold a button to do moves” thing has gotta go. Game is alright otherwise, and fantastic as an entry point to the genre

dave apparently thinks the character is unplayable right now and I kinda agree.

Then again the 2 best players I have to go up against are an Eltnum and a Yuzu and FUCK BOTH THOSE MATCHUPS SO FUCKING MUCH.

MK11 isnt changing its meter to make meter management easier, its doing it to promote patience over brainlessly "building meter" which leads to another braindead meta/ game

How fucking retarded are you? A fighting game dumbing itself down for retards achieves literally nothing, the same retards still get owned and quit in a week because they are weak willed faggots that dont actually like the genre let alone want to be good at it

Go fucking kill yourself you retarded piece of shit, even if you had a hacked copy with optimal autocombos and one button specials youd still lose EVERY SINGLE TIME to anyone who can actually play the fucking game

They are more accessible than ever before. Gamers, the games industry, the fgc, and the world has just changed.

Gamers
>have a billion other games, online and off to play instead of practicing.
The industry
>now about monetization and online play.
The fgc
>now about hype, sponsorships, and us vs them, than just picking a cool fighter and playing it because YOU like it. The top players and talking heads REFUSE to call out shit games by big companies out of fear.

The world
>moves at a faster pace and there's more info. People used to play the ppl in their area. If someone was better than you elsewhere, you didn't know. Now, there's too much info. People wanna be like the best, but don't have time and have a billion other games.

Back in the old days, there were no tutorials. No online FGC telling you everything about he game and how to play. No "THIS GAME IS DEAD". You just played the game. If you liked it, you kept playing. You didn't stop because some fag pro told you the game is 'dead'. Didn't matter if there were no tutorials, didn't matter if some of the moves were hard or impossible. Didn't matter if some fucker you'll never meet didn't like the game. Didn't matter what everyone else was playing. The best game always came out on top.

Then the internet happened.

Why bother

U feels like such a mess to me sometimes, but it really did not deserve to get left off with different arcade/console versions like that.

@453624383
>Bloody Roar furry is this starved for attention that he's literally begging for (You)'s

If you can't win with a char that has godly neutral presence and unfuzzyable 50/50s that's on you.

>Not tournament viable
>EUnist tourneys are dominated by Wauhti
Really makes you think

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I won't disagree, he's so disadvantageous despite being so fun. I hope to see Watanabe put in some work at EVO.
My State is pretty free outside from Royalheart and I wrested control out beneath him but he did fight me with his Phonon instead of his Hilda 5 out of 6 times.

Overplayed your hand at #6, but not bad

We never did get an official statement on why we didn't get the newest patch stateside, and with Joker in smash, idk what the relationship is with Arc and Atlus

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A FUCKING PAKI

>online play
Gibz's GG tournaments are a fucking Potfest, that doesn't mean the character isn't mid tier at best.

The biggest hurdle to come over with fighting games is yourself. If you have trouble with something, practice. Still can’t do it? Keep practicing. Get destroyed in an online match by someone much better than you at the game? Don’t give up, practice and get better, learn from your loss.

You can do it user, keep trying! I believe in you!

I keep forgetting EU exists lel

They most likely don’t give two shits about p4u anymore because bbtag and p5 arena is planned anyway

Not sure anyone in NC has any chance of dethroning Dollar ATM. Dude's a goddamned menace.

Make a game that has

Parry + focus attack + burst + fadc + air dash + super jump + empty cancel + just defend + charge partioning + fuzzies + air to air high low mix up + tag in + trigger + super + ultra

Then have each of them togglable in lobbies.

Why would Joker in Smash affect their relationship with Arc? You know Atlus is owned by Sega right? Technically, the only people who have q say in their relationship is Sega.

I just hope they retool margaret/minazuki/ken if they ever return. Safe, combo-able mixups from half a screen away...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING

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it would be cool to have a game with several sets of system features organized in a moon system like melty

Its both funny and demoralizing seeing my best friend improve in fighting games. I have years of experience compared to him so even though he has been taught "properly" its extremely demoralizing for him to keep losing no matter what he does because the skill gap is so big in existing games. Hoping that MK11 will finally be the real access for him since its all neutral rather than an overhwleming amount of gimmicky robbery systems overlaid

Regardless Its almost laughable how good he is compared to the average mouthbreather that cries about special move inputs. Looking at the progression of him going from the input struggle phase to actual footsies and reads is somewhat unprecedented in terms of speed since most people fuck around with fighting games for ages before ever "learning" them. For him its almost the exact opposite and at this point he just needs a game that he really actually loves to play regardless of how good he is at it

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I am a Tekkenfag though?
He played Panda and the top players had inexperience with Panda.
It's just a testament to how balanced the game is ontop of how much matchups can matter.

Where in the fuck did I say "online"? Wau took Revolution three years in a row.

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Is EU good at all though?

"Accessibility" in videogame land is the "Diversity" of every other hobby or medium: A vague enough term that protects shitty rhetoric from being critiqued and countered and gives enough reason to implement bad ideas.

There's a fighting game where you only need to hit your opponent 5-6 times. There's a fighting game where all special attacks are hot keyed like in an MMO. Go play those if you need the most brain dead rules and mechanics to win. And then you will still lose, because no amount of gems, X-factors, Rage Arts and other babying is going to help you against a tournament player, or even your mild mannered arcade champ or online player; because they have access (haha) to the same things you do and will utilize them better than you do.

Do fighting games even still do the "Handicap" option at the vs. screen?

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>balanced
lolno its just a random button masher, the game is literally not deep enough to have any real balance.

Less mechanics, more nuance to the basics. It is why SF2 worked, the basics are easy to grasp and then it is learning how each tool can be used to it's full effectiveness. Partly though this was achieved on accident, and arguably some is kind of broken and shouldn't exist. But the game works.

SFV takes a load of mechanics, but makes them really dumbed down. The casual fag isn't pleased, the hardcorefag has nothing to stroke their dick to in training mode. Worst of both worlds. Either go full anime with a load of bullshit, or keep it basic and nuanced

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Don't cater to tourneyfags and give the game plenty of content and unlockables.

Then say that dumbass, there literally is an online tourney called EUnist.

oh boy pls be another YAYVIDEOGAMES pls pls

What kind of content and unlockables are we talking about here?

>It also doesn't help that neutral can be extremely different from one fighting game to the next

It isnt

The games themselves are obviously different but this mentality is simply the false idea of what the neutral is after years of pro players talking about it without even truly understanding it themselves

the neutral game is the game when nothing is happening. When the game is in neutral the only thing at play is awareness borne out of knowledge. If you know exactly what your opponent can do at X time in the neutral, you can consciously play around their options. Baiting out attacks to punish them, aka footsies is just one reactive/ mindgame aspect of the neutral game

Being "good" at neutral in any game means having the ultimate AWARENESS of the situation at all times. If you know exactly what CAN happen at all times, you can react or predict more effectively which leads to successfully outplaying the opponent in the neutral

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They are no "matchups" in tekken every character plays the same

there is a zeku version of this? /fgg/?

Bloody Roar is dead man, it's time to let it go

Says you, and you dont watch or learn or play Tekken so your opinion doesn't matter.

>tfw new to fighting games
>zero instinct for neutral or adapting to people's moves
I really hate this feeling of experience of failing and not knowing what I'm doing wrong. Is this the part that takes so long to learn?

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rip user

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>Season 4 does have a stronger neutral and decent game balance.
I haven't seen people saying that. In fact the majority opinion seems to be it is barely an improvement on S3.

Two EU players made it to top8 of CEOtaku

Tell me the gamplay simmilarities between Kazuya and King right now.

There is literally nothing to learn in tekken, its nothing but a shallow button masher.

>Harada:
>Tekken is not a complex game, you can play the game easily by button mashing, if it was complex it would not have sold as many copies as it did

>Saint:
>Street Fighter V is harder than tekken 7

>Rangchu:
>Just mash it out and get that win

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Lots of different SP modes outside of Arcade mode. As for unlockables, pretty much everything you can think of; Characters, costumes, modes, artwork.

It's already been out, it's called blazblu

Fuck off, I can’t begin to tell you how wrong you are. So many fighters in the last 5+ years have had in-depth tutorial that tech global mechanics and even character specific shit

You want to know the real reason why tutorials in fighting games aren’t working? No one’s fucking playing them, I bet even (you) haven’t played through a single modern fighter’s tutorial.

>can't be bothered to spend 20 minutes learning Ryu's inputs, allowing you to have access into playing 90% of fighting games and characters
>DERP GAME TO HARD, PLEASE DUMB DOWN SO I CAN BE PERSONALLY SATISFIED

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>allowing you to have access into playing 90% of fighting games and characters
this is so untrue and you obviously knew it when making the post, so why did you make it?

rip

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i mean learning how to perfectly do a quarter circle and dragon fist with ease brings you up above most people

it seems that most people (smashfags) problems with fighting games is that they can't even perform the simplest of inputs and act like its the game's fault to why they are to lazy to learn

>The same quote of Harada talking about the skill floor for the 100th time
>A player with literally 0 practice in a game with a completely different design
>A literal god winning out of fundamentals and the novelty of the rare matchup
RENT FREE every time, just look at this tread.

l cancel still has smaller frame windows than sfv beat it cuck

motions are easy, links are what's hard. or in anime games it's long fucking combos with stupid shit like having to intentionally whiff moves and shit

user, you got a stroke or something?

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Actually try playing it to a competent level.

Teach the player the character’s neutral game. No motion should be more complex than a QC, DP, charge or 360 + 1-2 l/m/h punch and/or kick.

This is what smellee babies actually believe

>360
I still remember Hakumen's 720 tight as fuck counter
how are you meant to do a reactive 720

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I swear to god those weird ass combos in BB that raise you up in the air and then let you fall and hit you like only 2 times while you're falling and they touch the ground continue the combo and shit are the work of the devil.

You can turn specials into 1 single button input and casuals will still rage.
youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

Hey OP, Instead of asking how to make fighting games more accessible, why do casuals even want to play fighting games in the first place?

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So Yea Forums, what fighting games do you actually play?

I mainly play Skullgirls but I enjoy playing things like Third Strike and Vampire Savior on Fightcade. I'm looking forward to the new Samurai Shodown, looks like a love letter to the older games and a revival for the series would be great.

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You need to be constantly churning it or get a read.

360 and charge are actually pretty hard for scrubs.

>why do casuals even want to play fighting games in the first place?
This is a good question. Why not just stick to what you play best instead of getting beat, getting frustrated, and quitting/demanding shit cater to you? If it dies, it dies it should be of no concern to you.

Did I mention that it also has to be buffered

I have over 2k matches on King (trough different instalments of the series), I also love GG, Slayer is a lot of fun. I'm hyped up for the Power Rangers game after yesterday's stream, and also hope that SamSho is actually good.

is it possible to git gud using a keyboard or should i get an arcade joystick?

Depends what you mean by "casuals".

Waifufags are some of the most notorious people who try to "play" fighting game. They'll see characters like Juri/Angel/Baiken, jerk off to them, and then then try playing them with no understanding of the game only to get assblasted that they can't play their waifu.

By making them free to play instead of selling each character at 10 dollars a fucking piece

A keyboard is simmilar to a hitbox, but it requires practice. Also sticks aren't really necessary, a lot of high level players simply stick to pads.

Even the most recent smash game has TWO characters that have a QCF, QCB and Z-motion as a vital part of their gameplay. There really isn't an excuse anymore.

KoF seems like a cool series but breaking into it as an American feels hard. I've tried playing KoF98 on fightcade but am always met with some retards insulting me in taco ruins.
I mean, people will use crazy controllers just to show off. I have steering wheels, Guitar Hero guitars, and other bizarre shit used. Still, a keyboard is not a good way to play fighters. A lot of people use a DS4 nowadays, though if you're interested in older titles learning with a stick is probably for the best.

>waifuposter
>mostly end up playing grapplers
>pretty ass at everything I play but don't get mad enough to quit
Eh, that's life.

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You can "get good" using any controller, even objectively shitty ones. May be less convenient to use but it's really just preference.

Game devs don't seem to understand that casuals will buy the game, play for a weekend, get destroyed online and then never play again.

All that effort trying to pander to them and pissing the tourney tryhards when it's all for naught. Just give them a shiny cinematic story mode and unlockable shit. That's all they want.

There's no need to dumb down gameplay. Don't bother trying to make them go full esport, it's not gonna happen.

Aight I'll just stop blaming the keyboard for me not executing shit properly then, cheers.

>memorizing

This shits so tiring

>motions are easy,
The problem isn't the motion themselves, it's invmcorporating them. I can perform a hcb/hcf input easily, but when needing to do one halfway through a combo it'll take some practice to get the muscle memory before I can do it consistently.

>Darkstalkers is Vampire Savior everywhere else

Thank you user, playing this tonight.

What are skullgirls numerous problems?

I mean, you're better then 99% of the waifufags. I only look down on waifufags with fighters since only a small fraction of them actually play the genre, an even smaller fraction not being total scrubs. I

Depending if your keyboard has ghosting or not, you might actually be right somewhat.

If you're keyboard is some cheap shit then it'll have ghosting (if you press more than 5 or so keys at once, your keyboard won't register the inputs past the first 5 keys pressed)

Even with ghosting it's not impossible to use, again just less convenient and something to keep in mind if you're using a ghosting keyboard

money, numbers
I want to try fightcade with shit like Darkstalkers, outside of having to get used to guys who played since the 90's, is it easy to just set up an account and get a decent amount of matches?
no real need.

If more story modes were basically just beat em ups, I think that would shut a lot of people up.

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SG is my main game. Never got so into a fighting game and now it’s hard to get into others. I liked kof14 though and am looking forward to the inevitable 15 + Samsho.

I’d kill for a good Street fighter game

Keyboard is perfectly fine for fighting games if it doesn't have ghosting issues (if it does, some multiple key presses might not register properly). Using spacebar (or any other key that's comfortable to hit with the thumb of either of your hands) for up direction is often recommended, though it depends what kind of motions the game requires whether it matters. There's no lagless way to use a keyboard with consoles however, but that's what hitboxes are for. Otherwise keyboard is basically a cheap hitbox.

The meme that keyboards are not good for fighting games comes from simple prejudice as that wasn't the controller traditionally used because fighting games used to be played mostly on consoles and in the arcades rather than on PC.

Hahaha, I didn't mean that King

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Yeah, most people just refer to that title since it makes it easier to understand. Similar to Street Fighter with Claw/Boxer/Dictator some US names are different so characters may be called by a term ("Fish" for Rikuo/Aulbath") or their Japanese name (everyone just calls BB Hood "Bulleta" and Hsien-Ko "Lei-Lei")

Fuck off furfag

It's not that all concession are bad, but ones that hurt the core of the game don't help. Ultimately a game with appealing gameplay will survive in some form, there are plenty of games that get support for years despite a relatively niche audiences. Stuff like making inputs a bit easier hasn't hurt (though some take it too far and make miss imputing easier), meanwhile stripping a characters moveset down and removing the more advanced aspects of their tools doesn't do anything for the game.

Basically, a casual will feel happy if they can control the game. This doesn't mean giving them all the tech for free with no effort. Tekken does this well, any idiot can mash about to get some moves out and be blissfully unaware of taunt jet uppers.

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Yeah but it depends on the game. Third Strike and KoF98 are pretty popular with at least 60 people at most times. Some other games like ST, MvC1, and Jojo aren't as big but will typically have a few people online. For more obscure games you might need to look into discord sadly.
Sorry, I saw "King" and instantly thought you meant a title and not a character.

I kinda hate that "waifu" has pretty much become the shorthand for "girl that makes my pp hard" but that's not gonna discourage me from admitting I like looking at pretty girls a lot. Just a shame the salt overwhelms so many others and prevents them from playing. Maybe I'm just insane, but win or lose most fighters keep me engaged enough to get back up.

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Touch of death combos.

MvC2 was a game that heavily appealed to casuals without dumbing down anything. Why don't more games learn from it?

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This really only happens I feel in a 1v3 where the simgle character will be much stronger. Typically I see at least two or three combos before a character dies when people play with equal characters.

not that guy but probably
>lack of characters (but not really. there's enough but only like a dozen or so, while other, bigger fighting games have 20+, and then we get to roster sizes for tag fighters like MvC, which is it's own size category entirely)
>lack of assist options (again, compared to MvC)
>they 'censored' a pantyshot that one time (but also added more)
>
i can't really think of anything else, meme options included; but then again i am a noob when it comes to FG's so i don't know a lot. maybe the 6+assist button gameplay is a problem for some? i think it opens options while allowing for familiar (to me) gatling combos, but for people familiar with MvC's 4+assist buttons it might be tough to get

Smash is the only good fighting game because the rest rely on arbitrarily complex inputs that often don’t even make any sense in relation to the given action you’ll perform in-game

Standardizing the controls for every character and ditching retarded “raising the skill floor is inherently good” design philosophy puts Smash above every other fighter right off the bat

Because Disney owns the mahvel license now.

One big thing people like to bring up when it comes to anime fighters is that they love how they play but just can't stand the feeling of needing to memorize all these ling combos before they feel like they even have a chance.

The other big issue is fgc turning people away by constantly saying how netplay is garbage. Yes it's pretty bad depending but putting effort into getting a decent online community outside of just asking on a specific discord would be a huge help.

kill every good player and let only stupid normie fucks play them

random crits are in melty but it's usually only like 50-100 more damage in a game where the health bars are 10k~

not a fighting game

Because games are made with the idea of maximising reach. Most of the fun stuff in MvC2 was certainly not intended, it would get patched out in a week if it were new. We'd probably have never got to the real MvC2 if it were released today, and the community wouldn't be there.

Too many people go into games with the idea that it will get patched into what they want, rather than accepting what a game is or leaving. The idea has become a dev will pander to your needs, rather than a creative person will try and make some of their interesting ideas work and it finds an audience. Trying to appease everyone leads to blandness.

The only smash with a good comp scene before ultimate was melee, which had inputs so precise and fast people destroy their hands playing. I agree that smash is a fighting game and that simplicity of inputs is a strength but you gotta face facts man.

If playerbase were the only reasoning why a game gets into EVO, we'd be seeing Melee in again.

Precise and fast is fine, arbitrarily complicated is not

>lack of assist options
>in a game where you can make an assist out of damn near every move in a character's moveset
I'll give you like 14 characters in a tag fighter making it feel way smaller than it is for a new ip, but what the shit is that second one?

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Smash isn't even a fighting game, and it's either the autistic glitched one that needs you to use a specially malfunctioning controler, or extremely simple one with barebones mechanics and ALWAYS poor balance.

To be fair MvC2 is a game that actually could benefit greatly from patches. I agree with you that in general people are quick to claim something needs to be "patched" but in the case of MvC2 I think it's justified.

melee is arbitrarily complicated as fuck

>trash bros
>fighting game

>>in a game where you can make an assist out of damn near every move in a character's moveset
wait what
how?
does the tutorial teach of this?
was i really using only 10% of my true potential all this time?

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While 14 is small I think it's acceptable as every character in SG is viable. Having 50 characters doesn't mean much when 8 are viable. SG is one of the few games where every character sees play even at a high level if play which I think is pretty amazing.
When you choose a character you can select to make a custom assist. Doimg so you can then perform the move you want and it'll be the character'sassist. Obviously there are some restrictions but generally yes, any move you want.

Next to the 2 given ones for every character there should be an option to put a "custom" input in. You can do damn near anything but supers and air special moves from what I remember.

>Ultimately a game with appealing gameplay will survive in some form,
You'd have to define "survive" in the FGC context, because according to the FGC, King of Fighters, Skullgirls, BB and GG are all dead or near death due to not pulling Tekken or DBFZ numbers. Hell, some people say DBFZ is dead. So define "survive".

Good gameplay doesn't mean shit to the greater FGC anymore. It's all about legacy, graphics, and personalities. Name one big game that doesn't have famous fg personalities around it, but has good gameplay.

>Basically, a casual will feel happy if they can control the game.
Yes, but more importantly, a casual will feel happy if the game is hype and he can impress his friends with it. A casual will not play Dive Kick. A casual will play SF (legacy and hype) and Mortal Kombat. The latter of which they almost completely abandoned when it had shitty graphics and no hype (3D era).

Casuals also used to flock to Tekken. But that was before the internet FGC, and when Tekken's used to have the best graphics (where MK is right now). Seeing a pattern yet.

Granblue Fantasy Versus is going to save the FGC. It will be everything SFV wasn't.

It's not even bait. He's just saying Smash is more difficult than Mario Party. The replies are due to

I'd love buffs for lower-tier characters in MvC2 but definitely not nerfs. The problem is that modern devs are completely nerf-happy.

I said "feel." 12 to 14 is later SF2 numbers and I think that should be fine to shoot for in a new IP, especially one drawn like SG, but being able to select up to 3 to select up to 3 characters at a time can make it still feel small.

>A casual will not play Dive Kick
I feel like "lol dude this is so random xddd" factor makes it appealing to them. Which is a good thing really, Dive Kick is not a bad game to begin the genre with as silly as it is.

Anyone play that Fantasy Strike game? Did it turn out actually being a decent introduction game?

The difficulty in fighting games isnt execution, or complicated inputs. Technical limitations aside (bad netcode, bad controls), the difficulty is literally other people playing, and having to face your own limitations. Accepting that you suck is the hardest thing a person can do, and that is why fighting games will always be niche. You do not "git gud" at fighting games by learning combos, or learning to consistently pull off special moves, though consistancy helps, you get good by letting go of your personal limitations.

Fighting games are the Gym of vidya, once you realize that it's okay to be bad at the start, you can travel the road of self improvement.

Fighting games will never be "accessible" because fighting players refuse to adopt intuitive controls and movesets that have to be memorized. There's no reason to have every character use moves that are all executed in different ways.

People want to play a game without having to memorize every damn thing about it. It's a needless barrier when you can raise the skill ceiling in other ways.

>You'd have to define "survive" in the FGC context,
Well people are homosexuals about stuff, but the reality is you can get games and that is all that matters. Rest is white noise, people saying T7 was dead hasn't stopped it. They spammed about money for weeks, then nothing changed. Everyone kept playing cause they liked doing that. In the case of DB, well people realised maybe the core of the game is compromised.

The only people who that means anything to is those who don't actually play. We put too much stake in internet talk.

>Casuals also used to flock to Tekken.
Judging off sales they still do, and the game doesn't even have good content for casuals. The real problem with casual players is branding, the respond very strongly to it and getting them on a new one is hard. Especially without a huge marketing budget.

>There's no reason to have every character use moves that are all executed in different ways.
You're right, every character should play the same and everyone should have the same moves that fulfill the same purposes.

This how retarded you sound.

It's alright, but good luck getting anyone to like a game with a full on fat fetish fursona as an actual character.

The moment braindead casuals like you realize there are gameplay-related reasons to have distinct inputs for each special fighting games will become king again.

Characters don't need the same moves, but they can be accessible by having each character use the same controls.

You’re strawmanning him super hard

not him but you can just tell when a game is alive, fighting games on a whole are just so niche/ dead that people are desperately counting numbers that run in the thousands

its like asking what shooters are "alive", you just have the perception that every single day people want to play their X shit game of choice and do it without even knowing or caring about the pro scenes. The only thing a fighting game needs to achieve this is
a) be big enough to sell in the first place (MK, tekken, SF, marvel)
b) be fun enough that people literally just want to keep playing because they love the game

if people like the game so much they just literally want to play it regardless of whatever surrounds it your game is most likely going to stay alive forever after grabbing the initial audience. The majority of fighting games today are simply trying their hardest to be anti fun and as sanitary as possible (while usually failing) so it doesnt please any crowd properly

Players think they want the most perfect and balanced game imaginable but in reality they just want something that they cant put down because its addictive and feels good to play. If the game is easy enough to get into, the only "problem" is going to be motivating people to keep playing if they are just losing and losing again. Personally I prefer to play tons of sets with people off of my friends list and I think the games themselves should advertize finding proper training partners as much more fun and effective than trying to endlessly grind the sweaty performance modes like ranked before you can hold your own at all

Well that's a shame to hear. I didn't have any interestyself but I do think the idea of "beginner" focused fighting games can be helpful.

...can't stand the feeling of needing to memorize all these ling combos before they feel like they even have a chance.
A chance against who, though?! None of them are going to tournaments so who are they supposedly not good enough to beat? Other onliners? Why not just play offline with friends? Truth is, they don't wanna play the game. That's all it is.

>The other big issue is fgc turning people away by constantly saying how netplay is garbage.
Another excuse. Vanilla SFIV sold 3 and a half million copies. Less than half of them played online. MK9 and X had shit netplay. Sold more than every other fg at the time. Netplay is an excuse.

oh shut up. there's no way you actually played the game and didn't know about that, you just wanted to talk shit

If you were even halfway decent at fightan you could beat 99% of the players with basic fireball/anti-air gameplay.

I remember during the testing I only came up against one guy who could actually beat me. He was using the tornado guy's ability that pushes you around the stage and buffs his projectiles and I didn't know how to counter him.

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This should completely vary by game to game. If the whole appeal of your game is honesty and skill, you should nerf things that were completely retarded unintentionally. In explosive kusoge games where the main attraction should be how retarded the game is, they should always just buff the other characters instead of bringing the brokenness down

The specials and supers are executed with only the press of a button but they consume chi/stamina. There. I just saved your trash video game genre.

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Make an interesting story mode, where the missions force the player to learn concepts of the game.
That's literally it.
But that would mean risking a higher budget building a story mode actually worth playing. Which no one wants to do.

It did dumb down a few things though. It went from 6 buttons to 4, with 2 extra buttons for assists. This was done for good reasons but you can argue this is sitll "dumbing things down"

>There. I just saved your trash video game genre.
Go back to your assfaggots retard.

>there's no way you actually played the game and didn't know about that
bitch i'll fite you. there exist people who only play 1 character and don't bother with assists because beowulf is just that good

>The wall people reach is almost always learning neutral

Hell no, nearly every game incorporates the same concepts as neutral in fighting games do. The awareness and spacing you generally need to have in FGs are the same as you'll come to rely on in Dark Souls for instance, the only difference being that in fighting games you'll get mad because you're losing to a real person. Besides you'll never learn something as nuanced as FG neutral by reading, and you shouldn't focus on learning neutral to begin with, it'll come naturally as you play and become more knowledgeable.

Street Fighter, but with cute anime girls. Combos last 5-10s at most. QCF/B, (R)DP, Charge and double QCs are the only motions. Ranking system is based on the % of the winner. Try to advertise to more than just Americans, make the game run at 60fps on whatever computers the chinese or BRs can play on even if it means N64-era graphics. Have a roster between the size of Smash 64 and 3rd strike no larger no smaller.

>People want to play a game without having to memorize every damn thing about it. It's a needless barrier when you can raise the skill ceiling in other ways.

Sales and popularity say otherwise. Even when you remove execution shit like league is doing so much better than battlerite.

He already destroyed your argument you fucking retard

I watched a combo video which got me into fighting games that's no longer on youtube rip

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We don't.
Fuck off.

>Ranking system is based on the % of the winner
what the fuck are you talking about that's horrible

>Try to advertise to more than just Americans
the rest of the world pretty much can't be fucked to play a game that doesn't already have massive legacy arcade roots

still, every couple of years a game exactly like that shows up, and nobody gives a fuck. koihime enbu is exactly like that and it still isn't fun to play. it's really fucking hard to come up with a successful new fighting game.

Play. Another. Genre.

You fucking kids. Everything isn't for everyone.

This. I spent years looking for a game like marvel nemesis to play with my younger brothers, and they hated all of them. When I finally asked what they liked about the game, it was literally just the brand.

I've stopped looking for games to play with them.

Great post.

As someone who knows nothing about GG why is Faust so comically large? Is he normally like that?

>Street Fighter, but with cute anime girls. Combos last 5-10s at most. QCF/B, (R)DP, Charge and double QCs are the only motions. Ranking system is based on the % of the winner. Try to advertise to more than just Americans, make the game run at 60fps on whatever computers the chinese or BRs can play on even if it means N64-era graphics. Have a roster between the size of Smash 64 and 3rd strike no larger no smaller.
Why aren't you playing Under Night then, faggot?

>Players think they want the most perfect and balanced game imaginable but in reality they just want something that they cant put down because its addictive and feels good to play
This. SFV is probably one of the most balanced SFs but it has achieved it in the most sterile way possible. Anyone could win, but that is because nearly all the unique tools have been reduced to working towards a similar goal of in your face mix up. The better characters are just better at doing that almost invalidating the lower tiers. Playing a shoto that isn't Akuma is just a handicap in SFV.

I've been learning a bit about SamShoVS lately and what is interesting is how the same basic stuff can make characters very different. In this game you have a super meter, get this full and you can do a super or rage burst. Rage burst powers you up a load but when it is gone so is your super bad. Alternatively you can spend super bar to make it so a slowdown move can be activated earlier and for longer. Depending on your character you will probably favour one of these 3 options but have the choice to go for each one. Some will even have specific tech. When I learnt about this it really set in how it is way more interesting to have characters take advantage of the same tools differently, rather than have characters who use different tools for the same ends.

Because he doesn't actually care about fighting games, he just wants cute girls so he can jerk off to the porn since he's a normalfag.

>all special attacks cost meter
boy I love being punished for anti-airing and controlling space

ye

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I've got some cash to burn, I'm mostly a pad player, is the Xbox elite worth it for PC fighting games?

yeah he's like 9ft tall but his default posture is hunched down so you don't really notice. He's only got one or two moves that he stands upright for

Weird. I've never watched too much GG gameplay but this is like the first time I've noticed that.

Currently using this

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Honestly it didn't even fill the beginner niche too well. It just removed inputs and added auras based on your state. It is fun, since it takes inspiration from many fighters, (one of the characters is built around a knockoff dandy step, complete with pilebunker.) But divekick is still the best learning tool.

get a fighting commander

Street Fighter was dumbed down with links bieng easier and combos being shorter.
DBFZ is accessible.
Smash Ultimate is the most popular fighting game.
People just need to really concentrate on having a proper understanding of the games they're trying to play well and what's effective and they would probably see a lot better results.

I think UNIST is easier than GG, though neither is especially difficult. They both have some tough characters, but the universal mechanics in UNIST are straightforward, where in GG you get some stuff that's a lot harder to handle like jump installs, reverse beat makes it so just pressing buttons will get you somewhere, and GG has gatlings for most characters so its similar there, but you still can't go from any normal into any other normal like you can in UNIST, and the most complex motions in UNIST are just half circles, GG doesn't have really complex motions either, but just having 632146 be the common motion for overdrives makes it a bit tougher on execution. I feel like someone would have an easier time picking up UNIST and playing it at a basic level than they would with GG.

Ah yeah I have 2 actually. The original PS4 model and

What if you dont like 3s? I know a lot of people who hate it.

You could try a fightstick if you've never had one. I bought a piece of shit 360 stick preowned and then just put fresh buttons in it. Cost me barely £60

Switch execution requirements from complicated stick motions, which are hard to learn because they give players little feedback on what they did wrong, to precisely timed button presses. The ease of stick motions also varies a lot more between different types of controllers.

Move away from long combos and blockstrings to a stronger neutral focus, which is more interesting anyway.

Melee (and arguably 64) are legitimately very technically demanding. The games after them have pretty low execution requirements though.

is that you merlock

UNIST definitely feels easier to pick up it can get a little daunting with how long some combos can be depending on where you are looking for BnB combos

We don't. Not everything needs to be.

Does sfv still doesnt have meterless reversals? That game somehow justified unga as the only way to play effectively with 95% of the cast.

UNI also has 7 frame input buffer on almost everything, crossup protection, instant overhead protection, 8 frames of throw protection after wakeup, a dash macro, shield is tied to a button with a 20 frame active time instead of the roughly 5 frame window of instant blocks, a dash macro as well as only 4 buttons.

It's a lot easier but still remains a lot of depth unlike current arcsys games.

It's already been done, the issue with fighting games is that people don't like admitting they're the one at fault, they want to blame someone else, people don't want to improve and get better themselves, they want things handed to them

I'd say GG has plenty of depth to it, but I wasn't speaking to the depth of either game, just that UNIST is more accessible.

Make some game maker 3rd strike jerk off meme fest. Every character is now as good as 3S Dudley/Urien/Ryu/Yang/Oro

>Low execution requirements
>When being slow by literally one frame can lose you the game
youtu.be/KBvGMW0DdPc

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are you one of those ''Dont fix it ADAPT'' apologist faggots that have turned the FGC into the shitshow it is today?

how about admitting that the maybe you dont suck but the game does (not mvc2 but in general)?

>samsho v special
Based
You don't need meter to rage explode by the way

>how do we make a game that is a direct contest against another player easier?
At some point, gamers are going to want the fucking game to fight for them.
It is you against someone else, if they are beating you it's probably because they are better, not because the game isn't in your favor.

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But Evo Japan wasn't won by a furry.

To be fair to rake in big numbers while ignoring retention, you can just make a licensed fighter of any popular IP, regardless of complexity
Works with Naruto and Gundam with arena fighters, MvC is self explanatory and Fighterz got a huge boost due to being DB despite simplification or being an anime fighter compared to other games like Budokai Tenkaichi, XV or Budokai 3.
Don't know how well sales wise other ones like BBTAG, TvC, SFxT, Jojo Heritage for the future or All Stars Battle did to say anything about that though.

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gitgud

honestly it's easy. depending on the game the nuances might vary but in most of them
>you should block low by default since overheads are slow and/or have tells
>you can chain weak moves into strong moves into special moves into super moves
>different characters have different moves and with them come different gameplans on how they want to win
>the above breaks all characters into 3~4 categories
>>rushdown: get in, deal lotta damage, don't let the enemy get hold of themselves and retaliate. usually are weak healthwise but are fast when it comes to their moves.
>>heavy/grappler: slow, big, strong, punchy. they win by making you afraid of one move, thus forcing you right into the range of a different move, making you afraid of the second one, and repeat ad infinitum
>>zoner: fights at long range with metric fuckloads of projectiles. will force you to learn to neutral jump or block, only to then anti-air you when you do jump or mix you up when you block.
>>gimmick/special: the rest that don't fit. rare but they do happen. have their own donut steel way of making sure they win that isn't just one of the above three but in a more sideways way.
above all: practice and dont be afraid to ask your opponent for advice. usually if you're getting hit by 'that one thing', you might've just forgotten the counter to that one thing, so you gotta experiment with the fundamentals you may or may not still remember.

>Is this the part that takes so long to learn?
according to studies, dedicating a solid 20 hours of 120% effort helps you overcome this newbie barrier after which the difficulty curve is more horizontal, but i'm not an expert on that. here's a good video on it tho: youtube.com/watch?v=A0MXyJxa6Ik

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You don't really need to, complicated games are fine since casuals are just going to mash through the singleplayer regardless of how accessible the mechanics are.
Accessibility isn't inherently a bad thing, but it's easy to go too far. It's much harder to make a good, interesting simple game that manages to be both easy to pick up and worth putting time into than it is to make one that has a bit of a barrier to entry but is great once you get over it.
them's fightin' herds is the best example of an "entry level" fighter that doesn't sacrifice too much of things like character uniqueness and player expression