Subtly ruins every modern RPG game

I can't think of the last RPG I genuinely enjoyed. And I mean real RPGs, not action games with perk systems masquerading as RPGs like Witcher 3 and Dragon Age

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>Name a better alternative.

make it toggleable with a key.

you can explore, and if you really want to progress do a quick check if you're on the right track.

jesus christ it's not that hard to figure out you fucking moron.

>NPC gives you directions
>Directions are written clearly in your diary
Wow, so hard.

worked fine in Morrowind but players had brains back then

Bethesda tried that with Morrowind.
It sucked. The man hours involved were not worth the effort.

using mods to remove the compass is the best improvement you can make to your skyrim experience.

#immersion

Morrowind. Spells and talking to NPCs is enough, you don't even need a precise map.

So how Bethesda does it?

morrowind was a lot smaller

>turns of minimap/compass
Boy I sure do like getting lost, missing my turns, and having to pause the game every 10 seconds to figure out where to go next.

Why does Skyrim get shit for this when Oblivion had a compass and quest markers too?

Not really as there are barely any quest descriptions.

>Name a better alternative
No, that's the game designer's job.

Not really, if you're not a retard it's pretty easy to navigate with the journal in Morrowind, and usually if you're looking for a specific place/person you can ask guards or citizens

>unga bunga if it has action oriented combat it not rpg cause grog no push button good

And it's still was possible to get lost since 90% of the surrounding area was covered with a thick fog.

So toggle it off? This is already an option. Why are you complaining again?

This is shooting yourself in the foot. The problem is that without the compass you cannot do quests. You are given no directions; thus, without toggling it or reading references somewhere, you will never know where to go.

With that journal?
Found the user that never played Morrowind but claims he did.

Not subtly, its brutally ruined RPG experience.

>Name a better alternative.
As there was no need for it in the first place, there is no need for a alternative.
>It can certainly be improved but those that want it removed root and branch are morons.
Yes, being ignorant you already gave away with the first segment.

>subtly ruins your mother

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And it's still the best Elder Scrolls game ever made.

What if they are happy with the quest marker?

I liked the Metro Exodus map/journal.

It's immersive.

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Then Yea Forums will continue to say the game is shit. Although they'd probably do that anyway

>RPG game

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With NPCs telling you the land marks and you going and finding the land marks

The journal
Did anyone here actually play the game?

And now you are lost because your dont have any other source of informatoion about location.

Don't remove the pointers. Make it so that you have to ask for PRECISE directions every time if you want it to appear, making every NPC out there think that you're dimwitted and voice the directions in such manner.

build tall, instantly recognizable landmarks. light vegetation so you can see the horizon in most places. make roads clearly visible on the map, oblivion's map did this the best even though there were quest markers in that game. and of course, detailed directions in the journal, not sure why they abandoned this because for the most part they did it quite well in morrowind.

>Have compass that is just an actual compass without any gps markers. Have a map that's just a map and doesn't magically show your current location.

Is gothic the only game that does this?

nope 3D markers did

The fuck are you talking about?

Ok

Signs. Along with roads, paths and a traditional map.

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Skyrim is better.

Try Underrail.

If you played the game you would know.

But writing a few sentences is so much harder than plunking down a quick objective marker! You have to know where NPCs and locations are relative to one another, I mean it's basically impossible.

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i guess highlighting every single point of interest is overboard

but, usually, it only points the general direction you should go
as a 1-dimensional line, it cant actually tell you how to get to your destination, alternate less obvious paths, or potential dangers
a compass with markers can actually be a very useful quality of life improvement without breaking the game simply by restricting what it can or cant show you at any time

Skyrim isnt an rpg, it doesnt even have half the fun mechanics that made Morrowind great.

> There was no need
Well except the written directions were tedious when they were right and infuriating when they were wrong.

Other than that maybe you have a point.

Part of the reason why it's the best is because it doesn't have ridiculous handholding shit like waypoints and fast travel. It actually felt like the RPG Skyrim tries to be but fails. Casuals and normies need to fuck off for good.

>reddit spacing
>retarded
>incorrect opinions
whew

old good
new bad

I did, i've always called it the Journal and will continue to. You're a dumb cunt with a chip on your shoulder

NPC detected

i found the journal immersive as fuck just like everything else in morrowind except the atrocious combat and movement

1. Have a map.
2. Have a compass.
3. Have an option for compass markers or no compass markers (including player location): if you turn them off then you get doubled experience and loot quality / quantity.
4. Map markers have to remain for practical reasons; I mean the entire point of a map is so that people can mark stuff down on it with a pen.

Skyrim itself has a better alternative with mods, you can remove quest markers and get a mod that makes quest descriptions very detailed and mention geographic stuff like it should be, it doesn't fix the world itself not having many points of interest to gather your bearings but it's already a huge improvement.

I like how everyone in Morrowind shat themselves while walking

youtu.be/3bUYx8h8TwA

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optimize the game properly so you can have long draw distance and actually feel like you're exploring a real environment and not checkmarking tasks from a list.

>I couldn't do it so nobody can!!!
Grow a fucking brain dude

There's nothing inherently wrong with location markers, I do think most games put the range way too wide, like I'd only mark it on entering the location, maybe even the center of it if it's not a cave. On the other hand, quest markers are 100% shit unless the dude you're talking to is a cartographer or explorer or something and well versed in marking maps.

How cool would it be if instead of just getting markers you got vague directions from people, and then if your speech was high enough you could explain it to a cartographer to get a circle on the map, and then in that area you could talk to locals or a ranger who could pinpoint the location?

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Breath of the Wild did it perfectly.

Underrail and Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Alternatively, Breath of the Wild is not an RPG but captures that feel in an open world game better than any RPG I've played since Morrowind.

>subtly

New good
Old bad

1. Divide big map into smaller sections, for example each city has a district.
2. Landmarks
3. Directions
The end result should be something like "There's a cat selling moon sugar near Falkreath, follow the road to the north until you see a mill, from there go east until you see a cave with a khajiit flag. That's where the furry niggers are hiding, bring me their tails, I'm making a rug"

>not so subtly ruins your open world

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So there is a mod that has written directions for every radient quest?
That would entail directions from every location on the map to every other location on the map
Doubt

Xenoblade X is 100% uniquely designed with no two areas looking the same despite the massive size of the world.

I believe it also didn't have quest markers.

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It’s the most recent.

Skyrim:
>Objective: Find the thing
>Objective marker points to another linear draugr barrow. When you get there the thing is 3 meters away from you, requires no exploration because there's a great big indicator on it

Morrowind:
>Journal: Some altmer told me to go to look for the thing behind The Gay Kwama. Some guy said that tavern is in such-and-such town in the foreign quarter.
>Ask around for more info for 5 minutes
>We make a special trip, just for you
>Look around for 5 minutes before finding the thing

Second is objectively more immersive.

Gotta fill that gigantic continent with shit to do

>Alternatively, Breath of the Wild is not an RPG but captures that feel in an open world game better than any RPG I've played since Morrowind.
its actually a game you can play completely without a minimap

people giving directions almost always use existing, prominent, landmarks for direction
and you can spot places of interest on your own from tall towers and mark them out for your own pleasure

roads also connect most important places, with inns having people who point out landmarks are always located on that road
so you can get a good idea of where to go by following roads and talking to people along it

Sounds tedious from a gameplay perspective, considering the scale of modern open world games

>WORDS WORDS WORDS

Nobody wants to read a fucking book when they play a video game, not even in RPGs.

the point of a map is to plan your route, since it should be labelled the same way as it is in real life on signs. if the map matches the signage, you don't need to mark anything you can just memorize the route. like when you read a road map, if you've ever done that.

Just play Diablo you nigger.

Exactly! That's why you never see any fucking books in RPGs!

agreed, the horseshoe theory ruined every civil discourse about modern RPG discussions

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It does change some radiant quests that didn't even have the location name in the description but there's only so much you can do with those, but it's not like anyone cares about radiant quests to begin with.

What you really need is an ingame map that you can draw/write/scribble on along with NPCs that give you directions based on geographic and landmark features. Of course that would probably require game designers to actually think about how the world is laid out and not just operate on fantasy cliches and rule of cool, but there you have it.

muh immurshun

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I don’t know of a way they could make that interesting.

too hard for your average playerbase. Game are no longer about thinking, if so you play puzzle games, games nowadays are just like a rollercoaster ride

In-journal notes were definitely something I missed from Morrowind (though I can't remember if that was a mod or not). Nowadays I have to keep notes on separate pen and paper.

IIRC LoZ: Phantom Hourglass let you write on your map, which was fantastic for me.

video games are just checklists now anyway.

False.
Smaller in lenght but bigger in density of contents and fun.

Anyone who says "just turn it off" is a retard. The games are made with the compass in mind, which means NPCs don't give you directions, and overworlds don't have landmarks to help you. Devs just need to stop doing that shit at all, not just give an option as an afterthought.

role playing

Simply give players a more immersive alternative by making them find the information required. NPCs trying their best to give directions, or redirecting you to someone who might know is obvious, but reading books, signposts, etc and just any form of information that might help the player, even some subtle landmarks. Even a wide circle marker that just highlights a general location that shrinks with more information you have, while never being exactly where you need to go is better than pinpoint GPS tracking.

The real quest markers were the friends we made along the way

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If it is objective the show your math as it were.
The first is more enjoyable as it bypasses the tedium of the latter.
Subjectively the former is better.

If you are willing to accept a certain amount of tedium in service of immersion good on you.
I am less tolerant of it.

lmao upboated

give me gold, cheap cunt

That’s countless extra voice actor hours that barely add any substance/content to the game aside of pleasing a minority of autists. Keep in mind Bethesda likes every NPC line to be voiced. I understand where you coming from, but from their perspective it’s just a waste.

i don't understand why someone would play and open world game if they didn't enjoy exploration

When you get a bit older you will find out that is all they always are.

*joins khajiits*
nuthin fursonnel, kiddo

the map in this screenshot was made for purly made for the gameplay trailer, in the release version it really only showed the real size

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Miasmata
You need to triangulate your location by finding a couple of landmarks before you can tell where you are at the moment.

Guys
You should have a look at this game

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>*Burp*
>*Bites into burger*
>Reading?
>*Takes another bite*
>I don't wan' no readin' in muh vidya
>*Takes another bite*
>Y'see I don' read so good
>*Burp*
>If I wan' read sumthin', i'd go to one of dem book stores or sumthin'
>*Bites*

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I never understood how the quest marker affacts exploration.
You know you can just go explore correct?
You don't need to be told "Here is a quest you now begin the exploration phase we have implemented"

tldr
Just go fucking explore.

Not him, but
Skyrim
Objective (a)
Objective marker (b)
no exploration (0)
a×b×0 = 0

Morrowind
Journal clues (c)
NPC conversation clues (d)
Exploration trip (1)
Exploration at arrival (1)
c×d×1×1 = cd1
cd1 > 0
objectively

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You're dumb, then.

You need a standardized formula.
You also do not account for important variables.

I don't need the game to hold my hand and tell me when it is the time to explore.
So I have that going for me.

>Americans care about gameplay
>Irrelevant foreigners (non-Americans) are part of the "games are art" crowd

Based. Go choke on a muslim's dick.

I love Miasmata but mapping is too much of a gameplay mechanic and is basically the game's core loop, it doesn't work in a game that isn't like it.

>Subtly

Its not subtle, gamer is the stupidest demography in society. Just look at the praises for the Witcher 3.

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>Americans care about gameplay
No Americans care about selling products you deluded fool, they’ll shit out whatever garbage you cretins will buy

based retard

What's the fucking point of starting a quest if all the challenge can be reduced to following a straight line you dumb nigger? What's so hard to understand in that? Why is your fucking skull so thick?

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Stripping everything else away, exploration (1) vs no exploration (0), 1 > 0.

The point I was referring to was about exploration.
Do try to keep up if you are going to try and add something to the conversation.

Gotta Zoom

Japs care about both. Why aren't you playing superior jap games, user?

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I am glad you concede the quest marker has no impact on exploration.
Goo for you.

Open world games appeal to the lowest common denominator. Nonlinear is the real progression type.

store.steampowered.com/app/794260/Outward/
>Deep Silver
I'm intrigued. They don't always ma

I told you in the first reply I'm not the guy you were arguing with. Why are you such a petty backbiting bitch, user?

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>Have the quest giver make a circle on your mappy where the shibble dribble is.

There, that fucking easy. I don't see why the Morrowind NPC's can't do that when you have a giant detailed map in your pack.

Nevermind this looks janky as fuck
>Unique every time
Uh oh

>tedium
it's just another form of gameplay, done well it can make the difference between boring walks from point A to point B and magnificent bloody adventure. if the world is with it, it lets you get intimately familiar with it, which translates directly into immersion.
it's also an exercise in mapping (which actually can be trained, taxi drivers have incredibly well-developed mapping sections in their brains)

you get a quest to slay a rampaging giant, which is more fun, following a waypoint or following the trail of giant footsteps, felled trees and dead wildlife?
you interrogate a bandit that stole a magic item and stashed it away somewhere, are you gonna just follow the carrot on the stick that leads you directly to it or are you going to follow his directions, head west from the town, turn north at the thunderstruck tree and find a cabin in the woods?
you hear news that a magic item has been stolen, do you magically know where to find the thief and then the item, or do you ask around in the thieves guild, follow directions west out of town then north at the thunderstruck tree, find the thief in a cabin in the woods, only for him to yield that he ditched the loot on a beam under the very same bridge you walked over to leave said town?
a wizard traps you in a hedge maze, are you going to let the game lead you out of it by your dick or are you gonna be a man and navigate your way out of it, making chopping his head off all the more satisfactory?

Or is the combat in these games so incredible that you just wanna get there and hack'n'slash?

>Deep Silver
The Risen of our time.

Why so angry?
Losing an argument on the internet when you are anonymous isn't that a big deal.
Take a breath ,collect your thoughts ,and do better next time.

I dunno, Risen was -really- good even if a bit janky. It felt grounded, the combat was handled seriously, the quests were well written, and the world was fairly interesting.

This looks like it's scrapping together roguelike elements with a half-finished indie MMO

>resorting to "u mad bro?"
Really nigga?

>rpgs without quest markers never existed or were unplayable without them
I want to go back to a time before people were this lazy.

Do you find a sense of accomplishment when you go to Home Depot looking for a hammer and you follow the clerks direction to the correct aisle?
Neither do I.

Same thing in a game.
"Here let me point to it on your map" is near perfect.
I agree the marker pointing to the quest item itself is detrimental.
In Bethesda games I just switch quests once I get there so it is not some insurmountable obstacle.

Journal. Signposts. Well done landmarks and world design. Good quest design so that you don't send the player into 20 different "kill the wolves in a cave" quests.

I don't need to ask if you are mad.
I was just giving you a pep talk.
Shake it off tiger.

meh, recently tried morrowind, wasted 30 seconds checking door names to find the one i wanted, i'd rather just have a compass

>boring irl shopping analogy
>when we're talking about going on fantastic adventures and quests in lands of fantasy and magic
I guess you can't help it, being the tool that you are
shopping for a hammer. lol. fml.

user thinks following directions is a grand adventure.
I found the issue.
You are very easily amused.

says the user who can't wait to hammer nails, I mean, spam clicks on enemies.
I know we're just being dicks to each other at this point, but the fun is in the journey, not the destination.

I just realized that Yea Forumseddit has turned to shit to the point of having half a thread defending quest markers and modern level design.

Fucking kill yourself all of you

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Have a condensed world with good landmarks and many interesting locations.

If your game NEEDS a quest marker that means your world is uninteresting and the player is encouraged to skip over most if it.

got any more

is that horse okay?

Having a compass and nearby locations displaying on it is fine, go to here arrows are a completely different thing

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Broken neck, definitely glue'd.

use the local map, bonehead. it's explained in the tutorial so no excuses.

>It sucked.
no, the journal sucked, but the information you were given was always more than sufficient.

Yes seeing the sights and battling the enemies along the way is enjoyable.
You just like stopping to ask for directions every now and again along the way.
Too each their own.

Name (UNO) (EIN) (ONE) modern game that can be solved without quest marker other than Kingdom Come

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There are tons of cRPGs doing that now, but very few open-world games.

Kingdom Come is really the only recent open world game that does that.

Oh and Breath of the Wild.

What do you mean subtly? It's obnoxiously in your face.
We need to get rid of the absolute brainlet pandering in vidya.
Where the fuck is my Morrowind journal that just gave you some directions and landmarks to look out for? You know, like actually exploring a virtual world instead of simply following a fucking arrow.

"It's west of here"
So is fucking Hammerfell.
You can tell which directions were written early on as they were incredibly detailed and accurate and which ones were written late as they were less so.
Not worth the manhours needed.

If I have free time, I would write a script that reads map marker icon to play Witcher 3. It so fucking mindless game

Literally any of them, it's all a matter of not designing the game around quest markers.
You can bandaid fix it with descriptive journal mods but a landscape with recognizable regions, landmarks and "hooks" that point you towards hidden points of interest is something that needs to be made from the ground up, and no one wants to do it because focus groups decided that someone taking the time to explore and find things is somehow a flaw that needs fixing.

Just go explore if you want.
If you play a Bethesda game that is the big selling point.
> But I can only explore when they tell me to
Sounds like a you problem.

>quest journal describes what you're looking for and what the location is
>use map
wow that was hard

You are retarded and obviously never played a good game if you think the only difference is that you have a quest marker, the game completely and fundamentally changes when it's designed around quest markers.

>designed with quest marker in mind
>""j-just band aid them bro with descriptions""
the point is moot.

They tried that in Morrowind.
It sucked.
At least you tried.

D-Do you really think it can be glued back together?

worked fine in morrowind

my skyrim is modded to work just like that and it works fine. sorry you're too retarded to follow basic directions

>It sucked
No you suck. Morrowind's quest journal was great.

The point is that they COULD be played without quest markers if they were designed properly, it's not an unfixable flaw inherent to games without quest markers.

You don't have to stop and ask for directions, most quest directions you receive in Morrowind would lead you directly to the next objective. SOME need you to do some investigating.

And no, this isn't an issue that can be dismissed as "to each their own". There are so many dumbcunts like you out there that devs no longer see the need to make games in ways that challenge or immerse the player mentally. We literally no longer get games with certain gameplay aspects because of this. You're a cancer that ruined gaming for rpgeeks. A pox on you.

>NPC tells you to go to a dungeon on the other side of the world just to fetch a pair of lost shoes

Yes "Let me point on your map" is an affront to gaming ..nay humanity.
I would probably find the games you like tedious.
An aside
If you enjoy tedium that much may I suggest Fallout 76. That game is made of pure tedium you would love it.

You were a fetus when Oblivion came out so you missed that conversation.

>Yes "Let me point on your map" is an affront to gaming
Yes, it's an extremely cancerous thing that completely ruins games.

>I would probably find the games you like tedious.
I don't care about what a moron thinks.

The quests were badly designed, so...

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Redguards always give me that quest.

I don't get your point, no one said otherwise.

From what I hear eventually it became serviceable.
When I played it at launch it was useless.
> You never played Morrowind
I quit when I did the quest where two ladys lost a ring in a pond.
I spent all of an hour trying to find it.
When I finally did I nearly got to the surface when the Kelp got hold of me and I drowned inches from the surface.
That level of "fuck you" made me quit the game and never touch it again.

>"suggests" a game that is peak design-by-committee quest marker cancer people are complaining about to begin with
What did he meme by this? Don't you realize YOU are the cancer destroying videogames?

That makes sense. I played Morrowind seriously in 2011 and it became my GOTYAY.

The good news ( well for me anyway)is most companies cater to me.
> Cue the sputtering impotent insults.
Sucks to be you.

The way Morrowind did it is both perfect and completely unpalatable to casual retards.
Friendly reminder that casuals ruin everything.

Then just say so instead of trying to imply catering to morons somehow makes a game better when it really doesn't.

I enjoyed it when it came out.
There is no way I could play it again.
Hell the walking speed off the boat would make me "Nope" right there.

>I'm the lowest common denominator
Well ok, I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with that.

sometimes it is fine.
But I am playing Oblivion again lately and there are quests were you have to search the room for a hidden switch or some item and it literally shows you the location of it.
Sure you can ignore it, but it is just a dumb desicion

They did make a game catering to morons.
Fallout 76 cratered.
The only good news is the survival/item degradation non sense won't be back.
Maybe from the CC. The fans of that crap will pay top dollar for tedium.

what?

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I doubt the new generation has ever navigated through a long car trip with just maps and roadsigns. gps has rewired their brains to dismiss any attempt at human orienteering.

Not enjoying tedium is the lowest common denominator.
Story checks out.

A study concluded that games that don't rely on spatial thinking like shooters or quest marker games actually make you dumber.
cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/playing-action-video-games-may-be-bad-for-your-brain-study-finds-1.4237361

BOTW is empty as fuck and can be played without a map

Didn't they do a study that shows that following quest markers makes you dumber? Like you can't remember landmarks and such because you just b-line for where the marker is?

Bethesda has been catering to morons for more than a decade, F76 failed because of many reasons but catering to morons wasn't one of them since Oblivion and Skyrim catered to morons and did well.

It had quest markers.

>Not appreciating jank.

Wow speak of the fucking devil. Thanks.

If you're a child or an autist, only literal children dislike reading.

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I have terrible sense of direction even IRL so Im fucking glad I know where I have to go
I used to get lost in corridor shhoters as a kid, imagine entering a building in Skyrim and having to guess in what room and what desk the item you are looking for is

Feels like a no-brainer. Ever since I started using GPS my sense of direction has gone to shit. Like woman levels of bad.

I'm sick of you fucking nerds complaining about convenience.
A game is about FUN for fuck sake.

Thinking ISN'T fun!
Now stop being pretentious, you pieces of shit!

I appreciate jank when it's clear that the game was made with love. Jank in service of a half-finished MMO that the devs decided to make single player instead is garbage.

> Fans "We want MP Fallout we can play with friends"
>Bethesda "We hear you and here is the Rust lite game you have clamored for"
> Fans "Ummmm"

They catered to the morons who got giddy over Skyrim mods that you had to wear furry underwear or die.
The results were predictable.

even if you're joking I can guarantee there is at least 1 person on this very board who unironically thinks this.

I don't know what's the worst part. That the message itself is totally feasible, or that the only problem with the delivery is you weren't smug enough.

I think the tedium is the complaint not the thinking.

No one ever asked for multiplayer other than casuals, and casuals aren't avid modders.

You can't just turn it off if the descriptions of locations and directions given by NPCs are designed for the quest marker being used.

>thinking isn't fun
Sure user thats why people love doing "just as planned" on online games.

>this moron somehow trying to imply that F76 catered to the "no marker hardcore crowd" when everything about it is the exact opposite
What the fuck is this casual moron smoking?

Yeah, I liked too, no markers on screen, If you wanna see your location look at a realistic map with marking and go, no pause while doing it so, the only problem with doing it on games like skyrim is the 276 quests active at the same time...

> Casuals aren't avid modders.
That is why listening to the survival mode fans made no sense. They were a niche within a niche.

It was more about the tedium aspect that anons seem to enjoy.
If you enjoy tedium Fallout 76 is the game for you.

Stop being retarded already, it's embarrassing.

We had these threads before. It just ended up with some retard killing his chances of completing a quest because he either blew away the shit he was looking for or ended up not knowing who was what because he zoomed through the dialog like a retard.

There were also already quests where you had to figure it out for yourself and options to turn that quest marker shit off, but people refuse to for the sake of looking to start dumb shit.

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Are you saying Fallout 76 isn't tedious?
Granted the anons that wanted to play a post apocalyptic inventory management game are pleased.

Kind of like agreeing to do everyone's chores, then showing back up 8 months later to finally get around to finding their lost kid is a fucking retarded way to play an RPG.
Just turn down quests you idiot.

fallout 76 is dogshit get the fuck out of here

Fallout 76 is exactly the kind of game people talk about when saying how casual focus groups that love quest markers and other such dumbing down can completely ruin a game.
It's a game made for people like you, do you understand now?

Yeah sure, I don't accept it and than I have to come back over and over to the same places in a map bigger than my country so it can be realistic is very fun, of course I deactivate all but 3-4 quests, but still I accept all and leave it on the list so I can activate whenever my active one goes shorter. But even doing so would be a pain in a map like skyrim, too many quests in a too big map for you to be able to hold the entire map on your hands and not having a separated map to zoom and navigate on

but at least the markers on the hud can go

kino

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the reddit spacing meme on here always amuses me. actually, using spaces at all is reddit tier. anyonewhodoesnttypelikethison4chanisanormieandshouldbegassed

Skyrim actually only has 273 non-radiant quests, many of which are part of the main and guild quest lines.
It's just that they keep dumping quests on you just by looking at someone funny which is also a design flaw, if you you split quests by type it's actually a lot less than it sounds.

>being so fucking new that you don't know reddit spacing refers to the double line spacing redditards have to do due to the shitty formatting on their site and not spaces between words

fucking go

?
Item Degradation
Survival mode
Vendors are fucked
Storage space is at a premium
Carry weight is borked

They absolutely did not have casuals in mind with Fallout 76.

nothing wrong with compass, what's wrong is the quest themselves

If you didn't like Skyrims quests you would have hated Morrowinds.
Well outside of the Main quest that is.

>what's wrong is the quest themselves
Which is related to the fact that they are designed around quest markers therefore making quest markers the problem.

penal colony..
home...

npcs dont give detailed descriptions of where you need to go. you have to use the questmarkers.

FO76 was made with no one in mind.

It's terrible in every way.

Quest markers != compasses. Compasses are literally found in the early days because you literally need to know your peripheries.

Why do I see ALttP map

The thread and OP are about quest markers, obviously a compass with nothing but cardinal directions isn't a problem and goes without saying.

>without getting lost
Why is this such a bad thing?

I fell for it and agree.
It does nothing well.

because if you get lost you lose progress and you need to consume products as fast as you can so you can move on to the next product.

I'm glad you're having a good time.

I don't see anything ruining every modern RPG game other than your nostalgia for a shit system that is long past being relevant. Go play another garbage point and click from the 1800s

> a map bigger than my country
Nigger, Skyrim's tiny. It takes like 20 minutes to traverse, and Morrowind maybe 5 with a lot denser content.
> have to come back over and over to the same places
Which happens anyway with every damn chain quest.

Time is valuable to me and I don't like wasting it.

Then why are you playing open world games?

Getting lost in a good open world game exposes you to challenging experiences and discovering new things you never would have.

Video games are tailor-made to be a waste of time.

They are .by and large, enjoyable.

That's the fault of the designer if traversing the world is considered a waste of time.

Same effect as just exploring.

The point was on getting lost not traversing the world.
That is a tangential argument to what is being discussed.

BotW didn't have those.

>an enjoyable waste of time
FTFY

Right but it's accidental which makes it so much better.

Some wastes of time are more enjoyable than others.

>The point was on getting lost
Did you mean exploration?

>make it toggleable with a key.
That very rarely helps much because most games will be designed entirely with it in mind so if you disable it all it will do is make the flaws stick out even more. This goes for just about any game that adds some mechanic for people too dumb for video games like all the new features in MGSV god what a doo doo game that turned out to be f-in casuals hate them sooooo much make me mad just thinking about sucking their penis mmm yeah suck it down boy that's the stuff right in the butthole babe.

I remember enjoying Risen, how were 2 and 3? Also loved Elex but got fucked over by a bug at the end that kind of soured the experience.

> Weeee I am accidentally exploring
Takes all kinds I guess.

Risen 2 wasn't great and I didn't even bother with 3.

Oddly enough, Two Worlds 2 was surprisingly good even with all its jank.

You don't like RPGs if you don't like being taken off your expected track and being surprised by things.

No I said what I meant.
Sadly I can't scale to your level.
Well I could but I don't want a lobotomy.

>Still have that in
>Have it show you the cardinal and intercardinal directions
>Make it so it only shows the nearest town/cave/dungeon or what have you
>Have the NPCs state clearly what you have to do and where you have to go
>Give the PC a journal to write all that shit down
>Fill the map with signposts pointing where each town is
Fixed your open world RPG

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Don't worry, pharmacology has come a long way. I'm sure they can help with whatever ails you.

Story wise that is fine.
In regards to getting lost on a map I am still dubious of the value in that.

Being put outside of my comfort zone in open-world games is some of my favorite parts. I love the "hobo phase", when you're scrabbling for everything you can and the world is nightmarishly dangerous. It makes the slow ascent to power so, so much more satisfying.

so only with someone holding your hand

Well at least keeping up with the discussion on a Taiwanese basket weaving forum is not one of my issues.
So I have that going for me.

>Name a bnetter alternative
Compass bearings, in-game landmarks, actual MAPS. I mean like these were in games long ago before quest markers and worked quite well for people who aren't brainlets.

I agree but what does that have to do with getting lost on a map?

You're right. The fact that modern generation can easily access maps from their phones basically killed any proper map reading skills.

You don't know where you are
You don't know how well your supplies will last
You have to use navigational skills to make it to a road
You are wandering and have the opportunity to encounter unknown things
You are desperate for safety so you are encouraged to approach things which seem promising
You find yourself in new places, new quests, and new adventures by raw necessity.

> These damn kids and their newfangled technology
You are from the RPG Codex aren't you gramps?

Considering phone maps a new thing isn't even a boomer thing, only actual underages grew up with that.

It's even called the journal on the uesp wiki you triple nigger

Kingdom Come: Deliverance, my man

Sounds more like RUST than an RPG.
You usually have a starting town or settlement as a touchstone so while I agree with your points ,by and large, it has nothing to do with getting lost.

technology is great and all but you shouldnt delegate basic skills like navigation to a device in your pocket. some kids these days dont even know basic algebra thanks to the gadgets doing all the headwork for them. It's unhealthy and even irrational because if you lose your device you are stranded with nothing but your own stupidity to assist you.

So you are from the Codex.

I'm 25 years old. I like having an accurate maps on my phone, but I also like to get lost many times. Thankfully more modern games are now getting better treatment for people who like to explore in open world games. You got BOTW, you got ubisoft games like Far Cry has better environments and no minimap, etc.

they can reorder the journal like skyrims quest menu, or have the optional views for both classic and modern. the journal organization was a mess, but the system of finding locations worked perfectly well

Yeah, but that game be shit.

Like climbing towers do ya?

this shit is 10 times worse than quest locations being pointed out on the compass. half of the reason it's so bad is because it's clogged with dozens of worthless points of interest.

I think you're just being obtuse.

It's not so bad and it makes sense. In BotW climbing towers just unlocks the topographical information on your map. So where as before you just had a vast landmass, you unlock a true birds-eye view of it by reaching the very high point of the tower.

Unlike Ubisoft games, it doesn't fill your map with a checklist of samey chores. It just gives you a better idea of the area it overlooks.

There's also just, like, 9 of them in a ~40-200 hour game.

I didn't even use the towers on BOTW because I turn off the minimap, and the latest FC games didn't even had towers

Oblviion was forgotten by everyone because it has no pop culture significance. Skyrim was the game that everyone remembers.

Extreme zoomer take. Oblivion had an enormous impact and changed RPGs for the next decade+ (for the worse, mind you)

Go away stupid zoomer, Oblivion was as influential as Skyrim.

>completely impossible to read from more than 10m / 30ft or whilst in motion
Yeah great idea

Quest markers(and to another extent GPS for that matter) are actually making you fucking worse at problem solving and diminishing spatial awareness skills.

"West said their study raises essential questions about video-game design, and he and Bohbot are now hoping to address those questions together with video-game makers."
"What aspects of action video-game design, action video-game playing, causes this reduction in grey matter in response learners?" West asks. "
"If we understand that, we could potentially improve these types of games so that they don't cause any reduction in grey matter and eliminate any potential risks."
"West pointed to the inclusion of GPS and way-finding markers in many current action games as examples of potentially problematic features."
"These type of markers, we hypothesize, encourage people to ignore landmarks and follow routes that recruit and rely on the brain's rewards system," he said."

So basically GPS and Quest markers are making you absolutely worse at navigating and problem solving in figuring out solutions for the direction you need and that Quest Markers are basically another instant gratification thing to make people not feel bad about being retards.

cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/playing-action-video-games-may-be-bad-for-your-brain-study-finds-1.4237361
nouvelles.umontreal.ca/en/article/2017/08/07/playing-action-video-games-can-actually-harm-your-brain/

Don't let the pseudo clickbait URL fool you, read it fully and understand what they're trying to say between the difference between action games while training you better at reflexes are diminishing your brain capacity at problem solving other tasks.

>Role Playing Game game

So if you don't know where you're going, stop for a second and look at your map and the sign.

What the shit.

exploring is a meme. there's no exploring in any game. there's only scavenger hunting. exploring an area to take in the scenery is fun. autistically searching a zone to find the shit you know the developers hid in it is the opposite of fun.

You actually don't know what you're talking about.

it probably has object name popup when highlighted. like in morrowind and oblivion.

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This post right here encapsulates everything wrong with zoomers.

>exploring an area to take in the scenery is fun.
You mean that's now the entire point to explore? There are people who explore simply because they thought that they will rewarded by prizes?

Why would it need that if the texture quality is good enough to read?

>Need to read it from a far or while moving
You know you could, just stand in front of the sign to read it right?

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Map markers are fine. I open my inventory to look a the location an NPC marked on my map for me. Easy, lore friendly. realistic. I turn off quest indicators and mod compass locations to only proc when I'm literally right on top the entrance to them in every bethsoft game I play, and they're honestly a lot more fun that way.

Having a "GO THIS WAY OVER HERE THIS DIRECTION RIGHT NOW THIS WAY ONLY 348m LEFT" constant HUD is fucking brainlet tier.

video games are for children

exploring is not an efficient use of time. you will miss things if you aren't systematic and you will have to go back and scavenger hunt. if you think exploring isn't a meme you either have way too mch time to spend on one game or you don't care about missing content.

I dunno I kinda misread that initial post. I thought he had a issue with reading that font that doesnt really mesh well with the background.

Really??
Mind you I'm 26 years old and played Oblivion on launch day. How blind are you to say Skyrim dose not far outshine any spotlight Skyrim had? Do you live in a bubble? Have you heard Bethesda mention Oblivion even once in the past 10 years? Did we get a remaster? Did we get a port to everything? Do you see Oblvion merchandise in every pop culture/ game store you go to? I dont think so.

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No.
What you were describing was exploring the unknown and had nothing to do with getting lost.
The only confusion may be you are talking about getting lost like getting lost in a good book and not where the fuck am I lost.

That's only because it's the most recent one.

Wait until the abomination that is TESVI comes out.

shitposting is for autists

It's open world games. You don't play them if you thing that dicking around its world is a waste of time.
>if you think exploring isn't a meme you either have way too mch time to spend on one game or you don't care about missing content.
Yeah that's exactly why I play them. I like to take my time because why not?

>How blind are you to say Skyrim dose not far outshine any spotlight OBLVION had?*******

Obviously people are going to be talking more about the newest game of the franchise, you're still completely wrong about Oblivion not having cultural relevance.

No wonder you hate games.

skyrim didnt sell better than oblivion because its a good game. it sold well because video games in general were exploding in popularity during that time period and skyrim offered cawadooty brodudes a game where you can dualwield swords and kill dragonmonsters.

Most Recent one=most popular one=most influential one

stop being fucking retarded

Skyrim also had the fortune of releasing during peak normie GoT hype.

>lol why would I want to role play in a role playing game?
Normies like you should buy action FPS games, not RPGs. That's what ruined the RPG genre; trying to appeal to the action FPS crowd who didn't know what they wanted and tried to buy RPGs for "epic adventures".

I'm a 30 year old boomer and JRPGs fucked my sense of direction when I was a child. I can't navigate with cardinal directions because I tie them to up/down/left/right of the 16bit era rather than real world orientation.

there's a difference between taking your time and being forced to waste time because of shitty developer practices. walking through a town in a game and looking at all the buildings and characters is one thing. searching every container in every house because there might be a hidden quest item in one of them is entirely different.

RPGs ruined the RPG genre and that is why ARPGs took over.

CRPG renaissance proves you wrong

Cawadooty and Oblivion rose in tandem and lead to the death of proper RPGs for a fucking decade.

>it sold well because video games in general were exploding in popularity during [2011]

as opposed to the dismal sales of the oh so niche vide game industry before that point? fucking wii fit outsold skyrim by 10 million copies a half a decade prior. pokemon red and blue outsold wii fit by another 10 million copies a decade before that. tetris outsold all of those games combined in the 1980s. you have no idea what you're talking about, zooms.

Attention deficit zoomers ruined RPGs.

Oblivion is a better game (overall) when compared to Skyrim (or as I like to call it: "Try-dim," because it's for retards).

Oblivion has a better world with much more variety in cities and "natural" environment. Skyrim is a boring-ass tundra with shitty copy-and-pasted cities.

Oblivion's combat is better, the A.I. fights to win, while Skyrim's A.I. is too artifical (too obvious that the player is supposed to best it).

And Oblivion's animations are smooth and the forms of the animations look (somewhat) natural. Skyrim's animations are clunky and awkward.

What did Skyrim actually innovate?

The rebirth of the golden age of CRPGs was stillborn.
I think Larian is the only one to actually do well.

>now even Oblivion is somehow considered a "good RPG" according to new/v/
fucking hell

>there were no first person shooters or open world RPGs before The Elder Scrolls FOUR and Call of Duty THREE.
You must be 18 years old to post on 4channel, kiddo.

What is the hippocampus region for?

Give directions and have a smaller map with more content and some small semblance of a guided path instead of a huge empty open world

it's not a good RPG, it's just a better game overall than skyrim, mostly because of the atmosphere and characters

In a nutshell it's responsible for memory and navigation. So the article and study does have merit on the fact that quest markers and GPS are actually diminishing grey matter use in the hippocampus area and actually atrofying in people who are too used to these things.

>Oblivion's animations are smooth
Here's where you lost the plot

Oblivion is loaded with jank and the world enemy/loot leveling system made it fucking unplayable. Skyrim did not really fix this. Oblivion had some good quests and hadn't devolved into a bad 1st person hack'n'slash as much as Skyrim had. Otherwise no it was a mess. Cyrodiil stripped all the mystery and weirdness that Vvardenfell had. It was the most generic fantasy land imaginable, which is a slap in the face since before then Cyrodiil had been described as a jungle and had to be retconned into generic Euro countryside.

The music was really good though.

>CRPG rennisance

lol
Larian is the only one who came out on top, everyone else is going out of business or getting acquired by Microsoft.

World and atmosphere are certainly not something Oblivion did better than Skyrim, those are one of the few things Skyrim did better.
Oblivion was shat on hard for being some tiny gay fairy tale field with tiny, sparse "forests" and copypaste dungeons galore, Skyrim felt bigger and had more world variety even though the dungeons were streamlined garbage.

>>there were no first person shooters or open world RPGs before The Elder Scrolls FOUR and Call of Duty THREE.
Wow that's a really interesting opinion you LITERALLY HALLUCINATED. I did not say that.

Get therapy.

Markers are fine and the only people that complain are a couple hundred autists that haven't bought a single game released after 2008 anyway.

>or you don't care about missing content.
your "fear of missing out" is a legitimate anxiety disorder and you should get it checked out.

I assume anyone speaking well of Oblivion is referring to it in a heavily modified, personalized form; Oblivion can be beaten and reshaped from a 4/10 to a 9/10 since its most dire problems can be rectified in the construction set; conversely, Skyrim is just a poor canvas to paint on from the start, modding can't help most of its more heinous flaws.

>there's a difference between taking your time and being forced to waste time because of shitty developer practices.
You say that when modern open world games has fast travel easily available to use at anytime, anywhere. It's open world games, nobody forces you to do anything, unlike linear games where you need to follow its specific pace.
>searching every container in every house because there might be a hidden quest item in one of them is entirely different.
Again, nobody forces you to do this. You already pointed out that you're autistic enough that missing a content does bother you. The fact that you're saying that exploring isn't efficient nor systematic basically proves that you're missing the point to explore in the first place.

The only people who pretend there was a "CRPG renaissance" were marketers who tried desperately to sell shitty modern crpgs to people. Almost everything that has come out of it has either been embarrassing or it got a lukewarm reception.

Replace it with an area marker. Nudge players in the right direction, but let them actually explore and use their brain.

Map markers do nothing but encourage lazy world building. By including them, you no longer have to build recognisable landmarks, and the players don't have to soak them in. You just point them to some stupid fucking shack in the middle of nowhere and they follow it without using any brain cells.

You've got the proper AA games that absolutely kicked ass like D:OS(2), Pathfinder: Kingmaker, a few of the Shadowrun games, and others I'm not thinking of. PoE were pretty dull and overwritten but they weren't bad at all, same goes for Wasteland 2.
Then you've got smaller studios which really made some good games like Underrail, ATOM (even if it is slavshit), and plenty of others. CRPGs are going through a really nice indie boom at the moment.

there was a clear distinction between casual shit like wii and ds and for the lack of a better word "hardcore" video game audience. I was obviously talking about the hardcore playerbase growing with call of duty hitting multimillion sales on day1 each sequel they pumped out.

These suck but while we're at it can we also acknowledge that fucking Bamham detective vision has ruined shit as well

I like how there's one user that actually posted a psychiatric study that actually shows diminished capacity in the brain from overuse of quest markers and GPS and everyone conveniently ignores it because they're the brainlets who have been affected by it the most.

Anyone who pretends there isn't a CRPG renaissance is either a gay cynic who should be ignored, a nostalgiafag, or doesn't like RPGs anyway.

>area marker
or just proper geographical areas of interest that don't need non-diegetic nudging because your world design doesn't suck

Big agree. That was unbelievably shitty in TW3.

>subtly

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>Pathfinder: Kingmaker
People really overestimate how much it's selling, it's also called Patchfinder for a reason.

>Shadowrun games
All I see is people complaining that it's watered down mobile shit, also acquired by Paradox lmao

Nostalgia bait can keep small studios alive to be sure.
The user I replied to was claiming there was this huge resurgence of the genre.

What's the fucking "renaissance" you mouth breather? A shitty baldur's gate clone and its' equally shitty sequel and a buggy Wasteland sequel? Those mobile game tier Shadowrun games? Get fucked, retard.

>People really overestimate how much it's selling
I don't see your point.
>Patchfinder
1) First time I've heard this
2) Tons of great games have been busted on launch and only reached their peak after some fixing up. This is not a good reason to criticize a game because you are not a time traveler trapped in the past. In fact, you are a human living in the present who can enjoy the current version of the game.

I think specify that what you need is in a certain town or country could be pretty useful.

Gay cynic detected. Disregarded the plethora of other games and weakly criticized a small handful of the most noteworthy AA ones.

>mfw your useless opinion

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I can kind of see that. I remember I played this for the first time fairly recently, getting a quest and having zero fucking clue as to what the fuck it meant. I looked on the map and it was a million miles away in the middle of nowhere. Not a chance in hell I could’ve found it on my own.

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>World and atmosphere are certainly not something Oblivion did better than Skyrim
So you enjoy empty, cold, shitty tundras?

>Oblivion was shat on hard for being some tiny gay fairy tale field with tiny, sparse "forests" and copypaste dungeons galore
People will always shit on things, doesn't make it true, though, you fucking sheep!

>Skyrim felt bigger and had more world variety
I can't you typed that out and said "yep, that's definitely how I want to express my point."
Skyrim is trash.

Yeah, I disregarded all these no name games that didn't sell, didn't make any impact and no one remembers. Not even you remember them since you failed to name even one. Stop talking anytime you retarded nigger ape.

>quest where you have to find something
>marker tells you exactly where it is and you dont even have to try

oh come on..

>All I see is people complaining that it's watered down mobile shit
Kind of pointless to say that since most CRPGs can be played on mobile or a tablet.
Any game that can be controlled with mouse only can be played with a touch screen.
>also acquired by Paradox lmao
And their new director is a tranny. It's fucking dead but we got 2 decent games before it went to shit.

zoomzoom pls go, neither game is good

are you implying that one of the most mainstream normie fps franchises of all time is somehow an elite and exclusive hardcore playerbase.

I'm not a fan of the in-your-face compass. I prefer having to manually pull up your map and have to look at things that way.

Why haven't you joined the winning team yet?
>OpenMW
>Fully open source
>Built in multiplayer
>Soon to allow for a dehardcoded Morrowind
>Can be used on Android
>Eventually will support Oblivion and Skyrim

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Kingdom Come hardcore mode got rid of that shit and lots of people complained about getting lost and it being too hard. That game even had a map that showed roads and landmarks so you could tell where you were and it was still to hard for plebs.

>Niche genre games sell well enough to encourage making more of them
>Hurrdis don madda

Baldur's Gate never sold big either and that's the DEFINITIVE cRPG. It sold

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>hardcore playerbase growing with call of duty
what the fuck am I reading

Want me to stick my dickhole in your nostril and piss on your brain, kid?

yes they do. they tell you the exact location and mark it on your map. then if you have quest markers off you need to bring up your map to find the location. that is more immersive than every person knowing exactly how many rocks and trees to pass to find a hidden cave.

>Never sold big
>Sold 1 million copies when video gaming was still small and very niche
>It became the seminal work of modern crpgs and it got copied to hell and back
Good thing that you proved that you're a retard so I don't have to even pretend that your opinion is worth something you ape. Come back to me when any of those shitty """"""""""""""""""""""""renaissance""""""""""""""""""""""""" can claim Baldur's Gate's success.

>The user I replied to was claiming there was this huge resurgence of the genre.
because there is. the last time crpgs were this big were the infinity engine days in the early 2000s. you had dragon age almost decade later, then nothing for nearly another decade, and now we have over half a dozen in the past couple years alone.

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The only complaint I saw for it is someone had the sleepwalking perk activate during the Monastery quest and they had to reload a save.

There were only ever a couple situations where the directions were bad/hard to follow. I think I remember one was a Morag Tong contract on some Ashlander in a yurt out in the wilderness; I had to use the strategy guide to double check because it was tucked away in a weird spot.

>video gaming was still small and very niche
>late 90's early 2000's
Are you fucking kidding me.
You're kidding, right?
Right?

Video games weren't niche. cRPGs were (and are still) niche.

Seriously go have your hourly gasoline gargle and fuck off.

I'm using the term just to describe the audience it was used by and for back in the day. sorry if it caused confusion. of course there was no difference between the casual and the so called hardcore on deeper level. they both were groups of power consumers.

You're missing the distinction between "casuals" of the waggle era, the CoD kids/Xbox-types, and "hardcore" gamers.

I played Skyrim perfectly fine without quest markers. The people complaining about quest markers probably never actually tried playing skyrim without them. They just complain because they are there.

>t. was born after 9/11
If you don't know what you're talking about, it's better not to talk so you don't show everyone how big of a retard you are.

That just shows to me that plebs will complain about being plebs and don't like it that they're plebs.

>reddit spacing
It's YOU that should kill yourself dead.

TES3's Vivec City was the most poorly designed city in any game ever made and you know it

Are we being raided by the codex?
Call Dork Underlord to get his tard wranglers here post haste and drag them home.

what is wrong with a compass?. morrowind had a fucking minimap.

hardcore was always a meme term used for marketing those FPS games for all I can remember. I dont ever remember identifying with hardcore back in the day but that mightve been just me.

Kingdom Come made Steam Platinum sellers in 2018, alongside Far Cry 5, Civ VI, PUB:G, RS Siege, and GTAV.

Divinity: OS2 was in the Gold category alongside The Witcher 3, FFXV, and Ass Creed Origins.

How's that even possible?
There's no indications, in the game itself, where most thing are.

>he
>knows how reddit

>formats their
>posts

you

need

to go

b
a

c

k

'91 big guy. Everyone I grew up with was playing video games. PC gaming did not blow up until the 2010's when Steam really came onto the scene strong.

You're wrong, I'm right. Good night.

Because that would mean playing Morrowind again.
Once was more than enough.

>Baldur's Gate
>rediscovered
Uh, when did this happen?

People overstate how bad the world design in Skyrim is but the quest descriptions can be ridiculously vague, it plays fine with quest description mods though and some things like bigger trees to enhance the feel.

besides writing down whatever you want in a journal in game which you can easily fix by having a mod or writing it in a physical journal all that is what skyrim already does.

Basically when GOG came around and started selling patched up versions of old games that ran on modern PCs.
I'm not sure how much they sold, but I think that GOG selling these classic RPGs in a playable form helped kindle the rebirth of the genre.

The wave of the resurgence of the CRPG crested at ankle level.

About as high as cRPGs ever were then?

>My ring got stolen. Some bandits hiding out in Lost Knife Cave too it
>Journal: Go to Lost Knife Cave

>hurr durr it is YOU who post on der reddut
You're pathetic.
No need to reply.

>when video gaming was still small and very niche
in 1998? in know it was before your dumb ass was born, zooms, but video games weren't niche even then.

>retard failing to realize CRPGs were never really mainstream since they aren't trying to cater to non-gamers to begin with

Hmm, I dunno about that. I've always assumed the majority of people buying BG/IWD/whatever on GOG are people who had already played it or were at least aware of it. Source: my ass but still

Not only are CRPGs not catering to non-gamers. They're catering to an incredibly small subset of gamers who enjoy tabletop-esque systems.

Nah I was one of the people who never touched cRPGs back in the day, I was a kid during their prior heyday. I fell in love with Planescape: Torment and Fallout 1+2 in the early 2010's thanks to GOG rereleasing them.

please, please seek treatment for your severe autism. it'll help you deal with your incel condition, too, I promise.

Baldurs Gate was a huge success.
You are correct most RPGs were lucky to hit 250k in sales in the 90s.

So you should have enough neurons to realize that "ankle level" by the current standards of gaymin mass appeal is actually a lot, the AAA blockbuster mentality didn't even exist until like a decade ago.

>heh, this niche genre isn't as popular as my bing bing wahoos
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make

If you vacuum up every quest then yes, eventually you'll get some done.

That's just horribly inefficient aimless wandering, a lot of people don't consider the world to be detailed enough for that to be worth their time.

I had sexual relations only three days ago.
I'd rather pay upfront (with guaranteed sex) than indirectly.

Skyrim literally had the solution, a path finding spell that lead you to the general area if you desired it, other wise npx directions.

being able to draw your own maps is a lost art

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every person giving you a quest that they know the location of tells where the quest takes place. they mark it on your map. you pull up your map and navigate your way there. there is nothing different between that and morrowind except for peoples autistic need to have the game write down how many trees and streams to pass.

nothing is vague. they tell you the name of the location and mark it on your map. those quest description mods aren't necessary. something skyrim did that no previous game had was have a seperate objectives listing and journal entry for each quest stage rather than a journal entry. the mods add flavor location text to the objectives for some reason when the actual journal entry still tells you where to go.

yes and that is no different than morrowind's go to dwemer dungeon i know exactly how many rocks to pass but for some reason i can't mark it on the map.

Try reading the post I was responding to.
It isn't rocket science.

But I'm not a mapotologist, I don't know the first thing about creating maps.

>nothing is vague. they tell you the name of the location and mark it on your map
Oh so you're a complete retard using map markers thinking it's not a quest marker because you disabled the in-world floating markers which are not the only form of quest markers Skyrim has.

So give quests the player can't do?
That settles it you're an idiot.

skyrim has the most detailed world yet

Kill yourself, even if you're trolling, just kill yourself.

Here you go:

arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/steam-data-leak-reveals-precise-player-count-for-thousands-of-games/

>Title Player Estimate
>Pillars of Eternity 1,275,530
>Divinity: Original Sin 2 1,688,895
>XCOM 2 2,222,475 (not cRPG but another "dead" classic genre)
>Divinity: Original Sin (Classic) 1,208,170
>Kingdom Come: Deliverance 827,988 (not cRPG but closer to Morrowind in design choices)
>Legend of Grimrock 762,137
>Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition 745,407
Just by raw numbers, cRPGs are doing better than they ever have before, including new titles.
Cynics can suck on facts.

you're implying that a resurgence is only legitimized by the amount of money a game makes, rather than the number of games in that genre being released. you're objectively incorrect.

I kind of hated it in BOTW. Especially seeing other people abuse it.

graph paper my nigga
its the same thing d&d players did and it carries over to games well. some better than others.

PC rpgs yes. consoles sold millions pretty easily.

I don't want to, though.

they're called maptographers, user, not mapotologists

Skyrim is far more enjoyable as a streamlined action RPG if you're okay with "turning your brain off." Oblivion fails as a compelling RPG while lacking the same ease of use that Skyrim has, making it fall squarely between two different, better experiences. The only reasons to pick up Oblivion now are for nostalgia, the hilarious jank, or just to add another notch to your belt.

I know you're baiting (and I'm falling for that bait right now), but imagine actually believing that?

You'll have to because I gave you the quest to kill yourself, I marked your dad's razor on the map.
Remember, cut down the road, not across the street.

>skyrim has the most detailed world yet

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this, play proving grounds of the mad overlord

No no you are correct every quest you are given should be impossible to complete at your level.
> But how do I level if I can't finish quests
Git Gud

I know why the companies that make games you like go out of business now.

yes i'm using map markers because the npcs know where it is and mark it on the map.
morrowind does the same exact thing. the npcs know the exact location and tell you in words how to get there rather than just marking the map. which in universe they could easily do.

Quest markers ruin every game no matter the genre. I often catch myself paying more attention to them than the game world. These things hinder full engagement with the gameplay.

>> But how do I level if I can't finish quests
Do the easier quests first, retard. Why are you trying to imply classic RPGs are somehow unplayable when in reality they were pretty popular back then?

TES Franchise is just dead.

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>actually preferring morrowind's FOG FOG FOG BROWN LAND

what isn't detailed about skyrim? the immediate sense of place by looking at the mountain ranges? or the individual biomes telling you what region you are in?

I used mods to take the fog out of Morrowind and it's 30x as beautiful and interesting as Skyrim's average as fuck tundra.

You're literally using quest markers but saying you aren't, where the fuck is the logic in that?

>comparing a pedantically described main story quest to a generic radiant quest

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>tundra
you mean a fraction of the map around whiterun?

HA!
You simpleton!

I don't actually do quests, because I'm NOT a nerd!
A nerd LIKE YOU!

Doing markers like that works more in a game like Breath of the Wild where actually getting to the quest location is challenging.

In something like Skyrim it largely devolves into you running sideways up a mountain while hopping occasionally to try and trick the shitty Gamebryo hillsides so you can climb up them as you approach the quest marker in a straight line.

Skyrim actually has some pretty interesting areas and geography but the Whiterun area gets a disproportionate amount of attention in quests for some reason.

What isn't tundra is even more average Cyrodiil-looking countryside.
The only big mountain in the game sucks.
Skyrim was unbearably dull.

map markers are realistic. it's literally just a visual journal. quest markers are magical "HEY COME OVER HERE THIS IS WHERE YOU NEED TO GO" floating HUD fairies that ruin immersion.

no you fucking moron i'm using my brain. the npc knows the location. in universe he can clearly mark the location on my map. i travel to that location using my map. once i get to that location i have to bring up the quest journal to see what i have to do. i'm not following any marker.

>what is a strawman

Or it can be functional if the quest marker is like "here's where guy's shop is" but doesn't point you EXACTLY to the guy. Just where you might find him during the day.

>Defender fallout 4
>invent lies, or believe that fallout 4 is more complex than that.

Fuck off Todd.

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>average Cyrodiil-looking countryside
did you even fucking play skyrim?

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Have actual exploration

>map markers are realistic.
Not when it's paired with GPS, if you have both then it just leads to cancer.

You are following the GPS so it's a quest marker for all intents and purposes.

Yes, and I hated it.

>Name a better alternative
youtu.be/kdCp7sxb6-0?t=299

People didn't know any better back then.
Not their fault they grew up in the dark age of gaming.

No, you don't.

When I think of gothic I think about the actual locations and places in the game. when I think of skyrim I draw completely blank because I played the game 90% of the time my gaze fixed on the compass and the marker I need to be facing directly at all times. I often had retarded "wait where the fuck am I now" moments while playing skyrim. its seriously detrimental to the worldbuilding.

Literal perfection

You can hate Skyrim for many reasons but the map isn't really one of them, it had a good sense of density and diversity without feeling too tiny or too spread out.

I got stuck in the Bethesda cycle:
>Start playing nu-Bethesda game
>Wow this is garbage for {variety of reasons}
>Oh hey there's mod that fixes {reason}
>Install mod
>Hey this is nice, but there's still {other thing wrong with it}
>Install that one too
>Continue installing mods to fix and improve the game
>Have fun for a short while
>Mod eventually breaks the game
>Can't unravel which combination of mods is causing the problem
>Fuck it, wipe the whole mess off my hard drive
>Repeat 6 months to 2 years later

why would you have a gps? that's literally the quest marker part that people complain about. simply removing that makes the game more immersive and interesting to explore; given that they put things in the game worth exploring, which, despite what Yea Forums contrarians like to parrot, is actually one of bethesda's strong points.

i'm not following any gps. there is nothing on the compass. the only thing i follow bringing up the map and looking at the location icon. then tracing whatever the nearest road is to my location and following that road.

Bethesda games are immaculate, you're just a contrarian faggot.

GROW THE FUCK UP!

then you are a retard with the memory of a goldfish. i can easily remember the regions of skyrim and the roads connecting them

You can have either GPS without map markers or map markers without GPS without being too bad but add the two together and it turns into cancer with zero sense of exploration and spatial thinking.

I liked the system they used in Nier Automata. You only get a vague red area on the map without any visual indications towards your objective until you're close to it.
It's a nice compromise

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Modding a Bethesda game.
I have no sympathy for a self inflicted wound.

Fuck all to do in them.

Majority quests are in towns or dungeons and there is very little handplaced loot besides the occasional skeleton holding a trash loot sword and a 15 septim coin pouch.
If you'll get lucky maybe you'll run into some hp bloated enemy that does jack shit in terms of damage to you.

It's just map markers with extra steps, it doesn't fix any of the issues inherent to marker-chasing.

But, that's just it: Skyrim's landmass reeks with mediocrity.
I have more fun tossing off, why don't I just do that?

The only thing that salvages Bethesda games is that they can be modded.
Bethesda's design philosophy seems to be "make games as lazily as possible, the modders will fix it".

It's just spitting in the face of consumers. FO76 is such a disaster largely because modders CAN'T fix it.

the gps at all ruins it imo. being constantly told or reminded where to go and being led there on a leash at all times kills exploration of the world.

you might want to try actually playing it before you embarrass yourself

That's why I said it's a nice compromise.
There's a sidequest in which you have to track some other androids that are atop a defeated boss's body. The game only gets you the general area from command and you need to use your eyes find it yourself.
It's an improvement from straight arrow chasing like in Skyrim and, sadly, Cyberpunk 2077

It's not the presence of the markers that ruins their game, it's the game being designed around having them that ruins the game, because if you turn them off, there's absolutely no way to discern where to go and what you should be doing. If a game were to have both, it'd be completely fine and please both ends of the spectrum, but that would actually require competent level and world designers that know how to build a landscape or scenery that leads you somewhere or actually goes somewhere according to the basics of geography.

I only struggled with morrowinds system for two reasons:

1: If the quest info was deliberately vague like giving a general region and nothing else and expecting you to aimlessly wander until you find it. (these were rare)

2: one quest i did the retard developers wrote the directions backwards.

Most of the time it was pretty straight forward. And sometimes you would be rewarded for going the extra mile.
For example
>you need to deliver an item to an experienced mage.
>You go to the town, ask around to find out where he lives then go there to talk to him.
>upon talking to him he says thank you this will help me with my research.
>you are done deliverying the item and now should return to your boss for your quest or you can keep asking the mage questions
>The "encyclopedia npc" thing kicks in and he gives you the option to inquire about his research.
>If you you do he mentions rumors about certain items from dwarven ruins.
>you dont get a quest marker for the items
>its not even written in your journal that you are expected to look for the items
>its just lore hes talking about for the sake of lore, to be interesting to the player
>but wait
>if you get curious and actually go and collect the items and come back he will remark upon them and talk about more lore stuff and trade you for the items.

>The only thing that salvages Bethesda games is that they can be modded.
stapling jiggly boobs to skyrim doesn't make it not-skyrim.

>there's absolutely no way to discern where to go and what you should be doing

untrue every quest where you are supposed to know where to go it tells you the name of the location.

Names mean absolutely fuckall unless it's one of the big cities which road signs pointing to them, Skyrim has a serious problem with actually describing places since it just assumes you will follow the quest markers, but that's remedied with mods.

Have you tried JRPGS

JRPGs are the absolute definition of action games with perks.

>Muh floppy dongs.
Fans of Bethesda games aren't fans of tedium sims.
Fans of tedium sims aren't fans of Bethesda.

76s problem is that it was made with no target audience in mind.

No, but fixing the level balancing, loot scaling, quest descriptions, adding a good UI, improving textures and animations, and adding survival aspects makes it certainly Skyrim But Good.

The best time I had with Skyrim was when I had it looking good, had a survival mod in, and a mod that made you contend with the elements. Colder regions made you wear heat-retaining clothes and travel during the day. You had to build campfires or stay near torches on the roads to keep warm. If you fell in the water you were FUCKED since your clothes were all soaked and needed to dry.

It was difficult, but in a reasonable way, not in a "oh I was practicing alchemy while the Drauger were test-cycling and practicing their MMA" way.

are you ratarted

Based

Can't you turn them off?

I did.
If you doubt I offer this.
The detect spells were all but useless because the marker showed up not on screen,not on the mini map, but on the main menu map.

I thought it was a bugged spell. Turns out it was just poorly implemented.

No more "ratarted" than YOU!
BTFO*dabs*

>i never played fallout 4 but maybe if i parrot a bunch of shitposting Yea Forums will like me
>y-you like me d-don't you Yea Forums?

You know you can resize main menu map, stick it and use it instead of the minimap, right? It's a little button on the corner of a window.

>it's still the best Elder Scrolls game ever made.
Sure it is.

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What are some games that fill that "exploration RPG" TES niche, but actually good?

Are you a faggot?

Kingdom Come: Deliverance, STALKER: SoC AMK, and Breath of the Wild.

>t. Morrowind fanboy.

>No, but fixing the level balancing, loot scaling, quest descriptions, adding a good UI, improving textures and animations, and adding survival aspects makes it certainly Skyrim But Good.
No it doesn't. The quests are bad. The writing is bad. The combat is bad. Everything that fundamentally matters about RPGs is bad in Skyrim. People have been selling this horseshit that "balancing" and "survival elements" fix bethshit since Oblivion, and they've always been wrong.

"Skyrim but your clothes get wet" is not a good video game.

For me Morrowind and Daggerfall are on par with each other. Daggerfall is a much better RPG but Morrowind's world makes up for its downsides.

Have good world design and NPCs that give good directions.
Quest markers are a shitty bandaid fix for copy and paste worlds with zero effort quests.

Around 20 years too late with the info user.

As if you actually like playing Daggerfall.

Two Worlds I&II

Why does not liking poor implementation of a spell cause faggotry?

>he doesn't play Morrowind in 2019

Not nearly as cancerous as full minimap, but still cancerous.
The real problem is not that the player has it as a tool, but that the designers use it as a crutch.

I didn't say it made the quests good. But playing Skyrim like a survival RPG gives a lot more impact to the actual roleplaying and exploration.
Even though the quests aren't great, having to overcome challenges, doing them as a proper adventure makes them far better.
Bad combat I can stomach in an RPG. I love Morrowind, mind you. Breaking immersion constantly ruins it for me.

This is the only real option. A workable middle ground might be a quest market that sends you in the general direction or to a town/region, the player would then talk to npcs or consult their journal for more specific information.

Not him but the most engaging experience I've had in Skyrim was getting lost in the woods and trying to survive hunting stuff, thanks to a combination of slower movespeed, bigger trees and survival mods.
Just think of Skyrim as an "immersive survival" game and it can be enjoyable, the wildness is its strongest point.

How does this ruin games?
>get quest
>want to explore for a while
>fuck around and wander places
>eventually decide to go back to the main quest
>look up
>haven't looked at the quest marker the entire time I was having fun and exploring
>now I get to continue the main quest quickly

Two Worlds 1 was truly horrible and you're basically a bully for recommending it.

BotW.
Has weapon degradation with no repair skill.
Aaaand dropped.

>For me Morrowind and Daggerfall are on par with each other.
That is a completely fake opinion that only liars pretend to have. Morrowind and Daggerfall are such fundamentally different games in every conceivable way that the idea somebody could possibly like both of them equally is virtually impossible. I mean it's theoretically possible, but it is extraordinarily unlikely, and the truth is that people only say it because they want to seem knowledgeable.

> Survival
The meme that nearly killed Bethesda.

I loved Morrowind's style of quest descriptions.

>yeah go here, it should be around this place but idk nigga go ask someone else
>be forced to explore the world finding the quest location
>find other places of interest and get nice loot

Seriously, I'm sad that people get stupider every day, they have ruined RPGs with their fish-like attention span.

It's worth it, I'm telling you.

I still like Daggerfall more, I just acknowledge that Morrowind is just as good because of the lore.