How will Saturnfags ever recover?

texture rendering

N64 was the strongest console out of the 3

Yes, I can see that, but the Saturn textures look the best, so why the dig at Saturnfags?

look closer

i think we can all agree ps1 was the worst

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They're not real triangles?

they look real to me.

I love it when people feel the need to add formulas to these images but don't bother to define their variables.

it was better than most games chagging at 12-20 fps

>guise guise can we have a thread about justifying our console purchases from 20 years ago please??

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>better
Crash would literally kill your PS1

Might as well at least these were the legit console wars

Based retard

Not him but those variable identifiers are pretty standard in 3D graphics stuff

crash was 30 fps 90% of the time
stop exaggerating

Only if you had the early PS1 consoles. Later revisions put in longer lasting disc drives. Then again Sony had to due to the popularity of crash.

>saturn has smoothest framerate

Saturn wins

PS1 games that do similar stuff to N64 games run at similar or worse framerates

In terms of ownership and library I always felt the Saturn was stupid. The game cases were retarded and the gamed cost more. If a game was ported to it, it likely had longer load times and looked uglier due to the difficulties it had. I loved some things about it but I always hated it for anything other than Guardian Heroes and Fighters Megamix.

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Yet it literary raped console's CD-drive.

>might as well

Reality already happened and is documented user, so no there isn't.

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Let me have my fun god damn it

They used to be so hot, cocaine should be abolished

Crash ran at a high framerate because the depth calculation was already pre-rendered on the CD-ROM and as you moved forward down the corridor it would keep loading in new depth calculations.

That's literally why you can't move the camera in Crash because it wouldn't match the calculations already on the disk. Other platforming games like Spyro and Banjo calculate depth in real-time.

Saturn had fucking Night Warriors, whereas PS1 had vanilla Darkstalkers. The Saturn wins in this case.

I actually liked the jittery PS1 graphics

>fighting games on console
Lmao who cares, it's not like online play existed back then and they always looked worse than the arcade versions.

>fighting games NOT on consoles

By the time of PS1 consoles had caught up. Tekken 3 on PS1 looked like Tekken 3 in the arcades

Saturn actually did have online play.

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>Tekken 3 on PS1 looked like Tekken 3 in the arcades
Except for using 2D backgrounds instead of the 3D ones.

that still works desu
youtu.be/rRDT1WlTNxw

>Not having friends over
Lonely faggot

What dies that even mean?

>Fighting games on consoles not being a huge deal in the 90s
Peak zoomer post.

> it's not like online play existed

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Ya except no one owned a Sega Saturn so you'd go to school like
>"Hey guys ive got the Saturn net link anyone want to play some fighters?"

And they'd be like

>"what the fuck is a Sega Saturn? Get the fuck out of here user we told you not to talk to us"

Look at the top vertex. They are not triangles, but quads.

10 million people owned a Saturn.

>saturn isn't even a triangle

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Even the SNES did.

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No shenmue

The Atari 2600 did too. Online play has existed since the 70s.

someone post the loading gif

Was intentionally bankrupting themselves part of Sega's plan?

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Not to mention how 2D game performance was almost always superior on Saturn apart from some bad ports like the Saturn version of SotN.

What exactly is going on with the Saturn? I know nothing about this but it looks a square or a thin vertical strip of texture warped to look like a triangle or something, the bottom looks very stretched. Looks kinda cool in a janky way though

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ye

No. 10 million Saturns were sold. I assert that no one really owned a Sega saturn. There were people who were given Saturn's by elderly family members that knew nothing about video game and immediately regretted they choice. But no one really owned a sega saturn. Except weebs. But they're not people. Theyre weebs

Saturn renders in quads instead of the usual triangles. I think some PC graphics cards of the time did something similar, and the 3DO did as well.

youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

I find this shit pretty fascinating, even if I can't understand a lot of it.
The Saturn seemed like a fucking nightmare to code for.

You can make actual triangles with the saturn, but is kludgy as shit.
You use a texture that is a triangle with "transparency" and fold the quad.
But this is relatively quick because saturn works in a really weird way. When it is drawing the quads, it actually scans the texture line by line when drawing, instead of scanning the screen itself, so you can use a color that "halts" that line, so use this "color" to save a bit of time when drawing triangles.

>I think some PC graphics cards of the time did something similar
The only one I know of is the NVIDIA NV1, ironically the company's first 3D card. It was designed to play Saturn ports and had a connector for a Saturn controller.

Hilarious that had the Saturn won the console war all PC cards would be using quads to this day.

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Step aside, zoomers. Reminder that the Saturn was THE worst at 3D of the entire lot. THIS is the performance you can expect from any Saturn game that can't utilize the VDP2. True 3D environments, the likes of which you encounter in games like Wipeout and Daytona USA are effectively impossible on the machine without heavy compromises to both graphical fidelity and performance.

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OF COURSHE

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Some devs managed to get good looking(for 5th gen standards) 3D games out of this thing. The Shenmue build was pretty impressive, I wonder what it would've been like had it been released on this system.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUe9ASlu9Us

>The Shenmue build was pretty impressive
>Pretty impressive
That's an understatement if I ever saw one.
I really love the aesthetics of the Saturn Shenmue build. It obviously looks worse, but there's something really pleasant about the lower res/poly version of this game.

the wood flooring looks better in the Saturn version

There's no proof this is capable of running *as is* on release Saturn hardware.

>reaction picture of a 21 year old character
based retard

the backgrounds are pre rendered mate, there is no wood flooring

Look at how many chips are on this board. Sega had to be making tons of sweet-heart deals to manufacturers. The lazy corporate attitude is visible right there on the board.

My nigga

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>Hilarious that had the Saturn won the console war all PC cards would be using quads to this day.
Very unlikely. PC and console were relatively separate eco systems at that time with the RTS boom and whatnot. Even if the Saturn had won that console generation, 3DFX with glide would have been the 3d choice on PC for that time.

>worst version of the game has more content
what did they mean by this?

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Never heard of that happening to anyone in the real world

>you can only play fighting games online
Zooomm Zooomm away

Christ, this is one of the most zoomer things I've ever read, fighting games were great back then even without online shit, I still play modern fightan without ever touching online due all the time spent playing by myself back in PS1 days.

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if your PSX disc drive died, you could thank Crash

Look I loved my N64, I still do, but the lower frame rate and vaseline smeared all over the screen of N64 games made PS1 games more visually appealing to me.

look at this dude

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Saturn - best 2D, worst 3D
PS1 - decent 2D and 3D
N64 - worst 2D, best 3D

oh kek mine died twice or thrice and I had to beg my parents to take it to the repair shop every time. and I played hundreds of hours of crash

top: soul
bottom: soulless

dunno i've 3 psxs that have been raped with cheap cd-rs, but still work fine. eh i guess it might be just good luck

That's a nice piece of history there, didn't know about it.

>3DFX with glide would have been the 3d choice on PC for that time
Yeah but you could argue it took off because the NV1 had no games due to the Saturn being a bit of a flop. The NV1's performance at quad based games is actually pretty good.

do NOT bully the comfy saturn

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>lower frame rate
like PS1 games didn't have low framerates?

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Here is an interesting technical video about the transparency thing on Saturn:
youtube.com/watch?v=f_OchOV_WDg

Don't know if zoomer pretending to be boomer or just pathetic. Save for very few notable exceptions like Soul Calibur, fighting games sucked ass when playing by yourself. There was rarely any sort of single player campaign type stuff and the AI alternated between easily exploitable or infuriatingly broken, and lacked any of the aspects that make playing fighting games against other people fun.

>JP and BR only
wat

You are retarded but I kinda like the dithering as it reminds me of those old PC-98 games.

t. britbong

>Saturn Chris has a Dreamworks face.

>N64 - worst 2D
Someone didn't play Yoshi's Island.

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No you don't. That's just because you associate other PS1 goodness/nostalgia with the jitter.

Yeah pretty much. They fucking hated the thought of Sega of America being better than Sega of Japan and they'd willingly run the company into the ground instead of admit defeat.

I find translucent vidya strangely fascinating to look at

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Based retard

>*shuffles papers*
>"$299"

SEGA Saturn Classics ever?!
The SEGA Gensis Classics collection is fucking amazing.

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Stop pretending you know anything about the Saturns design.

He looks like Guts after getting hit in the head with a hammer

>even beats the dreamcast in a e s t h e t i c s

how bros?

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He is talking about local multiplayer user

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3DFX was also successful because it was retardedly easy to implement by standards of that time. Wasn't the Saturn a complete nightmare to code for? In addition to that, even if all the console ports 3DFX got from 95-97 had been on Saturn instead, you're still looking at something like 20% of the Glide library of that time frame.

Still, I must admit it would have been pretty interesting to see where the 3D market would have gone if 3DFX PC and Saturn had been the main competitors.

>Saturn and PS1
>60fps
No. 60fps was reserved for fighting games almost exclusively. It wasn't even the norm on PC at the time.

>all the time spent playing by myself back in PS1 days.
>playing by myself

Check out Wonder Project J2 for a rare 2D N64 game without pre-rendered graphics, it actually looks pretty good.

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>posting the prototype
ill admit user, i really fucking want a custom case modeled after that prototype but lets not ignore what we actually got

Speaking of the Saturn. I was thinking of buying one of these to play retro games with.
Is it worth it?

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youtube.com/watch?v=cyv6ZehQyTQ

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It's a good 2D controller especially for fighting games.

Saturn was a nightmare to code for but that wouldn't have translated over to coding PC games for NV1. Also the PS2 was a nightmare to code for and still won the console war by a mile.

Remember that there weren't any Glide games until 1997, so if the Saturn was dominating they might have just been turned into quad games instead.

Fucking Quake 2 and Forsaken ran at 60fps on the PlayStation and those are both pretty intense games.

seeing how things worked behind the scenes is trippy

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I probably would try to shove somewhere in the list that the Sega saturn can't do UV mapping, making some effects like reflective surfaces impossible on it, and requiring that you break the texture of the 3D objects into several "tiles".
Also the saturn FM was not "difficult", it was useless for actual FM because each channel only had a single operator.
Also the cartridge bandwidth on the N64 is actually 100x slower than the N64 memory (4MB/s), but that was still fast enough to fill the whole system memory in a single second.

Quake 2 ran at 30 FPS on PS1 (dipping to about 15 FPS with 3 or more enemies on screen) while Forsaken maxed out at 60 FPS but usually ran around 40 FPS.

Neither of those things is true on an actual saturn.

It's a good 2D controller but if you're more used to the Dualshock getting a Playstation classic just for the controllers might be a better option for 2D controllers.

This also applies to the Saturn, though.

You're right, Saturn does miss the point.

don't know about Forsaken but Quake 2 has an uncapped framerate like the N64 version. It rarely hits and stays at 60.

>it was useless for actual FM because each channel only had a single operator.
IIRC you could combine the operators though for eight 4 operator channels. Inefficient as fuck but could make good Mega Drive ports possible. For whatever reason though Sonic Jam didn't use it.

>the N64 is actually 100x slower than the N64 memory (4MB/s), but that was still fast enough to fill the whole system memory in a single second.
The maximum bandwidth something like 47 MB/s but the slowest cartridges did run around 5 MB/s. Still, that's a massive difference compared to something like SNES where FastROM cartridges actually ran faster than the system's RAM.

N64 has Ocarina, We have Panzer Dragoon Saga, what the fuck does the PS1 have this year?

(ITT: Pretend it’s 1998)

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I am dreaming of a future where people stop pretending Panzer Dragoon Saga is a good game

Biohazard 2 and MGS1 were both '98.

PS1 > Saturn > N64.

Panzer Dragoon Saga is overrated garbage. It doesn't even grant you the fantasy of flying and fighting atop a dragon, since the flying sections take place in a literal corridor, and they teleport you to an enclosed combat arena like every other jrpg.

> Metal Gear Solid
> Literally an interactive movie
> PSX cucks think this is good
YIKES

SotN was a bad port because it was designed to take best advantage of the PS1.
The DF Retro video on SotN points out that one of the reasons the Saturn port runs badly is that it renders a lot of background assets on VDP1 which processes sprites rather than VDP2 which processes backgrounds.
What the video did not mention is that this was done because VDP2 ran out of VRAM for holding all the background art assets.
So it wasn't simply a bad port, there literally wasn't any way to get the same performance without downgrading assets.

The PS2 got better to develop for as time went on. Dev tools improved. And as unconventional as the design choices were, there was at least some kind of design going on there.
With the Saturn it's just slapping shit together to try to compete with the PS1 and failing.
>Oh fuck the PS1 GTE BTFOs the Saturn in T&L
>let's add a DSP for T&L
>and fail to add a divider so you can actually do T&L

Saturn game development was shut down pretty early because of the Dreamcast arriving sooner. I wonder what late Saturn games would have been like, devs managed to squeeze out some impressive graphics out of the Playstation and N64 in their later years.

It would be nice of nintendo if they added i don't know, 8KB? of fast ram cache on the snes so you don't actually NEED fast ram.

>Literally an interactive movie
That was literally the selling point of the game. You zoomers are too young to understand why MGS1 was a big deal back then.

Panzer Dragoon Saga would likely have a 98 on Metacritic if it launched on the Dreamcast alongside SoulCalibur

That has nothing to do with rendering capabilities, you mong.
The saturn "tris" are just quads UV unwrapped as quads here and then scaled down at the top, for no reason.

>How will Saturnfags ever recover?
like this

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>and fail to add a divider so you can actually do T&L
Come on, just send the data back to the CPUs to do that step! it's very simple and non-cumbersome at all.

It was a joke you faggot, we were supposed to pretend like this was actually 1998

>That was literally the selling point of the game. You zoomers are too young to understand why MGS1 was a big deal back then.

>implying that boomers love MGS1

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oh no no no

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>The PS2 got better to develop for as time went on. Dev tools improved. And as unconventional as the design choices were, there was at least some kind of design going on there.
>With the Saturn it's just slapping shit together to try to compete with the PS1 and failing.
Oh I agree to an extent, VDP1 in the Saturn was garbage and nothing could be done about it (unlike Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer on PS2 which were good chips but required crazy implementations) but I suppose had the Saturn sold better they could have pumped money into improving the dev tools and libraries so people could make decent use of the DSP for example without needing to do convoluted assembly routines.

The only advantage the Saturn had was 2D fighters being arcade perfect.

>...but most developers used a Nintendo provided generic one-size-fits-all microcode.
Shouldn't this be blue instead of red since it's a developer issue instead of an issue with the console itself? If Saturn FM Sound Generation being too hard is blue, this should also be blue.

Actually, there was a lot of gameplay between the huge cutscenes unlike modern games.
The gameplay was good enough to warrant sending a second disc that was pure gameplay just using the game mechanics in creative ways.
If you try to do it with a modern game, you end up sending a floppy disk with 4 levels.

They're usually not, closest they got was the Saturn version of Vampire Savior. Definitely the best out of the 3 consoles though, PS1 fighting game ports were choppy as fuck.

The N64 version didn't came until 2000.

>The gameplay was good

>some of the shittiest controls and camera systems ever
>stealth game where you can't even hide bodies because they instantly disappear into thin air
>good

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Many ex-SNES devs have said that the console would have had much better performance if it had 128 KB of VRAM instead of 128 KB of main RAM. Having such a large SLOW main memory pool just wasn't very useful.

Also it sort of annoys me when people say that the only thing the Mega Drive had better than the SNES was a faster CPU. They wouldn't say that if they knew how garbage the SNES's sprite engine is (in spite of its excellent background engine).

I don't understand this. I found MGS gameplay to be pretty shallow and unpolished.

its all about the games bruv

Nintendo had pretty strict standards about the accuracy of custom microcode. Unless it was one of their own games like F Zero.

That's what I mean. Developers bitched about programming the PS2's VUs, then the tools improved and it wasn't so bad any more. The same thing could have happened to the Saturn SCU DSP.

Most developers were forced to use the generic microcode because Nintendo refused to give them the documentation on programming custom ones. I guess it's not so much an issue with the console itself or the developers, but just the shitty way Nintendo handled the development process.

Just as one example while it was shitty, the generic microcode required use of a z-buffer even if a game didn't need one or would have benefited without one since it didn't support manual polygon sorting.

Someone explain all those chips on the Saturn.

What content do they have?

Okay.
I feel too lazy to actually map the chips, but the breakdown is like this:
SH2's are the main CPUs, SCU is both the chip that copy the data between all the memory pools and that perform the fast multiply operations for the 3D transformation, SH1 does the CD-ROM managing (and also control the MPEG chip if available), the 68k control the sample and FM audio (SCSP) , VDP 1 draws (((Sprites))) that can pretend are 3D geometry, and VDP2 draws backgrounds, including mode7 esque planes that are used in a lot of games to deliver fast plane floor, also SCSP is another tiny 8bit CPU that performs shit like controllers and Realtime clock.

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The two chips in the middle-right labelled SH2 are the twin CPUs.
In the upper centre you see a chip labelled FHB007. This is the System Control Unit. It bridges a bunch of different subsystems on the Saturn and also contains a DSP which is supposed to accelerate polygon arithmetic.
Over on the left you see a chip labelled FH3006B, that's VDP2 which is intended to draw background graphics.
To the left of it is a chip labelled YMF262-F, which is a Yamaha FM synthesis chip. And below the FM synth is a 68000 - basically the heart of a Genesis - purely to operate it.
In the upper right you see two chips, one of them labelled YGR019B. That's the CD subsystem. Has a whole CPU for itself too.

Those are the only ones I can make out on the board.