Why does it matter if everyone is living a lie if they all feel it's real and they're happy? Madara was in the right

>following a plan made by an ayylmao
Sorry, I don't listen to the plans made by traitors to the human race.

Even Kishi realized that Madara was right and had to come up with some BS like , so we could actually root for our protagonist.

Did you not finish watching Shippuden?
Madara was tricked into believing he would create a perfect dream world for everyone based on the Uchiha tables he read but in reality Black Zetsu wrote that way back in the past to get a gullible Uchiha to do it because it would serve as a trap to steal everyone's chakra for Kaguya.
And that's more generally why mass dream worlds are a bad idea. They leave everyone vulnerable to threats from the real world. Even if that hadn't been a Kaguya trick they would have been fucked once natural disasters like hurricanes or floods would come up, and in the longer term if they were preserved to live past normal human lifespans then even more fucked up disasters would strike them like volcano eruption, meteor impacts, or even alien invasions.

>Everything about Kaguya
>Not a retcon and asspull
lmao.

Because, and this is something Kishimoto is too much of a traditionalist fag to ever understand, doing so stops any progress humanity can make.
Look at scientific ninja tools. Yeah, right now they're shit, but in another decade or two they could make everyone Madara tier. Then maybe they'll lead to Ninja Space Races and they can go track down and beat up the Ootsukis.
I mean shit with just around 10 years of research already you got Bort using Kakashi's S rank jutsu with a prototype.
And that's just one tech upgrade, with more R&D divisions and all the magic BS they have the Leaf could be not evil Garlemald.

Can you refresh my memory on why Madara wanted a mass enslavement dream world in the first place? He didn't strike me as the kind of guy who cared about world peace, or any solution providing an illusion of it, more of a "survival of the fittest" guy. Let's say Kaguya doesn't exist and he achieves his goal, then what? It's been years since I last read Naruto and have piss poor memory sorry

Because he hated the current world that threw people into the meat grinder for the sake of vague wars or ancient grudges and didn't believe it was possible to change this system by working within it, or even by people just in general. He was friends with Hashirama, but their friendship had to end just because they were born in opposing clans. And then later his brother had to die for their clans' rivalry and strife.

Hashirama was willing to abandon their friendship for the sake of building a better tomorrow and trying to end the war, but Madara was so obsessed with his friendship with Hashirama that everything that threatened it, including Konoha and the ninja system itself, was expendable to him. After he was revived, Madara couldn't stop comparing everyone currently alive to Hashirama, and only showed elation when Hashirama himself was also revived.

Pretty sure Madara by the time he got six paths crap could prevent any natural disaster from happening

Wanna try another Great Leap Forward?

It's not his choice to make. It's like forcing everybody into your cult

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Even ignoring Zetsu nonsense this plan is terrible
If I wanted to live in a false happy world I would become a drug addict

>Which was a shitty retcon
You don't what that word means boy.

Sounds a bit homosexual tbqhwyf

When you look at how pessimistic he was, how little positive attachment he had in life toward the end, and how badly he wanted to crush the spirits of everyone who opposed him post resurrection, it's hard to believe he can hold out genuine good will toward anyone. Especially when he was obviously unwilling to entertain the notion of someone else (Obito) being in control of everything aside from himself. If you remove the aliums end, it's not a hard sell that Madara would eventually start to second guess that people even deserve to be happy, and just change the illusion to torture them all instead.

Firstly there's the issue of the bad twist which makes it so that the plan is inherently flawed by turning the captors into white zetsu, but there is an argument against it besides that fact. Almost every main character, especially Naruto and Sasuke, have a significant amount of trauma or hardships in their lives. Naruto and Sasuke's childhoods, Obito, Kakashi, Madara, and Hashirama all living through wars, etc. While you could let these experiences define your reality (Sasuke in dedicating himself to hatred and Obito/Madara choosing to run away from it) you could instead let it inspire you to do better, and build a better world for yourself and people you care about (Naruto, Hashirama, Kakashi). This effort to improve the world and this decision to turn your grief into positive action is made null in a dream world full of nothing but happiness, and ruins ability to grow.

No you wouldn't, you'd just run out of supply and suffer from withdrawal and drugs aren't even a perfect experience which is why AR technology is being developed. Soon we'll all be in pods, living a simulation indistinguishable from reality with none of the drawbacks.

You have a very low opnion of humanity if you think people will unironically give up reality in favor of a fake paradise

High opinion actually. I'm amazed that there's advancement being made towards the prospect of fully interacting with 2d.

Reminder that Boruto's shithole state of always veering on a new World War proves Madara right.

>Madara couldn't stop comparing everyone currently alive to Hashirama, and only showed elation when Hashirama himself was also revived.
Can you blame him?
Madara and Hashirama are still the tip top of Ninja history.
Who can you say truly genuinely compares to them outside the ayys? There's literally none.

>f you think people will unironically give up reality in favor of a fake paradise
Where the fuck do you think you are nigga?

WAKE ME UP

Madara's the typical happinessfag who got broken by the harshness of reality. No matter how much he tried to do right the world always fought back against him one way or another and he simply got tired of it.

Because that's just isolation and stagnation.

So was Madara going to let humanity die out, or did he intend to inseminate the sleepers, eventually kill them off and raise new ones?

I am literally Madara and I am going to make his plan happen.

He couldn't even prevent getting stabbed Black Zetsu.

There's no reason to endure hardship and do better in the future. Suggesting there's inherent value in doing so is just cope. And it's not as if you can't work hard to better yourself in the dream world, you just wouldn't additionally have to deal with what essentially boils down to as "bad luck". Many of the people suffering in the Naruto world could have done nothing better in their lives to avoid it, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time or their family randomly got killed or whatever.
>build a better world for yourself and people you care about
Literally what Obito was doing. He welcomed people like Naruto and even Kakashi because he knew that Kakashi wasn't responsible for what happened, just a victim of it. Now take this "bad luck" out of the equation, you can still learn and grow even if your friends and family aren't being killed in pointless wars.
At the end of the day the only thing that made Infinite Tsukuyomi "wrong" was that its advocates did bad things in pursuit of it. There's no direct argument against the plan itself, only emotional non-arguments in the vein of "but it FEELS wrong".

the direct argument against it is that many people didn't want to do it but would be forced to or killed. Who the fuck is he to decide what everybody else has to do

No he isn't. He was never a good person, his flashback hints heavily at this. He had four brothers, all of whom died except Izuna and he didn't even have Sharingan yet. A fucking Uchiha seeing his family die and not having Sharingan would be unheard of, even the Sasuke/Itachi flashback retcons it to show that Sasuke actually unlocked Sharingan when he was 4 years old or whatever. Madara has never tried to do anything right, he is a pure Indra reincarnate. That's why the last straw for him is Hashirama becoming Hokage instead of him, a nod to Hagoromo picking Asura to succeed ninshu instead of Indra.

It's funny how that just circles back to justifying the infinite tsukuyomi, the counterargument to feels over reals is...feels over reals.

Madara would have been the greatest character and antagonist in Naruto if it weren't for Kaguya's asspull. Some stupid girl insulted me a few years ago because I said Madara was my favorite character and she told me he was a pathetic fucking loser who was being manipulated. Kishimoto is a retard and his Borushit sucks.

>many people didn't want to do it but would be forced to or killed
Which is exactly the same as the Kage forcing 80,000 people to fight in a war when sending just Naruto would've done the job. That's why the last arc is a pre-declared war and not a surprise attack on the planet. It's "village system forces you to die for X" vs "Obito/Madara force you to do Y" except at least in the case of Y you can live. At the end of the day an average jounin mook has no choice in the matter either way.

idk why konoha doesn't just edo tensei the past hokages and leave them in charge of fighting the ayys

that's literally what they signed up for when they decided to be ninja. That would be like joining the army and being mad when you're deployed

>[character] would be the greatest if not for the plot
She was right. Kishimoto still a hack tho.

They're born in military villages where the only school is a ninja academy where enrollment starts at age 5. And the one non-ninja job (serving ramen) is already taken. What the fuck else are they going to become?

gravediggers and insurance salesmen

Perception is reality. If you can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see it, then it's real. Madara's plan is flawless, which is why it was retconned, because manga authors are spineless conformists cucks that can't go against societal expectations and have to let the MC who adheres by every societal norm win.

His plan would make sense if there wasnt a pleasant afterlife that the character KNOW exists but since there is one and they know its basically just a dumb tantrum.

>Kishimoto couldn't organically argue against his point and so he took a cop-out

Kishimoto did this with every single one of his villains think about it.

> Orochimaru

Orochimaru wasn't any different from the heinous activities other villages were up to. The ninja villages thrive on war, so protecting them isn't for the good of the world either.

A pleasant afterlife isn't the same as achieving your dream.

It also doesn't solve the problem of suffering on Earth.

>Because MUH FREE WILL or something.
Yes, because that you pathetic faggots ITT. If you think Madara was right then just get drunk or high for the rest of your life, there's barely any difference.

>there's barely any difference.

Madara's reality simulates goals, progress, achievement, the difference is that it all has meaning, unlike reality.

It isn't the same as mindless pleasure which destroys your brain.

>there's barely any difference
Spoken like a true retard.

Even if we ignore that Madara was doing the Ayy's bidding, you think ninja humanity entering the Matrix scenario is a good ending?

>you think ninja humanity entering the Matrix scenario is a good ending

It is, and IRL, it's the ultimate future of humanity.

I read a sci-fi novel not too long ago where humans from the near-future get sent forward something like 4 billion years into the future or some shit, and they encounter a federation of ayylmaos with technology so advanced they could digitally upload themselves into a personalized utopia where anything was possible, and once contact was successfully made, they are invited to join.

Well, turns out the real reason they were invited is because a far more powerful hivemind from the Andromeda galaxy (the galaxies were merging at this time, see) had been whooping their asses for millions of years now, and since by this point the vast majority of the ayys had already uploaded themselves and the ones that hadn't had largely left warfare behind, they were pretty much helpless against it, so they saw the new, primitive war-like humans running around as a useful tool to help them out.

So yeah, I think that novel did a pretty good job showing the eventual pitfall of everyone going into their own little private utopia: everyone turns into weaklets too dependent on the pleasures of paradise to defend themselves once shit goes down.

>Who the fuck is he to decide what everybody else has to do
A god? Have you seen sage of six paths Madara?

The future is robots and AIs replacing humanity. There is no point feeding your ass while you sit in VR world all day.

Who cares about those things when you have a guaranteed eternity of happiness? Its petty, arrogant shit