Would SSJ be considered an asspull if Dragonball Z aired in these days?

It was still "chosen one" bullshit introduced just to defeat the big bad of the current arc.

DBZ as a whole is a huge fucking asspull

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Shitposters would argue yes but itd constantly be refuted that it was referenced a BUNCH of times by Vegeta.

So logically no but people looking for replies would say it is. Its a plot convience sure but not an asspull.

What is an asspull is that tingle gene shit Super introduced that makes ZERO FUCKING SENSE and convolutes the whole "why didnt Goku or Gohan go super saiyan earlier" shit extremely

It is an asspull, but it's much better than the "sayan gets stronger after jobbing" bullshit they introduced just to keep powering up Bebita during the Namek arc.

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asspull is a plot convenience (You) don't like

No, but to be rational, DBZ probably wouldn't have even been watched if aired these days.

Why?

super was literally DBZ but bad and people watched it

Super Saiyan is given out like candy in the next couple of arcs, it was never a chosen one form.

kys

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So Vegeta stole Nappa's plan in the end? What a cunt.

bro some vague hints at there possibly being a super saiyan is no excuse for an exhausted Goku pulling an obscene amount of power out of his ass to smack around the dude who was only using half of his power to begin with

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Vegeta was always a cunt just like his fans. Obnoxious, hypocritical, and selfish.

Learn what asspull means brainlet

It is. Goku wouldn't have beat Frieza without the form.

No. It was preceded by a few dozen episodes of vegeta sperging out about the legendary super saiyan. Unlike every subsequent level. Which are all asspulls

Also the fact of Frieza being scared of the legend which caused him to blow up planet Vegeta, Bardock's visions, and why do people call this an asspull?

>why do people call this an asspull?
The latest Wan Piss chapters have them flinging shit everywhere.

Just imagine the timeline where nappa did what he wanted.
Couldve single-handedly brought the saiyans back from extinction if you think about it.

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the mechanics of it were totally nonsensical even for DB. Nothing else even sniffed it

>Goku wouldn't have beat Frieza without the form
That doesn't make it a chosen one form. A chosen one form is a unique special form only that character can have. No other Naruto character can just train for the Six Paths Sage Mode. Meanwhile pretty much every saiyan can potentially have super saiyan.

Doesn't this imply that Gohan should have been the "legendary super saiyan" tho

How was it nonsensical when it was the driving force behind some key moments in Z?

Goku still could have died, it wasn't a instant I win button, he still had to beat Frieza's ass so Super Saiyan being a chosen one thing makes no sense.

Now this makes Gohan more of a "chosen one" more than Goku, they built up Gohan for a while until Cell.

name one other time prior where an exhausted fighter gained power 10000x because he was mad. Even gohan's rage shit was always about him tapping into his hidden potential and he was never physically spent before he did it. SSJ was on a totally different scale from anything we'd seen in DB at that point and how it worked made no sense

better than one piece

It was chosen one shit and toriyama wanted to end the series there.

See that's your problem, you're still applying power levels and multipliers when they stopped being relevant and narrative took over, Goku didn't go SSJ just because he was mad, he went SSJ because his friend was killed and his son was next, and Gohan was being a little bitch before went berserk. You're complaining about how SSJ worked when it was built up prior to it showing up so I don't know where you're getting this argument of it making no sense from.

But, it has always been

It's kind of an asspull, if only because Super Saiyan conveniently is a massive upgrade from Kaioken that allows Goku to go from getting his face caved in by Frieza to dominating effortlessly. From the way Vegeta (and others) were talking about it, being a Super Saiyan just meant having a high power level, not transforming and getting a convenient boost to all of your stats.

That said, it's also sort of fitting that Frieza would create the thing he feared in trying to avoid it, so it kinda balances out.

Yes because it followed DBZ.

>toriyama wanted to end the series there.
According to what?

You'd be surprised how easy it is to trigger the PRC. Some fanfic writer once portrayed a famous Chinese actor as transgender, and now Archive of Our Own is blocked over there.

That sounds like a copout. Throwing away power levels and multipliers when they were literally relevant and basis for fights up til they very moment is ridiculous. The "hints and foreshadowing" at SSJ don't even suggest what it was since vegeta thought he was one. Goku just being drastically stronger and refreshed for no real reason is an asspull. Regardless of whatever narrative you want to use to frame it, it went against everything the series had done prior

Not that user, but realistically Super Saiyan had a problem that was introduced by Toriyama's previous power-up: the Kaioken.

We just established that Goku x20 can't defeat Frieza, so Super Saiyan has to be better than Goku x20. This leads to Super Saiyan being a big multiplier. It sucks, but that's the logic behind it. Tori shot himself in the foot by making a multiplier power-up, because it basically ensured that anyone that wasn't a Saiyan or didn't have access to asspulls was dead weight. That's why Super has to reinvent new ways for Goku and Vegeta to lose in every arc now despite them being more powerful than ever.

goku being a warrior alien is an infinitely bigger asspull that makes no sense
same with piccolo also being an alien

The power levels only applied in the Saiyan Saga and only a little bit in the Namek Saga so I don't know where you're getting it's a copout, of course Vegeta's gonna think he was one, he was practically raised to believe he'd become a Super Saiyan.

>Goku just being drastically stronger and refreshed for no real reason is an asspull. Regardless of whatever narrative you want to use to frame it, it went against everything the series had done prior

Goku's been ding that since OG Dragon Ball you should be used to it by now, and so you're just going to ignore all the lore and buildup that's already been talked about in this thread for some ridiculous attempt to claim it's an asspull?

The ludicrous part of this math stuff was that Frieza was using less than 1% of his power even in his second form.

Super Saiyajin is a blood doping method where intense rage and adrenaline from flexing is used to boost blood pressure and testosterone. Giving the flexer what's known as a "Pump". That's why they utilize a slight flex to turn it on when mastered, and Goku first activated it doing full body isometric flexes in anger after Krillin died.

That also explains why SSJ 1.5 is just a buffer version. SS2 is a deeper stretch in the flex that normal. You can see when Gohan first entered this state, he hit a massive isometric flex leaning backwards a great deal. That was the key difference that made SS2 perfect where 1.5 failed. Range of motion.

All transformations, including Ultra Instinct are just clever training and martial arts concepts. Ki is breath in both martial arts and Dragon Ball. And that's the basis for the God transformations.

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>Goku's been ding that since OG Dragon Ball

no he hasn't. Goku being a quick learner, losing a fight and coming back stronger, or having just enough to win with his finally attack is fundamentally different from him going from being dog tired and outclassed to restored and drastically more powerful than ever mid-fight. Like I said nothing in DB has come even remotely close close to what SSJ did

Yeah no, by the end of OG Dragon Ball pretty much everyone became outclassed by Goku and Piccolo to where they started to become irrelevant, so even before Kaioken or Super Saiyan this was a thing that was happening.

It was foreshadowed heavily hundreds of chapters before and is therefore not an asspull. A manga shouldn't have to hold your hand and explain every little detail about something that is being foreshadowed. Vegeta spent the entire arc trying to achieve super saiyan, therefore you can infer that super saiyan gives you an immense amount of power when achieved. Its common sense

To had to this, they also just introduced the concept of transforming with Zarbon and Frieza. We also had 'transformations trumping exhaustion' in the form of Zarbon's transformation to a light degree, Vegeta's oozaru to a heavy degree, and Goku's in original dragonball to a fairly light degree.

You could say it was an evolution of transformations, going from an Oozaru which was big monke to Super Saiyan which was much smaller but more drastic power.

Wasn't SSJ retconned into being midchrolian-esque kindness cells or something dumb like that?

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How is anyone unironically a fan of this jobbing manlet?
He's literally worse than Goku in every single way.

Debate settled. It's objectively not an asspull.
However is 100% right. Gohan should've been the Super Saiyan.

he's a good character. Interesting, entertaining, multilayered, etc. He has retreads and regressions but he keeps going

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People who prefer Digimon over Pokemon or Sonic over Mario

The passage of time doesn't make something more or less of an asspull, what a retard take.

But that's the thing. Both Digimon and Sonic have big advantages over their counterparts.
Vegeta has literally nothing. He's just Goku but weaker in every possible way.

1.He's an asshole
2. Maybe they like that he's weaker?

Not everything is power levels, they probably just like edgy rivals more. Not everyone is into the Idiot shonen hero type.

The edgy rival is only interesting when they are on the same level or stronger than the protagonist.
Same reason why Kaiba is a trash rival.