Reminder that the last time we got a Sansa chapter in an ASOIAF book was in 2005...

The character I'm most interested in is Cersei. I'm really excited for her trial-by-champion.

Because those were standalone novels, not a continuous series.

I'm on the fence. One half of my mind says that he can finish 6 but we'll never see the final book. The other half says he's basically writing both at the same time and he'll never be able to finish either because of that.

Either way, I have more empathy for prostitutes. Giant wheezing fat man and you're just praying to god he just fucking finishes already.

>One half of my mind says that he can finish 6 but we'll never see the final book. The other half says he's basically writing both at the same time and he'll never be able to finish either because of that
i think both are true, sort of
hes trying to finish 6, but can't do it until he has a fairly concrete idea about how to reach the ending
so in a way hes also forced to write 7 at the same time

or, you know
hes been bullshitting everyone for 10 years and has actually never written anything past 5 and the sample chapters...

Even if he wanted to finish the series I don't think he can in just two books.

>ned stark was 35?
>stannis 35
>Rob 15, with a beard
What the fuck are these ages? I'm on the 2nd book and like it, but why would George write everyone so young? He does know everyone who accomplished things in history wasn't a zoomer right? I'm 32 and Ned barely older than me and acts like he's a 60 year old boomer.

The books were originally going to have a time-skip where they would shift from kids to adults, but GRRM couldn't pull it off. Also Ghengis Khan and Alexander the Great were 20 and 19 respectively when they became kings.

this, why can't he just do it in 3 and not worry as much? not like anyone's going to complain about it

>why can't he just do it in 3 and not worry as much?
Because he is old and obese and could die any minute now.

if he had just decided to do it years ago we would've already gotten wow
of course it's probably too late now, but it's not like this issue is new to him in the first place.

>Alexander
>Augustus
>Napoleon
>Henry V
>all under the age of 30 when their careers started
Society didn’t castrate young men back in the medieval era.

It's the plastic we drink from. It's kills your testosterone.

who tf knows.
we really have no clue how his ending is reached, exactly

in the show, the wall fell because muh zombie dragon
in the books, dragons can't fly north of the wall
so we don't know how the wall falls, if at all
doesn't sam still have a horn from beyond the wall?

in the show, we had a night king who had to die to end the long night
no such thing in the books, so we don't know what the victory condition is for the long night

we know "hold the door" is a thing from the books
but which fucking door? no way GRRM has a fucking door in that cave

in the show, dany had her khal BBQ and got her dothraki
no idea what's gonna happen in the books, but a BBQ is not completely out of the question
and you have victarion with a dragon horn in the battle of fire
we also have no fucking clue how but presumably that solves the mereenese knot and gets her out of there

you have book euron doing whatever in the apocryphal dark magical fuck he is doing

you have fAegon who presumably takes care of cercei, and who will presumably get BBQ'ed in kings landing by dany a la the show ending
but ofc all of this assumes dany is in westeros in the first place
oh, and weren't we promised a second dance of the dragons at some point?

and what about the chick with the red mask?
what about the measters killing dragons?
what about summerhall?

tldr we don't know shit. sam could blow the horn tomorrow and the wall falls in the first chapter of TWOW

>sam could blow the horn tomorrow and the wall falls in the first chapter of TWOW

In my opinion the series should have gone like this:

>Three books about the Westeros civil war.
>Two books about Danareys and her Unsullied invading Westeros.
>One book about the Wall falling and zombies killing half the continent.
>One book about the heroes setting aside their differences to fight the White Walkers.
The End

>Two books about Danareys and her Unsullied invading Westeros
naaaaaaaaaaaaah
if dany makes it to westeros with dragons, dorthraki, and unsullied, she will roll over everything and everyone easily

the show had to really try to create stakes
tyrion was retardified, euron was teleporting everywhere, they had effective scorpions which in the books are not effective against grown dragons etc
oh, and she had Jamie, which she doesn't in the books
imo its 99% sure that none of that shit is happening in the books

plus in the books cercei will probably be taken out by fAegon, and dany will find him in KL
and lets not forget that fAegons original plan was to marry Dany, so he won't be going around executing her handmaiden or anything else retarded either...

dany burning KL is probably happening, but we don't know how or why
the long night is pretty guaranteed to end, but we again have no clue how that's happening
bran is also supposed to end up as king, but fuck me that seems the most improbable of all. maybe he wargs undead Jon and climbs the throne that way, but that means no more real Jon, which also seems very improbable...

oh, and what about fucking Arya? there's some juicy conspiracy shit with the house of black and white, but presumably arya also ends up in westeros again

we really have no fucking clue how we get to the end points the show gave us

Alexander was 20 when he took the throne. Rob is 15 with a beard. I'm well aware of young people in history but it was the exception not the rule. Also Ned is treated like an aged patriarch with so much experience as if he's more wise than the far older characters around him.

>Rob is 15 with a beard.
He's also immature, quick to anger, and he ultimately fails as a king.

Ned had been in wars to help his friend take the iron throne, a five time father and lord of Winterfell.
And in the end he was still outmaneuvered by Tywin Lannister who quickly pushed him out of the hand position and was going to make him take the black until Joff fucked up.

No doubt the Starks are greek tragic characters and wouldn't see a bad omen if it was Death from himself warning them. I guess it's more about how they are perceived. It's true though, all their opponents highlight and outmaneuver these very things I'm complaining about. I suppose it's just the fact that we are reading the story through the minds of young people and some of it just is too mature for their age, even in historical context. It's just an odd choice.

a greek tragic character would begin by commiting hubris, which the starks didn't
the lannisters did
and you could argue that dany did too
but not the starks

But they are Greek. Ned is tragically brought down through his heroic traits. His honesty, duty, and morality. His 'honor.' Same for Rob in many ways.

greek tragedy has a specific (thematic) structure: hubris, nemesis, catharsis
ned stark commited no hubris
he was humble, fair and honorable throughout
he got nemesis'ed out the ass through no fault of his own
and no catharsis at all, im afraid

samefag as if you wanna see a good example of a greek style tragic character, look at jaime lannister
he fucked his sister and was lording it over everyone because of his superior fighting skills (hubris)
so he got captured, humiliated, and later lost his sword hand (nemesis)
and he became a better person afterwards (catharsis)

I don't know about all that. Ned Stark had plenty of pride. He was awful when talking to others and inconsiderate. He had no political or diplomatic maneuvering. Also I consider a tragic hero to be what Aristotle describes as a tragic hero. I think we are thinking of two different classifications. What i'm talking is same for Leto in Dune. I'm also not a minority in this opinion. Since I've heard about ASOIAF, Ned has been labeled a tragic hero.

im pretty confident what im describing is exactly the aristotelian definition
a noble(fundamentally good) character
who commits a hubris (prideful or sinful act)
suffers the revenge of the gods, the nemesis
and achieves cleansing, catharsis

another example is Odysseus in the Odyssey
hes a fundamentally good guy
he blinds the cyclops in self defense
but then as he is escaping, he makes fun of him, which is a hubris
poseidon then proceeds to fuck his shit up, which is the nemesis
and Oddyseus learns some humility from it, which is the catharsis

ned stark commited no hubris (at least, none that i can recall)
and no, being a tad rude to a servant or something doesn't count

catelyn commited hubris in her treatment of jon snow
rob could be argued to have commited hubris too, in violating his promise to walder frey by marrying jeyne (but then again, not marrying her after fucking her would also be hubris...)

>Alexander
>Augustus
>Napoleon
>Henry V
>>all under the age of 30 when their careers started
>Society didn’t castrate young men back in the medieval era.
Alexander and Henry V were both Royal heirs who inherited when their fathers died, which explains why they could start their careers young.
Augustus was likely Caesar's bottom, and also came from a very influential family, so his command was partially position, partially nepotism, with the remainder skill and intelligence.
Napoleon came from a well placed aristocratic family, and his marriage to Josephine may have been the key to his success.( I suspect she was much more important than is usually known)

fair enough, i'll have to read up more on the archetype. Thanks for the input.

It will never finish

>Either way, I have more empathy for prostitutes. Giant wheezing fat man and you're just praying to god he just fucking finishes already.

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We got Alayne(Sansa) sample chapters for Winds you headass. We haven't had a samwell chapter in forever though.

I don't get why people say that the winds of winter isn't coming out
Do you know how fucking stupid you sound saying that?
Fuck you man
It's coming out

symbolisms user. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, seven swords of the Kingsguard. I've doubt you've read anything

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Its really dependent on george not dying with like the next 5 years but assuming he doesn't, I think it will come out.

Im soooo excited fellow Yea Forumsizens.

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you can call his "honor" hubris, right?

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i agree that the winds of winter is likely to eventually release
but a dream of spring will never lunch

If Ned had allied with Renly to capture Joeffrey, wouldn't Renly have just killed Ned just like the Joeffrey? I mean Ned would immediately sperg about Stannis and the bastards.

>in an ASOIAF book
A sample isn't a book.

>Also Ned is treated like an aged patriarch with so much experience as if he's more wise than the far older characters around him.
Says who? The grand reveal of book 1 is that Ned Stark is a fucking idiot who got everything wrong.

holy kek

>Personally I'm most excited to find out what happens to Brienne, but you seem to have excellent taste as well, my friend.

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>fictional man who saw his whole family die, had to fight a war at 20, then had to govern a region and parent 6 kids acts more mature than childless american milennials who smoke weed and watch rick and morty on saturday mornings
wow so unrealistic, wtf was grrm thinking

>why would George write everyone so young?
Tywin is way older. So are Mace Tyrell, Doran Martell, Illyrio Mopatis, Varys, Wyman Manderly, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy, Jeor Mormont and Mance Rayder. To say nothing of the likes of Olenna Tyrell, Walder Frey, Mors Umber, Hoster Tully or Maester Aemon.

>He does know everyone who accomplished things in history wasn't a zoomer right
The only thing that the zoomers managed to accomplish so far is a bunch of shitstorms. Baratheon brothers were all retards who have killed their house and squandered their kingdom, Dany successfully turned the Slaver Bay into Balkans, Jaimie has sent all of his father's cunning plans down the cunt of his sister, to say nothing of his prideful antics before getting handled by the Bloody Mummers, and it's a huge plot point and thematic element that Robb and Jofferey are both AWFUL kings - their lines seen from the POV of Catelyn and Tyrion run in parallel to illustrate them both as such, just in the opposite ways - Joffrey is a spineless little narcissist of a bitch, while Robb is all unbending MUH HONOUR, and both of them bring their realms nothing but ruin. John is not exactly a great commander, getting himself stabbed for the Apples watch. Cersei and Tyrion require no commentary, however much fun Ramsay had skinning people, his position is disastrous, and even Littlefinger seems to have succumbed to his passions, rather than hold to reason.

Regarding young characters in general, you might've noticed that their age can be an important part of their characterization. Young summer children are prone to rash decisions, overestimating themselves and generally making blunders for the sake of their fiery convictions or emotions. Doubly so if they are highborn. Triply so if they are of royal blood. Their blunders serve to give us eventful plots to read about, and rain consequences on their head, forcing them to row up - sometimes not in ways that are not entirely healthy, but then again power doing nasty things to people who wield it is one of the central themes of the whole series. While the older characters are much more careful and cunning - and also traumatized by their past and frequently haunted by their ghosts.

Contrast with Davos Seaworth - GRRM certainly knows how to write a mostly reasonable adult guy when it suits the character.

>I'm 32 and Ned barely older than me and acts like he's a 60 year old boomer.
It's literally a plot point that he had to grow up way too fast, what's with his elders getting Aerys'd and Robert's Rebellion, his sister dying in his hands, and ending up the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. And still, this sudden development did not go all that well - he got through the Rebellion on the strength of his sword arm and his honor, but the first time he had do something more than swing a sword and swear oaths, he ended up causing the most spectacular blunder in the series so far.

Based effort post.

>i agree that the winds of winter is likely to eventually release
>but a dream of spring will never lunch

This sounds like the most likely outcome to me.
Second most likely is that he dies before any more books in the series get published, and they get finished by someone else, with the sample chapters stitched in there.
The series will never be finished by GRRM himself though.

>a greek tragic character would begin by commiting hubris, which the starks didn't
What is Catelyn
>Ned goes south because essentially, she thinks she can play the game as well as everyone when she's the least experienced player at the table by far.
>the war starts because it's definitely 100% the Imp that tried to murder Bran in his sickbed
>Robb becomes a king because she really really really wants someone to save the Riverlands and her girls, but doesn't know what exactly to do about it beyond emulating the Stark muhhonour
>literally the same with releasing Jaimie
>the Frey betrothal happens because she wants her little baby boy to succeed and to be useful for him
>the Baratheon brothers come at each other because she fancies herself a great wide mediator and then absolutely fails to mediate, playing the wise arbiter which only serves to drive the two sides fucking pissed
>The Red Wedding happens because she really wants to see her little boy as a king in truth instead of whopping his teenage horny little ass and sending Westerlings to the Wall
>John's entire bastard angst originates in Catelyn being horrible to him
>Oh and Bran ends up broken largely because she can't discipline him for shit
Every shovelful of shit we see piled on the Starks can eventually be traced to Catelyn being a Cersei in denial. While Robb is Joffrey's mirror, Catelyn is that for Cersei. They are both young women, married into positions of pewer with men they don't love, trying (and utterly failing) to be good caring mothers and great players at the Game of Thrones, all while thinking themselves to be much tougher shit than they really are. At first we see Catelyn as striving for goodness in general, and later at least for the goodness of her house and relatives - because we basically only ever see her from her own POV, and that is filled with doubts, careful musing and better intentions, while Cersei seems to act purely on her bitch whims. But later when we get Cersei chapters, we learn that she's exactly the same beaten scared roe, consumed by doubts and fears and acting on those for the supposed better of her blood, remembering about such thing as consequences only in hindsight - while their actions are both the same brand of rash pride, bitter resentment and paranoia.

>she's not a Stark, she's a Tully
Oh fuck off.

>If Ned had allied with Renly to capture Joeffrey, wouldn't Renly have just killed Ned just like the Joeffrey
Renly would be too much of a bitch to do it. He would threaten Ned with war unless he backs his claim, and should Ned back Stannis or fuck off back to the North (which would be decided by Catelyn, because Ned is a pussywhipped nigga in everything that concerns politics), he would then wish him farewell until they see each other on the field of battle, expecting to crush the Northmen in LE GLORIOUS DECISIVE BATTELLE.

Which of course ends with Renly dying to the shadow of Melisandre's cunt, and then Ned would just take the place of Cortnay Penrose - stubbornly trying to do something he sees as honorable against the wishes of Stannis, and ending up Melisandre'd just as well.

Ned commits hubris when he thinks he can play the game of thrones without staining his honor.

Summarising all of that as hubris isn't fair at all. The tragedy is that when she's in a position to make decisions they turn out poorly, but when she isn't in a position to make decisions and has very good advice to give she gets completely ignored and shit goes even more poorly. I'm going to reply to every single one because I'm bored and procrastinating.
>Ned goes south because essentially, she thinks she can play the game as well as everyone when she's the least experienced player at the table by far.
Not hubris at all. She's mainly worried about the implications of refusing the offer.
>the war starts because it's definitely 100% the Imp that tried to murder Bran in his sickbed
Too trusting of an old friend. Not hubris.
>Robb becomes a king because she really really really wants someone to save the Riverlands and her girls, but doesn't know what exactly to do about it beyond emulating the Stark muhhonour
She tries to stop that and mediate a deal with Lannisters at this point. Which was an excellent idea that got ignored.
>literally the same with releasing Jaimie
Stupid, but this was half-insanity from desperation and despair, not hubris.
>the Frey betrothal happens because she wants her little baby boy to succeed and to be useful for him
Literally the only option available to cross the river which needed to be done. Old man Frey knew exactly how good his position was to extract very favourable terms.
>the Baratheon brothers come at each other because she fancies herself a great wide mediator and then absolutely fails to mediate, playing the wise arbiter which only serves to drive the two sides fucking pissed
She is literally just a spectator to this. Obviously anyone trying to mediate would fail.
>The Red Wedding happens because she really wants to see her little boy as a king in truth instead of whopping his teenage horny little ass and sending Westerlings to the Wall
At this point she has zero power or say in anything.
>John's entire bastard angst originates in Catelyn being horrible to him
She's pretty much entirely in the right on this one. Having a male bastard the same age as your heir raised as nobility is dangerous as fuck. Readers only think this is a massive character flaw because they can only see it through the lens of archetypal YA protagonist Jon.
>Oh and Bran ends up broken largely because she can't discipline him for shit
Ned's fault for enabling.

A Game of Thrones [1996]
A Clash of Kiings [1998]
A Storm of Swords [2000]
A Feast for Crows [2005]
A Dance with Dragons [2011]
The Winds of Winters [2022+]
A Dream of Spring [2030+]

It's as if the longer he takes, the worse his books become. It all started going downhill with A Feast with Crows.

>Not hubris at all. She's mainly worried about the implications of refusing the offer.
She soothes her worry by belief that Ned can be a good Hand, just from the fact that he's good friends with Robert and loved by his northmen. She takes a shitton of pride in him and his capabilities, when it suits her.

>Too trusting of an old friend. Not hubris.
She doesn't trust Lysa one bit the moment Lysa's notions deviate from her own. She believes the letter because that's what she wants to believe, that the people she doesn't like have already acting against her, that the Lannisters have made the first move of this game by murdering Jon Arryn, so she must make her own move in kind. Which is bullshit - Pycelle murdered him on his own. As soon as Lysa starts disagreeing with Catelyn, the latter dismisses her as useless without even trying much.

>She tries to stop that
No she doesn't. She could've prevent Robb's coronation or at least secured herself a place as a Queen Regent over Robb. She didn't though.

>Literally the only option available to cross the river which needed to be done. Old man Frey knew exactly how good his position was to extract very favourable terms.
She had another option. Make Robb turn back north and leave Riverlands to burn. But we can't have that now, do we, her sweet darling little boy is a KING now, and she's too loyal to her retard of a brother and corpse of a father, who are both way too proud to evacuate Riverrun. That's literally a Joffrey situation, with the only differences being whole two years of age.

>She is literally just a spectator to this.
She has the entire North as her bargaining tool. That's more than Petyr had when he went off to the Bitterbridge to negotiate a Tyrell alliance that saved King's Landing.
>Obviously anyone trying to mediate would fail.
Baelish would succeed. Varys would succeed. Tyrion or Tywin would succeed. Cercei would succeed. Fucking Samwell Tarly would succeed. Stannis and Renly are two stubborn dumbass stags incapable of seeing reason. So of course Catelyn tried to sway them with reason, the one thing they are absolutely blind to. While fellow with half a brain could see that Renly and Stannis are both EASY AS SHIT to manipulate - they do spend the entirety of the plot easily manipulated by others, Stannis by Melisandre, Renly by the Tyrells. Anyone who knows how to do that could cater to their pride, principles and desires in order to forge at least a temporary alliance of convenience.

>At this point she has zero power or say in anything.
She is the King's mother. Other mothers know they can have a say in the things their children are doing - either by driving them into submission (like Cersei), or by carefully guiding them away from mistakes (like Olenna). The only action of such sort that Catelyn does is nudge Robb towards giving command of his foot to... Roose Bolton. 500 IQ move here. Then she goes "oh he's a king, he can't rule from under my skirt", just until she gets the notion to free Jaimie. Then she can interfere once more.

>Readers only think this is a massive character flaw because they can only see it through the lens of archetypal YA protagonist Jon.
It is a character flaw, as she fails to be a loving mother - to Jon and the rest of her children. If she deigned to be a protective mother instead of a loving one, she would prevent Bran's climbing even if it would hurt her, raised Sansa to be less of a summer child, made Arya respect the court more, and had Jon packed off to the Wall way before the maester gave her that suggestion. Instead she tries to be loving AND protective, and fails at both, gaining neither love nor respect of her children. And for the record - we have a shitton of Catelyn chapters as well as Jon ones, and they illustrate exactly what they do - Jon was hurt by her treatment, and her hearth had a crack from it, while she ONLY thought about that from the point of self-interest and wounded pride.

>Ned's fault for enabling.
Ned is a shit father and we know that - he didn't have much of a positive example for himself - Rickard was a deadbeat. And Catelyn failed to fill in for him - Bran has two parents, not one.

The summary here is that Catelyn has a lot of curveballs thrown her way - same as everyone who plays the game of thrones. But she never deigned to learn the rules while say, Littleprick did learn, at the same court as her, and when she still come up to bat, she worries and muses a lot, but ultimately acts from pride, fear or resentment, not reason - same as Cersei. She loves what she has and fears to lose it and she wants more, she's trying to play other people, and she sees the responsibility of her position - but she's never willing to actually sacrifice what she has in order to get more of what she wants, she never empathizes or tries to understand people she's trying to influence so she fails at that, and she only muses about responsibility, but never accepts any of it - so instead of playing well, she loses all of her pieces.