Why hasn't John Milton been more influential outside of the English speaking world...

>I wonder who and what the labor was like in translating it into Spanish, Chinese, French and the like.
The guy who made it is a hero.

Who would you say is the second most important English writer after Shakespeare?

He's absolutely not relevant to modern poetry, or poetry of the last 150 years. Literally right after the romantics his relevancy began to die.
You dumb undergrad, you don't have to rank everything. Chaucer has a better claim to second most important, some modernists do as well.

Chaucer is the most important English writer before Shakespeare, but what about after him?

Joyce? Pound? Infinitely better writers, and far more influential now. There are authors who have singular works that are more influential now then Paradise Lost is.

modern "poetry" has no business being as relevant as critics want it to be

>He's arguably the second most important English writer after Shakespeare
Is he, though?

>Pound is a more important poet than Milton
lol @ poundfags, he really did a number on you, didn't he? I like him but he's not better than Milton no matter how many times he seethed at le Milton is le bad because Latin structure or some other nonsense.

I'm not a "Poundfag" idiot. But denying he is more relevant than Milton would be autistic.
>He's not better than Milton
The level of autism here is astounding. No where did I say "Pound is better than Milton", just more relevant. Which is an irrefutable, nigh objective statement. it's also completely accurate for me to assume you've never read Pounds criticism of Milton (which is entirely well founded), but in either case the damage Modernism did to Milton is extremely well documented, and pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Oh yes I do also think he's a far more gifted poet than Milton lol

>but in either case the damage Modernism did to Milton is extremely well documented
Modernism damaged poetry in general

>Oh yes I do also think he's a far more gifted poet than Milton lol
Free verse ain't real verse

ive never met anyone cool irl who cares about modernist poetry. I guess that goes for most poetry though

>He's absolutely not relevant to modern poetry, or poetry of the last 150 years.
Wow, just like Shakespeare our most important poet!

Milton literally wrote in free verse.

>Only the name is new, you will find something much like vers libre in Dryden's Threnodia Augustalis; a great deal of Milton's Samson Agonistes, and the oldest in Chaucer's House of Fame.

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Long winded fanfic will only carry you so far

Correct, Milton is by far the best writer in English.

Blank verse isn't free verse.

>some modernists do as well.
We got a tranny on our hands

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baseddd

I think Hulme knows the difference between blank verse and free verse user.

>he's not relevant to poetry of the last 150 years
What a terrible malediction :^)

Did you just try saying Shakespeare isn't relevant to modern poetry? Jesus Christ. Even if you exclude poetry (of which, there are far too many examples to give) Shakespeare continues to be extremely influential in prose writing too idiot.

>No, I don't think Joyce or Beckett are relevant. No I don't think poets like Eliot, Pound, Frost etc are talked about and have influenced language more than Milton or the romantics
Tell me you guys stopped at highschool English, without telling me you stopped at highschool English.

Yep lads, I tell you, I mean it: he's still digging.

here's a Chinese translation I found online of one of my fave bits in Paradise Lost, no idea if it reads as poetic to Chinese people, seems very literal to me
at least the last lines "tā yī nián yīdù zài líbānèn shòushāng, měi dāng xiàjì láilín shí, xīyǐn xùlìyǎ de chǔnǚ" doesn't really compare with "Whose annual wound in Lebanon allured,The Syrian damsels to lament his fate, In amorous ditties all a summer’s day."

For those the race of Israel oft forsook
Their Living Strength, and unfrequented left
His righteous altar, bowing lowly down
To bestial gods; for which their heads as low
Bowed down in battle, sunk before the spear
Of despicable foes. With these in troop
Came Astoreth, whom the Phoenicians called
Astarte, queen of heaven, with crescent horns;
To whose bright image nightly by the moon
Sidonian virgins paid their vows and songs;
In Sion also not unsung, where stood
Her temple on th’ offensive mountain, built
By that uxorious king whose heart, though large,
Beguiled by fair idolatresses, fell
To idols foul. Thammuz came next behind,
Whose annual wound in Lebanon allured
The Syrian damsels to lament his fate
In amorous ditties all a summer’s day...

以色列族人,屢因這些偽神
而丟棄那賜予生命力的真神,
對正當的祭壇冷落,卻向獸神叩頭,
因此他們在戰場上也照樣把頭顱
低垂在鄙陋的敵人刀劍面前。
在這些精靈中,有個亞斯托勒,
是腓尼基人稱為亞斯他脫的,
頭上長了新月形雙角的天上女王;
每當月明之夜,西頓的處女們
便向她們那漂亮的偶像發誓、唱歌,
在錫安也不無歌頌,還在恥辱的
山上聳立她的廟宇,就是那個
好色的君王所營造的,這君王的心
是練達的,但因被艷麗的偶像崇拜者
所蠱惑,自己也拜倒在淫邪的偶像面前。
跟在她後面來的是塔模斯,
他一年一度在黎巴嫩受傷,
每當夏季來臨時,吸引敘利亞的處女

No one writes in iambic pentameter anymore therefore Shakespeare is irrelevant.

Besides, pretending as if influence on modern literature means the same thing as it did 60 years ago is just disingenuous. There is no great or important literature being written. But Milton's influence is still second to only Shakespeare on our history, and I'm sure plenty of modern writers are still influenced by his themes and stories.

Eliot, Pound and Frost are irrelevant to modern poetry, about as irrelevant as Milton is. Fucking hundred year old niggas. It's not the 70s anymore, we've moved on from modernism grandpa

>No where did I say "Pound is better than Milton", just more relevant. Which is an irrefutable, nigh objective statement.
Milton is far more relevant than Pound lol nothing Pound did as a poet comes close to the influence of Paradise Lost. The Cantos were a failure, even by Pound's own admission.
>it's also completely accurate for me to assume you've never read Pounds criticism of Milton (which is entirely well founded)
It's nothing more than a whine. Pound also dislike Milton because of his "asinine bigotry", which makes him sound like a cringe SJW of today.
>Oh yes I do also think he's a far more gifted poet than Milton lol
He merely parodies other poets in his early career and his later career is a total failure.

His Satan is also a huge influence on at least half of all depictions of Satan that followed.

>Eliot, Pound and Frost are irrelevant to modern poetry, about as irrelevant as Milton is. Fucking hundred year old niggas. It's not the 70s anymore, we've moved on from modernism grandpa
Who are the best poets of nowadays?

>Milton is far more relevant than Pound lol nothing Pound did as a poet comes close to the influence of Paradise Lost. The Cantos were a failure, even by Pound's own admission
Holy fuck I wish people would actually read the works (or at least take a college English class) in question before commenting on them. The Cantos being considered a failure by the author has no bearing on their quality. Secondly Pounds poetry, poetics and essays were the most influential of the modernist movement and forever changed the conventions and conversation around poetry. I am nearly positive you haven't read a single line from any of his prose works, but in either case the influence Pound (and by proxy, the people he popularized and helped publish) makes him far more influential than Milton. Truly no one cares about Milton, he is quickly disappearing from the academic world, and Pound - despite being a fascist - still continues to be relevant in discussions of poetry.
>It's nothing more than a whine. Pound also dislike Milton because of his "asinine bigotry", which makes him sound like a cringe SJW of today.
Ah yes, the antisemitic fascist is a cringe sjw of contemporary times. Thanks genius. He complained about his political stance, as did Eliot. But he also--in great detail--broke down Miltons verse, and addressed it separate from his political conventions. Oh and btw, even authors as far back as Samuel Johnson said Milton was sexist, which probably goes to show how true that statement is
>He merely parodies other poets in his early career and his later career is a total failure.
You have read nothing Pound has ever written. Back that statement up.

Jesus Christ are literal children using this board?
>Durr no one writes in iambic pentameter anymore!!!
Yes, the extent of Shakespeares worth and influence was iambic metre. Truly nothing else was interesting about his writing.
>Besides, pretending as if influence on modern literature means the same thing as it did 60 years ago is just disingenuous.
No it's not. The only argument you can make is that Milton has had a longer (and poorer) influence on English. But that's no longer true, no one wants to read bad blank verse and poor characters for 10k lines.
>and I'm sure plenty of modern writers are still influenced by his themes and stories.
Yeah like that one YA book series his Dark Materials. What a legendary influence.
>Eliot, Pound and Frost are irrelevant to modern poetry, about as irrelevant as Milton is. Fucking hundred year old niggas. It's not the 70s anymore, we've moved on from modernism grandpa
Lmao yeah modernism isn't relevant anymore. That's why when someone lists the best novels in English it's just a bunch of modernist works.
>100 year old niggas
Yeah the point of literature is that it's timeless, you autistic 10th grader. Homer is nearly 3k years old and continues to be more relevant than Milton; time is not a factor. Pound completely reinvented poetry with his literary circle.

>Yes, the extent of Shakespeares worth and influence was iambic metre. Truly nothing else was interesting about his writing.
Just applying to Shakespeare the same mentality applied to Milton.

>no one wants to read bad blank verse and poor characters for 10k lines.
Oh okay so you're a retard.

>Just applying to Shakespeare the same mentality applied to Milton.
You are literally the retard that said "Shakespeare isn't relevant to modern poetry". A statement so egregiously retarded I don't know where to begin.
>Oh okay so you're a retard.
There are literally over a dozen better epic poems, with better verse and better characters (among a slew of other improvements over Milton). You have no leg to stand on for this argument, I can go back centuries through the criticism of Milton and show you how the most consistent complaint are the horrible characters, and bad blank verse.

I notice you haven't given me anything on the contrary to change that notion, and because of that I genuinely believe you have either not finished Paradise Lost (dropping somewhere after book 6) or haven't read Shakespeare, or Pound, or any of the modernists. Actual Highschooler.

>You are literally the retard that said "Shakespeare isn't relevant to modern poetry". A statement so egregiously retarded I don't know where to begin.
I don't believe it you imbecile.

>I notice you haven't given me anything on the contrary to change that notion
You haven't given any critiques. Just 'verse is bad', 'characters are bad'. You don't think Milton's themes had an enormous influence on the Romantics, in England and abroad?

"I don't believe it you imbecile."
>Nooo I don't believe it, it was sarcasm!
>That's why I double downed and said Shakespeare only matters because of iambic verse! No I'm not autistic I swear user.
God you're dull.
>You haven't given any critiques
"Paradise Lost is one of the books which the reader admires and lays down, and forgets to take up again. None ever wished it longer than it is."
What do you want me to say. Do you want me to link you reading on criticisms of his verse? You can start with Johnson, poetryfoundation.org/articles/69382/from-lives-of-the-poets here, and you can start with Eliot by reading his essays titled "on milton". Pounds discussions of him range everywhere, but the most famous one is "him who disobeys me, disobeys" from "ABC of Reading", which you can read free on Google books. As for themes and characters, they exist in such a shallow capacity that writing about them is usually more in depth than PL itself. As Keats said "Milton's philosophy, human and divine, may be tolerably understood by one not much advanced in years."

It is to be blunt, an extremely simple story and deals with morality in an extremely simple way. I think a lot of people go through a phase of loving PL, especially in later highschool and early college years, before you just read more. Its why the people least read today of the romantics are the ones who took the most from Milton.
>You don't think Milton's themes had an enormous influence on the Romantics, in England and abroad?
Yes, a nearly entirely deplorable one. Outside of Keats and early Wordsworth I don't find much enjoyment in there works.

thats all well and good if pound and eliot weren't horribly mediocre, and a complete dead end of literature (not saying anything bad about the novelists though). I know the discussion is about relevance, but you have shit taste and give off annoying energy although I cant place it

Eliot is horribly mediocre yes, Pound isnt

>if Eliot and Pound weren't mediocre
As if Milton isn't lmao?

i find him enjoyable, maybe I'm underread,
Pound is not very enjoyable, super limp

What about Pound is limp. What have you read from him?

He sucks lol

>modernism isn't relevant anymore
Only correct thing you've said. Kae Tempest is more influential on contemporary poetry than the high modernism you studied first year at college. Can you name a single modern poet taking their inspiration from Frost or Pound?
>muh lists
You will grow out of this phase

He used the word Niggardly

>Can you name a single modern poet taking their inspiration from Frost or Pound?
I cant even name a single modern poet without googling, in any case nobel prize winning songwriter Bob Dylan was heavily influenced by Pound and Eliot

There are people in this thread who are really arguing Milton’s verse is bad. Fuck I thought I was pretentious. “Noooo it’s popular and well loved, has to be shit!”

Open challenge to anyone in this thread shitting on Milton, post 10 of his lines from any book in paradise lost, critique them as to why they are bad, then post 10 superior lines from a poem of your choice (especially in blank verse.) or if you have the balls, write those 10 lines, and argue for why these lines are superior.

If you can’t do this and none of you step up to the plate, you are not only a pretentious pseud and whoreson, but a coward and an edgelord-regurgitater.

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Other way around, actually.

>coward and an edgelord-regurgitater.
100% of the faggots shitting on Milton ITT are only doing so because what Pound said about him kek just parroting someone else's opinion

> You have read nothing Pound has ever written. Back that statement up.

Why are you lying when pound himself would tell you about his experimentations and how much he owes to previous authors, read something like his sestina altaforte and try to pretend it’s not explicitly an homage to Betrans de Born for example.

Him taking from and imitating and mixing authors isn’t a negative, success in imitation and admixture is imo the greatest thing an author can achieve. if pound didn’t believe so he wouldn’t shill so much study of prior literature nor would he work so hard on replication of qualities in the translation work he performed. I personally think his arnaut translations his best work.

stay based Frater

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This is true. Victorians are cringe, milton is based

Based and Puritan-pilled