What the fuck there are actual people who take guenon seriously

So were Puritans. Memes about them being “uneducated” is a modern misconception.

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For example, the man says he couldn't believe some doctrines about christianity due to (probably) weak theological formation of priests in his area, but it happens that some shia provided some answers and he fully believes in the hidden imam who 'sustains the world' at this very moment. OK.

What I got from the video is that these people weren't satisfied with exoteric practice. They kept repeating this

Yeah, but the sacraments are not exactly exoteric practice. A true catholic would never dismiss them.

Well, he wrote his stuff in French, so it's more likely for French people to read him, no?

I've literally never heard of guenon until Yea Forums started talking about him. I had an image of him as an obscure figure

Guénon was not so obscure in the intellectual milieu at that time. I think someone posted a text saying about how his obituary was broadcasted in french radio.

At least some french catholics knew him personally like Maritain. Others knew his works like Jean Daniélou – I think his brother directly corresponded with Guénon.

That changes my perspective quite a bit

Carl Schmitt and Mircea Eliade both believed Guenon to be the most interesting man alive.

This seems really retarded. How is it traditional to be French and convert to Islam? Shouldn't they have just gone to their local French church got French married and helped their French community?

Now, my friend, if you intended to link "The Sphinx's Claws", I will have to remember you that I have already pointed out the irrelevance of Olavo's claims in this text for the works of Guénon. Will I have to do it again?

The works of Guénon are being translated in Portuguese by me. I started with "Le Roi Du Monde" (amazon.com.br/dp/B09RW733GT) and "La Crise du Monde Moderne" (amazon.com.br/dp/B09SGBB589).
These two books, however, were already translated before, and now I am prioritizing those works that were not translated to Portuguese before, such as Le Symbolisme de la Croix (amazon.com.br/dp/B09WRDZHP7)

Now I am translating "Introduction générale à l'étude des doctrines hindoues". Which is going to be published next month.

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I dont think they're trying to be traditional. If they were they wouldnt have left the catholic church to begin with.

friend, I want to translate some religious works from non-Traditionalists that have copyrights from the 60s (61, 63 etc). Is it safe to translate them or they could still be under copyright? They are free on Archive.org, but sometimes they upload books under copyrights there.

From what I see copyrighted works before the 1976 law have a maximum of 56 years of protection. Is that it? (I don't know why Tolkien wouldn't be public domain...) What rule should I use to do things fairly? Should I stick to works published before 1927?

Sorry I do not want to demand too much, just looking for some guidance if possible.

My friend, you have to know the year of the author's death. 70 years after his death, all of his works enter into the public domain. For example, I can translate and publish Guénon's works without any problems because he died in 1951 and so in 2021 all his works became public domain. This is the safest way to do it, since it is guaranteed that after 70 years it is in the public domain.
As for published before/after a certain year, it's better to consult this guides.library.cornell.edu/copyright/publicdomain. I personally cannot speak about this before/after a certain year because I have based all of my translations on the 70 years after death law.

Thank you!

You're welcome, fren, good luck and godspeed.

>french
France is a nation-state which is by its definition anti-traditional. There are no more any traditional states to be part of so our origin has become irrelevant, we don't have tribes either, we are all literally dalits.

so your concept of what is "traditional" sounds more like conservatism, which is to conservate whatever is considered old by contemporary society, even if those things have been revolutionary at their time

I posted this vid yesterday on /his/, did you just see it there?

>A coping for people disenchanted with christianity.
It actually rules in favor of Sunnis who call Shias Christians in denial: at some point one of those guys mentions the fact that the idea according to which the Prophet is now dead and that's it, and says that he couldn't bear it. As if they NEEDED the Imams/14 Infallibles' intercession.
I'm not Muslim, but to me the main interest in converting to Islam is to embrace the Tawhid and to reject any kind of intercession, in order to have a direct 'relationship' to God (even though Allah is kind of unknownable apart from its 99 Names and Attributes in Sunni Islam). Therefore some Shia doctrines such as the imamate would be problematic.

I come from semi-rural France and I can confirm that these people are marginal. It is true that René Guénon had a certain influence in the post-war period when he was able to take advantage of the inertia of the symbolist, spiritualist, theosophical and supernaturalist currents in order to place himself as a renovator and to acquire a notoriety. He was published by Gallimard, which is the largest publishing house in France and which, even at that time, ensured a fairly good distribution. However, one should not imagine that the case of the video is representative of deep France, Guénon was never really read by anyone but intellectuals and avant-garde artists. The fathers of the videos were converted because of a whole psychological and social context that pushed them to read Guénon, but it is an atypical path. The truth is that these people found themselves in a secularized society, where modernity, positivism, Lamennais, the industrial revolution and Freemasonry had tried to confuse the very idea of Catholicism, and that these ideas had infiltrated the seminary, so that many Christians were no longer Christians except by habit and social convention. It was the time of the generalization of the mass in the vernacular, of communion in the hand, the church tried to open itself to the world with its ecumenical council and the priests influenced by the Sillon, liberalism, and badly formed in the seminary no longer had themselves a sense of the sacred, and it is from this time that the truly massive decline of Catholicism in France dates. For the people in this story, there was a sense of the need for faith, which is connatural to all men in truth, but the received image of Catholicism was so obviously unsatisfactory that they finally broke out of their inertia and came upon Guénon. It is clear that they are people without intellectual inclinations because they are satisfied with Shi'ism, which certainly does not provide answers as satisfactory as good Catholic theology or Sufi mystagogy.

I appreciate your contribution good effort-poster.

Good post

I thought it was important to give some context because otherwise one might think that Guénon is read spontaneously by the middle and rural classes in France, whereas these are special cases and only in the last century.

>the church tried to open itself to the world with its ecumenical council
I just recently read about the kind of ecumenism that was taking place in the Church in the 70s. It actually sounds worse than what is happening today; the Re-Imagining movement, charismatic revival "channeling", and techno-rave masses.

You just post this guy because he looks funny.

Yes, the 70's were worse from a dogmatic and liturgical point of view than today. The revolutionary and cosmopolitan spirit had affected the Church and many priests developed a very doubtful profession of faith, even downright heretical (non-presence of God in the altar, refusal of transubstantiation, universal redemption among others). The church thought that adding freedom to the liturgy would attract people, but experience has shown that the sense of the sacred takes precedence over the democratic character and the publication of the Paul VI missal has only destroyed the religious sense. It is all these abuses of the ecclesiastics to whom we owe the foundation by Lefebvre of the FSSPX and then later of the Ecclesia Dei institutes which specifically preserve the Tridentine liturgy.

Puritans were likely one of the most well-read groups of people in human history, before radio and after heightened literacy books really ruled society.

he was so handsome

The reform was too optimistic and greatly inspired by fr. Romano Guardini, who I consider a saint. But not every priest is a Guardini and the implementation was not optimal. Of him is said:

>According to a former student of Guardini, Heinz Kuhn, many at his Masses particularly felt the presence of Christ in the liturgy. Kuhn, the editor ofThe Essential Guardini, wrote that in Masses celebrated by Father Guardini, worshippers were drawn into “a world where the sacred became convincingly and literally tangible.”

>With him on the altar, the sacred table became the center of the universe" and in Mass they found “courage to face, to endure and to resist a world in which the forces of evil, Satan and his demons, were running rampant.”

and:
>Father Guardini believed that, for the Christian, body and soul, nature and grace, are gathered together in every aspect of experience, and the highest act of the person is to worship God in the liturgy.

However Guardini himself disapproved the reform, or the result:
>This does not mean that Father Guardini approved of what followed the Council’s liturgical reform. Shannon said that Father Guardini was in fact “dissatisfied with the implementation of Vatican II.

>when Guardini was still alive, I had a priest from Munich visiting St. Gertrude, who wanted to study St. Gertrude, and I said to him—it was right after the Council—yes, I said to him: Do you know how Romano Guardini feels about the new liturgical texts? He says: Yes, I can tell you that. I meet him very often, and when he got the new texts, he looked at them for a long time... and then he said to me: “Plumber’s work”!

I recommend reading these:
ewtnireland.com/romano-guardini-beloved-theologian-two-popes-potential-saint/
newliturgicalmovement.org/2020/08/plumbers-work-romano-guardini-and.html

Guardini celebrated in vernacular and versus populum.

>I will have to remember you that I have already pointed out the irrelevance of Olavo's claims in this text for the works of Guénon. Will I have to do it again?
what did you point out, nigger?

>Olavo de Carvalho refuted him.
Wrong.

> René Guénon foresees three possible developments in the state of affairs in the West:18
> 1. The definitive fall into barbarism.
> 2. The restoration of the Catholic tradition, under the discreet guidance of Islamic spiritual teachers.
> 3. Total Islamization, whether through infiltration and propaganda, or through military occupation.
>These three options were, in essence, reduced to two: either the plunge into barbarism or subjection to Islam, whether discreet or ostensible.
This is a strawman, Guenon never wrote that any restoration of traditional esoterism in Christianity had to occur under a specifically Islamic guidance as opposed to other eastern traditions. Guenon was himself initiated into Taoism.

>The application of this (esoteric vs exoteric) distinction to all other traditions is merely suggestive or analogical – a figure of speech and not an appropriate descriptive concept. With that the entire edifice of “perennialism” begins to sway a little. Are there, for example, exoterism and esoterism in the Hindu tradition, precisely the one whose vocabulary René Guénon uses most frequently, as he believes that Hinduism has reached maximum clarity in the exposition of metaphysical doctrine? Evidently not. The distinction of castes is something quite different. First, because entry into the higher caste is not of free choice: the subject is born shudra, vaishia, kshatyia or brahmana and remains so forever. Second, because members of lower castes can accidentally reach the highest levels of spiritual attainment without changing caste. Third, because the rites of the superior caste, or brahmana, are not secret or discreet: any ze-mané can know them, he just is not authorized to practice them.
Olavo is wrong here, there is an esoteric aspect in Hinduism, as for example only ascetic monks are initiated into Advaita and fully instructed in non-dualism. Non-monks are not initiated into it, and are not taught how to realize and remain in non-duality. The Vedic rituals of the Brahmins are open, but the rites of initiation into asceticism and the related mantras etc that are taught are closed and not openly revealed. Furthermore, the traditional Vedantic position is that Shudras are supposed to be prohibited from studying the Vedas and are supposed to rely on the Smritis like the Gita, Puranas etc instead for spiritual knowledge. Instead of directly engaging with this fact, Olavo brings up a strawman about castes and tries to wrongly imply that caste alone was the reason Guenon thought there was an esotericism-equivalent in Hinduism.

Cont. All from warosu archive, perhaps Portuguese user is referring to to these posts

> It is also only as a figure of speech that the distinction of exoterism and esoterism – or of aggregation and initiation rites – can apply to Judaism, since the worshipers of Kabbalistic mysteries there are none other than the priests of the official cult.
Just because the exoteric authorities are also privy to esoteric instruction does not render those esoteric teachings no longer esoteric, this is a silly claim. Kabbalah remains esoteric in Judaism because its traditionally taught in a closed setting to males above a certain age like 40 or something. That the people who are teaching this are the teachers of exoteric teaching as well doesnt render the teaching of Kabbalah exoteric

>This is a strawman, Guenon never wrote that any restoration of traditional esoterism in Christianity had to occur under a specifically Islamic guidance as opposed to other eastern traditions.
here's what Guenon wrote about it in the Conclusion section of Intro to Study of Hindu Doctrines
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>Guénons first book
>No mention of Islamisation political/modern
>Can't differentiate between what Guénon means by "present-day West" meaning the current degenerated "Western Tradition" in the sense of pseudo-metaphysics, which he is to treat in his directly following books Theosophy and Spiritist Fallacy,
>couple pages from first book, not a holitistic approach at all.
>In later books and writings Guénon looks further into Western Esoterism, however never is it called necessarily accesible, talks about a return to corrected Western tradition, that each people have their own tendencies etc. Evangelism, etc. Imposition of Islam, which is what "Islamisation" means is repeatedly spoken against.
>hurr durr Guénon is talking about Modern day "Islamisation" and stuff..
>while I agree that Guénon wanted Intellectual Exchange between West and East, perhaps one-sided, there was never any hint of Total exclusivism with respects to Islam, this sort of subordination of traditions to Islam is contrary to the whole Project
Ngmi. Total Shudra takes.

Also related from archive:

>guenon was a "muslim" lol
No.
>most accesible and practical for the period
>Schuon who essentialy continued this Sufistic approach, was disillusioned with Islamic exoterism
>"Islamisation" in this vulgar profane and generalised mass-approach, entails nothing more than Exoterism, Esoterism is not Specifically "Islamic" no ideas are new ideas, you cannot Islamise the esoteric core of a Tradition other than Islam itself, that would be anti-traditional, the whole point of different religions is existing is their difference.
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I have obviously read this book no where do I see Islamisation mentioned, Guénon talked about transfers East and West between Eastern authorised representatives, etc. And a Western intellectual elite so to speak, Islam is not even Eastern in its proper sense, regardless no where did I detect this sort of profane "Islamisation' rhetoric other than perhaps in the anti-traditional Islamic subordinationists who go a bit too far taking this approach, the exchange is purely intellectual, if you think it has anything to do with modern-day migrations etc. Please get out of this thread hylic.

One of the problems with unquestioningly adhering to dogmatism set forth by an elite, is one may not find the best path towards enlightenment for oneself. For Guenon, given his nature as more or less purely intellectual, the path of the Brahmin in its properly Traditional sense (i.e., attached to institutions with a clear chain for transmission of Wisdom) is most advantageous. However, given the nature of the Western spirit, often driven towards action and overcoming in a heroic sense, as well as the fact that we are in an age of dissolution where these institutions have either been totally subverted, destroyed, or receded underground, the path that unites contemplation and action is often advantageous for other types. Do not forget that the priest-king, king of the world, the highest attainment of initiation or spiritual knowledge/understanding/experience, re-unites the primordial union of red and white, in the state before it was split into to strands (a degeneration). We should also note that such a union was present in ancient Ireland and possibly among the Celts. In truly Western esoteric Traditions (pre-Christian) this union is held in high regard, and the means of realisation are not always clear, or often suggest the heroic path of action (for example, the ancient heroic myths across virtually all indo-European Traditions).

Whether or not the transmission is passed on through the priests or the warriors at this point seems less relevant when it comes to individual actualisation. This is why I think it is wrong (for certain "types", at least) to reject the path of action, as a priest historically would have over the last 1500 years or so in Europe.

So my point is, having studied Guenon and greatly appreciating his knowledge, do not reject action or going out and trying things out for yourself. Initiatic wisdom properly understood is experiential, you will not obtain it from reading books. Sure, you may be able to join some sufi sect/order that retains some esoteric influence, but you may also be limiting yourself, or solidifying your state. Or worse, you simply read about things, never experiencing them, and enforcing your false ego, or you join the freemasons (lol) which tend downards.

Of course the path of action is not without its own risks, which is why one must tie it to that of wisdom or contemplation. When this happens things start to fall into place, as you gradually become a center. To run from fear of this (the "satanic" will) often comes from a lack of confidence. You must remain pure, calm, strive for perfect equanimity, which naturally implies detachment, and allow divinity to come to you. This is how you can come to know the mysteries of the heart, the central fire, through experience, which in essence is the initiatic journey. Traditional organisations with authentic chains of experiential knowledge are found later. Esoteric knowledge is experiential, at the very least as far as man is concerned.

return to barbarism is unironically the most superior path
let me do some digging and come back to you two later with actual quotes from Crisis/East&West/HinduDoctrines
>the exchange is purely intellectual, if you think it has anything to do with modern-day migrations
right but that was option 2. he states that if the intellectual exchange part fails then Islam could very well swallow up the West
on another note, there are quotes from Schuon and Lings talking about the same thing

> he states that if the intellectual exchange part fails then Islam could very well swallow up the West
in either E&W or CotMW, he says that this would be the less preferable option relative to Western tradition being restored, due to the chance of Islamization generating social tensions up to possibly including armed conflict

This is my effortpost on what could be called more of a path of action towards transcendent knowledge, as opposed to simply joining a lame eastern organisation after years of reading theories. I am speaking through experience to a large extent. It is my opinion that this is a more Western path, in the quest to unite the two powers once more within oneself. We see the path of action emphasised constantly in indo-European heroic myth, all over different continents, but especially Europe.

Arthur had Merlin (who often appears to be just another higher element of Arthur's intellect). Guenon and Evola affirm that this is a very ancient Tradition, quite possibly going back to the Hyperboreans. Or it could be Hermes, as in Hermes-Thoth, the divine purveyor of spiritual knowledge, of the priestly caste; hence we get the term Hermeticism, which teaches self-actualisation through alchemy. Interesting to note on this topic is that despite Hermes being of the priestly type, the ultimate symbol of the completion of the work is the Royal symbol of the crown, red or purple.

Too many people seem caught up on arguing abput exoteric constructs (also temporal) instead of experiential wisdom, which is perennial and true esotericism, and above such things. Many are just concretizing their ego but do not reach a center.

How do you define barbarism?

The West has already been swallowed spiritually by an Eastern semitic deviation of spirituality. Insofar as Islam represents this, I do not care if there is a "shift" towards Islam. However what I do care about is the effect of yet another semitic deviation (this one even more plebian and universal in a negative sense) further swallowing Europe. To illustrate, the average muslim being imported to the West is a semi-literate uncivilised retard. These essences will only contribute to the dissolution of the West, as we see in every major European city. If you are a leftist and don't care about this, you are hardly ready for matters of a transcendent nature.

Independent of religion, the Western White man must once again become a powerful force in and of himself.

> Independent of religion, the Western White man must once again become a powerful force in and of himself.
If any given society is not guided and deeply informed by a common religious worldview, then people divert their energies into acquiring material wealth and pursuing amusement/hedonism, and a society that becomes very wealthy while having an impoverished spiritual life soon becomes decadent and depraved, undermining it from within, setting itself up for later failure.

Islam no matter its form already constitutes a deviation from the higher aristocratic nature of Europeans or white people. The tendency towards democracy and universalism is a semitic element which opens up a path to inferior forces (of "matter", the masses). We don't need any more of this. Of course Islam also has superior values as well, but these are usually overshadowed by the lower elements. If we are talking about pure spirituality or esotericism, some sufi orders may get it right, but I am also sure many do not. I really do not see the need for Islam to reinstate Tradition in the West. If anything Orthodox Christianity appears to be more than enough as a nucleus, not to mention other more ancient and purer/more powerful initiatic orders watching over the West, which you probably won't learn about from Guenon. The nobler elements of Islam should be allied with, and the inferior elements (hordes of inbred semitic-arab chimps being imported to destroy the West) should be impeded. In this way you create a core of highly competent and wise elites.

>If any given society is not guided and deeply informed by a common religious worldview, then people divert their energies into acquiring material wealth and pursuing amusement/hedonism
Which has already happened, which is why I'm arguing for the reconstruction of a core, which can be worked towards in a decentralised manner. Thus one should purify himself spiritually, implying a detachment and disregard for those negative tendencies you have identified. This goes for all people, and yes religion will play a part to varying degrees, dependent on the individual.

If you are saying one religion must be adopted by the entire civilisation, I don't see how this pursuit could be anything but subversive at this point. Right now the perennial wisdom taught by multiple religions should be the starting point, and tge enlightened core elite of these groups can help to establish solidarity with other religious cores. This way we fight off the dissolutive elements while staying united (having greater spiritual strength/potency).

right right
and what Olavo is arguing in his essay is that there is not esoteric dimension to Christianity so Guenon's attempts to esoterify it are a waste of time, making the whole Catholic-revival-under-secret-sufi-masters a pointless endeavor that will only result in an Islamic takeover of the West.

It should be noted that at the very end of the essay, he states
>Many Christians, Catholics or not, were so indignant at the teachings of René Guénon that they made several attempts to refute and even disparage him. These attempts only proved the opponent's intellectual superiority and fell into ridicule or oblivion.

>In this respect, Guénon's disciples were not entirely wrong in considering him insurmountable (the “infallible compass”, said Michel Valsân). But Guénon does not need to be fought or defeated. By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened. .

so user... have you deciphered the SPHINX?
Well the standard definition according to the dictionary is 'absence of civilization'
What civilization do we have nowadays anyway?
Catholicism is finished too so propping it up is a waste of time and I don't want to become sandniggered either. So that leaves Barbarism as the only viable path.

Think Hitlerism, but with a Guenonian metaphysical foundation.
(Guenon also does believe that the 'European race' is a real thing.)

Traditional Barbarism baby. The true Germanic way.

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>not to mention other more ancient and purer/more powerful initiatic orders watching over the West,
Like?

>Traditional Barbarism baby. The true Germanic way.
Incredibly based. You've convinced me.

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> By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened.
Kino. It was pretty obvious with the sort of scolding in Guénons early books.

user what you wrote is powerful and it felt like it was specifically written for me.

I know of Guenon but I have never really read him, and at this point I'm not sure how necessary it is to read him.

My initial readings started with Bible/Philosophy...Esotercisim began with the GOspel of Thomas and Gnosticism, along with Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, (philosophy was maintained in parallel with Nietzsche/Kierkegaard mainly), also Jung, Gurdjieff and his disciples are also important (particularly Maurice Nicoll)...I have read much, some in depth, many things I've skimmed...Anyway there is a lot more to say here but at the end of the day it's not really relevant, since the point here is the "experiential"

I grew up in America and am currently living in France, although I've made some attempts to get into certain circles (half-hearted attempts admittedly), the overall sentiment for me is the French are just as much in a void as what is happening in America and most likely all around the world...

Anyway, I'm not sure what I'm trying to get at, nothing really, just sharing, but I am curious if you can speak more about your own experiences, particularly the 'experiential' aspect...Any further advice would be much appreciated...Thank you

> By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened.

Yes... Guenon is like Morpheus in the training scenes and we could not be more blessed to have him as a teacher.

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Peace Be Upon Him

>(Guenon also does believe that the 'European race' is a real thing.)
Ya, but he has been proven slightly wrong in that, since we know the indo-Europeans were a race (in the spiritual and material sense). Barbarism is fine, but it should not fall to the lower natures, which may unfortunately be conduited through improper application of spirituality.

I agree with you on the condition that there is a spiritual (and thus physical) purification and rectification at the individual level. Imagine a bunch of strong White men, having surpassed the dangerous trials of modernity, essentially becoming neo-feudal aristocrats with influence and spiritual power, coalescing and forming a new/revitalized core. This is my aim, and I would encourage others to do so, in whatever way best suits their nature. Wisdom is definitely needed, which should go without saying.

>becoming neo-feudal aristocrats with influence and spiritual power
>this is my aim, and I would encourage others to do so
based, we are on the same page
now the question is... how do we accelerate this timeline?

So based

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