MHA: Shigaraki isn't a good villain to Deku

But they do. Deku wants to save everyone and by the symbol of peace, Shigraki wants to destroy everything and be a symbol of terror. It's opposite goals.

>represent some aspect of the hero, a dark reflection of them.

That's literally what they are. Shigaraki had his life destroyed by having a quirk and was taken in by the greatest villian who saw the potential to be a great evil. Deku had his life suck by not having a quirk and was taken in by the greatest hero who saw potential in him. How did you miss this.

Shigaraki is a shit villain but not because he's not a polar opposite of Deku, that's not a requirement

This guy was fucking meme tier before getting a random powerup

Except Deku life wasn't as fuck up as Shiggi because of his quirkless. I wouldn't considerate been bullied and can do the job you want are as bad as accidentally kill everyone you know. By making Shiggi backstory like that it remove the parralel between them

I think there were villains with more parallels with Deku than Siggy, like Stain or Gentle.
And I think they only meet each other twice, one after the villain raid to UA and when Deku was trying to save Bakugo and AFO appeared.

What are some mangaka with a solid resume of good villains?

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Just because you say it removes the parallel doesn’t mean it actually does

>Deku had his life suck by not having a quirk
waaaaaaaaaah mommmmmyyyyyy I can't be a suuuperheeeeroooooo like kaa-chaaaaaaaannnnn

This sounds like someone who hasn’t bothered to actually think about what they said. The parallels are there. Both kids were found by their subsequent masters at their lowest moment. One has a deep hatred of heroes for doing nothing positive in his life whereas the other idealizes them as he thinks he’ll never be like them. One had a quirk that ruined his life where the other never got their quirk which messed up theirs life as well. But that’s not even addressing the point that your definition of a good villain is extremely flawed and narrow.

Deku always was after the spotlight. He didn't want to just help people, he specifically wanted to be allmight. He wanted the fame. When he realized he couldn't get into the academy thanks to no quirk, he didn't think to pursue any other noble profession like a firefighter, instead he gave up because in his mind, what's the point if you can't be no.1?

I hear this a lot and I gotta ask did you people just fail to read the first chapter or what? Cause the one I read specifically mentioned he wanted to save people like all Might. I don’t think fame ever entered into it.

Are you retarded? In what way does that remove the parallel? The villian almost always has it worse then the hero.

Brainlet, can't even understand kids manga. Wait few more years before you post again, your brain might develop

That was Gentle. Hori introduced the perfect foil too late.

Dude, fame and glory is part of the equation, even more so because Deku specifically wants to be like his idol All Might. Deku's motivation is similar to early Naruto, who wanted to become Hokage for the recognition of the village that shunned him. Later on Naruto makes friends and decides he wants to protect the village and thus ends up becoming Hokage, making for a good character arc. Deku has literally the opposite development: early on he is presented as a selfless person who puts himself in harms way to save others and thus is worthy of OfA, only to turn out as any other kid attending UA looking for power and recognition, which isn't a bad thing per se but really doesn't help the supposedly underlying thematic of heroes being more than a job. In retrospective even the heroic deed that granted him OfA might even be due to his obsessive attachment to Bakugou.

That the point. The villain backstory is so much worse than Deku that you can't compare them anymore.

Good main villain have something that tied him and the MC together, either it their idea or thematic reasons. It help the narrative and make the conflict more than just bad guy vs good guy.

to be fair though, Deku isn't a very good hero to Shigi. If Hori wasn't so limp-wristedand and wrote Deku not be such a little bitch it would be a lot better, add that to the fact that Deku has interacted with just about every other major villain in every arc more than Shigi so it's not surprising that their dichotomy falls flat. At this point Bakugo is more of a villain to Deku than Shigi (in terms of character not plot)... if not for the fact that Hori wants nothing more than to suck Bakugo's dick 24/7 Bakugo would make a good opposing character to Deku.

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Yeah, the biggest issue seem to be their lack of interaction. Like they met and have conversation once and then we forced to believe they are arch enemies of each other.

And what ties those two together is the centuries long battle between AfO and OfA. Both were taken under the wing of the wielder of one of these quirks and tasked with carrying on their masters will. Not to mention a closer connection through All Might as one idolizes him and the other used to but now hates him for what he did to his master.

>Deku has literally the opposite development: early on he is presented as a selfless person who puts himself in harms way to save others and thus is worthy of OfA, only to turn out as any other kid attending UA looking for power and recognition

You’re going to need to substantiate that claim because a major part of Deku’s character has always been his willingness to put himself in harms way to save others.

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There is no personal connection between Shigaraki and Deku besides what has been passed onto them. Nothing coming from themselves. While Shigaraki does hate All Might and the enemies of AFO, Deku only sees Shigaraki as a particularly evil villain. Not a very compelling setup for a final battle.
I got a similar feeling from Naruto's final boss.

Deku loves Kacchan unconditionally and therefore, from Deku’s perspective, Kacchan can never be a true villain to him.

MHA is primarily about the sins of the father*.

AfO is a perfect antagonist to All Might, but both Shigaraki and Deku must reconcile the destiny their father figure has laid out for them with their own personality, beliefs and agency.

* see also Shoto, Iida, Ochako, etc. A huge part of the show is "how do I deal with the expectations my family has for me".

Ah, but they do. Both of them have the same motivator: All Might. He inspires either tremendous devotion and desire to emulate, or overwhelming hatred and a desire to destroy him and all he protects.

They're each also the designated successor for the two opposite pillars of Hero Society, the Good and the Bad.

>Good main villain have something that tied him and the MC together, either it their idea or thematic reasons. It help the narrative and make the conflict more than just bad guy vs good guy.

this
Shigi and Deku have little binding them other than Shigi hating All Might and Deku idolizing him. Many characters in storydon’t have proper motivations or never act on them if they do. All the heros want to just be hero's and the villains just want to be villains, anything else is treatean excuse to push the plot along rather than a guiding motivation for their actions.

Imagine for a moment that both sides had much more concise ideals and oppsoing viepoints, for example:

Shigi want revenge on hero’s for having failed him and created a society where everyone just relies on hero's to save them rather than taking personal responsibility. Shigi's Crew joins Shigi out of a rejection by society due to the way they were born. They act not out of malice but out of a desire to belong in a society that rejects them due to the social norms their existence violates (Toga's natural fascination with blood for example)

Deku and crew on the other hand are those who fit in to the status quo and as such want to protect it. They are people who have not been failed by hero society and so do not see it's faults. Deku would ironically be the ultimate example of this as even though he was quirkless the worlds greatest hero gives him the chance to deify the constraints of his own birth.

Deku and Shigi would then be diametrically opposed as Deku would be someone who was born powerless with no heroic lineage but becomes a hero by being “saved” while Shigi was born with great power and heroic lineage but becomes a villain due to not being “saved”; their different worldviews and conflict inherited from their predecessors would then naturally put them on a collusion course.

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Except Deku is out of the loop. From Deku perspective, Shiggi is just another villains. All Might, AfO and Shiggi form the biggest conflict of the series while Deku is outside of that conflict.

>Deku loves Kacchan unconditionally and therefore, from Deku’s perspective, Kacchan can never be a true villain to him.

villain was probably a the wrong word to use, antagonist would work better in this case. But my point still stands, Bakugo is more of an opposing force to Deku than Shigi at this point and is a far greater driving force... even if it is to the detriment of his character and the plot as a whole

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So it is your view conflict has to be personal and not situational? That because Shiggy is trying to destroy Hero Society and Deku sees himself as the guy who has to save it and the people in it, that's not sufficient cause for them to be max enemies?

Fine then. Keep in mind Deku is the reason Shiggy didn't get to kill All Might at USJ. If the brat hadn't interfered repeatedly, All Might would be dead. On the flip side, Shiggy almost killed Tsuyu right in front of Deku, had Aizawa (and almost him) beaten to a bloody pulp, and DID almost kill All Might. These two have great reason to hate each other.

>Shiggi
What is this? What kind of esl are you? I’ve never seen someone spell it like that before let alone multiple different people

>Deku and Shigi would then be diametrically opposed as Deku would be someone who was born powerless with no heroic lineage but becomes a hero by being “saved” while Shigi was born with great power and heroic lineage but becomes a villain due to not being “saved”; their different worldviews and conflict inherited from their predecessors would then naturally put them on a collusion course

But that is what is happening

But their conflict is on a superficial level. It's like the conflict between Batman and Poison Ivy or Harley. He oppose them because they are criminals and hurt innocent, but they don't have any thematic or philosophy conflict like Batman and Joker or Batman and Scarecrow.

I am Russian, English is not my first language and I only ever use it on the internet so I probably make mistakes when I write.
Also, only is my post, the other one is someone else

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Too lazy to type his full name

as I said in my post
>anything else is treated as an excuse to push the plot along rather than a guiding motivation for their actions.
We are surmising that rather than the characters displaying it. The most we ever see it displayed is when Shigaraki goeas after Deku in the mall, the rest of the time he is just doing things because reasons

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The character in the story tell us so but that doesn't mean it's true. The moment Deku turned a blind eye to Eri in that alley demonstrates Deku puts his job (lawfully apprehending villains)before the actual act of saving people demonstrates how his mindset doesn't differ much from other students or pro heroes. Does it haunt him afterwards? Yes. Is that any different from any other law enforcers who have to work within the restriction of their job? No.
Deku isn't more altruistic than other people, he is presented as such through dialogue but that doesn't reflect on his actions.
It really isn't that much different from Deku and Bakugou's relationship, which is presented as friendship but is factually far from being one.

The LoV is a garbage collection of Garbage.
Shiggy is the worst of the lot.

But Gentle had a quirk. And he's not really evil.

>Villain and hero MUST have a personal connection

Nah. Why would that be necessary?

Villains don't necessary need a personal connection but they do need some kind of connection with the hero, either on a thematic level or a personal level. If not then their conflict is no difference from the conflict between a bank robber with a superhero.

>Nah. Why would that be necessary?
please point to where I said "Villain and hero MUST have a personal connection", because I am pretty sure I didn't. A hero and villain must have a diametrically opposing goals or ideals or else their would be no conflict.

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One guy who wants to save everyone, and one guy who wants to destroy everyone (with a few exceptions) are not thematically opposed.

Fine.

No I’m gonna have to disagree with you and cite the sports festival.

Deku has every reason to try and win that event. All Might had told him he wanted Deku to win and Deku wanted to prove he was worthy as a hero. He then preceded to risk his chance at victory by instead of focusing on achieving his victory and the glory All Might saw for him he tried to help his classmate get over an emotional hurdle that was holding him back. Deku helping todoroki use his fire side directly resulted in Deku losing. He didn’t do this for fame or glory but simply because he saw someone in need and did what he could to save them.

Yes, that the same rivalry between Thanos and every super heroes in Marvel. Truly that is an epic rivalry of opposite ideology.

Yeah. Characters motivations move the plot forward. I’m not sure what you’d expect.

Ah that’d explain why your posts are so hard to read. Your English needs work.

SHiragaraki stopped being an interesting villain the moment we knew about his main motiviation to wreck shit....a fucking biological need caused by his quirk, this is how you kill a villain, but you can also take a step further and give him jesus like powers. Also Deku a shit, I used to be his fan but Hori did he wrong so much.

Deku did not intend to run out nor did he even consider it, until the moment he saw that it was Kacchan within the Sludge villain’s hold. It was a moment of blind horror far more personal and acute to Deku than the general horror and guilt he’d been experiencing a second prior. Then and only then did he run out.

That’s how Hori set it up. And I don’t say this to take away from Deku’s bravery, I think the fact he was willing to die with Kacchan rather than stand by and watch says a lot about the love and devotion he feels for this boy he’s been fixated on for the past 12 years. But it was not the selfless act of pure heroism that All Might took it to be. There’s a self-interested and even possessive quality to the way Deku is when he’s protecting Kacchan. Mr. Compress even calls Deku out on it mid-kidnapping. And that’s because Deku is fighting to keep that which he cannot bear to live without. When Kacchan was taken, Deku reacted as if part of his own body had been torn away from him. It’s a very different dynamic from that of all his other rescues.

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First of all, Deku never gave up the fight. He fought with his all with victory in his mind, that's why he tried not to bust himself too hard or he would be automatically out for the following round. Secondly it appears to me it's also a matter of pride: Deku genuinely wants to be a strong and cool hero (he literally says so mid battle) and thus winning because his opponent went easy on him doesnt sit well with him.

You’re ignoring the conversation Deku had with All Might afterwards. Deku wanted to win but after hearing about what todoroki was going through he also wanted to help Todoroki and felt like he couldn’t because it wasn’t his business and he was supposed to focus on winning. Until he couldn’t handle it anymore and tried to help him even at the cost of his match. What you’re ascribing to Deku in that bit about pride is the mindset of Bakugou.

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Stain maybe?

Not the guy you are responding to but those are all good points that I missed during my first time through the show. The more the series goes on the more I am convinced that this is some kind projection outlet for Hori's cuck fantasies and there is probably some editor or ghost writer desperately trying to turn Hori's gay fanfic in to decent story. It's such a shame Japs don't really do reboots with manga series, the premise of the manga is great but it's very clear that Hori needs to have the pen slapped out of his hands for it to go anywhere.

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A shitty protagonist and a shitty antagonist, just what mha deserves.

God dammit we were having a semi decent conversation. Fuck off

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I gotta agree with Deku does want to be a hero but more so because he wants to emulate All Might rather than being being cool or strong. Deku's biggest problem and worst attribute is his obsession with Bakugo, which to me feels like Hori projecting some gay cuck fantasy on to the story for personal reasons. A lot of the story would be so much better and more sensical if Bakugo was either a female love interests (a one sided one) or removed from the story all together.

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Stain started killing and injuring heroes because he was against their using the word hero when they got compensated for their work like paid super cops.
But instead of being a vigilante that helped people as a real hero without pay, he started lessening civilian chances of being rescued by harming the people trying to do their job protecting those innocent citizens, he didn't do anything to fix society in anyway despite his big speech.
He calls AM a real hero yet AM was also paid for his work. Stain is too badly written.

No even as he was running he didn’t know why he was trying to save them. It being Bakugou is never shown to have mattered.

I said fuck off. Keep you cuck shit to yourself

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It's literally just one fucking retard pushing this at this point.

Did you forget that crime went down in areas he targeted because heroes fear of him increased attention to those areas? Christ there are legitimate criticisms why do people always seem to use ones that require you to somehow misread the series.

>crime went down in areas he targeted because heroes fear of him increased attention to those areas
That was the heroes doing a better job, they were still paid; Stain just kept damaging their work force.

>MHA kinda lack this dynamic between it main antagonist, Shigaraki and it main hero
Deku is a character who was born quirkless with a fondness of heroes who wants to do his best to save everyone

Shiggy is a character for with a quirk who hates heroes who wants to destroy everything.

How did you miss that?

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This. Hence why Black Manta is so entertaining, he's just an angry nigger who just wants to fuck Aquaman's shit up and makes up bullshit reasons why he antagonizes him so much.

>this aspect of his characterisation is noteworthy, unusual and interesting
>I feel the story would be better if it wasn't in it.
Could you elaborate on why you feel that way? I don't want to stereotype your argument as "it stops me self-inserting because I don't agree with the protagonist".

Bakugou is intended to have a great deal of presence in the story. He's set up with an obviously complementary character arc to Deku: one learns physical confidence and power from his idol, the other learns mental maturity and self-control from the inferior guy he was passed-over for. Their weaknesses are complimented by the other's strengths.

This obviously isn't going to work without some compelling reason for the two to interact; pic related.

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What kind of mental illness forces you to reduce everything to gender swapping? Friendly reminder: the nature of a relationship does not change with the sex of the ones involved in it. A dependant relationship is NOT good regardless if one of the two is female, same goes for a toxic one or an obsessive one. The value of a relationship does NOT change with the sex of the ones involved, what changes is how sexy your deviate mind perceives it

1) they're doing a better job because Stain is applying selective pressure on them
2) if Stain's plan and worldview had no flaws, he wouldn't be a villain or an antagonist to the heroes now, would he? The whole point of the antagonist, especially in Eastern writing, is that their viewpoint is rational, understandable, but *wrong*, and by coming into conflict with the protagonists, whose viewpoint is understandable and *right*, their viewpoint is shown to be wrong because they do not prevail and by extension their philosophy does not prevail.

Deku needs a Lex Luthor-esque villain, no quirks no oh my 7 inherted bullshit, just a powerless dude who pulls himself up via hard work and intelligence, becoming rich, and then trying to help people in need without needing to punch people up and skirt the bureaucratic shit that the heroes have to go throughto do anything(of course to further his own goals), representing the true potential of humanity, but in a twisted way.

Thank fuck you're not a writer

That actually an interesting ideas. Someone who resent the quirk society because of his quirkless nature so he seek to destroy it, make everyone equal to him.

Why do mouth-breathing herofags always have at least 3 threads up

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Would make a good elseworld scenario where Deku becomes a quirkless villain.

Yes, but in the main story Deku is a hero so a foil to him would be like that.

>selective pressure
>their viewpoint is rational, understandable, but *wrong*, and by coming into conflict with the protagonists, whose viewpoint is understandable and *right*

user he is going "reee stop calling yourselves heroes, heroes don't get paid, but I'll overlook All Might because fuck you" and all Deku's view point was "no, that is bad, stop it."
It looked like they wanted a cool villain character to show up and make Iida more important to show that Deku can do combo moves with his friends but they scrapped that for the Sasuke retrieval arc because Bakugo was too popular.

Honest answer. Most threads are started by shitposters who just spam bnha shit to ostracize the fandom. I’m guessing they want it to end up like Naruto. I saw three obvious bait threads in the catalog besides this one.

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God damn man I don’t know how you can fail to read a kids comic this hard.

>It's the hatefags not us
Cope

You know I'm right. Stain was a shit villain and his character is badly written.

>Stain is not a good character because his worldview is flawed and not rational
If his worldview were completely rational and there were nothing wrong with it, he wouldn't be a villain. I feel like you're just reiterating the point of that bit of the story then going "Aha!".

I don’t use that term it’s stupid. It’s just shitposters. Every series has them. Ours are just extra autistic.

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That was ridiculous .This sounds like some fake death note rip off. Except kira actually killed the ones doing crimes not the people doing their best to stop crimes. Heroes are still himan and not perfect. The fact is by only killing heroes it means less people can be saved. It also means the villians out number the heroes. Lida brother was doing an excellent job and this crackpot still severed his spinal cord for no good reason. He was the leader of a respected agency and was very humble and honest

They also increased their effort becuase there was a massive man hunt to catch stain specfically.

I mean you don’t even understand why Stain saw All Might as different. You’ve managed to completely miss stains views on a proper hero and for some reason think the only thing was them getting paid. I hope this is an act because otherwise you’re literally stupider than children.

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>Iida
Something you also seem to have missed (and apologies if you haven't) is that BnHA is an ensemble show, and it's not always about Deku.

Stain is a foil for Iida, not Deku.

The conflict in this story arc is between Stain ("Heroes should be motivated from a position of altruism; good deeds are nothing without good intentions") and Iida ("being a hero is my duty and my job, and doing good is objectively good. Without the societal structure I operate within, I could not do so much good.").

so much this.

>Could you elaborate on why you feel that way? I don't want to stereotype your argument as "it stops me self-inserting because I don't agree with the protagonist".

It just makes little sense to me why Deku is so obsessed with Bakugo when all the latter has done is bully him since child hood, if it was out of some misplaced sense of romantic attachment it would at least make sense but right now all I see is masochism.

>one learns physical confidence and power from his idol, the other learns mental maturity and self-control from the inferior guy he was passed-over for.

that would be great if it was actually true but no matter how many times the two should ahve learned those lessons from one another by now they don't. Bakugo is still a prick to everyone who lashes out at the smallest provocation and Deku runs around after him like a lost puppy; it was fine at the beginning but as the series goes on and neither progresses it looks to me that there is something else going on

>What kind of mental illness forces you to reduce everything to gender swapping? Friendly reminder: the nature of a relationship does not change with the sex of the ones involved in it.

probably the same mental illness that makes people think that the relationship between characters doesn't change if the sexes were different. Sex plays a huge role in how people interact and the motivations and behaviors they exhibit towards one another. Deku's relationship with Bakugo is unhealthy and would be even if Bakugo was female (arguably more so) but my problem with it isn't with the sex aspect but the motivation aspect, I just don't understand Deku's obsession with Bakugo and the detrimental effect it has on the story and character development, particularly how every noble aspect of Deku's personality is destroyed and replaced with that of a stalker with Stockholm syndrome when it comes to Bakugo. In terms of a foil or rival to Deku Todaroki serves that role far better.

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>Hurt/kill heroes who don’t live up to insane standards
>Increased hero presence to catch him
>More heroes means more low level villains get caught
>Less overall crime in that area

It’s not hard to understand

>Lida
There's no way you could make that typo unless you'd never seen the show.

They are both their masters successor and need to move forward with their goals even though they don't have any personal conflict fate would have them be put against each other

They used Stain for a poster boy for the villains to gather around but his giving AM a free pass doesn't even line up with his own ideals, even with all his good intentions AM is still paid as a part of the system Stain hates. It isn't just flawed or irrational, it is inconsistent. Stain isn't properly utilized and that makes him a bad villain to be a foil for deku which was the point of the discussion started by this post

We weren't talking about Stain being a foil for Iida.

user. The issue wasn’t simply that heroes got paid for their work it was the evolution of heroes becoming celebrities and focusing more on their fame, public image, and competing against other heroes to be #1 than actually being a hero. That was what upset Stain. Come on dude this is basic stuff

Except Deku is the MC, he should have a connection with the main antagonist more than my master hate your master. Heck, they barely interact with each others. Take Kenichi for a good example of this kind of dynamic. Kenichi actually have time to interact with the disciple of the his master rival/enemies

Here's what's wrong with both Deku and Shigaraki.
Their goals are not their own. Deku tries to be like All Might and Shigaraki tries to be like AfO.
If Hori wants to keep interest he'll let both develop their own ideals.
He needs to stop drawing bunnies and make shit happen.

KEK. Deku doesn’t have to know why he’s doing it. He was still triggered by Kacchan into doing it. And saying Bakugou is never shown to have mattered is equally retarded. He’s being shown to matter in that very second. That’s a reveal.

>We weren't talking about Stain being a foil for Iida
Well you fucking should have been, because this is the whole point of the arc. It is not about Stain's conflict with Deku (and by extension All Might), the arc is actually about Iida, and Deku is merely a supporting observer in it.

It's not like he does absolutely nothing or doesn't justify his presence in the story, but it is *fundamentally not about him*.

The Stain arc is all about Iida, it's his story and his conflict, and if you don't understand that you'll have real problems understanding this particular slice of YA fiction. You'll be asking things like "why isn't Stain a good foil for Deku?" and "why doesn't Stain's philosophy make any sense when you think about it?".

Stain's philosophy doesn't make sense upon deep inspection because it's the inverse of Iida's, which does.

>Take Kenichi for a good example of this kind of dynamic.
Kenichi has no connection with Yami over any of the disciples masters or students since they're literally thrust to him in the most generic fucking way possible.

The problem is that deku is a shit protagonist with little development so you cant expect the antagonist to be dine well.

Yes, but then he have time to interact with the rest of Yami and build up their opposing ideology with each members.

Its more logical that the petty shop lifters would get ignored becuase the big fish terrorist is a higher priority. What stain did was create a hot zone. He made a big crime so security and man power in that area will be beefed up temporarily. But, those resources have to be pulled away from somewhere else. A result is people in the epicenter are more secure but people on the outer parts are less secure

>Their goals are not their own
Deku wants to save people because the reason why he admires heroes. Shiggy hates heroes because his father instill in that philosophy to hate them and he followed suit when nobody but AfO would save him.

Seriously is this story too hard for some of you?

>, but then he have time to interact with the rest of Yami and build up their opposing ideology with each members.
No they don't. The only character that had his philosophy opposed was the Russian bro, the loli never really had a say in anything since they were trying to convert her from the beginning and the rest never really have their philosophies dismantled they just quit because Synn rushed the shit out of everything.

The problem is, destroying Hero Society wouldn't eliminate that 80% of people are born with quirks. It would just eliminate the structure put in place to control that. Someone who was angry because they were quirkless would either work on finding a way to get a quirk - which thanks to Ujiko, we know CAN be done scientifically - or go the Overhaul route and want to eliminate everyone else's quirk.

No they shouldn't, because one of the main themes of BnHA is living up to the expectations of the previous generation.

Shoto struggles with the senseless competition Endevour has foisted on him. All Might strove to be the hero Nana trusted him to become. Iida struggles to live up to the ideal of Ingenium. Deku and Shigaraki have to deal with being the successor of OfA/AfO, and being thrust into a conflict they didn't ask for.

This is one of the fundamental themes of MHA, and if Deku and Shigaraki naturally fell into conflict with each other, there would then be no conflict between who they themselves are and what their circumstances expect them to be.

Well, i was better at first to be honest, i enjoy his interation with the Russian guy and how the loli ideology got dismantle by the power of cake and friendship.

>If Hori wants to keep interest he'll let both develop their own ideals.

With Shigaraki I could see him developing his own ideals built on his disdain for the society that failed to protect him (from himself mostly) but what Deku really develop in to without major changes to the story? His entire sense of heroism is built on his worship of All Might and his desire to emulate him, short of AFO being revealed to be his dad I don''t see much changing that.

>He needs to stop drawing bunnies and make shit happen.

Why not both? Miruko would make a great teacher for Deku, she could help him develop his kick based fighting style and maybe help him build up some confidence; their personalities are also polar opposites and would play off one another well.

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What I mean is their methods are just too constrained.
Shiggy relies on the doc same as AfO, never mind that his motives are really shallow.
And Deku hasn't really asked himself how he would make hero society work when it fails on so many points.
They both lack a clear purpose of their own.

That's literally what's right about them. You're just stating the message of the show.

>Deku wants to save people because the reason why he admires heroes.
I'm not the guy you're responding but this is the problem, its shallow. Deku is basically stuck at the beginning of the hero's journey with a call to action from his mentor figure. Normally the mentor teaches the hero and gives him his world view etc. of the world and the conflict. Hori seems to have done this to the extreme that. Literally every aspect of deku from his costume to his powers to where hes going to school to his fucking room is all might. If it was any other writer I'd call it a deconstruction because it seems so self aware.

But that's where it ended. Normally the hero moves on and forms his own ideas or disagrees with his mentor or does something to distance himself from the childlike admiration of trust of the mentor.

But there isn't. We're still stuck at the beginning of the journey where deku's entire character can be summed up as "he wants to save people because he idolizes heroes"

He is damaging the chances of civilians being rescued and villians being captured all because of his definition of the word hero, that isn't a good enough reason to be a villain standing in front of Deku as a foil in my opinion. Giving AM a free pass is just a very annoying inconsistency.

I wasn't discussing Iida even if that was the point of the arc.
I was discussing Stain as a foil for Deku in reply to the idea of Stain being put forth as a good foil for Deku, not Iida, by an user; that is what my posts focused on. Iida barely gets any attention now anyway.

There's no reason criminals who use quirks couldn't be handled by fair and equitable rule-of-law rather than some privateer doling out justice where and when he sees fit.

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I feel like hori already knows what he has to do for deku because he already implied it early on. The hero society that all might was helping to prop up is flawed. Which by extension means to an extent that all might and possibly his ideals are flawed. WHICH since deku is basically the #1 AM fanboy means he is flawed or his views on the world are flawed.

The system needed to be torn down, all might needed to die so deku couldn't go to him for questions, and then his self doubt would have led to an inner conflict represted by an outer conflict and hed have to introspect and come to an answer on what this society should be.

haha that's gay here have another tournament arc

Yeah, letting All Might live kinda robbed the MC of any chance he could learn to be independence.

>I'm not the guy you're responding but this is the problem, its shallow
How is it shallow? It doesn't matter where he got his inspiration from if he genuinely wants to save people.

>Normally the mentor teaches the hero and gives him his world view etc. of the world and the conflict.
But that's exactly what happened. All Might told Deku that he can't save everyone, he has to pay for his reckless actions on many occasions and ultimately he's told that in order to save people you need the desire to win. This comic isn't trying to be edgy by saying that Deku is wrong for his views just that he's still very much immature thinking that's all what it takes to be a hero.

It was a "have your cake and eat it too" moment where hori couldn't commit to killing him off and so hoped losing his power would be an adequate substitute and it wasnt.

I think it makes for a more interesting dynamic if Deku does change because he has to go against All Might who is still there.
But it's meaningless if he doesn't.

God this thread is awful. Mha is a shonen manga for kids/teens. It blows my mind that so many people in this thread completely ignore the general message it's trying to get across and instead hyperfocus on small parts that don't have nearly as much to do with the story as is CLEARLY defined.

Stain was meant to be a foil to ida. He was meant to knock him down after he chose to break protocol specifically for revenge and who wanted to be a hero because it was part of the family business.

Stain is later recontextualized as having an ideology that allowed shig to convince others to join him. Shig and deku are pretty damn diametrically opposed.

The issue with you retards is that you want some Kafkaesque villain with a million pages of writing behind him, not a shonen comic about superheros.

Like said, Deku have to learn to handle things his own way, learn to be independently. Keep All Might around mean that Deku can always come to him for answer. For example if someone like Jiraiya still alive that mean Naruto could always come to ask him how to deal with Sasuke situation rather come to his own conclusion.

>How is it shallow? It doesn't matter where he got his inspiration from if he genuinely wants to save people.
My apologies the ideal itself isn't shallow it's just insufficient as a motivation for the progagonist. At a certain point it should have changed and become something more. Because on it's own it cant sustain the narrative. ESPECIALLY because literally every other student in his class also has that same desire to be the best hero they can.

The problem is that it's been over 25p chapters and deku is still immature. His views are too static and idealized and it's exactly why there has been jack shit when it comes to character development.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you and say that All Might dying would have been the easy way out.

The central conflict of the show is that Deku must discard All Might's vision, because (while effective) it's just a bandaid that ameliorates the worst aspects of the Hero Society, and instead create his own vision of a society with rule-of-law where everyone is treated equally and there's no heroes, just policemen with quirks.

If All Might just died, that would remove his philosophy from the show without it needing to be confronted. Instead, Deku must look his lifelong idol in the eye and say "you accomplished great things, but I see now you were wrong".

I don't get this. You can argue that they're simple but not really constrained. Shiggy's action made UA take the knee and made the government take into consideration that the villains were a threat to society again.

Hero society isn't really on Deku's mind to begin with he wants to be the greatest hero by following the philosophy led by All Might yeah when he grows and sees that the hero society isn't black and white then he would surely try to change it but that's not his goal.

>There's no reason criminals who use quirks couldn't be handled by fair and equitable rule-of-law rather than some privateer doling out justice where and when he sees fit.

Alright, how would you create " fair and equitable rule-of-law " in a society where people are so incredibly unequal? We can't even do that IRL, just look at how much bias is introduced in in any legal system when you mix in race and gender not to mention the big one, money. You are telling me that you can somehow create s standard of justice in a system where supernatural abilities are common place?

Lets just examine one aspect of law, enforcement. How do you create a standard protocol for capture and arrest of individuals who have vastly differing abilities that could potentially cause untold amounts of damage or even turn the police force on itself? You would need a task force with specialists for each class of supernatural abilities... Oh wait, that exactly what hero's are.

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No.
One user put Stain up as a foil for Deku and I replied with that in mind.
Read the reply chain next time before bring up Iida's arc as a whole when that wasn't the point we were discussing in the first place.

All for One even comments that All Might should've let himself die so I don't think it's just Hori pussying out

Bingo even naruto managed to do it right to an extent by having pervy sage die and moving naruto on from "I wanna be hokage!" It tied into the greater narrative at large as it should be. Especially since it already exists. All Might is the symbol of peace and Deku is going to have to replace him. That means propping up this same hero society that is clearly flawed.

Even if deku chooses to do that there needs to be at least something there to make this less of a one track narrative

The problem is that this is hori. Hes been struggling to get deku out of the initial stages of the heroes journey and connected his personal journey with the greater narrative at play here for almost 250 fucking chapters. Killing all might would be the easy, if flawed way to do it because what he did instead clearly isn't working

>loli has a quirk that can erase others quirks
>not a single suggestion of using those on the essentially terrorist villains

So your problem is long-form writing? The entire story so far has covered what, 18 months in wall time?

How much have you changed over the course of 18 months? Were you a radically different person in your second year of high school compared to your first? When was the last time someone said something to you and you went "holy shit you're right" and then the next day you were a different person?

MHA's realistic gradual character development is one of the best things about it. All the things you're complaining haven't happened will happen, just give the characters some fucking time. That's how actual real people change.

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Explain to me what makes Shigaraki a good villain.
Because so far the only thing he has done is wanting to kill heroes. People often shitpost about Deku being given everything but this goes doubly for Shigaraki.
While Deku was given a tool for success, Shigaraki was given an entire arsenal of Nomus, was brainwashed to be a hateful little shit and got veterans of AfO's organization. Even his further success was because of Stain.
Talking about Deku, Shigaraki is the real puppet, let's call Shigaraki Deku from now on because that's what he is, a wooden puppet.

That was literally spelled out by Afo. It comes a time when the pupil need to stand up on his own. Shigaraki got that, Deku still has his crutch

>18 months
>250 chapters
That's the problem. If hori trimmed the fat and took all the filler and irrelevant arcs out maybe you're right the current pace would be sufficient

>For example if someone like Jiraiya still alive that mean Naruto could always come to ask him how to deal with Sasuke situation rather come to his own conclusion.
Jiraiya was never sympathetic in regards to helping Naruto with his personal problems and Naruto would have never went to him to begin with hell Naruto never went to anybody in regards to what to do with Sasuke because it was a foregone conclusion.

I wouldnt even mind so much if the story was self aware but it doesn't seem to be

Does Deku even have a philosophy?

>those resources have to be pulled away from somewhere else. A result is people in the epicenter are more secure but people on the outer parts are less secure
Agreed

>it is difficult so it shouldn't be tried
Good, good. Don't rock the boat, be a good citizen.

Seriously though, it's like you're ignoring all the hints that Hero Society is anything other than fucking fantastic and a perfect way of doing things.

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There are multiple times where naruto even flat out says he wishes pervy sage was still there so that he could ask him what he should do.

Hell naruto took the mantel from his mentor and went on to try and save society where he couldn't

What is AfO masterplan for Shiggy anyways. Is he planning to give him AfO eventually or he groomed Shiggy as a general and orator who applies environmental and social pressure on the system Allmight had built.
At this point Shigaraki can either one shot Deku or job to him hard.

But Jiraiya also one of the few people Naruto would talk to about his issues and he actually wise enough to give his own reason for Naruto to considerate. Jiraiya was in a particular position, he was Naruto god-father and his father figure while also had deal with a similar situation in Orchimaru.

Yes its exactly what all mights js

Thank god we've got Nagasaki to do that for us.

Shiggy seems to like the idea of being the boss - the moment Overhaul suggested HE was more capable of being the next AfO, Shiggy immediately turned hostile - and he's also driven by intense hatred of All Might, as well as a more general hatred of everything and a desire and plan to destroy him and it. Those goals would seem to be his own.

Is there anything about him that not All Might's?

>. Keep All Might around mean that Deku can always come to him for answer.

that's assuming All Might would have answers. I totally agree with that killing All Might is an easy way out. More so than
>"you accomplished great things, but I see now you were wrong".
a far more impactful bit would be for All Might to not have answers, forcing Deku to not only see All Might as a fallible but also to stand in his predecessors place and go from there, inheriting both his answers and his questions about the right way of doing things.

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But its hints nothing more. The most hope I had for this story was when shiggy took deku aside and pointed out how flawed their society was. How easy it would be to bring it crashing down

ONLY THEN TO WATCH BEHIND A TELEVISION IN THE BACKGROUND

I swear as good as Stain was as a villain, to an extent, putting shiggy on the sidelines fucked his development

> That the point.
Are you retarded?

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No and that's the problem.

Which is the problem.
His bratty doesn't want to lose attitude is mostly born out of AfO grooming him.
He has no will of his own and he never figured out why or what he wanted to do.
You can't have a main antagonist just be a victim. So hopefully at some point Hori gets rid of him.

Shiggy should have been the face of the villain uprising instead of stain. Instead he just became kind of aimless in the background for like a half dozen more arcs while hori struggled to think of what to do

Since the issue was clearly talked about, the story must be self aware. You don't need to address something right away, and the fact that AM is still alive (so Deku immaturity) hasn't got a chance to be an issue, yet. It may very well be in the current arc though

>Protege of Hero with one all powerful quirk has multiple quirks
>Protege of villain with multiple quirks has one single all powerful quirk
But none of almost that really matters cause I just wanna masturbate to Mina

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That's because shiggy is the antithesis to the idea of a hero i.e. AM as the Symbol of Peace, not Deku as a person. Deku still has to work up to speaking for heroes isn't going to contrast properly with Shiggy until he manages to prove AM was right himself.

>He has no will of his own and he never figured out why or what he wanted to do.
Ironically enough that's deku's problem as well hes just exactly what all might is. All might might not have groomed him but the result is the same they are just literally a mini version of their mentor
>You don't need to address something right away
Dude again its been 250 chapters it's time to actually connect it to the greater society at large here.

This is the distinction.
Hopefully Hori builds on it.

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>Shigaraki tries to be like AfO
Shiggy literally wants to destroy everything.
AfO doesn’t want that and did a poor job teaching him by caving into Shiggy’s autistic manchild demands while constantly bailing him out.
Overhaul was a much better villain in terms of goals by far.

>>it is difficult so it shouldn't be tried
nice strawman. You still dodged the question, how would you go about it?
Assuming it's even possible. Keep in mind that such an attempt would be playing with the lives of millions on the hope that somehow we can make a better system when we have no evidence to show that we can on top of the fact that the current system works (even if it isn't perfect). It's not like humanity has tried shit like this in the past only for it to end in burtal dictatorships, gulags, and mass starvation... every single time.

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It's almost like those questions would be really interesting coming from the progagonist
>do I keep propping up this flawed hero society in the name of the greater good
>or do I risk it all and do the right thing

I think the problem here is that Hori clearly have a plan about Shigaraki from the start but because the story keep drag out and many development wasn't planned so the story direction was change but Hori still keep his original ideas about Shigaraki without taking other new development into consideration.

What's shiggy purpose now in the story?

all might was the #1 most beloved hero and gave deku his quirk.
there’s no way deku can set himself apart unless he stops trying to become a good hero.

You could have stopped at "Shigaraki isn't a good villain"

OR
And here me out
He realizes All Might his mentor isn't perfect

Job to Deku.

We all know that best antagonists/villains are written by Togashi-sensei. Toguro, Sensui, Hisoka, Phantom troupe, Meruem, Pouf. All some of the best enemies ever put to manga.

Hori clearly plan gor Shiggy to became the final villains but he seriously lacking development mainly because the plot take some any side quest that Shiggy can't get involve in all. Now we have a very under develop main antagonist.

>a societal model that is literally working right now for billions of people can't work here because batman
>how is it even possible to replace batman with democratic society and rule of law
>it would be really difficult and I can't see a way to do it
Sorry, dude. It's not my job to explain how society can work, it's the author's. I'm just picking up what he's laying down and showing you because you didn't notice and walked by.

That Hero Society doesn't really work is mentioned and shown repeatedly, as is that it's going to end up being replaced with something more normal. You probably should have noticed.

>199869540
We get it you're an attention seeking faggot but theres already a HxH thread up I'm sure your fellow pasta eating retards would happily entertain you user

I used to think the skintone in the manga suggested she was tan brown.
Tan Mina > Pink Mina

>There are multiple times where naruto even flat out says he wishes pervy sage was still there so that he could ask him what he should do
No he didn't. Also Jiraiya wouldn't even have known the best answer to give Naruto.
All that was during the in between of Part I and Part II. He's largely absent from Naruto in Part II.

that’s the problem, all might was pretty much the perfect hero who constantly tried to save everyone.
he has no bad qualities like endeavor.

> It just makes little sense to me why Deku is so obsessed with Bakugo when all the latter has done is bully him since child hood, if it was out of some misplaced sense of romantic attachment it would at least make sense but right now all I see is masochism.
Have you ever considered that Deku's sense of attachement is just that strong? It's the kind of behaviour that can be observed among young children with overprotective parents. They don't know much about how the world works and so they don't consider that letting your "friends" bully you is largely considered the same as bending over and taking it up the ass. They don't know how reputation and social standing works so they just hung around the cool dude who sometimes bully you but is still cool. You sure there were no momma boys like that around when you were a kind?

> Bakugo is still a prick to everyone who lashes out at the smallest provocation and Deku runs around after him like a lost puppy; it was fine at the beginning but as the series goes on and neither progresses it looks to me that there is something else going on
Except he had matured by now and no in the UA have been taking his shit from the very beginning. In the knew environment he is not a superstar - he is on equal footing with everyone.

> I just don't understand Deku's obsession with Bakugo
Again, have you ever considered that Deku literally had no friends other than Bakugo? That would explain everything.

I enjoy this manga so it being slow is not a problem on itself. The problem is that in addition to that chapter are less than 20 (usually less than 15) pages long so everything takes forever. A fast pace works with long or short chapter but a slow pace needs long chapters

He wouldn't know the best answer, yes. But he can give his own input due to his history with Orochimaru and give Naruto someone to talk to about Sasuke.

The story literally spells this out to you.

There is no main Batman villain. The biggest villain so far was Bane because he forced Batman into a years long retirement, realtime.

This art looks pretty good. But I have a feeling if I look it up it's going to be drawn by a yaoi artist.

Your problem here is that Deku is still a student. And a confined one at that. He can perceive what's happening in his society only through a mirror, but it's been widely hinted that both society and heroes are actually changing. The students can see only the result of it, see the chapter of the interviews, where Mineta wonders what happened to Mt. Lady to change her attitude. Deku has absolutely no role in that. That may be a flaw in AM character if anything, it seems strange to me that after all he did, he feels no need to help society transition into the next era.
And about deku's relationship with AM, there really hasn't been any reason to address it yet. The first major conflict is only happening now

Ah. But that's what they've got. The heroes are actually government employees not much different from police, licensed and monitored by superiors. If Deku's training is any indication they've operating under some pretty strict guidelines ("Don't kill, don't inflict unnecessary property damage, don't use your power for your own benefit or in pursuit of your own desires"). It's not clear they actually have powers of arrest or direction greater than any citizen. That a sort of Billboard popularity cult has grown up around them is understandable, but not germane to their job...

Oda. Crocodile, Enel, Blackbeard and Sakazuki are all great villains. He also has a lot of shit villains like Lucci and Van der Decken, but that's part of the package deal.

All Might will leave once Deku becomes the hero he wants to be. The entire story has been centered on Deku branching away from All Might and becoming his own hero. The Jiraiya comparison doesn't even work since he was never an active participant of Naruto's life as All Might is to Deku.

This is true. There have been hints that Deku is seeing the flaws in the system but is still so blinded by his admiration for All Might, and still so driven to protect and defend, he hasn't gone from 'this is wrong' to 'this is wrong and should be changed', which is a big step. But Stain, Overhaul, Gentle, each of them have made powerful impressions on him. I think he'll get there, eventually.

>Crocodile, Enel, Blackbeard and Sakazuki are all great villains.
Thanks for the laugh

Not really. His vision on society relying on a single pillar is majorly flawed. And he never publicly addressed that issue, not even when it became quite clear that he couldn't put up that facade forever. He preferred to hide himself. He watched most of the other heroes slack off without speaking a word and now he's watching someone else try to pick up the pieces of the society he worked so hard to build without moving a single finger

I think it's fair to say he's already there. He just doesn't feel he's strong enough to enforce it.

The fact that anyone is having this much in-depth discussion shows how much of an impact Shigiraki has had. Hell there was that infamous tweet that stated that the MVA arc was a taboo because you shouldn't have your readers sympathize with the villains.

Aren't people here are discussing how shit Shiggy is?

Stain was a fucking AM fanboy, nothing more than a villian obsesed with his idealized image of AM

Shit main villain
Shit main character
It works like magic

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Just people going about his character and what they think works and doesn't work.

I guess that is true

>Shiggy
>Underdeveloped

Retard

This. How many threads do we have discussing fucking Muzan or Orochi?

>infamous tweet that stated that the MVA arc was a taboo
What.

He and Deku dynamic is under develop. They met once at the mall and that it. No more contact for a long time, even when All Might confront AfO

> Glad that people are pointing out how bad your main villain is

>He and Deku dynamic is under develop
How is it under developed when it makes up the bulk of the narrative?

More so that people are calling the people calling him bad retards who can't follow a kids manga.

Because they barely interact. heck even his minion have more contact with Deku than him.

>I just don't understand Deku's obsession with Bakugo
Deku’s behavior towards Bakugo makes a lot more sense if you acknowledge that Deku loves him DEEPLY (whether that’s a platonic or romantic love is a separate matter).

The next thing you have to acknowledge is that love is not rational and it’s not necessarily a positive thing. In fact, love can be enslaving and profoundly self-destructive. Hence, where Deku finds himself.

You also have to acknowledge that for various reasons, Deku “fell” (for lack of a better word) for Bakug a long time ago and he’s never been able to let that go. At this point, I don’t think it’s within his control. Even when he’s been provoked and is out right fighting Bakugo, he is besiege by memories of “Kacchan”. (We’ve seen this happen multiple times.) And those memories conquer any inclination Deku has to distance himself from Bakugo. If anything, they only work to bind Deku ever closer.

So, it’s not something like fear that keeps Deku bound to Bakugo, it’s love. A love that trumps any and everything Bakugo has ever done.

That’s why I don’t believe Deku will ever be able to move on from “Kacchan”. If Bakugo himself was unable to destroy that love, it’s safe to assume that nothing ever will.

>Has main villain explain to hero why hero not dying is a bad thing and why his student will do better
>Has story proceed to show villain’s pupil struggling without AfO and eventually become greater for it
>user thinks story isn’t self aware

Reminder. Nobody hates Deku as much as Horikoshi does.

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Yusuke only met Togaro twice throughout the duration of the Dark Tournament arc.

Jotaro only saw DIO during the final battle

Josuke never fucking met Kira until the final battle and only has been with him for killing a character he didn't even like.

Kenshin didn't meet Makoto ONCE before the final battle.

Gon never met Meruem

Question. Why does everyone hark on MHA for every little thing yet ignore everything else?

Jesus this faggot is obessed with pushing this narrative

See
This ain't an argument

You mean Horikoshi?

Better yet Luffy has only met BB two times through the story.

How often do you think All Might and AfO interacted? Do you think they had a monster of the week back and forth? Because from what we’ve seen it looks like AfO murdered Nana, Toshinori fled to the states to get stronger, then he came back to Japan and proceeded to dismantle AfO and his operation.

It's not like he actually needs to. As the show has progressed, their relationship has gone from one-sided hero worship to bilateral rivalry. Bakugou has come to realise that he's not the hot shit to end all hot shit, and if he doesn't deal with his flaws he will be surpassed. He's already realised that Deku has things to teach him, and there's no reason not to expect that their relationship will grow into actual healthy friendship.

All might was motivated by personal reason, this created personal motivation for AM. Yes they may not interact much but their existence leave an impact on the other.

Nah, Deku should've been a girl so we could watch and see if Tumblr hated Bakugo's abuse of her or found it hot.

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So you’re saying killing their master is enough to give someone a believable personal reason but attempting to do that, attempting to kill his classmates, and kidnapping one of them is not enough of a believable personal reason.

Do I have that right?

But Shiggy failed at all of that. Plus most of the time Deku never have a chance to resent Shiggy or hold a grudge with him.

I want to fuck Jirou

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>kidnapping one of them
By which you mean his longest and closest friend, right?

Yeah. He was stopped by Deku. Hence why Shiggy has had a personal special hatred of Deku since he stopped him from killing All Might. He has been holding a grudge whereas Deku just sees the LoV as a threat who have tried to hurt the people he cares about multiple times. Your “They don’t have personal reasons” argument is weak as fuck

He is just a rabid dog without direction or purpose and that exists only to denote that there are villains in this story.

It's even funnier if you think that the reason baku was involved in the first place was deku's fault

>It being Bakugou is never shown to have mattered.
Decuck triggered again.

What would be an actual good villain
>villian that hates heroes
>wants to eradicate all the mutants and return humanity back to the way it was before
>hates all might for propping up society as the symbol of peace
>learns deku was quirkless and got OFA and despises him for it
>uses other villains as a means to an end to destroy hero society with plans to turn on then later

Prove me wrong

>Villain that hates heroes.

For what, we all know Hori couldn´t live up to another villain in that category at all.

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I think itd be less that he hates heroes and more so he hates those with quirks.

Never be a writer

Pic unrelated.

If only this was the actual end to the series. Passing OFA on shouldn't be some small thing, and deserves to have a kind of finality to it.
I still think the end of the series will see Deku losing OFA, likely with both OFA and AFO ending.

Fire Punch
Chainsawman
BLAME!
Berserk (Griffith in particular)
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (Especially Valentine)
Toriko
Bobobo
Hellsing

Quirk genocide when? Surely there's some sort of terrorist group for quirkless people.

>Fire Punch
>Chainsawman
>Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
>Toriko
>Bobobo
>Hellsing

This is clearly a joke list

At this point I sorta expect that Hiro will just shoehorn in Deku wanting to 'save' Shigaraki as the final arc and will try to justify it by playing up All Might's connection to him/how it's the ultimate defeat of A4O's goals.

Wasn’t that the group the LoV killed at the start of the mva?

I can see it coming to that although if it gets to that I’d expect Shiggy to pull a lucia from Rave Master and flat out reject the help.