ITT post emotionally manipulative works

>post emotionally manipulative works
You mean every art ever created?

Uhhhhhhhhhh future diary

Viral's dream is the most effective emotional moment in the series, and it doesn't employ any trickery.

There's a very big difference between a work that respects its audience enough to allow it an emotional response of its own, and somehting like Grave of Fireflies that attempts way too hard to get into the viewers head and force a reaction of sorts.

>show makes you feel something
>that's bad
>show doesn't make you feel something
>that's bad
What.

This garbage.

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yes

Not really. One is more hamfisted but the goal is the same at the end of the day.
Use better words to make your meaning clear if you don't want people to call you an idiot like the thread is doing.

>oh my god the guy who's taking OPs stance must be OP
Crawl back into your cave your dimwitted mongrel.

OP's stance is retarded, so I guess that makes you a fellow retard. Either way learn to be more clear about what you mean if you want people to take you serious.
Protip, stringing insults isn't the way to do that either.

TTGL only manipulated me into fapping to Yoko

This. I don't even know what's emotionally manipulative meant to be, specially since Grave of the Fireflies always felt very tryhard and I can't see when Tengen Toppa tried that hard.

But nobody wants you to take them seriously. Nobody cares for your worthless posts or opinions. I simply submitted the post to show you how dimwitted you actaully are. Whether or not you "agree" is irrelevant, given how my statement is very much factual. You're not intelligent enough to comment on such topics if you unironically think all animation is being made with sole purpose of making the midwit audience feel a specific emotion. Artistic expression is significantly more multilayered than that, and only the forced and hamfisted trash can be categorized as what you proclaim for all animation to be.

Now that was shit

>you unironically think all animation is being made with sole purpose of making the midwit audience feel a specific emotion
No one said that

>moving the goalpost and putting words into the other user's
pseudo intellectuals really need to off themselves.

>No one said that
>The entire point is that the studio wants you to react or feel a certain way to whatever's on screen.

Maybe proof-read your own posts prior to submitting, cumguzzler.

That's not what it says, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

>how dare a story try to make me feel emotions, this is manipulation
user...

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It was the other way around for me.
I started fapping to yoko and then started watching TTGL because of it

Wow, OP, you just described fiction in general.

Not OP. There's a difference between art that wants you to feel something, and art that uses cheap ploys and hackneyed tricks to do it. TTGL is the latter, it's a story for the Saturday morning cartoon crowd with some vaguely adult trappings.

>uses cheap ploys and hackneyed tricks to do it. TTGL is the latter, it's a story for the Saturday morning cartoon crowd with some vaguely adult trappings.
explain how, because those are just a bunch of empty buzzwords right now.

>ITT: Dishonest narrative

Art is emotional manipulation. The 1st failure of a piece is to provoke no reaction. The 2nd failure is to provoke the wrong reaction.

The only things that belong outside this thread are shows so boring that no one remembers them to post them.

Shounenspics and the pigs who eat moeslop wouldn't be able to tell the difference between art and cheap tricks if you explained it to them a thousand times. They're just not intellectually capable

Just call it forced feels or something

"Oh no, we need to power up THIS much to beat the bad guys."
"Guys, if we all put our effort in, we'll break through."
"You can tell that this is an epic moment because I'm yelling everything I say."

This sort of plot structure and thinking about the world has nothing to do with reality. It can only exist in the mind of a child. There's catharsis, which is fine in art, and then there's this certain kind of catharsis that poor anime writers like to indulge in.

t. pseudo intellectual teenager

>doesn't bother to actually explain the difference
>y-you're too stupid to get it anyways!!
lol okay man.
So a leader pumping up his crew via a passionate speech is childish? Dang, all those famous leaders who gave great speeches are so childish...

If you're equating a work that is realistic with it being well written you're gravely mistaken. Making it realistic is just an easy and good way to make it relatable. Nothing more. Claiming it's "childish" is just an cope out for the lack of any better argument.

It just seems you will give me empty claims and buzzwords. Stop with the pseudo intellectual garbage.

>Dang, all those famous leaders who gave great speeches are so childish
Did you seriously just imply for propaganda (which is what great speaches of leaders and dictators are) to be anything but cheap emotional manipulation targeting the lowest common denominator?

What makes them 'cheap'? And of course they're going to try and target as many people as possible, that's the fucking point.

>speeches in general are bad
jesus, you're trying too hard.

Art does not reflect reality

Childishness is not a value judgement. Picasso spent his life learning to draw with the liberty and confidence of a child.

Catharis is catharsis. The return of Odysseus is not inherently higher than the climax of TTGL.

And if you were better read, you'd know that the masters indulge in the same kind of foppery. Shooting through 12 axe handles and slaughtering a room full of suitors comes to mind.

Alright. So Anime isn't art, and neither is oratory.

Anything else you need to get off your chest before we ignore your myopic view of creative work?

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I mean, kind of? As far as combat situations go, whether its war or a sanctioned martial arts bout, a five minute speech isn't going to do shit for the combatants. You're better off just going into the situation with a cool head and your mind on what you've trained for.
Maybe you could say a leader like Hitler was effective, but again, he was a fascist. Pure fascism is politics with a foundation in childish thinking.

Oh. Good, it's not that you don't understand art; You just don't understand humans.

That explains conserving a distinction for "fine art".

>As far as combat situations go, whether its war or a sanctioned martial arts bout, a five minute speech isn't going to do shit for the combatants. You're better off just going into the situation with a cool head and your mind on what you've trained for.
Bullshit, anything that can help boost the morals of your troops will do a lot for them. This is a very really thing is often used in interpretations of war in all kinds of media.

Imagine actually believing that troop moral isn't a thing.

fucking based. ignore the seething gurrenniggers, OP. the CHADS of Yea Forums know this show is fucking dogshit.

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this is quite possibly the most retarded way to call something you don't like bad. What kind of neurodysfunctional sociopath must you be to unironically think something trying to have you feel a specific emotion is "fucked up"?
literally every piece of media ever designed to evoke any kind of emotion is "emotionally """""""manipulative"""""""." I hate this pearl-smooth brainlet term with a fucking passion.

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Most grown adults would find the speeches in TTGL childish. Not just that the characters are childish, which they aren't, but that the situations they are put in are sprung from an immature mind.
It's not just that boosting morale is good or whatever, it's that complex problems and poor odds can be overcome with yelling.

The entire theme of the anime is built on overcoming the impossible through sheer will power. It capitalizing on that doesn't make it inherently childish. Saying that "x is immature" is not really an argument. It's just another cope out. You're just coming back to the implication that you think anything not based in some form of relatable reality is inherently childish, which in itself shows your lackluster and rigid view of art in general

Art might not reflect reality, but storytelling does. Storytelling is mimetic in a way that, say, Picasso's fine art isn't. In that case, childishness can be considered a value judgement, especially when it comes to media being consumed by adults. That's not to say that no one should watch anything childish.
And no, catharsis is not inherently equal. Why would it be? It depends on the stakes that are set beforehand and how the catharsis is reached. It's ridiculous to say that, because Homer has an unrealistic massacre in one of his epic poems, anything is fair game. I mean, it is in a sense, but that doesn't mean the results will be the same.

I even like some cute girls and mooshy love story shit but this was too forced and fake even for me, enough so that I dropped it like a stinking turd after the first episode. Also their eyes look stupid.

>"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S Lewis

All art is mimetic. The experience of a man beholding Guernica is not privileged against a man reading Heart of Darkness, a teen playing Spec Ops: The Line, or a boy watching Full Metal Jacket.

It's all fair game user: That's the point of art. The stories that do not resonate with you are not inherently worse. The only objective metric on which art can be judged is execution, not message.

Anyone who says otherwise embodies his own censor, and seeks to silence messages he does not approve of. He is an enemy to aesthetics and mankind.

well this thread certainly attracted all the pseudo-intellectuals

>Anyone who says otherwise embodies his own censor, and seeks to silence messages he does not approve of. He is an enemy to aesthetics and mankind.

I agree that all art is mimetic to some degree. That doesn't really have anything to do with the feeling I have, shared by many people apparently, that TTGL is too childish to be a really great anime. We're all making a subjective judgement here. You might consider that an expression of our "self-censor," or whatever, but for me, I'm just a guy who finds talking about why I don't like TTGL more interesting than actually watching it. All this shit where you're quoting C.S. Lewis and calling me an "enemy to aesthetics," is kind of dramatic.

I just said that oration is art didn't I?

Besides, you agreed; You don't need to take the moniker for a position you don't hold.

As for childishness, it's a concept ratified on playgrounds and bandied in gym class. It has no place in critique. You are looking for nearsighted, underdeveloped or perhaps low-brow.

These descriptions can trivially be applied to TTGL, but they lack the rhetorical bite of a charge of childishness.

I don't really care about your idea of what has place in a critique. Like you said, low-brow doesn't have the "emotional bite."
>As for childishness, it's a concept ratified on playgrounds and bandied in gym class.
Sounds like you're saying it's childish to find things childish.
I'm aware that there's something mean about calling a beloved work of art "childish," but that doesn't stop me or other people from feeling that way after watching it or reflecting on it. For me, TTGL is not only childish, it's childish in a way that I didn't get from similar things like FLCL or Diebuster.

>I'm aware that there's something mean about calling a beloved work of art "childish,"
No, it just seems like you don't really have anything left to say and try find some way to attack him while going back to calling it childish right after an extensive discussion on why the term is not of good use in these kinds of discussions.

The issue is that you seem to believe that because something is childish it should be seen as a lesser piece of work. You seem to place different media on different standards, with your biases determining what can and cannot be considered art as opposed to following a more objective form of criticism. No ones saying that TTGL isn’t childish, but rather that it’s childishness isn’t the flaw that you are making it out to be.

But that's the problem. I think it is a good term to use. I specifically chose to use it. TTGL does feel like the work of people who never really grew tired of Saturday morning children's TV. That sums up what I dislike about it and what so many other people too. You can call it low-brow or immature if you want. I chose my words because they reflected my experience of what I saw.

>embracing immature drivel makes you mature
Hilarious how the mentally stunted are trying to shift the argument by rallying up behind a quote given by some guy who's known for writing fiction targeting kids. No shit the guy who makes money off children's literature is telling people how embracing childish stories is a mature mindset to have. Kek.

So you're going to start damage controlling now? Is that what we have sunk to?

That is exactly the point of the quote: In the course of our development, we come to an age where we wish to be adult. Once we've achieved that hallowed age, it is not enough to dismiss the concept as unnecessary, but to acknowledge it operates under a primary misconception of value.

It is childish to call things childish as a way to dismiss them. The acceptable use of the term "childish" as an adult is for exactly that: Content and concepts pertaining to adolescence, not lesser or worse, but intended for another audience.

TTGL's message is not uniquely deep, but it touches on concepts like decadence, agency, legacy and the philosophical absurd.

The presentation is not subtle. It is not intended to be. The core thesis of the work relies on the presentation of larger than life heroes (as is often the shorthand of the Mecha genre), but TTGL relies on that shorthand to express the world as a series of macrocosms. The much maligned timeskip was an opportunity to demonstrate this: The bold heroes of yesterday are gone, grown into reserved and invested adults who are forced to overcome the perceived wisdom of their age and recapture the spirit that was the lifeblood of their forgotten victory.

The ever increasing scale of the conflict is entirely intentional: The conflict that started with two young men butting heads with the village chief scales until they are face to face with the metaphorical divine, still seeking to break the fetters they have been bound with "for their own good".

In the end, a synthesis is reached, with the understanding that progress is unstoppable, but it is the individual's duty to turn a critical eye to their own efforts and strength: A virtual god-king steps down to dig wells and plant flowers rather than to rule.

You may not know the inspiration, but it is the tale of Cincinnatus, a Roman general who could have been Emperor.

I've not been involved in your pointless "debate". However, I do think the posts you manchildren chose to submit are quite literally hilarious. You're trying so hard to appear as something you simply aren't. Unfortunately, not intelligent enough to even understand what was being said. Enjoying childish drivel isn't what makes you mature. Netiher is being able to enjoy it. Mature behvavior is to not care about other people calling you out as the manchild you are. That, however, doesn't change that you are one.

How unique: The proud manchild is a paradox of maturity, both adult and child so long as he holds his head high.

I will give the input of someone so clearly aloof and uninvested in the issue it's appropriate due:

Thank you. That definitely is an opinion.

That's fair. I should explain why TTGL's childishness turns me off from it. And of course it is still a work of art.
The theme of overcoming through willpower is fine. A lot of action movies use it. A lot of anime use it. But TTGL's depiction of willpower is just yelling louder and flashing brighter colors. Maybe there's a speech in there. And sacrifice? Well, it's there. Everyone is smiling and washed over in a bright light when they get sacrificed.
It's jarring for me to see the team who animated FLCL and Diebuster go on to make this show, which feels childish to me because it's just the wrong mix of fantasy and groundedness. It preaches a message of overcoming and sacrifice in a way that isn't just naive, it's boring. We expect the one-dimensional troupe of characters to overcome the impossible odds with the flashy colors and yelling. It's not surprising or exciting.

Nice bait.

epic bump

I guess what you dislike about it is what makes it so appealing to people because that's just what you need every once in a while when you're surrounded by depressing shit all the time and watching darker and more serious anime. It's like a break from the hash stuff and just fun childish indulgence that makes you feel empowered