>"""""loser""""" protag born with a god given talent, legendary bloodline, or gifted some OP power lectures villains about hard work and willpower
Hate this trope, has their ever been a true loser protag ? One that truly have to work or completely plans/cons his way to success. Even series that start with a true average protag always end up asspulling some shit to keep him in pace with the power creeps.
It's weird that even authors don't seem to notice it, and usually end up writing villains corresponding much more to the message they're trying to pass.
He learned Rasengan with nothing but sheer effort and getting more chakra literally wouldn't have made a difference when he couldn't even channel regardless, but that's it.
Evan Murphy
You forgot the part where he has the strongest people as his teachers, and ninja god himself has a talk with him
Eli Ward
It's just an example. But yeah it's mind blowing, they also had to make each of his mentor besides Iruka legendary world level ninja.
Leo Jones
Honestly. Has there ever been a truly average joe with nothing going for him that got powerful through sheer work and nothing else?
Caleb Nelson
No, because even if that "loser" protag became successful, it would be entirely due to reasons beyond his/her control (lucky genes, birth, encounters, etc.) anyway.
Brayden Nguyen
Ryo Narushima from the top of my head. He basically get strong to sheer grits and work, as a necessity to stop getting buttfucked or killed, and he have to "cheat" his way to victory more than once. Just pure experience, work and steroids.
Of course you can always reduce anything to luck with an extreme deterministic point of view, but there's still some degree of freedom, hard work, and luck between "I worked hard/devised a plan because of x reason outside my control" and "The strongest hero on earth turned me into superman" or "A legendary beast lend me his power whenever i feel like it" Nice quads btw
Jayden Lee
Both. It's jarring because there's an arc where he preaches about how you can change your destiny and nothing is predetermined.
Adrian Russell
Both and even more. His parent are actually some of the strongest ninjas that ever lived, he have the strongest mythical creature inside his belly and all his teachers are world class ninja.
Nicholas Sullivan
I knew about the fox thing, at least. So ninja powers are inherited genetically as well?
that's why the ballad of Edgardo should be turned into a real manga/anime, it's the true tale of the loser protagonist, the ultimate underdog
Kayden Nelson
Some straight up are, like the red bullshit eyes that only one specific clan has. But, the biggest factor with Naruto is that he has the strongest magical beast in creation sealed inside of him, so he's been running around with an infinite mana/ MP cheatcode more or less since birth, and having said spirit sealed inside of himself is a death cheat too. The fox demon's energy healed a hole that was punched through his chest within seconds and it can control the dude's body to protect him from physical harm while Naruto himself is unconscious. If he didn't have that fox then he would've never survived to see the Shippuden timeskip. Not even close.
Xavier Lewis
He never lost a fight and learned extremely difficult techniques in record time whenever he could actually be bothered to put effort in. His problem was being a lazy fuck who spent his time on pranks and perfecting his porn jutsu instead of training.
Sebastian Watson
the message of naruto was literally never "if you do enough pushups you'll become god" it was always that you have to work for what you want. If naruto literally did nothing and didn't improve at all he would be exactly the same as he was in chapter 1
Jonathan Ross
Unironically Luffy, but he was never supposed to be a loser He has godly luck though
Jack Young
It's in his family. One Piece also sucks ass
Dominic Carter
Then why does he preach about how there's no destiny and nothing is written, while being the archetypal promised prince ?
Colton Reed
Such reasoning when to shit when he learned to do the wind rasengan not even his dad was capable of. Naruto was a fucking prodigy all along, the thing is that his own huge chakra reserves fucked him when he was trying to learn the shitty worthless techniques nobody uses he needed to graduate.
Carter Price
Zenkichi still gets help from Medaka's brother and then gets a power-up from a trillion-year-old god. Oh yeah, and the power to overwrite narrative casualty, because lolwhynot. the biggest loser in the series is someone with the power to erase the earth at a moment's notice, with the only thing holding him back being his crippling autism of hurr durr I'm the biggest loser. nobody in that series isn't special in some way, as long as they have a name and they appear for more than one panel
Levi Jackson
You forgot he's the reincarnation of one of godjesus' sons, Along with Sasuke.
He and Suske were always meant to be the most bullshit characters
Leo Collins
>its in his family What is? Being a tard? Aside from muh special haki which is barely useful he never had anything special going for him, hes a manlet in a world of giga lanklets and he got his strength by having near-death experiences weekly
Cameron Sanders
>He never lost a fight VotE1, the Pain fight (kinda) and against resurrected Madara, where he basically died. >learned extremely difficult techniques in record time Shadow clone training doesn’t require some exceptional talent. >His problem was being a lazy fuck who spent his time on pranks and perfecting his porn jutsu instead of training True, but he was never particularly talented in the first place, especially compared to the guys like Itachi, Minato and Neji.
because if naruto accepted destiny that he was that shitty kid in the village everyone hates who causes pranks and never moved past it he wouldn't be ninja jesus, he would just be some asshole nobody likes who happens to have a lot of chakra
Gabriel Phillips
>!everyones equal man, having powers is nothing special" >is actually special thanks to his powers >people actively befriend him and clump to him thanks to his powers >when a problem (like making money) requires him to use his powers he uses them without any consideration
So do you want realism or not? If someone is a compete loser, then he will lose. If not, then he either has talent, or has huge luck. Both are cheats.
Jaxon Barnes
>Shadow clone training doesn’t require some exceptional talent. Shadow clone itself is a high level jutsu, he learned Rasengan in around as much time as it took Sasuke to learn the Chidori, the shadow clone training trick was only possible for him because he's special.
Kayden Hill
He lost multiple fights, it's just that he's a cheater and let the kyuubi win for him or get his ass out of trouble whenever he would get the shit kicked out of him by someone like Sasuke. Naruto didn't even finish his most famous fight at the waterfall; the kyuubi did it for him.
>You forgot he's the reincarnation of one of godjesus' sons, That didn’t give him any benefits until he actually awakened six paths power. Ashura was literally a dunce that had to cooperate with others to match his brother, a true prodigy. >he learned to do the wind rasengan not even his dad was capable of Minato created rasengan but couldn’t improve it because he died too early. Naruto improved a pre-existent jutsu using unorthodoxy methods, hardly anything prodigious.
Nicholas Foster
>Shadow clone training doesn’t require some exceptional talent. A normal person can only use one for a short while before becoming tired, such as we saw with Kakashi's use of it. Naruto can make literally thousands simultaneously due to nine tails chakra haxors, experience entire weeks within the span of minutes as such, and no one short of another jinchuriki could ever hope to match him in that regard, save for really, really rare individuals like Madara, maybe.
TL;DR: a regular jounin can at most double their learning speed for a few hours, exhausting themselves in the process, while Naruto can multiple his learning speed by factors of thousands and only kind of strain himself in the process.
Chase Morris
And then a few pages later that old man just goes 'Here, have a power up that trumps ALL your previous power ups combined just by touching my hand'
James Myers
Apparently the Japanese love this trope.
Some other Yea Forumsnon explained it once like this: hard work is supposed to reveal the hidden strengths and gifts of your bloodline. It's a bizarre Catch-22. If your secret heritage isn't revealed or your powers don't manifest, it's because you didn't work hard enough.
Sure explains their soul-sucking corporate culture. Keep working those stocks until your 'hidden potential' comes out, Toshi. The higher-ups will surely notice your dedication one of these days if your chuuni bullshit doesn't become a reality first.
saitama but we don't really see the growth directly so it's kind of cheating
Ayden Martin
>Shadow clone itself is a high level jutsu It’s an easy jutsu, its difficulty comes entirely from the chakra costs. >he learned Rasengan in around as much time as it took Sasuke to learn the Chidori And yet he didn’t perfect it until the end of the series, since he couldn’t use it with one hand like Minato and Jiraiya could. >only possible for him because he's special Let’s not forget that the Nine Tails’ chakra was always labeled as a double-edged sword
Daniel Sullivan
Wait they never showed that in the anime
Also was it the kyuubi? I thought naruto just got powered up, not that the kyuubi was fighting for him that's why instead of hitting sasuke he went for his headband
Jackson Rivera
>It’s an easy jutsu, its difficulty comes entirely from the chakra costs. This, it's why it's literally forbidden. It's easy to use but it takes so much of your energy to do that it's killed people before, so knowledge of how to even do it is protected, especially from children and the sickly.
Levi Brooks
>saitama they straight up say that being as strong as you are is completely fucking impossible given the training saitama does
Carson Williams
>His problem was being a lazy fuck who spent his time on pranks and perfecting his porn jutsu instead of training Also an imperfect seal which made his chakra control almost impossible. Naruto is a touch less talented than Sasuke with an arguably even stronger stats all across the board if one considers the Fox.
Gavin Howard
>Actually prophecy kid because Oda is a hack
William Evans
Bullshit. He spent an entire arc learning sage mode, and spent the entire series learning to control Kurama and then befriend him. Then along comes Hagaromo and he goes 'Touch my hand reincarnation of my son' and goes from >I can't do shit to Edo Madara even with KCM2+SM to >Beating Six Paths Madara so bad he NEEDS to absorb the God Tree
Jackson Smith
>Also an imperfect seal which made his chakra control almost impossible. Isn't that only when Orochimaru did some dumb bullshit that Jiraiya undid soon afterwards? He didn't have that much trouble with it afterwards, he could transform better than anyone and walk on water and shit.
Hudson Flores
what?
Lincoln Williams
>Also an imperfect seal which made his chakra control almost impossible No, that was Orochimaru’s doing until Jiraiya undid the seal.
And that wasn't Naruto anymore. Not after he got the tailed chakra cloak and started dashing all over the water like a wild animal. Naruto is always making comments while he fights in a Peter Parker sort of way, and he isn't nearly as feral as he was then. He only ever gets that way when he 'loses himself' to the nine-tails. He was much more like his post-timeskip 4+ tails modes in that pre-timeskip fight.
Dylan Adams
Yes, you're right. I totally forgot about that. It's been a while.
Robert Jones
All these years later, and people still forget to include FMA in these threads.
Kek, Naruto was perfectly in control of his actions in that fight. All these roars and shit are anime-only additions.
Logan Murphy
>son of pee pee poo poo All that matters is if at some point in the story mc ass-pulls a sudden powerup because of muh lineage, if that doesnt happen then it doesnt matter who their parents are
Dominic Torres
>Naruto was a fucking prodigy all along
He was able to pull off a high level jutsu in the first chapter? Why did it take you literally hundreds of chapters to come to the realization that Naruto was a prodigy when it was apparent since the beginning?
Jaxon Scott
They weren't losers but at the same time I dont remember any asspulls that have happened with Edward and Alphonse from FMA
Tyler Sanchez
I mean, ignoring the fact that Naruto trained a lot on and off screen, it was also a reward for all the difficulties he’d come trough, including his shitty childhood, the loss of important to him people, etc.
Logan Williams
>Of course you can always reduce anything to luck with an extreme deterministic point of view Not really. The uncertainty principle is a thing. Also calculating an outcome requires energy. If an available amount of energy is less than we can theoretically grab, then the future is unknown because it can be calculated only in theory. So an amount of free will is inversely proportional to an amount of energy available and a computational efficiency.
Jackson Clark
Name one way that ever benefited him. Hohenheim was nothing but a self serving prick. Everything the Elric brothers did was as orphans.
Nathan Walker
Could black clover be considered? I guess not since he got the 5 leaf book thingy huh
Connor Garcia
Honestly that did not had any explicit influence on his overrall ability. He was a little genius, but his father wasn't shown to be an incredible alchemist on his own, he was considered rather dumb by the little one inside the flask and all his power comes from his philosopher stone.
Benjamin Thomas
Everybody including himself refers to him as an inept retard, the exact opposite of Sasuke who's a complete natural at everything.
Jackson Cook
>has their ever been a true loser protag ? One that truly have to work or completely plans/cons his way to success. Yes. Watch/read Kaiji.
>Hate this trope, has their ever been a true loser protag ? One that truly have to work or completely plans/cons his way to success. the closest a battle shounen ever came to this was negima and that's mainly because the Dangerous Life Damaging Technique he uses to cheat actually does have permanent effects and he happens to be friends with a comically large amount of people who did get born really strong
doesn't entirely break the mould but they in-universe make jokes that negi is more of the edgy rival type than the hero type
Angel Gomez
>gets the ultimate cheat ability to use alchemy without a magic circle in the first chapter
Adrian Wilson
As a certain greek philosopher said in the 'Poetics': "Nobody cares about the average joe character"
Oliver Davis
Other alchemists in that show gain the ability to use alchemy without circles as well. Usually via the use of, for lack of better term, magical items like Mustang's gloves.
William Davis
The last arc addresses this already >superpowered side asks himself why he keeps trying to shun his powers when they've done a lot of good alongside the bad >mc agrees and learns to accept all sides of himself >the series was more about how lording over everyone with your one "talent" and claiming yourself to be better is stupid
Lincoln Powell
>Other alchemists in that show gain the ability to use alchemy without circles as well. and naruto isn't the only person with a sealed beast or eyehacks or bloodhacks and yet naruto is still a cheater too
Joseph Johnson
If an average Joe worked his ass off to get stronger then he's not your average Joe
Henry Mitchell
Don't 90% of sitcoms prove that wrong? What's so special about half the families of the shows that were on in the 80's and 90's? Cheers, Taxi, Family Ties, Full House, etc. They're all about boring everymen sorts of people. The same can be said about plenty of anime. Who in Lucky Star is important to anyone outside of their friend group, or what is interesting about them? That could be said about so many shows revolving around random high schoolers.
Chase Perez
He was inept. Having great chakra reserves and some creative thinking in fights means jack shit if you don't put any effort into anything, which naruto didn't until after that chapter
Jonathan Mitchell
The way to avoid this is simple and has been done plenty of times; the protagonist isn't a loser. He's an average guy, or even special among other humans. Not every story needs an upbeat underdog beating the system.
Connor Bennett
Well technically Goku is a low class saiyan
Anthony Edwards
That's such a retarded argument because he literally lost an arm and a leg for that, and he had to study like hell to even be able to perform human transmutation. He did everything himself
Henry Cox
They're in their genre. Some loudmouth punk who wants to take down baddies in a sitcom or slice of life would at best be seen as a joke because they don't fit in. Likewise a powerless joe with no ties would be seen as a joke in a series of overpowered freaks. The only way either of those characters would work in a different setting is if they play with how weird they are.
Gabriel Peterson
Holy projection
Bentley Cox
"I love Medaka"
Asher Cooper
Kage Bunshin was never a hard jutsu, it was a chakra sink
Leo Watson
That's one way, that i don't dislike >Not every story needs an upbeat underdog beating the system. Never said that, i just criticized the story that actually pretends to be that and fail miserably by using those writing tricks.
Nolan Foster
He didn't inherit a single skill from his dad
Tyler Jenkins
>It wasn't hard
Every character in Naruto who's seen Naruto use the shadow clones would disagree
Sebastian Martin
tfw tokushit and mecha anime pull this off better than shounenshit. /m/ chads win again
I agree Naruto is a huge asspull basket, but all his kage bunshin mastery comes from having that huge chakra pool which allows him to use it all the time and become proficient on it as a side effect
Evan Powell
This, and even when you do get talented mofos like Sento they still achieve more than their inspirations and past lives ever did.
>be a loser wimp with bad luck >trains heh to get stronger because he feels like a drag to everyone else >when the situation demanded him to step on he was ready
They started portraying Naruto as a "diamond in the rough" pretty much in the 1st arc, he was even equal to Sasuke in the tree running test
Austin Gomez
>Hate this trope, has their ever been a true loser protag ? One that truly have to work or completely plans/cons his way to success. I feel you. Does it count If reality and random luck conspire to make you look more badass than you really are?
Goku by Saiyan standards would be. Though Toriyama is a shit writer and forgot that Bardock was supposed to be a lower class, but made him the strongest warrior at the time.
Ryan Carter
Naruto having large chakra pools(even without the fox) is in itself a talent since he inherited that from his parents. Throughout the manga we're constantly shown how talented naruto is when >he learn rasengan in a week when it took jiraiya years to learn. >created an S rank jutsu-rasenshuriken in the span of 1-2 weeks(which includes him training for his wind affinity) >master sage mode in a week, when jiraiya with years of practice was only able to use an imperfect version of it.
Nathan Hughes
From popular shonen? Shinji Ikari. He's a mildly depressed kid who's thrown into a situation way bigger than him and has to be guilted into piloting a dangerous machine because he's a bit of a coward. He only survives some fights from a combination of luck and grit. Besides the physical danger he's also constantly on the verge of a mental breakdown from extreme physical pain and the expectations and pressures of everyone around him to protect the world.
From outside mainstream shonen, off the top of my head there's I Am a Hero and Scumbag Loser, wherein the protags are overtly pathetic people.
Samuel Barnes
no, because its such a ridiculous storyline not even fiction could portray it
Ethan King
Doesn't change the fact Naruto shouldn't have won because of Nine Tails shit and should have somehow gotten a draw at most on his own. That much would have sufficed to shake up Neji he could actually beat him when incapable of even tapping into more power he didn't naturally have.
Actually throwing his logic back at him is the only worthwhile part of this shit fight.
Naruto didn't even learn to do Rasengan with just one hand until he was literally all grown up. You literally see him do nothing but spend hours and days struggling with the steps until he figures out to improvise, even with the final product where it's just a single clone giving him extra hands, which anyone could do unlike Rasenshuriken. Don't fucking drag his only 100% hard work accomplishment down with the rest of the bullshit.
>muh chakra reserves Literally useless. It was all about control and he literally hurts his very system too much to even use it multiple times. You also never see a single conversation where he demands Kurama for more, which makes no difference regardless.
John Edwards
>look at him, it's so impressive to be able to learn faster than anyone else when he possess infinite power from a mythical creature >and look how he brute force a solution thanks to being the only one able to create infinite clone to help him, that's so intelligent! Every time
>Shinji Ikari user, if you go into mecha pilot they almost all have unique super prototype that are unbeatable and as gundam go, some psychic ability to see through space 360°
Josiah Watson
Yes, because in the real world is full of people who never worked hard and learn halfway through their lives that their parents are actually legends in whatever fields they hope to succeed in. You can also get better out of the blue through unexpected mean.
Jaxon Lewis
Guts before he got the armour
Gavin Ortiz
Naruto's bad chakra control was caused by Kurama's chakra interfering with his own
Justin Powell
>You literally see him do nothing but spend hours and days struggling with the steps until he figures out to improvise Yeah he did all of that only during the week when he started learning it because otherwise tsunade wouldn't have come back to the village. Immediately after the one week we never hear or see him try to improve the technique again. Even after the 2 year timeskip they don't even mention that he tried to mastered it with one hand. >it's just a single clone giving him extra hands, which anyone could do He used a shadow clone* which not just anyone can do and is way better than a regular clone since it can think for itself. >don't fucking drag his only 100% hard work accomplishment down with the rest of the bullshit. All of naruto's hard worked only ever took place within the span of a week or two because that's all the time he needed since he was so talented.
Jackson King
Guts is a gigachad not an average joe
Isaiah Phillips
>user, if you go into mecha pilot they almost all have unique super prototype that are unbeatable and as gundam go, some psychic ability to see through space 360° Shinji doesn't have any special ability as a pilot. He's not even a particularly good pilot. The only reason why he pilots Unit 01 is because of a very rare compatibility, otherwise they'd have picked an adult with training and experience. And the Eva's are actually not even very good as mechas. They're notoriously difficult to control and prone to going berserk. On top of that, they're mentally linked to the pilot, which means that the pilot will physically feel whatever damage the Eva itself takes. They're also reliant on an external power supply and need a huge support team just to function normally.
Sebastian Peterson
But he had the greatest advantage of them all. Sex with his hot foreign girlfriend
Alexander Miller
Guts isn't an average joe, he was easily killing people when he was half Isidro's age.
James Harris
Kaguya, Ashura and Indira AREN’T CANON
David Harris
Not just anyone being able to do shadow clones is retconned and only because he stole a scroll to learn it by knocking the closet pervert Hokage out with a pair of big peachy blonde tits.
I fucking wish.
Jeremiah Roberts
He's not an average joe but he legitimately struggles through hardship and has insane odds against him at all times. I wouldn't say Guts ever had anything handed to him. Even the Berserk armor is explicitly dangerous to use and will probably inevitably kill either him or one of his comrades.
Alexander Fisher
>average joe Did you even watch this?
Jackson James
Shinji probably isn't a good case for this as he pretty much is chosen because of his genetics and nothing else.
Ian Brooks
That's really a bad example and you clearly don't know NGE. All Evangelion pilot can only link because the process include imprinting their mother instinct in the Eva, Shinji particular Eva can only berserk because it have the full mind of his mother, unlike Asuka for whose mother didn't recognize her much, assuming its the result of a botched imprint. Not forgetting Rei who is a special mind transplanted into the clone of the mother imprint in the Eva Plus the big about S² engine and being able to move without external power source. In short, not only each Evangelion are unique but Shinji Eva is even more unique with extra powered up that literally made it more important than the other.
Chase Sanders
This. But he did get Devil Style gifted to him tho
Jaxon Flores
I agree. But the Number 2 problem that you forgot to mention here is that the soap opera plot keeps dragging on for more than 200 episodes, in trying to have Naruto take down Sasuke to stop him from destroying the Leaf Village.
Christopher Butler
That never even fucking happens.
Sebastian Rivera
Rock Lee
Julian Jones
In fairness, Naruto was a legit underdog character until shippuden happened and everything happened. Yes he had the fox, but that literally only got him a win twice, and in one of those wins he actually trained for it way beforehand so it wasn't even an asspull. Every other instance of him using the fox still resulted in an ass beating.
Cooper Torres
Kakashi called him a genius for learning 5 gates so fast
Brayden Rogers
kiritsugu
Eli Wilson
I meant to say everything went to shit when shippuden happened.
Lincoln Ortiz
Amounted to nothing in the end, he hasn't really done anything major after fighting Kimmimaro and even then he had to be saved by the guy who managed to crush his limbs, the same guy who was so powerful all he had to do was stand and let his magic sand kill people for him
Christopher Long
He should of been the protag
Anthony Barnes
So in other words, he's talented?
Noah Davis
Literally saying this in response to a series where Mighty Guy drop kicks Uchiha Madara the god genius in the stomach almost crippling him.
Landon Powell
Which literally cost him an arm and a leg.
Easton Reed
What innate powers did kid Simon have that others did not? Every Human has Spiral Energy so that's just the default, not something special to him.
No? He was literally incapable of doing it alone like Kakashi, Jiraiya, and Minato could - he needs a clone to assist with the chakra manipulation because he lacks the talent and know-how to do it alone.
His "talent" lies in his massive chakra reserves, but in terms of actual manipulation and technical abilities he's one of the worst in the story - that is, right up until he got his personal version of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that let him accelerate his learning.
Christopher Garcia
Shamo was really good until the silly china arc
Evan Gonzalez
>he was incapable of doing it alone like FUCKING ADULTS Are you forgetting that he was TWELVE FUCKING YEARS OLD when he first learned the Rasengan? By the time he was the same age as Kakashi/Minato/Jiraya he was able to do it just like them.
Michael Williams
He doesn't die, did you read the ending?
Lucas Edwards
Yabuki Joe
Bentley Campbell
He's the only one that got a real gunmen while others are stuck with beastmen-use gunmen that don't use spiral energy
Jason Howard
He had more spiral power than others. It was the whole reason Kamina relied on him and sacrificed his life for him.
Austin Watson
They did well to not make it seem like he wasn't special, but he was the only one who seemed to be gifted at using spiral power. It was pretty much his only thing, and the cast is written well enough to have other talents that are just as important the series.
Colton Hill
was this series axed? it was so good
Noah Peterson
>Has the god given talent of riding a horse >Family is only legendary because of the work he put in >Gifted the power of a weak gun but only after literally stealing Jesus Christ's abilities >Gains the power to shoot a slightly stronger gun but only after weeks of training and near death experiences >Crippled Does Johnny count as a loser protagonist?
What drives me up a fucking wall is the appearance is literally treated as something horrible and demonic. Naruto was pissed off so much he lost control and the nightmarish beast within completely destroyed a superior opponent, but at seemingly the cost of his friend's life and his own innocence and kind heart. Then he's instructed to daringly ask for it to use of his own free will and bullshits a win. Fast forward to fighting Sasuke where he desperately needs it just to fight back the entire time and it begins showing its full inhuman power clearly not how ninjas fight. Now as anger is continually shown to activate it, fast forward all he way to sprouting 4 tails and burning off his skin with malevolent out of control power and going a rampage to the point Kabuto himself states it's a not a battle between ninja, but monsters. Yamato even tells him afterwards the more he uses this power the more he'll only hurt himself and everyone else and not until Hinata confesses her love to him and seemingly died immediately after trying to protect him from Pain after he's already killed Jiraiya and destroyed the village, his rage and misery unleashes that power at its worst ever and needs to conquer it avoid being ruined by hatred and pain.
Nine Tails before he became "Kurama" was always this wicked god like monster that Naruto was supposed to struggle with constantly and then he just befriends him like nothing and power creeps the story with no risk anymore to ultimately gain a fucking giant magic mech final form to do all the work for him and fight against even more ridiculous villains just spamming jutsu. There had to have been a better way to handle Nine Tails reluctantly becoming one of the good guys or at least not evil anymore.
Owen Edwards
/thread Was scanning the thread for some based FKMT. Though the real example is Kurosawa. He starts as a 50yo loser, ends up as THE STRONGEST MAN.
Colton Rogers
based
Jaxson Parker
>didn't realize I hit enter wrong I fucking hate these reply boxes sometimes.
Thomas Johnson
Bitch puhlease Agni might be """""gifted"""" but he sure as shit would rather not be
>literal superpowers Seriously you firepunch faggots are the single worst demographic here on Yea Forums. There can't be a single fucking without you coming to post your shitty 14yo existential edgefest.
Xavier Turner
If you honestly think immortality is a good idea, you might as well neck yourself now because there is no hope for you
Brody Diaz
Did you even watched the show? He just was able to dominate it because he did it again and again thankful to his special chakra.
Angel Powell
What's too hard to understand in "fuck off I don't wanna talk about your shitty manga" ? OP asks for absolute underdog/average joes MCs, your shit has superpowers, so fuck the fuck off. And stop clinging to my dick begging to be acknowledged.
Aaron Jenkins
the body doesn't care what a weak mind like yours thinks.
Lucas Smith
Neji was right all along that's why Kishimoto killled him off
Ryder Howard
>he learn rasengan in a week when it took jiraiya years to learn. TO BE FAIR on this one:
He learned how to do his specific version of Rasengan in a week which involves using a Shadow Clone. It took him a while and some buffs in order to do it one-handed
Owen Stewart
No Orochimaru placed another seal on top of the reaper death seal that Minato placed and Jiraya fixed it just before his fight with Neji in the Chunin exams.
Adam Rivera
First off: It's that I don't give a shit about what a faggot wants And second, when the entire universe is hell bent on fucking you in the ass at every moment and when your supposed """Superpower""" as you brainlets call it, only serves to extend your suffering then yes. You are an underdog I don't know how this can be explained to you since you sound like someone who needs a crutch to breathe
Ethan Diaz
Yes, I fucking did, moron. He keeps pushing himself until it hurts too much to even build up chakra and keeps having to rest until he finally gets each step and then still can't master the last one until he's grown up.
Ethan Cook
More like it was Kishimoto's best attempt to find an excuse to not have the fight be the NaruxHina moment it should have been. Naruto vs Neiji is like if Arlong Park was about Arlong stealing someone's dog instead of putting Nami through hell for 8+ years
Most egregiously because she fucking fainted during it, which sounds like a retarded asspull just to keep away as a love interest.
Jack Cook
It's simple, really. Naruto is a typical shonen manga.
The people who run this shit have particular standards, and they like those standards, and they haven't changed them in decades. So in a typical shonen manga, you're going to see 1) The main character is going to be special in someway 2) The main character will said to not be special, but somehow keep up with everyone else through willpower or training, and end up being special anyway 3) The main charracter will be said to be at some sort of disadvantage, and then they'll end up completely nullifying it, and end up being special.
I challenge you to think of one big shonen action series that doesn't fall into one of these three categories. Main characters have to be special, and people like it when they are. I man, just the fact that Naruto had a demon inside of him should have raised the alarms back when this series first came out, but nobody gave a shit until they started stacking powerups on him like other shonen shows are.
Unless the writer is extremely principled and the editors willing, even writing a story about someone like Rock Lee would have eventually ended up with him having magical powers in someway.
The irony about Rock Lee is that he remains the way he is because he's NOT the main character, and one doesn't have to worry about giving him a new power up or new mode, because he'll show up, do his bit, and then the main characters take over. But because he's not the main character, that means someone with his limited ability is the perfect set up for jobbing.
So the ultimate reality is that Naruto's big problem with writing about hardwork and perseverance is that it's a shonen action manga, and at some point all of that shit goes out of the window, because the main character is going to be special. Did anyone actually think that the series wasn't going to end up without various power ups? Shit, even YYH pulled this bullshit at the end
literally everything impressive about naruto came from his lineage. As a person he's persistent I guess but that alone just makes him Lee at best. Neji was right on like 3 different levels
Does Rock Lee count as an aversion to this? I feel like most people in the Naruto universe could achieve what he did if they were as dedicated and enthusiastic about training as he was. Which then begs the question:
Why do you little faggots feel the need to trumpet your shitty series everywhere you can? Fuck off you little faggot, don't even try to talk back you're a literal cockmonger. Your shitty edgefest has an immortal MC, end of the line. He's no underdog, and especially no average joe. I wish I could deliver cross arm locks through TCP/IP sometimes.
With what? Your manlet arms? Honestly, I just pity you at this point It must be hard living life as a literal troglodite, incapable of higher thought
Chase Nelson
>one punch man Bad example since we don't see his extensive training he was just OP for a gag not through hardwork or whatever bullshit people are bitching about.
Cameron Richardson
the problem isn't being special, it's trying to push a narrative that the special person isn't special which completely undermines the intelligence of the audience. There are ways to show development and tell stories without having to be an absolute underdog. Hell at the end it wasn't even naruto's superiority that won him the last battle, it was his conviction
I'd put him down as a maybe. He was pathetically weak compared to normal people before he started training.That probably set his limit a lot lower then normal people. The problem is we don't know the standard amount of effort one needs to achieve a limit break since so far Saitama is the only example and the details of his case are vague.
>getting proved wrong >tries daydreaming You wish cockmonger, I'm a competitive sambo practitioner and a Baki reader. You're an edgy teen shilling a pathetic superhero "deconstruction" who still cannot fucking understand what "underdog" means.
Anthony Flores
Sport shonen desu, as they are more grounded in realism it makes it harder for a lazy writer to turn the protag into a special promised prince with an uber power midway through the serie. The MC is either said to be surpisingly talented from the start or they have to keep it that way, which is kind of realistic plenty of athlete were average joe who walked into a gym and discovered they're not half bad at a particular sport. Much better than "Oi Yusuke ! Ain't it funny, you're a demon from the start ! Thanks to your hidden grandpa who was also a uberstronk demon"
It seems to be a trope mainly for fantasy anime, especially one with some kind of quantifiable super-power.
Mason Turner
He still states how hard of a workout he actually does every day.
Gavin Hernandez
You would have gotten bored of him and the manga would fizzle out and be forgotten. The whole appeal of most shonen is powerlevel shit. Unless we take all the magical powers and eyehax out of the manga completely, an average protagonist would be fucking boring and constantly BTFO.
Bentley Ramirez
Based Bakichad
Caleb Smith
I heard The Prince of Tennis is hilariously stupid and started making every new opponent capable of impossible shit.
Isaiah Rivera
>Thinking reading mango makes you a fighter >Thinking displaying his inability to comprehend higher concepts is somehow proof of my own incorrectness You're just adorable
Ryder Hill
See you in next thread, fellow Bakichad. You have no reading comprehension in top of having shit taste and a petty attitude. We read Baki because we practice martial arts, just like you read dumb superhero shit because growing up with a whore mother has scarred you for life.
It's the opposite, powerlevel fuckfest tends to make everything boring; it always comes down to character comparing their power/energy/mana/chakra until the MC screams really hard and really long while the villains look at him bewildered before his new power up waiting to receive the final blow.
Also when we're talking about an "average protagonist" we're not talking about one that cannot grows, but one who can start low and grow with something else than their majestic hidden talent, special to themselves that get revealed in a few page.
Anthony Flores
This trope is actually briefly addressed in The Twelve Kingdoms. When Rakushun is in school to become a civil servant there's this older guy that has a reputation for repeatedly failing despite spending all his time studying. When he eventually decides to quit the academy, Rakushun encourages him not to give up, only for the other students to tell him that he's being naive, and that if the talent isn't there, then certain things are impossible no matter how hard a person tries. It's implied that Rakushun initially doesn't understand this because he is extremely gifted despite being discriminated against because he's a half-beast.
This is pretty on-brand for the series though, since one of the major themes is accepting your fate and doing what you can with what you are given.
Nah, you read Baki because it helps you delude yourself into forgetting you're a fat fucking weeb Make no mistake, nobody is falling for it just you And it's not me who doesn't get what the term underdog actually means Maybe you ought to open a dictionary or two and not just RP on a vietnamese origami folding board about being a big boy I don't mean to insult most Baki readers because I'm sure most of them aren't as retarded as you but god damn, you give them a bad name
Camden Harris
Lee was literally capable of defeating the Sharingan and his own teacher learned how to fight looking only at someone's fucking feet then goes on to nearly killed Madara with every godly power and buff in the fucking series and make him laugh at how impressive and fun he is, personally declaring him the strongest.
Lee could one day be like Guy, if not better, just like his father, Dai, before him, who was an actual loser that was able to singlehandely kill almost the entirety of the fucking 7 Ninja Swordsmen while his son went on to do the above.
Liam Sanchez
>3rd place at last year's nationals >"n-no y-you're a fat weeb!" This is getting boring little faggot, I have been kind enough to feed you (You)s until now, but you have no retorts and no banter.
Well, my point is that the nature of the beast is that most shonen series end up with special main characters by design/committee . So no matter how much you write about characters being the underdog and hard work, EVENTUALLY, that will end up being no so much at some point in the series.
I mean, look at where Dragonball is now compared to where it started. You can't really push Goku as the eternal underdog who trained to be the best when you've already stacked so many powerups specifically based on his bloodline towards him.
It sure is fucking convenient that this ancient ritual that needs 6 Pure-Hearted Saiyans to challenge the power of the gods was around just at the right moment! Shit, Dragonball abandoned that concept once Super Saiyans were introduced. All Tien does is train, and he has nothing to show for it because he's not a Saiyan.
Your rage is all I crave, not (you)'s And I don't need any. You manage to do more damage to your own image than I ever could Seriously, you accuse Fire Punch readers of being edgy yet here you are threatening meanies over the interwebs that you'd beat them up. If I didn't know any better I'd say this is just some autistic navy seals copypasta attempt, but I've experienced enough stupidity that I know you're serious Go outside big man, take a breather and reflect on what you're doing with your life. IF you're capable of inner monologue that is
Hunter Brooks
If Rock Lee was the main character, he would have ended up with some special power eventually.
Cooper Long
Yuri on ice
Eli Young
These are sadly common tropes within the industry both because big series that became popular showed that they work and because they are an easy way out for the writer. It's surprisingly hard to write a good fight, and once you're exhausted you'll just pull out a quick BIG NUMBERS gain out of your ass to justify the MC's victory
One of my favorite examples was Yu Yu Hakusho. It started out relatively well, with the crew needing to fight smart, not hard. But as the series progressed it evolved into DBZ, hell it even had powerlevels if I remember correctly
Julian Baker
>nobody mentioned World Trigger yet Just go to show that most kids can't handle this level of unspecial underdog.
naruto was never a loser in the sense that his destiny was to be someone who could never achieve anything. neji was just an autist about destiny cause muh culture fucked me. narutos dream was to be accepted and respected by his village specifically by becoming hokage. it didn't matter if he was ninja god or whatever. just that he made the right moral choices and persevered.
Ethan Hernandez
What I never understood is why he was mistreated to begin with? Naruto I mean. Wasn't he the son of Ninja Jesus, the heir of two powerful bloodlines and the host of a world ending demon dog? Who had the brilliant fucking idea to bully this kid? Imagine if he did a Ninjaschool shooting
Owen Jones
I mean he is holding a monster who killed hundreds of people inside of him. People would naturally want to vent over the loss of their loved ones after a mysterious attack and a baby can't exactly defend itself. It's not smart, but it's understandable.
Asher Martinez
>tfw the jinchûriki kid starts reaching for his scrolls
I see your point but I disagree Japans view of the atom bomb is justified HOWEVER if the atom bomb was a sentient boy that could go off again I'd make DAMN sure he doesn't. Ignore him sure but don't keep poking the ticking monster bomb because you wanna vent
Aaron Torres
No biological superpowers. No bullshit mystical techniques. Just skill brought about from decades of work.
>It started out relatively well, with the crew needing to fight smart, not hard. I love YYH, and I think it's one of the best shonen series to date.
But if there was one problem that the series had, is that whenever Yusuke is up against the last antagonist of the arc, he ends up pulling some extra power out of somewhere, and that ultimately resulted in Demon Yusuke.
And Demon Yusuke is probably one of the worst powerups I've ever seen. Not because of how it looks, but just by how much of an asspull it is. It honestly made powerups in shonen series less appealing for me.
Austin Peterson
The Toguro one was kinda tolerable because it had buildup That boy had to endure hours of torture in that fucking cave to earn his bullshit powerup even then, getting a second one was not only unnecessary but dumb and sucked out all the tension All the others however are bad
but he isnt powerful, he's still a fucking loser that gets blown to pieces regularly
Joshua Lee
Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer
Dylan Clark
The worst part about it was the drama built up by his death, they imply that he's counting on Kurama, Kuwabara and Hiei to continue. So when the trio get out of the pocket dimension sulks over his death then get the heart of the tiger, all pumped up and rushes to Sensui, that's pretty heavy.
But no, boom demon atavism out of nowhere, Yusuke come in to save them, and throw a "No, i didn't meant that ! You really thought i'd let someone fight my own fight ?", it makes them look like absolute joke, a bunch of weak useless comic relief.
Something weird is that it looked like we weren't about to get Powercreep'd at the start of the arc, they introduce new forms of fight and explain that Sensui while having less spirit energy is an awful match up for Yusuke.
Bentley Morris
>and ninja god himself has a talk with him Because Naruto is the reincarnation of The Ninja God's son and gives him power.
Easton Robinson
But he is from a race made to fight, that also have set of transformations that enhance that trait. That's a huge advantage in his world
Michael Scott
Literally every race other than humans have those Theirs is just spectacularly bullshit instead of incredibly bullshit
Lincoln Gray
Which is fucking bullshit. The only reincarnation should have been Sasuke or not at all in the first place. All he needed to do was simply deem them capable of saving the world or some shit and hand them special power temporarily with cool new forms for both to market if needed that badly. Faggot singlehandedly ruined the final fight everyone was waiting for.
Jason Ward
that came back to bite him in the ass later when he was just burning Chakra due to having such shit control there was a tradeoff there Naruto just played on his strengths and took it to the extreme like Rock lee
Gabriel Russell
I really want to read air gear because of its art and I want mindless badassery but im scared I might end up dissapointed
Joseph Phillips
it's not hard to cast, many characters have done it but taking it to the extent Naruto does is something else
no, he's right, Minato's seal was slowly forcing the Fox's Chakra to merge with Naruto which was really fucking him up for a while and causing a very real chance that at some point the seal will get weak enough that the Fox would break out and continuously tapping into the Fox's Chakra was speeding that up
Dominic Howard
And keep in mind, he got most of those trainers due to nepotism "I know your friend" or "I knew your parents!" and so on and so forth
Aaron Myers
I'm torn on Sensui. I love the concept of taking someone who could have been the main character himself, and making him twisted. I love that Sensui was a threat, not because of how strong he was, but because of how much more experience he had than Yusuke. A good portion of the Chapter Black arc is trying to deal with someone's powers outside of trying to punch them in the face.
But at the same time, he's still full of shonen horseshit. Wait! It turns out Sensui has super special energy that nobody else has! Why? Because he split the training between his seven personalities, that's why! Then on top of that, when he's fighting the remainder of the gang, he pulls out not one, but two special sacred energy armors out of his ass. What, were they going to sell toys of his model or something? Why the fuck does he need that?
And then after he dies, Itsuki shows up and preaches to the cast about finding a stronger enemy to fight, and pretty much blaming them for what happened. I'm told that was the author venting about how tired he was of writing and starting to get depressed, but man, fuck off. Itsuki's got no room to complain about anything.
But honestly, what pissed me off more than anything was his fucking gun arm. When the fuck did he get that put in?
Ayden Wood
Why the fuck did Togashi even do that retarded shit instead of having Yusuke actually become one due to his experiences?
James Johnson
Yusuke was supposed to die and Chapter Black was supposed to be the last arc, but then Shonen Jump editor meddling happened
Ian Moore
Other than his autism Laius became one of the greatest adventurers through his own training and effort.
It felt like a bunch of weird character idea were meddled into one already written.
Kevin Sanchez
>is supposedly a loser underclass >obscenely OP in almost every aspect and loved by everyone he meets especially his brocon sister >lectures others about how they should just learn to accept their place
Bro, I love Beard but he's insanely talented, both physically and mentally. There is no way an average man could survive his training, let alone become as strong as he. >No bullshit mystical techniques. Foresight cuts dangerously close.
>Yusuke dead again So he was going to fuck Botan instead? If so, to hell with them.
Nicholas Rodriguez
He's talented, but from what we've seen entirely through his own effort. The training that he did was laid out for us. The difference between him and other fighters is that he just put more effort in that anyone else and for longer.
Nicholas Mitchell
That's fair. Also he doesn't rely on a mutation, OP genes or a bullshit technique. I'd love to see his origin story. It would be absolutely based if he really was just some kid with noting special going for him except the will to work himself to death.
Christopher Roberts
Rasengan is S tier jutsu and only Minato & Jiraiya had mastered it at that point. Naruto mastered it as a 12 year old.
>DUDE, NARUTO HAS BEEN NINJA JESUS THE ENTIRE TIME LOL
Owen Gonzalez
Give him two or three more in-universe years and he'll be Kitora or Yoneya tier, if Ashihara's neck wills it.
Andrew Perez
More than that, he's worldly, which is just as important if not moreso than his rigorous training. He knew a lot of the other fighters gimmicks already because he'd already met their masters or elders or whatever.
Nolan Hughes
Not really. When Naruto goes to train the "elemental" chakra with Kakashi, he shows that he also can do the Rasengan.
Rasengan was classified as S tier because it requires a shitton of control and technique to pull it off.
Also, Naruto DIDN'T master it as a 12 year-old, he had to use clones to complete the technique unless he had Kyuubi chakra infused.
Grayson Jackson
What the fuck are you talking about
Can you speak like a person instead of a meme spouting retard, please
Hudson Turner
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Good one.
Carter Moore
He managed to beat lazy Peco on a sport that refused itself to him completely.
Is a loser for self insertion,and the rest are the power fantasies
Wyatt Ramirez
Also, if I remember correctly, Edward still needed to know the proper combination for the alchemy to work. Since he mostly used basic shapeshifting alchemy that's quite simple by the show's standards.
He never managed to make some of the more complex alchemical stuff like ball of fire out of nowhere and Kimbley's explosions because he didn't know the formulas for those out of the top of his head.
Samuel Turner
Don Quixote (from the novel, not One Piece)
Jaxson James
I also like him, user.
Carter Rodriguez
>has literally the best genes on planet earth >daddy dearest imparted him with more starting knowledge about fighting, anatomy and training then most fighters gain in their lifetime
Angel Russell
But he didn't and had to improvise his own version of it until the very end of the series by getting the chakra flowing manually with clawing like a cat and doing it with a clone using both hands to form it while held in place by his own.
Rasengan is Naruto's one and only fully earned achievement in the entire series.
Zachary Robinson
Yeah, Jack Hanma would be closer to the a loser, because he didn't inherit the best genes in the world, was a weakling most of his life and had to rely on drugs and surgeries to keep up with all the super fighters in Baki's world.
Juan Price
Exactly. All the other BS is clearly handed out, but the rasengan had a whole arc solely so Naruto could get the hang of it.
Ian Lopez
>daddy dearest imparted him with more starting knowledge about fighting, anatomy and training then most fighters gain in their lifetime
So what you're saying is he trained and studied his ass off to get to his current state. And this is cheating somehow.
Astounding.
Levi Nguyen
Baki like Jack didn't get much from Yujiro. Sure he is a hundred time stronger than your average dude, but in a world where jacked untrained bodybuilder are immune to shotguns, caveman kills dinosaur barehanded and kung fu master can fight at 200 years old, Baki is as much as a freak physically as a regular gym goer in the real world.
Jordan Cooper
He was able to train because his blood literally demands him to. I'm not saying Baki isn't a hard worker, i love the fucker, but saying he's ''an average joe who worked hard'' is beyond retaded, insane physical advantages aside his genes literally hardwire him to enjoy training and enduring pain.
Dylan Mitchell
You mentioned the 3 biggest non-Hanma outliers in the series and act like they're the norm in his world.
Colton Nelson
I'm hyperbolizing a bit, but Baki isn't said to be much of a freak compared to the other fighter as much i can recall. Jack too, as he wasted his Hanma potential his strength only comes from his training, roids and viciousness.
Andrew Cook
As far as I recall, his lineage isn't ever said to have made any difference in terms of his success as a fighter (with the exception of Yujiro's training). It's not like he was given a sharingan or was born half-demon or some shit. There's no bloodline exclusive techniques or anything. And his genes aren't ever brought up as something relevant to his strength desu so I'm really not seeing your argument here.
>It's not like he was given a sharingan Well there's his demon back
Michael Cook
His demon back. Also his innate talent for fighting. He was beating absolute top of the line fighters like Retsu when he was 18.
Elijah Gutierrez
>Hate this trope, has their ever been a true loser protag ? One that truly have to work or completely plans/cons his way to success. Unless you include the getting really powerful part, this guy seems to fit. Even right now he is by far the weakest character on the cast physically and improving to be merely mediocre is a huge step up, and regularly gets his ass blown out because of it because he simply cannot go toe to toe with anybody in a straight fight the majority of the time. There's been opportunities to give him bullshit powerups but they haven't happened yet and even if he got one he'd be unlikely to be able to use it effectively under the series's own logic. He keeps up by surrounding himself with talented people and being smart in a series where teamwork and planning matters.
>demon back Very tiresome... Where does it say Demon Back is a Hanma bloodline only technique? Why does Jack not have a Demon back if it's inherent to every Hanma? Does the demon back make an actual difference in his strength?
Brandon Foster
Because Jack is retarded, also he may or may not be naturally weak ( So no back probably ), it's unclear wether he had a wasted potential or that he's just born weak.
Benjamin Gomez
Would op even be able to achieve anything if he was given the shonen power to perform more hardwork than a normal person like naruto
Oliver Flores
>loser protag only gets stronger after being horribly mutilated and each powerup comes with so much suffering it never seems worth it
If he got powerful or successful, he's no longer average. Yes even osamu is not some average/weak guy his fags fellate him to be.
Nathaniel Walker
I don't think loser adequately describes the depths Ippo has fallen to.
Kayden Edwards
Baki also has superpower retard. >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUH BAKI IS SO GOOD AND AND NO POWERS XD
Andrew Brooks
Baki counts right? shit after shit.
Brandon Long
Ippo is a case on it's own, because he had it all diligence, punching power, iron chin, top tier cardio; hard to teach stuff that makes a world champ. And instead of being a chad multi division champ and getting his huge pecker wet, he became a drop out CTE'd perma virgin at 25.
Matthew Evans
>should of typical leedrone
Liam Wood
So I'm never fucking reading.
Daniel Parker
do you think rokudou is a good "loser" protag?
Ayden Gomez
>Is it possible to have a talent for hard work? The answer depends on whether or not one considers passion and self-discipline talent. Personally, I'm unsure, but I wouldn't be against the idea. >If he got powerful or successful, he's no longer average. True, but he started off average and did not rely on talent. Rather, he relied on dedication and drive, and through these he attained success. If one attains success through pure hard work and will, that does not mean he was never average, it means he has grown and developed past his averageness, which is not a bad thing in itself. >Yes even osamu is not some average/weak guy his fags fellate him to be. Osamu has yet to attain significant success or power. Compared to his colleagues, he is still lacking.
Camden Sullivan
Haruhiro is indeed, a loser.
Jose Gutierrez
FUCK YOU Naruto worked hard, he had to work hard since the beginning.
Christopher Jenkins
Isn't it not kengan but similar? He'd have to be a member of Kazzy's bloodline to have kengan but that hasn't been explicitly stated and the monologue saying he had good eyes made it seem like he had a skill rivaling kengan but not exactly part of the inheritance Kazzy got.
James Adams
Different user, but as you've said, Agni is still "gifted". Kurosawa and Kaiji fit the bill better, personally speaking.
Grayson Butler
Would hard work be considered a talent? Because if so, it kinda nullifies the dichotomy altogether.
Anthony Edwards
Not giving up is a talent, but its also not a super-power bred into you through eugenics nor is it some incredible skill or prowess that only 'you' have.
Henry Myers
I consider hard work itself as an action rather than an inherent trait. Having the discipline to continue it and the passion to give it your all is more of a grey area.
Dominic Ramirez
Kenichi is a full Manga about this. He's got no talent and his enemies are usually martial arts geniuses or monsters that surpass him at one thing. But he makes up by mixing different fighting moves since he trains under 5 masters, and his hellish training has him nearly dying every time.
It's always clear that he is an average Joe with tons of training going against pros
Aaron Perry
Ippo.
Isaac Baker
Doesnt count he is under the 5 greatest masters in the entire world.
Brandon Rogers
The fanservice was a bit much, but I remember enjoying it. The final arc could have been greatly improved if Kenichi had a bigger role. It focused too much on the masters, I feel.
Daniel Perry
Naruto is weak as shit without Kurama
Camden Davis
Goku is genetic shit x a million in Saiyans but ended up as the strongest mortal in his universe
Sebastian Garcia
Kengan Omega's currently attempting it, we'll see how it plays out
Benjamin Hernandez
>implying jutsu sexy isnt the most powerfull jutsu in the series
Mason Perry
>prodigy No Itachi is a prodigy, Naruto just has retard chakra levels. He was so shit at chakra control that his bunshins were literal dummies before Kage Bunshin.
Ryan Ortiz
>CTE Is that really were they end a shonen manga?
Ryder Gomez
And godly tankiness The women of his mothers side of the family can endure shit like having a tailed beast extracted after childbirth and then getting impaled without getting killed instantly or passing out from shock. Makes you wonder what kind of punishment Uzumaki men can take.
Chase Ross
I guess you could count it as extreme luck, but his training and progress is shown enough for me to not complain, dude earns his wins with experience and endurance which is what they train him at so he can survive. Yeah I can't really recommend it because of the fanservice, the author lost track of his story, and by the final chapters I kinda remember the boxer guy and Kenichi shooting ki blasts
Anthony Rivera
Except that is not how destiny works. He was destined to do what he did, there never was a real choice.
Liam Harris
One Piece is full of this trope done well. Most villians and side characters like Crocodile and Whitebeard are average Joes who got stronk
Bentley James
It's quite literally stated in the show that obviously it wasn't his regiment that got him as strong as he was, it's just what he thinks did it.
Evan Perry
I mean it's stated by a shocked scientist in a joke scene. That same scientist later comes up with the limiter theory and that's the best thing we got AND so far nothing contradicts it. Saitama, as funny as it was, broke his body and pushed himself to deadly limits until those weren't reachable anymore.
And we see Garou doing the exact same thing and almost succeeding. In fact, if Saitama didn't exist, he would be the one "one punching" everyone. But Saitama claims he couldn't make it because he wasn't serious about being an absolute monster, meaning that if he really was determined to kill all heroes, Garou would be OPM 2. It's nothing special, just pushing yourself to suicidal lengths
Evan Cook
This post is so divine that nobody could even bear to check those numbers.
Jordan Gomez
Kazuma from このすば
Justin Howard
Comedy shouldn't count
Isaiah Morales
Actually, wasn't there a lightnovel about a world of superhumans and monsters and shit, and there's just this one guys who fights with guns and molotov cocktails? I completely forget the name, but I remember something aboutit
David Torres
World Trigger
Cooper Stewart
>Ninja Jesus winning hearts of villains by preaching them. >Ninja Jesus makes evil monsters obey them just by talking with them.
Oliver Wood
>Had he accepted his role in the world, he'd have been happier. Wouldn't we all?
Hunter Evans
>Durrrrrrr IS THERE A LOSER PROTAGONIST THAT WORKS HARD TO SUCCEED? >example of loser protagonist achieving something with hard work and smart thinking >DURRRRRRRR THAT'S NOT AN EXAMPLE OF HARDWORK Wow, holy shit anons. Could you elucidate us by providing an example of a loser protagonist achieving something with hard work then?
Gabriel Lopez
Goku took a lot of cheap ways to archive such, not mentioning the zenkai bullshit plus beans and balls
Levi Russell
Normal genin can’t use shadow clones.
Ryder Nelson
>learn a difficult technique in one month >under any circumstances that's called talent user, naruto was talented
Literally naruto's only downside was child abuse until 12 which isn't even that old
Oliver Taylor
And the son of a super saiyan. Hell, probably the FIRST super saiyan.
Luis Wright
>Asta >Denji >Kaiman >Akira from GreenWorldz >Takashi Komuro >Alibaba from Magi
Matthew Fisher
Actions speak louder than words.
Landon Phillips
>Average Joe >literally the most powerful spiral energy user even as a wimpy ki, while Kamina with all his bravado, is only average at best at it. In some sense, but in other times he's actually a top tier ninja that can compete against any Kage-level ninjas except obviously Hashirama. If Rock Lee knows 7th Gate, he would have been extremely dangerous against the Zombies, while Neji can barely do shit in the War, and he was always known as a genius. Even as a kid, with his underdog status, he was able to make Gaara, a murderous Jinchuuriki, be serious. There is no way Ten ten, Neji or any young ninja not named Naruto or Sasuke could've done that.
Brayden Ross
Sasuga Onii-sama
Ian Sanders
He's only underdog compared to the Medaka. But compared to other characters, he's virtually untouchable and extremely OP. Wrong character, since Zenkichi has always been one of the true Underdog protagonist anyways.
Xavier Jones
this
Carson Cox
>gets recruited because he's naturally ultra-talented >trained by the most prestigous(now failed normalfag) coach Please.
James Reyes
Kaiji
Colton Price
Ippo actually is a super-genius, maybe near Takamura tier. The problem was he's too much of a fucking sponge and idolized Kamogawa too fucking much, even though Kamogawa is a fucking shitty coach. The only reason Takamura didn't fell like Ippo was because Takamura has his own style and doesn't really inherit any shitty Kamogawa oxygen style except the importance of will power and mindset. This is also why Kamogawa doesn't view Takamura as his successor, since Takamura's boxing style is too different from him, while Kamogawa was able to mold Ippo and made him inherit his boxing style, which was the tragedy.
Grayson Moore
>has never won a significant one-on-one in the entire series >natural talent/bloodline was so poor, he got rejected from joining the protagonist organization and only got in through nepotism >dies in almost every tournament battle his team fights in, can only manage to support his allies but not fight on his own >even after hard work from getting training from the top characters in the series, still gets beat cause literally everyone in the setting is also doing hard work too >still is a very likable protagonist that actually makes you root for every small victory he gets
Naruto WAS a prodigy user. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke, Kakashi etc. he didn't have anybody to guide him. Itachi had Fugaku and Shisui, two S rank teachers to guide him. He also had the support and resources of the entire Uchiha Clan as the heir. Same with Sasuke except instead of Shisui Itachi himself was helping him. Kakashi's father was the white fang, an S ranked ninja on par with the Sannin. All 3 of those prodigies had GUIDANCE. Naruto had no guidance. He grew up as an orphan, in a village where no one gave a shit about him. The Academy teachers 100% discriminated against him, which is why he kept failing a test. It was a test that was literally impossible foe a jinchuriki to pass (the massive chakra reserves meant that they would NEVER cast the bushin). Naruto furthermore had no one at home to push him or give him supplementary lessons like the called prodigies. No genin in Naruto's circumstance would've been able to cast that bushin. Period.
We know that Naruto is a prodigy because: 0. He masters Kage Bushin an S ranked jutsu in one night 1. in spite of having far larger chakra reserves than Sasuke, he still finishes the chakra control training at the same time as Sasuke. 2. In one week he masters an A ranked jutsu that even Kakashi and Jiraya both struggled to master 3. He perfects sage mode in like a month when even Jiraya and Minato both couldn't 4. He perfects rasengan when even Minato couldn't 5. In spite of having the nine tails + uzumaki chakra reserves he STILL somehow manages to train himself up to having perfect chakra reserves. 6. By 16 he is the strongest ninja EVER 7. EoS Naruto is literally creating jutsus on the fly and casually mixing elements into his rasegans. Meanwhile Kakashi needed years to make the lighting variant of rasegan (chidori) and it was still to fucking dangerous for him to use without a sharigan
Please tell me how Naruto ISN'T a prodigy who was. The kid had a slow start because of neglect
it doesn't make sense anymore if even this guy doesn't count at this rate, the average joe goal post will only keep moving with no end in sight.
Logan Morgan
Simon was never special though. When he was still a kid he needed encouragement from Kamina. Then Kamina died, Simon lost his will he wasn't able to even use Lagann. Until he remembered Kamina's words to believe in himself. That's when he became a man with unbreakable will.
Jayden Edwards
does the I am a hero protag remain pathetic the whole series?
William Stewart
It's a bit unrealistic how many girls he gets.
Gavin Long
i feel bad for his girlfriend :(
Carson Gray
YYH was ruined by the producers. They told the author to add to the series or they would, so he was forced to add all the lineage bullshit
Benjamin Bell
>because he lacks the talent and know-how to do it alone No it was because of Kurama. As soon as he and naruto where on good terms he didn't have to suppress Kurama's chakra anymore and after that he could do the rasengan with one hand. If kurama was never sealed in him Naruto's chakra control would be as good as anyone's.
Luis Bennett
Netero from HxH. Got his excessiv power from cheer hard work and training eveb though he was a low born.
Anthony Rogers
OH this shit was so fun at the beginning just watching him train was great, the fights were trash, but the training was top tier.
Hudson Brooks
Doesn't matter. It just means he isn't a loser, he has an OP abilitty from the beginning
Joseph Diaz
Waver Velvet. El Melloi II has extremely shitty magic circuit but on the other hand, possesses immense magical knowledge due to sheer effort. Although he can't use any of those magic himself because of his shitty circuit, it doesn't make him any less respectable, even by other characters in-universe.
He's a loser with a decent punch and a drive to make something of himself that got recruited by a washed out coach that was kicked out for being retarded trying to relive his glory days. Joe isn't your average Joe, but he is a hoodrat that worked for what he got and then suffered the consequences of that work.
This actually the whole point of a hero's journey, no? An average Joe goes on adventure and by the end of it it's not an average Joe anymore. The issue here is that our hero is not an average Joe at the start in any way, shape of form.
Jacob Anderson
You're still mad about your Deku thread aren't you.
Daniel Moore
Fuck off, you retarded tourist.
Jose Hall
t. tourist
Dominic Sanders
Average Joe doesn't mean complete talentless hack though. It's enough when he doesn't come from an acient famous bloodline or is chosen by destiny. Most people are good at something.
Ryan Howard
the china arc was good, but it didn't belong in shamo
Lincoln Anderson
Shamo was fun but it shat the bed at the china arc never recovered and just ended with a whimper. Was even more interesting when you knew the inner workings of karate associations (kyokushin felt like an inspiration for many shenanigans in the manga).
The series started strong for a shounen the pace and then it started degrading both in art and story.
Its deeper than that. He was reborn like shinji but evolved and matured 'kamina-like,' traits. In a way, "sheman jihah," became the leader kamina used to be.
Robert Moore
Goku was never an underdog
Ayden Hernandez
Nice.
Alexander Sanders
Deku is a massive fucking loser.
Carter Perry
>tfw some people ITT actually think saitama deserved to become the strongest being alive because he did a somewhat intensive kinesthetic + cardio program
Jace Diaz
OPM is satire.
Zachary Thomas
Yakumo from 3x3 Eyes. While he is Immortal its limited by having to keep the girl who granted it alive or he dies with her. So we see him going from struggling to survive fights even against weaker demons with just his wits to learning to use his power by training his ass off and traveling the world.
He has Conqueror's Haki that one in a million have. Also his physical strength probably runs in the blood, both his grandfather and father are top dogs of their factions.
Kevin Ross
Aside from the fact that he's the son of the most powerful alchemist ever and can use alchemy without symbols he was also talented enough to be recruited to the army as an 11 year old
But the concept of a "loser" protag as in non talented is dumb to begin with
Koga isn't an underdog. And of late he isn't a loser either, as soon as he lost his ego it turns out he's actually a very likeable and greatful kid.
Ayden Torres
I never said Baki is an average joe you mongrel, he's the literal son of the strongest creature. Kaiji and Kurosawa are average joes, even lower than average. Fucking get your brain checked.
Ryan Jenkins
Unironically Goku. Literally all his enemies were born ridiculously strong. Saiyans might be a top tier race in the universe but even their advantages (zenkai etc.) aren't that great compared to the bullshit they have to deal with. Just look at Frieza being able to catch up to their level of power in 4 months. Their greatest advantage is the fact that saiyans are battle autistic and thus never stop training, which basically just means they are hard workers while everyone else is a lazy fuck who rests on his god-given talent.
And also, Goku loses all the fucking time. His W/L is actually hilariously bad.
Xavier Fisher
I always thought it both dumb and lazy in super that it was so easy to catch up to blue and that Jiren, who wasn't said to be any particular kind of prodigy or special talent, was able to become so ridiculously powerful for just no fucking reason at all. I mean if the other people on his planet decided to train like he did, would there be a planet full of people on his level or what?
Rasengan being A rank makes no sense since its just chakra shape manipulation where as Raikiri is just an electrified arm,the jutsu ranking system makes no sense. In addition we see shinobi shape shit using elements all the time yet something like the rasengan is supposed to be so tough it took 3 years for Minato to develp it, what the actual fuck.
The point of the regime is to surpass your limits you dumb cunt. Saitama was so a literal nobody that baseline training was enough to break his limiter- that's the joke.
Jordan Watson
>it was also a reward for all the difficulties he’d come trough,
>Sure, i am the chosen one son of a ninja jesus, a demigod with demon powers, have unlimited energy and can beat up any living thing on the planet but it's okay because i was sad once when i was 5 Also, he calls the man that killed his parent "the coolest guy" so apparently they are not a big loss to him
Gavin Perry
>Lucky shittier >Sheer work
Adam Wood
Dude has been consistently dealt a shit hand in life, despite this he keeps struggling. His brute strength is the result of said struggle. The only thing that you could argue was given to him, was the dragonslayer and his cannon arm. Oh and the berserker armour. And the witch loli...
I'm begining to see your point.
Cooper Powell
I think cure moonlight was pretty based in japanese sweets episode
Carter Walker
An average joe couldn't even lift his sword.
Julian James
The funny thing is that they had scene where they said Jiren couldn't have reached this level of power just by training But then they never show what it was that he did lmao
Camden Davis
Of course he's an underdog, he's trying to fight actual superhumans with just a couple months of training on his back.
Colton James
No because it's impossible. If you were average, you wouldn't be able to get to a level beyond what others have achieved. You can't be average and be an achiever. Being achiever makes you gifted by proxy. Bieng able to motivate yourself to work isn't average either. It shows strong will and a talent to focus.
goblin slayer has batman level autism. parasyte's shinichi was lucky enough to not have his brain taken over and he's not the only half parasyte. akame ga kill's tatsumi is strong because he trained with his friends that died, then he gets a legendary weapon because everyone important has one.
Bullshit. His Mom's soul is inside the God dammed Alien-Cyborg clone thing he pilots and she is the one that does all those last resort attack in order to let him survive. He just stays there sobbing and being and autist most of the show.
Samuel Torres
To be fair, an average joe is not a compelling protagonist, technically. The reason we follow a protagonist is because there is something unusual about them that gives them the right amount of skills and personality traits to drive the story forward.
Naruto was never an average joe. He had exceptional innate talent but was held back by no one really knowing what to do with him. At the start of the story, people see him as a failure when really he's just unrealized potential in the form of a bratty kid.
The point of the story, until the Sasuke stuff, is proving people wrong.
Zachary Butler
Filtered. It's clearly been a while since you watched NGE, if you ever did.
Caleb Morgan
>To be fair, an average joe is not a compelling protagonist, technically. One of the main themes of LotR is that the fate of the whole continent lies in the hands of 4 weed smoking midgets, so it can be done
Christopher Taylor
Wasn't he still using clones and chakra arms to form rasengans during the war?
Charles Johnson
Yeah but they were perfect for it because Hobbits had an innate sturdiness that made them especially capable of carrying the ring.
Nathaniel Cook
Doesn't really master anything but shadow clones, transformations, and summoning until later in the series. He uses the clones as work arounds.
Liam Adams
He just cheeses the angels through luck.
Matthew Gutierrez
Theres also the fact that a lot of the other top tiers have incredible borderline fantasy techniques (advance, Agitos formless style) or insane genetics (Raian and Wakatsuki) but Kuroki just has his decades of training
Gabriel Hughes
True, but among hobbits they were pretty average. Plus that sturdiness really isn't the same as having some innate OP power, it's really more of a minor trait.
Luke Smith
Yeah and ultimately it only really mattered with Sam since Frodo couldn't give it up anyway.
Levi Edwards
>an innate sturdiness They were not "sturdy" or anything like that The Ring had trouble with tempting hobbits because all they really wanted to do was to smoke weed and eat cake so the promises of power and wealth were lost on them So they were perfect for the job specifically because they were so mundane
Jose Peterson
>To be fair, an average joe is not a compelling protagonist, technically It depends. This guy has already mentioned LotR, but I will go as far back as Hobbit. The character arc of Bilbo Baggins was clearly about courage, and it was compelling to read about, at least for me. >Naruto was never an average joe >innate talent but was held back by no one really knowing what to do with him Yep. >At the start of the story, people see him as a failure when really he's just unrealized potential in the form of a bratty kid This is why it was more interesting for me to watch Sasuke because he was doing cool shit. You can have a cool unusual hero doing cool unusual stuff, like DMC Dante, or you can have an underdog overcoming internal and external adversity. It's hard to do both at the same time.
Logan Evans
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in one of the texts that hobbits are particularly "stubborn", not sturdy, that was my bad. There's something that makes them more naturally inclined to be ring bearers.
They're still tempted by the ring even if their wants are kind of mundane, in the books Sam has a little fantasy of himself becoming the ultimate gardener or something.
Jacob Robinson
The guy from Gantz is an excellent example, his transformation from a slimy pervert to a capable leader is very well done
>"""""loser""""" protag born with a god given talent, legendary bloodline, or gifted some OP power lectures villains about hard work and willpower I too have seen the video of that "non-furry" artist.
So, if you succeed you're automatically disqualified from being a average Joe.
Jack Walker
Yeah, but I don't want to be happy, I enjoy my misery.
Thomas Evans
this. Sento break down after first time killing someone is also suprisingly good
Zachary Collins
One could actually make the case for Griffith. He was just a healthy, pretty, and smart kid who was born at the bottom where his smarts had no opportunity to flourish.
Liam Moore
Danzo
Sebastian Perry
What about Reinhard? He was just a son of some bankrupt noble that had to sell his own daughter to make a living.
Seriously all his masters give him nothing but shit. Stating he has no talent whatsoever, even to the point when he was finally starting to get better. He gets destroyed by an opponent that barely learned martial arts.
Carter Lewis
You will be that fucking ending was such horseshit
Charles Bell
cry me a river
Easton Lewis
That's an interesting example because while he is a complete loser physically, they asspull that orb for him to swallow and make him into a ki generator. I don't think it's bad writing though because the consequences of giving that orb persist throughout the entire first part, so they kind of justify it.
Brandon Fisher
not that I can recall, I remember him just shitting them out with his Chakra hands but not using the swirling shit, just automatically forming them
Jaxson Miller
Hasn’t even been that long since it aired but already no one remembers.
He's just a third rate duelist with a fourth rate deck. Why even bother mentioning him?
Ethan Cruz
Reinhard is a super genius in his setting when it comes to waging war.
Robert Rodriguez
Sex that he only got after becoming the strongest swordsman in Japan.
Tyler Ortiz
I think you mean the not-a-Dark-Souls-letsplayer's channel. Its an easy mistake.
Nathan Allen
Again, Yusuke could have just become a demon somehow through everything he was exposed to and it would have added to lore along with making his attitude towards it believable and not being another fucking retarded shonenshit asspull.
