Fate/Apocrypha

No? "Shirou Kotomine" is not related to F/SN's Shirou or Kirei at all

Oh ok. I should have check his name myself...

He is too smug.

Atalanta is adorable but she was terrible in Apoc.

Astolfo was the main hero of Apocrypha and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Astolfo had to save Sieg's stupid ass five frigging times, and Sieg didn't even say thank you. Sieg was a cunt. And who survived the Holy Grail War and incarnated? Oh right, Astolfo.

what if the main romance was between astolfo and mordred

F O R C E D
T R A P
B A B I E S

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Heaven's Feel kiddo

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>wtf is up with this guy, why does he dress like that
>god, he's so weak
>why does he keep trying? is he dumb?
>did he just dodge Clarent with that weird horse?
>WTF AAAAA WHERE ARE MY LEGS MOMMY HELP
Eh, I guess I could see it from a more competent writer

Dropped this after 3 ep of Astolfo. What I want is a serious Fate like Zero but Astolfo ruins it by making it mellow.

It would be good if the MC is Amakusa instead.

rip best boy

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Oh the best part!
Grail is suppose to grant one wish. Oh nevermind 2 wishes. Might as well do 3. Why did this war even happen then?

Not defending Apo but I think that it was always supposed to grant two wishes, one for the Master and one for the Servant. Well, if you ignore that part when you use command spell to force your Servant to commit suicide to get access to the Root.

But wasn't that only the case regarding lesser grail?

Semiramis was hot and Achilles' NP was cool at least

Astolfo was the only reason to watch this piece of shit.

Holy shit aposhitters are actually retarded.

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Yeah, since it was corrupted and required Servant's actually dying to fill it up with enough magic energy to grant a wish whereas the Greater Grail in Apocrypha has no need for such things.

Elaborate then. I want to know what i'm missing here.

Jeanne was possibly the worst character. I don't hate Sieg, I hate the write for not being able to do arcs and know what pacing is. DESPITE HAVING 2 FUCKING COURS THEY SOMEHOW RESOLVE THEM SO QUICKLY WHAT THE FUCK

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>I don't hate Sieg
You should. He is not the only thing what went wrong with Apo but that little faggot is the biggest offender.

Wait so its ready to use from the beginning? How so?

Well, first of all, watching it was a mistake. The anime cuts out so many scenes, key moments,internal dialogue, and information that explains alot of so-called nonsensical moments.

The worst sin isn't even Sieg. It's the writers realizing oh fuck we have three episodes left and most of the Servants are still alive. Better kill them all off in two fucking episodes in five minute fights.

Pretty much, the moment the Grail War starts up it's ready to be used but it takes time to full activate which is why Darnic and Amakusa just try to horde it rather than actively go out and seek conflict with the other side. I mean, why fight for something that's going to happen on it's own anyways?

The problem is Apocrypha needed at least ten or so more episodes. I read all the novels and so much shit is done a lot better because there was actually ample time dedicated to everything to let events and developments unfold naturally. The problem is they tried to squeeze 5 very sizable novels into 24 episodes and the largest of them all was smushed into the last 4 episodes. Also A-1 was just not the right crew for the job, they don't know how to adapt shit to save their life.

I have heard that apo was generally bad so i just wanted to check it out. Thought that fsn, ha and zero were enough to understand even alternate universe... guess not. And honestly forced myself to finish it.

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Fuck it, I'll take the bait.
>Was it so hard to just focus on the black x red conflict?
Because it would just be pretty dull. No Fate story has been JUST about the grail war and for good reason, it'd be just generic shonen shit. If you're actually just watching fate for 'lol dead guy fight other dead guy with sword' this is the wrong series for you.
>Nothing better than another deus ex machina mc.
It's pretty much spoonfed to you that events happen a certain way around Sieg because he's being used by the Counter Force to stop Amakusa's keikaku.
>Another 'all powerful servant' gets destroyed because fuck you thats why
Karna and Sieg were evenly matched thanks to advantages they had over each other and their absurd defenses. If it weren't for VS Karna couldn't defeat Sieg before the time limit ran out and it's thanks to that Sieg even had a chance to win and even after getting stabbed he could've killed Sieg if he wanted but didn't because killing Sieg was never his objective in the novels Karna actually speaks to Sieg for 10 pages afterwards to set him on the right path since he noticed Sieg was making the same mistakes he and Siegfried made in life. Karna didn't get 'destroyed'. He had his fight with Siegfried where he could give it his all and, while it was through Sieg, he got exactly that and let himself fade peacefully and with dignity. Unlike Gil who got fucked outright, lost all dignity, and was made a complete joke by Shirou.
>For once i wanted to see this 'utopia without a future' come to fruition but noooo
Yeah, in Type-Moon verse, the Counter Force is always going to set things in motion to prevents threats to the world/timeline and if it's plan A(Sieg and the entire Black Faction) failed it would've sent Counter Guardians to deal with Amakusa. His wish really never had a chance of coming true.

It's really not. Apocrypha is no masterpiece but it gets shit on by a lot of people who don't know what's going on/angry jannu fanboys. The anime is especially bad because it literally cut 80% of everyone's individual arcs, key moments, internal thoughts, and explanations out of the story and everything important that happens in such a '-and then this happened because reasons' way it makes it a genuinely shitty adaptation. Arguably worse than DEEN's stay night adaptation and that's saying alot.

I wasn't really talking about Karna since very convenient shield of Achilles appeared. Semiramis was shown as second coming of Gilgamesh and yet one command spell, half-dead servant and some drug did the trick. Like come one. Shirou vs gil was far better than this because they explain why it worked.

>Evilcat: *kills Jack*
>Also Evilcat: WHAT THE FUCK JEANNE YOU CAN'T JUST KILL JACK THINK OF THE CHILDREN IM GOING BERSERK
What did she mean by this?

Also how is it even possible for Jeanne to delete servants from the Throne of Heroes? I remember this being described as "literally impossible" in FSN. For one, if Jack was really absent from the Throne then she wouldn't be able to be summoned in the first place since the Throne exists outside of time and therefore her being deleted in the future means that she isn't there at all points in the past. This is doubly retarded since you can summon Jack in FGO without any problems. Hell, why doesn't EMIYA just ask Jannu to wipe him? He lives like right down the hall from her in my Chaldea.

Also, this same logic applies to Jeanne herself. If she walks off the Throne then it should be impossible for her to ever be summoned.

Not the OP.
>Because it would just be pretty dull. No Fate story has been JUST about the grail war and for good reason, it'd be just generic shonen shit. If you're actually just watching fate for 'lol dead guy fight other dead guy with sword' this is the wrong series for you.
And somehow Apocrypha managed to become the dullest shit in Fate. There were better possible protagonists and we stuck with a blank state homunculus. This is a bad decision on its own but in a medium like anime or light novel, it is even worse.
About the shounen shit argument, we've got a generic good guys vs bad guys plot. I fail to see how red vs black or battle royale could be worse.
>It's pretty much spoonfed to you that events happen a certain way around Sieg because he's being used by the Counter Force to stop Amakusa's keikaku.
I don't have anything against CF but that does not justify any possible asspull or plot hole. People are not in the wrong for getting pissy that Fran was wasted as a mana battery or that Siegfried, potentially very interesting character, served only as a sacrifice.

Sucks to be you because I really enjoyed the show expect ever scene with Sieg, Jeanne and Sieg together or the stupid children arc. Definitly the best fights of any fate anime and the best OST.

Why are fateshitters always so retarded? Apocrypha wasn't complicated, how do you still manage to misinterpret it?

The children arc wasn't bad per se, but serving as a vehicle to make the catgirl mad was retarded. It was literally just to give her something to do.

The LNs are supposedly a lot better but I've never read them

Oh, my bad. Yeah, I understand but you know Mordred gets a free-pass because she's hot and loud. Nah, but for real, the thing to note about CS-spells is that they're actually extremely broken so I could actually plausibly see how Mordred pulled off that last attack on Semi. Still I'm with you on that one and the fight in the novel doesn't paint it being any better since Mordred was all but getting fucked until CS-power up let her no-sell Semi's counterattacks and get that one good shot in.

Final Sieg vs Karna looked bit of to me. And it's not like i dislike everything in it. I was just expecting something more. It started promising but then sieg awakens. I had bad feeling that he would just resolve everything in the end. And sadly i was right. More plotting behind the scenes would be preferably to his whole arc.

And somehow Apocrypha managed to become the dullest shit in Fate.
Well you're entitled to your opinion but do recall shit like Extra, the early chapter of FGO, and Fragments exist before you state that claim.
>There were better possible protagonists and we stuck with a blank state homunculus. This is a bad decision on its own but in a medium like anime or light novel, it is even worse.
See, here's the thing with this blank slate argument. Sieg was a blank slate of sorts but he always had an inhuman quality and innocent to his thoughts and actions seperating him from the usual run of the mill average highschool protags and gave him something that defined him unlike Hakuno in Extra and he received a natural progression from scared homunculus to the person who starts off a blank canvas but gets painted over by his experiences and the heroes around him by the end of the war. He doesn't have the most colorful personality but he does get very solid development and characterization throughout the story. The anime sadly sucked a lot of his personality and humanizing moments out like his moments of PTSD, his crying when having to get his dead brothers and sisters out of their tanks because he was too late in saving them, his fits of rage where he nearly strangles Gordes and throws him aside, his jabs at Astolfo and Jeanne ocassionally(though they're due to his innocent rather than trying to snark), his clumsiness and awkardness in trying to handle conversations outside of fighting. All gone. And he's a completely barebones and weak protagonist because of it.
>About the shounen shit argument, we've got a generic good guys vs bad guys plot.
No one on the red or black side are bad guys is the thing. Amakusa genuinely wants to save the world, Achilles wants to settle things with his teach, Atlanta can't overlook Jeanne's actions because it stomps all over her own life, Semi is legitimately dedicated to amakusa, shakes is..well Shakes. No bad guys. No good guys.

You mean it wasn't complicated as in most important things happen just 'because'? Knk premise was to confuse people i guess but appo did the trick far better.
Only shirou vs berserk come close to lvl of convenient ass pulls such as these.

>his crying when having to get his dead brothers and sisters out of their tanks because he was too late in saving them
Pity there wasn't anything like this shown.
It's not much as his personality thats bad. I could forgive whole siegfried heart thing. But berserk one at the end? No way. He is just to impactful than necessary. And the fact that everyone just throws themselves to defend him is just comical.

>I don't have anything against CF but that does not justify any possible asspull or plot hole. People are not in the wrong for getting pissy that Fran was wasted as a mana battery or that Siegfried, potentially very interesting character, served only as a sacrifice.
An asspull is something that comes out of nowhere and plot hole is something that contradicts events in the story and makes it nonsensical. Neither Siegfried or Fran's powers being transferred to Sieg are either of these since both are thoroughly explained and foreshadowed multiple times throughout the story. Fran's in particular is a well-placed Chekov's gun and a bit of a dramatic irony when you remember Amakusa challenged Fran early in the story and said if god wanted to stop him he would die to her and he does through Sieg who is the embodiment of his ideal of perfection turned inside out. The CF isn't just used as a convenient excused it's pretty much the force of 'fate' in Fate and ties people, arcs, and events together well. Siegfried's sacrifice also sets up the narrative of people fulfilling their desires by doing the things they want rather than the things asked of them.

>shitting on Hakuno and defending Sieg
Again, the difference between mediums. Extra is a video game and placed in an entirely different setting, alien to the audience. Hakuno as blank state protagonist works because of that and also he has a valid reason to fight in HGW - he has to because otherwise, he will be killed.
Sieg, on the other hand, is escorted away and Jeanne even finds him a home. He has no need to join the HGW but he does. His reason? "Well, I guess I could kinda help other homunculi I guess. I have nothing better to do after all." He then proceeds to steal the spotlight from other, much more interesting characters.
Besides, Apocrypha shits on so much lore. Why a shitty knockoff homunculus designed by Yggdmillennia shitters from stolen Enzbern blueprints is so good at both magic and melee while Sella was almost a cripple and Leysritt was borderline handicapped? It's like they were producing Irisviel en masse. How is a Servant able to just quit the Throne and go to the reverse side of the world?

every time someone makes a Apocrypha thread I always think its a thinly veiled astolfo thread every time

>only two images
Doesn't seem like it, user.

>But berserk one at the end? No way. He is just to impactful than necessary. And the fact that everyone just throws themselves to defend him is just comical.
Berserker's presence was always in the story. She's pretty much the only thing letting him keep his human form through Apocrypha. By Volume 5 Sieg's grown extremely painful scales all over his body and was dying due to dragon's blood in his veins. Fran was the only thing keeping him alive and it becomes more and more apparent as the story goes along. And again, the is something cut from the story as 'oh guess sieg's arm just turned black a bit' when it was tons more gruesome comparable to Shirou growing swords out of his body. And on the everyone defending him point. The only one who didn't have to are Astolfo and Siegfried.
Siegfried only saved Sieg for his own reasons, not due to owing Sieg anything or knowing him. It's just something he wanted to do on his own.
Astolfo is a hero and just wanted to help someone who asked him for help, Sieg coming back and getting killed trying to save him from Mordred and then joining the war to keep Astolfo alive and expressing his belief in Astolfo in spite of his weakness is what makes Astolfo loyal and defensive towards him.
Jeanne is projecting on him since she was also someone guided by fate/god to fulfill a certain role and while she was okay with what happened to herself she doesn't want Sieg to be left to a cruel fate if it can be prevented. As she develops feelings for him it gets worse because she's torn between using him and trying to get him to leave but either way she can't just let him die.
Chiron is the same deal with astolfo being a hero who just helped someone who needed help and bonding with Sieg overtime due to them being allies so yeah he would also want to defend him
Mordred only saves Sieg due to her sharing a similar past and a bit of sympathy for a fellow homunculi who also found their own will and trying to live for themselves.

Is foreshadowing somehow making this better? You can
Also why does he become a master to begin with? No new masters can join after the war starts. So what makes him special? Did the yggdmillenia use their blood or something to make their homonculus? I don't get it.

> You can
Whoops
You can foreshadow everything.

I see that many things that are rather important are just gone... Still i don't get how frank influence him at all.
Siegfried was fine for me since they actually explain his desired wish. He had no motivation to begin with so thats fine.

This is the anime's fault. There's no bit of Jeanne taking Sieg to stay at Serge's. They both stop there for the night after meeting since Jeanne was exhausted. Sieg wanted to help the homuncuil from the beginning but wasn't fully aware of it until Jeanne pointed out the feelings he had but couldn't contextualize just yet. Once he realizes he does he decides to go and save them because they saved him and he knows what kind of suffering they're going through and knows if he doesn't no one else will. When he does join the HGW it's because he negotiates with the Ygg's to take Saber's place in exchange for their freeing his siblings and using their resources to take care of them for the rest of the short lifespans. Then he bonds with Astolfo and Jeanne and decides he wants to help them since they helped him and feels that it's the least he could do. It's all a cover though because at his core he just wants something to live for and something he can give his life for to make it so Siegfried's sacrifice had meaning. He's trying to justify his existence and he starts acting more and more like Siegfried until he realizes what he wants of himself for himself thanks to Leaticial/Jeanne and Karna. He has an actual full arc and motivations besides just wanting to survive.
>Besides, Apocrypha shits on so much lore. Why a shitty knockoff homunculus designed by Yggdmillennia shitters from stolen Enzbern blueprints is so good at both magic and melee while Sella was almost a cripple and Leysritt was borderline handicapped? It's like they were producing Irisviel en masse.
Sieg was defective and couldn't even use his magic without nearly dying until Siegfried's heart was implanted in him and his circuits bonded with it, giving him a strong constitution. He's not good at fighting until the end because letting himself be possessed by Siegfried he slowly gets Siegfried's sword skills embedded into his senses thanks to his battles in the war and fights with fafnir while sleep.

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Funny thing is that Shirou and Semiramis 'romance' if you can call it that is more believable than mc and jeanne.
Can't help but wonder how much better mc kotomine would be.

>How is a Servant able to just quit the Throne and go to the reverse side of the world?
Servants are able to leave the throne anytime they just aren't able to manifest without the proper link and supply of mana which is why contracts are necessary. Jeanne was trying to get to the Reverse Side and she could leave as many times as she wanted but getting their was extremely hard and it still took her possibly tens of thousands of years to get there and she's able to stay there because the Reverse Side is pretty much a world of mana and she can easily exists there once she actually made it.

OP is upset cause astolfo turned him gay

>Sieg was defective and couldn't even use his magic
I'm pretty sure he had a shitton of mana on top of his knowledge of magecraft. And even ignoring him, there was an army of homunculi fighters. Again, how can they work equally as good or even better than Einzbern ones even though Einzberns are master alchemists using their own formula while Yggdmillennia is a bunch of tryhards using some stolen blueprints?

This thread is nice and all but can anyone beat Vasavi Shakti?

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>Servants are able to leave the throne anytime
That's bullshit. Emiya and Scheherazade tried that and failed. The only Servant who managed to accomplish that feat was a Grand Caster who had to use his NP to erase himself.
Servants don't even leave the Throne during HGW. Grail just creates their copy and after the war ends, the original sitting in the Throne gets the memories of their copy.

>Also why does he become a master to begin with? No new masters can join after the war starts. So what makes him special?
New Master's can join after the war starts through various circumstances. Sieg becomes a Master because he's bonded with Siegried yet still recognized as a separate existence. Sieg became a Master not by taking in the heart but by taking up Siegried's soul in that spirit realm he goes into which caused a pseudo contract between the two. The command spells tie Siegfried/Fafnir to Sieg's soul and anytime he uses one it's summoning Siegfried over his own existence using his heart as the catalyst. But doing so erodes Sieg's own existence slowly and leads to the scales and dragon blood poisoning him. He's both his own Master and Servant.

holy based user
it's rare to see someone who was not riding a hatewagon and a decent person with a solid argument.
here's a pasta for ya
pastebin.com/5MmiWFhT

They can but they can't just leave for Earth or anywhere without the proper set up which is why the Grail and HGW is crucial to their manifestation. Jeanne's only worked because she had an actual destination that could support her existence, that being the Reverse Side. The Jeanne in the throne and during apocrypha are the same. She didn't get a copy, she had to possess Laeticia since Kotomine Shirou was already or rather STILL there since the last war. She's a special case. And again, she had to try countless times to do so only to constantly pulled back to it so it's not like she flawlessly performed this feat even with a proper escape route it was still difficult as hell but she had infinite retries and literally nothing better to do.

Thats very specific. And apparently works only with homunculus. Never heard of something like that before.

>The Jeanne in the throne and during apocrypha are the same. She didn't get a copy,
This is not how the Throne of Heroes works. When a servant is summoned the summoner only gets a copy of the heroic spirit, who's existence is preserved on the Throne. It's like a copy of information that is stored on a hard disk being temporarily saved to RAM for quick access. Why the fuck doesnt EMIYA just fuck off to the Reverse Side if it's so easy? Shit is stupid.

I'm pretty sure he had a shitton of mana on top of his knowledge of magecraft. And even ignoring him, there was an army of homunculi fighters. Again, how can they work equally as good or even better than Einzbern ones even though Einzberns are master alchemists using their own formula while Yggdmillennia is a bunch of tryhards using some stolen blueprints?
Because Gordes tweaked them specifically for fighting and being used as prana batteries at the cost of short lifespans where as Leys, Sella, and Iri have longer lifespans. Sieg and the batteries only had three years to live and the battle types like Toole only had a few months to a year at most to live. It's equivalent exchange, power for longevity. Gordes wasn't trying to have them do much but be canon fodder and Servant food so that's what he focused on while making them.

If the combined forces of a CS-boosted Balmung and Achilles shield couldn't do the job, than I don't think so, chief.

This

>They can
No, they can't. It is always a copy, except Saber in FSN and that was because she was alive.
>And again, she had to try countless times to do so only to constantly pulled back to it so it's not like she flawlessly performed this feat
That's a fucking bullshit still. Emiya and Scheherazade had not worse reasons to try to escape from the Throne and they weren't able to do that. Apocrypha shits on the whole Fate.

Which means it's not an asspull, you autist.

i believe a point blank range VS against Fafnir just barely scratched its scales

>not riding a hatewagon
The only thing i have heard about appo before watching it was that it was bad. As far as anime goes i understand why.
The main problem appo has is that there are too many characters at least in this format. Not to mention that there are bunch of heroes that act almost identical. And all these heroes act together so there is not exchange of ideas or motives. No one talks. And no simple one liners don't count as hmmmm interesting interaction.

Pretty much. Because their souls and circuits are pure and allow for all sort of transformations and absorbing certain aspects. Their like blank hardrives. It's why Iri and Illya can become such a huge magical construct like the Holy Grail itself. If a human had the same situation, they would die pretty much outright. Shirou got lucky since he and Archer were the same person and we see how that still panned out though that was due to their ideological differences at that point if I recall.

Nah, it just grazed his wings, I think.

Heh why go for name calling?
I don't care how you name it. The fact that it's just the way to defeat enemy with snap of fingers remains.

This is not how the Throne of Heroes works. When a servant is summoned the summoner only gets a copy of the heroic spirit, who's existence is preserved on the Throne. It's like a copy of information that is stored on a hard disk being temporarily saved to RAM for quick access.
You have to remember though. Jeanne was summoned by the Grail itself, not a summoner and her class was already filled in by Amakusa who was still there from the last war. Jeanne brings this up when explaining her summoning failed for some unknown reason and thus the her in the throne was forced to possess laeticia in order to manifest rather than following the norms of summoning a heroic spirit.
>Why the fuck doesnt EMIYA just fuck off to the Reverse Side if it's so easy? Shit is stupid.
Because he's a Counter Guardian and not a proper heroic spirit. While they function similarly they're not the same and don't have the same perks as the other. That's why EMIYA's only hope was the miracle of being summoned into the same war as Shirou to cause a paradox and get himself out of it. Otherwise he probably would have have done so. Since we know the Reverse Side exists since Shirou makes it to Avalon which is where Britain would be on the Reverse Side.

I see so everything can be just CS. Nice no need for any planning logic or anything.
Muh look this person is a god now. Don't think about it too much. It just happens.

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Yeah, Command Spells are busted as hell since the magic power they're capable of producing can actually bend space. Besides controlling Servant's, there's a reason why they're so valuable to Masters. Which really put in perspective how absurdly powerful Vasavi Shakti is to be able to overcome a Balmung boosted by one of those AND Achilles Shield on top of it.

Why does Waver remember Iskandar in this time line?

>was forced to possess laeticia in order to manifest rather than following the norms of summoning a heroic spirit
That's just typical Pseudoservant or Demiservant stuff, nothing particularly special. If you were correct FGO Zhuge Liang and many others would be also free from the Throne which is obviously incorrect.
>Because he's a Counter Guardian and not a proper heroic spirit.
I'll give you benefit of doubt on that one, even though I still disagree. What about Scheherezade then?
Also fix your quotes.

I honestly, can't tell you. Just seemed like Zero-pandering/promotion for the Case Files series coming up more than anything since we know the last Grail War was the one 60 years ago with Amakusa as the proper Ruler class in that one and Waver isn't close to that old. Unless there was some sort of mini-war happening in Fuyuki or some shit but they never explain that and it's an anime-only addition I believe.

If i don't like appo will i like FGO?

Waver participated a minor grail war and won if I remember correctly. He even stated that Assassin is the most broken servant in a GW which has a decent win ratio on their record

Depends. I hate Apo and like FGO but that's just me. You can give it a shot or watch it on youtube if you want to.

>That's just typical Pseudoservant or Demiservant stuff, nothing particularly special. If you were correct FGO Zhuge Liang and many others would be also free from the Throne which is obviously incorrect.
I see where you're coming from, but Ruler's tend to be special cases since they're not just the standard Servants but one's summoned by the Grail itself to oversee the war. They have memories of past wars they haven't been in and naturally retain memories of wars they have participated in. It's what Jeanne's talking about when she bring up certain things never happening in a prior war. Usually Jeanne would be summoned normally like other Servant's were but due to the case of this particular war, she had to possess Laeticia by coming down from the Throne herself. The connection is supported by the Grail and Laeticia's soul being a perfect match for housing Jeanne's own. The circumstances alone compared to the others is very different. I don't know what's going on with FGO unless they retconned some stuff late but otherwise the sheer amount of particular differences between Jeanne's case and others explains plenty. There's also noting she had knowledge on the Reverse Side thanks to her visions and her and Sieg's promise providing a connection for her to follow similar to Saber and Shirou's in Fate's Avalon ending. The bases are pretty much covered.
>I'll give you benefit of doubt on that one, even though I still disagree. What about Scheherezade then?
Alright then we shall agree to disagree. As for the other part, I'll have to read up on Scheherazade, but as mentioned above I doubt she has the same circumstances in her case that Jeanne had which is why it doesn't work for her. But I can't speak with a hundred percent faith since I can only speak on the parts I DO know, you know?

I like Apocrypha but can't really get into FGO myself so I can't speak fairly, but give it a try for yourself or like other user said watch stuff on youtube to see if you're interested in the story.

>fgotard

waver joined in a mini holy grail war and by fate (or hack), his story isnt much different from fate zẻro

>she had to possess Laeticia
As I said, that's a typical Pseudo/Demiservant. We've seen them many times, sometimes they were Divine Spirits too strong to be summoned, sometimes they were just famous generals. It doesn't prove anything unless specifically told by Nasu. Which I believe wasn't as I never saw any quote about that subject.
>similar to Saber and Shirou's in Fate's Avalon ending
That is one of the things that pisses me off so much. Shirou had a strong connection to Artoria and the Sheath, spent his whole life to access Avalon (which is not even impossible for humans, just difficult as fuck) and even had Merlin's guidance. And Jeanne just quitted the Throne and waltzed to the Reverse Side. Fuck this shit. She has neither NP associated with Reverse Side not a phantasmal power yet she does this.
>Scheherazade
She had a much better plan than Emiya had and probably was even more persistent than he was, yet she still failed.

I'm not really interested in a game itself. Babylonia animu i coming and well as a sucker for gil i want to check it out with appropriate knowledge.

Wanna see Lancer NOT dying?

That would be a nice change.

I would have liked more Shishigari and Mo and less Sieg. A decent amount of effort was put into the supporting cast, so why is Sieg such a blank slate that gets powers and allies whenever it's convenient to the plot? Siegfried's identity crisis and resolution to sacrifice himself happens in the blink of an eye too. It's so rushed it just feels like a half-assed excuse to give Sieg superpowers. They probably wanted Sieg to be a foil for Amakusa but we barely get any development for him either, not even enough to explain Semiramis attachment.

I think it would have helped a lot if Sieg was born at least a couple weeks before the HGW started, and lived among people for more than like 2 days. He's been alive for less than a month and has only met like a dozen people in that time, so trying to have an ideological fight with Amakusa on essentially antinatalism is laughable.

Karna has always been a stupid, whimsical character who's only consistent trait is that he will get in the protagonist's way and everyone will say it's somehow honorable. There's no nuance to him at all.

Darnic and Vlad are also extremely underutilized. How Heroic Spirits react to their own legend and the state of the lands they once protected is a very interesting concept that should have been explored more. Darnic was a mage who worked for Nazi Germany and robbed Zouken of the Greater Grail. I would have loved more scenes of all that happening.

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>That's why EMIYA's only hope was the miracle of being summoned into the same war as Shirou to cause a paradox and get himself out of it.
This wouldn't have worked. This is stated explicitly. Even if he killed his own younger self (ignore for the moment that the Shirou in UBW is not the Shirou who would become Archer) it wouldn't delete himself from the Throne because the Throne is outside of time, if he made a pact in the future than regardless of what happens to him in the past he is still in regardless.

This is also a paradox with regards to Jannu leaving the Throne. If she leaves in the future and the Throne exists outside of time then she shouldn't be eligible to be summoned at all, ever, because she isn't on the Throne at any point in the past.

Apocrypha is really dumb.

>He's been alive for less than a month and has only met like a dozen people in that time, so trying to have an ideological fight with Amakusa on essentially antinatalism is laughable.
Exactly... And of course Jeanne quickly just goes with it. And well i'm getting pretty tired of the same argument about free will and future everytime the idea of utopia appears.

>This is also a paradox with regards to Jannu leaving the Throne. If she leaves in the future and the Throne exists outside of time then she shouldn't be eligible to be summoned at all, ever, because she isn't on the Throne at any point in the past.
You're looking at it the wrong way. The Throne of Heroes exists outside the throne of time, sure and she leaves it at some point, but the events that happen outside the Throne do still happen regardless. It's a matter of 'this is this, and that and that'. They're fairly separate matters because the Throne exists outside of the matters of time not on all spectrum of times.

>Jeanne leaves the Throne [at any point]
>Therefore by how the Throne works, she is not on the Throne at EVERY point
>Therefore logically she should not be on the Throne for summoning no matter when the war occurs
>But that doesn't count and she gets summoned anyway because "this is this and that is that lol"
No

If something exists outside the concept of time, matters concerning time are automatically irrelevant to it. Past, present, future no longer have meaning to it. It's not hard to understand. Whatever actions taken while on the throne have no effect on events outside it. The outside carries on normally since matters concerning the Throne are completely cut off from it.

You refuse to understand. Perhaps a picture would help.

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Jeanne d'Arc was like 19 when she was burned and her entire military career was about 6 months. Remember she was never a king or an emperor like a lot of other HS, and claimed she never actually killed anyone in combat. Making her a naive, idealistic idiot is fitting.

Also Nasu seems to think Jeanne was somehow abandoned or betrayed but she was captured by enemy forces and multiple attempts to rescue her were made. No court or figurehead outside of England and its allies in the Hundred Years' War sanctioned the conditions of her imprisonment, the charge, or the sentence.

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no
Just look up the bablyonia creation myth. Specifically stuff with the primordial gods. You'll start to piece things together

she got betrayed by god

Why are you talking like Jannu's the one who got pulled along by Sieg? If anything it's the other way around. He's clearly the one influenced by her and her ideals and all he says during the conflict is that for all the shit he's been through and knowing there's ton of evil in the world he wants to believe in the good because what good he experienced meant so much to him. Jannu is just inspired by seeing the good in people she believes in within Sieg despite everything and is the one who goes full idealism against Amakusa because that's always been her stance to begin with she just fumbled with it a bit until the end.

It was a kangaroo court. She was charged with crossdressing and they literally stole her women's clothing and had that guards molest her to force her to cover up with men's clothing. My take away was the English are monsters. God and the French church didn't do anything wrong.

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All we were trying to do was summon Jeanne D'Arc Alter Santa Lily.
Surely you can't blame us for that?

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Apocrypha's end take place possibly tens of thousands of years after Apocrypha. We know for certain it at least occurs after FGO. That's a fairly large space of time between Jannu's existing in it and her leaving, If we're running with this logic there are still plenty of points she could still exists and have been summoned after the events of Apo but before reuniting with Sieg without disrupting the timeline, right?

fucking anglos.

>I don't understand the Throne of Heroes isn't a jail for famous dead people, and that they still have a degree of sentience
Both the Throne of Heroes and the Reverse Side of the World are magical/spiritual planes. Servants can't just jailbreak their way into the mortal world without being summoned.

Except Jesus
Jesus is the only example

Time doesn't exist as far as the Throne of Heroes and the Reverse is concerned. Jeanne tried a potentially infinite number of times to reach Sieg, but in relative Earth time that might have been only a split second.

Anime Sieg:
faggot ass brown hair
generic 'average highschool teenager' face
doesn't emote, stares blankly into camera
never contributes to discussion
doesn't think for himself just dragged along by story
constantly in woe is me mode yet never suffers or really struggles

Novel/Manga Sieg;
inhumanly perfect features
baller silver hair
actually pretty ripped
manly chest scar
Actually pretty expressive, turn into one of the more emotional members of the cast by the 4th and 5th volume
cute and endearing
thinks for himself, all his actions are of his own volition and choice
not afraid to speak up and occassionally take charge of a conversation
laughs, jokes, cries, gets pissed off, laughs like a madman and eats fafnir alive
goes through struggles and suffering on par with heaven feel's shirous with the dragon scales and organs growing inside him and his existence getting eroded by fafnir
powers are thoroughly explained and foreshadowed
takes advice of others to heart but still ultimately seeks his own answers

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This is actually a really good read. Thanks user.

Karna got gang banged by Astolfo, Ruler, Sieg, and Achile's shield.

I enjoy FGO but I dropped Apo since it was so shitty. Go to /fgoalter/ on /vg/ if you need help since this isn't the right place to talk about FGO.

>the point
>
>your head

So uh when is the LN getting translated

I found it entertaining
the animation was also good

Why can't any Fate show match Shirou and Kerry as protagonists? It's not like the foundation isn't there. I'm not saying you have to go full Trace On/Brain off, but there is a way to make interesting main characters other than these bland pieces of wood we've been getting in Extra, Apo and the upcoming GO

>Definitly the best fights of any fate anime
UBW or Zero
>and the best OST.
Deen/Stay Night

>Merlin, the caster of casters has to line up all kinds of bullshit and punch a hole in the place in order to get Shirou there
>Lol, I got in by just trying to walk in long enough

Makes sense to me

>Achile's shield
Since when could servants use NPs of other servants?

Would love to see Jesus as an FGO servant.

1-4 are basically translated already. You have to go to canons site for v3 and we're still waiting on him to do v5. It's been so damn long though. I have a friend who can understand moonrunes to i had him give me cliffnotes a few months back.

He's under the class "Saviour".
And no, you will never summon him.

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Amakusa was a real person and a catholic martyr , regarded as a 'folk saint' of the people, as opposed to a canonized saint like jeannu
>"By the age of 15, the charismatic youth was known to his Japanese Catholic followers as "heaven's messenger". Miraculous powers were attributed to him"

Astolfo has legends of borrowing the NPs of others, and Achilles has mentions of lending his items. It only really works with those two.

Shirou is a human who doesn't know how to get to Avalon on his own, Jannu is a Heroic Spirit with infinite number of retries and actually has the knowledge on to get to the Reverse Side. There's a difference user.

Not a single person has managed to either escape death or return from it

kerry was a shit protagonist though
shirou was the only good fate protagonist

>"I've come... to end all Grail Wars"

>Apoc threads

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This. People only remember him because of tragic backstory and his fake badass persona when he's literally just an unstable manchild.

>Watching Apocrypha's even shittier anime adaptation
Nah G.

Yeah, even if the grail wasn't tainted, he was planning on betraying the Einzberns anyway for his wish, even though activating the Heaven's Feel would also accomplish his goal. What a retard

Mastah, sumanai but the books...

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>wish, even though activating the Heaven's Feel would also accomplish his goal.
Both it wouldn't. Just becoming immortal doesnt fix people's personalities. If everyone became disembodied spirits tomorrow, their character flaws which were causing suffering the day before would still be there. This is why Amakusa's dream was Heaven's Feel PLUS brainwashing, to not only make everyone immortal+invincible but also to scrub the "evil" from their souls.

My biggest gripe about Apocrypha was that if Sieg was meant to be the protagonist, why the FUCK was he introduced later in the show than at the start? That bait that made us expect a kickass necromancer dude with notSaber was a tease that led to nothing but two good fights and a shitty excuse to kill them off. Even more annoying is that Astolfo won without doing anything.

Yeah, Sieg's biggest problem is that there's a better protagonist right there. It's like the author got cold feet after the first volume

What would have changed if Sieg had fallen in love with Mordred instead of Jannu
>Saber and Shirou are sipping tea on the reverse side
>suddenly a hole explodes in the sky
>in comes a massive fucking dragon
>and Mordred of all people is riding it
>"Aha, so you're here too, father! It's now time to settle this once and for all! Hey, who's that next to you?"
Imagine Saber's fucking face

>Introduce badass Terminator-looking motherfucker with long hair
>Have him tame the most wild Saber
>Show them having one hell of a good dynamic
>Randomly switch to the villain team, show them being assholes because why the fuck not, they're bad guys
>Have one of their fodder soldiers wish to be a real boy
>Completely abandon everything that was cool in the first three episodes
>Astolfo decides to join noname because why not
>The duo literally do nothing for half the show
>Necrobro and Mordred are just "hey, remember us?" gags for the rest of the show
Still mad.

>Saber, who's that? She looks like you.
>Dunno, Shirou. Merlin, take that person away. Avalon is for Kings of Britain and their family, not some riffraff.

Fucking this. It's even more infuriating because they have great chemistry while Jannu and Sieg are both boring as fuck and the romance is really forced.

Best thing to come out of it was soundtrack.
youtube.com/watch?v=2OtSYxGu-lI

Nigga what? Sieg was introduced from the start in a flash-forward talking about how he made the entire Reverse Side his domain of pride and being surprised to see Jeanne after so many years. I don't get how so many people thought Morded and Kairi were going to be the protags when Fate always did shit like this. And to be honest they probably wouldn't work as protags anyways since their novelty would wear off pretty quick. I like both of them but they're great in smaller doses and using them too much could've done more harm than good to them. For what we got of them and all the nice convos and moments in the novel especially their last talk in Kairis car before the last fight is one of my favorite scenes. Also Astolfo won because he worked with everyone, he took down Semi's barrier, distracted Karna to let Jeanne get on the Hanging Gardens until Sieg stepped up, shielded Sieg from VS, and saved Caules and Laeticia later. He didn't have any big epic fights but he didn't just sit on his ass either.

>What would have changed if Sieg had fallen in love with Mordred instead of Jannu
You don't know how well this actually would've worked and I will never not be mad.

The Throne is not some actual plane where the HS can do anything, it's more like a database that also records the power of the heroes and can be tapped into.

Yeah i feel you also,
>Worst Saber won
>Karna Losing
>Fucking Vlad going full Vampire, fucking stupid.
At least Shakespeare was handled well

>And to be honest they probably wouldn't work as protags anyways since their novelty would wear off pretty quick
As opposed to Sieg who is the ideal protagonist?

Yea i too prefer to have generic mc #102123 instead of guy that i would remember.

Yeah, the ass was in too heavy use to let it just lay down somewhere.

For this story, yeah. Sieg works because his arc naturally ties into Shirou's and the central conflict between him and Jeanne and is relevant to his arc and development. That said, in terms of function Sieg serves more as the supporting protagonist to Jeanne until the end. Jeanne pushes the story forward, gets the Black Faction together, and opposes Amakusa who is her foil as a hero and saint. Mordred and Kairi have no personal stake against Shirou. Mordred in particular's development and resolution is something that's extremely personal to herself. She's a straightforward character who doesn't really ponder on the deeper meaning of the questions that Amakusa as an antagonist brings up where Sieg and Jeanne do. Mordred and Kairi wouldn't care what he has to say and would just wipe him out and go about their business. And there's nothing wrong with that since it's in their character but it doesn't work for Apocrypha's story.

kek.

Apocrypha is a bad story and because of that, you might argue that Sieg is a fitting protagonist. If it weren't unnecessarily philosophical and was a proper HGW it would be much more enjoyable as a story and Kairi with Mordred would be great as protagonists. Really, what a wasted potential it was.

>Apocrypha is a bad story
Elaborate.
If it weren't unnecessarily philosophical and was a proper HGW it would be much more enjoyable as a story
Every Fate story is philosophical. The HGW is just a vehicle for the philosophies being argued. FSN, UBW, HF, Zero, EXTRA, Apocrypha, Fragments, all of these stories have been philosophical at their core. None of the stories are objectively bad, it's just if you don't have a taste for that kind of stuff, you personally probably wont be able to enjoy it.

>Elaborate.
The arguments of both sides were already mulled over many times, even including other Fate stories. Nothing new, nothing interesting.
Other entries maybe weren't that revelatory (that is also why Kerry and sometimes Shirou get the flak) but these were done fairly well. Shirou is an insane guy suffering from a survivors guilt and Kiritsugu is a broken man forcing himself to do greater good. I am not claiming that it was something completely new but because of its execution, it had a hint of fresh air. Comparing to them, Apo was just unnecessary, worse and naive. It would do better as a refresher of the franchise to lay foundations for future entries but it tried too much to be Fate Route 2 Electric Bogaloo and failed.

That's the thing. While Apocrypha was written as a love-letter to the Fate franchise, FSN and Zero were about ideals and reality and the friction that arises between them whereas Apocrypha is about differing perspectives, humanity, fate, desire, and sacrifice. It doesn't just apply to the main characters but the side-characters as well and everything comes together like pieces of a puzzle. It doesn't touch on the same things earlier entries did except with Siegfried who exits the story pretty early on. Sieg is a tool of fate trying desperately to justify his own existence by throwing himself into conflict after conflict out of feelings he's obligated to in order to make Siegfried's sacrifice worth something and find value in his own life even if it's through death. Where Shirou and Kerry feels worth 'less' than others and are effectively broken people, Sieg feels 'worthless' as what is essentially an empty person and his arc is finding his own worth and desires and beliefs by throwing away the very perfection that Amakusa is trying to force upon the world. It's very much it's own thing but most don't really bother to look deeper into it and it gets more hate than it really deserves. At worst, it's a perfectly fine if somewhat flawed story but you would swear it's the worst thing ever because a shitty anime adaptation that cuts a ton of content and an extremely vocal hatedom that doesn't actually know most of what they're talking about and constantly complains it's not the thing they wanted to be instead of looking at it for what it is and finding merit in that.

Apocrypha isn't really philosophical, sure there's a bunch of servants fighting for their past and ideals, but it's kinda ruined by Sieg and his two braidsluts going around telling everyone No, fuck you, bad things are bad

>Sieg and his two braidsluts going around telling everyone No, fuck you, bad things are bad
Literally never happens. Sieg only says anything close to this effect to Gilles when Gilles says there's no such thing as goodness in humanity and he rebukes that. He never tells anywhat what's right or wrong because he's not sure what's right or wrong himself. He just has faith in what he's come to believe and believes there's goodness in the world even with all the shit he's been through.
Astolfo and Jeanne are two heroes and have their own stances and beliefs and so does everyone else who comes into conflict with other heroes for their beliefs. The story is the conflict between perspectives of others. Jeanne has her reasons for opposing Amakusa and Astolfo is against someone forcing their will on others to begin with. Chiron disapproves of Amakusa trying to change the course of humanity for his own hubris. Atalanta can't forgive Jeanne's ideals allowing her to kill Jack the ripper who were victims as she once was. When they go telling people they're wrong it's not like they go oh well fuck guess i better stop doing what I'm doing now otherwise you might actually have a point there.

>Apocrypha was written as a love-letter to the Fate
For me, it feels more like a mockery.
>humanity, fate, desire, and sacrifice
These words are void. I can shoehorn them into an essay I could write about any entry of the series, either about the VN, Zero or even Extra if I try hard enough. I am not going to, obviously but if I had to I would manage.
>Sieg is a tool of fate trying desperately to justify his own existence by throwing himself into conflict after conflict out of feelings he's obligated to in order to make Siegfried's sacrifice worth something and find value in his own life even if it's through death.
*Cough*
Shirou is a tool of fate trying desperately to justify his own existence by throwing himself into conflict after conflict out of feelings he's obligated to in order to make Kiritsugu's sacrifice Fukyki's inhabitants' death worth something and find value in his own life even if it's through death.
Shirou and Kiritsugu both deem themselves worthless for different, in my opinion, better reasons.
As I said, it was an unnecessary story reiterating points already talked about ad nauseam. You might argue that it was still a valid entry due to the debate about free will but sadly Extra already did that in the last part of its epilogue.
My point stands still, it would be better as a lighter point of the franchise more focused on the fight rather than cheap philosophy, especially because of huge cast of characters. Most of them were shafted badly because Apo had to be pompous and important.

Sorry, not someone who automatically accepts in-universe explanations for everything.
Viewed rationally Sieg, Astolfo and Jeanne come across as extremely vapid

Explain. Because, to me, it just seems like you're just demonizing them for your own skewed narrative rather than actually looking at what the story was going for. I wouldn't exactly call that rational.

>Apocrypha was written as a love-letter to the Fate
>For me, it feels more like a mockery.
That's a bit...extreme. I get you like FSN and Zero alot but to say Apocrypha was a mockery to it with how much work was devoted into it both by the original author who oversaw it's creation and apocrypha's own author is a tad harsh.
>humanity, fate, desire, and sacrifice
These words are void. I can shoehorn them....
I bring those points up because they're all adressed through various characters and the arcs surrounding them and they're all tied together. I could weave them into an essay about Apocrypha and the relevance of them through the story if I wanted to as well but I honestly don't have the time or energy for that at the moment. I bring them up because their easy words and concepts to grasp and the focus on them in comparision to other works made it APO distinct to me.
>*Cough*
Shirou is a tool of fate trying desperately to justify...
Why yes. The character meant in reference to the other would hit the same beats. The situations are similar, but the context is entirely different. Shirou is actively trying to fulfill Kiritsugu's dream that was left behind and his guilt over the fire, events of the past he had no control over. Sieg's obligations are entirely of his own making, abandoning his comrades and his escaping leading to the events that led to Siegfried sacrificing himself chosing to save rider resulting in over half of his brethren dying by the time he got to them. While Shirou's story deals more on how the inherited ideal interacts with the reality of his circumstances, Sieg's journey is a search for identity and worth. Just because they share similar story beats don't make them a 1:1 copy of one another. They're distinctly different characters though Shirou is handled better due to the benefit of having three different stories and perspectives to look at him from where Sieg only has 1.

>Shirou and Kiritsugu both deem...
Well, there reasons while extreme are pretty human situations and resonate with readers better so I can understand the viewpoint at least. Sieg's is far more alien and harder for most people to really relate to. I personally feel all their reasons and feelings are valid.
>As I said, it was an unnecessary story reiterating....
FSN's focus was for the most part Shirou's character study, Apocrypha's points have a more universal message. Is it objectively better or worse? Well, it's a matter of one's own opinion but the point is it's not definitely the same nor does it regurgitate what FSN has already covered. That said, Extra doesn't handle the free will argument with nearly the nuance that Apocrypha bothers to. Apocrypha raises questions about whether Amakusa is right or wrong and never outright villifies his goal in of itself even if the protags come to oppose him, Extra just makes a statement that no this guy is 100% wrong and crazy and has to be defeated. Just because it did it first doesn't meant it was done better. Twice was horribly implemented villain and his free-will debacle came way too out of left field to be taken even remotely seriously.
>My point stands still, it would be better as a lighter point of the franchise more focused on the fight rather than cheap philosophy, especially because of huge cast of characters. Most of them were shafted badly because Apo had to be pompous and important.
I don't know what to tell you. It told the story it wanted to tell. It wasn't trying to be pompous or important. It brought up a simple message of good, evil, and navigating the space between as well as the importance of people finding the things they want. Because the writer felt that message was more worth writing about and it's obvious reading his interviews that came from a sincere place rather than one of self-importance.

shit sorry user i gotta get ready for work in a bit so i'll have to dip on this conversation for now. i get off early though so if this thread is still up by the time i'm off i'll reply. take care for now.

Same as that user I am already phoneposting and as an ESL I really dislike this. In case this thread dies, take care. I disagree with you on a fundimental level but that does not mean I can't appreciate a civil discussion.

And Mordred and Sis.

What you just described is a good protagonist, though.

The best part of the anime was making ASCA's career.

He was a 15 years old rebel leader and catholic martyr considered an apocryphal saint until someone in Japan campaigns for him (but would shit on the crimes their goverment did against him and Christians so they won't) usually called the "Japanese Jeanne D'Arc".

Semi was a cougar.

Mordred and Sieg would have worked unironically better because they have common background as the rebellious homunculus associated as the villains (Sieg IS the latest Fafnir) of the person they idealize (Arthur/Siegfried). Sieg and Jeanne had nothing in common.

Sieg x Jeanne ruined everything.

>Also how is it even possible for Jeanne to delete servants from the Throne of Heroes?
Jack isn't on the throne, she's a wraith.

who’s dat

>Assumes apoc isn't canon because Jeannu shows up in Extella/Link and FGO and so does Jack
>FGO Has an event confirming that apoc is indeed "canon"
What the fuck Higashide/Nasu

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I suggest watching First Order to have an idea of what's happening and Initium Itier (Babylonia episode 0) to get a better grasp of the main characters.

Sang ending 2 and now does a bunch of other aniplex anime.

Astolfo should have won the Siegbowl.

I like how Siegfried became the butt of so many jokes in FGO. His appearances in Halloween 2 and All the Statesmen were the best.

The soundtrack for Apocrypha was pretty good.

Astolfo was the only redeeming character in that show because he's so pure hearted, trapfags fuck off

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>has no real skills
>has no real power
>still manages to win the HGW because of selflessness and being relentless

Even if Jeanne leaves the Throne to chase after dragon dick, it'll "only" be that particular Jeanne. So basically, any other Jeanne that gets summoned won't have feelings for Sieg because the Jeanne that loves Sieg is already gone.

Jack was never in the Throne. There are several Servants we see across the franchise that aren't actual Heroic Spirits. Among them are the Hassans, Sasaki Kojiro and Jack the Ripper. Those are all wraiths. Many of the Servants in Fate/strange fake aren't Heroic Spirits either.

>So basically, any other Jeanne that gets summoned won't have feelings for Sieg because the Jeanne that loves Sieg is already gone.
She still has feelings for Sieg in FGO though.

She doesn't. Or at least, not explicitly. She never really says anything about him other than, "Oh, did Sieg-kun get in trouble again?" Even the Sieg that gets summoned into Chaldea isn't treated quite the same as the original, as his memories of her are rather vague. Sieg himself says that Jeanne's probably in the same boat.

Iskandar was powered up by 3 command spellss and he still got 1 shot by Gil.

Still a better MC than Shirou.