The great debate

The great debate

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Penguindrum is better.
>faster pacing
>more symbolisms and social criticisim
>more focused storyline
Utena only wins in terms of characters, and the characters on Penguindrum are still decent.

There is no debate. Utena is superior in every conceivable way. Every new Ikuhara anime got progressively worse after it.

Penguindrum is more ambitious but messier. Utena is tighter and more satisfying.

I haven't watched them, but I watched Sarazanmai last season and it was a big pile of literal nothing with nice visuals.
Not bothering to check longer shows made by Ikuhara unless my goal is wasting time.

Utena. Zetsuen no Tempest does Penguindrum better than Penguindrum itself.

By the way I was reading an argument 2 MAL users had and I got to a part where he started mentioning philosophy, nihilism, liber mundi and all that and it made me wonder if every Ikuhara fanboy defends his works in such a pretentious way?

Because Ikuhara works are pretentious.

Utena is literally flawless and probably the greatest animu of all time.
Penguindrum is great but it has a lot of flaws, most notably the weird shift in tone from first half being this weird Ringo-centred comedy to a more serious show.

>Zetsuen no Tempest does Penguindrum better than Penguindrum itself.
I hope you mean the manga, m8, the anime was a massive waste of potential.

No they are not. Mawaru Penguindrum maintains a light-hearted tone and very humane feel throughout it’s entire duration, and the allegoric and abstract scenes (while maybe too artistic and open to interpretation) aren’t really pretentious. Ikuhara presents his show as simple rule of cool with fancy visuals and it isn’t until you think about them in a deeper level that you realize it’s greatness. A pretentious show doesn’t have any deep or mature content and tries to present itself as it does have it, and since Ikuhara does the opposite; this makes me believe his shows are actually the antithesis of pretentiousness.

At least until Penguindrum, I haven’t seen his newer content.

I'm not so pretentious as to use every single misguided post as an excuse to be a gatekeeper or anything like that, but if you're going to not understand a show, at least don't compare it to a Bones show. Don't steal someone or something's dignity so absentmindedly.

Bump

Bump again!

Maybe it's not that great as a debate

Yeah I think you’re right. I thought it was “catchy” to say it’s the great debate.

>A pretentious show doesn’t have any deep or mature content and tries to present itself as it does have it, and since Ikuhara does the opposite; this makes me believe his shows are actually the antithesis of pretentiousness.

I was just about to make a whole thread with this exact topic before this one showed up. Ikuhara's shows are great like this.

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Is it one? I like both.

What did you mean by this

Haven't seen Yurikuma but Sarazanmai was pretty straightforward.

Here is a better debate:

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penguindrum just doesn't have as rock solid production or as interesting characters. Penguindrum's themes are more interesting to me, but explored less thoroughly than Utena's. I also enjoy the humor more in Utena, and again, the animation is much more consistent.

I already did a similar thread yesterday (comparing Madoka, Full Moon, Princess Tutu and Utena) but it got full of Madokautists and ruined the thread.

>but it got full of Madokautists and ruined the thread.
Why am I not surprised. These faggots should be quarantined into their own threads and never let out. And why even compare trash like Madoka to the other shows? Seems like to odd one out.

I hate comparisons between these two shows, it doesn't make sense to me. Compare Tutu and Doremi, or Utena and The Rose of Versailles, closer to each other thematically.

>debate
Utena is a masterpiece, Penguindrum is just a decent show.

>Utena and The Rose of Versailles
What does a show about a bunch of gays, have in common with a show about the french revolution?

>And why even compare trash like Madoka to the other shows?
I don’t know, I thought it would be fun to see what’s Yea Forums‘s favorite magical girl deconstruction.
Both are a deconstruction of magical girls that use bedtime stories and fairy tales and twists them to a point where the characters take control and jump out of the story -metaphorically in Utena’s case-.

I believe it was one single user, please don't generalize. I like Madoka but there's ways to discuss things without sounding biased and obsessed.

>the city of paris was gay

Penguindrum was like a 6/10, too much repetition and the last third was a trainwreck of retarded twists and the excessively obtuse warehouse metaphor.

That one insane madokafag user made me hate Madoka more than I did before (I hated madoka only 99% before he showed up). I just see so well through Madoka's terrible writing, that it's painful to see anyone unironically claiming that it is good. It's like you can see how stupid people are when they claim that Madoka is good.

rent free

MC with gender dysphoria (if we can call it like that) figthing with swords
>The French REVOLUTION
>Utena la fillette REVOLUTIONNAIRE
Also the aesthetics

>Also the aesthetics
Then add LOGH to that bunch. Rainhard is clearly an Oscar clone.

That's fine, you're free to think whatever you want but now you don't start to be the unreasonable one. And this is off topic btw.

I hate Madoka but I’m willing to bet it’s probably the single greatest anime in the world. I’ll at least admit that.

Most of us will. You’re not special.

And the thread has gone to shit. Nice going there faggot

I hate Madoka but I’m willing to bet it’s probably a 5/10 show at best, and overrated as fuck. I’ll at least admit that.

I’m starting to see where the thread is going and I don’t like it.
I can see why you don’t like the constant use of allegories and symbolism to a point where there are scenes that are literally symbolic and never happened (see when Kanba share an apple and they are in two cells). Mawaru Penguindrum is the most Ikuhara show he has ever made if that makes any sense. If you love his style to death, you’ll probably love Penguindrum to death, but if you don’t; you may dislike it. Very polarizing show, really.

Try watching it?

Most of us will. You’re not special.

And once again, Puella Mashit Madocuck Magifag ruins another thread thanks to the madoschizos...

Definitely Utena, Princess Tutu is pretty close though

Does Utena actually have gender dysphoria, sure she wore a male uniform but that's about it

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I love love love both of these but let's be honest there is no contest. Utena is a once in a lifetime sort of show. While I consider Penguindrum a modern classic Utena is one of the best anime ever made. Both shows have flaws but the flaws in Utena don't significantly impact my enjoyment of it. Penguindrum has amazing music, art, and theming but the plot goes crazy in the second half and you can tell a lot of stuff had to be axed, changed, or moved around due to the production issues it experienced. Utena is consistent at targeting exactly what it wanted to say and it did so perfectly. Utena is also probably the most rewatchable anime I've seen, there's stuff you would never catch the first time or even the second.

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Nigger, you don't know shit about anime.

Kill yourself or fucking educate your retarded ass because I don't think you should be allowed to breed. You're so subhumanly stupid.

Do you like Ikuhara’s other works?

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I personally like Madoka more than anything in this thread but I guess Utena would be second in my opinion.

Utena was a fluke

They're good but not on the same level of Utena and Penguindrum to me. Yurikuma and Sarazanmai were entertaining but I just didn't feel the same pull to dive into them like MPD and Utena. YKA in particular I'm sure I didn't fully understand but I don't have a strong urge to rewatch it. Maybe in a couple years I'll return to it. I'm watching Sailor Moon now purely for the Ikuhara episodes.

I'm surprised by how much I hated Sarazanmai. Both Penguindrum and Yurikuma were massive downgrades from Utena, but I still loved them, despite all their flaws. Sarazanmai on the other hand, I utterly despised it.

I'd put Sarazanmai and Yuri kuma on the same level, Penguindrum is superior to both but not even close to Utena's level.