Should shirou abandon his ideals?

Yes, it would probably make him less boring.

Fate Shirou and Saber abandoned the most retarded aspects of their ideals and got the best ends.

Losing his autism makes him boring as fuck so no.

ccccczech'd

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add one for miyuverse shirou

Anyone that actually read FSN novel and isn't deluded as fuck will realize by the third route that the ideals are broken as fuck, and can only lead him on a one way path towards an early death without meaning.

Just like Kiritsugu he'll always end up compromising his ideal more and more along the way, until he killed more than if he had done nothing all along, in the pursuit of JUSTICE. Because its a meaningless but good sounding word it can be used to allow any form of evil or violence you need to carry out, in the greater good.

His idea is save everyone, this ideal is impossible as HF says
The second he comes across a path where either way he has to sacrifice something, he either is forced to lie to himself forever, or give up on the ideal and not become a cynical murder machine that ends up killing millions.

Some retards also think that MoS is him upholding his ideals, when its the complete denial of them. His ideal was not kill the few for the many, the second he goes down that route its dead. Ilya flat out told him when he chose that path that he's just going to be lying to himself forever. He kills everyone for the sake of an empty ideal, where there is no end path anymore, and nothing is saved. That's exactly what the ideals get you. As Archer says, if you choose to protect ideals over people, then all you end up saving in the end is ideals. Even if the ideal is saving people, if you keep the ideal over the people themselves then you failed. Shirou is a failure most of the time, he's just mindlessly helping people in a way that doesn't actually help them, like giving away free money. Giving away free money to people that don't have any value towards it just means they piss it away instantly, and its gone the next day. In fact it might actually fuck them up worse in the process, like people that win the lottery.

Someone explain it to me if I'm wrong, but after UBW, does Shirou basically end up like Archer, but without becoming a Guardian?

>turacu on
>brainu off
my sides

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It's implied that Rin keeps him from succumbing to despair and making a contract with the world.

That being said his mission is still hopeless with his only reward being a noose.

That nigga should go to therapy

he did but the therapist ended up agreeing with his autism

I like your post user. Have this (You) from me since nobody else will do it.

If it makes him happy and feel fulfilled, absolutely not.

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God I hate this faggot's face just look at how gross and annoying he looks.

If you were a good friend to shirou, woul he agree to you going with him across the world?

He needs a better therapist, like a certain autistic nurse.

Only to get with best girl.

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Look buddy, I'm a diehard Rinfag, but even I see that Saber is the best girl for Shirou as a person. They're literally made for each other in every way.

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They're very similar characters.

saber is 35 and shirou is 17
this is pedophilia

I think Rin fits him better. He knows how to deal with tsunderes, which is basically being blunt and straight forward with them. Also, in every route he admits being attracted to her, and she has a slight crush on him too. There's also the fact that they both seem to enjoy teasing each other.

You're either a falseflagger or a ridiculous cuck. Shirou and Saber have lots of literary parallels, but that doesn't mean their romance is any good.

nightingale would likely end up killing him though

no

based argument master

I thought she was 25

Well if it stops his autism, that should count

she is 25 + however many months she was in fate zero. she pulled out the sword at age 15 and then ruled for 10 years

Rin never once says "I love you" to Shirou.
Think about that.

They call me master debater

>implying he won't become a counter guardian afterwards

Nakama?
HAHA no thanks. Just get in my way. The more you're attached to people the weaker a human you become.
RISOU??! HAHAHAHA That's a riot kid. Ideals are for the truly weakest and most pathetic in society, they cling to their FALSE meanings like idols for worship. Me? I've got no ideal. That means I'm free. See? Convinient.
SEIGI NO MIKATA???!!!
KISAMA THERES NO SUCH THING
*vanishes
*appears behind you summoning ancient chinese dualswords
I'll show you where your ideals will lead
*creates a world of death and destruction from my own imagination filled with cursed and holy swords
I AM the bone of my SWORD

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Absolutely based literary analysis chad user.

Yes they are.

It's perfectly OK under the laws of Japan.

>but that doesn't mean their romance is any good
Fair point, but the thematic connections and everything else makes it a stronger pairing in my mind than Shirou and Rin or Shirou and Sakura.

>He knows how to deal with tsunderes, which is basically being blunt and straight forward with them. Also, in every route he admits being attracted to her, and she has a slight crush on him too. There's also the fact that they both seem to enjoy teasing each other.
I cannot dispute this, but I will point out that is a big fucking flag against it. Even Sakura says "I love you" to Shirou. Saber going "I love you" to Shirou right before she fades away is the pinnacle of Fate route.

What I find funny though is that in HF, Sakura's "I love you" is "Shirou no tsuki da."
In Fate route's ending, Saber's "I love you" is "aishiteiru", which is the more serious and intense one. I think this decides it.

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I think it's a fine ideal to be so retardedly nice guy that you just want to throw away your life like a suicide bomber even if you accomplish nothing
I mean is better than just doing nothing

Ain't that just the same as HF Shirou but retardly powerful?

I actually know this, most fateshitters don't understand something so basic from an eroge author.
The point is he's a sad suicidal faggot who just wants to feel better about being allowed to live over other guys, like its life was meant to be more valuable than the others.
He should value his life more because of this but that would be boring, watching a mc so stupid and fixated on being like this was fun

In fact, in the end of heaven's feel. Thanks to Sakura and Illya saving him, he finally straight up says he wants to live. The end of the story was literally him wanting to live. If you don't cling to your wish to live enough you get the depressing normal end with a mindbroken sakura still waiting for him. If you do, illya saves you and you get the true ending

By the way sorry for the shitty punctuation, I am tired. I just really liked your post.
Also in who is the best for shirou I'd say sakura or saber. Sakura and Shirou while in the short term they help but also hurt each other, after the end its probably the best relationship out of the three. Saber is the opposite, they only help each other through the story but in the end they are destined to be separated until avalon (an ending which nasu didn't even want to write).
I don't really see Rin and Shirou as a couple, they fit more as a bromance, also their romance is pretty meh compared to the other two

kys autist

>Fair point, but the thematic connections and everything else makes it a stronger pairing in my mind than Shirou and Rin or Shirou and Sakura.
Shirou x Sakura has no shortage of powerful thematic connections. They're both shaped by traumatic experiences early in life, and in each other they find a happiness they don't think they deserve. In their houses, they each have a "public" room (bedroom) and a "private" room (magic training room) that respectively embody what's outside and what's inside. And it's no coincidence that, when Shirou is dreaming of becoming like Kiritsugu, Sakura is the one to wake him up from that dream. In thematic terms, Saber is the girl that embodies Shirou's ideals, and Sakura is the girl who's incompatible with Shirou's ideals. Saber is the ideal, Sakura is the human. Loving Saber means letting her go, loving Sakura means holding her tight and never letting her go.

>What I find funny though is that in HF, Sakura's "I love you" is "Shirou no tsuki da."
>In Fate route's ending, Saber's "I love you" is "aishiteiru", which is the more serious and intense one. I think this decides it.
"Suki" and "aishiteiru" both mean "love." If we're looking for symbolism, note that Heaven's Feel is the only route in which Shirou smiles onscreen.

Based and seibapilled

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Absolutely not. Shirou is meant to become a true hero.

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Shirou abandons his ideals for which of the girls? Sakura outright, Saber dissuades him, Rin...?

They're the only thing interesting about his character so no.

Saber doesn't dissuade him, what are you talking about?

Miyu Shirou willingly choose to let the world burn.
HF Shirou save the world as a bonus.

[ ] I want to save Sakura no matter what
[x] Persist on being a superhero.

Shirou doesn't believe you can save everyone. He can't believe that. It's something he knew since the fire. Even though Kiritsugu was able to save him, he wasn't able to save literally anyone else.

The reason Shirou wants to save everyone is because he finds the ideal itself beautiful. Of fucking course it's impossible, but what he finds value in is simply the act of trying to do so. Because that in itself is beautiful. The ultimate goal of Shirou, if you can call it that, isn't to "save everyone", because he has literally zero delusions about that. He doesn't like it, but he understands and accepts it. His only desire is to try. At the end of the day, he won't be able to save everyone. He may even have to sacrifice someone to save many more. But even if it doesn't work out this time, he still wants to try again next time.

In life, Emiya probably had more than a few opportunities to save people. I mean, not every calamity is the same, so surely there were times when he was able to reach his hand out and grant someone salvation directly. But as a Counter Guardian, those opportunities simply don't exist. A Guardian is just a janitor who cleans up after the fact. He only survives in hells where there's no one left to save, only there to kill the remaining culprits. He just kills and kills and kills. Strictly speaking, people are still saved from the result of his actions, since it prevents the calamity from spreading and ensures that it won't repeat. But from his perspective, his consciousness is an endless bloodbath where he kills over and over again ad infinitum.

Well, he did for a long time. It's why he fucked his life up and ended up as an epic hero.

Je didn't end up as a hero. He ended up as a Counter Guardian, starkly different.

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He never believed that. There's a difference between believing that you can and wanting to do so. What Shirou's doing is far more ridiculous than what you think he's doing. If he were merely delusional, then that'd be fine. He'd get struck down by reality and that would be the end of it. What Shirou is doing is believing something to be impossible but still persisting on trying to achieve it. He KNOWS he can't do it but he wants to do it anyway. That's far more fucked up than what you're suggesting.

It's not much different from Saber accepting the reigns to a doomed kingdom. She knew the kingdom was fucked from the moment she grasped the stone, but she became king and tried to get it to flourish anyway. It's basically the same deal.

No, no, he became a hero. He even said as much. "I achieved Emiya Shirou's dream and became an Ally of Justice". There's no irony. He says he achieved it.

>Heaven's Feel is the only route in which Shirou smiles onscreen.
In UBW Archer (who is SHIROU) smiles.

Reminder.

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She came here to laugh at us.

Not gonna lie, at first I felt scringe whenever Shiro talks about his dream. Like the fuck, dude? Ally of justice? Save people? Childish as fuck. It made me quite disappointed since I expect the visual novel to be better than that after reading its positive review. But when I read UBW, I realise that cringe feeling is actually the whole point. That even though the dream itself is silly, childish or even outline stupid, Shiro wont give up on that dream. And if you want sth realistic, Heaven Feel is the answer. Nasu is really genious. Shame his recent works arent that good anymore

>FateShirou refuses to accept any situation where he has to let people die
Basement scene exists, secondaries.

Pretty sure it is an ironic statement from the VN. He achieved what Shirou believed heroism to be about, but archer is convinced and so are we after reading the three routes, that Shirous vision of heroism is wrong.

That chart's fucking stupid because Shirou is the exact same in UBW and only breaks in HF because he has to choose an impossible scenario. He can't just use himself as a meat shield in HF's scenario and he finally snaps.

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That's pretty hot ngl
>Also pedophilia when Shirou isn't a prepubescent boy when Saber fucks him

this game is dumb I keep picking the right choice but I end up with a bad end.

anime board, not cringe 5th grade writing level VN board

Archer never criticized the ideal. He criticized Shirou but never the ideal. And in fact, no one truly says that wanting to save everyone is wrong except Gilgamesh. What they criticize is Shirou's lack of desire to save himself, but that's not really something that can be fixed.

How bad would things go if Shirou has BB as his kouhai?

Then I point you to the 2006 Fate Deen anime you absolute neanderthal.

>Should shirou abandon his ideals?
>I wanna save everyone, even bad people
Shirou should really honestly and truly just become a firefighter or rescue worker. He doesn't need to fight or hurt anyone in that job and it's 100% about saving everyone, even shitty people. He even has the perfect fucking backstory for it. I like to think this is what he did in the Extra timeline since honestly, why the fuck would a sword autist be in a nuclear reactor that's about to melt down.

If it wasn't for the holy grail war introducing the world of magic and bigger threats to Shirou, I am 100% certain he would have become a firefighter.
Sadly he now knows about bigger threats that he cannot ignore. If he even gets a whiff of something he thinks he can solve, he's on it like a pitbull to a baby.

In the EXTRA timeline, he becomes a resistance fighter.

The train switch problem is a bad example you can always derail the train by moving the switch halfway. Which would stop the train from running over either track. The actually breaks the entire example in that half measures are the best?

Childhood is petitioning Alaya to become a counter guardian

Adulthood is grafting your future self's arm onto you and surpassing him

Yes. You're so clever. No one has ever applied new parameters to a hypothetical to avoid examining the dilemma presented.

Let me guess, you save the patients in the "Healthy Stranger" problem with determination and vigor.

You notice I said the train switch example is bad. A proper hypothetical wouldn't leave room for such middle ground options. Like you can pick two options one way a single person dies and the other many die. Saying there is a train puts a train track into your example and is a bad example.

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The transplant problem is problematic at its very root because a transplant doctor wouldn't be doing checkups on a non-transplant person. Then in order to get the transplant compadiblity you'd have to run a whole suite of tests which makes the no one would suspect impossible. Then there is the problem that even if you did that assuming your a brillant surgeon you'd still have to do 5 surgeries at the same time which is impossible for one doctor so you'd need more doctors/nurses/teams involved.

Compared to the trolly problem where it is just a train switch the doctor transplant example has far more practical problems. The main point is hypothetical ethics questions should be entirely hypothetical with no realistic elements or you'll run into problems like this. Just say pick A or B and A kills 1 and B kills 5 which option do you pick.

A "Proper" Hypothetical does not need to be water tight. The point of a hypothetical is not to explore the ways it deviates from reality.

There is a train that runs down one of two tracks. You can switch the track the train runs down. It is currently running down a track with five people tied to it. On the alternate track, there is one person tied down. Do you pull the switch to change the track the train will run down?

This is the extent of the world. There is nothing else. It is a model that does not permit alternate outcomes (because alternate outcomes are not useful for the thought experiment).

In the "healthy stranger", Five patients WILL die overnight without organ transplants. You can successfully save all of them if you had organs. You can trivially kill the healthy stranger during his checkup, and his organs are all matching, healthy and extract perfectly. If you kill the stranger, the patients WILL live. If you don't, they WILL die. You will not make a mistake. There will be no rejection. The stranger does not have an angry spouse who will come seeking revenge. You will not get caught, tried or convicted for it.

The point of a hypothetical is to remove all external forces from a scenario so you can examine the decision within.

Perhaps, most importantly: A hypothetical is not actually an example. It's never meant to model a real world scenario. Your knowledge of the real world has no bearing on it, and it includes no elements that change the truths of the thought experiment.

Image always makes me smile, thanks user

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For pussy? Always.

If you put real world elements into it then people have room to take liberties. If the situation is fictional then it doesn't need real world elements.

But even if he doesnt he gets pussy either way

You've now missed the purpose of the Trolley problem AND the healthy stranger side by side.

The point is the contrast: The uninitiated will declare that the doctor in the Healthy Stranger is a murderer, while the switchman in the Trolley Problem is a tragic hero.

You can't get people to examine their ethical and moral biases if your question is

>Find the difference between:

>*A: Kill 5 people through inaction, don't feel responsible; B: Kill one person, feel responsible.

And

>A: Kill one person, Feel responsible; B: Kill 5 people through inaction, don't feel responsible

A hypothetical doesn't need to be water tight but if it isn't then clever people will take third options.

Train switchs have three positions that is the problem you have. The absence of a prohibition for simplity sake leaves wiggle room. Hypotheticals don't come with the blanket you can't think out of the box plenty of hypothetical problems have non-obvious solutions involving non-linear thinking.

The fact that outcomes are not useful is meaningless and is the root problem. Just because you think you have a good example doesn't make it so. The fact you can invert the ethical problem is problematic. Sticking your head in the sand isn't a valid solution.

You have to specify all conditions in a hypothetical or people will find holes. Even if you won't make a mistake in the hypothetical doctor transplant a proper doctor would point out that it is impossible to transplant 5 patients at once unless your some alien at which point it becomes a fantastical aseop.

A proper hypothetical does removal all external forces which is why saying pick options A or B to kill one or five remvoes all external forces so you can focus on the decision within. Trying to gussy it up is just retarded.

You really missing the point. You notice your A/B examples work better being water tight ethics questions that leave no room for creative interpertation.

No, let us enjoy his beautiful struggle.

That is also very incorrect you have an entire range of responses to that is an impossible situtation and is a fantastical example to turn the switch to the middle position and win. Or in the A/B case you could get responses that all options are murder and the question is a false choice. And everything in between.

When you have the simplifed A/B question people can say its a false choice but the responses will be much cleaner and useful for study.

>clever people
You mean smartasses. Still, you should always watch out for smartasses because these kinds of discussions are often turn into a conflict of egos. Either the one to present the problem gets his point across or the smartass who finds an alternative solution gets the satisfaction of outwitting the presenter. The presenter has everything to gain from making the conundrum as airtight as possible, because the only benefit either side receives from participating is e-peen.

Hell yes. His ideals are only "beautiful" in theory, they're ugly as shit in practice.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Real world examples are going to run into problems and if you make it unrealistic then people have an easy out saying that is impossible because it is. Those are the correct responses. If you leave it direct needs of the many over the needs of the few you can get a direct answer without a stupid run around.

You're a moron.

There is no point in offering the Trolley Problem and the Healthy Stranger as a set unless the conclusion that they're identical ethical quandaries is arrived at critically.

Presenting them as logic arguments literally doesn't teach the lesson they're intended for.

We can't continue any meaningful discussion until you understand that: The entire purpose of these questions is to examine how changing variables in a hypothetical scenario changes our responses: Like changing one of the victims to dogs and tearing apart a peace love dope co-ed for valuing aesthetics over ethics, or seeing how a die-hard Catholic responds when the solo victim demands his sacrifice for the other track.

It literally defeats the meaning of ethical dilemmas as a whole.

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He should have taken Seihai-kun's advice and just killed 1,000,000 people to become a hero. Archer did it, he can too.

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I want to ask would post UBW shirou choose to save sakura or kill her since pre HF shirou is still a suicidal faggot.

How is the direct question of do you sacriface one to save many a pointless question. That is the ethical dilemma the window dressing just is checking on other questions at the same time which is a bad idea.

The variations are not ethical dilemmas they are useless as your introducing too many variables at once. A proper study would ask things like the value of dogs vs humans, etc.. directly.

This is a pretty fucking stupid comparison
Like this dude said, basement scene exists, which the whole point is about shirou coming to terms with his survivors guilt and moving on, also people forget that he was willing to do the same fucking shit for saber that he does for sakura, abandoning everyone else for his loved one, he doesnt because saber would hate him for it, and ultimatly goes with his ideals and shit for her, even if it costs them being apart

Just look at Kiritsugu. Or Archer. Or notice the fact that the VN never specifies what kind of stuff he's actually doing post-Fate/UBW. That's an important sleight of hand, done specifically to let you think he's doing something "beautiful" and keep him more likable than he would be otherwise. But what the hell can one sword autist do against the big problems of the world? Go to a war zone and pick the side that seems to be in the right? He'll be nothing more than a mercenary.

What he really needs to do is scale his ambitions back, protect the people close to him, and lead a long, happy life as his reward.

That OVA was a fun time

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The Fate route example isn't even accurate. The only time he got in front of the metaphorical trolley was at the beginning when Saber was about to be killed by Berserker. In that scenario, there wasn't even a lever he could pull. In that split second, Shirou decided that Saber was worth risking his life for and pushed her out of the way. He also nearly killed Shinji.

It's not a study. We're not determining the value of dogs and humans. We're not even determining the value of dogs and humans to subjects.

We are asking a question with a strict logical answer and seeing how our human brain biases it.

The trolley problem and the healthy stranger are the same problem dressed differently to establish consistency: Either you accept responsibility for an improved outcome (Be it hero, or murderer) or you deny it, accepting the worse outcome because being the hero isn't worth being the murderer..

This isn't a debate: This is the definition of a moral or ethical dilemma. If you dislike it, then do the word problem, chart it down to the logic and solve it with formal logic. It's an entirely acceptable and clinical solution.

But you cannot avoid starting with the flavor and fluff inherent to the dilemma, because the entire field of Ethics is based on examining that flavor and fluff. If it wasn't examining it. It would be Formal Logic.

I will say no more. If you do not accept this premise, we cannot move forward with meaningful discussion.

He's not a mercenary because he doesn't ask for reward, which was one of the issues people had with him. Emiya just went to where he was most needed and performed actions that would save the largest number of people.

And Shirou can't really do that under normal circumstances. People keep trying to force their normie viewpoints onto Shirou and demand he adheres to them but Shirou is the furthest fucking thing from a normie. So when Shirou acts in a decidedly non-normie way, idiots REEEE because he's not normie enough for them.

That's you. You're REEEEEing because you're too much of a normie.

A sheath belongs to its sword

So you're saying she should peg him?

If your trying to study something you change one variable you say is 1 dog worth more than 5 people. Leaving the train switch is a bad idea because people will say things like the dog will survive even if you say it won't as it is smaller than the rail spacing in their country. You bring context into the situation which would lead to abnormal responses.

What your actually asking is.
A) x dogs vs. y people
B) is murdering someone ok (your not making much sense there)
C) the last situation is impossible as determining if someone is die hard religious is actually impossible to determine as we cannot yet peer into peoples minds with any certainty.

Yeah, the original one is hotter, after all.

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No. It's not what I'm asking. You are currently incapable of understanding.

This conversation will not continue.

He does the shit mercenaries do, but for free. So, the same as a mercenary, but less practical, because how the hell is he gonna fund all his adventures?

And what I described is exactly what HF Shirou does. What, is HF Shirou too normie for you?

If your not studying it then any answer is fine and anything goes. You don't care about data quality or what anything means so there is no problem with answers like the train just gets stuck in the middle. The doctor kills the youth and four patients because it is impossible to operate on five at once. So on and so forth. There is nothing forcing the responder to accept anything or answer in any way that you expect. To me the trolly problem is flawed and the same with the healthy stranger. To others they will say they are not a doctor or a train switch operator and would never have to deal with such a situation and just don't want to think about it. Some would pick the kill em all option even if it doesn't exist.

You have no obligation to pick a defined answer to a ethical dilemma just like a logical paradox you can solve it by being too stupid or just ignoring it. Logic doesn't deal with things like do the needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few or is a dog worth as much as a human life these are not logical questions but ethical ones so I don't know where your going.

You also misunderstand that just because you say something doesn't make it true. The examples could be flawed, premised flawed, a non-debate is a debate, and so on and so forth.

>this thread
you faggots don't actually think Fate is deep or something, right? This is just a meme, right?

HF True Shirou is an emulation of a normie. He didn't actually scale back anything. He forcibly ripped his own psyche apart in order to protect one person. The Shirou who survived in the end is now someone who lives exclusively for Sakura's sake. He's unable to pursue the path he walked before because of his twisted internal logic prohibiting him from doing so.

No but he should be realistic them and ideally but not completely suicidal.

No I'm just having fun derailing this thread. The trolly problem has gone off the rails.

The suicidal part is a separate issue from his ideal, something that people keep forgetting. He lost his ability to prioritize himself as a result of the trauma from the fire. He "died" in that fire. It broke him. He literally can never prioritize himself ever again after that.

He scaled back his ambitions from "save everyone," which is impossible, to "save Sakura," which is possible and which he actually achieved.

And he's not living only for Sakura's sake. In the cherry blossom promise scene, he thinks about his own happiness for the first time in ten years, and when he kills Saber Alter, he promises her that he'll take responsibility and search for happiness.

He didn't "scale them back". He literally had to break himself to function that way. He's unable to become an ally of justice now. He's like a machine who induced a logic error into himself.

True, but also trivial: That breakdown put him into a reasonable relationship with his ideals.

A major point of HF is that being an Ally of Justice, to the denial of your own humanity is a bad thing.

You moron, how the fuck is it reasonable to be willing to play dice with all of humanity for one girl? If anything, he's arguably more extreme than the rest. He became a machine, not for protecting people, but for protecting a single girl. Things ended up working out but there are so many ways he could have failed. It was the equivalent of saying "Yeah, literally everyone might die, but that's a risk I'm willing to take." And the worst part is that it's not even like he stopped caring about people; every single person dies will weigh on his conscience forever. But he's still willing to carry that burden just to protect Sakura. If hypothetically, everyone in Fuyuki died but Sakura alone still survived before he managed to save her, that would still be an acceptable outcome for him. You call that "reasonable"? He simply shifted the target of his distortion from 7 billion people to 1.

There are flaws with these interpretations, mainly the Fate and UBW route. Really, it's the idea that he has multiple ideals/mindsets. He has the same views starting out but change toward the end.

>Fate route
He changes this toward the end when he is confronted with the main cause of his survivor's guilt: the orphans/living-corpses at the church where he says "no I'm going to continue on without trying to prevent you from having died/suffered for 10 years by using the holy grail currently being offered to me by this asshole priest". He was given a choice to save them by erasing the life that he had lived which required wishing with the grail. It's actually the same exact dilemma that Saber has, Shirou was given a choice, as Saber was, to use the grail to change the course of history. This directly contradicts what the trolley-chart has written about the Fate route.

>UBW
This is accurate to where he ENDS UP in the UBW route after all the fighting with himself, whereas the the Fate interpretation is about where he started his ethical journey. I think the creator of this image has a stiffy for the UBW route in particular. It's portrayed as being the most sensible, but the end of UBW and Fate are essentially the same: the path of redemption and justification of living despite his survivor's guilt and foolish ideals for sure being his demise. In Fate, Saber is who shows Shirou by example of what that sort of self-destructive altruism will do to you. In UBW, it's the inevitable future that awaits him should he cling to those ideals, shown to him directly via Archer.

Whoever made this is a faggot.

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only if it means illya is protected

Are you that strong? Would you save humanity if it meant tearing every last thing you hold dear from you?

Please; You're not the red man. Heaven's Feel presents a human goal: To save what you love, something that is in front of you and tangible. It's a sustainable heroism; to save one person. If every person on the planet held that same goal; we would live in paradise.

Besides, where the hell do you get off? Men and Woman have died for your happiness already, and I'm not talking about soldiers. At least Shirou acknowledges it and respects their losses for his future.

Wow, you're a colossal faggot. Would you be able to sacrifice hundreds, thousands of people for one person? If all of humanity went extinct because you wanted to protect a single person, would you be okay with that? Because most people can't deal with having that guilt on their head.

Also fuck off, you self-righteous faggot.

>this thread
every time

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(cont'd)
In both Fate and UBW Shirou finds a way to mitigate the self-destruction. In Fate it's via the impact of having seen it happen to the girl (probably the only girl) he ever loved and knowing that it is a lonely way to go and to be. In UBW it's the same exact thing, but with himself.

KEEP IN MIND:
Fate/Stay Night was originally going to be two games: Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Other Night. FON would have been HF and Illya's route, but due to time constraints Nasu combined both routes of FON into what became the HF (hence why it's the longest, and most Illya centrist). It makes sense that Fate and UBW would have the same messages despite being two routes. They came from the same game: FSN

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Gladly. I am no hero. Your charge of righteousness is meaningless: I have no shame for mine and my.

Which is ironic of course, because I will shoulder more of the world than you ever could, because I pick it up in pieces, one person at a time.

How can you pretend you can save the world if you can't save the person in front of you?

>reddit posting this hard

>unironically advocating for utilitarianism
>calling anyone else reddit

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This is dome cringe posting

Incapable of attacking my content, you attack my character. What made you think that would work? I am shameless.

Pretend to be better men to strangers if it helps you sleep at night.

Is it out already?

I would never. I wouldn't pull the lever for my life. Not even if the one guy started begging me. I'm a different user than the dude you are debating.

Yes

You're drunk go to bed.

If I was drunk, I'd be arguing the futility of axiology itself. Small blessing: I am sober and tired, so you won't need to concern yourself with your own private Diogenes much longer.

Okay.

Sorry user, but that post is literally cringey as fuck, like, its said by what appears to be someone that never had to choose between his life or someone elses, and written as if he thinks hes a generic shounen MC

kek

I'm not that dude either, I'm just saying he might be embarrassing but at least he's living his life correctly

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HF shirou is really badly written. For one he sacrifices whole humanity and Taiga for Sakura. Secondly, he never reflects on this fact.

I wish I could kill every HFnigger for ruining Fate and taking a shit on the last two routes worth of character building. The third route is like fucking fanfiction that some subhumans act smug over, just like pigs that roll in their own shit

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I don't know what we're talking about I'm buzzed, high, and tired. Wanna fuck?

Drown in your ideals and die

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>HFnigger for ruining Fate
You are misdirecting your hatred. It goes to ZEROniggers and Umushitters

>taking a shit on the last two routes worth of character building
It was intended too. Read the bottom of this post under KEEP IN MIND

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*It wasn't intended to

Who are you to judge this man? Let him act as he chooses. Personally though I've had an obsession with the save-everyone mentality since I grew up watching Trigun so I'm fully supportive of his ideals.

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You live unburdened with the weight of your living. It's an easier way to be fair; not to take score.

The irony of course being that my job IS to put my life before others; And I fulfill that mandate by acknowledging those I can reach and protect, rather than pretending I offer some meaningless duty to those outside of my reach.

If that draws a visceral response from you: Good. You don't owe me a damn thing, and I'd rather your scorn than your pity.

And no; I'm not LEO or Mil; Some people are meatshields without perks. The meaningful difference is that I'm not bound by lawyers and actuaries to let you die. Still don't want your thanks: Like I said, I'm doing it for me and mine.

Can someone decipher this post? I have no idea what the fuck he's on about.

I take one look at his reddit spacing and just ignore it. I have no idea what he's prattling on about.

>excellent cook
>excellent housecare
>handyman expertise
>willing to save everyone
>swords
A girl this best would have broken the fabric of reality

damn... what could have been...

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Female Shirou is basically the perfect woman, it's insanely interesting to me that the protagonist would make a better heroine if you flipped the genders than any of the three actual heroines.

I want female Shirou to save me and cook me a good meal.

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He never sacrifices all of humanity for Sakura, and he does reflect on his actions. (See especially his reflections after he kills Saber Alter.) kys tertiary

What the fuck is Kotomine doing there?

When did Prisma Illya became Shirou?
At least she never spammed swords.

How does it feel to have your precious ideals cucked by Sakura? C'mon, I want to taste your salt.

He's not a cop or a soldier and he believes based on his personal experiences in his job that HF Shirou is right because his ideal is childish. It's better to save what's in front of you than some vague "everyone." The way he writes is obnoxious as fuck.

finding peace

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Thinking about mapo tofu.

Ah, so he really is just an idiot then, cool. Thanks for taking the time to translate, user.

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Sure.

He's ruining what would be a wonderful image.

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>implying

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Yes
Fuck that capeshit bullshit

>ywn impregnate and then NTR FemShirou

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There's isn't a route where he ever does.
In Fate he's a hero to everyone doing the impossible.
In UBW he's a hero to everyone within his own limits.
In HF he's a hero only to his loved ones.

>NTR
Kill yourself.

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I just want to be inside her lads. I want to kiss her while holding her body close to mine while I lovingly cum inside her slender warm body. Afterwards I would gently stroke her hair and remind her that she is here in a safe place where she can be at ease and be happy.

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No real girl could ever be this fucking hot and perfect.

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heavens feel is just a worse done rehash of the far side routes in tsukihime and is at odds with the tone the first two routes in fsn

KEEP IN MIND:
Fate/Stay Night was originally going to be two games: Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Other Night. FON would have been HF and Illya's route, but due to time constraints Nasu combined both routes of FON into what became the HF (hence why it's the longest, and most Illya centrist). It makes sense that Fate and UBW would have the same messages despite being two routes. They came from the same game: FSN

>why isn't this VN just the same story three times but with a different girl
Tsukihime isn't half as good as F/SN and all of HF's differences from Fate route and UBW are for the better, aside from the horniness

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Uh oh Saberfags! Your waifu is being fondled by this strange, random Japanese Highschool girl!

What DO you DO?!?!

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Fuck her

So perfect that they couldn't stop making copies.

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kohaku = mastermind behind the entire plot who only loses because she had no way of knowing that shiki has the most bullshit ability in the world or that somethign as insane as arcueid could exist

sakura = just kind of cries as dark sakura and the shadow do everything while waiting for shirou to rescue her

It isn't wrong to save anyone, fuck sakura though.

Exactly! God I want to make her uncomfortable sexually and then reel her back with her knowing what it feels like to be a woman under control of a man. But doing this to her would sully her image and would also be extremely fucking hard because she's so strong and THAT JUST MAKES ME WANT TO DO IT MORE.

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cool cherrypicking dude, I think on my turn I'll compare Kotomine to Akiha

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>just kind of cries as dark sakura and the shadow do everything
Dark Sakura is Sakura, though. She kills four villains! What more do you need her to do?

>Should shirou grow up and quit being a retard

Yes.

>He also nearly killed Shinji.
He made some mistakes.

Thank god they kept this scene
youtube.com/watch?v=6FYT73ROrI0

Makihisa gave Kohaku tutelage by a guy who knows the biological faults of hybrids, with almost a doctorate level of knowledge, not bothering to monitor her concoctions. Then, there is the fact Akiha felt badly for her and stood up for her. Then we know the Tohnos are pretty much self destructing themselves, Shiki being adopted as basically their gun to shoot their family members. Kohaku's pieces were laid at her feet. And she had no reason to want to kill Akiha after Makihisa died, but still went along with the plan, despite Akiha having a retirement package ready for BOTH twins and knowing Akiha genuinely wanted the best for them.

Now let's compare to Sakura, who, despite the fact people will say Zouken has Alzheimers, has all his magical faculty going strong, enough to have familiars that not only suck up this girl with enormous potential's power away daily, they monitor her at all times, and he can kill her as easily as closing his eyes. Her retarded birth father even thought that a four year old with no training would beat a 200 year old archmagus. Sakura wasn't just sexually abused or physically abused, but had her very nature spliced and rearranged as an experiment. Despite that, she survived. Even Ilya says that toward the end of HF, she was amazed Sakura even knew her name with the shit she went through. And point of fact, Ilya would have been comatose with spirits and wouldn't have been able to save Shirou if Sakura's soul wasn't almost breaking with holding the souls in. For goodness sake, people act like what Sakura went through was some minor sniffles. Not to mention her having to deal with Shinji's inferiority/superiority complex where the dumbass saw the Matou magic was a sham and thought "man, that was taken from me, poor me". FFS, Sakura haters are the pinnacle of retarded, hypocritical, wastrels.

>yet, those hands will neverhold anything

Trolley Problem isn't applicable here, especially in HF, because the solution there was breaking the system that needed to be broken decades ago, and trying to mindlessly follow the ideal would mean killing Sakura for nothing when you could have just destroyed the grail system and provided the same result.

>just kind of cries while waiting for shirou
>kills assasin zouken and is the reason he wins against kotomine both mentally (shirou wanting to live with sakura) and physically (she literally made him a walking deadman and was the reason shirou survived the last punch.
I swear the sakura haters that use "she is useless" as an argument live in a alternative reality and didn't read the same VN

Shirou wins I meant

KARADA WA TSURUGI DE DEKITEIRU

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>He wouldnt ntr a loving wife
Nigga you gay

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Thus saving everyone!

based

I truly do not believe that the F/SN visual novel would have been the massive hit that it was if Shirou and Archer weren't executed as well as they were. Without the key fundamentals of their respective characters tying into the themes of FSN, the story wouldn't have been as well-remembered and enjoyed.

Shirou (and Archer) represent a modern hero while Gilgamesh is an ancient hero in the old school sense of "DOES GREAT THINGS" and he’s chaotic good even though he feeds off of limbless skinless orphans and tells arturia he will rape her. Essentially a pre-Christian, warrior society conception of a hero rather than a jesusesque guy willing to die to save people (like Shirou).

The parts of Zero that Urobuchi didn't get from FSN are pretty poor. The author couldn’t match the emotional depth and symbolism of Stay Night, so he figured he could compensate with rape.

I'm pretty sure "muh fate zero is fate stay night but actualy mature" are only limited to the American fandom.

>Fate/Stay Night was originally going to be two games: Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Other Night. FON would have been HF and Illya's route, but due to time constraints Nasu combined both routes of FON into what became the HF (hence why it's the longest, and most Illya centrist). It makes sense that Fate and UBW would have the same messages despite being two routes. They came from the same game: FSN

If Fate/Grand Order has the "Far Side" route, what would you think are the things, or twists do you expect in that route?
If anyone did not relate with this "Far Side" hijinks TYPE-MOON always in store with its visual novels, let me relate this:

Tsukihime:

Near Side: Arcueid, Ciel
Far Side: Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku

Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Other Night:

Near Side: Fate, UBW
Far Side: Heaven's Feel (However, because of the high cost of publishing two products at once, the Illya and Sakura arcs were partially combined, resulting in Heaven's Feel)

Fate (EXTRA):

Near Side: Fate/EXTRA
Far Side: Fate/EXTRA CCC

Another trivia about character design

>twitter.com/mhd_sutereo/status/1141208509301739520

Lots of interesting info on TM i never knew about. Apparently TM is heavily inspired by an artist group called SOFTBALLET.

Kotomine Kirei’s design is inspired by one of their members and it looks like Pepe’s design is a homage to one of their members who passed away in 2016.

Pepe’s master skills (Hologram Rose, Twist of Love, Exist) all appear to be titles of SOFTBALLET songs

The whole master and servant thing might actually be a reference to the Depeche Mode song; apparently Depeche Mode is one of the artists that influenced SOFTBALLET

Kirei's design is based on Endo Ryoichi while Pepe's design is based on Morioka Ken.

>Save kouhai
Shit route. Saving the imouto was superior Prisma Illya route.
youtu.be/rNL_WdZ-Tf0

Not as cute as Miyu was though. That was peak 'disregard humanity, acquire imouto' Shirou

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Anyone that read the novel knows that LE is a thing, and there he carried on with his ideals until he reached the true happy end.

No user, it is you who are not only gay, but a vile and putrid sort of villain. I have nothing but contempt for your entire existence.

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the power of NBR wincest.

never

could a friend temper shirou's ideals?

Drown in your morals and die.

I mean Shirou has friends but they are an autist monk and Shinji so unless either of them come to their senses, they can’t help him

In the anime, ayako definitely was concerned about him due to how dead inside he always looked. But sadly the end result of her talking to him was shirou getting flashback PTSD.

what if someone was willing to go on hero of justice shenanigans with him

>You will never go on hero of justice nighttime patrols with Shirou Emiya
Why even live?

I'm surprised there isn't an ending where you just drop Sakura. Like, after hearing about all the sexual abuse, you just go "Nah, I don't want to deal with this. I'd rather deal with one of the other routes instead, thanks. You do you, girl."

I'm convinced it's because the ideals are about saving people, and the good nature of the ideals blind many people from how they will affect Shirou in the long run.

But there is though, it's called Mind of Steel.

To be fair, that has a really cool setup. I'm not sure why it's a bad ending.

I remember there was one game, Yume Miru Kusuri, where the heroines were so terrible I went "No, they can all get fucked". There's actually an ending for that, and it's not too bad.

Sorry, Shirou isn't an incel.

It's a bad ending because it's not the story the writers wanted to go into detail about, that's all.

You should get a clue and abandon this shit franchise.

>should Shirou abandon his ideals
Only for Illya.
Maybe also Taiga.

>I'm surprised there isn't an ending where you just drop Sakura.

There are numerous bad ends for that

>are only limited to the American fandom.

I mean theres no other significant non-Japanese fanbase

No it's because both you and that guy clearly misunderstand the UBW and FATE routes you fag.

What unsettles me about UBW and Fate Shirou has little, if anything, to do with what that guy said though.

illya is fucking garbag

Can you call it salvation if you're giving a ruined world to the one you love?

That's what I don't get most about this sacrifice thousands for one deal. You get the one you love back, but the feelings of the person themselves is just an afterthought to your own happiness.

That hair looks worse than extella link's mullet archer
Literally just extensions

If shirou has time to untie multiple people then what he should do is flip the lever and untie the single person on the other side.

It's a bad ending because Shirou kills everyone dear to him just to save his dumb ideal. Who the hell considers that a good ending?

I HAB CREATE overaTHOUSAN BLADE

Miyu literally made him go kill "Justice"

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this shirou was broken from the start because he saw how kiritsugu worked

>saw how kiritsugu worked
Wrong. This is the power of loli cups wincest.

He should stay true to his ideals because the girl who truly loves him will always be waiting

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Absolutely based.

I hope this shirou is gonna fucking die
he is a stain

He is true hero of loli and Yea Forums, because we're all cute girls here.

Do you guys prefer the original or the very literal translation of the VN?

The based Illya Route.

Don't follow the ilya show/manga that much what makes this version of Shirou different ?

as a HF fag, I hate the people who champion this "I'll let any number of people die for th eone I love" thing so easily, it somewhat misses the point of HF and creates a strawman of HF for others to shit on the route, as can be seen in this very thread.

>Just Because you're correct doesn't mean your right

>Your correctness is being right

So which line is the correct?

He ends up with her when he's Archer age physically and god knows how old mentally

>this version of Shirou different ?
The TLDR: Miyuverse Shiro was trained by kiritsugu to be a mage before he died.
He was suppose to somehow use Miyu's holy grail powers to save world. He teaches her to be a cawaii imouto instead.
Antag kidnaps Miyu for reasons.
Sakura tries to inform him about holy grail war and gives him a fake Archer card which she thought was Gil card. But card was fake.She dies.
By the power of selfinsert and protecting that smile, Shiro selfinsert himself even though it was fake card.
Beats holygrail war in 1 night.
Wishes happiness for Miyu.
Fights on even ground Angelica(Gil card installed) with his own version of UBW even w/o his BS selfinsert card.
etc etc etc...Miyu teleports to Prisma Illya's world S1.

seems pretty based but i do have to wonder HOW on earth Kiritsugu convinced him to train. Is his origin any different?

Why would he need convincing? Shirou always wanted to learn magecraft but kerry always blueballed him. He literally almost killed himself every night after kerry died practicing magic.

this isn't shirou

>as a HF fag
pfffth

It's not. The movie was dogshit fanfiction of the lowest quality I've ever seen. The writing was like someone read a wiki of all 3 routes and went "I BET I CAN MAKE SHIROU A BADASS" not realizing the point was never to make Shirou cool.

Die.

People that abandon their ideals are not people.
They're the walking dead.

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I really wish shirou did the last frame without care for sakura.

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Does he?
Interesting.

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This.

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Most chunni edge stone cold Shero.

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> 83
(=^･ω･^=)

So given a choice between saving
>Sakura
>Illya
>Rin
>Saber
>Taiga
Who would Shirou pick?
How does it change based on the route?
Does the guilt crush him?

flithy primaries don't understand.

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>>Sakura
Pretty much HF.
>>Illya
Sort of Prisma Illya if Shiro was Kerry instead.
>>Rin
Sort of UBW.
>>Saber
Pretty much Fate.
>>Taiga
Who cares. She's a buttmonkey.
>How does it change based on the route?
That's how VNs work.

>implying Taiga doesn't override pretty much everyone else automatically
Don't be so quick in your judgement.

Has there EVER been a non-bitch character named 'Shinji'? I'm wondering if this is some sort of Japanese pun I'm missing, like the kanji spell 'pussy' or something when you turn them upside-down.

>Shirou is a failure most of the time, he's just mindlessly helping people in a way that doesn't actually help them, like giving away free money. Giving away free money to people that don't have any value towards it just means they piss it away instantly, and its gone the next day. In fact it might actually fuck them up worse in the process, like people that win the lottery.

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>not going the harem end
Weak.

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>this is ethical
Fixed

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Reminder that Shirou is 100% prepared to kill Rin to stop her from risking Taiga's life, in her own route.

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Not that guy but I'd argue that HF shirou's possibly the most broken of the bunch. If Sakura dies, he'd probably go more insane than Mind of Steel. He'd probably conduct mass-murder if it's needed to save her. He'd do actions befitting a villain in various stories.

is there a doujin with medea/taiga?

UMU would put Shiro on the right path

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>hedonistic whore of babylon

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Exactly

Living for oneself >>> Living for others. She'd stop him being a sword autist destined for the rope.

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would fuck that archer.

Of the few good emperors nero's not one of them, her biggest claim to fame is issuing the urine tax
You must store and give your urine to your prelate
or pay money
taxed
urine

I actually forgot the word for latin tax collectors, someone fill it in for me

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Wouldn't it be the Domus Aurea? Something that's still a major part of Rome's tourism today?

Nero was probably a victim of circumstance like most tyrants.
Though apparently he did "swing" a bit and had an androgynous mistress (male) from memory.

Based Umu.

Slaanesh approves of this

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>servant starts demanding that you bottle your piss and give it to them.
How are you supposed to respond to this, even?

>Nero was probably a victim of circumstance like most tyrants.
Most tyrants need to be raped into submission.

really underwhelming senpai

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>not having piss jars on hand
are you some kind of normal fag?

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guys I think I fucked this up
>For the first time, a tax on the disposal of urine was imposed by Emperor Nero under the name of “vectigal urinae” in the 1st century AD. However the tax was removed after a while, it was re-enacted by Vespasian around 70 AD in order to fill the treasury.[2][3]
red saber might be innocent

Issei would be happy with his ideas, but the thing is,what if Shinji knew all about Shirou? The reason they are even friends was because Shinji saw people taking advantage of Shirou good will, while he started doing the same he still dislike people using him, If Shirou told him about his idea what would he reason? he would shrugged it off?Would he get angry like always? or would that actually wake him up a bit of his anger?

Continue to be a superhero is always the correct choice.

lmfao

Gotta say it somehow even if it sounds fake as shit, and what I said wasn't all that weird.

Unrelated: but I don't think the sex scenes are too out of tone for Fate. Shirou is a genuinely good and kind person with a nice body. If I was a girl his age I'd want to have sex with him too.

Miyu is so shit, not even being in FGO could save her negative popularity.

She still ruined the franchise and began tarnishing the image of Saber Arturia by inviting the torrent of endless low effort saberclones.

Fuck umushitters

Shirou should fuck his king.

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They're great if you are a waifufag who wants to know what your waifu's snatch looks like or what she likes/doesn't like in bed.

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Miyu is the best girl, Japs have shit taste (which is a good thing because it minimizes the amount of fat old men doujins she gets compared to Illya and Chloe)

It's only really bad in Heaven's Feel

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>implying girls like nice guys

Believe it or not, if the nice guy is an attractive, relatively charismatic and fairly popular guy and not a fat friendless slob, they do.

You can be a nice guy and also alpha you khs virgin beta cuck

The key is to have a complete, or at least semi-complete package. Shirou is good looking, muscular, a good cook, responsible, and level headed. He is intelligent and even manages to hold his own against magical beings who would butt rape 90% of normal mages. Him being good and kind is the cherry on top.

Most "nice guys" are ugly looking subhumans who don't actually respect the women they're after. They brownose and are nothing more than yes men. All they have to offer is empty praise.

>muh girls only like assholes argument
Whatever helps you sleep at night

Incels BTFO

fpbp

Fuck, you're a genius who has mastered morality.

Shirou saved us from the Fukushima reacotr popping off by firing swords at the uranium until there was enough of them to create a heat sink

the fourth holy grail war was covered up as the kobe earthquake. policies department and all that.

I want to spar with this qt baka.

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SHUT THE FUCK UP. MULLET ARCHER DOESN'T EXIST

Why do you want to die?

old hag

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Yes? Shinji in Fate is a chad.
>popular
>has beta slave doing his bidding
>has unlimited pussy works
>still "rapes" his "sister"
>knowledgeable
If he had good magic circuts he would have won.

>responsible, and level headed
He's a moron who wants to fight in place of a powerful heroic spirit, just because said spirit is a girl.

Weak bait.

>shirou "super puff girls shouldn't fight" emiya
>not a retard
Choose 1 (one).

>implying this baka (semen demon) would beat me
You dare question my power?

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>shinji
>chad
So this is the power of nu-Yea Forums.

>Being able to swallow your pride to stay alive
The mark of a true chad

user, your bones would shatter from the first exchange.
If you're lucky you'll just be crippled.

>nu
So this is the power of forcing a meme.

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Reminder that shirou needs to lose saber to give a damn about the other girls, so your questions been answered

What about Taiga though?
Or Illya too, I guess.

>goes behind Saber's back to see Illya every chance he gets

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Just according to keikaku (keikaku means plan).

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He will help them of course, he wont be holding hands with them though

I miss this Illya. Prisma is fine and all, but she's just not the same, you know?

But he admits to liking Sakura in day 7, before Saber dies in HF. lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 287/

>11-year-old thot Illya is more popular than Ilya onee-chan
I'll never forgive the Japanese

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I know that feel.
It's that smug evilness and the gap moe.

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Eleven's have an emperor, not a king.

Reminder they are both the same person, idiot.

It's exactly this.
Illya is the best character in FSN.
The equal parts of affectionate innocence and ruthless evil combine perfectly to make her the best girl.

This just sounds like you didn't understand shit about the novel.
Fuck fact or you secondary: Nasu also wrote he considers Shirou as a parody of what a fake hero is meant to represent in every route except Heaven's Feel.

>nasu
Where?

First time read/played F S/N she scared the crap out of me because it was honestly somewhat unexpected.
She was moe, but then all of a sudden she's sending her servant to hack you into pieces.

Speaking of this trope - it's an old horror trope, but it isn't used in a horror setting. That's the thing about F S/N, it toys with horror, gore and eldricht abominations without going all in with it. It's still an eroge/ drama to me.
That shit is not done enough I think. Both anime and non animated narratives.

I came for faps and girls, I got a thrilling ride.

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They were all true heroes. They all chose what protect and who to sacrifice for that protection.

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Fuck Nasu for not giving her a route.
Don't give me that "Prisma is the Illya route" BS either.
They aren't even close to the same character.

Kerry would either blow up the train car or shoot the lone guy in the face before he got ran over. He needs that extra bit of edge or he feels like he's being soft.

I never watched Prisma mainly because I assumed they'd moe up Illya without regard to her true character in F S/N.
Her true charm is this innocent appearance and demeanour and how that subverts your expectations for what she truly is like. Superb gap moe.

Imagine Illya but her character is taken away and she's also the age she looks.
There's also Chloe, who is supposed to also be Illya but is basically just a slut with no character either.
There's also Retard Shirou and the alternate universe Fanfic Overpowered Shirou.
Everyone gets Flanderized hardcore.

It's...
Not good.

Boy Gil makes it all worthwhile though.

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Holy fucking shit dudes

W-why

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.. does he wear a skirt?

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Not aryan enough.

Shoulda bought some mystic eyes lmao.

being Archibald is suffering

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To be fair, that's nothing like it would have looked like back then.

youtube.com/watch?v=5b1xKrVEM0c
youtube.com/watch?v=OTXtJ7mMa3A

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What a waste of money.
Jesus.

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When I was playing VN blind for the first time long ago, I chose not to fight in the beginning just to see what happens. Ilya scared the shit out of me in that first bad end where Berserker rips apart Shirou's limbs and squashes him into 2 dimensional object or something like that.
I didn't expect anything like that from F/SN back then.

I expected porn. How shocked did you think I was when it happened?
That's why I'm thinking I should give muv luv a chance because that does something similar (though way more eroge like than F S/N which barely was an eroge).
School Days does interesting shit too, the porn actually ruins it and I played that for the PLOT.

A few VNs edge on what fate does, but none truly nail it like fate.

vndb.org/v211
G-senjou no Maou did it too. You came for the porn or "eroge VN experience" but then the plot distracts you from that entirely and it just becomes a thriller with sex scenes.

Yeah, that's why they hated him. Well, that and a bunch of other reasons.

>Chloe, who is supposed to also be Illya but is basically just a slut with no character
Shut the fuck up animeonly

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I exclusively read the manga and she's shit there too.
I skipped the anime.
Sorry your shitty imitation is a bad character, I guess.

Haters gonna hate

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Chloe is unironically the most developed and complex out of the main trio, if you think she's just slutty fanservice lolibait your brain has been rotted by doujins

Like seriously, you know you've fucked up when Fanfic OP Shirou and Good Guy Kotomine are far more memorable and impactful than any of your main cast.

>most developed of the main trio
It's Prisma, that's not saying much.
It's like saying a grass seed develops more than some rocks.
I mean, technically, you are correct, but it's still boring

It doesn't even have any practical utility though.
It's just a vanity project.

It's not like a border wall or Trajan's Bridges right?
I understand one or two minor aesthetic projects... but that's a colossus of a knobhead.

What interesting or well developed traits does she even have,heck the archer's memories thing isn't even going anywhere last time i read the damn manga

He's naked and proud

That's just a nude baka.

Do you think Gilgamesh has a potion that magically switches your gender in Gate of Babylon?
I need to know...
For reasons.

I think I know your reasons.

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>I understand one or two minor aesthetic projects... but that's a colossus of a knobhead.
No, it's an entire sprawling mansion complex the size of a small city, built in the middle of downtown Rome on top of the smoldering ruins of homes and businesses. The colossus was just the cherry on top, along with the giant man-made lake he created.

No.
UBW Router Shirou is the best Shirou and Rins ass feels much better then Sakuras wormy slit.

Get off the internet, Shinji.

Now I'm thinking it's just very moe.

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Kiritsugu died from ball cancer

Should have had Shirou milk him

it would betray the reason why she fell for him in the first place. It would go against who they both are and even when he really wanted to do it, he wasn't willing. But he isn't willing to forget Saber and let things stay the way they are, so he seeked her out for eternity. That goes perfectly in line with his ideals, even when its impossible, he's gonna fucking trying his damnest to save everyone or die trying

true

...

HF Shirou is the best Shirou and Sakura will make him much happier than that bitch Rin ever could.

Illya could make him happier than either.
As can Saber.

lmao sakura lobotomises shirou
she's a plague on humanity

holy shit my fucking dick
i didn't know i needed this that much

Why are you typing like a public school dropout

eso

?

I just never really got saber as a character, if you ask me
I mean, she was supposed to be the "perfect" king of britain, chosen by excalibur and an overpowered superhuman with years of experience in ruling a country

But in the fate route, she acts like a 15 year old girl who is not really that mature for someone of her position. I mean, of course she is more mature than shirou and acts like tiger mom all the time, but it is not the personality which I would expect from someone who ruled a country for about a decade.
Hell, she gets hyper awkward when giving shirou a blowjob or that weird ass threesome. Doesnt she have sex experience because Merlin gave her a magical cock?

Saber in UBW makes much more sense though, spergs out much less and is like a comrade to shirou not a 15 yo love interest

english second language

Tfw she never bought that plane ticket.

Probably Illya, Sakura or Taiga if it's start of VN Shirou.
Illya looking so young bumps her priority up a bit.
Fate: Saber or Illya
UBW: Rin or Illya (extreme guilt)
HF: Sakura... or Illya (Unfathomable guilt)

Taiga is really unquantifiable here, honestly.

Because Fate route Saber is Saber finally acting like a regular person and not some paragon of a king.

WHAT IS THE BEST ENDING IN ALL OF FATE SERIES, AND WHY IS IT PIC RELATED?
youtube.com/watch?v=tIyNAF5rgYk

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Shouldn't you be spamming new threads?

>Sakura will make him much happier than that bitch Rin ever could.
Shirou should make himself happy, instead of relying on so many unreliable others.

Shut up you fucking pussy if you were in Shinji's shoes at 14 you would've pissed your pants every day and done jackshit. Even better is that's basically what you do now even without having to carry the fate of the world on your shoulders. Faggot.

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this isn't "persist to become a hero"

She wasn't called "the perfect King" because that is impossible you double nigger. She was considered the ideal King, which is one that can do the best they can given their options and natural limits. The whole point of her character is trying to cope with the fact she couldn't ever be the "perfect King" and so she wants to retcon her life, which furthers shows how ideal of a King she was: wanting to make the ultimate sacrifice by retconning her entire life. Selfless altruism and what not.

Speadreaders, everyone.

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Even if she was acting like a regular human, it does not nullify her experience as someone who went to war, managed economy, pulled off difficult decisions and demonstrated leadership.
For someone literally prophesied to be the "chosen king" by merlin, she does not seem to show that fortitude.

If Shirou doesn't abandon his ideals, he will become in effect a fascist: an aesthetically pleasing ideology built on trying to achieve an unactionable and unachievable (i.e irrational) ideal, since his fixation on his ideal is with the utopian, self-denying appeal of his belief system, not the actionable aspects forcing him to take responsibility for his own actions (draw a parallel to nationalism there if you will).

"My ideals aren't wrong, they aren't wrong, they aren't wrong, IM THE ONE WHO IS WRONG! MY (ideal's) IDEAL STATE OF LIVING IS BEAUTIFUL!!! IT'S ME WHO CAN'T ATTAIN IT!!! I'M JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!"

He's not actually concerned with the state of things on a practical levrl, he's only "rebelling" against it with a irrational ideological belief to deny responsibility for his own actions. HF Shirou recognizes this contradiction, like anyone living like the well-off Shirou would if he had literally anyone to tell them off, and decides to become a salaryman. Why?

Because he realized he is attempting to dismantle, by himself, a system that literally everyone else lives by even if they don't all 100% agree with it. Sakura certainly doesn't agree being a worm pussy chick, but fuck else is she going to do? Act out? In JAPAN? Not a real woman, only way to get her honor back is via suicide. Rin probably doesn't accept the magepill as much as her dad, but fuck it she likes it, she got used to it.

So Fate Shirou is a moron, UBW Shirou is a fascist, and HF Shirou is a regular boring person. Of course he should abandon his ideals - he'll realize how playing the hero for others can't replace his responsibility for himself.

she's actually acting like a normal person for once, she's inexperienced in that respect since she was only ever normal around the dick wizard that fakes human and her brother and even then she still didn't quite understand her own feelings. When she's around Shirou she makes up that lost time

Fine, so she was not the perfect king.
Still, she had a full decade of experience in ruling a country. There should have been some level of transferable skills excluding combat matters, if you ask me

Merlin a fucking shit though. I'm not just talking in this universe, in any universe that reverse-boi aint right.

thats the point, he's not human and literally doesn't understand humans, but he still loves humanity and finds them really fun. He likes fucking with people or just messing around but his endgame is always for the betterment of humanity

No? I think you got me confused with someone else dude

Yeah that's good too, but it doesn't have the best song in the game playing during it

>So Fate Shirou is a moron, UBW Shirou is a fascist, and HF Shirou is a regular boring person
>this is what brainlets actually believe

Shut up Shirou.

Saber's awkward fate route personality spawns from the fact that she treats Shirou as a romantic interest rather than as another comrade in arms. Literally answered your own question. One of the major points about Saber's character is how she's worn the mask of the king almost all her life and has almost no conception of what she wants and desires as an individual and how to act on them. As for the awkward sex, the merlin magic made Saber go temporarily crazy or some shit. Regular Saber with a dong would never have just randomly banged someone and spawned a bastard. And just because you have a pump and dump doesn't mean she's comfortable with having a threesome for the first time or giving a blowjob for the first time.

Both wrong, its Saber meeting up with the Redman/Shirou in Avalon.

Except neither Shirou, nor Archer have ever refused to take responsibility for their actions.

>takeuchi's fanfic
no

>The reason Shirou wants to save everyone is because he finds the ideal itself beautiful
Well no, read UBW. He was just like a chick imprinting when Kiritsugu saved him. All he wanted was to be happy like Kiritsugu was when he saved him. Kiritsugu seemed happy in that moment to Shirou, that's all Shirou wanted. However Shirou in his deluded state deeply misunderstood the situation. However that memory etched onto his soul regardless, that moment is all he's been trying to obtain all this time.

He admits he just wanted to be happy like Kiritsugu was in that moment. The reveal near the end of UBW is that despite how stupidly simplistic that is, and how its impossible to ever reach that goal due to his misunderstanding, that's all it is.

He'll always get his ideal wrong, and he'll never be happy, because he misunderstood this one thing. When he gets older he kills and kills those in the foreground, to save a majority in the background, when the only thing that really makes him happy according to HF and CCC, is to save someone in the same way he was saved. Just some person who was lost to the darkness and the world already gave up on them, and he reached out his hand to them. Tha'ts all he really wanted.

All he really wanted was to be the smiling face looking down on someone as he saved them

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Shirou is a vocel lets be honest

he's such a fucking bro I swear

honestly, how is Last Episode anymore more fanfic than Sunny Day or Heaven's Feel True End?

HF True was written due to Nasu feeling it was needed. LE was written due to Takeuchi pestering Nasu.

You cannot fucking tell me that HF True isn't fanfic but Last Episode is.

I'll agree that shirou should die in HF

Last Episode involves no real sacrifice, is not foreshadowed, and isn't a particularly fitting end given the nature of the relationship. None of these apply to HF True. (I won't try to defend UBW Good; it could've been cut out and nothing of value would be lost)

Only the stupid ones.

HF True was foreshadowed all the way back in Fate. LE was just an add-on tacked onto a neutered console port years after the fact.

How is spending the eternity in search of your true love not a sacrifice?

She acts like a King all the god damn time though. Stop reading so many doujins and fan-material. She acts calm and reserved throughout almost the entire Fate route. Scenes were added in Realta Nua to make her more palatable to normie brainlets but OG VN Saber Arturia acted just as a King would until she was treated like a girl and started to enjoy it. Her femininity is the exception not the norm. But her girlyness is unknown to her and that's what makes her charming.

TM is both Takeuchi and Nasu you mong. Whatever Takeuchi adds to the lore should also be considered canon.

It wraps up the very first scene being from Redman's perspective.

seething sakurafag

>no real sacrifice
except yk, he had to chase after Saber for an eternity even after forgetting her little by little and with no real way of knowing if he'll ever see her again

>None of these apply to HF True
Most of the damage he did to himself was rendered moot since he got a new body

>isn't a particularly fitting end given the nature of the relationship
It absolutely works in the context of Fate route Shirou who never gives up on his impossible ideal, he never gives up on reaching Saber in an impossible realm.

He was going to spend his whole life being a hero of justice anyway. Keeping the thought "I want to find Saber again" in his head is nothing compared to that.

Cherry Blossom's Dream > Continuation of the Dream > Brilliant Years > Last Episode > Return to the Spring > shit > Sunny Day

not counting the scenes that lead into the ending because otherwise HF True would be untouchable

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except he had to make a miracle happen and actively seek her for an eternity if he ever wanted to see her again

>except yk, he had to chase after Saber for an eternity even after forgetting her little by little and with no real way of knowing if he'll ever see her again
He was going to spend his whole life being a hero of justice anyway. Keeping Saber in his heart isn't much of a sacrifice.
>Most of the damage he did to himself was rendered moot since he got a new body
The sacrifice I'm talking about is Illya.

>It absolutely works in the context of Fate route Shirou who never gives up on his impossible ideal, he never gives up on reaching Saber in an impossible realm.
He never gives up on his ideal, but he never actually achieves it because it's impossible. The same should hold for actually finding Saber again. And Saber by her nature is the sort of person you have to let go if you really love her.

HF true is foreshadowed the entire route, with Ilya telling you bit by bit about Heaven's Feel. And finally ending the route with "I'll show you the sorcery that people have been talking about all this time. I can tell you twenty or thirty other reasons that HF True fits better thematically as well, and only that ending fits the damn theme of the story. The story about what it actually means to save someone for real, and how saving one person can be harder than saving the world sometimes since the world is just a loose concept and many can die in the process and you've still saved "the world". Shirou only saved Sakura in the route where he stuck around with her and helped her, and didn't allow her to be alone anymore. The route isn't about eternal punishment, the route is about moving on and restarting. The harsh winter is over, its spring again, Shirou has confronted himself and his past and moved forward, Sakura has moved forward, they've all put the past behind them finally and moved on. Its not a fanfic, its the only damn thing that fits the core themes of the route. Its the fucking ending where we get the poem at the end that symbolizes the story and the grail wars with "open the gate of heaven, the sage cries. Close the gate of heaven, our aspirations were doomed from the start." which ties into the poem at the very end. And its the story that finally closes the grail war.

This was the ending that was being led up to with the story, the other ending where they've all mentally died and didn't move on at all doesn't fit worth shit, I think even Nasu realized that after reading it.

However Fate route is set up to be tragic and temporary, its about moving on, and moving forward. LE breaks the theme, it breaks the narrative about the ideal being impossible from UBW, and it was just a side story added in ten years later so of course it doesn't fit. Shirou even making it to Avalon after he died is unfitting in its own ways.

>and isn't a particularly fitting end given the nature of the relationship
This is bullshit. Waver does pretty much the same thing Shirou does in Case Files and it makes sense in both contexts. You try spending a few weeks fighting alongside a beautiful/cool heroic spirit and try and just forget about it. Wouldn't you want to reconnect with that person who inspired you and went through hell and back with you?

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In terms of how well the epilogues are executed, I agree, except I wouldn't know where to put Last Episode. It's the most spectacular in presentation and execution, but at heart it's a polished turd.

The ideal is impossible. Finding Saber again is impossible. The point is that the journey is worth it in itself. Giving out a free happy ending at the end cheapens everything that went before.

>LE breaks the theme, it breaks the narrative about the ideal being impossible from UBW

Its almost like Fate route and UBW told different stories and had different themes, both correct in their own way and don't detract from the other

LE shouldn't be considered to have any impact thematically on UBW. They both focus on very different parts of Shirou's dilemma. LE introduces a great idea into the Fateverse, as I highlighted here What do you do AFTER fighting alongside a Servant? How can someone just move on? It's unrealistic honestly to think that Shirou would just find someone or something else after the impact she had on him. Sure, it was "tacked on" but keep in mind Takeuchi has a say in the story as well. Nasu couldn't see how interesting it is to think of the life the master has after the HGW.

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Okay, I guess that means it's canon that Archer and Lancer are just as valid partners for Rin as Shirou is.

Fuck off saberhater. You barely have an argument anymore. You're just repeating yourself now.

dude you're honestly full of shit, for some reason its fine that Shirou gets a happy ending in HF True where he gets to be with Sakura despite breaking his mind and cooking his nerves so much that he ends up forgetting most of his life and somehow surviving all that with a new body, with Sakura and with Rider for some reason but Last Episode, where he spends an eternity seeking out Saber and in turn holding on to his ideal, just makes no sense

I don't hate Saber, just Last Episode. And my argument is right. What, do you think Shirou's ideal becomes possible to achieve just because he's in Fate and not UBW? C'mon.

>What do you do AFTER fighting alongside a Servant

I'm fucking positive Nasu said this is an important part to the story, he goes more into depth with it but fuck idk where it is

It's not exactly wrong though

>but keep in mind Takeuchi has a say in the story as well
Takeuchi is arguably as much a reason as Nasu is for why Fate Stay Night happened in the first place

For me, what makes HF true fanfic tier is that Rider gets to stay just like UBW good, otherwise it's alright.

What the FUCK happened?

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I won't defend Rider's presence, but Shirou accepting the ultimate sacrifice from Illya because he wants to live and be happy with Sakura is a very fitting end to Heaven's Feel. Whereas half the point of Fate is that Shirou has to learn to let go of Saber if he truly loves her. Achieving his ideal is impossible, and reuniting with Saber is impossible. He would spend his life trying to do both anyway, so there's no real sacrifice involved, it's just a happy ending artificially tacked on where it doesn't belong.

where's Monty Python

Rider staying is likely a remnant of when both Shirou and Rin died at the end of HF.

Sakura staying tied to the Greater Grail's bottomless mana reserve makes a lot more sense than "Rin is such a good magus she can maintain a fucking Servant without the Grail but only with 'help' from Shirou ;)"

delet this harem shit

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>there's no real sacrifice involved
t. brainlet
Both require significant sacrifices from him, and the fact that he accepts them doesn't change anything.
He literally could have been doing anything else, Fate has him sacrifice the most of all the routes.

Being a hero of justice and remembering Saber is what he was going to do anyway, regardless of the result. He "could" have been doing anything else, but in reality Fate Shirou wouldn't have it any other way. To sacrifice something, you have to actually give up something you would've had otherwise. Fate Shirou was never not going to be a hero of justice, and he was never going to completely forget Saber.

Yes, that's a choice he makes that has tangible consequences for him.
And he really didn't need to spend his afterlife searching for Saber. That was, again, his choice.

You sure he spent his afterlife, not just his regular life, searching for Saber? I didn't get that from LE, and I don't think Nasuverse humans (who don't become heroic spirits or counter guardians) even have a proper afterlife.

I don't know how else you could interpret 'eternity'.
It's not like Shirou was immortal.

>Last Episode involves no real sacrifice, is not foreshadowed, and isn't a particularly fitting end given the nature of the relationship.
Fate route isn't a story about sacrifice, it's a story about how two people who have suicidal messianic complexes and hold no sense of self value come to realize their own worth by falling in love with one another. They also both come to realize that just because they try and act on their ideals in life as best they can, things won't always turn out for the best, but that doesn't mean your ideals are wrong or unachievable. So the two of them accept their paths in life and continue on holding on to their impossible love and in the end actualize it.

Don't talk about Shiro like you know him, cuz he's my pal!

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King

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You read the fanfic didn't you?

>Whereas half the point of Fate is that Shirou has to learn to let go of Saber if he truly loves her.
The point of Fate is that you have two people with huge savior complexes who are willing to delete themselves without hesitation learn to have self value and personal desires through their love of one another. So it is perfectly thematic to have an ending where two selfless people's single desire is made real while the results of the selfless sacrifices lie in ruin.

It says "In his final years." and "Something precious was left for him at the end of his life." Not talking about the afterlife.

Which fic?

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>but that doesn't mean your ideals are wrong or unachievable
But his ideal is unachievable. He can't stay with Saber forever any more than he can save everyone all the time.

But he does it anyway because fuck you. Avalon is a place that only exists for those two after they've done something infinitely impossible. Like a limit in calculus: as an infinite repeating digit approaches a number it essentially equals that number. This is the nature of mathematics and reality.

I don't know but some user said in a long time ago about a popular fanfic where shirou became a firefighter after the hgw

The point isnt of the dream being unacheivable, its that he continues to pursue it despite of, even after forgetting saber, his life, whatever

Avalon exists for Saber, not for Shirou. Achieving the ideal or meeting Saber again is like approaching infinity with real numbers: no matter how far you go, you're always infinitely far away, but at least you can look back and see how far you've come.

To be honest I probably would've been thrilled about riding a giant robot, right till the fucking giant monsters appeared.

Yes, he's such an annoying faggot.

Shirou is a dumb whiny bitch.

Posting a real human bean.

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>His ideal was not kill the few for the many
At the start of Fate the ideal of "become a superhero" means helping as many people as he can no matter the cost. The idea of kill whoever I have to in order to save the greatest number of people is just the logical extreme of the idea of "being a superhero". MoS is absolutely not a denial of his ideals its embracing them to the extreme opposite of the point he starts. Its like someone who wants to save the planet from what humanity does to it. One extreme is to reform humanity as a whole into earth loving hippies. The other side is to kill every single person on the planet. Same ideals just extrapolated out into two opposite extremes

Rin is the best girl for Shirou solely because he gets to lead an actual life with her. In Fate he doesn't get to reunite with Saber until after enduring a massive amount of shit over a fuckhuge amount of years. In HF he either dies or gets a puppet body that kinda sucks. In UBW he goes to London with Rin and gets to have a fucking life with her. Saber 2nd best girl tho

>FSN would be as big if the main character and his future superhero self werent as good of characters
No fucking shit. Turns out a piece of literature is typically only as good as the main characters. Who knew

No, their ideal was to 'save everyone'. Their inability to follow through led to the contradictory resolution you see with Archer and Kiritsugu.
It also specifies 'endless pursuit', and Saber's perspective makes it clear that more than just one lifetime passed since their last meeting.

>HF he either dies or gets a puppet body that kinda sucks.
Where does this meme come from? The puppet body is just as good as his original body, except that the sex is better and the magical energy doesn't flow as well. I'd call that a toss-up at worst and a win at best.

>The puppet body is just as good as his original body
it's not, its weaker and he needs to control it differently

Where do you get this from? The container Illya put Shirou into had its problems, but the puppet body they found was as good as new. Rin assumes it isn't as good as the original, but Sakura corrects her.

Actual retard

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If she was ideal why did she usurp the throne to the real heir, Morgan? If she was ideal, why didn't she fulfill her only expectaction, breed and left a heir to secure the line instead of using the children of the sister she usurped as props?

Fuck off Mofag

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Morgan was the first born true daughter of Uther in Fate, and the one with the real right to rule Britian (the supernatural connection to the land Artoria lacked, by the way - when Morgan awoke hers, Uther discarded Artoria and sent her off with that knight). This is a FACT now. The sword selection was bullshit Merlin made up and rigged using the greed of the feudal lords to usurp Morgan after Uther died. Because it was an experiment to him. He "played" with Artoria's fate (and later regretted it). Artoria was complicit in usurpation. She couldn't even run the kingdom without Morgan's children covering her ass. Gareth was assigned heiress, Agravain was the one who ran the kingdom for her, and Gawain acted not just as one of her best knights but as the envoy to represent her in other kingdoms. The other brother probably did something as important.

The only retard child was Mordred, made as Artoria's clone.

Why was Morgan such a crazy cunt?

>Artoria was complicit in usurpation
She understandably thought it was her destiny, retard. You can't blame her for that. We have no reason to believe anyone would have done better as a king anyway. Quit your memes.

Post the maid ones.