Fate/Alternate Night

>Imagine
It makes me glad Tokiomi made the right choice that sounds grating as hell

Apocrypha even confirms that Sakura's OHOHO is very loud.

>implying that trauma can change one's personality
cringe

And what will be Matou Rin be like is there stated anything?

Nope. Takeuchi just made a joke and then Nasu laughed and then Takeuchi laughed with him and done, they moved to another question.

Depending how strong will person have it can be broken more or less. Rin is far more vulnerable in this regard than Sakura.

Good God... this is why Fate have their own boards in 2ch. Fate is 2ch's version of our very own /vp/.

HF2 BD
>Q10:
>What kind of life does Sakura live if she is adopted to the Edelfelt family? According to the event book alone, Edelfelt probably has this idea.
>A10:
>Nasu: The ultra dark black Heel of Baby Face is completed.
>Takeuchi: Bondagee Sakura...!
>Nasu: Seriously, Luvia has a similar temperament, but also believes in aristocracy, so it will give priority to the development of Sakura's talent. Finally, Sakura may become Cool and Dark, but a good first-class magician.
>Takeuchi: That's really wonderful~.

Apocrypha materials
>In the Fate/Apocrypha universe, the Fourth Holy Grail War didn't occur, Shirou is still living in Fuyuki with his original surname unchanged. His personality is a lot closer to his Capsule Servant counterpart. Still having an honest and upright personality, and likely going through days with a love comedy-like tone, along with a twin-tail magic-fist user and her cheerful little sister who laughs like a high-class young lady.

>The Tohsaka gave up on the Greater Grail, and now seek a new path in becoming one with the universe with Chinese Kenpou while learning magecraft. The twin-tail daughter of the family might also end up becoming the founder of a “completely new martial arts that combines magecraft and Chinse Kenpou” by the time she becomes a high school student. However, she never imagined that her younger sister who was adopted by distant relatives would come visit her in Japan after becoming a pro-wrestler with unimaginably nice proportions and forming a tag team with a drill-roll-haired girl…!

>sakura
>likeable
>ever

Matou Rin is still cute.

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My dick likes Sakura

What the fuck does ultra dark black Heel of Baby Face mean?

This is a subject I have spent a very long time thinking about.

The two sisters would probably both resent the hell out of each other heavily. Sakura resenting the strong and stoic older sister who never came back to help her with their mother's decline into insanity after their father's death. Rin resenting that she was sold off to be molested by worms for a decade.

Matou Rin would be a dominant bitch and gradually that facade torn apart would be a major part of her development. It wouldn't happen in an instant, though. She would be like reverse yandere, serial rapist slowly turned into loving waifu and oneesan. She had to make herself strong and emotionless in order to endure the Matou's teachings, and for long, she knew no other form of human interaction than dominance-submission. Now that she made herself the dominant one, all people are now insects to be submitted to her will or simply crushed.

Assuming that Rin is the one that is always around Shirou because he is friends with her pathetic brother and Sakura is just some cute younger girl that Shirou sees around campus, that has a secret crush on him, everything changes pretty quickly. Rin isn't Shinji, so she wouldn't need to support Rider by setting up the field around the school. Without the field there is no reason for Sakura and Archer to run into Lancer meaning no reason for Lancer to try and kill Shirou after being scene. If we assume the battle between Archer and Lancer happens anyway and Sakura saves Shirou because plot convenience it's going to be interesting to see the siblings to battle over the grail and over Shirou. Rin being the possessive Yangire who took care of her property while he was injured and Sakura being the shy girl who finally got senpai to notice her. Rin would probably loath Saber and hate the very idea that Shirou would show more love for a "tool" than her.

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That Sakura would be top-tier dark ojou.

Rin would be absolutely broken, a lot of her willpower is an act and she always relies on the people around her. She'd have a poor match up against the worm pit.

Likewise Sakura would have a terrible match-up dealing with Kirei. I'm expecting Bazett level disaster once the war begins. A few characters describe Kirei as a mirror that brings out the worst in people and there's a lot worse in Sakura than Rin that he can work with, it's just a question of can he control it or will he end up killed like when he tried to pull that shit in HF.

Sakura had her personality changed greatly as well

Chuuni speak for an aristocratic girl with a femdom fetish
The best kind of girl imaginable

This would've never happened. IIRC Tokiomi made the decision to adopt Sakura out of the family because her magic affinity/nature wasn't beneficial to his house.

>Matou Rin would be a dominant bitch
Rin is shown in one of the bad ends in the VN to not be able to handle what Sakura went through at all, at breaks down completely mentally after just 3 days worth.

That was an older Rin who had never experienced that before. As a Child she would have acclimatised to it.

>Rin would be absolutely broken, a lot of her willpower is an act and she always relies on the people around her. She'd have a poor match up against the worm pit.
THIS! Rin would be probably total doormat as Matou with only possibility becoming quiet kuudere if got healed by Shirou's care as Sakura did.
>Likewise Sakura would have a terrible match-up dealing with Kirei...
If above stated is truth, then Sakura would never even meet Kirei after being send to Clock Tower. And probably would first meet him as another participant of grail war. And not every got messed by Kirei.

More likely instead of being a doormat like Sakura she'd redirect her anger outwards. She wouldn't be the same as Sakura under the same circumstances.

Is Shirou's affinity towards nothingness/the void like Shiki?
Shirou bends and breaks the rules of his world with his magic and that is noted to be a trait of void.

Sakura wasn't a shell of a person. She adopted a personality and found people to spend time with as a means of coping. Our argument is that Rin would do the same, only the personality she adopts would be different because Rin's a different person to begin with.

No, his affinity is sword.

This. Kids can adjust to and accept an insane amount. I could never redo my childhood. I've been softened up too much by my attempts to live as easily as I can ever since.

That's actually impossible and within the realm of void.

Not original one.

Sakura breaks down and cries too, even long after her childhood (remember the street hug with Shirou?). Even tried to cut herself. But she kept going afterwards, because she had to.
It is unbelievable what humans can endure if they -have- to.

Sakura would be unlikable no matter what.

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So what is Kotomine saying there?

wrong.

We don't really see what Sakura was like before the Matous so it's hard to say what she would be like as an adult Sakura Tohsaka

That Sakura, and not the Shadow, is responsible for her actions since becoming dark Sakura.

Dark sakura is unironically more likable than gigacunt HF rin

Both her and Rin were equal in their potential and have top tier circuits.

I always feel like rinfags have read a different version of the VN

Rin is Average One so she's better by default. Sakura's element sucks without grail hax.

Sakura is way stronger against servants than rin

Her extremely rare imaginary element affinity was fucked up and changed to water by Zouken.

>Sakura's element sucks without grail hax.
See Lev and Trisha

IT was already several times confirmed that Sakura without influence of Matous is very much like Luvia.

Yes, actions such as only killing villains and wanting to sacrifice herself to save the world.

Remember Shinra from They Are my Noble Masters? That type of ojou-sama, kind and sweet to her loved ones, ruthless and malicious to her enemies.

I still can't see why Sakurafags keep calling Rin a bitch. She's the one who saves Shirou the most.

Is there full interview translated?

Apart from that post looking like bait, it makes perfect sense considering how Rin behaves in HF when she starts living in Shirou's house. The narrative just giving her a pat on the back just makes it more annoying.

The thing is that she is a bitch to her sister, not to his crush, self-insert kun

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Matou worm magic must be fucking amazing if it's able to give Rin tits.

kek

Any other changes?

>wanting to kill Sakura when she's causing deaths all over the town she's responsible for is being a bitch
>when she clearly struggles with it and bitches out every time except in MoS

I know rin loves sakura, that doesn't stop her from being a shit sister until she finally stopped being autistic at the end of HF

>clearly struggles with it
Did you read the same VN? It was basically Shirou who just gave her a pat on the back and claimed it was obvious she really cared about Sakura, when it wasn't obvious at all from that kind of behaviour. Even Sakura was somehow happy about that shit at times.

Rin telling Sakura she couldn't go into the dojo for Shirou's training was fine because she was a potential enemy, but even then she went overboard. Rin should've tried to distance herself from Sakura, occasionally stopping her when she overexerted herself too much while she thought about killing her. If this were the case I'd buy what people say about Rin's inner conflict, but then in Rin vs Sakura you see Rin has barely thought about actually killing her sister since she realizes she can't after all. Then the narrative decides to place the blame on Sakura, and Sakura somehow thinks she's to blame as well, fucking up the conclusion of her character arc and making the whole thing that much more annoying.

I wish we had at least gotten more bonding scenes like when Sakura calls her nee-chan while they cook.

Nothing beyond things directly related to sisters. So Fate route would have probably just minor change, but UBW and HF routes would be significantly different.

Source?

youtube.com/watch?v=vuneYZq6vFs

Putting aside how Sakura wasn't responsible for the deaths in the least, Rin didn't even know about her connection to the shadow yet when she started being a bitch. She decided to kill her over Rider being edgy and trying to Bloodfort the school against Sakura's wishes instead of just focusing on Rider.

There would be huge changes from the getgo. How would the prologue change, would the servants still be the same?

Archer would probably be very different upon having Matou Rin and Tohsaka Sakura around. Rider would probably be a different Greek servant, since they have different personalities.

Emiya is related to pendant not Rin, so he would be probably still summoned if Sakura would find it in Tohsakas house. So this would be simple matter of Master switch. On other hand Rider directly answered to Sakura, so if Master for Matous would be Rin, it would depend how much different persona would Matou Rin from Matou Sakura be.

oh so you're stupid

I would still love Rin, no matter what.

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It would have gone fairly poorly. Rin is a "fighter," whereas Sakura is a "survivor." This was already true when Sakura was adopted, which is why Rin was able to pursue Ryuunosuke, and Sakura was able to bear the worms.

Zouken wouldn't have put up with Rin always fighting back, and Sakura wouldn't have fought so hard when dealing with Kirei.

Also, if Rin were insistent on fighting back against Shinji, she wouldn't have given him Rider. Fate and UBW would have played out very differently if Rider's master was competent.

Heaven's Feel would have been even worse. The reason that Sakura was able to break free from Angra Mainyu's influence was that Rin's desire to protect her younger sister was stronger than her desire to be a good mage, and Sakura's admiration for her older sister was stronger than her desire for revenge.

If the older sister had been the Makiri Grail, both of them would have been fucked.

>what Sakura went through at all, at breaks down completely mentally after just 3 days worth.
Like the other guys said, it wasn't like Sakura didn't broke. Zouken mentions she cried for days until finally just gave up and accepted her fate.
And during most of FSN, the consequences of what happen to her, are still there.

Before the holy grail war, Rin struggles with her relationship with Sakura because she doesn't know what the boundaries are between herself and her former sister, and doesn't know how to grow close to Sakura without intruding on those boundaries. remember that there's a lot of political stuff with the Matous and the Tohsakas to consider, not to mention Rin feeling guilty about Sakura being abandoned by the family. Rin also has the problem that her image as an honor student is important to her insofar as it gives her cover as a mage.

With that said, all of Fate Stay Night exists because RIn cares about Sakura enough to save Shirou after he got the Gay Bulge shoved into him.

The worms didn't break her. The fact that it was Sakura doing it broke her.

>Rin was able to pursue Ryuunosuke
Filler. She faints without accomplishing anything and gets saved by Kariya in the LN.

It means you're getting worked into a shoot brother
It's usually 3 camps
1. They just like Sakura and nobody else. The kinds of people who are okay with the fact that Sakurafaces are the 2nd most reproduced thing in FGO and whaled for all of them
2. People who are extremists towards Tsunderes. I don't like em either but when they actually show the dere they're fine and people forget this
3. People who don't like UBW morally

>Zouken wouldn't have put up with Rin always fighting back
Zouken straight said that older sister would be better.

>With that said, all of Fate Stay Night exists because RIn cares about Sakura enough to save Shirou after he got the Gay Bulge shoved into him.
Rin saved Shirou, because had own feelings for him, not because Sakura.

Questionable. Her first thought after seeing it was him that was killed is about Sakura crying when she finds out.

Yeah, she's a tiny child at the time. But that doesn't change that she tried. Sakura wouldn't have tried, because she's a survivor, not a fighter.

That doesn't mean he would have been happy putting up with her shit. He doesn't really do his research. This dude thought Shirou was in regular contact with the Einzberns.

Not that user, while I agree that her main motivator was keeping Sakura happy, I think there was some selfishness in there as well. Can't escape the Emiya Bar.

Yeah it was both the main being Sakura. The 1st thing that shows up is "Sakura's face flashes in my mind. She will definitely cry." The 2nd is the high jump.

He said that when it was him that messed up her power, and hasn't correctly trained her since she was four, just experimenting on her. You should also note that when she herself went to Dilo for lessons, she blossomed. Zouken is the type to be a crappy teacher and say it's the kid's fault. You also forget that Rin was being taught even before Sakura was sent away, and has had a lesson plan from Tokiomi Kirei has ironically followed, while also teaching Rin Bajiquan, medical techniques, and even some Szechuan cuisine. When you compare that, Zouken taught nothing to Sakura and complained when he wants a person he basically had teach herself with no guide be competent at a graduate level.

I'll never understand this obsession to whitewash either Rin or Sakura. Yes they both have flaws which makes them actual characters. If you don't like their flaws then you don't really like the character.

I always interpreted this as him prefering Rin because Rin's elemental alignment was better suited to the Matou.
As if a little kid can do anything against Zouken, he'd just immobilize her with the worms or something if she was too annoying.

They have no souls

im going to need a source for this.

poster of this, i meant link. Im retarded.

Not really related but an user posted the translation of Apoc mats here

>As if a little kid can do anything against Zouken
That was my point, though. Sakura is more suited to deal with Zouken, because Rin would make it worse for herself by constantly trying to fight back.

Enjoy getting your dick eaten off by dickworms

>t. secondary

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The worms aren't on her pussy and she gets dewormed anyways

Aren't they though? They eat the uterus after all.

They move to her nerves and act as magical circuits

>uterus
Placenta. You know, the organ that regenerates for each pregnancy.

Placenta only develop during pregnancy. Do the worms cause one to grow then eat it?

The scene that mentioned it was talking about their effect on women in general. Speedreaders somehow interpreted that as them eating Sakura's womb and making her infertile.

>implying rinfags have read the VN

based

>gets saved by kariya
lol what could he do?

Several character materials and even Apocrypha mention that Sakura developed loud OHOHO!

How would Rin Matou be with based Wakame

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Imaginary number element is crazy actually.

Also Nasu said in the Q&A that the real reason why Tokiomi picked Rin was because he was able to teach her, with Sakura he had no idea about that magical attribute so he would have to get a personal tutor from the Clock Tower. In the long run, Rin was easier.

Can you post full that Q&A?

It's in chinese in weibo. Someone posted it here when the movie was released.

Repost it dammit.

Probably a stupid idea to ask here but I just finished Fate/Zero, everything about it was great but there's one thing I didn't understand. After the grail took Iri's form and Kiritsugu rejected the grail by "killing" Ilya and then Iri, her last words before dying were about cursing Kiritsugu. I know that It was just the grail using Iri's memories, ideals and emotions as a mask but It's still supposed to be as "real" as the original. Wasn't Iri supposed to follow Kiritsugu regardless of his path? Why did she snap and curse him like that?

Because Iri never really understood Kiritsugu's ideals (she even confesses it to Maiya) and he just killed their "daughter" in cold blood.

Oh alright, thanks a lot man. I thought about that too but I thought Iri at least understood Kiritsugu's habit of sacrificing so she would have expected everything, she was even ready to die for it herself, but I guess her being ready to die was less about sacrificing herself and more about giving back the life that she wasn't supposed to have to Kiritsugu.

I thought we were discussing what might happen if the Tohsaka sisters were swapped around.

We do.

Solomon's reality marble has to do with imaginary number so yeah its definitely insane

I'm almost certain the Sakura we'd get would be pretty much the parts of HA where she acts overconfident, I can see her being even more confident than Rin and trash talking everyone else much more.

But I always wondered if Rin would end up with a depressed character as Sakura did or this kind I can see her trash talking and physically abusing Shinji at school but getting raped by him at home getting incredibly frustrated while he does it. I also see her way more terrified of Zouken than Sakura ever was.

It would be interesting if we ever got a side story where this happens and different servants get summoned

My heart likes Sakura.

I don't think Shinji would be raping anybody in that version.

Heaven's Feel wouldn't be as horrible a scenario. Thanks to Sakura's Imaginary Numbers trait, she had an extremely good compatibility with Angra Mainyu which has a Void trait. That's really the core of why shit went so straight off the rails. Sakura is probably one of the most excellent vessels for All the World's Evil that you could ask for. It's honestly questionable whether an Average One like Rin would get anywhere near the same results. If Sakura's trait is basically "Nothing", then Rin's trait is "Everything", which is the polar opposite of Angra Mainyu.

Another issue would be their general aptitude as magi. Rin is an Average One, meaning she can pretty much do just about anything, so she'd basically be a "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-all" type. Sakura, on the other hand, is Imaginary Numbers, which means that she has no absolute affinity with any of the normal elements but she'd be able to do one thing that no one else could do. She'd be overall worse at normal magecraft than Rin, but she'd be able to do one thing that Rin can't do. She'd still be a way more competent magus than the likes of Shirou, but she wouldn't be able to have straight As across the board as Rin would.

Beyond that, intrinsic differences between Rin and Sakura did exist even before Sakura got sent off to the Matous, but it's hard to say how much they'd be affected by that since we really have no way to tell.

>Sakura will soon be sent to the Clock Tower to study since her element (Imaginary Number) is too rare thus she can't be taught at home.
Lev and Trisha have Imaginary Numbers. Lev's kind of a good man in general (when he's not burning humanity in a ritual because he's a good man) so he would be a good mentor if she gets him.

Rin would not hesitate blasting Shinji in that scenario, especially knowing Zouken doesn't care for the little shit.

Would Tohsaka Sakura fall in with Waver's entourage?

I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever that Rin would end up the dominant one.

Well, kind of. Solomon is a mage of the ages of gods, who has even different circuits in general and probably other elemental inclinations, but it has to do with the imaginary space yes. Among other things he could do. Summoning/evoking would be a good faculty for Sakura.

>If Sakura's trait is basically "Nothing", then Rin's trait is "Everything",
Well no, there are two imaginary elements: nothingness and hollow. Sakura is the latter, hollow, not nothingness. Other hollow elemental mages we know about are Trisha Fellows and Professor Lev.

The worms suck her mana. Sakura felt her body heavy and had difficulties to even breathe.

So the same thing that happened with Sakura.

It's "muh waifu is perfect and can do no wrong" mindset.

Hollow is still a far better fit for Angra Mainyu than Average One. Nothingness and Hollow are related. If it were Rin, you wouldn't get the same results. She wouldn't be able to produce a shadow that could eat Servants. That's inherently tied to Sakura's Imaginary Numbers. Its compatibility with Angra Mainyu was just too perfect. A Servant can easily beat a fireball or a rock golem, but the perfect fusion of Imaginary Numbers and All the World's Evil? That's the natural enemy of all Servants.

That said, it's stated in World Material that Rin's origin is one of the Imaginary Elements, so she may actually be more compatible than we know.

I don't even know how one could even fathom Rin being dominant in any way within the Matou family, where she'd be tossed into the worm pit daily.

She'd dominate Shinji but still be under Zouken.

Being tossed into the worms isn't something that leaves you ready for the rest of the day. Like the guy i replied to said, the worms drain magical energy too. This scenario just feels forced so that Rin can somewhat retain her attitude even after suffering such a traumatic life.

It’s a pro wrestling term, the babyface wrestlers are the heroes in the storylines and heel wrestlers are the villains

I dunno. She might become even scarier than Sakura in a way. In Nasu's stories, younger sisters are often pretty scary, but it's the older sisters who become truly terrifying. Sakura needed to be taken over by Angra Mainyu to become a threat. Kohaku tried to murder the entire Tohno family without any outside factors.

>Kohaku tried to murder the entire Tohno family without any outside factors.
Sure, but Makihisa had died, Akiha was favourable towards her because she felt bad about what she had endured, and she managed to manipulate SHIKI too. It's hardly a situation as hopeless as being tossed into a disgusting pit that drains your energy, where your biggest hurdle lives in your heart and your 'brother' is out to physically abuse you.

Basically, wanting to do such things and being able to carry them out is completely different.

Alright you have a point he'd get away with it for a while but Rin would snap and kill him a lot sooner than Sakura did.

Rin has power. She just needs to be broken in just the right ways. In Nasu's stories, the little sister usually has more raw power, but the older sister is often the one who really knows how to inflict pain.

Shinji, for instance, died painlessly in Sakura's route. But hypothetically, if it were Rin in the same position, he might have died in a more cruel and painful way.

What are you trying to say?

This is dumb. Just read the VN instead of using some silly theory about older/younger sister relationships in Nasu's writings. Sakura is clearly more sadistic than Rin. That's probably a product of her upbringing, of course, but there's no reason to think Rin would be more sadistic than Sakura under the same circumstances.

Yeah if she gets the dark grail treatment but I don't know if she'll be as compatible with the curse.

Sakura would grow to have a Luvia like personality without the trauma, and Luvia is FAR more dominant than Rin is. If anything Rin would be meeker after she breaks.

I'm getting a Sucy vibe from Tohsaka in that picture.

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Wait, I mean Rin. Tohsaka would be Sakura. I'm so used to calling Rin by her last name.

>I always interpreted this as him prefering Rin because Rin's elemental alignment was better suited to the Matou.

Nah, since Sakura if anything thrived with what Fate dealt her, but just needed the right teacher. Six months pass and she was able to find a random bishop who helped her out, that happens even outside of Hollow. That's why I liked her over Rin, she went out and found her own mentor, even when she by all rights should want to forsake magecraft if she was free.

But its logical why Zouken didn't bother to train her to be strong and give her the tools, because her potential would have killed him if she doesn't have shackles binding her. Rider taught her how to use barriers effectively and now she can make one with abilities that debilitate and trap people in a drunken haze. While Dilo helped her make her own mystic code. Zouken in Hollow must quake in his boots every day wondering when Sakura's patience will run out, so he gets by making wisecracks.

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It is stated in HA that Zouken and Shinji are terrified of Sakura

In apoc rin and Sakura stayed together, so it's different than OPs scenario

No, the only scenario where Sakura ended up like that was if she ended up adopted by the edelfedts. In fsn it's highly unlikely that that would end up happening.

No they didn't. Sakura went to Finland when she was adopted by the Edelfelts.

Why are mages such idiots? The devote themselves to finding Akasha without having any concept of what it means to find it or even if finding it is a desirable thing in the first place. At least Kiritsugu’s goal made sense as something worth sacrificing everything for.

Wizards have no sense of right and wrong.

Yeah i didn't finish reading the other post my bad. But as said I agree that if the roles were switch in FSN we wouldn't get someone like apoc sakura who was still raised by a good family. FSN sakura would be alone in the clock tower, maybe make a few friends, including luvia, but thats about it.

Dude read HA she starts showing strong hints of her true nature here.

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Tohsaka Sakura would likely fall in with Waver's little group, so she would likely get acquainted with Reines, Gray, Flat, Svin and the others. She wouldn't be alone.

Wonder if waver would get involved in the grail then. Once sakura gets the command seals maybe she'd ask him for advice about the war, perhaps even give her iskanders relic?

rin was also considered one of the top ten mages of all time

*100 in the clock tower

Wormsluts always use HA as a source as to why she's likeable, but reading it is exactly what made me dislike her. She's a vindictive and scheming asshole in peacetime, you'd have to be a hyper masochist to take her smug crap day in and day out

Shut up retard

Are you that guy who thought Shinji did nothing wrong in the diary scene?

the only thing sakura sucked was worm dick

You're fucking insane, there's nothing vindictive or scheming about her

> hyper masochist to take her smug crap day in and day out
Which is why she is perfect for Shirou.

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