Jojo

>Is there anyone nearly as wasted in Jojo?
You just posted a gif of him

>defying the inevitable
Bucciarti still died. They didn't defy shit.

This man, I unironically don't understand OPs problem. The idea behind it is that we all are slaves towards fate. We might be able to change our fate, but we can't escape destiny. What Araki emphasizes on though is that we should at least try to change fate and not just accept it.

You pretty much answered your own question.

Not even close to sandman, only a retard would uniromnically say that.

but he died after fighting for what he believed in. It's not nothing.

Sandman > Kakyoin

But Diavolo was punished for trying to resist his fate.

Kakyoin >Sandcunt

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Shit thats true. Maybe Araki just writes shit that seems cool or poetic to him at a given moment and everybody is just overthinking a series that has already established that fun and rule of cool are its guiding factors

Kakyoin
>gets several fights, has many moments to bond with the rest of the crew, dies like a hero
Shitman
>gets a backstory in the beggining chapter, pretty much dissapears untill his fight where he dies like jobber, not to mention his stand is discount echoes

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I've never seen people suggest what else Sandman would do, though. He wanted to help his tribe, the President of the United States offered him the money to do so, what else would he do? He was always a rival to Johnny/Gyro.

His death actually serves for Johnny to realize that the pursuit for the corpse isn't worth it, and that even 'good' people will become his enemy over it.

He thought he controlled fate, not that he was avoiding it. And he was punished for not seeking the truth, not fighting fate.

Diavolo wasn't punished for resisting his fate he was punished for being a murderous tyrant.

>He thought he controlled fate, not that he was avoiding it.
That's the exact same thing. He can see the future and avoid the fate that he sees with King Crimson, which means he can control his fate.

Sandman's stand is just a shittier version of Koichi's stand.

what is fate? Is it preordained or do we change it?

It's just too deep for you bro

Kouichi's is the shittier stand. In A Silent Way is utilized perfectly in the time we see it while all Coochie does after getting his third stupid power up is spam the same gravity move

>You can change your fate but you can't change your destiny.

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Sandman wouldn't do shit without Diego's help

Still more fun to read

Eh It's subjective, I liked Koichi's fights more. Seems lazy of araki to just reuse a stand

He won't die even if you kill him

>Seems lazy of araki to just reuse a stand
half of the stands in part 5 are slightly altered part 3 stands

Part 7 is a reboot so it's fine with me.

yes, I dislike that too, but sandman and AU Diego are way more obvious

Smoothbrain post

Do you have any fact to back that up?
PocoLoco. I really thought he was going to appear and help in a way in at least one fight.

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Diavolo got punished because he fucked with Giorno user

Tomb of the Boom are 2/3 reused (Bastet and Metallica)

at least part 5 fights have a spin on them, for example the train fight is Allesi's stand but reversed and with a partner. Reusing stands like araki did in 7 is lazy

Which ones? I am curious.

Boom boom family was so shit I forgot about them entirely.

There's not much to say other that you're right. It was written to be vague and contradictory. Whenever an author introduces fate in a story they will always write it as vague and contradictory, they will always say at first that fate can't be changed and then they'll make characters change it. Oherwise the author wouldn't be able to use it make suspense and plot twists, which is what authors need to keep an audience interested. The only thing unusual is that Araki insisted that Bruno's death was modifiable but not avoidable, that Bruno was still fated to die but in another time and place. There is some dispute among fans that Rolling Stone may be related to Bruno's zombiefication. The general idea is that Bruno defied when he should have died and therefore went on further than normal as a walking corpse, either through the power of Rolling Stone after being damaged by Mista or as a metaphor of defying fate to the last second. It is not a solid theory but it would give a solid purpose to the Sleeping Slave arc, to tie up one of the mystery of Part 5.

WHAT fights? Koichi is so underused. You mean the first fight he uses Act II and that's it?

Because Act III is completely different from previous acts and Sandman's stand. He just freezes people and never does anything with his old powers. So, nop.

Guilt lock fight was pretty neat

I wish Koichi's final stand had a different condition tied to increasing weight other than distance. Arakia wrote a lot of colorful powers with bizarre conditions for activating but he didn't do that for Koichi and the result is that he can't really have interesting battles anymore.

And then koichi's interesting powers are never used again.

Maybe becayse Koichi is a boring dwarf? Stands are related to the will and personality of the user.

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I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul

I got spoiler about sandman in this thread casually when today was the day I started part 7

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>Shitting on the only character with a proper development besides Rohan

He was a weird dwarf before and his previous word-based power was abstract and complex, that's the weird part.

It was good mostly due to Koichi’s character development

wtf does Sleeping Slave even mean?

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Sex Pistols = Emperor
White Album = Horus
Rolling Stones and Epitaph = Tohth
Metallica = High Priestess + Bastet
Grateful Dead = the exact opposite of Sethan

The more interesting question to me is then:
Why does Araki create part 5, a story about a group of people who, enraptured by another person's dream, embark on a journey to realize said dream and ultimately after many sacrifices manage to do something before thought impossible, only to then end part 6 in a way that makes all of the protagonists' struggles completely inconsequential by literally ending the universe?

Depth>>Development
retard

Maybe if you weren't a nonanimepicposter and more of a mangareader you wouldnt be bitching.
I got spoiler about Gyro's death but I still felt it.
Nah, man. I love Koichi. Sure, he ends up being more of a standing up guy and he can stand his ground but it's a fact that he's not a betting man, he just wants a simple and safe life. That's why he settles for Yukako. That's why his stand is not going to give you chills. It gets the job done but that's it.
Growing up makes that to people. You let some things behind in order to move forward.

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>Do you have any fact to back that up?
An user in another thread previously pointed out that Sandman(?) appears from behind two objects in the scene when he becomes Dio's subordinate, which is how the president teleport things between dimensions.

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It's also interesting that Dio gains an improved sense of smell from dinosaur powers but he couldn't smell the person hiding right next to him.

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It's not completely flat on the ground though and Valentine is too far away.

imagine walking to school with koichi and quickly grabbing his small soft hand and pushing your lit cigarette into it and holding it there for about 5 seconds while hes screaming and crying

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I get the general impression that Araki was really burned out on Jojo during part 6 and wanted to end the series there, and then he regained his passion for Jojo while working on part 7.

I'd love to kick Koichi Hirose in the head. Just take a few steps run up then catch him with the full force of my steel capped toe under his chin, send that little faggot flying through the air.
As he lies on the floor, coughing and wheezing and chocking on his own blood, his jaw a mangled mess of bones detached from the rest of his skull, I stand over him and laugh wickedly. He looks up at me in fear and pain, his eyes searching, begging me for mercy. He finds none. I raise my boot then stomp down, splitting his skull like a melon and finally ending his pathetic life.

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You just like 7 the most you mong, early 7 is worse than anything in 6

I, for one, would like to stick my thumbs into Koichi Hirose's eye sockets. I want to feel his ocular organs squish into a bloody, viscous pulp beneath the soft, yielding flesh of my fingertips. I want to hear his screams of absolute terror and pain as he realizes he'll never see again.
Then, I would remove my thumbs from his eyesockets, giving him a brief respite as I grabbed a pair of barbeque tongs and a dull butterknife. with the tongs I would pluck out his ruined eyeballs and sever the optic nerves with the butter knife. at this point I would already have a hot plate going with a buttered pan ready to crudely sautee Warwick's juicy macula. As they sizzled in the pan, he would smell them, and after having been starved for days on end, he might even have the nerve to comment about how good whatever I was cooking smelled - not being able to see what it was, of course.
"Here, try some." I would offer, giving him a heaping spoonful of the fried, well-seasoned sight-flesh. He would gobble it down eagerly, begging for more like the deformed goblin he was, still not aware of what he was eating. I would feed him the rest, and only after he had eaten it all would I tell him what it truly was.
As he screamed in horror and retched, I would put my thumbs into his empty eyesockets for the last time. I would drive them deep, deep into his empty ocular cavities, until I broke through the fragile bone and began to push my fingers into his brain. Slowly, his musical shrieking of pain and terror would abate as his brain becomes too damaged to operate his vocal cords, let alone comprehend what is happening to him.
At this point, I place my massive, throbbing erection in front of his vegetative face and begin to powerfuck his eye sockets. In and out, in and out, over and over, until his brains are nothing more than a mess of dead cells and tangled dendrites. As I climaxed, I would push myself balls deep into his skull, seed mixing with ruined neurons in a perverse cocktail.

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absolutely based, user.
imagine if when koichis head was trapped between the gate keicho started dropping bricks and rocks on his head from the 2nd floor window

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>too far away
Objects used by D4C to cross dimension can then be used by everybody else to do so, that feature was abused by Diego himself twice

Early 7 was amazing compared to 6.

It's not completely flat on the ground but it's probably enough for Valentine's power that it partially touches the ground. The more you look at the door in other panels the more it seems blatantly impossible that someone could have hidden there from Dio undetected. It's a good point that the President was a bit far, he was on the roof just an instant before Soundman is revealed, but he had time to climb halfway down between 3-4 panels. It's not the first time that stand ranges are not portrayed properly before a stand's final reveal.

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Not really, it was ugly as sin, and the early fights such as mrs robinson, boom boom family and the crane kid are some of the worst in the series

Imagine seeing Koichi Hirose shopping at the mall before Christmas. You run into him on the third floor, carrying dozens of bags that are far too heavy for his stubby little arms and puny fingers. He's struggling, sweat is pouring off his deformed little forehead as he tries to get his gifts home for his family. You feel the rage build up in you, looking at this decrepit little gnome pulling all these bags, making little grunts in his stupid little high pitched voice. Unconsciously, you find yourself striding towards him, with venomous intent in your eyes. He catches sight of you approaching, his tiny freak head lifts slightly, you can see the fear in his eyes like a zebra looking at a lion on the hunt. In an instant, you grab him by his tiny legs and begin walking over to the balcony that overlooks the mall floor, Koichi too weak to fight back, only whimpering. Three floors up is a good height to a human being, but to this imp? It might as well be the Grand Canyon. You lift him over your head like a sack of potatoes and you toss the little midge over the edge, and you hear his goofy high pitched yelps as he falls. He smacks his head off a cupcake kiosk, his tiny brains splattered all over a group of Chinese tourists like a Jackson Pollock painting, the elves from the nearby Santa Claus chair rush over, thinking one of their own has committed suicide again. In this moment, you feel triumph.

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>it was ugly as sin

Did you read the colored version idiot

That just seems like a typical Araki moment to me. He's always doing weird stuff like that. When the guy shows himself, it isn't even revealed that it was Sandman until way later, he might not have even decided who the character was going to be yet. And considering how D4C was in its introduction, I seriously doubt that he even came up with the idea of bringing in people from other universes during the time this arc was being made.

I read both. The art improves a lot later on. Even if it looked great it doesn't excuse the wank fights and horse races

If you stretch it like this then everything is the same.

Early part 7 only suffered from bad villains, everything else was 10/10, the art, the protagonist design, the setting. Araki fixed the villain problem pretty quick. Boom Boom, Mrs.Robinson, Oyecomova and Pork Pie Kids were meh but then Araki redeemed himself with Blackmore, Eleven Men, Ringo and Valentine.

Finally someone fucking said it
7 is overrated as hell

7 > 2 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 5

BASED

i get not rating unfinished 8, but where's 6
so far pretty based

7>4>6=5>2>1>3

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I've unironically never bothered with 6 so I can't rank it. I've heard so much shit about it and I believe it's got to the point where my bias will overshadow what qualities it actually has.

Mista broke the stone, which changed fate from Bruno dying to Bruno, Abbachio and Narancia dying. But it's not as simple as that: like the sculptor reflects at the end, Mista did it out of loyalty and friendship to Bruno, and that this makes the group sleeping slaves who will eventually wake up and defy fate. In concrete terms, if Mista and the group in general hadn't been so loyal to each other, he wouldn't have broken the stone, and Bruno would have died when Diavolo punched him through the chest. The group would continue serving Diavolo, or disband, and Diavolo would remain the Boss, undefeated. But because Bruno's fate was changed, the group is now fated to defeat the incarnation of fate itself, Diavolo, even if some of them die in the process. TL;DR: Bruno's fate in the stone changed because the gang is so loyal to each other. The resulting fate has Bruno, Abbachio and Narancia dying, but also Diavolo being defeated and the gang no longer being his slaves.

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>falling for memes
yikes dude, it's way better than people say, definitely a lot better than 5
switch 3 and 5,4 and 7, and you've got my taste

6>2>1>5>4>3

That makes no sense because they all willingly chose to join Diavolo's organization

My biggest disappointment with the anime adaptation of 5 is that the OPs got progressively worse, something I don't feel has ever happened before. Fighting Gold was fucking God Tier, nothing after came close to it.

they chose it because it was their fate

>Fighting Gold was fucking God Tier
pleb, no ears, none at all, none in the least

Part 5 had no good songs.

Nay thou. Fighting Gold was 5's best OP.

Great Days was the best Part 4 OP.

Bloody Stream is still the best overall.

Fighting Gold and Bloody Stream are both alright

but Crazy My Beat is the shit

No ears to be found, indeed it seems i have discovered an earless humanlike species in this thread

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Slurp my testicles.

Hmm, but knowing that you do not have ears how can i be sure you have any testicles?

Fighting Gold was kino. Should have stayed the OP the whole way through.

god I remember bursting out laughing at Dio's head turn here

It seems like not having ears is quite common in this thread. Indeed I pity thee, you have no ability to listen to music

You don't need ears to hear music.

speaking from experience?

Cringe.

Koichi have both

That's at least what I think, it's very strange that he suddenly goes "bro wypipo gave me that name stop calling me that" when in the first chapter he's called sandman by everyone in his tribe, not to mention that he went under that name for the race

That's just Araki changing his mind about things

Sometimes Araki change things about this characters after their introduction, like changing Anasui's gender, but it's generally related to their appearance or their powers. "Only white people call me sandman by mistake" when his sister calls him Sandman is really off the chart.

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That panel makes me think sandman originally was going to live up to his name and have The Fool 2.0

>Change destiny
The only one who did was Giorno at the end with the arrow, Diavolo didn't change shit, all the futures shown to him had him winning.

It wouldn't make sense if he was from another universe either, because that means that he's still called Sandman in his own world for no reason. I think it's more likely that Araki changed his mind about Sandman than to say that this was actually the effect of D4C's ability, especially since it wouldn't be introduced until much later and it wouldn't work this way anymore.

yes and the rest of the tribe though he acted like a white man

Will Yasuho die?

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jojolion has been pretty dark/disturbing so far, i hope it gets even worse so hopefully

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hopefully it implies that she will gets pumped by 4 balls and has a kid for him near the end of part 8

Valentine's dimensions are nearly identical to the base universe, he wouldn't be that different.

Lol no. Sandman was literally a low tier throwaway villain.

It's not about him accepting a deal but about him ending so quickly and not really having a role.

This. The only difference is the corpse.

I remember someone here saying that any fight from p7 is better than any in p2, I had a laugh at that after reading it.

Diego from one universe acquired a dinosaur stand and Diego from another universe got The World. Seems different enough for me.

That was because of the corpse. Sandman never got his stand from the corpse and he certainly didn't get his name from it.

What do you mena, that was because of the corpse? Alternate Diego had a special power without ever coming in contact with the corpse, which didn't exist in his world. Valentine said clearly that only one universe has the corpse but it seems to me like a stretch to come to the conclusion that Valentine can only access alternate universes that are exactly the same except for the lack of corpse. At the very least the other Diego he pulled should have been exactly the same as Diego used to be at the start of the race, completely powerless, but he had The World.

It was because of the corpse that the base world Diego had Scary Monsters. The corpse doesn't exist in the AUs, so AU Diego doesn't have Scary Monsters.

But Sandman's stand doesn't come from the corpse. So there is no reason to believe that an AU Sandman would have different powers (or a different name).

I understand perfectly well why Diego shouldn't have Scary Monster. That's exactly my argument. Alternate Diego didn't come in contact with the corpse, which didn't exist in his world, therefore he should be a powerless human, like original Diego used to be. However it's not the case. Alternate Diego had the World. He is slightly different than being original Diego except without encountering the corpse. Therefore Valentine can pull people from alternate universe that are slightly different, including a slightly different Sandman who is Soundman.

That's true.

He still managed to literally ignore death for as long as he could.

Your argument is flawed because you're assuming Diego wouldn't be able to have a stand in another universe. If Diego doesn't receive Scary Monsters from the corpse, it's possible that he could obtain The World through other methods. Sandman didn't get his stand from the corpse in any universe so there is no reason why the stands would be different.

>Your argument is flawed because you're assuming Diego wouldn't be able to have a stand in another universe.
That is exactly the opposite of my argument. I assume that he was able to have a stand in another universe. I mean I don't even assume it, we know it's true, we literally see it. He has a stand without encountering the corpse. He is Diego but slightly different.

Joseph vs Wamuu easily beats all of them.

>Alternate Diego didn't come in contact with the corpse, which didn't exist in his world, therefore he should be a powerless human, like original Diego used to be.
This is what I was talking about. You said "he should be a powerless human" and then used the fact that he wasn't to support the idea that Valentine can just go to other universes where things are different for no reason, which would then support the possibility that Soundman really is an AU Sandman and not a retcon.

It's shit.

Oh shut up Araki

So what did Jesus do in the other universes? Dig up a bunch of diamonds and bury them around North America?

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So is his sperm a mix of Josefumi and Kira, or is it each of their sperm in his four balls?

Bucciarati avoided dying early.
The point isn’t to defy the inevitable and hope the inevitable doesn’t happen, but to defy it for as long as possible because to give up is to be a fucking loser. For example: I’m going to inevitably die, but I’m going to live as long as I can since I like being alive, and maybe along the way I’ll have done something cool.

Unless you use your ability to skip time to live longer, in which case you are evil.

I mean he did use it to cripple Part Three's mc and sell drugs to kids

>he did use it to cripple Part Three's mc
To protect himself
>sell drugs to kids
Never happened

No words can describe how much I love and relate to these posts.

But the florist's daughter chose an easy fast way out and that actually ended up saving her father's life, completely contradicting whatever point SS was trying to make. Just accept that Araki was winging it the entire way and then tried to justify all the bullshit at the end by retrofitting some contradicting nebulous fatefaggotry. The only actual reason Bruno died is so that he can forcibly reward his mary sue protagonist to hijack the leader role at the end even tho he doesn't deserve it.

Actually the drug dealers are the ones selling drugs to kids.

>the elves from the nearby Santa Claus chair rush over, thinking one of their own has committed suicide again

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>In concrete terms, if Mista and the group in general hadn't been so loyal to each other, he wouldn't have broken the stone, and Bruno would have been killed by the stone that day.
Fixed it for you.

I guess the same as in our universe, he just simply ascended to heaven after resuscitating

>I guess the same as in our universe
Based Christbro

Traitor's requiem is one of the best and was much better than fighting gold.

aye but i think eventually they might find a way to reverse what happened with josefumi and kira or they will just go with the
"good guy but with 2 souls" but unlike diavolo and doppio, "josuke" is good because he is both josefumi and kira as one person while diavolo is one bad guy and one guy with mental problems

pucci tried to follow what dio did but failed having a broken stand as a result, pucci a half horse compared to whole horse who was also dios subordinate but hol horse gave up the fight lmao

Josefumi and Kira are dead and will never come back.

equivalent exchange is more confusing than king crimson lmao

The pure raw unadulterated hatred this post contains is amazing

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>Zeppeli dying
>Spoiler

I feel your pain user, same boat except I started a few days ago. I don't know why I keep showing up in these threads before I'm caught up.

It's a Japanese thing. Nips are fatalists, they believe in karma and all that shit but at the same time they believe in enduring the trials no matter how hard they are. The free will is on how to deal with a terrible fate but suffering is pretty much ineludible. Arguably Japan could survive to so many disasters because Zen Buddhism praise endurance and view pain as essential for reaching enlightment. Or maybe it was Japan who changed Buddhism to make it fit to its fatalistic views.

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They also seem to believe that drugs are worse than murder

What's the history on Japan going full retard when it comes to drugs?

>You said "he should be a powerless human"
And he should. He should be powerless, if he was exactly Diego without encountering the corpse, who was powerless without encountering the corpse. But he is not powerless. Of course I will use the fact that he is not powerless as evidence that he is a slightly different Diego.

But in a world without the Holy Corpse, there's room for him to have gained The World through other means. Because Diego was involved with the corpse in the base universe, there's room for his AU counterpart to be different due to the lack of the corpse.

This same logic can't apply to Sandman.

part 5 is being a slave to fate

part 6 is changing fate

part 5: trish is just fine growing up without a father
part 6: girls without dads are damaged goods
wtf?

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*Florida hapas without dads are damaged goods

Jolyne was raised by a mother who was passive generic nip who brushed off her poor behavior on top of having a father who didn't give a shit. Jotaro screwed Jolyne over by having shit taste and being an asshole. Diavolo at least nutted in a good woman who was a good mom.

>molests her daughter every night
>good mom

Wasn't Jolyne's mother white?

Tho Jotaro prefers submissive women either way

>Jolyne was raised by a mother who was passive generic nip
I thought her mother was white.

Trish was not just fine.

>a father who didn't give a shit
We know why Jotaro left and even Jolyne doesn't blame him anymore

That is indeed how it works. Diego and Diego?

cringe opinion

>Diego and Diego?
Exactly. They were the same person with the same name.

would anyone else wish bruno and trish had ended up together? seemed that both loved each other a lot and looked after each other, trish seemed quite interested in him, too bad she fell in love with someone who was destined to die

jojo is a cruel thing

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I don't think so, they only knew each other for less than a week and barely said anything to each other.

>seemed that both loved each other a lot and looked after each other, trish seemed quite interested in him

What manga are you reading?

>seemed that both loved each other a lot and looked after each other

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bruno died because it was his fate to be a waifufag, giorno had it fucking sorted for the assassination too

No. Do you also believe Josuke went back in time to save himself?

I think part 6 is more about wanting to be free. Jolyne wanted to be free of prision. Hermes wanted to be free of her guilt/revenge. FF wanted to be free of being an animal. Weather wanted to be free of live. Anasui wants to be free of having a dark heart (aka wants to bang Jolyne). Pucci wanted to be free of destiny. The Dio’ sons wanted to be free of being scumbags. Is that or Araki wanted to make a story about daddy’s issues

>Is that or Araki wanted to make a story about daddy’s issues
thats part 7

I have to read it yet, first gotta finish the part 2 rewatch

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>But in a world without the Holy Corpse, there's room for him to have gained The World through other means.
If there is room for Diego to be different then there is room for Sandman to be different. The second there is room for anything, that means Valentine is pulling a slightly different person.
>This same logic can't apply to Sandman.
I see no argument to the contrary but if you're just going to repeat with every post that it's true then I won't pursue this conversation any longer.

yeah i think 'free from fate' would have been better

In a Silent Way is a god tier arc and one of the best moments for Johnny.

>If there is room for Diego to be different then there is room for Sandman to be different.
There isn't, because Sandman's stand is not tied to the corpse.

>Forgetting Okuyasu
Found the retard

Because you're retarded

I was in the same boat but it's decently better than you think
Aside from big hiccups like having the worst stand fight in the series run, it's enjoyable for Jolyne herself.

It's an Asian thing in general because the Opiums war and China becoming addicted to opium in mass

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

This, people forget RS is an enemy Stand and is attacking Bruno.
The ability goes
>Hey man, you're gonna die in a couple of weeks or so, better an hero right now, innit? Okay I'll help you out.
Scolippi is a faggot and Mista had to destroy RS or kill him.

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IMO Gyro being all cryptic on Johnny with their lives on the line was kinda out of line when the two previous arcs have him more immature (trying to one up Diego, getting shittalked by Ringo)
The faceoff with Soundman is great though

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This post needs to be immortalized

Dont worry about it man, Its just one small spoiler in a part full of great shit
abandon thread now and dont come back until you're done with part 7

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Because Gyro respects his family traditions.

Visuals wise? Sure. But Traitor's Requiem is the better song. I just wish the Diavolo edit hadn't been a shittier version of Dio's OP

Where can i torrent vol.7 of Golden Wind BD? It's not on nyaa

BASED

The point is that, by everyone else resisting their fate, Giorno was given the ability to actually defy it. Of course, since Epitaph is a perfect predictor of fate (you can debate whether or not Diavolo interprets correctly, but the fact is that it always shows what is fated to happen), Giorno was the only one to defy fate by defying Epitaph. The whole thing is like absurdism except it's rewarded by opening a brighter future for the greater good and actually paving the way to change fate. Bruno and the other two who died persisted despite their fates (albeit they didn't know about their fates) and thus elevated Giorno to finally overcome it.