While I understand Saber is the most popular heroine, I truly do not believe that the F/SN visual novel would have been the massive hit that it was if Shirou and Archer weren't executed as well as they were. Without the key fundamentals of their respective characters tying into the themes of FSN, the story wouldn't have been as well-remembered and enjoyed.
Change my mind
>Change my mind
Why would I? You're both right and correct.
Bump
Does anyone else feel that miyu-verse Shirou feels cheap and shallow compared to fsn Shirou,but to be fair all of prisma feels like a bad fanfiction
That's all the spinoffs. I think Prisma is probably the best executed out of all of them though
>miyu-verse Shirou feels cheap and shallow
He's Shirou but without the focus on him, just the cool bits so probably
Agreed. Ilya aside, none of the heroines are really as interesting as our Main Man himself.
Fate Shirou: doesn't ever give up on ideal.
UBW: tempers ideal to be less self sacrificing.
HF: Gives up on ideal to save Sakura, still wants to save people though.
Miyuverse: LOL FUCK EVERYONE ELSE AND FUCK HEROES OF JUSTICE I'M GOING TO END THE ENTIRE WORLD! (please note, with how timeline pruning works, Miyu would probably be erased anyway)
Hmm
While the vn was popular it has only become a huge hit after the anime adaptations and gatchashit which butchered the original story.
>While the vn was popular it has only become a huge hit after the anime adaptations and gatchashit which greatly improved on the original story.
ftfy
Well, yeah. It's Shirou's story first and everything else second.
Poor quality bait like this brings a smile to my face.
>cheap and shallow
Just as shallow as HF Shirou to me. They have exactly the same motivation. The only difference is that one of them wants to protect his imouto and the other one - his girlfriend
shirou is by far the most interesting thing in the whole franchise
>the most interesting thing in the whole franchise
Nah, he is good but the most interesting thing is definitely Tosaka's defenseless anus
I know you're trolling but people really believe this shit
My point is more there are many other plot VNs out there that have the MC's story first but they aren't executed as well as FSN does to make it work.
>none of the heroines are really as interesting as our Main Man himself.
If we apply the known truth that Kirei is best girl, I suggest you'd have to rethink this statement desu
Hes basically a shallower hf shirou due to not as much development and shirouwanking to make him look cool.
>only became a huge hit after
You literally can't be more factually wrong
If you're actually braindead enough to think FGO retcons anything in FSN directly that wasn't already tampered with heavily in Extra/CCC/Proto/Camelotwank mats I can understand thinking like this because you must be missing a screw or two
I legit don't get what people think was fucked with beyond the "servants don't remember" shit. Which no shit that's gonna change; the moment you expand beyond a standalone story you don't wanna trap yourself with things like that and lock yourself out of potentially cool ideas.
>Extra
Shit
>CCC
Also Extra, also shit.
>Proto
Bad
>Camelotwank mats
Beyond shit
Servants were a fucking mistake.
>Servants were a fucking mistake.
Almost like humans were the best Fate characters all along
Based
Archer is the best character though.
He's a great character mainly because of his interactions with Shirou though.
Realistically, how are you supposed to react if you meet yourself from the future and they're a huge asshole and keep trying to kill you?
Still counts, he manages to be on par with Kotomine when it comes to being a fun character.
This is some lazy and obvious bait, but
>mfw there are people in the world who actually believe this
>mfw friends with people who actually believe this
>mfw two of them self-insert as Gudao and constantly waifu post
Please help.
>'Realistically'
>'Your futur self is trying to kill you'
>in the same sentence
Not sure about your choice of words there m8
Pretty sure we'd just get killed, considering he's making the first move. Except if you're Shirou
I would die satisfied if my future self was half as cool as Archer.
Shirou's story is so good because you see see his character and ideal fully developed, and with some outcomes. You even get to see why he ended up with that ideal, rather than just being your usual shounen protag with a childish dream. You also see him realise said dream is unatainable, but then you're also shown why he holds on to it, and when he does drop it, you also understand why he did it.
You even get to see one conclusion to said path, in Archer. The only thing missing would be one on which achieved some degree of success (even if said success just means doing enough good to be a peace with himself - though my headcanon says LE Shirou achieve that).
I get where you're coming from, but honestly I disagree. Like and mention he's a take on HF Shirou but there are changes to the Shirou's upbringing. There are two main changes in Shirou's upbringing in the Miyuverse: 1) Shirou is brought into magecraft and works alongside Kiritsugu so Shirou has no delusions about him like FSN Shirou did and 2) Shirou already has someone to latch onto in the form of Miyu.
Shirou faces his Seigi no Mikata crisis in a much less traumatic way than HF Shirou does (at least initially) which allows him to resolve his crisis more peacefully.
I feel like FSN Shirou could have had a very similar path laid out for him if Taiga had been taken early on when it was just him and Saber. People forget one of Shirou's darkest moments is him basically thinking he'd kill Saber and Rin both if they got Taiga hurt during their standoff with Caster.
>The only thing missing would be one on which achieved some degree of success
Isn't the whole point between Shirou, Archer and Kiritsugu that this is impossible?
Pretty much. He's doomed from the start
Archer technically accomplished his ideal though, just in the worst way possible.
How would Fate be different if Shirou was a young boy?
I'm sorry, Aachaa.
I know, which is why I also said:
>even if said success just means doing enough good to be a peace with himself
/ss/hirou Emiya.
>Cute shota Shirou learning how to cook
I'd watch it
Scenes with him, Rider and Sakura would be even better
Chaldea is a different summoning system than the Fuyuki Grail system, plus singularity F is explicitly an altered form of the grail war. Outside of that nothing gets butchered from fsn because it's an isolated timeline as opposed to FGO where any timeline can stick their toe in
nah Shirou is bland boring MC protagonist deku from my hero academia or some shit is better
no user thats weak bait you should say Kirito is better
>That "it's another timeline" excuse to milk a franchise
>'Don't worry guys, it's not related, it can't hurt how you see the original work!'
>Use a similar setting and the same characters
That's one the main reason why I dislike comics, keep that out of my chinese cartoons desu
There was an episode of that in Emiya Gohan. Why didn't you watch it, user?
Nobody's denying that it's an excuse to milk the franchise but multiple timelines is canon from the VN.
Waifuism was the least interesting part of the VN for me. I loved the world building, how magic works, how there is a hidden society with their own factions and goals and how all this was portrayed from the perspective of a broken young man. Getting a blowjob from King Arthur was just a bonus.
Let's not kid ourselves. Saber and Rin might be great characters, but even they cannot carry a 60+ hour-long story - of which they're not even the focus.
Shirou was the true reason for stay night's success. It's clear to anyone who's read that it's HIS story, and it lives and dies by his characterization, moments and arc.
That's actually a really good question.
Guess I'll watch it while I eat for the next few days
>the final battle in a long novel about famous heroes and magic is two physically and mentally broken humans beating the shit out of each other
I loved it.
Shirou is a fucking gary stu man... what the fuck you talking about?
>That "it's another timeline" excuse to milk a franchise
Not denying it, but that's been in effect since Extra
>'Don't worry guys, it's not related, it can't hurt how you see the original work!'
It only does if you let it like with Fate Zero
>Use a similar setting and the same characters
The setting is completely different with the main ties being servants and masters. The only OG servants that see screentime in their original form are hassan, gil and archer (archer being in side stories) with saber, medea, gil and cu getting altered forms expanding upon their characters. They take a back seat most of the time.
I mean, there's a reason he is one of the most requested characters in FGO. And in terms of popularity, he's only behind Saber, Kirei, and Archer. Not bad for a VN protagonist desu given they are usually non-entities.
>mfw two of them self-insert as Gudao
If you have friends who self insert into anything then it's time to leave.
Yeah, Fate's case about timelines is a bit complicated.
But you know what I meant
Maybe you should read the vn and not just watch the Deen anime.
>Not bad for a VN protagonist desu given they are usually non-entities.
That's a big part of my point too desu. I like a lot of VNs and it's not like all protagonists are bad but it's not really heard of to have a VN that gets popular with such a fore-fronted MC especially in 2004
Also I think it's more of a Shirou and Archer thing. FSN wouldn't be as interesting if Archer wasn't in the story. You need that part that shows the reality of what Shirou wants. And he'd have to be likable as well
I fully admit that while I love Rin, there is a reason people call UBW the Archer route. And just imagine Fate route without any of the Saber/Shirou dichotomy. Heck, Fate route is considered the least good route already even now
I really want a bigger epilogue of UBW True end though where Shirou starts looking more like Emiya
>I really want a bigger epilogue of UBW True end though where Shirou starts looking more like Emiya
Boo. UBW ending is more powerful by being ambiguous as to whether he will break free from Archer's fate by challenging the latter face on or not.
Well yea, Archer is Shirou's primary foil and motivation as he's the one who consistently challenges Shirou's ideals and sets him on his path. Even in Fate and HF, Archer plays a large role in Shirou's growth.
Fate: Archer unlocks Shirou's unused magical circuits and instills the concept of protection on him, which allowed him to project Caliburn against Berserker.
UBW: Kinda self explanatory but Shirou cheats 10 years of experience in just a few days by simply fighting Archer.
HF: Archer's arm is what allows him to fight Dark Berserker, Saber Alter, and Kirei.
Gary Stu's don't have like 40 bad endings where they die, get mindwiped, stuck in dolls, trapped in the grail with Angra Mainyu and other crazy shit with only 5 possible good endings one of them where he dies to save the girl he likes and she lives a lonely life waiting for him to return and other where his love interest goes back to her timeline to die.
Gary Stu's also aren't the weakest character in the novel, only getting by with luck and help from others.
Shirou, Archer, Kotomine and Illya are the pillars of F/SN's story
I'd add Rin as well when she's not being used as a romantic interest.
>Gary Stu
You don't know what that term means. Let's use Kirito from SAO for perspective, a textbook Gary Stu:
>just naturally good at everything and is able to beat everyone in his way at very beginning
vs
>Shirou is gored instantaneously in one of the routes
What's wrong with self-insertion?
Rin is so underappreciated outside of the romantic interest side. She's actually a great friend.
Technically nothing, but in terms of media, it creates unrealistic expectations on narratives that force authors to downgrade themselves in order to satisfy the needs of the many without offending them.
I'd say as far as romantic partners go Rin is the least well executed. Saber, Archer, Sakura, Shirou, and Kotomine are the best parts of Fate
>replying to obvious bait.
shiroubros, please.
>Sakura
No. And that's not me being a waifufag or hating Sakura. I just don't think she's something I would consider a "best part"
Having a magus who also goes to school and lives a relatively normal life was a great choice for a mentor character and exposition dumper. When Rin isn't portrayed as a typical tsundere mess she's great.
I'm gar for archer
Sometimes you have to reply to bait to keep the thread alive. A small sacrifice for the greater good.
Yeah as a Sakurafag I agree, she's not one of the pillars that makes the novel great.
Good point. I think I self insert as Shirou, but find it hard to do sometimes considering how much of a character he is on his own.
>FSN eroge autists actually believe that Shirou is a well-written character
Fate is carried by waifus and fights. Kirei and Illya are the only ones who are well-written.
As a whole no, in heaven's feel, yes. Sakura has like 3 of the best scenes in that entire route, even nasu mentioned she is the character with the most depth after Shirou
Help them.
>seething Rinfag
The entirety of HF is based around herdelicate. and complicated situation. HF is arguably the best route and wouldn't exist without her. She's an interesting character which makes her one of the best parts of the VN. I'm a Saberfag, full disclosure. Its just that FSN is great because of the romantic subplots between the girls, and as far as Rin goes there is hardly any of that. So saying ALL of the romantic subplots being good doesn't work so I specified the two that are good: Saber and Sakura
Yeah, because it misses the point that Shirou is just a normalfag without the SPECIFIC circumstances of the Fourth Holy Grail war fucking him up in the end, including getting Avalon installed on him after his ego collapsed once he witnessed the horrors there. It's not just a meme "Oh parents died, he has a tragic backstory now!" Hiroyama is a retard without any understanding of Shirou.
There is no way you are a sakurafag and somehow think sakura is less of a pillar in the novels than saber. Saber is for the fate route what Sakura is for Heaven's feel
He's better than Illia-verse Shirou who is just a shallow harem protagonist who happens to not be the main character.
Retarded gachanigger
It's really comfy, easily my favorite of the spinoff/side projects the VN has spawned.
I never said Saber was. My list is Shirou/Archer/Rin/Kotomine and Illya. Saber and Sakura are important for their respective routes but they aren't the core that makes FSN amazing.
>I think I self insert as Shirou
Lol no you don't
>Fate is carried by waifus and fights
Spoken truly like someone who only got into Fate from GO or one of the spinoffs
Oh, I agree with you then.
>lol no you don't
Why would I not? Look at this lucky fucking chad
>Saber and Sakura are important for their respective routes but they aren't the core that makes FSN amazing.
But Archer, Kirei, and Illya are only really interesting in one route each, too.
I'm glad we have reached an understanding *tips black keys*
>Lol no you don't
Funnily enough when I first watched FSN I was a retarded heronigger like him. Now I can only insert as Shinji though.
Kirei and Archer are interesting in all routes imo.
He's a fundamentally broken person with survivors guilt deeper than the grand canyon, it would take an incredibly specific kind of traumatized to really fit into his head in a non-superficial way.
>Now I can only insert as Shinji
Absolutely based
>Why would I not?
I'm gonna go ahead and guess because your parents aren't dead and/or you've never been mindbroken from survivor's guilt at a young age. Just a case though
I never understood self insertion heh but how could someone from a normal first world life ever relate to Shirou? At his core he's a broken man trying to follow an impossible ideal.
>it would take an incredibly specific kind of traumatized
Haha, not like I would know anything about that.
Probably because they see "average teenage boy fucks King Arthur, school idol and educated prostitute, I could be like that" and nothing else
What those three bring to the table is critical to the novel as a whole, even if they themselves as characters aren't as important in some routes.
None of the heroines, even illya, were particularly interesting in the original VN.
>saber: need to save my kingdom
>rin: i-im totally a magus!
>sakura: save me sempai!
>illya: tee-hee im gona kill you onii-chan!
They are by far the weakest aspect of the novel. The male characters are much better developed than any of the female ones.
Archer gets all his development in UBW, and Kirei gets all his in HF. How are they interesting outside of that? In a way that, say, Saber isn't?
It's more about what the characters represent and what they are to the overall story than just themselves as characters that makes them important.
>How are they interesting outside of that? In a way that, say, Saber isn't?
Well for one thing Saber basically gets rekt in every fight in UBW and isn't even in a fair amount of HF for most of which she's Altered though that is kind of interesting in it's own way
I think it's just their personalities are more enjoyable than Saber's no matter what route they are in.
Rin was great in all routes however she was kind of at her weakest in UBW when she's supposed to be a heroine, people call it the Archer route for a reason. She works a lot better as a guide and friend but then I'd just want to have Shirou get with her anyway.
I always thought it was interesting how Archer acts differently in every route, in Fate he's sort of like a mentor to Shirou, in UBW he takes the spotlight as the main servant of the route and tries to kill Shirou, and in HF he actually completely ignores Shirou and focuses on stopping Angra Mainyu, even going as far as to give up his arm to Shirou when he's about to die.
You sure about that? Kirei and Illya's best route is HF, and Sakura is more important there than they are.
If I had to pick the most important non-Shirou characters, I'd say Saber (Fate), Archer (UBW), and Sakura (HF). They're the ones who really put Shirou's ideals to the test and make him grow.
when will Jesus appear in this shit?
The thing about Sakura is that she is a complete non-entity in every route except HF, at least the other characters have some presence in the other routes. If HF didn't exist, most people probably wouldn't even know who Sakura is, while Kotomine and Illya would be recognizable for their roles in Fate and UBW.
Too divine
>If HF didn't exist, most people probably wouldn't even know who Sakura is, while Kotomine and Illya would be recognizable for their roles in Fate and UBW.
I don't think this is completely fair because that is completely intentional. It's not like they just didn't know how to write Sakura or anything, a big part of the story is how unimportant she seems in the first two routes
Yes, but her central importance in HF more than makes up for it. Kirei and Illya would be sort of recognizable because of Fate, but the reasons people like them and call them good characters all come in HF, where their development is mostly an interesting sideshow. For "what the characters represent and what they are to the overall story", I'd definitely say Saber/Archer/Sakura are the most important.
>tfw shinji is the wormslut poster and the rincontinence/oldmen/bisexual poster at the same time
im seeing a massive plothole here
I loved HF Archer. "Welp, time to give up on my goal and be a counter guardian again."
He doesn't seen to have survivors guilt, just admiration for Kerry
The power of little sisters.