So I decided to stop being a Fate secondary and watch a YouTube let's play of the visual novel...

Halfway through the place where the movie leaves off.

>halfway through
>talking about dialogue from the end of the route

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See

>starting in the middle of a route
Full retard.

But that's wrong you retard.

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Reading Shirou musing about stuff I've already seen along with some extra scenes is not something I feel like doing. I can LARP as a primary now while being a secondary for a large part of it. Besides I did read slightly before the Sakura transformation at the Black Saber vs Berserker fight.

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What do you think of Illya and Kirei in HF?

Embarrassing.

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Kirei is probably my favourite character. Ilya is fine I guess.

The holy grail is nothing more than a huge amount of magic power. A lifetime of mana that no mage would be able to exhaust no matter how many giga slave they could cast one after the other.
Corrupted or not, is not something with a will.
Sakura can loose control of this power cause she is a broken container. But she still move according to her own will. And Ultimately when she finally turn "dark" and defeat her grampa, she take FULL CONTROL of it.
There is other examples of her using "the shadow" at will in the VN usually to check and ear unnoticed on what Rin and Shirou are doing. Literally using it as a some kind of crystal ball.

Never forget.

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>So I decided to stop being a Fate secondary
>and watch a YouTube let's play of the visual novel
Top tier bait, but should seriously go read the VN secondary-kun

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>youtube
>this mean SFW
>Realta nua
You are worst than a secondary.

>he thinks I'm lying
Ask me any broad question from Dark Sakura appearing to Shirou turning retarded because of Archers arm after rescuing Illya

Don't you know that the MC of a VN is the self insertion of the player?
Shirou's dick, is the dick of all of us.

The guy just puts a bar over the nips and vagoo.

>Corrupted or not, is not something with a will.
Pic related. Also, the Rin and Shirou scene you're talking about is literally about Sakura being unable to shut out their discussion as the shadow forces her to hear it.

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Retard.

It is not a will. Not in the proper sense. Is just Angra's anger that corrupt it. And affect Sakura that the more she get filled as container the more fill this anger growing. But it's her that give a will to this power. Rin and Shirou keep guessing and kinda hoping that Sakura is possessed, that her grandpa have a too much strong grip over her. But ultimately is revealed that is all wishful thinking. And culminate in Sakura putting the grail's anger under submission, and literally squishing the old man like the worm he was.
It was Sakura all along.

t. Kirei

Dark Sakura is not the shadow, retard. Dark Sakura is insane but in control, while the shadow is Angra Mainyu possessing Sakura while she sleeps. If you had actually read the earlier parts of the route in the VN, you would know Sakura isn't even aware that the dreams are real until Gilgamesh attacks her.

That's not OP you're talking to.
t. actual OP
Also I saw the dream sequence just before Gilgamesh guts her.

Yeah, the sahdow affect her only when she sleep. But what it does is to answer at her need for mana. This is not Angra doing anything. This is not revenge. It's hunger for mana that she feel as a container and she usually fill with lust.
Is subconcious but is still Sakura.

I'm afraid is not just one.

Kill yourself and stop making these threads also why you cunts won't shut the fuck up or fucking tell him to fuck off

Learn to s*ge already jesus

Read the route better; author literally says she's not at fault and the point isn't her being at fault, Nasu says she's a sacrifice lead into a bad situation outside of her control

Dark Sakura isn't the "real her", its just an aspect of her that she's supressed for ten years while she was raped and tortured. Its her pent up feelings of hatred and bitterness at the world she's locked up. THe point of Kotomine's speech at that point wasn't that she was completely uncorrupted, it was that she had not become a second personality.

Since the game implied after Sakura became Dark Sakura that "Sakura is acting different, its like a personality inversion which half-breeds go through when they're consumed by their demon blood" only for Kotomine to shoot that down and say Sakura still has a sense of self and hasn't truly lost herself. However we see her perspective later in the route and its full of static, she is going insane, she can't control herself at the moment much, she's swallowed up a typhoon of souls that no heroic spirit could take within them and remain sane, by all rights her personality should have been erased when she took in all evils in the world, but her personality became so strong over the years that she preserved.

Something it sounds like you don't understand, the route makes it clear that Shadow is not Sakura, Sakura had no control of Shadow's actions each night at all. Kotomine and Zouken both say this, Sakura had no real control of Shadow. That wasn't Sakura consciously choosing to eat people, that was Angra Manyu in the womb reaching out each night to feed, in order to grow so it can be born. Sakura was asleep each time it happened so she had no control. Ilya says after you rescue her from the kidnapping is that part of the reason Sakura accepted Shadow into herself is to stop the random killings in town, because she could now consciously control it as Dark Sakura. After she accepted the darkness no one in town was killed.

KEKS

i'm not a sakurafag but illyachad.

she is not evil, but deep deep down has hatred for the world because of her upbrnging with makiri's.
Angra Mainyuu releases those deep feelings of hatred.

also
>watching a let's play of a fucking VN
holy fuck kill yourself

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Makes me wonder how Illya could win the Grail considering in most instances she gets bodied left and right by almost anybody not named Lancer.

>watch a YouTube let's play of the visual novel

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einzbern just wants to recover the third magic and illya has justeaze memories, so pretty sure just opening the grail using Illya and entering the swirl of root is enough

>Reading chuunige

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>watch a YouTube let's play of the visual novel.
JUST FUCKING DOWNLOAD IT FROM PIRATE BAY.
IT TAKES 10 MINUTES
YOU PRETTY MUCH OWN IT AFTER THAT
FUCK
HOLY SHIT

Pretty sure they need to kill the other servants in order to be somewhat close to the grail-As it'd be imcomplete without the servants but one dying and thus, unable to access the root.

Dark Sakura is Sakura completely possessed by Angra Mainyu mixed with her own madness brought on by years of abuse. She doesn't want to hurt anyone, but in her subconscious she always wanted Shinji and Zouken dead, so Angra Mainyu took advantage of that allowing him to fully possess Sakura. Sakura isn't evil. She was possessed by a literal demon. She's literally just like Regan MacNeil from The Exorcist.
youtu.be/bSxuXQCEC7M

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Here's a quote from the VN:
>"You should keep things simple. Like how that shadow isn't Sakura's subconscious. That's what Zouken said, but the shadow is attacking people because that's its nature. Sakura…It's not something she wished for."

Here's a quote from Nasu:
>Sakura is a symbol of loss and betrayal. It was important that people didn't perceive her as a villain, though, because we intended her to be more like a victim or sacrifice.

>game keeps repeating that the Shadow is eating people because Avenger needs mana in order to be born
>"no, the Shadow is doing it because of Sakura!"

Either work on your reading comprehension or stop basing your understanding of FSN on shitposts.

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you're right, it's explained in the VN that they use servants to leave a hole in the greater grail then when the servants are sucked back in they use that hole to enter the root

>I'm halfway through a youtube lets play and I already know the whole story
You are still a secondary I hope you know

You are absolutely not a primary, fuck you're worse than a secondary

Best girl

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why are you recommending realta nua, fucking stupid

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I keep telling that the shadow CLING on Sakura's needs.
It has no will on it's own aside the need for feeding. And can esaily use Sakura cause she is always needing mana.
Even the screens you post basically confirm it. "A swirl of power with a direction". Is not something able to make a plan. It just fuel her negative emotions.

>It has no will on it's own aside the need for feeding.
And, you know, being all evils of the world. Its very existence is centered around killing as many people as it can.

Nice job ignoring Illya's statement that the Avenger uses the Shadow to consume human lives in order to take form.

Yeah, feed and kill.
No strategy. No mindgames. No planning.
That's the holy grail: raw power. Angra just corrupted it. But even if corrupted is just raw power.
The avenger is like an embryo. It just feed from the umbilical chord. But that's all he can do or can think. Everything else from Sakura's sleepwalking is upon her. And even that is possible just cause she thinks it was only dreams.

Why is this like the only plot/character point I ever hear mentioned about this arc of this story? Like is it really 3 movies and a whole portion of a visual novel just to hyper analyze the metaphorical guilt or innocence of one major character or is it just typical weebs being overly obsessed with one particular aspect of a larger narrative again because it gets the most shitposting going? Either seems kind of plausible given what I know of these things

Sounds like a very common sort of sci-fi drama storyline where a character with a hidden dark side comes into contact with some evil device that corrupts and brings out their darker tendencies while giving them special powers to enable them and for some reason a fanbase makes it all into the stupidest weirdest big fucking deal possible. The more I learn about Fate, the more pretty standard if lengthy and repetitive in dialogue and restating it's core themes it seems to be and that's it's the fans that are all weird and twisted up about it all. Always making it into this big fucking overblown deal, when no really it's just something about as simple as every person has their flaws and demons as well as virtues and graces when viewed from a different sort of angle and that's about as complex as it ultimately gets while it's all getting settled in shonen style power battles where the rules are more or less made up as they go.

Avenger doesn't passively receive energy. It sends out the Shadow to actively feed and uses Sakura as a conduit because Zouken fucked up when he implanted the 4th Grail War grail into her and caused it not to work properly.

Except the fanbase if taken at face value is too fucking stupid to get it somehow and so figures no it must be this insanely complex threaded narrative. Sometimes I really wonder what must have gone so wrong in the average weeb lords development cycle to make the average one especially online turn out the way they have of late. Like just this profound mind-blowing ignorance from everything to human psychology and behavior to like how that can influence and counter-influence others.

Just like fucking dumb, horny and proud of it, what a fandom.....

It's a fairly major point, and it's ambiguous at first so speedreaders often misinterpret it. But after all is said and done, it's not all that complicated:
- The shadow is influenced by Sakura's subconscious, but that's it. Sakura never wanted it to kill all those people.
- Dark Sakura, on the other hand, actually is Sakura, and everything she did counts.

>Fate/stay night [Réalta Nua]
>Réalta Nua
lmao

still makes her evil

she's hot tho

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Yeah pretty much. There's nothing hard to figure out about Sakura or Dark Sakura. She gets possessed, but people are too retarded to understand that.

"Possessed" isn't quite the word for Dark Sakura, though. It's more like she's your best friend who got drunk and now you have to stop her from getting in a car and fucking someone up

>Dark Sakura, on the other hand, actually is Sakura
The Shadow is Angra Mainyu temporarily possessing an unconscious Sakura when she sleeps. Dark Sakura is Angra Mainyu completely possessing a conscious yet madness induced Sakura. When Sakura regained her sanity when Rin hugged her, Angra Mainyu began losing control, allowing Shirou to completely free Sakura using Rule Breaker.

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>Dark Sakura is just Sakura possessed
Well that's incredibly boring

Her mind and body were being controlled by malevolent spirit. That's EXACTLY what "possessed" means. The story of Heaven's Feel is literally The Exorcist.

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You're seriously telling me an abuse and rape victim who was abandoned by her own family can go through all of that and not come out harbouring some desire for revenge? This is why Funjino was done better. Sakura's boring and bland by comparison if she needs to be "possessed" to seek retribution.

NO!
Dark Sakura is Sakura in full control. She is not possessed at all. She fought it and won.

In fact in the ending inwhich she keep waiting for Shirou forever she is completely herself. She doesn't have any drive to mass murder like the avenger would like her to do.
As "Dark Sakura" she just want to get back at her sister, and for all the good reasons.

>entity that's the personification of evil and is able to drive Servants insane and turn them evil has fused to Sakura
>thinking that she's able to think rationally and isn't at all affected by it

*Fujino

But seriously. Can we not whitewash Sakura by spreading this false narrative that she wasn't in control? Considering all she went through some could consider the things she does actually *cathartic*. ust saying "it was Angra, the literal embodiment of evil" takes away all of that nuance and what some could view as *justification*.

Yes she carried that level of resentment and subconsciously wished for Shinji and Zouken to die, and Angra Mainyu took advantage of that and fed off her negative emotions and her growing insanity. When Shinji was about to rape her and threatened to tell Shirou about "how dirtily we fucked", Sakura subconsciously thought "I wish you would disappear". Angra Mainyu before was able to only control Sakura when she was unconscious. Because of that one subconscious thought, Angra Mainyu was able to take advantage of that and responded by killing Shinji. This drove Sakura completely mad since she thought she was responsible, and Angra Mainyu completely possessed her, creating Dark Sakura.

How is this so hard to understand?

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This. As much as Sakura hated and resented Shinji and Zouken, she doesn't want to hurt anyone and refused to take part in the Holy Grail War until she was dragged back into it.

shinji literallt tried to protect her by taking rider and how does she thank him? By going to cuddle with shirou

>false narrative that she wasn't in control
Except it's not false. She was unconscious when the Shadow devoured all those people and Servants, and she was insane when she was Dark Sakura. Both occurrences of which she we controlled by Angra Mainyu. SHE WAS POSSESSED.

shut up Bruce. we're on Yea Forums not Yea Forums

I wonder who could be behind this post...

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Shinji only took Rider because he wanted to be a Master and prove himself due to his massive inferiority complex due to being a failure of a mage. He hated Sakura because he was jealous of her aptitude as a mage.

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calm down, wakame

WTF is this shit? I'm a massive Sakurafag and I can tell you there's no way Sakura wasn't in control as Dark Sakura. She was influenced by Angra Mainyu, yes, but she absolutely wasn't "possessed" like the girl in The Exorcist. See pic related.
Think of it from the author's point of view. What is even the point of Dark Sakura if she's merely possessed? She needs to genuinely turn to the dark side in order to be dramatically redeemed by love.

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>As much as Sakura hated and resented Shinji and Zouken, she doesn't want to hurt anyone
Why? Because she's too good of a person because she blames herself above all else? I'm sorry, that victim complex isn't interesting, and it makes her an unbalanced heroine.

And that's boring because it takes all of her initiative away! Sakura would be and could be a great character if she were slowly being driven to the point where she actually hurts people, because SHE's been hurting for so long. That vengeance is justified, not just on Shinji and Zouken, or even Rin, but everyone who abandoned her and turned a blind eye to her in the first place.

Taking all of that initiative and responsibility from her when she has justification in favor of blaming it all on Angra waters her situation down. It stops feeling real when the "literal embodiment of sin and evil" can just be blamed for everything. It's a fucking cop out.

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She was possessed as The Shadow, but as Dark Sakura she was merged with Angra Mainyu due to her insanity.

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Except the emotions were still hers. They weren't made up. Can you prove she was always resisting and not doing all the shitty things she wanted? You can't.

except sakura has always been a better magus than hinji
if she wanted to she could've killed him and zouken wouldn't bat an eye
she's too kind to do that

It depends on how one defines evil. Also Kotomine's assertions are dubious at best, as he's not exactly the nicest or most righteous guy out there. It's true that she's not possessed, but I think calling her evil is taking it a bit too far.

As a matter of fact. That's it.
That's how much badass she is. It ALMOST destroyed her mind but she got full control over it and over herself.

And then Illya and Rin prove Kotomine wrong just the same very day.

>Trusting Kotomine

Dark Sakura is Sakura merged with Angra Mainyu. She's not possessed. Possessed Sakura is The Shadow. Kama is also Sakura possessed.

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Angra Manyuu fused with the holy grail. To host the holy grail means to host angra manyuu as well.
But she was not possessed. Angra was only able to influence her when she was asleep.
Plus Angra is basically pure hatred mixed with the holy grail that is just raw power.
It lack reason, is just a destructive force. If Sakura was under his control she would be nothing more than the embodiment of the shadow. She would just roam around mindlessly consuming everything in sight. The only thing Angra is able to do.

don't we have enough sakura servants at this point
jesus christ

at least that one is hot

>Implying Rider is not
Gay.

are you stupid

I mean Fate seems like it has one of those fractured fanbases where some people's entire purpose in life into adulthood is based around having their one particular interpretation of the text, themes, characters and story arcs of their favorite visual novels acknowledged and agreed upon by everyone possible and like any challenge to their exact interpretation is like an exact challenge to their reason for existence so it's not entirely that unsurprising. A lot of these popular VN/LN fanbases and their more notorious writers are just kind of fucked that way and make so much more of a lot of these things than was ever there to begin with in their head canon. Japan even derogatorily refers to this fan type as "believers" and doesn't really bother interacting directly with them as they're just known to be singularly focused, volatile and prone to making a scene if their views are even perceived as being threateend

"This is the best route, this is the best waifu, this is what they are as I define it and if you disgree then fucking fight me" and that's their daily discourse and they patrol the communities based around that sense of purpose. It seems borderline made for that purpose and type of fan with it's three semi-distinct routes approach even if not entirely intentionally. I mean god knows none of them seem to have much else going on in their life but for arguing over this shit.

I don't even follow Fate that closely and I'd swear they've used that exact plot point several times now based on what fans have professed and a quite a few popular light novels and visual novels seem to use it as well. The whole you thought I was just possessed by evil but really I had some form of control over myself and it was more of a symbiotic relationship twist. In fact I'm pretty sure anime and related source material has used similar sorts of twists for years now.

Lot of serious discussion over an entity possessing a waifu character whose depiction most of the time appears to be a pile of pure distilled evil sci-fi mud like that one fucking terrible episode of Star Trek The Next Generation. Only difference is nobody including even the cast ever tried to treat Skin of Evil like it was some sort of master stroke of social and character commentary.

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To the point of endlessly debating it too. Like no joke when it comes to seeing people talk about Heaven's Feel this one particular apparent sticking point of is this character evil or not (she's obviously traumatized and severely socially stunted upon closer examination, apparently like all the characters and the fanbase) is the sum total of whatever I've seen mentioned....unless it's the movie adaptation at which point it's activate ufoTABLE sakuga fellation mode and that becomes the sum total of what is discussed.

There's kind of a reason I've grown more and more skeptical that the online anime fanbase is actually a fraction of the size it appears to be, that the growth is all fudged and it's just a lot more bots in recent years set up to bounce shitposts off one another and Fate which has a popular mobile game and anime adaptations at the moment is one of the focuses. Like it just doesn't feel real.....any of the discourse.