Why is it considered "hypocritical" to want to help others?
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Because he doesn't actually care about that and is just mimicking Kiritsugu without thinking much about it.
Because kiritsugu (and by extension EMIYA's) form of heroism is an explicitly utilitarian one, that weighs up acts in terms of deaths vs lives, when in reality issues can be much more nuanced than that.
As we see in both kiritsugu's life and EMIYA's counter-guardian adventure, this doesn't end well for either of them.
So? People get saved either way. I'm sure the person who Shirou pulls out of a burning building would respond with "yeah I was about to thank you for saving my life until I learned that you were doing it out of a misplaced sense of survivors guilt, now go fuck yourself and dump me back into the flames you hypocrite!"
Not.
The point is, as said you can't save everyone, leading to contradictions.
Have you not watched fate zero's ending? A whole portion of that episode is about that.
>Because kiritsugu (and by extension EMIYA's) form of heroism is an explicitly utilitarian one, that weighs up acts in terms of deaths vs lives, when in reality issues can be much more nuanced than that.
I usually rail on edgelords that whine about hypocrisy because it is usually pointlessly misinterpreting a perfectly reasonable moral principle but Utilitarianism is complete bullshit.
I feel like the author going into the franchise with a >utilitarianism always bad type of personal philosophy made a big impact
Reminder that Kiritsugu being a KILL EM ALL edgelord was a retcon that Butcher added to make FZ more pointlessly edgy
Because Archer is a Nazi incel who never had sex.
How does it feel being a secondary and spreading lies?
I'm too lazy to look for a screen but there's a whole talk with Kirei about Kiritsugu's mindset with a cg about him.
You should save yourself first before saving others.
t. hasn't read the vn
Utilitarianism is the ethics of democracy. It's not comic/anime villain philosophy, it's everyday shit you probably don't even notice.
Not at all, a whole portion of HF paints a Kiritsugu far worse than the one Butcher did. If anything he was too safe at portraying Kiritsugu.
The difference is the state doing it against the idea of an individual doing it. When you become judge and executioner, you are nothing more than someone who thinks his opinion is better than everyone else, something that actually it's very anti-democratic.
>retards who pick kill Sakura then have the gall to say they like Ilya
care to develop
based retard
Why would anyone like Illya?
Can ilya's testimony of kiritsugu really be counted as reliable though? Almost all of her hatred for him stems from a sense of abandonment.
That is why the jury exists.
None of you understand Shirou at all. Shirou is someone who wants to "save everyone". But that's not possible. You can only save those whose side you're on. Shirou is fundamentally incapable of performing what he preaches.
An Ally of Justice cannot play dice with lived. Take UBW as an example. If they wanted to prevent the Grail from reaching maturity and killing everyone, then the most effective way to do so would be to kill Shinji. Every minute they let him live, they're risking countless lives. It worked out in this instant, but there will be many times in Shirou's future when he won't be able to save everyone. Even though his wish is to save everyone, he'll be forced to cut someone off to save the majority. Because if he doesn't, then even more people will die.
What would Kiritsugu do if he ever met Archer and learned what he actually ended up doing to the child he thought he had saved?
Eh. He seems fine now. Better off than Emiya "Happy birthday, btw do you regret being born?" Kiritsugu.
Half-baked deontology like that is a major reason I hate gungho busybody MCs like Shirou.
Because he ultimately wants people in danger so he can save them
I was mostly shitting on the "we are not so different" bullshit. Utilitarianism is good in moderation as long as it doesn't trump the concept of innocence and guilt. My two main issues are putting equal value of all life and the ends justify the means bullshit.
Kirei description of Kiritsugu (specially on the superhero/MoS ending) matches what Illya is saying perfectly
Shut up, Kirei
It's not. It's just Shirou's brand of it that's hypocritical.
He insists that he must keep living, because others died, he survived, and he must make up for that. But he also wants to throw his life away, if it means saving someone.
If Shirou saves his own life instead of another, he can save even more lives in the future. To save the most lives, he must occasionally value his own life more than others. But because his ideal of saving others before himself prevents him from as many others as possible.
This makes Shirou's desire to help others hypocritical.
Shirou isn't utilitarian. On a good route, he goes in trying to save everyone he can, but is forced to make a harsh decision at the last minute. When lives are on the line and the clock's ticking, inaction could mean more deaths than necessary. Either he cuts off the minority to save the majority, or no one gets saved and everyone dies. That's a "good" route.
On a bad route, he goes in expecting the worst and killing everyone to make sure the tragedy can't repeat again.
Anyone wouldnt?
It's not, Shirou and most TM characters have mental disorders.
It's still hypocrisy even if it results in a good thing you retard.
The hypocrisy is in Shirou's motivations, he doesn't help others because he's selfless he helps others because he feels like he owes the world and that his life holds no value, it's an obligation not a heroic gesture even though Shirou sees it as such.
After all you can't make a sacrifice if you're not offering anything of value and Shirou doesn't value his own life.
That was never the point. That isn't why his ideals are called a hypocrisy. Shirou's inability to value his own life has nothing to do with his ideal. That's his distortion, the part of him that's broken. Even if he threw away his ideal, that distortion would still remain.
Which mental disorders?
How has somebody not posted the real answer yet?:
Hypocrital is just a really dogshit translation for what f/sn was actually trying to convey. The kanji used all the way back in the original vn is 偽善, which is listed in just about every dictionary you can find as hypocrisy . the problem tha arrises here is that hypocrisy really doesn't fit well in the case of f/sn at all.
If you just break up the two kanji you get 偽(fake) 善 (good) which is the actually meaning they're trying to get across. Shirou is so focused on trying to save and help others because he's immensely fucked up inside and uses it as way to deal with and escape his own issues.
Do people know what hypocrisy means or why he's called a hypocrite, to start with?
You guys keep mistaking Shirou's distortion for his ideal. Those are two different things. His distortion was already there before he met Kiritsugu. He said so himself: for his body to live, his heart had to "die". Even if you take away his ideal, his distortion will always be there.
There are plenty of reasons why Shirou's logic is wrong, but this is the only one that contradicts his own goals.
Incorrectness is not hypocrisy.
>No one understands F/SN (except me)
Telling thread.
Eh hypocrisy works well enough but you need to have reading comprehension. And ideally an idea of where the word comes from. Shirou is very much a Hypocrite, he's an actor. Playing the role he think he should.
Sakura is beyond redemption though. That's why it's stupid.
His inability to value his own life isn't tied to his ideal, though. It's not his ideal's fault that he can't prioritize himself. He couldn't prioritize himself either way.
Fate Shirou is best Shirou
So?
The ideal itself is not a hypocrite, the person behind it is. The ideal contributes to that, because it contradicts his inability to value himself.
The "hypocrisy" is that he helps others, but never himself. He needs to value himself b/c of the people around him who love him and would hate it if he died.
Shirou is functionally a robot. He lost his "function" as a human in the fire. In order to survive, he needed to adopt a new function. The first thing he saw after he lost his function was Kiritsugu. Thus, he adopted Kiritsugu. He is a machine who can only follow the function of becoming a seigi no mikata. That said, he's still human. He's still able to find value in things other than his function. In Fate, he was tempted to abandon his function and run away with Saber, for instance.
See, even though the who seigi no mikata thing gives him a reason to live, it doesn't actually replace his sense of self-importance. Most people will prioritize themselves by instinct. With themselves is a "priority seat" upon which they themselves sit. For Shirou, that seat is empty. But in each route, that seat ends up being filled by someone. In Fate, it's Saber. In UBW, it's Rin. In HF, it's Sakura. There's probably also Taiga and Rin, but they're not heroines so who gives a fuck.
The inner conflict for Shirou in HF comes from the contradiction between his function and his priority seat. In Fate and UBW, there were no contradictions. The ones sitting in Shirou's priority seat supported his function and didn't oppose it at all. But in HF, following his function meant destroying the one sitting on his priority seat. That's why he was going through so many system errors. His two core programmings clashed. In the end, he had to throw away his function in order to protect his priority seat, but this fucked him up pretty bad.
Worst take I've seen on Yea Forums today
Fate Shirou probably doesn't turn out all that bad. His Unlimited Blade Works is a halfway cross between Archer's and UBW Shirou's, so he's probably Archer Lite.
UBW Shirou has Rin by his side, so he's probably okay.
Neither of them will be as bitter as Archer, especially since neither become Guardians. And even Archer gets better in the end.
At least they're not Alter.
sword autism
I like how the Lost Butterfly implied several times how MoS will lead Shirou to become Archer.
inb4 autistic VNfag screeching
MoS leads to something worse than Archer. Didn't you notice his eyes turning yellow?
Are you being ironic? His eyes in the dream were the same color.
She tortures Shirou to death in several endings, has Herc rape Saber and Rin to death, and spends the whole game trying to kill him. Illya doesnt deserve good things.
They were brighter than usual. Shirou's eyes don't glow.
>Shirou isn't utilitarian.
I know that he isn't. However like Kiritsugu, he is ignoring how his ideology is impossible to achieve. Kiritsugu was relying on a miracle from the grail while Shirou was simply ignoring how he could not save everyone. Because he idolizes Kiritsugu, becoming Kiritsugu is one way he could evolve his ideology. However by ignoring the flaw in ideology, he fell into it when he made that pact without knowing it.
I'm pretty sure F/Z painted Kerry in a way better light than the VN did actually
He knows from beginning that he can't save everyone and admits it.
Archer here doesn't make sense. He actually wants Shirou to stop being an hero. Just when he is gonna do that for the sake of Sakura, he warns him about not to stop wishing for being an hero.
Make your mind, faker.
He's not ignoring it. He never ignores it. He literally monologues about it at the beginning of the game. UBW True is all about how he knows that he can't save everyone, but he wants to try anyway.
Emiya can't truly denounce his ideals. In the end, he'll still try to save as many as he can.
Nah. It was great.
She's not. By that point she's not the one doing the deed. Not on purpose at least.
>all this over a cup
Why is archer so much less aggresive towards shirou in HF?
He's got bigger things to worry about
He's more passive just like in Fate route because he receives wound from Saber and can't act at full capacity. Also business with Shadow is more important to him than throwing a tantrum.
Shirou is a hypocrite because it's impossible to save others. People can only save themselves. And Shirou can't even manage to do that.
Because archer's goal is to either kill shirou or make him give up on being a hero of justice, so that he can create a time paradox and get removed from the throne. HF shirou gives up on being a hero of justice for sakura, so archer is happy to help him out after that point.
Plus his pre-programmed counter guardian instincts tell him that stopping angra mainyu from being born is far more important than his personal goal of stopping shirou.
In HF, he recognizes the shadow as too large a threat to ignore and puts aside his personal vendetta. That's his hypocrisy. Despite the fact that he criticizes Shirou for following his ideals, he can't actually ignore a legitimate threat to the populace.
>none of you understand Shirou at all
Ironic seeing how you're just rehashing what much of UBW is about. What you wrote is some of the most obvious things to write. They're so obvious that they're already in one of the routes.
Shirou doesn't really want to save everyone, he violates that couse countless of times. He aknowledges that it's childish and impossible to save everyone. He's seriously willing to kill Shinji and not save other children orphaned in the fire even if given a chance. He can kill even Kuzuki after he's been defeated. What he tries to preserve in UBW is the ideal of trying to save everyone and even Archer did realize that he cannot change his mind in that instance.
Ok but is there any evidence to suggest that in the HF timeline, EMIYA succesfully created his time paradox and stopped being a counter-guardian?
>get removed from the throne
He isn't on the throne. Counter-guardians make contracts with the world.
He's in the Throne. Making a contract with the world and becoming a Guardian puts you in the Throne.
What's so great about Heaven's Feel, anyway?
He didn't create paradox. HF Shirou is just very different from him so there's no point in even bothering.
No. Ironically the opposite is true, Nasu said in an interview that the Shirou of all three routes has a tiny-but-non-zero chance to eventually become EMIYA.
He wants to save everyone but also accepts that he can't. He gave Shinji many chances to surrender, but he never took any of them. The only other way to save the people in the school was to kill Shinji. He couldn't afford to hesitate.
It was the lightning, they were the same color. Even if, pigment loss is a gradual process. It's only natural they'd get lighter.
Emiya's eyes are grey. They're darker than Shirou's.
No, you dumb speedwatcher. He literally warned him not to give up on Sakura, because doing otherwise would result in Shirou becoming Archer.
>Even if, pigment loss is a gradual process.
Pretty much and he knows that. He always knew that. It kind of makes UBW a bit void as it actually avoids the more interesting questions of why does Shirou actually want to save people, but they're both involving the same person, so they both ultimately have the same blind spots and way of thinking.
They wouldn't get brighter.
>He's not ignoring it. He never ignores it. He literally monologues about it at the beginning of the game.
>He knows from beginning that he can't save everyone and admits it.
Isn't ignoring the right word? If there is a giant octopus in your living room and you talk about it but don't really do anything about it, what is that?
Because the throne os outside of time the chance of the paradox working is almost nil. Archer just want to blow some steam killing his younger, naiver self.
Lol what, he said to not give up being an hero. Did you watch the movie?
It's not a blind spot. He's aware of the flaws of his ideal. Shirou's thing is that he wants to try to save everyone he can. But when the clock is ticking and he has to mske a choice, he won't hesitate. The key point is to at least try. Even if you fail and you ha e to cut someone off this time around, you can still try again next time. It's hypocrisy, but it's one he's willing to accept.
Shirou's save everyone is really more of "I want to save some chick and fuck her!". If he really wanted to save everyone he wouldn't try to kill Gil in UBW. Nothing wrong with it, just makes him a liar.
He's not ignoring it. To ignore it would be to foolishly try to save everyone, fail and let everyone die. Shirou's path is to try to save everyone, but when it becomes apparent that that's not gonna work out, he'll reluctantly do what needs to be done without hesitation.
No, you're not following me. When I'm talking about blind spots I mean that they don't actually get to the core of their beings as in the actual motivations and reasons as to how they derived to their stances. It's a bit like watching a debate about religion, where both parties argue about laws of thermodynamics, when it actually has 0 relevance to their beliefs and the true roots of their possitions relate to how they were raised. It's probably a poor analogy, but it's the best I could muster. UBW ultimately feels like a pretty pointless and obvious duscussion about something that's ultimately irrelevant.
What are you talking about? It's relevant to Shirou. That's the whole point.
Isnt it his job to destroy threats to the populace?
He's not bound to that as a Servant in the Holy Grail War.
When summoned as servant he has free will.
Yet all the stances and conclusions were already spilled out and made beforehand. His knowledge of incapabality to execute his ideal has already been established. It's never been contested. It ultimately boils out to whether he does drops his ideal on behest of Archer or not, which is kind of moot if we talk about the actual efficacies of their ideologies, which is supposed to be the interesting part. The one thing is introduced was perhaps the distinction between the effect and the intent, but that's personally not that much.
He's Emiya Shirou. He'll always try to destroy threats to the population.
Even at his most jaded and bitter, after centuries of suffering killing and killing, he could not stop being himself. He could not stop beliving in the things he did.
This was his whole problem
Finally, I am free of this mortal plane.
You misunderstood the point of the conflict. To core issue is that the future Emiya Shirou who became a seigi no mikata came from the future to make his past self not become a seigi no mikata. That on its own is pretty compelling. Like imagine if your dream was to become a patissier, and then your future self shows up to tell you not to become a patissier, that you'd regret it.
Also, Emiya actually succeeds in becoming a seigi no mikata. That was never a question. Emiya Shirou succeeds Kiritsugu's dream and becomes a hero. If you're talking about efficacy, then Archer is the proof that he'll achieve his goals. The real issue is where following that path will lead him. On the contrary, if Shirou's goals to become a hero were impossible, there wouldn't even be a conflict to begin with.
Also, re-read the dialogue. Archer criticizes Shirou quite a bit, but he never directly criticizes the ideal itself.
Shirou's hypocrisy can be seen as:
>A terrorist takes hostages in the bank
Now normal people or the police would just shoot the terrorist, but for Shirou he would want to save the terrorist from the police too.
There, easy to understand why Shirou is a hypocrite.
Did you miss Shirou attempting to kill Shinji when he tried to melt the school in Bloodfort?
UBW Shirou would still throw himself in front of the trolley, the only difference between UBW and Fate Shirou is the self-awareness to recognize that what he's doing is idiotic even as he does it
He wants to spare Shinji there too. But the clock was ticking and Shirou gave him plenty of chances. Shinji refused to bite and if Shirou waited any longer people would die.
What was the biggest asspull:
>O MY CALIBURN
>O MY INDEPENDENT ACTION
>O MY NINE LIVES BLADE WORKS
How is independent action asspull when you can see it on Archer's status screen from the very first time it's available?
The argument is that he lasts far too long.
Two days.
It lasts 2 days in UBW just like his status screen says.
He's a fake ass nigga.
Archer is the proof that he totally fails in that instance. The path he's chosen doesn't really achieve what he desired as he never resolves or saves anyone. He just becomes a killer.
And as I wrote whether Shirou gets broken or not is not that interesting in relevance to his ideals. It wouldn't be too much of a strech to just create a proper route where he somehow abandons his ideals and lives a normal life and it would be pretty similar in what it tries to convey.
And Archer can't stop himself from becoming himself anyway from how the timelines work. The whole ordeal with Shirou is just something he wants to do as he's not really one to desire the grail's wish anyway.
And of course Archer still believes in the ideal. Heck, when asked what he would wish from the grail he immidiately went for the world peace.
I'm just mentioning an argument I've seen before, I didn't post the greentext with the comparison.
He just used his swag to bang a lot of bitches for mana transfer purposes.
There, just saved you a whole lot of salt
>Archer is the proof that he totally fails in that instance. The path he's chosen doesn't really achieve what he desired as he never resolves or saves anyone. He just becomes a killer.
He saved some people and made their life better as we see in Rin's dream. He just likes to deny it.
I thought that the problem was that he just took too much abuse and seemed to have too much magical energy, though as far as I recall we never get to see the full extent of his abilities.
What are you talking about? He saved many times more people than he killed. He says so himself. Archer states outright that he became a legitimate Ally of Justice. There was never any doubt of that. When he was executed by the people, he died satisfied. It's what came after that which he had an issue with.
And you seem to have completely missed Heaven's Feel.
Using Rho Aias was a bit of a stretch I feel
Maybe it's just animeonlys thinking it's asspull since UBW anime doesn't mention his independent action skill before day 14 where he's without master?
Well, that's the explanation people give when saying he should've lasted less. I read something about hunting wolves in the forest, too.
He basically consumed the souls of the animals in the forest to stay alive.
>Archer is literally killed by Gil
>fades away into mist
>Rin feels him go
>"yep archer is definitely dead"
>AKTSHUALLY HE ISN'T AND NOT ONLY IS HE NOT DEAD HE'S GOT ENOUGH MANA TO MANIFEST A BODY AND HEADSHOT GIL DESPITE NOT HAVING A MASTER FOR TWO DAYS AFTER BEING WOUNDED SEVERELY ENOUGH TO DISEMBODY
Nasu is a hack
Some people entertain the idea that that's Guardian Emiya instead but that's somehow even more bullshit
That's the special characteristic of archers retard, independent action, allows them to survive WAY longer than a regular servant would without a mana source. Rin didn't feel shit secondary she had no contract with Archer at that moment. Fucking secondaries i hate all of you, die
Yes, his actions are a net possitive, that's the effect the counter-guardian has, but the method of it is generally stopping something awful, including killing people on constant basis in no end in sight. If everything was fine and dandy there would be no reason for the conflict.
If he was guardian, he wouldn't be talking with Rin since they lack free will.
How come a porn game have deeper themed than most books?
Guardians just get rid of people that already can't be saved. He wanted to avert tragedies, not clean up after them when it's all already gone to shit when he made contract.
You don't get it. In life, he did his job properly and managed to personally save quite a few people. In like, he was an Ally of Justice. It's the afterlife part that's the issue. As long as Shirou doesn't forge a pact with the world, he can avoid that fate.
>Uses UBW
>gets stabbed multiple time
>makes mulsiple porjections
>WELL AKTSUALLY
this is independant action, not battle continuation
+he should no longer have mana
As lomg as his core is intact, he can survive. As for mana, he consumed the souls of animals to make do.
Oh, right. I never would've claimed to the contrary. I honestly don't recall much about his life. What I mean is that he thinks that becoming a counter-guardian was a mistake and not what he desired.
Yes dude he's a fucking heroic spirit, he never sustained any decisive lethal damage like Lancer did (stabbed through the heart with his own cursed spear). Servants are durable as fuck.
VN says that he didn't have regrets when he died.
If FSN came before Zero then how do they explain Gil's interference in the 5th HGW?
Read the LN friend.
That's why Shirou is a hypocrite. He said that he wanted to save everyone but when the time came he would kill to save. Also to him Shinji was ready to die since he acted like a mage who according to Shirou 'walk with death everyday'.
What do you mean? In Fate route we find out the grail's mud gave him physical body that's why he's there.
That would make absolute sense. The whole issue relating to his ideal stems from the counter-guardian part. Or is at least the main weight.
Archer believed that Emiya Shirou is destined to become a Coumter Guardian if he follows through on his ideals. What he failed to realize is that the Shirou of the three routes had something he lacked. Archer had no one to support him in life. On his own, making a pact with the world is a matter of course. But the Shirou of UBW has Rin by his side, so he won't be able to make that mistake even if he wanted to.
Hypocrite part is about Shirou fighting for others without being concerned about himself.
I thought he survived from the mana that caster had stored in that temple.
Also first thing Archer does after being summoned is lie to his master, why is people surprised he'd fake his dead?
>In Fate route we find out the grail's mud gave him physical body that's why he's there.
Is gilgamesh getting summoned during the 4th HGW a retcon or is it established in FSN?
Gil is an Archer with independent action level bullshit.
It is from F/SN. When Saber sees him for the first time she calls him archer from previous war.
It's clearly stated as soon as saber meets him that he's archer from the last holy war
I still don't understand why the fuck they forgave Shinji. Especially in UBW
They pity him.
Archer also had Rin, but probably not as such a close relationship.
It's both. Shirou himself does care about his well-being but not to the point he would save himself instead of others if he had to make a choice.
They find his sexually attractive.
>endurance C
bullshit
Archer is from a Saber route where "something was missing" where they never became lovers. He went to London with Rin, but she also doesn't become his lover.
Why would they ? They didn't pity Gil. They could have save him in UBW. I wonder how the fuck things would have evolved.
It doesn't matter unless his spirit core is damaged.
Gil was just a servant and enemy to them. Shinji was someone they knew and had attachments to. They could hope he'd change. Saving someone who fucked up is different from saving someone who's fucked up
Better than Saber alter with Endurance A but got smashed uber hard by Strength D Shirou
Shinji did nothing wrong( except maybe rape Sakura, steal Medusa, make enemies with Shirou, participate in the HGW and be born into Matou family)
>be born
At least he won't be making that same mistake again.
Shinji is completely fucked up m8 what the fuck are you on.
>steal medusa
sakura agreed
>make ennemies with shirou
This is a war, not an exhibition match
>every HGW except Extra is ultimately about magi chasing after the 3rd magic
>And in Extra people are mimicking the 3rd magic anyway
>And in FGO the main villain is mimicking the 5th magic and the protagonists are mimicking the 2nd magic
Why does Fate always come down to people fighting over or with true magic
He also doesn't seem that much concerned about Sakura as he is with Rin or Illya.
He used the Azoth sword
>rape Sakura
That's wrong
>steal Medusa
Not really, Sakura didn't want to fight so she gave Medusa to Shinji
>make enemies with Shirou
For all Shinji care Shirou could have an evil goal since he's fucked in the head. Being hostile to a master during the war is not wrong
>participate in the HGW
Well if he won he could have get superpower from the grail, from the perspective of Shinji it was his chance to become a proper mage and not some muggle
>be born into Matou family
That's like saying it was wrong for Sakura to be born into the Tohsaka family
If archer wanted to unfuck his life then why not just go back to the 4th HGW and kill kiritsugu?
Archer is from Luvia route, this is my heascanon
Maybe I'm a pea brained retard but I loved every fight scene vs Berseker in f/sn
What no? He smashed Saber alter with K&B so hard that he crushed her spine and spilled her organs.
See
He's in the throne already, it won't wipe out his existense. It also requires him being summoned as servant in 4th war.
Fuck off Shinji
He doesn't control where he will be summoned as Servant, and as Counter Guardian he has no free will
Redman just needed to trace the tenth ring of Solomon to erase himself from the throne
Deepesr lore
If Archer wants to unjust himself why not walk up to Jannu and ask her to delete him from the Throne like she did for Jack?
He doesn't know her room number in the throne of heroes.
because he can't change the past (he can't influence his own existance inside the throne).
He hoped that by breaking Shirou's will to become a hero and then killing him he could fuck with the universe enough to delete himself, but he himself acknowledged that even that probably wouldn't work. By all accounts he was fucked the moment he sold his soul.
But she lives down the hall in Chaldea
Not in my Chaldea.
Sakura is the ordinary happiness that Archer completely abandoned to be a hero of justice, so it's natural that he'd forget about her.
I don't get the problem. Yes, it's impossible to save everyone but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
I think it is really stupid to logically assume that you have to kill people to save people
You can go Sasuke/Garou mode and become a terrible threat and plant fear in their minds, so much that they can't even bother to hate themselves because of you
what would having jeanne as a servant be like
Impossible because Rulers are summoned by the grail itself
That leads to a bad ending, iirc shirou's mind is destroyed. Also saber isn't defeated it's stated she is incapacitated for 10 minutes until she heals up again. Shirou alone can't do shit against alter saber. Only with Rider and the Azoth sword he wins
>it is a bad end if you kill sakura
this is fucking stupid
>saber jeanne
Who ever said she was summoned as a Ruler
>neither become Guardians
what? UBW Shirou makes a contract with Gaia
>Burserkeru
>Not Bahsahkah
0/10 you tried
Source?
speedreader, it is straight up said that Shirou gets temporary battle experience just by the fact that he is holding the fake of a legendary sword
>Boo hoo I'm not a good mage my sister was so I raped her.
>Now I'm trying to rape someone else not because she did anything wrong but because of dem thighs
Why would anyone forgive him?
>mediocre at fighting
>NP is Suicide
>there is a chance she might remember Sieg
>otherwise she would just be a holy maiden
Not very fun.
Didn't he try to rape Rin in several route? I barely remember Fate but I'm 90% it happened in UBW
because they thought Sakura would be sad with his death, basically
She wasn't raped in any route, unless you mean getting a hole tore in her belly is rape
wtf, anime, just before they go to meet Illya and find her battling Gil
What if shirou summoned discount Gil? Does he win the war?
Elaborate with an argument or stfu.
What are you even talking about? Shirou doesn't make any contracts with the world in that route.
Discount Gil loses to Gil.
He can't kill actual gil
And shirou can't give him enough mana for anything
Saber's mana burst given dial-a-yield stats make ger more economic to use in skirmishes
Fuck Gil, he's not even the oldest character in history books.
Nasu doesn't care about history books. Gil is the oldest hero in Fate.
user posts a sensible answer and no one comments on it.
Never change Yea Forums.
See, you have to understand that Archer's not exactly unbiased, here. He has spent a subjective eternity saving people, and guess what, he's going to do it until the end of time. Maybe longer, given that he can travel to alternate universes and shit.
Spending all of eternity, all of your infinite life, seeing the most horrible situations? That's going to fuck you up and really bad. His argument is "Look, you're not going to get emotional validation from dedicating yourself to saving people. You'll find that there's only so much you can stand before you simply can't take it any more. And then you'll realize 'Oh shit, I've made a terrible choice. I should've spent my life doing something more personally fulfilling, instead of aiming for a grand goal out of gratitude towards the man who saved me, combined with the urge to pay it forward.'"
Shirou, however, answers by saving "Sure, it might suck to be me. But there's value in actually saving people, and there's nothing wrong with dedicating all of eternity to doing so. There's an inherent value in the selfless idea of 'I want to help people where I can'." The implied statement is "Look, I know this sucks for you, but you ARE making a difference in the lives of others. You are objectively a hero, because you're doing good. If you accept that, you'll suffer a lot less."
watch?v=t3dIokufs0M
start at 3 minute mark
what the fuck is this if not a contract, retard?
Fuck Nasu
Archer isn't UBW Shirou, secondary friend.
I never said anything about him becoming Archer himself
That's Archer's memories, user.
>There's probably also Taiga and Rin, but they're not heroines so who gives a fuck.
In UBW Shirou was just short of murdering any and everyone in the way to save Taiga.
lol so I interpreted it wrong all along
>animeonlys in charge of calling others retard
Gil is the first hero written down by humans. Hence he's the oldest heroic spirit.
>Gil is the first hero written down by humans
He's the oldest we have records of.
That's all that matters, heroic spirits are fueled by belief and legends literally, their powerlevel fluctuates depending on how many people know them in the area they're summoned
Just correcting that bit friend, not really arguing for anything.
Ah my bad user
If cardboard kun can make her wet, why cant I?
You need to be as dull as him.
Challenge accepted
Sasuke's endgame wasn't to become the big bad to unify the people. He planned to manipulate the political destiny of his continent to make sure history wouldn't repeat another war-bent political corruption.
He sure choose a stupid way to accomplish his goals
Taiga should have been UBW's heroine
It would be hard to for Shirou to become big bad figure when he'll be just killed by few executioners or magic association members.
Its a magical cup!
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What if Taiga was Medea's master instead of Kuzuki
As a matter of fact, the Indian epics of ramayana and mahab are older than EoG. Nasu clearly had a bias and went for Gilgamesh.
They were written down later
Don't open it user!!
STOOOOOP!!!
>b-but it was written down later!
That's a pretty racist mentality. It doesn't matter when it was "recorded" . What matters is when it occurred. The Ramayana takes place around 7000 BC, that's way before gilgamesh.
No, it is literally about when it was recorded. Gilgamesh is the oldest heroic spirit because his story was written down over 1000 years before the curry myths. His entry to the Throne was 1000 years earlier. In fact he was the Throne's first inhabitant.
What did they mean by this?
Cute salter
>that saber
I'm the boner of my sword...
Are they all members of Tohsaka Shrine?
>Salter
Hi /fgoalter/.
Sakura's sanity went bye-bye~!
I dont get why people get so heated about calling saber alter salter
Nobody seems to care when people called jeanne alter jalter?
I'm just giving you shit user, it's cool.
Rider not being a jobber was my favorite part of Heaven's Feel
If you call her Jalter, you're told to go back in every single Fate thread.
>He doesn't do his bed.
Wtf user? Are you a tard?
She's still a jobber, she just doesn't die.
Who gives a fuck? My bed's gonna get messy again anyway.
S
In the end, what does it mean to be the "bone of your sword?"
If we're talking about Fate then yeah, but I was talking about real history
So deontology is based on shaping your morals around things called "categorical imperatives", which are basically principles that you should maintain regardless of the situation you're in. Categorical imperatives are supposed to be immune to pragmatism - i.e. you should never stray from following their principles under ANY circumstances. Thus, they're REALLY difficulty to define. Simple things like not lying, not killing, and not giving up on your friends generally don't qualify because there may be situations during which abandoning those principles might be moral than following them. However, a lot of writers treat these kinds of things as if they WERE categorical imperatives and have a bunch of annoying protagonists that use this whole fallacy to shape their moral compass. Shirou is an example of such protagonists.
That is why you are never able to bring girls to your room
Listen to me and start doing your bed from now on.
News flash. Plenty of chicks leave their rooms just as if not more messy than dudes. Plus I got laid last month, so I'm not worried.
Caliburn multikills is the worst by far.
Rcher is from Issei route
Another mental gymnast thread about Shirou and psychoanalysis essay when it's already fucking straight to the point and discussed shit load of time.
Shitroufags really love to add in new flavors to stir shit up.
You're right, what we need are more cringe threads where underage posters talk about being isekai'd as Shinji and beating everyone in the setting with CHIM
>tfw no mitsuzuri route
It fucking hurts
>Trace on
>Brain off
Why do I find this so funny?
It's really similar with Capeshits where the multiverse started the whole one OC has billion characteristics because lol different timeline and fancannon.
The fact that Nasu keep reusing this even in FGO make it really hard to pin point the MC/character's main moral and idealism because of the constant changing in narrative. It's a tool writers use to make their MC have bigger universe, but it turns out they can only do it because they use the multiverse excuses to force more world building.
>>O MY NINE LIVES BLADE WORKS
The fuck are you going on about? Herc lost God Hand.
Why does every NP need to be fucking star wars? Why don't we have more like the twelve labors of heracles?
>Nasu keep reusing this even in FGO
except in FGO it's even more retarded and laughable because he got to the point of retconning/changing a few characters identity. Some turn out like a joke character, some characters become belittled of their former self, some even got brainwashed and forgot about their love ones so they can be sold to self-inserters.
If you just keep saving the butterflies the spiders will die.
I'll never forgive Nasu for what he did to my boy
O MY CALIBURN unquestionably. Archer showing up at the end wouldn't have been too bad if we hadn't explicitly seen him skewered into a lump of flesh, and Nine Lives Blade Works is barely acceptable because Herc was nerfed to an unknown degree and down God Hand
Why would you consider Nine Lives Blade Works an asspull at all? He projects variation of NP that Herc used to kill Hydra while Herc is blind, can't regenerate and has no God Hand, still doesn't even manage to kill him and needs Ilya to bail him out by stopping Herc in his tracks.
The slab sword isnt the club that Herc used in his myth therefore it shouldnt contain those memories
At least there's still the cover. These art books are gorgeous.
Realistically, how strong would UBW Shirou end up against other human opponents later in life?
Is he enough to take on someone from Waver's brigade?
Herc is its user right now so it's enough to trace his skills from it.
I will save this comment for next time I see retards not understanding how Shirou works.
Berserker Herc in FSN cannot use 9 Lives.
Tracing the club sword would give Shirou Berserker Herc's skills.
If Berserker Herc doesn't have the skill to use 9 Lives, how can tracing his skills let Shirou use it?
Herc didn't lose Nine Lives, he just can't use it.
He has the skill, he just can't use it b/c of Berserker class.
Nasu just wanted fancy words to overcomplicate the fairly simple message:
It's a waste to try and help people with their small and insignificant day-to-day problems rather than trying to solve the greater-scope overarching problems of the world. It's a losing battle that will be fought forever, since there'll never be a shortage of small problems to try and solve.
What does small and large scale have to do with it? If anything, it's the complete opposite. Archer lost his way because he threw himself at huge problems that he didn't have the power to solve, instead of focusing on helping the people around him be happy.
This is great and all, but can I get my Kotomine route already?
HF is Kotomine route. Shirou confesses that he likes him there.
Too much Sakura, Kotomine dies, etc. And I don't mind her as much as some people, but she's also fucking boring.
Didn't you know? Sakura IS Kirei.
youtube.com
I guess gil didn’t have a leg to stand on
Pre ordered the NA release the other day. Pretty hyped even though nip releases always include more stuff.
>The Ramayana takes place around 7000 BC
>currys write "this happened ten zillion billion years ago"
>user believes
read more books, try to understand them
That is from the ufotable shop right?
cute
>has Herc rape Saber and Rin to death
wait, what? when did that happened? i only remember illya torturing shiro
takekshi drew those?
I see he really doesn't care about his cashcow FGO and only puts efforts in the OG stuffs
Secondary here, why does saber alter do zouken's dirty work?
You mean Takeuchi? He only drew Can't you tell the difference?
Actual smart post
>deontology
Oh hey that's a new word I learned. And what a silly way of thinking that is.
Yes but why is treated like a bad thing? Not everyone can be pure and good so, if anything, I'm grateful that people is making the effort of being good and helpful even if it's for personal gain. A good action is worthy by itself, motives come second place.
The only Takeuchi does this days is the line art. And I'm pretty sure the torso is traced over from somewhere. The pose feels very familiar.
Koyama does the colourings since 2001.
>Shirou is an example of such protagonists.
Is he?
He was more than willing to kill Shinji in Fate because of the shit he pulled at school, same shit with Rin when Taiga was taken hostage and in HF he throws his ideals out the window to protect one person. It also feels like you're treating Shirou like a normal, rational person when he's not even close to being that.
Caliburn isn't an asspull. Shirou saw it in his dreams of Saber. He also carries the origin of sword as well as Avalon inside him, allowing him to trace Caliburn. Archer also took most of the lives out of Beserker before he died.
That's not really the problem with Herc's death, up until that point there was nothing to indicate that a single attack could take more than one life and the VN said that he could only be killed by one type of attack once, so when Shirou and Saber kill him seven fucking times it does feel like an asspull.
Nasu did clear up that Herc's resistance is not a "can't get killed by this thing again" and works more like "gets +1000000 resistance to this attack", but still.
You are trying to find reason in the mind of a guy who can only think swords and cooking.
>not using a toblerone bar to represent Basaka's growling
1/10 Mike see you fall semester
No amount of Saber's assistance nor the implanted Avalon inside Shirou should be able to justify a Z-tier magus without the Archer-powerup he gets in UBW (from his fight with himself) and HF (arm transplant) being able to project an EXTREMELY high tier weapon like Caliburn in any of the laws of the nasuverse.
>Muh sword origin
>nobody seems to care when people use the reddit alter word
hmmmm
really says a lot about ou're community
Nobody is treating Shirou saving others as a bad thing. This doesn't change how shallow his motives are. No amount of saved lives will ever manage that.
Shirou's projection magic was literally always him utilizing his reality marble, he simply didn't understand or recognize it until UBW
Copying Caliburn after he saw it constantly in his dreams is less of a stretch than all of the broken phantasm household appliances he makes at school
What are you talking about? No matter the route he already has UBW, he has a part of the sword inside him and his servant used to be the owner of the fucking thing.
The only swords that he can't trace are Divine Constructs like Ea and Caliburn isn't one.
This. Emiya wants to be a hero for the sake of being a hero. He even admits that he just thinks it looks cool.
Servants like Saber and Lancer strive to protect the people they care about, and in turn are made heroes.
Basically, Shirou is still a little kid.
The bones, are the supporting structures that give stability to the body. So something like that.
Only remaining route to animate for Ufotable is the fate one?
Can someone tell me the different forms of justice Shirou had on each of the routes?
I honestly forgot. From what I got in watching HF is that he just went fuck it, justice for the sake of the one I love or something.
>different forms of justice
What?
Extra sums it up pretty well.
Caliburn by far, not that he could trace it since memories of it were flowing from Saber when they slept, but the fact that somehow it was an inferior NP to Excalibur (and a B one when god hand protects from anything but A ones), it was projected meaning it's rank was downgraded and yet it could kill Herakles multiple times when it took Gil multiple A-class NP to do it (he has Merodach that is the base for Gram that is the base for Caliburn and the older the NP the more powerfull it is).
Given how Caliburn worked had Shirou banged Saber all night long and filled her with Mana she could just shot 1 hit of Excalibur and even if Beserker had all lifes he would have been 1 shotted no matter what.
IIRC
Fate - Nothing changes
UBW - Shirou acknowledges that his ideal is flawed, hypocritical, impossible and that he's just a copy cat of kiritsugu, but mans up and stays true to his ideal making himself see how beautiful it is despite everything else, he also accepts Tohsaka help and stops being so self-destructive
HF - Shirou abandons everything he fucking believes in for a fucking piece of shit, theres's no ideal anymore it's just save one person at the expense of LITERALLY everyone in the world.
Yup, I expect it for an anniversary.
>Fate - Nothing changes
>HF - Shirou abandons everything he fucking believes in for a fucking piece of shit, theres's no ideal anymore it's just save one person at the expense of LITERALLY everyone in the world.
That's exactly how it is though, a picture is not an argument, so I assume you're conceding to my point and admitting i'm right
Is there an advantage buying directly from the shop?
The asspull of caliburn isn't that shirou managed to project it, it's that the subsequent attack on herc instantly obliterated him and took down all his extra lives, even though caliburn is by all metrics equivalent to (or worse than) excalibur, not even taking into account the fact that projection deranks weapons even further compared to the originals.
Projections only derank the weapon if the projection is based on a visual image of the sword (since you cannot truly understand its interior makeup). Caliburns projection did not suffer this weakening because shirou borrowed saber's knowledge of exactly what the real caliburn is like from the inside to the outside from its true owner.
Doesn't change the fact that its still a gigantic asspull beating herc though.
How can you say that nothing changes on Fate? The entire route is about Shirou and Saber coming to terms with their past and moving on, plus he doesn't become Redman in Fate.
I also don't understand why you're saying that in HF he doesn't care about the rest of the world when the entire conflict comes from saving Sakura AND the world at the same time, he changed from being a hero of justice to being Sakura's hero.
People can only help themselves.
What i mean with nothing changes is that, he still believes in his Hero ideal and pursues it to the end, he doesn't value himself more at the end of the route, or have any big revelation about his ideal. He goes on with his life saving as many as he can see, never winning but never giving up, he also reaches Avalon instead of becoming a Counter guardian apparently.
>I also don't understand why you're saying that in HF he doesn't care about the rest of the world when the entire conflict comes from saving Sakura AND the world at the same time, he changed from being a hero of justice to being Sakura's hero.
Exactly, he abandons the rest of the world to save Sakura, he doesn't give a fuck about his ideal of saving everyone, he doesn't care about the world, he just cares about Sakura. This is not Emiya's ideal, he abandons it all for the sake of a whore that doesn't deserve anything but death.
>Everyone that hates HF are just people who hate sakura and project their bias because they don't like the person he saves
How surprising, I bet you would like the route if rhino was in sakura's position
I like the route though, Shirou vs Kotomanly is absolute peak, the OST used are my favorites, Shirou vs Basahkah and Alter saber are also very good scenes.
The only route i don't like much is Fate, although i Love saber. You see not everyone is a retard like you and can separate favoritism from actual plot points, you should stop projecting.
The change in Fate is not as obvious as in the other two routes but it's still there. Redman sold his body to get more power but Shirou didn't, he just did the hero thing and died happy.
>This is not Emiya's ideal, he abandons it all for the sake of a whore that doesn't deserve anything but death.
You mean that he abandons it for the person that he loves?
That fucking high jump again?
This has got to be the dumbest fucking plot point I swear
Dumb mordredposter
Bitches love high jumps.
>t. lacks reading comprehension
How is she?
>Inb4 sakura is the shadow
>The change in Fate is not as obvious as in the other two routes but it's still there. Redman sold his body to get more power but Shirou didn't, he just did the hero thing and died happy.
I can agree with that
>You mean that he abandons it for the person that he loves?
Yes an absolute whore that doesn't deserve anything but death. I not only dislike sakura, I dislike him for abandoning his Ideal, I see it as weak, the easy way out, in my opinion HF shirou is the weakest of all Shirous (not physically of course). UBW being the strongest for confronting the consequences and outcomes of his twisted mentality and pushing through with no regrets.
>Oh you think being raped into oblivion by penis worms every day since you were like 4 years old is hard?
>Check out this kid practicing high jumps, THATS REAL DEDICATION AND RESOLVE RIGHT THERE
?
Pretty sure the point was archer was just bitter his decisions ended up costing him everything and rin or sakura got his ass killed anyways.
>I pretend to have read the VN, but I didn't
>I pretend to be retarded
the problem is that his ideal is beautiful but impossible to achieve it.
he chases kiritsugu's ideal because he thinks becoming a super hero and saving everyone is beautiful and wants to do what Kiritsugu tried and him telling him that at his death made it worse
No, Archer was bitter at the way he had to save people as a counter guardian. Always killing the few to save the many and he never got see the happy results.
Luvia would have supported him. Archer was betrayed by all his lovers.
>in my opinion HF shirou is the weakest of all Shirous
Is he? The closest thing in the other routes that came to Shirou abandoning his ideals was the Redman plotline in UBW, and by the end of it it's shown that even Redman knew that he was full of shit.
Now in HF he actually has to deal with his decision and the fallout that comes from it, no one except Illya really supports him and his mind was breaking apart thanks to Archer's arm.
Nasu didn't make Jason. And at any rate, this version of Jason is way more popular than a "proper" Jason would have been.
cope harder, jumplets
both sisters want his dick
He never saw Gate of Babylon and he only saw a few of the weapons within Archer's arm. In terms of overall net sword worth, he's lower than Fate or UBW Shirou.
Why the fuck did you reply to me? We both said the same thing.
>failed at high jumps at school
>didn't stay after school to practice
>i don't have hot sisters and the king lusting after my dick
I think this explains my v-card.
It is only my opinion, I think a strong Shirou would've sticked to his ideal and try to save everyone instead of tossing everything away for 1 person. I consider Mind of Steel also stronger because he kills his love to save the majority.
That wasn't my point but alright.
Imagine that you can make 2 hot girls fall in love with you by literally being an autistic failure at athletics.
here is a reminder.
that Sakura is stupid.
Illya is the best and should have been the heroine.
instead we have fate/c*nny
Well, is she?
Sakura is kirei
Obviously she is.
>I think a strong Shirou would've sticked to his ideal and try to save everyone instead of tossing everything away for 1 person
Like I said, his priority is Sakura but he still tried to save everyone in the end.
> I consider Mind of Steel also stronger because he kills his love to save the majority.
I don't think that going full Kerry is a good thing.
I like MoS but not because of some sense of justice, but because Sakura dies.
Why is she only really nice to him in HF?
Because he doesn't do the same mistake kiritsugu did sacrificing his love and leaving illya for the greater good and instead protects his loved one from danger even if it means sacrificing people he doesn't know about
What matters is the principle. For instance, hypothetically, what if all of Mihara had died due to his decision? What if the next day after he decided to become Sakura's ally, a thousand people died? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand? A million? That's the decision that Shirou made and that's why he can't become an Ally of Justice. Because he decided that even if countless people were to die as a result of Sakura's continued existence, he will still continue to try to protect Sakura.
They didn't interact in UBW that much but she was nice to him in Fate, they even lived together after the war until she died anyways.
Did Nasu write Shinji as an overacting psycho because he knew otherwise he'd by far too sympathetic a character?
He isn't really a threat in the HGW and she knows some real shit is about to go down
>I don't think that going full Kerry is a good thing.
Agree
>Like I said, his priority is Sakura but he still tried to save everyone in the end.
I must be mis-remembering then, I do remember him hesitating at the beginning of his fight against alter, but otherwise not much about him trying to save anyone else but Sakura. On the bright side HF Shirou is probably the closest to a regular human Shirou gets in all 3 routes, because he's doing what he wants instead of following kiritsugu's deathwish
I came
What a man...
>I must be mis-remembering then
I think it was just a couple of lines here and there. But at the end of the day he did prioritize her over everyone else and a lot of innocent people died because of that, so it's not like it changes the entire route.
holy fuck
kerry made it perfect
Zouken says otherwise.
king of jobbers
>readies final attack
>lets saber block with avalon
>lets shirou cut his arm off
>lets sakura eat him
now narita made him lose his GoB in strange fake
You can shit on the original DEEN anime all you want, but you can't deny that it had a lot of soul in it
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I like how Gilgamesh ego was so huge that Sakura couldn't transform him into an alter version
>watched s/n
>started reading the VN
>no one told me the music was so good
I just let it run
Who drew what here?
Read Tsukihime, it's worth it for the music alone
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What did he do to Jason?
She is nice to him in fate.
Jason was always a mediocre but pretty charismatic dude who got by on leading others who were responsible for the real achievements, but Typemoon exaggerated this to the extreme and made him a full-on comedic prat that somehow still had that special spark that got everyone to follow him.
youtu.be
youtu.be
No. Shirou does not become EMIYA in any route we see in the VN. However, the possibility exists in all of them. Whether it's Fate, UBW, HF, Sparks Liner High, or other ends.
honest thoughts on Angra?
But it is canon in Nasuverse, Gil meets the King Under The Mountain aka the guy who survived the Flood and Gil was born thousands of years after the Flood.
Hot
Complete physical immortality seems pretty nice, and you get to call yourself a magician unironically. If you prefer you can make a wish for anything you want instead.
There's no wish that wouldn't result in the complete annihilation of everything because angra
Heaven's Feel basically turns you into an immortal extra dimensional being with a soul that is perfect and will not decay.
I guess in a way, it's like becoming Dr Manhattan.
Sparks Liner High Shirou has zero chance of becoming Archer. Because he dies before he can make a contract with the world.
Even something as cataclysmic as the events of Grand Order aren't enough to fuck with the Throne. The only thing that may work is Alaya being destroyed, or being convinced somehow to let him leave. Good luck doing either of those things.
Angra only existed in the 3rd War, not the 1st and 2nd.
If Einzberns never tried summoning what they thought was Lucifer or Satan but some normal hero, instead, Angra would not have infected the Grail.
It's an imperfect version of the Third so he'll still live and die like a normal human.
>real history
Ramayana taking place in 7000 BCE (or at all, really) isn't real history. Gilgamesh is at least a real historical character from ~2800 BCE. This is according to modern historical scholastic study.
Sabers, Kotomine's, and Illya's descriptions of Kiritsugu align perfectly.
The music is a huge part of what makes the VN so good. It's so perfectly constructed to amplify the mood Nasu wants you to feel.
Ever present feeling is my favourite track.
If anything butcher made Kerry softer to make him more likeable. Evacuating the building before blowing it up was out of character.
Heaven's Feel is real. Before the Einzberns lost the technique, their ancestor successfully achieved it.
Shirou's problem is that Rin just raided an abandoned mansion where Touko used to live and just grabbed some random puppet body.
If Rin got a chance to meet Touko and bargain for the best replacement body for Shirou possible, Shirou might have gained some physical improvements than his original body because that is what Touko's passion and specialty is: To create the perfect, ideal body.
So in a way, Touko and the Einzberns tread similar path but I have no idea what Touko would think about extra dimensional bodies.
Touko knows about souls, though, just like the Einzberns. Perhaps, Touko is more in the Eastern way of magic while the Einzberns are more the Western way of magic.
This is something I've been a little confused about even in the VN.
Is Archer approving of Shirou going Hero of Justice mode and following in his footsteps, dooming himself to the awful chain of events that turns him into a bitter counter guardian, or is he just saying that devoting himself to saving the erotical black hole is even worse?
how does he do it?
That's got nothing to do with it. Illya outright says that the Third that she achieved in HF True is imperfect. All Illya did was extract Shirou's soul perfectly and stick it in a different container so that he could continue to live. His soul is neither immortal nor "extradimensional". He's a mortal living a mortal life and will die a mortal death.
k-kakkoi...
He's simply giving him the facts. Going through with that path is the equivalent of destroying himself. All he's doing is telling Shirou exactly what he's getting into.
It's not Archer's style to encourage Shirou regardless of his choices. All he's doing is telling Shirou what's going to happen to him.
>Saber cut Hassan's arm
>he just used it again later
How?
I see. I really should re-read the VN. It's been almost a decade since I last read it.
>Is Archer approving of Shirou going Hero of Justice mode and following in his footsteps, dooming himself to the awful chain of events that turns him into a bitter counter guardian
That's not what happens and Redman of all people should know that.
>or is he just saying that devoting himself to saving the erotical black hole is even worse?
No, he's saying that the person that he is will stop existing.
he's telling him that if he does not save Sakura he will become what archer is.
if he does not, his main reason for living on will cause him to die.
He's just saying that he's doomed, but in a different way. And he was doomed but only saved due to a literal miracle (my angel Illya)
Servants tend to regenerate, though for most of them it's slow.
Redman could have stabbed Sakura with Rule Breaker because conveniently the connection between them is similar to a master and servant to save her yet he didn't.
Sure, but it wouldn't if it worked like it was supposed to originally.
An idea I just had, if someone summoned an incarnation of pure goodness, and allowed the servant to die and be absorbed by the grail, would the grail be purified? Probably Zoroaster if we stick with Angra's origins.
One of my favorite things in HF is that Illya immediately recognizes who Redman is.
Illya is the best one-san.
Doesn't seem to go all that far from the Jason of legend, the guy went to a power hungry king that killed all pretendents to the throne to reclaim the throne just like that, no army no anything. Hadn't Hera blessed him he would just have a sword on his neck and GG.
Most of his legend is everyone doing everything and he didn't even managed to seduce Medea, it was Hera that had to convince Afrodite to convince Eros to make her fall in love with him for her to tell him how he could get the fleece since he was depressed and gave up.
He even ended up fucking up the blessing that he had from Hera by cheating on Medea that lead to him to die alone and unhappy by having the rotten Argo's stern fall over him while asleep.
Type moon or not Jason is one of the most pathetic heroes I have ever heard.
I think the connection would be re-established again forcibly unless they blew up the grail immediately after and shut down any possibility of it happening again ASAP.
He didn't see rule breaker jn the VN
goddammit, i'm gar now
I'm pretty sure that he didn't know that Sakura was the reason behind the Shadow, and even then you still have to deal with the Greater Grail if you want to get rid of Angry Manjew.
I'm just saying if Rin could find a better container for Shirou, he might live longer because Touko has the ability to create better bodies.
But what Rin found was just some random tossed away spare from Touko who wasn't living in the area anymore.
when did Illya actually realize?
Was it when he got his arm reattached or before that?
Then stab her again, it's not like Rule Breaker actually deal any damage to you
He should have had it in UBW already given how he knew about Sakura's circumstance which both Fate and UBW Shirou didn't
He already gave point to Shirou, in fact he said that it wasn't too late yet which implied he knew what would happen and it's entirely possible to save Sakura
Illya can suck servants after they die into her body so when she does she comes to understand the nature of the servants
Nah. The thing about Touko's dolls is that even if you stick a soul in them, the soul will overwrite the body. Eventually, the body will become a perfect copy of Shirou's original.
It was when she absorbed Archer's soul as the Holy Grail.
You are assuming too much.
>in fact he said that it wasn't too late yet which implied he knew what would happen and it's entirely possible to save Sakura
At that point Shirou was just trying to save Sakura from Zouken, there's nothing that implies that he knew that Angra was controlling her.
I can't remember, but didn't she just wonder who Archer was after killing him in the Fate route?
Given that the throne is out of space and time Redman should have fought hundreds of times in the 5th war already. There is no clear proof that he doesn't have Rule Breaker in UBW in any route.
It's like how he could take 6 lives from Herc then went back to being a scrub in other routes.
Shirou had no clue but Redman clearly knew what he was talking about otherwise he wouldn't give such advice to Shirou.
I think that was just because this no-name asshole just walked into your castle and killed one of the strongest servants ever six fucking times.
Maybe the fact that he doesn't ever use RB means he didn't have it.
>Shirou had no clue but Redman clearly knew what he was talking about otherwise he wouldn't give such advice to Shirou.
You are assuming way too fucking much here.
Or that is a plot hole Nasu couldn't fix
How the fuck is it assuming when Redman is the future version of Shirou, knew what he was talking about in UBW when it came to Saber's dream and Sakura's suffering? You are the one ignoring the context of the dialogue. If Redman had no clue he would have just said that they needed to find the source of the shadow and gank it immediately instead of telling Shirou it's not too late.
The only time Shirou ever see Medea using Rule Breaker is in UBW. He using it in HF means that Rule Breaker should be in Archer archives.
Alright then, what possible fucking reason would Redman have for not doing the RB himself?
From the moment where he saw the Shadow he stopped fucking around and got serious, but for some reason he decided to give vague advice to his past, inexperienced self. That makes a lot of sense.
Shirou actually saw Rule Breaker at the Ryudo temple when it looks like Medea just killed her master
He immediately realized what Rule Breaker was when he saw it in Fate.
>The only time Shirou ever see Medea using Rule Breaker is in UBW
He saw Rule Breaker when they went to the temple in HF, he even warned Saber about it.
Many reasons to be honest, it's been a while since I read it so I don't know exactly what Archer is referring to but a big reason is how he doesn't want anyone else to be in danger yet he throws himself in danger constantly. He doesn't want other people to die but also other people don't want him to die. He even tells Saber, his servant, not to fight because it's too dangerous. He doesn't realise his life is as valuable as everyone else's.
I forgot about that. Well, then its actually plausible that Archer doesn't has Rule Breaker.
Because it's a plot hole. The closest reason is Redman is a retard and didn't want to show his cards like how he could have rule breaker himself in UBW but didn't. Here he left a clue for Shirou because he wasn't nice enough to deal with the problem by himself.
>Because it's a plot hole
Or maybe you're making shit up.
The scenario that you're describing makes no fucking sense at all.
>Or that is a plot hole Nasu couldn't fix
It's a plot hole in your headcanon because you are assuming things that aren't there.
It doesn't make sense because it is a fucking plot hole, that's why people call it a plot hole.
If Redman truly had no clue on what the fuck is happening to Sakura he wouldn't tell Shirou it's not too late. He would just complain about having to do another job of hunting down the shadow instead of focusing on the war. That's how his character is. Yet here he told Shirou not to give up and it's possible to save Sakura, implying that he indeed knew what would happen to Sakura and he had to deal with it before.
Refute the part where he told Shirou it's not too late then faggot. Stop ignoring what the character did in the story for your headcanon.
This is just like how Redman could take 6 lives from Herc despite showing nothing before.
>like how he could have rule breaker himself in UBW but didn't
Why do you think he went along with Medea to begin with, retard? He could have left any time.
If he broke the contract mid-fight, Medea would be alert and release Saber.
Don't fucking call anything a plot hole if you're too retarded to understand dick all.
Redman's objective in UBW was to kill Shirou, not to fight for Rin or whatever. At any point he could have rule breaker himself then went straight for Shirou who was a fucking retard that went to school without Saber.
You are the retarded one.
Archer doesn't know sakura's secrets. Nash said Archer had dealt with similar scenarios as a CG, but the sakura things is new to him. And you keep assuming for no reason that archer has RB.
>It doesn't make sense because it is a fucking plot hole, that's why people call it a plot hole.
It's not a fucking plot hole you massive retard, he didn't fucking know.
>If Redman truly had no clue on what the fuck is happening to Sakura he wouldn't tell Shirou it's not too late
She was still going to die you fucking idiot.
>He would just complain about having to do another job of hunting down the shadow instead of focusing on the war
He had to do both things anyways.
>Yet here he told Shirou not to give up and it's possible to save Sakura, implying that he indeed knew what would happen to Sakura and he had to deal with it before.
Or maybe, just fucking maybe he was giving Shirou a little motivation seeing how the previous conversation was about him abandoning his ideals.
You know, the thing that Archer wanted to get through his fucking thick skull in the first place.
>Redman's objective in UBW was to kill Shirou,
Again, don't talk like you know what the fuck you're talking about.
Read the goddamn visual novel or re-watch UBW. I don't care what you do, just pay attention and don't suggest completely retarded shit like "haha why doesn't he just kill his younger self and let everyone in the world die via grail?" or act like killing Shirou was ever his primary objective to begin with.
>And you keep assuming for no reason that archer has RB.
Not an assumption, the Throne being outside of time and space means this is not a fucking first time for Redman to fight in the 5th war. Given how he had tons of stuffs like RA to Caladbog it's a proof that he had been through a lot and gained a lot in UBW. Having Rule Breaker is a default to him. Assuming that he doesn't have it is a retarded conclusion because you will break the Throne lore.
>It's not a fucking plot hole you massive retard, he didn't fucking know.
It is when he fucking did jackshit to stop the whole thing
>She was still going to die you fucking idiot.
If she was going to die then he would tell Shirou it was already too late yet he did the opposite. Stop being a retard and read the context
>Or maybe, just fucking maybe he was giving Shirou a little motivation seeing how the previous conversation was about him abandoning his ideals.
Now this is a fucking assumption from your headcanon
>look Redman's objective in UBW isn't to kill Shirou believe my headcanoooonnn
Fucking retard
HE DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW, HOW HARD IS THAT TO FUCKING UNDERSTAND?
>Now this is a fucking assumption from your headcanon
You have the fucking balls to tell me that I'm making shit up?
Are you fucking kidding me?
>Fucking retard
You're the retard. He doesn't want to just kill Shirou, he wants to crush his ideal. He knows killing Shirou will do nothing, it's an act of rage and self-loathing. He wants justification for his anger and regrets. Straight up sucker-stabbing Shirou isn't going to give him any justification.
Not only that but eliminating himself and Saber (who, don't forget, will be defending Shirou and Archer would be masterless in your bumfuck stupid scenario) can slice him in two. Even if he won over Saber, that would leave Fuyuki and the world defenseless to being raped by grail mud that would inevitably pour out regardless who else won.
Admit you're wrong or stop posting.
>look Redman's objective in UBW isn't to kill Shirou believe my headcanoooonnn
>Fucking retard
Not that user, but he could have killed him in so many ways. Even in that 1v1 duel, it even says in the middle of the fight, he could do basically anything and it would result in him killing Shirou.
As long as you still haven't refuted the part where he said it wasn't too late to Shirou you are a fucking retard and can't prove Redman didn't know about Sakura's circumstance. I don't care about the rest of your retarded post since you have no argument.
>You have the fucking balls to tell me that I'm making shit up?
Redman trying to kill Shirou in UBW is the biggest objective, he even dared to kidnap Rin just so he could do that. What the fuck are you trying to prove here?
>he could do basically anything and it would result in him killing Shirou.
This. It's astounding how many people think Shirou had any fucking chance in a physical contest against Archer.
He was straight up torturing Shirou to try and get him to shut up with the hero ideology and go become a regular goddamn human being or at least give him the satisfaction in knowing he makes a shit choice in becoming a guardian.
>As long as you still haven't refuted the part where he said it wasn't too late to Shirou
SHE
WAS
STILL
GOING
TO
FUCKING
DIE
That's why they were going after Zouken, they needed to get the crest worm out you fucking nigger.
Fuck me rigid, I'd take the shitters that complain about Gil not wearing his armor over your retarded ass that can't even remember basic plot elements.
Those wikipedia articles you got all your information from will do you no good here.
Unlike whatever forum you came from, we actually know what we're talking about. We watched the anime and read the visual novel.
Leave.
I know someone already blew you the fuck out with a reply but imagine being this fucking stupid and then pulling out the MUH ORIGINAL JAPANESE card. Why do you THINK every dictionary lists that as hypocrisy, you sniveling ape?
>Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations,
Oh look, it's your precious split kanji. In the fucking definition.
The servants that get Simmons for HGWs are copies that get discarded.
He did try to stab Shirou from the back multiple times you fucking retard, it was only later when both Saber and Rin told him that his actions were useless that he began to admit it. Until then he was trying to kill Shirou multiple times. Hell he did it first when Saber was fighting Herc in the graveyard.
>Not only that but eliminating himself and Saber (who, don't forget, will be defending Shirou and Archer would be masterless in your bumfuck stupid scenario) can slice him in two
Redman never tried to fight Saber headon are you fucking retarded? Where the hell is this?
>Even if he won over Saber, that would leave Fuyuki and the world defenseless to being raped by grail mud that would inevitably pour out regardless who else won.
Which doesn't matter to him since he knew how Alaya works. Gil tried anything funny and he got sniped
I just noticed this little beauty
>Redman trying to kill Shirou in UBW is the biggest objective, he even dared to kidnap Rin just so he could do that. What the fuck are you trying to prove here?
Are you so fucking retarded that you can't even fathom the fact that more than one person is calling you out on your bullshit?
Again no argument, if Sakura was going to die then Redman would tell Shirou that it was too late and he couldn't save Sakura
Not an argument. I have already shown that Redman told Shirou it was not too late to save Sakura which implied that he did know what would happen and what they could do to save Sakura. You are the retard who can't read the post.
They return to the Throne with knowledge, this has been shown when Redman talked to himself at the beginning. It's something like reading a book but don't know the order of them.
So no argument again?
>He did try to stab Shirou from the back multiple times
Once, immediately after saving Shirou from Caster. Shirou's idealistic suicidal bullshit pissed him off. He needed Rider to take care of Hercules for the perfect scenario to deal with the holy grail as efficiently as he can. Don't forget he's Shirou, he still wants to save everyone. He's not going to doom the world for some silly faggotry.
>Redman never tried to fight Saber headon are you fucking retarded? Where the hell is this?
You suggested he break his contract with Rin and go after Shirou, who the fuck do you think Shirou can call with a command seal? Use your goddamn head imbecile.
>Which doesn't matter to him
Jesus fucking christ you literally don't know a single goddamn thing about the characters you're talking about.
Fucking kill yourself, you really pissed me off with your ignorance.
>Again no argument
Go fuck yourself, go find the biggest fucking thing you can and ram it up your fucking ass.
Actually don't, considering that you're a gigantic fucking faggot you might fucking enjoy it.
>this has been shown when Redman talked to himself at the beginning.
Once AGAIN you spout misinformation.
Guess what nigger, Saber and Emiya are the two exceptions to this rule. Emiya is a counter guardian and keeps his memories. Saber hasn't died yet, she's being summoned into the future from when she was still alive. She dies at the end of F/SN and becomes a heroic spirit after.
>They return to the Throne with knowledge, this has been shown when Redman talked to himself at the beginning. It's something like reading a book but don't know the order of them.
And reading a description of a weapon is lot enough to add it to UBW, you brain dead retard.
I think he baited us real fucking good, no secondary can be this fucking retarded.
He's clearly getting his information from somewhere but he doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about.
There's been a growing number of people who get the bare minimum information and act like know-it-alls while simultaneously hating the series recently.
I think that it's safe to pin the blame on FGO.
>People get saved either way
you don't know that
>you can't save everyone
Isn't you that are saying that? How said that "I" want to save "everyone"? I just want to help those I can with the power I have.
Don't put words in my mouth to pretend be smart.
>Once, immediately after saving Shirou from Caster
Two actually, once when Shirou was trying to go back to Ryudo temple to beat Medea. The second time was when Medea was just defeated and Saber tackled Shirou to save him from Redman.
>He needed Rider to take care of Hercules for the perfect scenario to deal with the holy grail as efficiently as he can
Rider got fucking killed by Kuzuki early the hell are you talking about?
>You suggested he break his contract with Rin and go after Shirou, who the fuck do you think Shirou can call with a command seal? Use your goddamn head imbecile.
Shirou is a fucking retard who went to school without Saber, and then in the Rider's fight she casually cut off his arm before he could use the cs. That alone is enough to show that Shirou couldn't get protected from Saber all the time.
>Jesus fucking christ you literally don't know a single goddamn thing about the characters you're talking about.
>Fucking kill yourself, you really pissed me off with your ignorance.
He was the one who said that Rin was fucking foolish for going after Medea immediately. He didn't give a fuck about noname civilians as long as he could accomplish what he wanted. Hell he was willing to give Rin to Shinji despite knowing what Shinji would do to her.
No argument. Cope.
We have a uber retard here who doesn't actually play the VN but no one calls him out. Pic related.
It was enough for Shirou to trace a copy of gemsword in HF. For Redman that was more than enough to add in UBW since Rule Breaker isn't that special and alien in nature.
>Two actually, once when Shirou was trying to go back to Ryudo temple to beat Medea.
Hercules was taken care of by Gilgamesh, who Archer can confidently counter, with or without Saber's help. This was Archer's chance to deal with his grudge, then save the world.
>Rider got fucking killed by Kuzuki early the hell are you talking about?
I meant he needed Caster to take care of Hercules. I'm unfathomably pissed at your inability to get your facts straight and it frazzled me.
>It was enough for Shirou to trace a copy of gemsword in HF.
Wrong again faggot. He had to be shown a memory as if he was seeing the gem sword IN PERSON.
>We have a uber retard here who doesn't actually play the VN but no one calls him out.
Says you who clearly skimmed a fuckin wiki article and called it a day. You're a mess.
Yeah, it was a total mystery to her and Herc who he was even after he was dead.
lparchive.org
>Hercules was taken care of by Gilgamesh, who Archer can confidently counter, with or without Saber's help. This was Archer's chance to deal with his grudge, then save the world.
Your point?
>I meant he needed Caster to take care of Hercules. I'm unfathomably pissed at your inability to get your facts straight and it frazzled me.
You meant you talked about an irrelevant point then another and expected people to follow you? Either admit that you made a mistake then correct it or suck it up.
Redman could have done it easy in UBW if he wanted to kill Shirou:
>rule breaker himself when Rin and Shirou were at school
>oneshot Shirou who was a scrub
>now Rin could be Saber's master
>do whatever he could to ensure that Rin won or damage control the war
>at worst do a suicide run against Herc so Saber could Excalibur him while Gil jobbed pathetically like any route
There, easy to understand
>He had to be shown a memory as if he was seeing the gem sword IN PERSON
I already posted the pic where Redman got the knowledge, UBW could instantly record and analyze anything he saw so that alone is enough. You are the one ignoring stuffs. Why would Redman had trouble with this while HF Shirou only had a glimpse of the gemsword and his mind was being broken everytime he tried to project?
>Says you who clearly skimmed a fuckin wiki article and called it a day. You're a mess.
I don't give a fuck, I read the VN and I got proof to show. I don't care if you believe my words as long as my argument still stands. You think I'm wrong? Then prove me wrong. Otherwise suck it up because you can't prove anything.
>I don't give a fuck, I read the VN and I got proof to show.
No you fucking don't, you're posting images from an archive.
They literally have the same text, posting from it is much faster than skipping to the part where the proof is while still holding the same value.
Now you're just grasping at straws.
This whole thing is stupid. When Archer said "it's not too late", he meant it's not too late to save THE CITY. (Unlike his usual duties as a Counter Guardian, when typically the shit has already hit the fan.) He wasn't talking about Sakura.
>Your point?
>You meant you talked about an irrelevant point
I'm calling you a retard because you said it's a plot hole why Archer didn't just rule breaker himself and got lop off Shirou's head.
I'm countering that by backing up why that won't work with explanations.
Please keep on track.
>oneshot Shirou who was a scrub
>now Rin could be Saber's master
Yeah I'm so fucking sure Saber would be on board with teaming up with the people who just killed her master. Also for all she knows all but one Servant needs to die for the wish to be given, you really think she's stupid enough to just go "ok I'll help you win then die :)"?
Every single point you make hinges on the characters being completely out of character at best.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about and you have no idea what the characters act like.
You are far less intelligent than you believe yourself to be and you need to stop acting like you know better based off of less information than anyone else here.
>I don't give a fuck, I read the VN and I got proof to show.
Your "proof" is pretty goddamn flimsy when it's apparent you didn't understand anything you apparently read.
Because he wasn't helping himself
/thread
Here's the line.
>Simple things like not lying, not killing, and not giving up on your friends generally don't qualify
??? Kant would most definitely count not lying as a categorical imperative hence the famous analogy of the the door knocking axe murderer.
General idea behind categorical imperatives is that for Kant for any normative proposition to have any value we must treat them as if they were universal themselves.
“The Categorical Imperative simply declares, “Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature.” Are you willing to permit everyone to adopt the action? If Yes, your action is moral. If No, your action is immoral. In a nutshell, our internal responses are more revealing than our outward professions when we flip the moral actions back on ourselves.”
They got Jesus Yamato to voice him
>Yeah I'm so fucking sure Saber would be on board with teaming up with the people who just killed her master.
She had no problem teaming with Rin at the church, Rin here just had to tell her that Archer betrayed her and they should team up if they wanted to survive/win. Given that Saber didn't have a deep connection to Shirou in UBW she would try to focus more on getting the grail to fulfill her wish.
>Every single point you make hinges on the characters being completely out of character at best.
Redman did try to kill Shirou back in the graveyard when he shot an AoE arrow, that is not OOC for him to play dirty. He also gave Rin to Shinji knowing what he would try to do.
You are the one who doesn't know the characters.
>You are far less intelligent than you believe yourself to be and you need to stop acting like you know better based off of less information than anyone else here.
Doesn't care as long as I have an argument and you don't
>Your "proof" is pretty goddamn flimsy when it's apparent you didn't understand anything you apparently read.
Meanwhile you have no proof and nothing to prove your point. You are the retarded one.
Thanks. Here showing that Redman knew what he could do to save Sakura.
>Thanks. Here showing that Redman knew what he could do to save Sakura.
You are fucking delusional.
>He also gave Rin to Shinji knowing what he would try to do.
He was also under the impression Lancer and Saber would go to her aid.
>You are the one who doesn't know the characters.
Said the guy suggesting the character betray the very foundation of who they are and what they represent like it's fucking obvious. Kill yourself.
>Doesn't care as long as I have an argument and you don't
Holy fuck you aren't even up your own ass, you're EATING your own ass like the Ouroboros. I don't even have to argue against you because everyone reading this conversation already knows you're in the wrong.
I'm gone.
>He was also under the impression Lancer and Saber would go to her aid.
He did, just like back when he was a servant under Medea he thought that Shirou and Rin would get help from Lancer but in a Bad End they didn't. Here no telling that Lancer would come right on time to save Rin from Shinji.
>Said the guy suggesting the character betray the very foundation of who they are and what they represent like it's fucking obvious. Kill yourself.
I already show the character and how they act. All the action here is entirely possible from Redman killing Shirou to Saber becoming Rin's servant. Trying to deny it shows that you don't understand the characters.
>Holy fuck you aren't even up your own ass, you're EATING your own ass like the Ouroboros. I don't even have to argue against you because everyone reading this conversation already knows you're in the wrong.
>I'm gone.
You can't prove anything to my argument. Don't care if one more retard leaves this.