What is the appeal of Madoka Magica?

Oh yeah, I can definitely give it that. What I guess just sort of confuses me about everything is the extreme amount of hype the series seems to get in every thread except this one.

On that note, I feel like everyone in this thread so far has been completely reasonable. Seriously guys, thank you. I enjoy hearing these sorts of opinions from people who can actually keep their heads screwed on straight when talking about the series. You give me hope for humanity.

Being maguca is suffering...

Attached: megucasuffering.jpg (600x630, 31K)

Well you also have to look at it like Code Geass, since you brought it up. A lot of us watched it together, same with Gurren Lagann, which increased the hype, the memes, etc. tenfold, at least for people like me it makes me enjoy series more when Yea Forums gets to those levels once again, because while it's a lot of silliness such as Checkmate or Meguca, it's also a lot of just pure hype and craziness going on, which Madoka had tons of, and a lot of very good aesthetic quality to it, despite some of the more QUALITY Meguca scenes.

Now people are divided on Rebellion of course, and the movies in general, which I understand why, but I personally feel, much like End of Evangelion, it ties a lot more together, it just suffers from pacing problems due to being a movie of course.

And there is still hope for Yea Forums, a lot of don't entirely get to discussion anymore, especially dependent on the board, but some of us actually try to discuss the things we love and enjoy.

If youre an "under 10 rewatchs" rewatchlet. You cant discuss maduka. This includes rebellion.

become Magical Madotsuki!

Oh man, you are seriously bringing me back right now. How did we get so old, my friend? It has been years since those days. I feel like the culture here has changed so much in the time I’ve been gone, what with the sheer influx of trashy, seasonal ecchi shows and their respective fans.

Thanks for seeing through my initial bullshit and cynicism, and really putting my expectations for this show in line. It is just a fun meme then, and the people who would argue otherwise (ie: GOATers or “surpasses Evangelion” types) are mostly just fooling around.

Attached: 10FC6A6D-26F7-4853-860F-8E1A1D0FD984.png (800x700, 691K)

Attached: DF959382-ED93-406C-888D-80D11C993060.png (500x878, 207K)

>What is
Stopped reading there.

Trust me user, I can deal with the other boards cynicism outside of Yea Forums and /r9k/, which just dissolves into pure stupidity that isn't even ironic half the time.

The problem with Yea Forums isn't so much the culture has changed, its still the same for the most part, it's that anime is kind of shit this decade, some fantastic gems ofc, but it's definitely dropped off as it's went along, this coupled with new users coming in, while the older users will either leave because they've grown up and moved on, or not posting as much as we used to because we aren't dipshit teenagers and college kids anymore.

I want to get into mahao shoujo, can someone post the magical girl infographic on where to get started? I know I've seen one float around sometimes, kinda like the gundam one

docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe4Y2CZRygs_Ji0Y53QiycVG46yz9s5onSp_wSivxZKXv3h4A/viewform
Vote for the Best Meguca of 2019.

Homura is Sophia as the errant world-builder
Madoka is Christ as the solar Logos
You have to have a deep understanding of Valentinian Gnosticism to appreciate Madoka Magica.

>What is the appeal of Madoka Magica?
It's fun and there are cute girls. It's by no means the Evangelion of this decade, of course.

Probably the main appeal of Madoka was the dark twist that came all of a sudden with Mami's death. And that was just the first twist: the plot kept escalating into greater and greater despair. The interesting idea of Madoka is taking the concept of Mahou Shoujo, which is usually perceived as a joyous and marvelous thing (a magical girl that fights for love and peace), and turn it into something much cruder and down-to-earth. To begin with, mahou shoujo become such by having a wish fulfilled (which in one way or another turns out to be rather selfish or at least narrow-minded); and then, they find out that being a magical girl is no fun at all, it involves a lot of pain and suffering. As if that weren't bad enough, they find out that mahou shoujo turn into witches at the end of their "natural" lifespan of hope. So, episode after episode, you're presented with the abusrd picture of a world where magical girls kill witches only to become witches themselves in turn. In other words, the whole fighting appears to be completely pointless and it was initiated by those responsible for creating the mahou shoujo in the first place (Incubators). But, as it turns out, Incubators don't torture young girls just for sport: their suffering is merely part and parcel of a grand plan to save the world from entropy and the total annihilation of heat death. Incubators sacrifice the few for the sake of the many. It's not at all obvious who is the real bad guy here, as all mahou shoujo, despite their pretense of altruism and self-sacrifice, turn out to be rather petty and selfish, whereas Incubators are concerned with a serious problem that affects the whole universe. You might criticize the character-driven execution of the concept, but the idea itself is what sparked so much interest and discussion about Madoka when it was airing.

Attached: wisdom of silenus.jpg (1500x900, 196K)

Homura is the Joker.
Madoka is the Batman.
You have to have a deep understanding of DC Comics to appreciate Madoka Magica.

Despite majou shoujo fans claims to the contrary, "dark" magical girl anime are a minority in the genre, which is what made Madoka stand out to so many people. The strongest pulls to me were the animation and character design. Plot was serviceable, but the characters were definitely very one-note and it seemed to forgo actual character development in favor of shocking deaths. It's not high art, but it's a genuinely good anime that I would recommend to anyone looking to get into the medium.

Imagine calling yourself a "philosopher" and not even understanding the fundamental flaws in Plotinus' arguments against the Gnostics

Nice get, and fair enough; I have been saying just as much now since 2008. It is certainly true that anime is on a major decline in terms of quality. Yet, I feel it has almost become taboo to say this. It’s as though people are so desperate to believe that anime is still just as good as it used to be, to the point that they’re willing to hype up perfectly average shows whilst refusing to watch the classics out of spite. If I can be quite frank, that’s part of the reason I made this thread. I feel a lot of that strain to be excited about something great coming from the Madoka crowd (in general, but especially the 2019ers,) and it’s really sad. They are trying so hard to obsess over something. It is ironically almost as though they are, collectively, like a grieving witch— regretful over the fact that they didn’t get to be a part of the same trends you and I enjoyed back in our heyday, and in denial that anime is simply not what it used to be.

Of course, what do you and I know? We’re a couple of oldfags. Karl Marx is cool again, and that means that quality is subjective because everything and everyone is equal. Talking to you has been a bliss, my friend.

Nah, anime has definitely dropped off, the only difference is that when an anime is good this decade, its fucking good, but we've got so many just meh and shit anime strewn about and talked about that it's insane, but you're right, opinions are subjective after all, or else we wouldn't be having Red vs. Blue WaifuWars for years and years.

>things will never be as good as the good old days
You're nostalgic, whether you realize it or not.

A well-reasoned and most excellent explanation. So then, if I may... what is the Evangelion of this decade, in your opinion?

See, I hear shit like this all the time, but it this even a valid take or just a meme?

What are facts?
What are memes?
What is truth?
What is fiction?

If you told me that the whole story took place in the mind of a confused, angry lesbian, and that it was supposed to be like a gay girl’s version of the Allegory of the Cave, I would probably believe you.

>the characters were just as bland and one-dimensional as they were before
With such a mindset, you will never be able to appreciate the series. My knee jerk reaction is to write your post off as bait, as we've experienced this song and dance a thousand times before, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt. There's a lot of irrelevant buzzword flinging about "deconstruction of magical girl genre" that has nothing to do with the merit of the narrative. Madoka is foremost one of the most purposefully and tightly crafted sets of character journeys in anime. Each has their respective ideological journey, and they're not just mouthpieces, either, they have a set of experiences that form their identities and make them feel more human. And despite all the dark elements of the story, at their core, they're all faithfully idealistic, even in their failures and tragedy, which makes them endearing.

To make the comparison to Evangelion, Madoka is an ideological anime, whereas Evangelion is a psychological anime; its cast is more defined by their mental issues stemming from their respective traumas. It's a disservice to either to judge them by simply plot and dark twists while writing off their respective character-driven narratives.

(continued)
As for Rebellion, I personally thought of it as a kind of glorified fanfiction, but it has its merits. Many themes of Rebellion were non-existent or barely explored in the TV series, and those themes became big only after the series aired and people started to discuss it and make fanart of it. The pairing Mami x Charlotte in Rebellion is a very forced asspull and in my opinion it exists merely because Mami x Charlotte became a huge meme among fanartists. The major focus on the sapphic relation between Sayaka and Kyouko is another homage to the fans, although it is of course much less forced than Mami x Charlotte, but it is pursued much further than in the TV series (with the hands holding and all the rest).

The development of Homura as a kind of antagonist is in line with the moral relativism of the TV series. The Incubators, who used to be the "bad guys", become "good guys" at the end of the TV series thanks to Madoka's sacrifice that changes the rules of the game. Nonetheless the cooperative relationship between magical girls and Incubators is merely circumstantial, and the Incubators are still inhumane enough to carry out experiments on Homura in order to discover more efficient ways to harness anti-entropy energy. Homura on the other hand is willing to bring chaos into the world for the sake of being reunited with Madoka. Once again it is not at all clear who is in the wrong here, since, inhuman as they were, the Incubators were trying to preserve order and prolong the life of the universe as efficiently as possible, whereas Homura is willing to turn the world upside-down for the sake of her own selfish desires (which, incidentally, go against the desires of the person she claims to love, since Madoka willingly sacrificed herself to protect the order that Homura threatens. And Homura goes as far as assuming that those weren't Madoka's true desires and Madoka surely regretted her choice, and thus Homura can rationalize her selfishness).

Attached: the end of gondola.png (1200x750, 396K)

I am, but I also still enjoy things now, I just think the quality of a lot of anime isn't something I particularly enjoy compared to some back in 07 and 08 and such, that's all. Still plenty of good anime though.

Okay Diogenes, elaborate. Honestly, I’m open minded to the idea of having maybe missed something philosophically.

Another good opinion, although I’d honestly struggle to recommend this anime to someone that wasn’t a former Tumblr girl.

The industry became bigger, and everybody wants a slice of the pie. Anime has always been a promotional tool, but you are right in that we're getting more and more low quality adaptations full of CGI garbage that's almost insultingly bad, like in the 3rd season of Overlord.
And that's not even getting into CGI only adaptations like Beastars and Houseki no Kuni...

I'm sure it'll mellow out or they'll get used to making good CGI as things go forward in the future.

Anime was always a pile of shit with some gems in it m8.
I have watched over 30 shows so i consider myself to be an anime expert.

CGI wouldn't even be a problem if the studios put work into at least rotoscoping it so it's not clearly a three dimensional model superimposed over a two dimensional animation.

it's a story written by Gen Urobuchi and animated by Shaft. IF you like otyher things written by Gen Urobochi, like Fate Zero or Saya no Uta, and if you like other things animated by Shaft, like Monogatari, you will also like this show. The people who like Urobochi stories and Shaft animation represent a large, vocal, and visible cross section of Yea Forums.

not gonna try to indoctrinate you, OP. You have a holy right to dislike whatever you want but I have 2 quiestions out of curiosity:
1) Was there any deep thing that you could find in the story?
2) What are your favourite series?
Sorry if this sounds impolite, I'm still learning english

You see, I felt that Kyuubei being all beaten up by the end was actually symbolic that the right cause had lost. A very honest take. Thank you for helping me to enjoy this journey a bit more.

Isn’t “purposefully and tightly-crafted character journey” also a string of buzzwords, my friend? What even is a buzzword, anymore? We live in a time where there is no meridian line between fact and fiction— it’s all a gray, ugly heat-haze of subjectivity.

I agree with your comparison and your ultimate assessment. I disagree that the characters are not mouthpieces. Kyoko has to be the biggest example of one-dimensional writing. Her whole backstory is communicated by telling, rather than showing. The only “evidence” we see in her life of her past poverty and lifestyle is in her eating habits. Everything that she lived is only a justification for her ideology, of which she is a loud and vocal mouthpiece. It’s so bad that the writers practically admitted it was bad when they threw her whole story away in Rebellion. Mami suffers the opposite problem— she has no backstory, so the writers have to constantly remind us that she’s actually vulnerable, even though she never acts that way at all. Not even slightly. Is it really even a front at that point?

>what is the Evangelion of this decade, in your opinion?
There is no Evangelion in this decade. And not even in the previous one, most likely. No one has managed to make a sensation as much as Evangelion did. Evangelion was a very unsual anime in its deep pessimism. Even if in the last episode it seems as if Shinji has found some kind of closure, it isn't relaly the case. The ending of most anime is a finishing line, but the ending of Evangelion barely counts as a starting line: Shinji has merely come to terms with the fact that he can TRY to exist. There can be an attempt, and that attempt might very well end up in failure. Even that much still felt forced and indeed the End of Evangelion ends on a darker note, with Shinji trying to strangle Asuka and then crying like a bitch. Anno was fairly depressed when working on Evangelion and that shows. Most anime nowadays wouldn't want to take risks and be as experimental as that (even in the past, maybe only Tomino did worse than Anno, but Tomino did not capture the psychology of despair as well as Anno did). That's why there is no "Evangelion of this decade". It would be too risky even to try, and why even bother in the first place? So long as the industry shits out isekai fantasy and ecchi shows, it seems to be able to stay afloat. There is no incentive. The 90s were the era right after the golden age of OVAs came to an end: there was something to rebuild, and thus there was more room for experimentation.

Attached: 1561782544695.jpg (500x889, 67K)

I like Shaft animation, think Fate Zero is bretty good (similar character = ideology mouthpiece writing style, but it makes more sense in the context of that series,) and think Gen Urobuchi is a hack writer even today.

1) The problem of entropy is actually the single biggest crisis facing all of existence, as I know, it in this current moment. I give the series massive credit for this. It is the reason the simulacrum we live in came to exist at all.

2) Favorite series? Unironically, they are Evangelion and LoGH. I also enjoy Ashita no Joe and Kaiji massively. Of course, I also watch some more recent, much trashier shows that aren’t nearly as good, like Kakegurui and Black Lagoon. We all have our guilty pleasures.

This can only be called “the right answer.”
I am so glad I made this thread. You are all gentleman scholars.

all of it faggot

Attached: tenaciousgreenpelican.jpg (1920x1080, 215K)

t.speedwatcher

oh fuck off

made in abyss is the Evangelion of 2010's

Dear god this thread is full of bait

Attached: 1444246389764.jpg (306x331, 69K)

How is entropy a crisis?
It's a totally natural thing, present since the laws of universe came to exist.
You sound a little pretentious, my man. Are you a philosphy student?

Entropy is a good thing. Without entropy, the universe as we know it would not exist, because after the big bang, everything would expand evenly and would be a homogeneous cloud of hydrogen. Entropy meant that the universe expanded at different rates in different places, leading to the formation of what would eventually be the first generation of stars. Entropy then made all those stars explode, creating elements heavier than iron and allowing life in the universe to eventually exist.

Are you that LotGH fag who I told that he should watch Rebellion because the original series was just a "Prolog im Himmel"?
You sound exactly like him, and that is the only reason why I am actually going to take this thread seriously.

The applicability of the buzzwords is what matters. Taking "deconstruction" in its most generally used if dubiously accurate meaning to be "has dark twists", then yes, that is the case for the show, but that's not the point. My string of buzzwords is to to indicate that the show has an absence of superfluous characters, side plots, and scenes, so that it can focus on the journeys of the characters, which is the point.

Your focus on backstory and dialogue completely neglects actions and decisions of the characters. Kyoko's backstory is presented verbally, buy you're completely undermining why, how, and the overall context of its delivery. Your suggestion that Mami never acts emotionally insecure is outright false

The one and only! Long story short, I had a shitload of free time in the car today and had over six hours free between shifts. Probably headed to bed soon, though.

I’ve long since graduated college, but that really isn’t relevant. As far as being pretentious is concerned, you can even think of me as “extremely pretentious” if you like. I am, after all, the kind of guy that becomes confused as to why people like certain popular anime that don’t live up to his own, high standards, and makes threads trying to satisfy his curiosity about this phenomenon on Mongolian Basket-Weaving Websites. Thankfully, I was never a philosophy student, or else I might really be a lost cause.

Why is entropy a crisis? That’s an interesting question, so I’ll try to give you a sufficiently interesting, memeworthy answer. The short version is “because it is the only force in the universe that can also end the universe housing our universe,” which would likewise put us on ice. The slightly less-short explanation is that the real reason concerns the topology of our universe, in the technical sense that our universe is located within another universe, as well as a hypothetical, potential reason as to why our universe may have been created in the first place.

Without going into much detail in that regard, here’s a leading question: Why might the existence of death bother an old person? And also, if they could escape death by running to a younger body, wouldn’t they think to do it? It’s a shit example, but you can think of our universe in this sense.

no one's going to read that crap, go to reddit you disgusting shonenshitter

That's a mischaracterization. The expansion of the universe is homogeneous, it's just the particulate content thereof is nonohomogenous due to random fluctuation. Neither of these are inherently tied to entropy, what entropy introduces is a bias in the direction of the physical interactions of those particles, which is what permits causality to exist. A universe without entropy could form what we recognize to be life, but it would do so completely randomly and acausally. Time would also not really exist because time is relative, which means it relies on observation, and observation relies on causality.

*time as a measurement, not necessarily a cosmological phenomenon

The problem with explaining just HOW deep Madoka is that there are so many layers here that build on top of each other. The full picture in its entirety is simply inaccessible without certain foundations, so let us start simple.
The thing I am going to explain to you is not the FULL picture. It is not the REASON why Madoka is so deep, this is merely a facet that you perhaps might appreciate from the way you are talking.

The characters in Madoka can be understood as representations of philosophical positions.

Mami is the unaware unreflected masses. Mami can not be made to understand the great problems and structure of the world without her going insane.
Sayaka is Idealism. Sayaka has her ideals and she is going to pursue them until death.
Kyouko is Darwinism. she got cynical because she was burned in the past. Kyouko is Darwinistic and living under the motto of never letting anyone get close and only caring for herself. Kyouko however actually does not want it to be that way.
QB is Utilitarianism in its ultimate form. In the trolly problem, QB always chooses to save more people, for the greater good.
Madoka is Liberalism, Madoka makes amends to the SYSTEM by improving the conditions, while leaving the framework intact.
Homura is Nietzsche, she reevaluates the values of the world fundamentally, and with that dares to overthrow the SYSTEM in its entirety.

With your talk about entropy, you are actually already on the right track.
You say that entropy is actually a real problem for the world. And that is exactly QB's motivation.
However, Madoka is about the following question: What has value?

Madoka is basically making arguments for the question: "What ought to be."
The structure of existence itself got rewritten multiple times, and there are characters that are setting up the framework of reality itself.
From all stories that I know of, Madoka is probably taking place on the highest scale imaginable - on the scale of value frameworks.

Your "leading question" is precisely the reason why you do not understand Madoka.
Madoka is so much more advanced in its philosophy than something this simplistic and trivial:
> if they could escape death by running to a younger body, wouldn’t they think to do it
Well, yes, OBVIOUSLY. There are no drawbacks.

So here is an actual leading question:
"WHY does the universe have value?"

Like, the reason WHY Rebellion is so divisive among the fanbase is that most people implicitly agree with Madoka. Homura asks Madoka:

"Kaname Madoka. Do you treasure this world? Do you consider stability and order more important than desire?"

This right here is probably the most profound question in Madoka Magica.
As you like to analyze things, let's dissect it:

>Do you treasure this world
Here are two things that are easy to miss but are absolutely non-trivial.
1. "treasure", is a question about VALUE.
2. "world", what even is the world at this point? The universe has been rewritten 2 times already, and the "world" they were living in originally was actually a cruel farm designed by the incubators to harvest energy. The day to day life that Madoka knows exists only as an illusion in front of her, but it is maintained by cruelty and suffering in the background.
The background of that scene shows galaxies, stars, and nebula. Madoka and Homura are standing here in this hallway, but all of that is in a gigantic cold and uncaring universe. The normal life is a very sensitive structure that might break down at any moment.
What Madoka actually treasures is her daily life with her family and friends. THAT is what she values.

Homura has reproduced this daily life that Madoka is ACTUALLY treasuring, in her own world. Her world that has overthrown the fundamental structure of reality in order to allow Madoka to get what she treasures.

>Do you consider stability and order more important than desire?
This is even more pernicious. "stability" and "order". WHAT are those things in this context?
The old system was stable, and it was in order.
The natural order of the world was that magical girls were harvested by QB for energy.
That is what stability and order ACTUALLY mean.
But for Madoka it just means what she thinks it means - that her daily life might exist indefinitely, blissfully unaware about the actual truth of the universe.

Cont.

It says so in the ending song:

"Have you noticed?
That the truth only ever exists in the past?
Hopes, Dreams, Ideas and the future are just selfish fairytales,
of a faraway Silver Garden."

That is the central theme of Madoka.
WHAT HAS VALUE.
Is Homura right? Is the only thing that is actually valuable in the world a happy existence?
Even if we will exist in a happy world that is a lie?
It is basically the same as in the Matrix.

The daily life is maintained by hiding the truth.
But WHY is it bad? Maybe it is better to just exist in this way?

So, this is my response to you, you can take them all as a single post:
I'll wait for your response and then I'll go into details

>Is Homura right?
Yes, Homura is always right.

Finally an intellectual thread for me.

Your description of entropy makes me confused if we are talking about the same things. I was always taught that entropy is just the fact that everything decomposes /dissolves /goes to disorder if there isn't anything that would stop it. And that's a natural phenomenon caused by various forces, not a force itself.
But besides the introduction of entropy which was straightforwardly handed to a viewer, wasn't there really anything else deep you could find in the show?

I fucking love Madoka.

Attached: 1538627769212.jpg (1024x768, 585K)

So what's the matter, OP?
I am here. I can not only match you in """pretentiousness""", but I can also exceed you by a factor of 30-40.
You want to have an "intellectual discussion"? So, go on, have it.

>QB always chooses to save more people, for the greater good
This is such a gross mischaracterization. If you really want to apply the trolley problem as analogy, you have to completely redefine it.

Kyubey is the trolley driver who sells tickets to select few sapient organisms, and then throws them onto the track in front of the trolley because he realized their despair gives him free fuel. But that fuel has toxic emissions that kills other organisms outside the trolley.

The point is that Kyubey's implication that he is an agent of "greater good" is, as with many of his other statements, purposefully misleading. What would a universe shaped by the will of the Incubators look like? Purpose built for one end only: the immortality of their own kind. Why should they concern themselves with the fate of other organisms when it has no bearing on them? All they need is a livestock species to fuel their civilization, the rest can be abandoned to whatever cosmological phenomenon awaits them.

There are three ends in play here:
The Incubator end, where there exists a single hivemind feeding off a farm of suffering amidst the void of heat death. The death of the many, the suffering of the few, for the sake of the one.
The "human" end (in the looser sense of a being capable of altruism and empathy), the faint hope that one might be able to one-up the Incubator's system and run it so that it may sustain all life. The suffering of many for the sake of the many.
The ubermensch end, the warping of reality to optimize the balance of Madoka's free will versus Madoka's happiness. The suffering of one for the sake of one, which incidentally includes the suffering of the few which benefits many as an intermediate step, though that is not the end goal.

I completely agree with what you say here.
And sure, you need to extend the trolley problem in the way you say here.
But you are not OP, now are you?

>I genuinely have no idea what it is that drives people to become Homestuck-level thirsty for this series, and I would really like some perspective from people that can actually slow the fuck down and give me a real opinion.
Rebellion is basically the greatest anime ever made.

>muh philosophy
>Ctrl + F
>1 Nietzche, 0 Buddhism
No post in this thread should be taken seriously.

It's pretty good but probably the most overrated anime in existence. Rebellion was not very good.

>Buddhism
>Muh Samsara
I never liked that interpretation of Madoka tbqh.

It's pretty good but probably the most underrated anime in existence. Rebellion was so good, that anything that is below literally swearing by it is underrating it.

But that's exactly what Homura chooses, and incidentally parallels eternal recurrence.

unironically tldr

>What is the main appeal of the show for you?
It is for moments like these.

Attached: 205326_01_NXUaHM2gVWeUxNR1HAzr8nU2.jpg (1254x1771, 876K)

exactly.
But Samsara has a component that eternal recurrence does not have:
That all life is suffering and the goal is nirvana.
With Nietzsche, the goal is to embrace absurdism.

Homura does the second one.
Homura took power with her own hands, instead of accepting things and dissolving into nothingness.
It is the OPPOSITE of nirvana.
In fact, Homura COULD have gotten exactly that by letting herself be taken away by Madoka.
But she didn't.

If anything, it is a stark rejection of Buddhistic virtues - that Nietzsche would call the worship of death.

TLDR: OP is a faggot.

re:zero is better than madoka and haruhi combined

The villain (Homu) doing something doesn't mean the show's voice endorses it

and then they fucked.

I've also associated the characters as being representatives of different philosophies, but I see them slightly differently.

Kyubey is utilitarian, obviously.
Mami acts in Kantian manner (if my shitty community college course explained his ideas well): Act in a way that would be acceptable if everyone did it. Makes peace when possible, draws firm lines in the sand for the less friendly. She might have some regrets, not saving her parents, but in the end it wasn't a moral fault. Her "breakdown" is an emotional, yet reasonable reaction to finding out that she and her friends are basically a source of evil in the world.
Sayaka is an extreme version of altruism, believing that one should put others above themselves. But ultimately this isn't compatible with the real world, not everyone will sacrifice themselves fully and she gets worn down by carrying the whole world's burden. In Rebellion, as basically a near-omniscient agent of God her role becomes less tragic.
Kyoko is egoism, unlike Sayaka she is much more adaptable to the cruel world and generally handles emotional issues better, but often at the expense of others. She also has a "failing" philosophy though in that she's not really a sociopath and works to help others.
I agree with your Madoka description, but I attributed it more to Christianity. She's good willed, but sees the value in free will and people making mistakes. Through life she learns what it means to live and can thus run the world as God while understanding the plight of everyone else. She lets them make mistakes, the world punishes them, but she's there to forgive them and let them all know it was worth while in the end, even Kyubey.
I also agree Homura is Nietzschean, in the sense that she enforces her will without real regard for the rest. But in the end it's tragic, it's to the detriment of everyone, including herself. She her dream is a Faustian goal and like Lucifer to God, she becomes the world's Satan.

Attached: Kyoko.jpg (480x360, 14K)

Except it isn't.
Homura chooses something different. She's not content with Madoka's world and she doesn't want QB's either. You see, it's all very Hegelian.

The original series can be understood as a dialectic where Madoka offers an antithesis to the system QB set up, changing the world in the process.
Rebellion then forms a second dialectic in Madoka's world clashes with QB's world and in the synthesis both worlds collapse and a third party takes over.

But Hegel only is a framework to put what's happening into words, he doesn't help you ascribe meaning to it.

>Faustian goal
You have never read Faust.

I find one of the shows greatest strengths is that it does not endorse ANY of the philosophies it presents.
There are actually people that went out of it with the impression that Sayaka or QB was right, and we had discussions with people defending those positions here.
I, for once, am a Homurafag, Homura did everything right.

>What I got was a really, really pretty pile of pretentious crap
>basically just an edgy teen complex anime

So basically every anime that has ever and will ever exist? Anime is garbo OP everybody knows this, that's why it has evolved into it's truest form - a mass production of waifus and fap bait. Finding decent anime is like finding a needle in a haystack, only infinitely harder.

I actually understand Madoka as a Hegelian Dialectic of the Magical Girl genre as a concept.

The original series up to episode 10 is an antithesis, a critique.
Episodes 10-12 and Rebellion are a puristic reaffirmation of the core values.
At the end of everything:
Homura IS a magical girl of love and courage - even if she fights with conventional weapons.
And the story ends with those values, that were dismissed in the beginning being elevated as a universal maxim of the universe, namely:

EVEN IF, love and courage are incompatible with the world, that does not mean they SHOULDN'T be.
And so Homura just made it so, by using force.

This. Analyzing anime as if it were a philosophical work is peak autism. That first and foremost goal of anime is entertainment. It may have symbolism and themes that touch on deeper topics, but it will never scratch more than the surface. Of course that would come off as pretentious.

I used to think Mami was Kantian, but she seems far to unreflected by actually represent a philosophy.
I feel that Sayaka even if she is misguided actually has thought out concept that she is following through with. Mami is just a Sheeple.

Madoka is particularly Protestantism not just Christianity as a whole, I called it Liberalism because those values are deeply interconnected - and I mean CLASSICAL liberalism please don't start a /pol/ tier discussion about this, though.

As for Homura:
>But in the end it's tragic, it's to the detriment of everyone, including herself.
Oh, no. I disagree with that completely. It is not at all tragic. It's a glorious victory whose glory echoes through eternity.
If you actually look at it from the BIG scale on the last layer of abstraction when you understand the framework of values that this context makes necessary, then you will see just how monumental this triumph is.

won't argue with that, i first watched madoka and formed most of those thoughts in my edgy teen phase where i thought i was into philosophy. few attempts to read philosophy works later, and i've accepted i'm just into this show for the pretty colors, fun animation, and cute girls.

Nietzsche himself would probably have said that Madoka Magica does a better job of conveying his Ideas then his own Zarathustra.
You are just too stupid to understand it.

Homura is very obviously the character of Dr. Faust. The first episode even spells this out for you in the sequence where it shows how amazing she is at everything. It's a direct reference to the first appearance of Faust.
>Habe nun, ach! Philosophie,
>Juristerei und Medizin,
>Und leider auch Theologie
>Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn.
>Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
>Und bin so klug als wie zuvor;

He's the best at everything he knows everything, he can do anything a person could do. He mastered the arts of magic. But at the end of the day, he's still a poor fool and he still only knows as much as he did before. None of his endeavors led anywhere.

Throughout the series, there only one key differences between Faust and Homura. It's that we see Homura after dealing with Mephistopheles.

What's so precious about MadokaTV is that the ending is the ending to Faust, but only thematically, not literally (that's left for Rebellion).
Faust loses his wager with Mephistopheles and he decides to collect his debt. But God decides to take Faust's soul instead and saves him.
This is paralleled in Madoka, because Madoka's sacrifice redeems all of the girls. "whoever strives faithfully will be redeemed".
But Homura's (Faust's) redemption is still pending, in Rebellion it seems like QB (Mephistopheles) has decided to collect the debt owed. But before he can, Madoka comes and redeems Homura or rather she tries. Homura rejects this redemption.

It's a rejection of the most enduring and central theme of Faust. Faith.

More like it's best to first read Zarathustra and then watch Madoka for a better comparison and understanding. I doubt anyone could fully understand Nietzsche ideas by watching Madoka alone unless you were Nietzsche himself.

Holly shit. Imagine actually watching Madoka BEFORE reading Zarathustra.
It must be totally incomprehensive to them.
Oh, those fouls!

How's your first year at college going?

Ironically, Faust ends with Faust realizing that taking RESPONSIBILITY is the highest moment.
Just like how Homura took responsibility at the end of Rebellion by taking power.

If Homura was taken away by Madoka it would have not been in line with the original themes of Faust.
Faust and Madoka both escaped their fate by taking responsibility for others.
This is also why in the ending to Rebellion Time moves in slow motion - because it is Homura's perfect moment, a world of ultimate agency and power that is created for the sake of others.

hot.

Attached: KyokoHomuLewd.png (1323x850, 772K)

You need a really high IQ do understand the deeper meaning of the Puella Magica universe, not only you have to have to read the Holy Bible, Faust, Nietzsche and Zarathustra, one also has to study the psychology of humor at least until master to grasp what is even happening anymore.

Being a PhD in gender and video games can be as well a great advantage to even start your journey of watching Madoka.

Attached: Screenshot.png (458x1365, 499K)

>Nietzsche and Zarathustra
>and

Attached: SmugxHomu.png (1024x1014, 268K)

That's true, you have to have to read the works of Zarathustra and not only that stupid book from Nietzsche, what are you a fucking pleb?
>thinks he will ever understand meguca

Attached: 231d027ea8918f402878da45ce9d3036.png (670x568, 209K)

>trying to play it off as if you said it ironically
wew

>can't handle high IQ individuals

I love fucking Madoka

>WHY Rebellion is so divisive among the fanbase
It's simpler than that, actually. Rebellion fundamentally divides fanbase into two groups: those with slave and those with master morality. The aspiring Last Man obviously hates the ending. It's brilliant.

I think it's great how I can shitpost about it despite having never watched it.

You are looking into it too much. Just from how popular the show is, it's easy to tell that Madoka isn't some niche intellectual piece exclusively enjoyed by a few chosen people. When a show is this popular, it has to appeal to the centre of the bell curve, there has to be a common denominator.
For an average person, it's a story with an interesting premise to draw you in and a lot of plottwists and cliffhangers to keep your interest. The characters might be one-dimensional, but their struggles are very relatable. The ending ties everything together and is satisfying, but leaves enough ambiguity to keep your interest even after it's over. Everything is accompanied by really nice visuals and music. That's a perfect recipe for a popular show.

Of course, there is more to it if you look below the surface. You can find some entry-level Christian symbolism and references to other works of literature - just like in pretty much any other show that isn't complete mass produced crap, but I don't think it's anything revolutionary in the end. Again, if you want to understand why is the show so popular, you need to think about which aspects appeal to the average watcher. Philosophy and deep analysis certainly aren't among those.

There's nothing preventing you from eventually arriving to the conclusions on your own. Reading Nietzsche might be a shortcut to understanding Madoka, but at the same time it might also end up being a one-way ticket to the "Mount Stupid" - there's so much to Madoka that it's for the best to outright admit that one might never fully understand it.

Exactly this. Absolutely on point.
That is what I was trying to say in that post.
Perhaps it's not too clear when you think about it.

Pic related is oddly true.

Attached: EvolutionOfAMagicalGirl.png (624x396, 347K)

smol brain gang, meguca as anime itself is a cosmic horror entity the human mind can't grasp

Attached: Smol_hero_by_slimyfrick-darqfyb.png (321x350, 77K)

Nah, you’re right OP.

Here is something I never realized before:

Akemi Homura
A.H.
ADOLF HITLER

It's the final truth. EVEN THE LETTER COUNT IT RIGHT

Attached: NekoNaziHomu.gif (500x500, 477K)

I always thought it stands for Absolute Homo

They sure did.
Doujins are all like that for the main series. But I have never seen Magical Records be given the same treatment. Was the game a failure?

Lmfao me too.

Sounds like you could use a little Morning Rescue, OP.

Attached: morning lescue.jpg (606x720, 79K)

OP is a faggot, as always.

Attached: thatsNotHowItWorks.png (500x500, 77K)

I've watched over 100 shows and I honestly agree with you.

I thought my mind would change after 100. but actually a solid majority of the shows I watched were mediocre, and like a handful were worth rewatching.

Homura only do this with Madoka

Attached: q.png (359x277, 95K)

homucifer

>LotGHfag
Come back when you're not underage.

>there are people on Yea Forums who have only watched 100 shows
No wonder the board quality is so low. Only someone like me who has over 200 animes listed on MAL can have a real opinion.

>MAL

Attached: SadMadoka.gif (720x405, 969K)

Wait, we were being serious?

>serious
How new are you? Lurk for 2 more years before posting, unironically. Even if you watched 600 anime, it does not change the fact that you are a fucking newfag

Attached: smugdoka.jpg (492x492, 126K)

What If I've only watched like 50 shows, but I've been here since the rock was cooking

What about the timeline where Hitler cured cancer?

what's wrong with MAL besides mean ratings?

>implying any amount of lurking can change a newfag into an oldfag

it would be like if you lurk on /pol/ for 2 years, but you still don't know who this "Adolf Hitler" guy is... Something with Germany probably.

Yea Forums doesn't change though discussing evangelion and madoka for almost 20 years.

All these "intellectuals" dismissing Sayaka out of hand because she fails.

You guys are real deep and well-read, dismissing the losers like a kid would a jobber in a shounen.

>Madoka for 20 years
Are you stuck in a time loop?

You are right. Sayaka should not be dismissed out of hand.
You should first think about WHY exactly she needs to be dismissed, and only then dismiss her.

Autism it is, then.

>Evangelion and Madoka
>Evangelion AND Madoka
>almost 20 years
>almost

pretty sure there's been 3+ nge threads every day since Yea Forums was fucking created.

Tell me why she should be dismissed.

There are a few Magia Record doujins, but most of the translated ones I've seen are futa
Posting the best Magireco couple

Attached: 1566270085922.jpg (1200x1200, 138K)

Yes, and there have been at least 4+ Madoka Threads every day since Madoka was released-
Gotcha, Evafags.

nice try, /pol/

Ok. In what context do you mean?
As a philosophical position?
Because she is obviously not compatible with reality, which is one of the main points of the show?
That blind fanatical idealism leads you to disaster?

Sayaka "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Miki is a perfect example of that.

But it's precisely Sayaka's idealism and refusal to adhere to the shitty rules of the system that expose the system of needing dire reform in the first place.

"She is not compatible with reality" - not quite true. She is not compatible with the hidden fees and costs of being a Magical Girl. Once she realizes that the end result of slaying witches for grief seeds is allowing familiars to grow into witches too, she stops going for grief seeds altogether. She has resolved to die at this point, sure, but that's because she's recognized the system is fundamentally flawed. And her death, of course, illustrates ANOTHER horrible truth - that magical girls become witches.

This is not a fair system, or equivalent exchange. Her rebellion against it may have resulted in her demise(and also Kyouko's), but it also was the groundwork to change it.

I suppose to talk in your parlance, in Buddhism, they say the greatest saviors are not those who transcend, but those who through sacrifice show others how to transcend.

Without Sayaka, the system doesn't get exposed until it is far too late. Mami never rebels against it enough to figure out anything(and in fact just Old Yellers everyone out of despair when she does), and only Homura Akemi and her word is that which one can rely on to know the system is broken.

Sayaka's idealistic actions and destruction are necessary as a practical demonstration of everything wrong about the system.

Sure, but this is just like saying that Chernobyl wasn't a disaster because it lead to better standards in nuclear power and allowed the study of the ill effects of radiation in the long run.

From a narrative point of view, Sayaka OBVIOUSLY is not to be dismissed as a negative example.

Or perhaps we could say the best comparison would be: Communism is a horrible idea, because we know that it fails and causes great misery for everyone involved.
And we know that from past experience. So while the experience is indeed very vital and History needs to be studied. Communism as an Idea MUST be dismissed.

And in exactly the same vein Sayaka must be dismissed.

Your comparison doesn't work, unless you suppose the Chernobyl melt down was intentional and valued by those who built it.

Sayaka turning into a witch is the system working as intended. Kyubey wants witches. But through Sayakas rebellion, we at least get to see why the system is so fucking horrible, with destruction and calamity as its intent.

This.
How very convenient of you to ignore his comparison with Communism. Nice cherrypicking. And even then, the comparison with Chernobyl is perfectly valid.

The communism point is irrelevant. Sayaka operates as an individual with individual values. She never imposes her values upon others.

You are confusing everything into an incoherent mess.

Chernobyl was the laws of physics working as intended. Therefore it WAS the SYSTEM working as intended.

That is an irrelevant observation. Imposing your values on others is unrelated to the comparison.

I can not believe that I actually have to describe the way comparisons work here now. What you are saying is that if something is not EXACTLY the same way, then it is not a valid comparison.
But that is absolutely not true.
A comparison works by pointing to a situation that shares the DESCRIBED similarities in order to nullify the argument.

You say, in situation A, B and C therefore D
I say, in Situation E there was also B and C but it leads to F instead. Therefore B and C don't necessarily cause D and are likely to cause F instead.

That is the way a comparison works.

Your argument is:
>Sayaka's idealistic actions and destruction are necessary as a practical demonstration of everything wrong about the system.
And other statements that are equivalent to it.
THEREFORE Sayaka's position must not be dismissed.

I say:
>The communist's/Chernobyl engineers actions and destruction are necessary as a practical demonstration of many things wrong about human compatibility with communism/the security of nuclear reactors.
BUT, therefore Communism AND the disregard for security in nuclear reactors MUST be dismissed.
That is a valid comparison.

You have never mentioned the qualification that the action must be individualistic and that the system must be intentional by a third party. Which are both completely arbitrary and don't make any sense what so ever. It sounds like you are trying to make something up on the fly.

I'm sorry, but comparisons don't work according to your arbitrary rules.

It's magical girls for people who don't like magical girls. Like how DDLC was VNs for people that don't like VNs or FGO is Fate for people that don't like Fate.

Holy shit, dude., you brought actual discussion in this shithole of a board, the only way I can show respect is by giving you my pov on madoka:
First of all, Madoka is a very shallow show, an in depth analysis is just a waste of time, it may touch upon themes like entropy and such, but those are only decorations for the story which is ultimately badly written, e.g. the story has no reason to exist, beyond it wanting to be a bunch of edgy shit happening. the themes are just there for lip service, there's nothing beyond that.

another thing I can discuss about is how you try to overthink series, sure is a fun excercise, but you have bear in mind that anime at it's best can be considered art, and that art is not equivalent of philosophy, it may take elements of it and execute them in a good way there are many series that do this, such as: Eva, Lain, GiTS, Kaiba, LotGH, Teknolyze, etc. but none of those state a new pov on phylosophy. In conclussion, enjoy manga and anime all you want, enjoy overthinking themes and all, but don't waste your time on schlock like madoka or aot.

/thread

From the first sentence enough you know that this was written by someone huffing his own farts.

>entropy
>a theme
uhhh

Madoka is fundamentally an exploration of the most fundamental philosophical issues:
Do good and evil exist?
What is selfishness, and is it really bad?
What should be?

The characters in Madoka are fundamentally NOT flawed.
It's the world that is flawed.
Even Sayaka and QB who are arguably the most flawed characters in the series are Manifestations of Ideals and always acts on their conviction without fail.
Madoka is about those ideas.
It is a battlefield of Ideas.

I'm not studying philosophy, bear with me:

Kyoko is very much cynical and Darwinistic in the beginning, but she ends up understanding that there is no destination at the end of that path.
Mami and Sayaka are idealistic and remind me of Kant and his followers (I'm honestly not an expert on them), but they end up getting crushed by the world.
QB is 100% pure Ullitarism.
Madoka is Jesus Christ.
Homura is Nietzsche.

I only scratched the surface, there are many more layers beyond that.
And yes, the characters show angst and weakness, but generally, Madoka is not about pulling your strength together and overcoming something - NO, Madoka is about WHAT is actually right in the end.

Madoka, Rebellion, ends with the question open: Who was right? Who was wrong? And does that even matter?
Its an exploration, and it is truly profound.

Now, if you have no interest in philosophy, in real truly fundamental philosophy, then you won't get much out of Madoka beyond just a
"deconstruction with a story(that you won't be able to relate to), great visuals and sound and cute characters"

But it really has that kind of content, and it has a LOT of it, and THAT is what makes it truly groundbreaking.

Is this you?

Attached: 1353376426606.jpg (508x599, 63K)

yeah, my bad I'm a bit busy rn and find this thread interesting

>I don't understand Madoka, the post.
Wew.

Finally, someone who appreciates Madoka for what it is.

Attached: AndYouDon'tSeemToUnderstand.jpg (1920x1080, 565K)

>BIG BRAIN GOOD

yurifags

sorry, I might watch for the nth time this weekend, this time I might finally get it. Can you give some advice to understand more complex anime such as snk?

I confess that is pasta, though someone wrote it in earnest some months ago. I don't like Madoka fans on this board as a whole but I do admire that they try for some intellectual merit in their posts even if it turns out like word salad a lot. I post huge text walls in Utena threads so I can relate.

>And don't even get me started on Rebellion, which I found to be so utterly bad and predictable that it was almost shocking.

This thread just proves to me that Yea Forums is even worse at analysing a movie than Yea Forums.

After reading through this I am now convinced that nu-Yea Forums has now been fully taken over by brainless troglodytes who are too fucking dumb to even analyse a straightforward movie like Rebellion.
I dont even know what to say. You fail so hard at following the movie that a handful of scenes where characters SHOW instead of TELL you their motivations you are completely lost.

Homuras Motivation during Rebellion is exactly the same as it was at the end of original series: Discontent with the Status Quo of Madoka becoming Madokami and sacrificing herself in order to become Magical Girl Buddha who guides Magical Girl Souls to Magical Girl Heaven before they lose their souls and get turned into pure energy and harvested by the Incubators. Sure, she is in love with Madoka, in fact she is a raging lesbian but getting into Madokas pantsu is not the driving force behind her actions. In fact we can see her put a lid on that too, so she can concentrate on getting the job done because it gets in the way of saving Madoka as much as other megucas go.
We have a little scene at the end of the original series with Homura and Tatsuya and Junko where we can see a glimpse of Homura not being happy how things turned out and that Madoka isnt around anymore, but she is accepting it because she believes that Madoka is happy with her choice and that sooner or later despite no one knowing or remembering her she will meet her again.

Now Rebellion comes around and already in the intro we see some scenes that visually not only foreshadow Homuras actions but also once again reiterate her position at the ending of the series: That its a subpar ending according to Homuhomu.

Attached: 09df94a8738e11bc90e59be1f67f53e6.jpg (1200x1286, 239K)

CONT

There is a scene in the middle in the movie where amnesiac Madoka and slowly-getting-her-memories-back-yet-still-not-quite-there Homura have this little talk about family and friends and leaving them behind. This is a very important scene because its here where we see through Amnesiac-Madoka that family and friends are important to her and she wouldn't want to leave them behind. So Homura who was already bitter about Madoka´s Sacrifice not being the ending she wanted for her gets confirmed by Madoka herself that she ignored her own happiness for the greater good. It is this scene what will later lead to the ending of Rebellion being what it is: Its not Homura sealing Madokami because she wanted steamy lesbian sex, it is the same what drove her to dive through countless timeloops: Selfless love for Madoka. Love that is ready to sacrifice even her own future, her very own soul so Madoka can spend some more time with the ones she cares about.

In the ending it is implied that she was thinking about freeing Madoka from Madokami ever since the original series, as stated above, it was also confirmed to her that Madoka isnt exactly happy but at least at peace with herself with her role as Madokami. So maybe she did, maybe she was indeed trying to figure a way out to help Madoka and the plot by the Incubators just played into her hands, so its not exactly an asspull it was all set up and foreshadowed.
There are multiple lines kinda strewn in about that are part of longer info-dumps that are also relevant later on, when it is revealed that the Incubators have been trying to fuck around with the Law of Cycles since the very beginning they mention that "if we can observe it we can interfere with it", it is a sentence that is later mirrored by Akuma Homura who states this is second time she sees reality getting rewritten, it is kinda implied that "she observed it, so she can interfere with it".

Attached: 1396027763626.png (500x453, 137K)

CONT

Another important clue is that what Akuma Homura is exactly and this is something she flatly explains to the viewer (which the Incubator confirms in the very same scene): The final step in the evolution of a magical girl. Acceptance that the pain, grief and bitterness she felt are all part of the love that she feels for Madoka.

So Homura not only did nothing wrong, she did in fact every single thing right. All her tears, sweat and blood and strength poured into achieving her goal: Not to eradicate Madokami or have Madoka to herself, its to let Madoka be happy. A normal teenage surrounded by her friends and family. Out of love for her.

Homura did nothing wrong is not just a meme, she succeeded beautifully even if just for a time.

Attached: 044342.jpg (2000x1420, 943K)

The main theme of Madoka Magica is the transvaluation of values.
If you understand what this sentence actually means, then you might have a chance to understand at least some facets of it.

>some months ago
I believe it has been more than a year since I wrote that at this point desu~

To put simple: is edgy, it appears to be intelligent, has good animation and some lesbic undertones. Thats the appeal the show has. There's nothing deep or philosophycal about it, stop overanalysing stuff user, go have friends or something.

>At the time, I felt very strongly that the show was almost all style, with very little substance to analyze

You must’ve had Madoka confused for Evangelion.

hmm, you talking about how some avlues are transformed into other values, like little girl despair transforms into fuel for the universe, so it doesn't go extinct? ohhhh, it's like matter is never destroyed but transformed?

It’s the greatest story ever told.

No, despair is not a value.
Try again.

>missing the point THIS badly.
Oh, user. It's really embarrassing.

>Are you a gay man/ tranny?
Do people really think they're the same demographic? they hate each other

Why does it always feel like half the people in these threads have never even watched the anime?

Because they just didn't understand it.
It's too hard a subject for them.
So they come off as if they have never watched it.
I for once, am an Idealist, so I refuse to believe that Yea Forumsnons are so infinitely retarded to actually go here and talk garbage without having watched it.
On that note, if someone here actually has not watched it and is giving """opinions""" about it, kill yourselves, unironically, kill yourselves.

>idealist
You're not the Chernboyl guy, I hope? Cause to compare Sayaka's fall to what is historically speaking a stunning display of apathy and incompetence is definitely not that idealistic.

I think it’s more about the fact that analyzing a movie purely for the entertainment of an user who has never actually bothered to watch the series for himself is kind of disheartening and doesn’t feel worthwhile. I consider myself to be an expert on this anime and I haven’t even bothered to answer anything you’ve asked in this thread even one time because it’s simply not worth the time. What’s happening is you’re getting responses from the lowest iq fans of the series and unless you actually watch the series for yourself or at least ask your questions so that they’re fun for the person answering you won’t ever get a legit discussion.

because it's really boring

You didn’t know? About 80% of people on Yea Forums discuss Madoka Magica without having ever watched a single episode.

Well, this time I felt like I owed OP a detailed answer, as he watched it on my suggestion.
However, he has gone to sleep before he could read my posts, so I'm keeping this thread alive for now.
That's why we have an actual discussion here now.

>I am a long-time lover of philosophy and storytelling in anime, and enjoy doing deep analysis on anime as a literary exercise.
>Look, I know that I am basically the real-life equivalent of Rick Sanchez, or perhaps his anime equivalent (Dr. Nigger,) and that I have basically already given myself away as a chuuni with a PHD in anime metaanalysis, but please hear me out.
You're either a troll or an obnoxious retard, so I won't star in this thread any longer.
To quickly and tersely answer your question, Madoka has a pretty good plot and ambiance, with obvious references to Faust. From a tropey Magical Girl begining, the slow rise of uneasiness, then sadness and despair is well done and a good tragedy. The characters, without being astonishing, play their parts well. The interactions with Madoka and her family (especially her mother) are touching considering her final sacrifice.
tldr, it has an interesting plot and twists, a good ambiance and nice fitting visuals.

but it has value, I think you are missing that, the girls gain that despair because of the things they are experiencing, that despair is obtained, thus it has value, you might rewatch it again so you can see it.

Why haven't you watched Rebellion?

>be pretentious faggot
>write a 4000 character effortpost yet manage to say nearly nothing at all
>call other things pretentious
lol

It was a show with good emotional payoff. It made you care about the characters even if they weren't "omg 3complex5u" due to 20 episodes of drawn out character exposition (contrary to your opinion, this is a good thing). They had clear motivations and ideals you could identify with. Also the romance was wholesome.
> literary girl in real life?
Yes. The series seems to have been better received by women than men, so idk maybe it just didn't appeal to the cumbrained mind of male anime fans?
>or is it just a meme that it's the GOAT?
No, it is objectively one of the top anime of all time. I want to hear what your top pick is, it'll make for a good laugh.

Attached: 1471694811081.jpg (640x640, 114K)

>compare Sayaka's fall to what is historically speaking a stunning display of apathy and incompetence is definitely not that idealistic.
Not at all the comparison he made. I'm not sure if you're disingenuous or merely stupid, but stop embarrassing yourself.

The characters in Madoka are absolutely amazing. Stop spreading that stupid YouTube meme. For a twelve episode series where the same month is repeated for every character except one the characters in this series are very well done. The problem people like you have is you’re comparing characters from a 12 episode anime to 25-600 episode anime series.

Attached: 81aabe8af04082e5406b5c70b779db84.png (1087x777, 826K)

HAS value is not the same as IS a value.
Holly shit. I REALLY hope you are merely trying to troll me.
If you are actually this retarded then remove yourself them the gene pool.

I mean, you invoke Chernobyl, you're gonna have people talk about Chernobyl and the specific circumstances behind it.

Otherwise you're just being a tyrant demanding people accepting certain elements from your invoked outside information, while ignoring others.

>I want to hear what your top pick is
LotGH, unironically

LUL SAFE ANSWER MUCH?

>I want to hear what your top pick is, it'll make for a good laugh.
Read his posts, it's LotGH unironically.

so should i just be like wtf i hate logh and rick and morty now because some pretentious guy likes it as well

even ignoring the 5d trolls trolling trolls element that strikes me as stupid

my favorite anime is slayers btw

Attached: lina-inverse-arrives.png (672x371, 226K)

but then in the realm of the transvaluation of values, what is the value being transvaluated into fuel for the universe?

I can't believe people like that fucking show about the blue haired drunk who takes that brown haired guy on crazy fantastical adventures

And does the show really have to keep reminding me of the drunk's creative capacities and that they're a god? Seriously fuck Konosuba

Attached: konosuba aqua.jpg (1200x993, 230K)

>you're just being a tyrant demanding people accepting certain elements from your invoked outside information while ignoring others
That's calling cherrypicking data, and I didn't do that. And you didn't even point out HOW I would be doing it.
And you sound like a complete retard.
Not as in "you are a retard" insult, but actually 70 IQ a mentally challenged person.
The only time I saw something this retarded was when we had the discussion about Madoka being gender inverted. And it ended with OP spamming a link to a study because the other idiots were too retarded to formulate an argument and simply made unreasonable claims out of thin air.
That is what you do. Are you the same person?

You wrote so much, yet said so little. Congratulations. I've never seen anyone with a poorer grasp of writing than you.

none. And I reaffirm my hope from before.

enlighten me please I don't wanna be a brainlet my whole life

m.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Ms9tUwyQ0

Spooky!

Attached: 6BF86B25-EF5E-4892-8ACA-D33D49D90A20.jpg (1004x1208, 115K)

it has too many layers, dude, my mind can't deal with that at the moment, guess gotta be a brainlet my whole life...

selflessness is a value.
hapiness is a value.
friendship is a value.
Stability and order are values.
A value is something that you yourself as a person value.

One of the central topics of philosophy is the question:
"What ought to be?"
And Madoka most of all is about the transvaluations of those values in the final instance.

When and how is selflessness a value?
Are stability and order more important than desire?

At this point I hardly even know what you're trying to argue beyond "You're retarded for not understanding or agreeing with my comparisons."

And no, I wasn't involved in the gender bender argument, but it seems like a promising avenue of conversation. What was the argument in that thread? I've only been involved in threads with male Madoka in a cheeky harem sense.

As long as you know that Humura didn’t do anything wrong you should be okay. You don’t have to understand it right away. You’ll eventually come to understand why Homura did the correct thing but until then just pretend you already know she’s in the right.

Do you guys think Madoka likes Sayaka or Homura more as a friend?

Depends on the Madoka

Attached: Sayakacm.jpg (480x360, 40K)

Attached: tumblr_makm7fYcDq1rxe57eo1_500.jpg (497x600, 294K)

The argument was among the lines:
All girl characters in Madoka Magica act like boys.
(Sayaka is being a total white knight character)
All male characters in the series act like girls.
(Kyosuke being the princess in another castle)

Also, the observation that Madoka's parents have reversed roles and Madoka's mother playing the wise father for her.

Therefore all characters are gender inverted in the series, and it is, therefore, reverse Yaoi.
The argument never went very far because the other side claimed that there are no biological differences between men and women and therefore the premise of the argument is groundless and refused to look at studies that showed the opposite to be the case.

Attached: ReverseYaoi.jpg (500x647, 168K)

At the end of the magia song in the movie as she walks past all her friends at the end she walks pas them in this order.

Mami
Kyoko
Sayaka
Homura

And out of all those Homura is the only character in the song to reach out to her.

maybe, the real madoka magica were the friends we made along the way. gotta pretend that Homura did nothing wrong from now on, thanks user, I hope one day I can be as insightful as you

Kyoko and Sayaka are opposites. Sayaka made a selfish wish and made others suffer for it while Kyoko made arguably the most selfless wish and lost everything for it. I’m just saying this because I think Sayaka gets too much credit when she probably should be the most hated character.

You are retarded because you don't follow the rules of logic consistently.
It is impossible to make a comparison apriori under the conditions that you espouse.
Furthermore, you dismissed the comparisons on completely arbitrary ground that were never even suggested to be an element of the argument in the first place.

Hey! You’re already messing up! You’re not PRETENDING she did nothing wrong you Mickey Mouse fuckhouse. She DIDNT do anything wrong.

My wife Kyōko has got the best ass.

what does that mean, how is it that abstarct concepts such as the ones you mentioned, are values but despair is not?

Technically you could value despair.

but she did, that's the only thing clear right from the start

Try watching the anime instead of looking up YouTube reviews and reading wiki for all your information.

t. Doesn’t understand Homura’s heart

I'd agree that yeah, they act a lot like boys. But Magical Girl Series in general do that. "Magic" in general is a good excuse to make a womanlet stronger than Chad Thundercock at 6 point five feet.
Alright. Perhaps we'll have better conversations in the future.

Attached: a1e1973b0f79127066d95afd8ec68dbe.jpg (930x744, 120K)

Nobody does..

oh come one, I've only watched those after watching the anime and the movie at least 4 times

That’s what everybody says.

Despair is a physical psychological phenomenon. It exists. It is a IS.
friendship is also a physical psychological phenomenon that exists.

But per default, they are both not values. They only become values once someone values them.
Is someone wants something to be the case, then it is VALUED by that person.
And this makes it a value.
As in "I value friendship" usually means that you value friendship for yourself. Which is a selfish value.
But you could also value friendship as a concept. For example, if your enemy is friends with his friends, you can still admire this quality about him. In that case, it is an absolute value.
That's roughly the way values work.

Don't make it more complicated then it is. TECHNICALLY is very technical in this case. You could also value any arbitrary thing and you could also make the case that QB values despair, but that would also be wrong because he does not value it as a value but as a means to an end. And that makes it not a "value", as only something that is an end in itself can be a value.

>>

The facts are a very small amount of people who have watched this anime ever even come close to understanding it. It’s one of the few true “deep” anime series in the industry and anybody who thinks Homura was in the wrong doesn’t get the point of this series or straight up hasn’t watched it. It’s a simple and as clean cut as that. I know it’s not easy to hear but that’s just how it is. If you think Homura did wrong you should probably ACTUALLY watch Madoka Magica.

>believing in objective truth

Attached: 1411445188544.png (235x251, 48K)

Unless you’re an animal that’s how it should be.

>believing in chaos

Your argument wasn't even coherent, to begin with. You only showed that the things Sayaka demonstrated were valuable as experience or data.
But that does nothing to justify their validity in the slightest.
It is completely unrelated.
Lot's of people did stupid things in the past that they thought was right. The only thing that Sayaka did that even WAS valuable was to allow others to dismiss her in the first place.
It was entirely a non-argument.

Kyubey would be disappointed..

"Could it be, that you haven't yet realized...
That the truth only exists in the past?
Hopes, dream, ideals and the future,
are just selfish fairytales of a distant silver garden."
-- Madoka Magica Rebellion, Kimi no Gin no Niwa

>denying objective truth

Leftie-braindamage at its worst.

Attached: cbaa9652a0b964c37d522449d22aa887.jpg (595x627, 127K)

Humans are incapable of objectively grasping truth, at best we are capable of approximating it. Look at how many conflicting views exist in this world, and most of them rest on their own set of assumptions of what is true.
The idea of "objective truth" is an enlightenment era construct. It's not just leftists that reject it, but pretty much all non-liberals.

Let's flip this a bit: What character would you say is valuable, and why?

I think what they meant by that is the future is undecided so it’s anti destiny in a way. Madoka plays up fate but Humura basically says “fuck dat” and does as she pleases until she gets her way.

>valuable
Like the concept of a character being "valuable" does not make sense without a context.
In what context "valuable"?
As a person in their fictional universe?
As a vital component of the story?
As a representation of a philosophical position?
OR actually the philosophical position as a nonhypothetical static maxim?

Humans make truth. That’s part of being human. We built it.

Shipping

Attached: 1562337704859.png (500x647, 318K)

Attached: __sakura_kyouko_and_tomoe_mami_mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_drawn_by_maru_takeo__c22d1657429618ee4b704 (840x600, 370K)

Hmm. Alright, I'll put the ball in your court: What do you think people misunderstand the most when it comes to Madoka, and why?

objective truth DOES exist:
The following sentence is objectively true:

If statements imply themselves, then statements imply themselves.

This is the application of the law of identity on itself, using only itself as a requirement. A tautology.
That sentence is absolutely true, in all timelines, universes and hypothetical constructs that might exist.
And no man, god or whatever could ever prevent it from being absolutely true.

In fact, ALL of mathematics and logic is absolutely true in the same way.

The scale that the story is on.
They try to apply their slave morality on a context where the framework of the universe has been overthrown and made variable.
It's hilarious and sad in its ignorance at the same time.

Would you mind giving me a recurring slave morality argument that bugs you? Is it the Anti-Homura stuff?

shit user, thanks to you now I can see some of the things hidden in this truly thinking man show, they were hidden in plain view, I feel so grateful to you, user. you are a true philosophy connosieur

GACHA ANIME WHOOOOOOOO

GET HYPED

Have you actually watched HnK?

Nirvana as a goal is not a component of samsara, it's Buddhist ideology on the subject of samsara. Samsara is merely the cyclical nature of life and suffering. The show never shies away from connecting existence with suffering, to the point that an apparent reduction in suffering is associated with a displacement of that suffering elsewhere. The set of values applied towards that subject may be different, but the subject itself is the same. Also, eternal recurrence is a bit more literal than the show portrays.

Your description of Homura is correct, but where you say Homura's rejection of nirvana makes her circumstance not samsara, I say that it means she embraces samsara in an amor fati kind of way.

Do you disagree that Homura's existence is founded upon cyclical rebirth and suffering? That this is not what she chose?

this is actually an interesting read I haven't considered.
It's pretty good.

However the reverse yaoi thing falls flat, because the character dynamic of yaoi isn't male characters falling in love with each other. Just like yuri isn't just lesbian anime girls.

>Is it the Anti-Homura stuff?
Yea, most of it.
Saying that Homura is evil because of what she did.
What they don't consider is that the world at that point is in a condition where something like "just living a normal life is good", does simply not apply.
They consider Homura to be bad because what she did was to actually take power herself. And do what has to be done with that power and responsibility.
And all their life they have been thought that THAT is evil. And that is why they unreflectively parrot it.

Yea, I could not more agree with what you said
>amor fati kind of way
That reminds me of an argument we had here a long time ago about the possibility of
"Ai Yo", referring to "Amor fati", as Homura definitely archived amor fati, and it is said to be a quality that the Übermensch possesses, and to quote Zarathustra:
"Ihr KÖNNT es nicht verstehen" - "You can not understand it."
Sounds very similar to Homura's
"This feeling is mine alone, no one could possibly understand"

Yea, the reverse Yaoi kind of thing was in the context of Madoka and Homura being reminiscent of Akira and Satan from Devilman.

Yes, I have. It would have been better if it had a traditional 2D adaptation, simple as. As far as 3DCG goes, it's cream of the crop thanks to it's excellent storyboarding and directing, but the 3DCG artstyle brings the entire thing crashing down amidst stiff, awkward 3D models.

Well put. Only another Übermensch could possibly fully understand Homura. Not Butcher, nor Nietzsche, were he alive, and most certainly not some semi-retarded faggot OP.

If objective truth doesnt exist there is no point in ever having an argument since everything is subjective.
At this point I legitmately cannot tell if you are pretending to be retarded or actually retarded by saying you want a discussion and then killing to very premise needed to have a discussion.

Personally I think its the second.

Attached: cantbehelped.jpg (709x480, 72K)

Attached: __sakura_kyouko_and_tomoe_mami_mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_drawn_by_jing_hu__b1cab1cd7a73e2289af1048a (744x525, 198K)

>Do you disagree that Homura's existence is founded upon cyclical rebirth and suffering?
Yes, actually. I do.
Because Homura isn't reborn, she is on a straight path from the beginning to end, constantly working towards one goal and one goal only. There's no cycle, it's a straight line.
As pointed out earlier, Homura's existence is more akin to Faust's than anyone else's. She's on a turbulent path, that leads her in only one direction. Trying again is not rebirth, but simply another step forward.

>That this is not what she chose?
It's debatable if it was her choice, but it ultimately doesn't matter. Because at the point in time we meet her she understands that she doensn't have a choice. She understands that all she can do is move forward and if she fails try once again. Because if she gives up, she dies, to her this is near the beginning of her personal story.
And this is why Homura is so much like Dr. Faust. She can't stop moving, because if she stop aiming to save Madoka, she dies. Just like Faust has to keep going along with the things Mephistopheles wants to show him, because if he's content with what he has Mephisto takes his soul.

Devilman is also very obviously not yaoi, it's just a gay love story. "yaoi" doesn't mean "gay anime men" despite what people might want to tell you.

>gay love story
What would you say are the hallmarks of that?

Ironically, I would call a gay love story "Yuri" and just faggots having a go at each other "Yaoi".
It's because usually, Yaoi represents female fantasy.
And Yuri represents male fantasy.
The notable exception is Citrus, which is pretty much Yaoi, while being Yuri, but was actually written by a girl. So I would say that Citrus is Yaoi.
But ironically, the whole concept shows that if Yuri is male love represented usually by females, and Yaoi is the opposite, then that would actually make Yuri gays, and Yaoi lesbians. Both portrayed by the inverted gender.
Therefore Yuri is Yaoi and vice versa.
This contemplation is where the term ReverseYaoi originates from.

>Look, I know that I am basically the real-life equivalent of Rick Sanchez, or perhaps his anime equivalent (Dr. Nigger,) and that I have basically already given myself away as a chuuni with a PHD in anime metaanalysis
You're so blatantly underage, holy shit

The characters in fiction that are most like Homura are Thanos from the MCU and Caius from Final Fantasy 13-2.

Notice that all of them are:
1. Violet.
2. Use a gem of power in their hand:
Homura has her soul literally on her hand.
Thanos has the infinity gauntlet on his hand.
Caius has his giant sword that contains his power in his hand.
3. All of them have a singleminded goal that they are willing to GRAB power with their own hands, which is why the hand is their symbol.

Attached: Caius_on_Throne.jpg (1000x563, 97K)

That bastard Pygmalion really lucked out, huh?

>Homura is just like Thanos
but that's just a theory, A GAME THEORY
like and subscribe
see you next time on ANIME THEORY

Well, if we are lucky then AI might make our waifus real, never give up hope.

forgot the pic

Attached: EternalMadoka.jpg (500x500, 51K)

>What is the appeal of Madoka Magica
/u/, everything else is people deluding yourself.

Perhaps what Homura really wanted to tell us, was:
AI will make your waifu real someday, Yo.
That's the true depth of Madoka Magica, but that much is completely lost to plebs.

Attached: AiYo.jpg (500x711, 124K)

When did Kyubey ever say he only cared about his own civilization?

Yuri is that which is pure. Citrus certainly doesn't fulfill that requirement, given its trashy nature. Calling it Yaoi isn't that far-fetched.

Ah yes, I'm sure he's just being considerate of whoever inhabits universe 10^100 years from now, as opposed to trying to preserve his immortal existence. I'm sure that him stating his concerns about mankind related to heat death (which will occur in roughly 10^100 years) to Madoka was honest truth, despite him being perfectly okay with sacrificing the entire planet and all living organisms on it just to harvest Madoka's energy. Kyuubey is such an altruistic being!

Your entire post is only conjecture and speculation. The people spreading this retarded meme always apply their own headcanon to him. The show never hinted at it even once.

An answer that seems silly at first, but is actually the correct one.
In timelines 4+ Madoka and Homura barely interact, so Sayaka obviously wins in those.
In timeline 1 (and possibly 2-3) they become good friends, but it is unclear just how good.
And of course in the final timeline Madoka sees through all other timelines with her god powers and finally understands how much does Homura love her. Heck, the episode title is "my dearest friend" and it sure as hell does not refer to Sayaka.

She gets credit because she makes mistakes. Many mistakes actually, like every human. Because of that she is the most relatable character.

>It would have been better if it had a traditional 2D adaptation
Except it wouldn't
Even with the limitations of cg (jap cg especially), it was the only way to satisfactorily adapt HnK
Ishihara's art is way too detailed to feasibly adapt into a 2d anime within a reasonable budget, so while it would have been better, it probably would have never *been* in the first place

There's also the scene in the Church where she rejects Kyouko's hedonistic philosophy. She refuses to let familiars escape to become witches, and ultimately is determined to do as much good as she can before dying.

>Except it wouldn't
>so while it would have been better, it probably would have never *been* in the first place
So you concede that a 2D animated version of HnK would have been better.

I don't think that's mutually exclusive from her love of Madoka. Madoka is the one responsible for creating Homura's identity. One's decisions are the product of one's own will, but it was fate that permitted that will in the first place. Given the extent of Homura's deification of Madoka, it would not be unreasonable to say she holds a degree of equivalence between Madoka and fate. Her amor fati is her amor Madocae; it is because of Madoka that she has the opportunity to achieve her greatest existence.

>she is on a straight path from the beginning to end, constantly working towards one goal and one goal only. There's no cycle, it's a straight line
Cyclical narratives always involve the idea of breaking the cycle. Whether or not the cycle actually is broken varies from story to story, and may be left ambiguous. In the TV series, Homura's only escape from the cycle by her own power is death, and she realizes that ultimately. There is no end for her, only pursuit. Madoka has to break the cycle for her, by liberating her of that goal.

However, in Rebellion, she comes to realize that without that goal, her existence is meaningless. So Homura creates a new cycle, the endless struggle for a world where Madoka can be happy. Eternity is not an end. What will Homura do when Madoka regains her power? Fight, tear her apart, and begin the cycle anew. And that is very much what Homura chose, because choosing not to die is always a choice.

>what I read
This thread
>what I expected
Shit thread
>what I got
Quality discussion
Thank you OP for making my day slightly better, even if you opinion is shit.

Reminder that the Apple ist not an Apple.
And that “sticks” are actually cigarettes

Yes but also that it would never happen in the first place so what we got is good enough
Assuming it would be good 2d, even, and not *quality*

>Kyubey mislead Sayaka about witches in order to get her and Madoka to contract
>Kyubey mislead Kyoko about saving Sayaka so that she'd die, putting more pressure on Madoka to contract
>surely this means Kyubey wasn't misleading Madoka while pressuring her to contract

Based, Madoka is shit.

It's simply because it is a mahou shoujo for edgy teenagers.

QB never outright lies. He tricks people and omits facts all day, sure, but he never makes outright false claims. Why would he now?

Actually watching it would be overkill, plebs.
But you could just read this thread at this point

stupid edgy teenager

I actually think he throws down some pretty damn good deals. Especially compared to other wish granters from other anime.

You're talking about his means, not his ends. And yes, his means are very unethical but "the ends justify the means" is a main point of his character. Applying human selfishness to him is a lazy reduction of his character. The show mentions that the humans and the incubators have extremely different values about 50 times per episode.

Like clockwork, every single time someone complains about rebellion they inevitably demonstrate the flowerfield scene that literally spells it out for you in explicit dialogue flew over their head.

He never outright states that he will share the energy with other civilizations, just discusses entropy and leads the audience into inferring that conclusion. Congratulations, you're no more clever than the thousands of girls who fell for his honeyed words.

If he could make a planet killing witch to farm energy from every life-bearing planet he found, that's exactly what he'd do. Why would he care about biodiversity? He's an emotionless hivemind incapable of empathy.

If I have cancer could I wish for something else besides curing my cancer and would becoming a magical girl itself cure the cancer instead since they’re just basically shells?

Try actually watching it?

Yes, probably. It is implied that you can spend magic to fix your body (like homura fixing her eyesight), but not sure if that would work on cancer. You could try asking QB about that.

>reverse yaoi
What the fuck is this thread

Attached: D9dm8tSU0AAnOP1.jpg orig.jpg (2048x1987, 268K)

>This. Analyzing anime as if it were a philosophical work is peak autism
You are saying like that's a bad thing

>QB never outright lies
This
>Do you know how many civilizations fill this universe, and how much energy they use in a single moment? And someday, you humans will be able to leave your planet and join all of us.
This line at the very least shows he had the other civilizations in mind, and since he doesn't outright lie, he probably was considering them.

>gender inversion
Peak fart huffing is what's happening

>You're talking about his means
No, I am not in the least. Absolutely asinine of you to suggest otherwise. Your entire post is rendered moot.

He also exaggerates the truth as well, but only enough that he can still claim he wasn't wrong.

>he probably was considering them.
As the means of countering entropy? Sure.

Restart anime never

You mean the study that was locked behind a paywall and nobody could read it?
Yeah I was there. Shit was retarded.

was meant for , not And saying the rest of the post is moot is a nice way of dodging arguments you can't refute.

It's moot in relation to my post, and double so if it wasn't even responding to it, you literal dumbass.

vocaroo.com/i/s1V7uL3evkRm

Attached: sayaka.gif (500x427, 497K)

If they’re hollow how would cancer even effect them?

What retarded meme? What headcanon? Be more specific, because your entire post is a meaningless non-argument, even though in your head it might seem otherwise.

I ate oatmeal with bananas for this breakfast.
This is an objective truth.

It's not moot in relation to Can you refute it or are you scared of losing an internet argument?

So basically Mami could have used her wish on something else except basically wishing not to die and being a magical girl would have saved her life regardless?

>The idea of "objective truth" is an enlightenment era construct. It's not just leftists that reject it, but pretty much all non-liberals.
For religions words of gods and holy texts are objective truths.

Yeah, she's fucking retarded. Her and Ren from Magireco.

It's headcanon because people pretend Kyubey doesn't care about any civilization other than his own. They never implied this in the show, and remember he doesn't say things that are outright false.

I take a degree of issue with Nietzsche's description of master versus slave morality because it comes off as hypocritical. Master morality can only truly exist in a vacuum of morality, that is that the first beings who critically applied valuation to concepts are the only ones who can form a master morality. Once formed, that morality will become the basis to which other valuations are compared: individuals may value particular concepts, more less, or equally relatively speaking, in other words: re-sentiment, the basis of slave morality. How does an ubermensch establish his own set of values without devaluing those that already exist.

What do you mean by "hollow"? They're not hollow in the sense "there's nothing under their skin but air" but rather "there is no soul to fill the body". Cancer can still kill the body like it always does. I would speculate that a girl can still move her dead body through magic, but it is very mana-costly unlike normal movement.

is not me, if that wasn't obvious enough from my previous post, big brain.

Except he never OUTRIGHT said he cares about any civilization, dumb speedwatcher. In fact, the opposite was explicitly shown when he left Earth to be destroyed by Gretchen.

And you're assuming his ends based on what, exactly? His spoken word, which is proven to be misleading? You even bring up his alien set of values, so why would preservation of other species be valuable to him?

His actions, on the other hands, would strongly suggest his ends are simply his own immortality, without concern for the fate of other civilizations.

No population on Earth = no emotional energy
It'd be useless to stay there, might as well look for another world to get energy from

Because it's basically Berserk with magical girls.

Which means his value for life extends as far as his value for fuel. He won't be diverting resources for the benefit of other civilizations, either he turns them into fuel or lets them die naturally.

His spoken word is misleading but not false. I wouldn't use his words as evidence if this wasn't established.
I brought up his alien set of values exactly because they are the preservation of the universe, no matter the cost.

That's not the topic at all. Why the fuck are you bringing up completely unrelated point now? Are you high or retarded? I'm losing patience replying to troglodytes completely incapable of comprehending basic plot points.

>If objective truth doesnt exist there is no point in ever having an argument since everything is subjective.
But user objective truth kills the very premise needed to have a discussion in both cases. If objective truth exist, to disagree would be to tell incorrect statements. Everyone would know the objectively correct answer and thus everyone would agree with it, thus no one would make an arguement.

not a question

Preservation of the universe does not mean preservation of the universe in its current form. If he creates a farm and feeds his own civilization off of it while leaving the rest to heat death, and leaves the rest to heat death, he has still preserved the universe in part. Never does he state his intent to share the energy that he extracts.

Perhaps the real Madoka Magica was the friends we made along the way.

He values them as fuel for the entire universe.
It's not unrelated. You brought up Gretchen destroying the planet, and I sad it would logically follow that since there'd be no people left on the planet (from Gretchen destroying it like you just said), he can't harvest empty planets for energy.
He never states his intent to leave some parts of the universe to heat death and not others.

I like how many Madoka fans on this board are unable to refute OP's statements so they just pretend that this entire thread is bait.
This, but unironically.

>Watching anime for philosophy

You're in the wrong medium buddy, stick to books.

I like Madoka because it's a neat, short, consistently entertaining in every aspect show.

He let Gretchen kill the planet because he didn't need humans for fuel anymore you fucking idiot.

Nagisa has a sad wish.

Technically the humans ended the world. He just gave them the option to do so with wishes. It’s not his fault.

You can blame Kyubey as much as you want but in the end he just gave the human race more power. The individual humans decided how to use it. They could have made the world better.

He doesn't value the entire universe, he values the parts of the universe that permit his own existence. He is without empathy, and yet you insist he would act to benefit others when he has no reason to, which is completely contrary to his modus operandi.

The Incubators didn’t even give them the power. The emotion / karmic destiny power resides within humans and the Incubators just allow them to harness that power but in return require a cut of the power for the universe. It’s a good deal for both parties. It’s a logical deal.

It was the study where everything was written in the abstract because it was a meta analysis

He deliberately sets them up for failure and self-destruction, because that's what he needs out of the deal.

Also reminder that the witch system was designed to be self-sustaining and was not supposed to destroy the Earth unless somebody fucked with the timeline in a very specific manner.

>without devaluing those that already exist
He doesn’t. That’s the point.

Yea. Fun fact: humans die regardless. I think being able to have a free wish for the price of fighting witches is a good deal. In the end they turn into a witch and die but regardless they’re going to eventually die. The deal Kyubey makes with them allows their potential dreams to come true and they have full rights to ask him whatever questions they might want to ask. He isn’t setting them up for failure. He’s giving them a logical deal that benefits the Incubators, humanity and the person making the wish.

>objective truth existing implies that it is known
The absolute state of relativists

Logic is always absolute truth.

Identity implies Identity

He doesn’t even monkey paw wishes. In fact he gives the wisher extra benefits to their wish they didn’t even ask for in a good positive way.

Incubators don't have emotions, which would prevent them from prioritizing themselves over other races. To them, lives and deaths are a simple numbers game. Do the thing that increases the number of lives and decreases the number of deaths. That's their value system.

This way girls who make shitty wishes still get a lot of value out of them.

The true horror of Madoka Magica is what lies beneath exactly this statement.

>Your wish is granted, however you are now part of a horrific system designed to harvest your emotional energy until you are either dead or worse
Sounds like a monkey's paw to me.
>extra benefits
Which are basically toys in a lab rat's cage.

>walls of text
You don't need to spoonfeed us unlike the redditors. Keep it as simple as possible

The issue is you're being exploited. In reality, you're being tricked/manipulated into wasting your wish so you're more useful to the ends of the incubators. Not to mention the incubators try their hardest to hide what you're truly getting yourself into. You're also suffering and dying young.

It may look like a good deal to an incubator, but for nearly every rational human being, it's a terrible deal.

Some people should know how to be concise.

>muh bluh curtain
>big brain
>you need at least 190 iq...
nice, we had our own rick and mortyfags before it was even a thing

With 190 IQ you should probably be able to understand madoka.
I have a tested IQ of 155 and a Ph.D. in Math, and I can only barely understand just how much I do not understand about it

115 here. Is there any hope for me or will true understanding of Madoka forever be beyond my reach?

Here is your new protagonist bro

Attached: 1554745708825.jpg (1080x1646, 275K)

>115 iq
You should be NGMI but maybe if you learn philosophy starting from the greeks up to Max Stirner you have a chance to be allowed a single glance upon the BIG BRAIN anime that is madoka

You’re so entitled. So what? You just expect a free for for absolutely nothing? Not money, not a new car. A free wish. Your mind is the limit. You expect that shit to be free? People in movies have died and given up everything they have just for a non guaranteed tiny chance at something like that.

And some schmucks in Saudi Arabia just apply a bit of elbow grease to a lamp and get three wishes outta the deal

He feeds and withholds information in a way that predisposes magical girls into dying when it benefits him. That is precisely setting them up for failure.

Emotionlessness and equal valuation of life is not equivalent. Furthermore, if it was truly a numbers game to him, he could have dealt with Gretchen and permitted humanity to survive and acquire more magical girls from Earth. His actions display that this is the ultimate fate of any planet he gets his hands on: extinction. That very much puts the numbers in the negative.

You’re not being tricked. Anybody can say no. Ultimately the decision is theirs to make. At some point maybe asking questions about what the price of the literal miracle being granted for them might be the humans problem. If somebody gave you ten billion dollars and that’s nothing compared to a wish don’t you think it’d be obvious to ask questions about why and what you have to do?

I think a lot of people here can’t even begin to comprehend the value of a wish.

Asking questions isn't going to help you when you're not going to get a full answer. Or when you're bleeding out.

Okay so if you’re going to die and Kyubey offers you the wish that’s possible the single best deal anybody could ever ask for. Especially in that case the deal is more than fair.

He is incompetent at his job, by his own admission he isn't doing it out of ill will towards the human race.

A choice between dying now and dying a few months or years later, with the possibly that you might be in a state of absolute psychological torment for an indefinite period and murdering dozens if not hundreds of people before your death is not the single best deal one could ask for.

A lack of ill will is not goodwill. It's not any less exploitative and it's not like he would consider other civilizations differently. The numbers of life and death don't matter, only the numbers of energy produced.

Fuck Kyubey.

Attached: 1557735811924.webm (854x480, 2.47M)

Magical girls can live a long time. Probably indefinitely if they’re good enough. Also not only would they be getting a second chance at life say if they had terminal cancer or something they’d also on top of that get a free wish. So a miracle cure and a free wish? Sounds pretty good to me. Also the psychological fear of dying is probably even if not a lot less worse than putting witches out of their mystery especially since they’re not human like at all.

>people

Witches are people the same way zombies are.

Witches are still the souls of human beings

They still feed on innocent human beings though, which means they are worth exterminating.

That's not the point. The point is they're still the same person going through incomprehensible torment.

Can they truly be considered people still if their torment causes them to endanger normal human beings?

Okay I'll spell it out plainly so you'll understand.

Being a meguca is shitty because they're meant to suffer for the benefit of their exploiters. They're manipulated and tormented until they turn into a witch, a being who only knows suffering. They'll be tormented as a witch until they're exterminated.

I'm not even the first user you were arguing with. Being a meguca is absolutely shitty. I just took issue with your humanization of the witches, implying that they should feel guilty for killing them when they used to be people, despite the fact that the witches endanger others.

Witches were humanized in-universe by the characters in both the series and Rebellion.

Are witches still human? Are megucas still human? Can a human become a nonhuman, or is there something about humanity that is fundamentally immutable?

Who fucking cares lmao

Shame it was nothing but anal.

Humanizing them doesn't mean that you're guilty for exterminating them; it's a mercy kill. That's what Madoka does as the Law of Cycles, anyways.

You don't think he devalues Judeo-Christian and Buddhist values to varying degrees?

Except the whole point of the wish is for them to eventually fall into despair because of it, and presumably the despair is bad enough to make them wish they hadn't gotten that second chance of life at all, since the goal of the system is to maximize their despair in order to harness the most energy. Incidents of magical girls dying before succumbing to despair like Mami did are aberrations and presumably are pretty rare since otherwise the system wouldn't work. Giving someone a second chance at life so you can have the chance to make them suffer as much as you possibly can before killing them for real isn't exactly doing them a favor. Also again, even if it's possible for magical girls to live a long time or indefinitely it's fair to assume it's very rare for that to happen since it would mean QB's system is working very inefficiently. It's not a defense of a horrible system to say that "well sometimes if you're lucky it won't work as well as it usually does and then it might not be quite so bad as it's designed to be."

I care lmao

They don’t have to die fast. He chooses girls with high karmic destiny to make up for that.

No, he doesn’t do it without devaluing them.
Meaning yes he does devalue them, but THAT is the point.
That is why it is called a transvaluation the values are RE valued and some are thus devalued

I’m a Madoka fan!

OP, I just want to say, you are a massive faggot for not returning to your thread.
I spent the entire day bumping this thread and provoking discussion here, just so that you could have something worth your time and a summon a tempest that DOES show you why Madoka is the greatest story ever told.
Because you DID watch Rebellion on my suggestion. I owed you that much.
However, not returning to your own thread, to see our work... that much is really really gay.

You unironically win the biggest autist of the thread award, faggot.
"Who the fuck cares"
Why are you here, autist?
Do you think your retarded smug reply makes you cool because today here and now the bully from school can't get you?
Guess what? On monday your face is going into the toilet again. Have fun, faggot. Also, consider killing yourself.

The answer is simple:
Everything.

The more I understand Madoka, the more I am convinced that the reason why God created heaven and earth, to begin with, was that he wanted to show Madoka to someone.

Madoka redeems all of creation. All of the sufferings of history were all worth it, because now at this point Madoka exists.
That is it.

The meaning of life.
Madoka.
They are the same thing.

Attached: divineHomura.jpg (826x1223, 332K)

>mfw Madoka is too deep for me

Attached: 1562421637114.jpg (4130x2340, 1.07M)

Why wouldn't the system benefit from them becoming witches as quickly as possible? If there are no new witches being made QB can't collect their energy and new magical girls have no grief seeds to feed them. And the longer they live the greater chances of them dying in battle or from some other event in which no energy is collected from them at all. No matter how much karmic destiny they may have there's no reason to think their grief becomes any stronger over time. Logically QB's system would process magical girls as quickly as it takes for their curses to grow and no longer.

You have to maintain a balance. If magical girls become witches too quickly, there's a risk that witches will greatly outnumber magical girls and kill them all off. No magical girls turning into witches = no anti-entropy energy.

dude get a fucking grip and stop being such a fag about things

Yeah. I thought the artist would make Nagisa take all three futadicks in a 4some, but, oh well.

We have no reason to think supply is limited on that end though. Especially since QB is free to pick out girls with high karmic destiny it suggests the system is already working as fast as it can, since if supply of new magical girls were an issue he could just lower his standards to girls with less potential to keep up the necessary rate.
Plus allowing magical girls to live longer lives would increase the chance that their lives would overall be happy and satisfying, which would presumably reduce the amount energy generated by their grief even if they do eventually succumb to it. Realizing that their wish was a mistake and regretting it as foolish seems to be a key point in virtually all of the girls' grief, so your idea that the wishes could be a fair trade if the girls live long enough is sort of contrary to the fundamental goals of the entire system. Everything we know about the system suggests there's no reason it would work like that, and the reasons you're suggesting are just conjecture at best.

Only girls with a sufficiently high potential will give a net energy output. If he contracted every one possible, he'd be operating at a loss, defeating the whole point. Moreover, if you let a magical girl live for a little while, you build up her hope more so that when she despairs, she falls further, which gives more energy than if they were in a state of lower hope before they fell to despair.

What would happen if a girl with high enough karmic potential wished for the death of every sentient mind in the universe besides the Incubators?

The Kyubeys choosing girls of the highest potential does not mean that they are operating at the highest efficiency, if anything its a sign of the opposite. If efficiency were so high they would be factory farming the girls, including the ones with low power because they've already harvested the ones with the highest power.

It's similar to how back in the Age of Discovery only the highest profit items were traded across oceans, while now you can make a plastic mop in China and sell it in the West for a miniscule profit because trade volumes are a lot higher.

>Only girls with a sufficiently high potential will give a net energy output
Is this stated in any official source or is it just conjecture? As far as I remember from the show QB just states that teenage girls are the source of surplus energy, not certain specific girls.
>if you let a magical girl live for a little while, you build up her hope
Certainly, but in order for the girl's second chance at life to be worth the coming suffering it would need to be years of happiness, not just a little while. Plus if the despair is even worse because of the extra time then it cancels out the increase in happiness from the longer life, so it doesn't actually make the deal any more advantageous for the girl.

You couldn't factory farm magical girls though because their value as producers of emotional energy comes from being ripped from their simple naive schoolgirl lives and being thrown into abject suffering and despair. The entire earth pretty much already IS a factory farm for magical girls, as close as they could get anyway. It's sort of beside the point though because from the density of magical girls we've already seen in the show, when expanded across the entire world's population I think it's pretty clear that QB has more than enough magical girls to work with. Sure, it's possible that QB needs to let some magical girls live longer lives so they aren't outnumbered by the number of witches, but there's no basis for thinking that's the case in the show or any other material, it's just conjecture.

>Is this stated in any official source or is it just conjecture?
No, he's talking out of his ass. Kyubey explicitly said all humans can be magic, it's just that he goes after only the most emotional girls because they're the most efficient.

Does anyone have that pic where homura is on Madoka and they’re both nekos

Free energy is not the same as net energy. Weak potential means that the free energy they produce is much less than the energy they expend as heat, thus a net loss.

The free energy comes from, in Kyubey's words "the phase change from hope to despair". Meaning ideally, they live just long enough to become enamored by their powers and become optimistic, then fall apart. Think of it like dropping a ball. The higher the cliff, the more energy on impact, but it doesn't matter how long the ball sits atop the cliff, as long as it reaches the top as opposed to falling from near the ground.

I alway fought the Madoka fags, they don't listen. They won't ever listen. they'll mutter on about shaft about the imagery like monogatari is anything beside waifu bait.

When does it start counting as indoctrination user?

Attached: play magia record.webm (854x480, 2.69M)

When we get that nebula named after Madoka and the church is properly recognized.

Attached: 300px-The_puella_magi_afterlife.jpg (300x219, 23K)

News about magia record adaptation when?

Why did they do it like that?

This is such a bad quality image OP but Homura looks so cute and adorable here!

Japanese
m.youtube.com/watch?v=kwXaK12envI

English
m.youtube.com/watch?v=j4VGJmgeyCc

German
m.youtube.com/watch?v=YMcJWQE0Bmo

For me it’s English, German and then Japanese.

Attached: 3AD17FB5-DB32-43E1-A718-F506CD83AE50.gif (320x320, 1.8M)

wrong

What’s wrong? What’s wrong?

It's wrong that I can't marry Kyouko.

Me. I’m insane in the membrane.

I like her.

It can't be helped.

Attached: DexPDOZVQAABJ3E.jpg (869x1269, 212K)

Kyoko’s love

Homura saved Madoka, but the christians could not save their Jesus. Shame on them, srsly.

Attached: 1392075331921.jpg (389x750, 149K)

penis

Kyouko is made for sex

Attached: Suggestive Kyouko (19).jpg (900x750, 64K)

Help pls

lmao you wrote all that shit I didn't read?

Attached: 1541040880550.jpg (496x600, 57K)

miki sayaCOOL

Attached: 1557335486170.png (1000x973, 482K)

right now
today is magia day and i can't find a stream anywhere

Madoka Magica should be treated like a religious text. Anything below that is just not doing it justice

The truth is never indoctrination.
Some statements are just absolutely objectively true:
Identity implies Identity,
The strong law of big numbers,
That Homura did everything exactly right.
Things like that

What's going on with this franchise anyway? I was expecting another movie after rebellion

>monogatari is anything beside waifu bait
You are wrong , monogatari is so much more, with real heartbreaking moments, it is not just waifu bait

Attached: 1562732221349.png (663x537, 194K)

I no longer feel in common with you; the very cloud which I see beneath me, the blackness and heaviness at which I laugh—that is your thunder-cloud.

Ye look aloft when ye long for exaltation; and I look downward because I am exalted.

Who among you can at the same time laugh and be exalted?

He who climbeth on the highest mountains, laugheth at all tragic plays and tragic realities.

Courageous, unconcerned, scornful, coercive—so wisdom wisheth us; she is a woman, and ever loveth only a warrior.

Ye tell me, "Life is hard to bear." But for what purpose should ye have your pride in the morning and your resignation in the evening?

Attached: victorious.png (1273x665, 925K)

I love how easy it is to go through a thread and pick out !Akemi's posts. Where he talks to himself, where he samefags, where he spams the same garbage he's been doing for seven years now. All because he's an ass hurt clown.

Attached: 0001.png (660x520, 246K)

What’s the matter? We have not seen you protecting threads from EVIL for a long time. What happened?

Help me, Homuemon.

Attached: 76286227_p0.png (3541x2508, 3.09M)

Oki, Saya

Attached: ff86caf112f9cf753b9d8042b1bd7b60.jpg (424x600, 50K)

Hahaha, it's so fucking funny watching you have a total mental break down because you're so mad and upset you can't have your personal safe space. Even when you're not being told off for shipping cancer, everyone still mocks you for pretty much everything you say.

What happened with you?
We are actually concerned. We thought for a week that you had died so I threw a giant party for all Akemis.
But here you are.
Next time write a suicide note or something.
Or tell us when you get internalised again

Madoka Magica is basically an adaptation of this spoke zarathustra

>we
What we? You are the only person who thinks your boogieman is real. Do you honestly think if you just keep repeating yourself that someone will actually listen to you?

Do you think that if you just ignore the fact that multiple mods on multiple sites have out right said you're samefagging that no one will forget it? Fuck, the mods on both mangadex and e-hentai have straight up said you have multiple accounts using the same IP.

>it’s not just waifu bait
You are right. It’s pedo bait also

I don’t have accounts on any of those sitets, ACK.
But never the less. Tell us what happened to you!

>hates Kiss-shot Acerola-orion Heart-under-blade
>not a faggot
Pick one and only one

Attached: 1538752574812.jpg (2647x3000, 447K)

Nobody hates her because she’s a girl. We hate her because she’s blonde.

I love it.

What about this?

Attached: C82D804C-58FD-49A2-BB5D-EE2AA03F9CEA.jpg (3541x2508, 698K)

read faust

She’s actually not even cute in these fanart pics. You should have used regular ones.

You could say she’s under-bladed.

Attached: E2A492B1-5155-4A3F-93A6-BA0E89D79712.gif (500x229, 592K)

These magical girls really need some boyfriends.

>OP posted a fucking iFunny image
>439 replies
Good job, fags.

It’s because Homura looks so cute in that image.

That’s true.

>Imagine actually not cutting off the ifunny label with paint before reposting it on Yea Forums

I've got a degree in Philosophy, and I can tell you that philosophy is everywhere. Sure, it might be true that finding good, explicit argumentation of principles or premises is somewhat hard outside of papers written by academics and scientists, but it is possible to find the same themes regarding morality, values, Good, the meaning of existence in works like Kant's Critique of Judgement or Heidegger's Being and Time just as much as you could spot them in anime, or even r&b music lyrics.
Now, whether or not something serves as a good example of a certain topic is completely up to whatever exactly a particular individual might have in mind.
>none of those state a new pov on phylosophy
There's been nothing new in philosophy ever since the days of the Vedas.

What is iFunny, and why should you cower in fear if it is posted?

>There has been nothing new in philosophy since vedas
>I have a degree in philosophy
You can’t be fucking serious.
What about post structuralism for example?
That concept is fucking new.
What about Marxism?
What about Nietzsche?
What about existentialism?

>Denizens of Yea Forums,
>Yea Forums
>ifunny.co
>three paragraphs of head up your ass pseudo intellectual bullshit
You put WAY too much effort into this bait. Here's another (You) for your efforts.

>Marxism
>Ayo gimme dat shit fo free
>New and philosophical

Attached: 1562106077203.png (500x281, 160K)

Nice. Now dismiss the other ones in the same way

I'm not the user who claimed to have a philosophy degree, I just hate commies.
I love Homura, though. She did nothing wrong.

Attached: 1550134999278.jpg (1400x1120, 897K)

Well, you wouldn't hate commies so much if you had any idea what Marx actually says

I recognize their philosophy as a threat to individual liberty and the American way of life. Any system designed to place importance on the many at the expense of the few is a system meant for ants and other creatures which do not possess the will and means to determine their own fate. It is completely incompatible with reality and thus devolves into being nothing but an excuse for the acquisition of state power at the expense of Freedom.
>But it wasn't REAL communism/It was never actually tried before!
What the world has seen throughout the past century is the true end result Marxist ideological cancer. To claim that mass starvation, oppression, and the infringement of the natural right to free speech and to keep and bear arms is exactly what it does. Pointing to some shitty blueprint that proposes a completely insane end result where suddenly everything is supposed to be a "Utopia" despite the insanity that precedes it does not somehow change the garbage from being exactly what the true face of leftism is.

It's basically the exact opposite of Homura, whose actions was based on her own individual will rather than the will of the "people" (corrupt politburo). Thus, if Homura did nothing wrong and that ideology is the polar opposite of Homura, then it must be wrong.

Attached: ae043f4.jpg (800x1289, 136K)

Are you a fucking god?

Is Yea Forums looking forward to Idol Meguca?

We say we aren’t but we kind of are.

Okay gentlemen, OP had at long last returned. Evidently I have some responding to do. Give me some time and I’ll read everything.

Marxism and even more so poststrucutralism are a Cancer upon our society.
But they are both new

You have never read Marx or what Marx even says, so why do you feel like you deserve to have an opinion on Marxism?
You don't understand that Marxism is a framework to understand the way things happen in the world and it is one that is reliable, one that functions and one that functions in many contexts.
Marxism is not a political ideology, communism is.
And what Communism means is in the broader sense "a society in which Marxist analysis no longer functions".

>What the world has seen throughout the past century is the true end result Marxist ideological cancer.
No, it's not.
The last century and the current one are the result of capitalism growing more and more influential and uncontested.

Road to hell and all that. Marx's biggest mistake was assuming that the dictatorship of the proletariat would dissolve itself into stateless communism.

Power never relinquishes itself. Not in all of human history. His philosophy just gave an excuse and justification to all the petty tyrants that wanted power from Stalin to PolPot.

Homura fuck yea!
You have just won the internet.
Homura is basically a personification of Libertarianism/Individualism

>conservatards in thread about a show with feminist themes
Ironic
Now take your shit back to /pol/

If you look at it like a proper structuralist, you recognize that Marxism is a structure like any other and that it serves to explain phenomena.
And it is better than most other frameworks at doing so. It functions far better than something like conservatism or fascism, simply because Marxism actually uses logic and facts to reach conclusions instead of feelings.

Homura is not individualist at all, politically speaking, she is the first and greatest comrade.

Communism is caused by capitalism?
That is what you actually claim in your post. Read it again

No, I am saying that everything that happened in the last century was caused by capitalism.
Of course this also includes two world wars and the stars aligning for the October Revolution to happen.

Homura is a National Socialist.
If ANYTHING, the closest person in History to Homura was Adolf Hitler.
Strange
Akemi Homura
A.H.
Adolf Hitler

Also, it is important to notice that the Marxist critique of capitalism is just that, a reaction to capitalist realities.
And of course, as demonstrated by in Hegelian fashion, communism could not exist without capitalism, because it is a synthesis of the capitalist system and the people rising up against it. But I understand that ideas like that are a little too complicated for internet arguments.

Well that's natural, since communism is the next step in human societal development after capitalism.

>Unlimited Bait Works!
If you guys love Urobutcher so much you could hate him, needless to say, have you watched Fate/Zero yet?
Why don't you join the serious discussion apart from cursed Madoka threads?
youtube.com/watch?v=6wyk5tGYTjY

>Apple
Come out! I know you're in there!

Attached: unlimited-bait-works.jpg (600x450, 43K)

>feminist
>taking genuine responsibilty for the entire world into your hands
pick one and only one

>>Urobuchi
FGO > Madoka
This is reality.

Attached: sample-5a467b81f922f2a48d9ae6c0a4e40ca3.jpg (850x1225, 194K)

>National Socialists pick fight with rest of the world
>This is Capitalism's fault
>Soviet Socialists oppress their populace and send all dissidents to the gulag
>This is Capitalism's fault
Okay, Tovarisch. Really working hard for those updated ration cards, huh?

See, this is why phoneposters shouldn't be allowed. Your damn phone's shitty autocorrect made you say development instead of devolvement.

Attached: 1565101264963.jpg (2002x2002, 1.02M)

>Powerful and capable women overcome oppression and stick it to the man
Stay mad bigot

Attached: 2738.jpg (444x686, 108K)

Attached: Communism_as_it_is.jpg (812x531, 112K)

I wanna talk to you!

Attached: CzGXmao.gif (500x287, 1.21M)

National Socialism is the next Step.
Communism and Marxism are just Trash that the Jews invented (did you know that Marx was a Jew btw?) in order to subvert the order in this world.
The Jews won WW2, and now everything is returning into a dull and primitive state, as it was foretold.

Madoka Magica is a redpill about this situation.
QB is the Jew, he is LITERALLY sacrificing children to moloch for energy.
Madoka was 1776 she tried to make things better in her new world(Amerika) but the (((QB))) still ended up trying to reestablishing the karmic debt system(the fed)
And so the only alternative is for Akemi Homura(A.H. - Adolf Hitler) to take power herself with her own hands. To take responsibility for HER OWN people(Magical Girls), and enslave the QB in order to prevent them from subverting everything again.

That’s the story of Madoka Magica.
The only thing that is left to show is how Homura looses the war by QB manipulating Madoka(Amerika) and her allies into attacking her. And then she will in the end loose alone in her bunker when her Reich collapses.

There is a reason why this story resonates with us subconsciously, it’s because it is the true History of the world

Good to see someone putting effort into their bait.

>to the man
There is no ””””man”””” in Madoka.
There are only whimps who act like girls.
Oh now I remember, that’s because Madoka is gender inverted.

It’s the truth, and I am dead serious about it.
You can not even deny how perfectly that narrative lines up with everything.
Madoka Magica’s Message is About how fascism is actually right.
I have been blind to it all this time

QB

QB is the Jew, he is not the man.

MagiReco-related stuff will get thread back on track.

Attached: IdolReco1.png (1024x1456, 381K)

I love that I just opened a Madoka thread, scrolled to the end, and here we are.

Attached: Ashita_no_Joe05.png (640x480, 452K)

/pol/ was a mistake

Attached: IdolReco2.png (1024x1456, 224K)

Don't be such a misogynist. Go out and talk to real women.

>National Socialists pick fight with rest of the world
Why could National Socialism emerge in the first place? Wasn't there a major economic collapse in 1929 that put Hitler into the chancellors seat?
Who is to blame for that? Pretty sure it was the capitalist system, but I might be wrong about that.

>Soviet Socialists oppress their populace and send all dissidents to the gulag
Well, what put those into power? The failure of the aristocratic system.

Both of these things are things Marx predicted. That systems like those are inherently unstable and will eventually collapse under their own weight. And would you look at that, they did.

Really, it feels like you are not interested in discourse or anything like that and you just want to virtue signal "commie bad" for some US social credit points.

But Hitler is Jew, because his father, Alois Hitler, is an illegitimate child of Baron Rothschild and Maria Schicklgruber. He got money from Jewish Bankers. He was a puppet of Rothschild.

Attached: 1134439.jpg (750x1000, 226K)

Attached: IdolReco3.png (1024x1456, 226K)

>Money
Well yes. Homura also made a contract with QB

Did you know that everyone whose name you remember is a Jew?
It's quite baffling

I did, but they have nothing to say.
That's what made me a misogynist in the first place.

Some idiot just had to make this political
Fucking stick to talking about anime

I know. It's awesome, right?

What I want to say is Adolf Hitler could never enslave Jewish Bankers.

Attached: CQUj2MoVEAAG8k9.jpg (600x849, 112K)

>implying 2D = 3D
Only cute 2D megucas can embody ideas and principles

Attached: homu blessed in darkness.jpg (600x893, 230K)

>National (((Socialism)))
All the flavors of authoritarians and all the bootlickers can hang from the same privately owned tree. To allow any State to garner all the power to itself is to open yourself to becoming a slave when—not if—the aforementioned system ceases to be benevolent, if it ever was to begin with. No governing body can be allowed to have a monopoly on violence. The right to keep and bear arms is the key to individual liberty. To infringe upon it in even the slightest fashion is to descend upon the path to eventual tyranny.

>Everything is Capitalism's fault because we don't want to take responsibility
Typical pinko

Attached: Screenshot (465).png (1366x768, 807K)

Attached: IdolReco4.png (1024x1456, 368K)

No, they aren't the only big philosophers who were Jews were Marx and Derrida.
They indecently are both responsible for major subversion.

All other philosophers were raging antisemites. Why is that?
Read up what Kirkegard, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche or best of all Luther wrote about the jews.

pretty much this

Attached: 1537801852166.png (793x794, 602K)

How is Derrida subversive exactly?
Do explain what about Derrida is so subversive, I am curious, he reads like any other late-structuralist.

>Adolf Hitler could never enslave Jewish Bankers
>Work shall set you free
Are you sure you want to deny the holocaust with a tripcode on?

Attached: IdolReco5.png (1024x1456, 375K)

Derrida is responsible for post-structuralism.
Besides Marxism itself there was nothing that caused greater damage then that

So what's so subversive about post-structuralism. Explain it to me, I wanna know.

And to prove you know what you're talking about, give a short explanation of what structuralism and post-structuralism are.

How are the communists responsible for Hitler seizing power, other than not attempting their own coup to prevent it?

>his framework for reality is "DA JOOS DID EVERYTHIMG I DONT LIKE!"
He thinks this is an actually philosophy
>He honestly thinks a show about cute magic girls being sad supports this delusion

And yet:
Homura HAS all the authority of the state that has all power to itself.
Homura established a system that IS benevolent FOREVER.
Homura HAS the monopoly on violence as Homura HAS removed the memories and powers of other magical girls, thus effectively DISARMED them.
Homura is a tyrant, that's a fact

The holocaust was to send European Jews to Israel, because the nation needs population. The dead of the holocaust did not exist except for infectious diseases.

Attached: 1454499618144.png (682x518, 600K)

Based and Redpilled.

Attached: only you pol.jpg (766x1024, 114K)

So this is how this thread dies... Thrown over the bumplimit by /pol/-tier shitposting.

>What is the appeal of Madoka Magica?
It even has the power to make pure and utter faggots like yourself compose tl;dr essays about PMMM on Yea Forums eight years later?

Attached: Kyubey.png (730x600, 235K)

OP back in town.

Calling them “representations of philosophical questions,” while accurate, is nothing more or less than what I’ve already suggested, and I feel is a very generous way of saying “one-dimensional.” I want to clarify that this is not *necessarily* a bad thing, although it usually is. After all, you can use a one-dimensional prop in a unique and interesting way that defies conventional thinking.

I disagree that Mami would go “insane” if she were to learn the greater problems in her universe... namely, because it is implied in the story of Rebellion that she must necessarily understand them by the point in time where she is already helping to free Homura from Kyubei’s grasp. With that said, I disagree with your analysis that she represents anything more than a girl who was easily manipulated at the point of signature by virtue of owing her life to the thing that saved her. If she does represent some abstract concept, you might say that she represents the virtues of either duty or necessity, but I rather doubt this.

Sayaka, while highly idealistic, can not possibly represent an abstract concept such as “idealism.” As a matter of fact, she is unhappy and eventually becomes a witch precisely because she is more than said abstract concept. Underlying her beliefs that what she is doing ought to be considered good, she also believes she her feelings ought to be reciprocated. This defies the very notion of unconditional love. It’s why she suffers so much and all but completely abandons her naive worldview once she realizes that the power to fulfill her ideals came at the cost of being able to enjoy the glamorous benefits she had envisioned for herself. She is at best chaotic neutral in her heart, but wants so badly to be lawful good that it wounds her very soul. Cont’d...

Jewish Bankers built Israel for control of the middle east. ISIL is one of satellite states of Israel for governance of the area.

Attached: 1518941.png (1500x2000, 3.08M)

structuralism means that everything exists in a concrete way, mainly that narratives are capable of explaining reality.
post-structuralism means that narratives are arbitrary and not capable of explaining reality. That there is not structure to be found.
That is why post-structuralist """art""" is degenerate, because beauty is a narrative and therefore completely arbitrary HAHA, what a wise observation.
That is why post-structuralism is BS. In the end it just destroys all narratives into complete nihilism leaving nothing left.
And then some idiots think that they can just arbitrarily make up constructs in its place, because "they are equaly valid, as everything is".

Here's the cast of the Idol Meguca. Will we got Full Idolshit?

Pink tanto no Iroha (Mocho FTW)- youtube.com/watch?v=QGb0eW08lEs

Blue Tanto no Rena (YuiKaori no Ishihara Kaori~desu!)- youtube.com/watch?v=2Sso_1gPj-s

Green Tanto no Kako (Eririn/Eri Suzuki)- youtube.com/watch?v=ZQYlu-nPbrI

Yellow Tanto no Mami (Kaori Mizuhashi, she's back)- youtube.com/watch?v=X2B7OsjoJ1c

Red Tanto no Rika (Kanae Ito)- youtube.com/watch?v=tZcbRV38hTM

Attached: IdolMami.png (800x1200, 508K)

So you agree that Akemi Homura/Adolf Hitler was right?

After several recommendations, I eagerly wanted to see Fate/Zero - but after watching 15 minutes straight of preachy talking in E01, I dumped it, didn't even finish it. I'm a patient man, but it was like watching fucking Dune or something equally as gay. And I hate Dune.

One day you must accept reality has no objective meaning, and that there is no convenient narrative that interprets all events of history for you.

Of course, that was all a very generous way of saying that Sayaka is a naive child who wants to believe she’s better than she really is, and feels taken advantage of by the contract.

Kyoko, well, I’d say you nailed her personality right on the head. She’s limited in her ability to believe in anything greater than the law of nature because of her upbringing. But if she really represented Darwinism as you’re suggesting, then she’d actually agree with Kyubei and wage war against the girls when they try to save Homura. If only the writing in this series were actually good, Kyoko would be a good character, but alas she is trapped by tropes and the concept of Darwinism is not adequately explored through her whatsoever.
QB is functionally an act-utilitarian, as I am, and I think this philosophy is represented relatively well through him. But of course, this would have to be the case, or else nobody would even begin to take this show seriously. Every major villain in any halfway-decent series needs to be written at least 50% better than any of its heroes, or the series would fall flat.
I disagree with the suggestion that Madoka represents liberalism, because she makes changes to the universe she lives in without consulting anyone. It is her own decision. You might have gotten away with suggesting that she represents “benevolence,” but even that idea is flawed in its conception, or else she would have jumped at the opportunity to become an MG, irrespective of the consequences, and we wouldn’t have the story that we were left with.
As for Homura, you might say that she represents revenge. She wants revenge against the good that she tried to do, revenge against the person who enabled her to attempt to be so good, admits in the end that she is a lesbian, and decides that she would rather destroy the legacy of her friend’s existence than go another day without fucking her. Where is this kind of evil endorsed in anything that Nietzsche ever wrote?

Yes.
And that is EXACTLY why post structuralism is complete garbage.
Only because we do not KNOW a SIMPLE narrative that explains all events of history it does not mean that it:
a) does not exist
b) can not be aproximated by existing narratives.
And the same goes for meaning.
Christian Meaning - for all its flaws - is still a better narrative then Nihilism. And infinitely so.

And there are things that are objectively good and meaningful to do. All that talk about theoretical nihilisms is all just that theoretical.

And the most damming observation is from Ted Kaczynski:
"18. Modern leftish philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftish philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e., failed, inferior). The leftist’s feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. " -the una bomber manifesto, on leftists, 18

This vanquishes post-structuralism

>Homura is evil and selfish
How can one person totally miss the point of Homura's character this much

>one-dimensional
What is your criteria for dimensionality in character?-
>I disagree that Mami would go “insane” if she were to learn the greater problems in her universe
In other words, you literally didn't watch the show.
>all but completely abandons her naive worldview
It's the opposite, her refusal to abandon ideals is what leads to her demise.

>There is no simple fairy tale to explain reality to my simplistic brain
>But we will find it some day so you're still wrong
Don't be delusional

Yeah, Hitler investigated his own descent. Homura realized she was a witch. You can take the historical fact as caricature of the movie. However, Hitler was not able to surpass Jewish Bankers like Rebellion.

At least you can join the discussion for the scene.

Attached: 39986647_p0.jpg (662x936, 120K)

Let your love to life be love to your highest hope; and let your highest hope be the highest thought of life!

Attached: Homu56.jpg (1000x1000, 524K)

>As for Homura, you might say that she represents revenge.
>destroy the legacy of her friend
>another day without fucking her
HAAAAAHAAAAAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHA
Watch Rebellion again

Best of all:
>Where is this kind of evil endorsed in anything that Nietzsche ever wrote?
In Zarathustra. He directly endorses Homura in Zarathustra.
Read it, but wait until you are 16 at least for that. It might disturb you.

I never ever said that we will find it some day.
Are you retarded?
Can you not read?

You're stuck in the mentality that there MUST be a narrative despite there not being one. You're looking for a story that you're convinced is there despite you not being able to find it. It's time to grow up, user.

>Missing Homura's character THIS badly
I have read many retarded things said about here here on Yea Forums but this takes the cake.
You REALLY have not even a shadow of a clue about rebellion.

Only because things tend to be multicausal and does NOT MEAN that there is not a distinct narrative in existence that is just too hard to grasp.

If objective truth reality exists, and reality is not defined by random rolls.

Human nature is CONSTANT.
The laws of physics are CONSTANT.
Only because a system is complex and chaotic DOES NOT MEAN it has no structure.

Intuiton is capable of seeing structure EVEN IF we can not formualte it as a distinct narrative.
THE NARRATIVE STILL EXISTS.

And the narratives that we have are APPROXIMATIONS.
And they are USEFULL.

Are you not ashamed of yourself?
Read this:

Let’s talk about those questions. “Do you treasure this world? Do you consider stability and order more important than desire?”

I do not disagree that, besides drawing attention to the question of entropy, this must be the most valuable query the series posits... and I believe the question does have some real merit when removed from the context of what is actually happening on-screen at the time it is posed. When you take the question out of context, I can see why you’d suggest that perhaps Homura does, in fact, represent some Nietzschean worldview. “Is it better to remain as a sheep, living a life of order as a slave, or is it better to strive and become the ubermensch?” That being said, when you put the question in-context, what you get is something else entirely, because the question is coming from a girl who is utterly scarred by her experiences to the point of having long ago abandoned her humanity. She even goes so far as to say that she no longer considers herself human multiple times throughout the series. Homura is, at best, severely mentally-ill, and no longer capable of rationalizing questions like this. At worst, she is pure evil, motivated by the old adage “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” Can there be any wonder as to why red rivers of blood pour out from Homura’s “Grief Seed” onto Kyubei’s white head during rebellion? This not some philosophical musing about whether there can be such a thing as “noble slavery,”— it is simply a kind of purely selfish rebellion, that all teenage girls commit all the time during their youth. It’s also why none of the other characters can sympathize with her attitude.

If you tried to sell Madoka to me as an inferior product to what you’re suggesting— a coming of age story, rather than something truly magnificent— you’d have done a much better job with your pitch. But even then, the show is only an even edgier, more well-produced, less funny version of FLCL.

Make a new thread OP

It's also a show you didn't understand.

This.
Read the whole thing, and then make a new thread.

I will put more responses in this thread, but I need a couple of hours. In-between travel and work shifts at the moment.

TL;DR of my posts — I could maybe be enticed to believe that Homura was actually Satuski Kiriyuin/ Nietzsche all along, if she’d acted even remotely similarly during the main series as she does during Rebellion. But she doesn’t, because she isn’t. She is a supremely damaged girl in heat that has had *ENOUGH* of everyone and everything... hence the title of the movie, “Rebellion.”

entropy is the most shallow thing about Madoka, it's surface of the surface level.